1 Rusty, you should watch it, you might learn something. Or are your views on terrorism and Islam so distorted that you cant countenance the idea that somebody elses views might negate yours?

2 The three part programme was a real eye opener and a few more americans ought to take the time to watch it. George Bush paints the world in such a black and white way, good v evil, but it isn't as simple as that and nowhere near as scarey.

3 Indeed the "The Power of Nightmares" programmes are indeed 'real eye openers' from which to 'learn something'. It's eye opening that the editorial chain chain at the BBC should comission, produce, and pass for transmission, such a pile of rubbish. Attempting to portray the neo-conservatives as analogous to the jihadi islamists is either hilarious or libellous, I can't decide which. Leo Strauss as an analogue for Sayed Quttub. Ludicrous. The programme also manages to hopelessly mangle much of the history of the Reagan confrontation with the USSR. Then it goes on having 'proved' the existence of a neo-con campaign to change America, to declare that for this purpose it has invented Al Qaeda as an international organisation. Anyone who knows anything about it knows Al Qaeda has always been a 'network of networks', providing services and support to like-minded local groups, and blurring into them in carrying out operations. But to deny, on this basis, that jihadi islamist terrorism exist, and at least before the recent US counter-offensive, was growing, is crazy. In short, the producers erect their OWN nightmare, the conspiracy theory of the neo-con boogymen, in order to play down real threats and problems that imperil their own dream.

4 Raving sophisticated sophistry - it's all more marxist illusionary revisionism.

5 The BBC series, from the reports about it I've read, tiptoes so closely to the line of anti-Semitism that the line might as well not exist. But the BBC attitude toward the US is well-rehearsed. Part of their problem is that like American reporters in Iraq, they don't get out to the hinterlands. BBC has correspondents in NY (mostly for the UN), in Washington, and in Hollywood. That pretty much tells it all. When they do go out of the city, it's always something "cute" on a farm, with SO of chirping crickets and lowing cattle. At least Alistair Cooke got out there for his "Letters from America" which were fair and informative.

6 Guys: Thanks for the comments, but this wasn't posted by Rusty so don't blame him. We have a technical problem in the author designation, but I've indicated in two places on the post that this was submitted by Demosophist. As to whether either I or Rusty have anything to learn here, I guess I'd ask if anyone knows what a "toff" or a "sab" are? I figure the first is probably an elitist, and the second is some derogatory racial reference to people of swarthy hue... but again, I don't really know. Beyond that, I just look at the BBC as an institutionalized version of Michael Moore squeezing out propaganda like... well, whatever squeezes out of a smallish expandable hole. "Rubbish" is too polite a term.

7 Your questions to "Ask a Brit" shall be answered! Toff - upper class (originally implying elegance and/or foppishness, but not necessarily nowadays). Sab - hunt saboteur; specifically, of fox and stag hunting on horses with hounds. Swarthiness not an issue.

8 The problem with the bbc is that they don't produce programmes which suit your view of the world. Anything that portrays the USA as anything but the saviours of the world is deemed rubbish.

9 Demosophist......lovely name. Do your parents have a special sense of humour or is it a nom de plume that you created in a moment of immense confusion? The BBC is far from perfect but to compare its current affairs programmes to the productions of Michael Moore clearly demonstrates an inability to distinguish fact from fiction. To castigate them further using execrable language makes me wonder if you have just jumped on the bandwagon with those who view anything which is remotely critical of the United States foreign policies as "America Haters" and terrorist collaborators. Presumably you have not seen the programme as is the case with John and Keith in mtn. I would suggest that you watch it. John's comment that the programme is Anti Semetic is ill informed garbage. Again being critical of Israel does not make one an anti Semite. I have lived in the States for 2 years, Chicago in fact, great place and some of the nicest people you could ever hope to meet. The only thing that really shocked me, was people's ignorance of what was going on in the world. And these people were professionals, doctors, traders lawyers policemen. But then it occured to me that American news stations gave very little coverage to what was going on in the world with the exception of CNN, and Fox,to a lesser degree. Now since 9/11 everybody seems to be an expert on all things foreign. Fortunately for me I was able to get a copy of the Daily Telegraph (a quality UK publication) and the Irish Times (a quality newspaper from Ireland, a small island west of Britain in the Atlantic for those of you who dont know where it is on a map) Why, even your good self seems to be very well informed. I just wonder where you get your news from? Mainstream media or msm as it is referred to now? Of course you do, unless you have your own people on the ground giving you the facts/stories as they happen. Or perhaps you have a Reuters terminal, maybe one from PA or do you use Bloomberg? Or do you search the net, a much cheaper alternative to the above. Regardless of where you get it, you twist it,turn it, spin it to suit your own political agenda as does the BBC or any other news organisation. You compare the BBC's output to shit, the fact is you are talking out your arse, ass if you prefer. One last thing, as a self proclaimed expert on all things foreign I would have thought a man(perhaps you are a woman, no offence intended regadless of your gender) as well informed as yourself would have known the difference between a toff and a sab. I didn't understand the remark at all in any context and a friend who is an English teacher could make head nor tail of it either, that is, neither of have a clue what you are talking about! Perhaps you would share your reasons for wanting to know the difference and also what it has to do with the current topic of debate. Best regards and apologies to Rusty for having assumed that he wrote the piece.

10 I could not have put it any better...Well said James

11 James: I have seen the programme. (Or parts at least; I periodically got too fed up with the waste of time and wandered off.) It's a pile of rubbish. I wouldn't have said it was antisemitic. Though a lot of loons peddle the "evil neo-Cons = Jooos!" crap, seems to me the programme the neo-cons as wicked, but not on the basis of their Jewishness. I'd let them off that one. But it is nonetheless a moronic piece of conspiracy-theory barely one step up from "aliens killed JFK".

12 John F.....I don't buy the neo-con conspiracy rubbish. But I do think that there is "something rotten in the state of Denmark" with regards to America's decision to invade Iraq. It's as though the invasion had been planned as part of Bush's electoral campaign. The programme does raise some serious questions about the wests foreign policy towards the middle east. Demosophist's condemnation of the programme before having viewed it and comparing it to a Michael Moore production is pure folly. Now I am just waiting for a diatribe from morons, whom I shall not mention, asking "what has Denmark got to do with it"?!!!!!!!

13 Baghdad Broadcasting Corporation=BBC

14 Good one, karl!

15 James: Though I can't see that you've said anything that isn't naked, and mostly ignorant, ad hominem, more or less on par with "blow it out your ass" spiced with a quasi-intellectual stab at irony, I'll try to respond. I understand that the BBC has made conspiracy thinking in England more or less mainstream, but that doesn't make it sane. I would have no problem with the BBC saying anything it has half a mind to say (and that's about all its thesis requires) were the outlet not government subsidized. Not only does that fact relieve it of certain market pressures that would otherwise combat an institutionalized flabbiness, but it gives their garbage undeserved and unearned credibility (not unlike the false credibility given much of the Middle Eastern government subsidized press.) The central "neocon" thesis is a pretty simple one: that expansion of the democratic franchise will make the world safer in the long run (though perhaps more volatile in the short run). I fail to see that you're even aware of an alternative, let along that you're presenting one with any responsibility. It seems to me that this leaves you with only one recourse: to spin conspiracies founded (however subtly) on political paranoia. Well, it's the opposite of wisdom, is all I'm sayin'. The opposite of Demosophia. It is the ignorance and foolishness of a spoiled elitist faction given far more credibility than their station merits. Thanks for providing the cautionary tale.

16 Demosophist... Thank you for the response, even if it has taken you a week. I was expecting something with a little meat to it, something that I could actually get my teeth into. You are right about one thing though, the BBC is a publicly funded organisation. There are pros and cons to this but to suggest that it a mouthpiece for the government is widely off the mark. The BBC has questioned the government intensively over its position on the war. The fact that it has not followed the government's line does give it some degree of credibility. Having worked in the States I can tell you that there is not one news channel in the US which comes even close to providing the kind of professional service that the BBC does. This is not one up manship, it is fact and being Australian I can assure you that I have no motive to favour one over the other. It is content and output at the end of the day. I am not aware of any personal attacks, poking a little fun at your name and tearing your arguments apart does not amount to "ad hominem". If someone refutes your argument, do not take it personally for it is the issue at stake that matters. If I read something which I deem to be bullshit, then I will let you know, such as in this case. Also, I asked you where you got your news from? But a yet you have not answered! Are you a journalist, amateur hack? Surely you should question your government's motives rather than accepting everything they tell you as verbatim. I have a little latin as well, not much but some. Perhaps we could spice things up and debate in french or German comme tu preferes! Be careful of whom you accuse of making "quasi intellectual stabs" when you put yourself forward they way you do, because believe me it wouldn't take long cutting you down to size.

17 You are right about one thing though, the BBC is a publicly funded organisation. There are pros and cons to this but to suggest that it a mouthpiece for the government is widely off the mark. I said they're a mouthpiece for the institutionalized left, not "the government," (although they are reliably "statist") to whom they're currently opposed. The fact that you don't grasp that rather obvious distinction tells me you aren't really "in the game." I am not aware of any personal attacks, poking a little fun at your name and tearing your arguments apart does not amount to "ad hominem". You haven't even addressed my arguments, let alone torn any apart. Basically what you've done is pretty much what your beloved BBC does. That is it simply effects an air of rhetorical superiority and assumes that's an argument. It's what all ancien regimes do, from the lofty perch of their fantasy world. One last thing, as a self proclaimed expert on all things foreign I would have thought a man(perhaps you are a woman, no offence intended regadless of your gender) as well informed as yourself would have known the difference between a toff and a sab. I didn't understand the remark at all in any context and a friend who is an English teacher could make head nor tail of it either, that is, neither of have a clue what you are talking about! Well, I haven't proclaimed m'self an "expert on all things foreign." But beyond that I can't parse your language, so perhaps you should consult your english teacher again. You seem to be ambiguously saying that you understand that statement (you could make head nor tail of it," whatever that means), and you also seem to think I wrote it, in spite of the fact that I make it rather clear that I'm quoting a friend. I expect what he's saying is that your run-a-the-mill leftist is both an elitist and a hypocrite about the very values that he/she loftily recommends to others. But his statement didn't make that point with nearly as much dramatic clarity as have you. Be careful of whom you accuse of making "quasi intellectual stabs" when you put yourself forward they way you do, because believe me it wouldn't take long cutting you down to size. Heh. I'm not even sure they rise to the "quasi-intellectual" level. More like quasi-arguments. I get my news from a variety of sources, right across the spectrum. The difference is that I don't give the statist sources (CBC, BBC, and some of the Arab press) as much credibility as they seem to believe they merit. And they've become so predictable that watching them is an exercise in staying awake. By virtue of Tim Groseclose's Hoover media study we know that the average mainstream US media outlet is approximately a standard deviation to the left of the average American viewer (by two different but analogous independent metrics similar to the ADA scale). This, while Fox Special Report and Drudge come out less than a half a standard deviation to the right of the average viewer. Now, that tells me that if you genuinely want to cultivate an unbiased perspective relative to an American audience you ought to be watching about twice as much Fox as CBS. And the various defamatory state medias, like the BBC, just have a certain novelty value... like watching a slow motion train wreck. But the truth is, I get more and more of my news from the internet, especially regarding what's happening "on the ground" in Iraq, where BEEB reporters never tread in any case. There are numerous "milblogs" that include both direct accounts from the field as well as coherent discussion of strategy. I often wonder how one could possibly figure out what's going on in Iraq without reading The Belmont Club. You'd obviously assume things were going to hell in a handbasket if all you saw were MSM accounts. The notion that there are a series of towns stretching to the Syrian border that might represent the supply lines of the "insurgency" would simply shock the average BEEB viewer, becaues it suggests that the Coalition is actually using a coherent strategy to militarily destroy the enemy. And we all know, by definition, that can't happen. Why history tells us that such feats haven't been possible for 2500 years, if at all. (Or was that the conquest of Afghanistan?) Have you forgotten all the ominous hand-wringing that went on prior to that invasion? Well, that's human nature, I guess. You guys are a hoot. Seriously. Now tell me again what an intellectual giant you are, compared to the rest of us meeses. I need a knee-slapper while I'm drinking my morning coffee and mate, in my neon PJs.

1 I *still* say he looks like Papa Smurf in that outfit! Did you hear he wants to be buried in Jerusalem?

2 That'll go over big.

3 I heard on the news that his ass, let alone the rest of him, will not be welcome in Jerusalem.

4 Does anyone else have the feeling that Araft is channelling Monty Python? (heard in the background....) "I'm not dead yet!" (cross commented on Wizbang - but it was too good to resist! *grin*)

5 Hey call me stupid, but this guy actually won the Nobel Peace prize in '94????? For WHAT?!

6 If he dies . . There'll be a bloodbath in Palestine! If he survives . . There'll be a bloodbath in Palestine! So what's new?

7 They now reported he's got liver failure. Won't be long now. Wonder why the press kept saying he wasn't in a coma? He's not stable, he's fucking dying.

8 Hey RUSTY AND ASSOC: We need something about the French who are presently invading a foreign country without permission from the UN. Ha, Ha. Their invasion of the Ivory Coast is Illegal. Heh, heh. Hundreds of thousands of innocent muslims are being terrorized. Ha, Ha, ho, ho. The frogs have destroyed the Ivory Coast airforce. The people are rising to fight them. Ha, ha, ha. This is an unjust war. The french had no reason to invade this country. They're only after the Cocoa which they intend to sell to French corporations so Chirac can get a cut. Ha, Ha, THIS WAR IS ILLEGAL: Vote for Kerry and he will talk to the guys with the machetes yelling kill the whites. The world is not safe because the frogs attacked these poor innocent people.Ho, ho, ha, ha, he, he. The hundreds of thousands now in the streets killing, robbing and burning are a small minority. Ha, ha, ha. Americans we must all learn froggy and get on their blogs and tell them how stupid and corrupt their leaders are. Ha, he, ho, ho. All the french being killed deserve what they get. They shouldn't be there so if their women get violated and their children and men get hacked to death its all their fault. Or so it goes. OR MAYBE IT'S BUSH'S FAULT. You can't trust them cowboy Texans. Their trying to control all the Cocoa in the world. Maybe there is a God.

9 Oh yea: I forgot. The Ivory Coast was never a threat to the frog pond.

10 LOL, Roost! Hey, what about that guy who committed suicide at Ground Zero? He was protesting Bush's re-election. His mother said he was depressed about the elections and drove from their home in GA to NYC. Guy was only 25, and was gonna get married. What a waste! In other news, I see that Iraq's declared a 60 day martial law. Bush ain't wastin' no time, is he? Rooster, go look at what Kathleen wrote on the old Ken Bigley blog. I want to ream her ass for it, but am carefully thinking what I want to say. Another one pissed off Kerry lost,. And will someone please tell me WHY Arafart won that Peace Prize????

11 What a shame. He could have died with honor saving another American's life in Iraq. I feel no pity for him. Nor do I choose to give him the 15 minutes the pitiful little shit was asking for.

12 It's about time martial law has been declared. I hope the Marines wipe Fallujah off the map. Here's a link for some recent raghead videos of their ambushes. WARNING: VERY GRAPHIC IMAGES http://www.siteinstitute.org/bin/multimedia.cgi?Category=video&Subcategory=0&sort=newest&Rank=1&Mode=List Here's another link showing how women feed their insurgent sons and husbands (don't want your insurgent son to fight on an empty stomach). http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4999736/ (click on "Inside the Insurgency"). NEW MARTIAL LAW RULE OF ENGAGEMENT: ALL PEOPLE STANDING NEAR A BOMB SITE (especially with video camera) ARE POTENTIAL SPOTTERS/DETONATORS, GUN THEM DOWN! ALL WOMEN STILL IN FALLUJAH ARE PROVIDING AID AND COMFORT TO INSURGENTS, GUN THEM DOWN! In fact, why bother invading Fallujah, just bomb it to dust. All the "innocents" have fled, leaving behind nothing but hardcore insurgents. Saturate the area with MOAB's instead of those precision bombs. Also, infiltration of Iraqi police and the Iraqi National Guard by insurgent spies is rampant. Terrorists now have police uniforms, Gulf War era "chocolate-chip" uniforms (what the ING are now wearing), and even CURRENT U.S. ARMY tri-color desert uniforms! Just recently, a high ranking Iraqi officer failed to show up for work after attending a debriefing on invasion plans for Fallujah, worrying U.S. commanders. I'm still trying find that article.

13 I wonder if the frogs know that 25% of the population of the Ivory Coast is Sunni Muslim?

14 France out of Ivory Coast now! No blood for Ivory!!

15 heheheh!!!! Arafart's wife becomes hysterical! Next thing you know, she'll claim someone poisoned his ass.

16 It's not Ivory. It's cocoa. The Ivory Coast is the world's largest exporter of Cocoa. The frogs are trying to control the hot chocolate market. It's a plot to support the terrorists by denying our soldiers chocolate bars in their MREs.

17 Laura, Arafats ass is poison! Hes been using it to speak through for the last 40 years.We all know A-rabs and toilets dont go together.Why do you think nothing grows out there!That toe rag purports to be the champion of the Palestinian people when hes done nothing but line his own pockets and those of his large extended family .He's hated just as much as he is loved by his own people.They have no real alternative leader that Israel wont liquidate any way as soon as he is elected.A case of better the devil you do know than the one you dont.

18 greyrooster The French do control the chocolate market! They have a motto in their military too,its for when your enemy is unrelenting. When the going gets too tough, and the tough get going, use your head, retreat! retreat! retreat!

19 Oh and if there are any Fench people reading this blog,just fuck off will ya! I've spent some time in your country and I know how anti American you motherfuckers are. If you dont like us so much why do you have so many Mcdonalds n shit!You want to take from us but at the same time hate us and run us down all the time!Glad you didnt come to Iraq though. Bad enough having the enemy in front of you,dont need him in your ranks too!

20 So the bastard's finally dead! I was watching Fox News when they broke in. Tell me, what was all the kissing gestures he threw out at the crowds? And why did one of the guys who was holding his hand pull back when he tried to kiss them? How can someone so evil show such affection? He was even holding up babies and children and kissing them. He always smiled too. Rest in Hell, Arafart.

1 This is funny. Everybody is out of control!! I'm going to kill that cat across the street cos it keeps shitting on my lawn!! This post has inspired me!! Hold on. Do you think I can blame the muslims for igniting my insanity? Need a response quick before I cool down and start respecting other peoples belongings.

2 Ah, too bad some of the offensive orders given off weren't coming from any of Zarqawi and his breed! Coulda gotten rid of a lot that way.

3 Muslims smell far worse than pigs. I know I've been aroung both.

4 Moral of the story: Save a pig, slaughter a muslim.

5 "Muslims smell far worse than pigs. I know I've been aroung both." "Moral of the story: Save a pig, slaughter a muslim." Wow, this is the kind of electorate that "voted" in the current president. Rusty, I love the company you keep - nothing better than having racists in your corner to defend your views, huh? Ah well, misery loves company, right? Idiots.

6 VEMON: You silly asshole. Muslim haters are racists???? Racists are people that dislike people because of their race. Get it dummy??White, Black, Asian, etc. Calling religion haters racists is typical of the gobble gook that spews from your stupid head. I hate the Islamic religion. I have good reason for hating them. 9/11 and the beheading videos are two reasons. I have many more. As usual you have no stand on anything. You're nothing. Just talk, nothing else. Piss on you.

7 (Muslim lunch), hot pile of DOG SHIT, sprinkled with sand and washed down with PIG PISS, for desert they lick eachothers assholes and daydream of sucking muhammeds cock.Fuckyou Muslim.

8 you hate the islamic religion? it doesnt sound like you know much about it you idiot september 11 isnt about islam at all its just a scapegoat for ignorant pieces of human waste such as yourself i hope you and george bush can find an arraingment in which you can both eat shit and die fuckin punk bitch!

9 first of all, islam isn't a fucking religion. it's a bunch of ignorant pig-fuckers who follow the rants of a fucking moonbat seventh century diaper sniper. fuck islam and all the subhuman muzzies that follow it.

10 Those who do not think Islam is evil are idiots.. Those who think 9/11 is not true Islam are the most stupid pigs ever. Please checkout the worldwide celebration of 9/11 among the muslims! The great clash between camel-fuckers and infidels will come in several decades. In fact we have seen a little preview in Netherlands, where Theo is the martyr of infidels. When the great clash comes, we, the infidels, should do all we can to kill the camel-fuckers! Infidels of the world, unite! Kill the camel fuckers!

11 I say Fuck Islam. This war's been going on since the very beginning. Read your fucking history dammit. Those mujahideen mutherfuckers have been trying to conquer the world ever since they first heard their message of war from that blaspheming "prophet" Muhammad. I say we put up a razorwire fence around the whole Middle East to pen those bastards up. Let them have their Islamic States, their Shari'a law, their adultery stonings and whatever else they like. But they can stay the fuck away from us and we away from them. I say we leave Iraq; let em' have a civil war. I'm sick of seeing my brothers, American soldiers, fighting and dying for bastards who don't even appreciate their sacrifice. Fuck them. Fuck of all of them.

12 I say bomb the hell out of mecca. Flatten it. We have no need for a fake belief that even the followers have no idea on the truth of its origin. Rid the world of islam !!!!

13 FUCK ALL RELIGIONS WITH ALL THEIR USELESS FUCKING GODS. MAY ALL GODS FUCK WITH DUDI AZRAN FROM THE FUCKING ISRAELI POLICE.

14 God gave us free will. And you are using it to say what you like. Use it while you can. But it will come back to you. Humans often forget they are mortal. When you die, who will you turn to? If you dont believe in a greater being then you might as well live the most of your current life! Enjoy it while you can. Whatever your religion, if your a good person, you will be rewarded. There's only one God. Who sent down different religion. You will be surprised at how many Muslims live the same life as other religions, but you dont know until you've seen it. Well, anyway, I would rather believe there is some kind of explantion for this fucked up world than to believe in nothing!

15 Fuck Islam All muslims should die FUcking Dirty motherfuckers STFU!!!!!!!!!! bitch ass mofo, being all gangsta on da internet... tell that to a real MUSLIM in his eyes!!!

16 you you you you don't see what's going on in phalsteen what israel and usa are doing & i don't wanna talk about iraq i think the real mother fuckers are israel and usa yea there's too many of people i mean from usa and another plasec they didn't found some answers about the life ... when some 1 died u saying he will be in the sky and the islam has all the answers about this...

17 Here is what i find funny about Islam/Muslims if you look at the Islamic/Muslim world every part of their lives involes the West, not thru our ("THE WEST's") doing but thru their own. Tell me Muslims what cars do you drive, planes do you fly, where do you get you Heavy Eqp and expertise from when you want to build something? who provides you with your grain for food&textiles for cloth? The West does!! All the Middle East woud be a far worse shithole than it already is if the West was not their to provide you with all you need! And we are called Infidels, We are the ones who put Men on the Moon, Split the Atom and try to work for the betterment of man, All Islam does is bitch about the West encroaching on it's borders and Ala Ala ala Ala Ala. Look at the facts you Hipocritcal Towel Heads, You say the west is to blame for all your problems but look at the borders of the Islamic World, Islam is trying to expand in every direction and in all cases it is thru Violence. look around from the Sudan to the Phillippines to Chechnia and even in the rural regions of China, all over Islam is spreading thru Violence. And it looks like the day is coming where the world is sick of Islam again just like back in the day when the Khan's laid waiste to the Middle East and Asia. Why did he do this because of Islamic stupidity just like today! Look it up,look into your history, Islam was the greatest Culture on Earth at one time, but you ruined it for yourself's by pissing off Ghengis Kahn. All he wanted to do was open a trade route with one of your Sultan's. So he sent an envoy and a Cravan to open negotiations. What did the Dumbass Sultan do he stole all the goods from the Caravan and killed or enslaved everyone in it. Ghengis was like WTF, Huh what was that for? So he sent another envoy. This time the Sultan cut off his hair and sent him back in shame. This Ghengis was incenced at, and spent the next 2 years hunting down the Sultan and laying waste to the Middle East&Arabia. Ever since then the Islamic world has been an empty void trying to fill itself. Then ya luck out and all that Oil is out there, lol what would you be without your Oil, someday we will see and all Muslims should be dreading that day, because that will be the day we are free to deal with you as we want, not how we have to because of the Oil, Look out Islam/Muslims the 2nd Crusade is approaching and this time we have many more Horses and Knights!

18 1st thing that i wanna say s im muslem and im so proud to be thx god .. cause we gotta a real life over here..and we have nothing to shame about not like u . u just running after ur desire like animals with out any kinda of roles u dont know that there s some day that u will gonna be punsh.and blame. u just living the dream that u wouldnt wanna even wake up im proud to be a muslem cause i dont wanna grow up n a family without father that choose to leave us for his desires or mother that drink all the time..what a life ha!.. u hate islam and muslems cause they have roles that make us be good people. make us be nice. u hate islam cause u wanna live ur dreams cause islam wanna mention u about god im proud to be muslem cause we have brain knew how to use it faitful to each other.care for each other so who should be shame about his life? who s the bad one now? u tell me who should be feel suck about his life now ha!.. i realy feel sorry about u . n the end.i dont know what i will gonna say more but thxgod im muslem and proud and wish for u to open ur eyes someday and see what i see. and we all gonna say who will win n the end front of god

19 What Dreams do Muslims/Islam have, other than to make the World Islamic ????? Anaconda you make it seem lke Muslims/Islam has a great culture like they are doing thigs to improve the life of man, name 1 thing that Islam has done for the world in the last 20 years ???? I cant think of any. And yur talking about our lives as if none of it happens to Muslims. Are there Alchoholic Muslims i think so, are there Adulturous Muslims i know so!! You miss the point like every Muslim, The West is not the root of your problems, It is a decadent lifestyle, and an inability to get out of the 16th century, No other Religion on the face of the planet is as violent and hipocritical as Islam is, All over the Islamic world there is no tolerance, you Bomb/destroy other peoples icons/religios symbols and have no respect for anyone else. You cry about the West and how bad it is, yet you do nothing of the Dictators in "ALL" of the Islamic countries, who give you the life you have that you hate so much and blame the West for, And so Anaconda good for you i am glad you are proud to be Muslim, only question i have for you is what do you have to be proud of? Name something for me one thing please !! Look at the Fact's Islam you are your own worst enemy!!! Quit blaming the West and clean your own house ya Tards !!!!!

20 FUCK YOU ALL MUSLIM ASSHOLES IT IS BECAUSE OF YOU CLOWNS WITH NO FUCKIN RESPECT TO LIFE THAT WE HAVE TO FLEE OUR COUNTRIES YOU PATHETIC ASSHOLES

21 we didn't attack on america till they attack on us they want the oil ...the center and damage the big force in the arabian world ... we are not terrorists ... we are not crazy .. we resist the invasion .. there is no one like to see the blood ..babies death ...forgin people go into them homes without permission ...islam is peace not as u see ... we are human ...there is crazy people wana to make this world as the jungle . thats all i can say ... and i think you have mind to think more not about the mony ...thanks for reading ali

22 you guys make it seem like all muslims are evil and terrorists... i am a muslim and i dont believe anything you say... we are not a violent religion/nation... the ppl u see gettin executed on tv and 9/11 were all done by EXTREMISTS... they try to inforce religion into what they are doing and thats not true... i believe that yes we as a nation have problemslike any other nation... what im trying to tell u is that their are muslims who dont beleive in hate and death to all americans!... we are a peaceful religion with peaceful ppl...

23 It is funny how you associate Islam and terrorists, it is funny how everyone jumps to conclusions. I understand the terrible tragedy all the Americans had to witness on 9/11, I myself am an American-Muslim I have several of my relatives in Iraq fighting for our freedom, there were also muslims that lost their life when the tragedy unfolded, the Pakistani government ( a muslim majority country) is one of America's greastest ally. The terrorists are a muslim minority who fight for their own cause and in no way or form represent all of the muslim community around the world. Their actions are condemned by the Islamic Doctrine. The Quran preaches peace "to save a life is to save mankind as whole." Jihad means "religious struggle" not be taken literally but in a spritual sense. Jihad is an internal stuggle within oneself to seperate mind body and soul. Most Arab Americans are victims of these terrorists and therefore have found there homes in America now only to have fallen victim to ignorance and nonsense hatred. Most of the American community is understanding but there are still a handful out there that have been blinded by there own hatred. If you want to believe that these terrorists represent all muslims than you must also accept the fact that the KKK represent all White Americans, its like saying Adolf Hitler represents all Germans, its like saying when Presindent Bush said to James Robinson: 'I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen... I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it. - Does this mean that this war represents all Christians all across the world, I do not think so. All I want to get across is hatred only leads hatred and the very thing that we are criticizing is what we are feeding.

24 Hello POP I would just like to say that every accomplishment up till today is not measured by a religion but by an individual. For example the car was invented not by Chiristianity, Islam, or Buddhism but by a person. Just because you are a part of the same religion as the person does not mean you are to share part in his/her accomplishment. The real question is what have you done for the betterment of humanity? Seems like you are only spreading hate.

25 Hey Ashiq, well lets see, yesterday i did my usual bi-weekly volunteer stint at the homeless shelter,and i am in the Big Brother program ( kind of like Al-Qaeda or Islamic Jihad) but without the Military training camps or "Hatefull" retoric. We just like to show the kids a good time,not teach them how to blow up themselves or others. I like to think that what i do is helping humanity, by showing compassion and a willingness to help out people in need. Very much like the "Red Cross" who helps out all over the world regardless of a persons creed,ethnicity or religion hmmmmmmm wonder if the Red Crescent does that? or do they only help out in Muslim countries ? As for Islam not being a violent Religion, i am sure that the majority of Islam does not participate activly in terrorism, but they dont exactly get enraged by it like the rest of the world. I have seen Global protests against terrorism all over the place from Brazil to Japan, yet i have never seen or heard of a protest against terrorism in the Islamic world. To me that is as good as saying you support it! And yes Ashiq things are made by individuals, that individual though has a background he may be Christian,Muslim or not be religious at all. I may be ignorant to the facts because of where i live but what has an Islamic Individual done to better the world as of late? what Islamic Individual has made a diff outside of the Islamic world? the West is far more Giving than the Islamic World is on a Global front. When Iran has an Earthquake we send help they may be an Enemy or non friend but we help anyway. Can the same be said of the Islamic World do they help others? And i dont think i am spreading hate Ashiq,i believe everything i have said is true, if not please correct me. Once again Muslims please read what i say answer the questions, dont just respond to them prove me wrong ! Time to crack another beer, Ashiq would you like one :-)

26 HOW ARE MUSLIMS PIGS ,WHEN THE WHITE RATS EAT PORK CHOPS??? FUCKING WHITE PIG!!!!!!

27 HMMMMMMM, typical Islamic answer! First off Doggy G, i think ya misread the post? Second Pork Chops and Bacon taste great !!!! you should try it sometime might cool off the Radical in ya!! Still waiting for some answers, or am i 100% right in what i say ?

28 Hey POP, Thanks for your reply. This is a great way to understand each other’s views. I want to respond to your concerns, which I reproduce below: “I may be ignorant to the facts because of where i live but what has an Islamic Individual done to better the world as of late?” One of the many notable Muslims that come to mind is His Highness The Aga Khan. Please acquaint yourself with the following website that gives you a brief information about the Aga Khan: http://www.akdn.org/about.html Also, please click on the link titled “Introduction” to learn more about the Aga Khan. One would never be able to list all of the things that he has done for humanity. Here are a few of his activities/accomplishments: -Focus Humanitarian Assistance Program (FOCUS): The Aga Khan has instituted FOCUS to “improve opportunities and living conditions, for people of all faiths and origins”. You can read about FOCUS latest activities at: http://www.akdn.org/news/focus_100105.htm Aga Khan Partnership Walk: This program is organized every year in major US cities to raise money and thereby improve the living conditions of people (Muslims and Non-Muslims alike) around the world, particularly in third-world countries. You can read about Partnership Walk at: http://www.indoamerican-news.com/houston/partnershipwalk2004.htm Then there are numerous other organizations such as Aga Khan Foundation, Aga Khan Fund For Economic Development, Aga Khan Health Services, and on and on. These programs are not just for the benefit of Muslims. They are there for all of Humanity. Muslims are not the only ones to have recognized the achievements of the Aga Khan. Countless leaders of the world, including Bill Clinton, Texas’ Governor Rick Perry, James Wolfensohn (President of the World Bank), Colin Powell, and many others have also voiced their appreciation for his efforts. This information is publicly available on the Internet for anyone who would like to read more. His Highness the Aga Khan represents the true spirit of Islam. There is a difference between ideals and realities. As an example, the ideals of the US Constitution state that “all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” This was certainly not the reality when the constitution was instituted in 1776 because slavery was widespread. Similarly, there is a difference between the ideals of Islam and the realities of Islam. Islam does not condone Terrorism, yet there are some Muslim extremists (I call them Non-Muslims because they go against the teachings of Islam) who choose to go this path. They do not represent Islam. Just as Timothy McVeigh’s actions do not represent all of Christianity, so too, the acts of Muslim extremists do not represent the faith of Islam. In reponse to your comment: “As for Islam not being a violent Religion, i am sure that the majority of Islam does not participate actively in terrorism, but they don’t exactly get enraged by it like the rest of the world. I have seen Global protests against terrorism all over the place from Brazil to Japan, yet i have never seen or heard of a protest against terrorism in the Islamic world. To me that is as good as saying you support it!” I have also seen across the world enraged-protests AGAINST this war on terror, are you implying that all the non-supporters are also terrorists? Finally, I would like to encourage ALL of the readers, not just POP, to read the following speech made by the Aga Khan in the aftermath of 911. Please find the speech at: http://www.akdn.org/news/houston_230602.html Are you sober yet?

29 Very nice Ashiq, ty for opening a dialogue !! The reason that Aga Khan may be so understanding and helpfull, is that he was raised in the West. Son of Prince Aly Khan and Princess Tajuddawlah Aly Khan, the Aga Khan was born on December 13, 1936, in Geneva. He spent his early childhood in Nairobi, Kenya, and then attended Le Rosey School in Switzerland for nine years. He graduated from Harvard University in 1959 with a BA Honors Degree in Islamic history. Also his sons were educated in the West! His elder son, Prince Rahim, who graduated from Brown University (USA) in 1995, has similar responsibilities in respect of the Imamat's economic development institutions. His younger son, Prince Hussain, who graduated from Williams College (USA) in 1997, has recently joined the Secretariat and is involved in the cultural activities of the Network. And even his titles have come from Western based leaders! The title His Highness was granted by Her Majesty the Queen of Great Britain in 1957, and His Royal Highness by His Imperial Majesty the Shah of Iran in 1959. I def agree with you that he is a good man, and is a good muslim who helps out all over but he mostly helps out only where Ismailis live Today. the Ismailis live in some twenty-five countries, mainly in West and Central Asia, Africa and the Middle East, as well as in North America and Western Europe. It does say he helps out all over, but it is mostly to help out members of the Ismailis faith. That is what i understood when i read it? Also he may be Muslim/Islamic but he was raised in the West, and got a Western education as did his sons, maybe this is why he is so generous, because of his Western background ? Once again Ashiq, ty for chatting i look forward to your responce !! P.S. I dont really like to et Drunk, just a good "Smile on my face" buzz :-)

30 Oh i forgot Ashiq, about the,I have also seen across the world enraged-protests AGAINST this war on terror, are you implying that all the non-supporters are also terrorists? Not in so many words Ashiq,i will put it this way if you are not against Terrorism that must mean you are for it. If you look at what happened to those poor children a few months back in Beslan,Russia, that is what i mean by Terrorism that is what brought me to my current frame of mind. People who looked at that incident and came away with any sort of justification for it is a Terrorist supporter in my mind and thus a Terrorist. To me if you believe in what Terrorists do you should be treated like one. Only fair if you give money to a Terror organization you are one !! "Only if you know it is a Terror Organization though", some are disguised as Aid Organizations, or Dummy companies. If someone lets known and wanted Terrorists into their house to me he is one, and supports their cause. Hope that cleared up my Opinion for ya ?

31 hmmmmmmmmmmm...hey pop i dont know what i will gona say to u but there s 1 thing. f u wonder why islam didnt do anything ?the answer s u u just came to us and take our freedom like now n iraq and phalastin.did u watch news how many iraqians and phalastinians died n one day ?i guess not..why they didnt had a good euductions ha?.. do u know why ?cause they had to go to look for another place to learn?..cause u dont left to us another safe place to go. cause u want the war cause u r coming to our home and wana take it from us.. u wana take our oil.what r u people? f u say why muslems come to us and study n our university?..that s because of YOU!!u dont left to us peace n our home. even u took our home.that s not enough for u no..u want to kill us.what the life u gave it to us .u THE WEST..u just gave us bad things to learn did u know what happend n ABO GREB.WHAT U had done to that men and women?. u dont want us be n safe be n peace what we had done for u.to do all this bad things we r the muslems r stronger than u do u know why?..not because of the power of the technology no..but because of the power of God that make us be better than u...heh ANOTHER THING that i want to thank u ASHIQ ALI about ur comment.and god pless u. and INSHALLAH INSHALLAH we will gona win n the end n the biggest examination

32 Once again blaming the West Whole Hearted, and not looking at the facts !! yes the USA is in Iraq, but how did they get into Iraq, and why are they still there ? As i recall the USA has been a Guest on behalf of Arabian Governments/Countries like Kuwait,Saudi Arabia,Qatar ect ect there is a reason the West is there! 1) Would be the fact that for Decades "NO" one in the Islamic World did anything to stop So Damn Insane (Saddam Hussain) from invading his Neighbors, and the USA is one of the people to blame they helped him for years, because the Enemy of my Enemy is my friend and he was fighting against Iran. But as soon as he invaided Kuwait regardless of Oil who got him out? It took the Western powers to fix an Arabian problem. I dont believe we should be in the Mid East/Arabia, it is only because of the Oil that we are there, that is a fact. But you complain of US Troops killing civilians, yes that does happen but you have to believe,we unlike Terrorists do not intentionaly target civilians we dont. Now i wonder who has killed more Iraqi's? The Terrorists and their bombings ( they take out many Civilians every time they bomb something) Or US troops who respond to being fired on. And lets not forget that Terrorist's use Civilians as human shields,they will shoot at US troops from a building full of Civilians and when the US shoots back Civilians are killed. They also "HIDE" in Mosques,wich we have been more than patient in respecting Islams Religious Icons by not destroying them. And it looks like the VAST Majority of Iraq wants the US there or else there would be much more damage done to US forces. Try complaining about Muslims killing muslims, that is what is causing most of the casualties in Iraq. And i dont think you can blame the US for Isreal killing Palestinians, sure we give them money and Eqp, but the Arabic world gets most of its weapons and eqp from China/N.Korea and Russia i am not about to Blame those countries for having their weapons used to kill US/Coalition troops. And Anaconda get real m8, your Powerfull God has not helped out Muslims in many many a Decade, instead of asking him to "KILL THE INFIDELS" ya might want to try asking him to replace some of that Sand with Water !! Or to replace all of your Dictators with a Democratic Governing System much like the one your Powerfull God is letting us install in Iraq !! See Anaconda to me Your God isn't exactly stoping us from doing what we want if anything he let us sweep aside the most powerfull army in the region in a matter of weeks. I think he is sending you and other Muslims a message. The message is you have lost your ways, and now i am punishing you!! And as for the Education thing lol it does not take much to set up a decent college, the Reason most of the Islamic Worlds professionals go to school in the West is because we allow things to be studied that Islam does not we have no restrictions we welcome all new knowledge, We even encourage our Women to Read !!!! Give it up Anaconda if God is all your hopes hang on you have already lost, Seeing is believing and i see the Islamic World changing as we want it to because "GOD" all of em are on our side.

33 well..pop u seems like u had a real close mind so..i wil not bother myself for u and weasting my time for YA! AND BELEAVE me that u will gonna be sorry about every word that u talkin about god and we all gonna watch that..smarty!! beleave me..im realy feel sorry about u u seems u hadnt any idea about islam or the history of islamic reliogn or u hadnt even read the qoran.so why i should care about someone like u and 1 another thing: now it s ur life.live it us u want to live it and we the MUSLEMS will gonna have our real life n the end GOOD BYE

34 Nope i dont have a closed mind at all, i am from the West !!! I am simply responding to your post's, its just my Opinion/View of things,take it with a grain of salt. Try Debating the Opinions/Views in my posts, if you think i am wrong tell me why, give me some substance!! That is what these post's are all about the clashing of "Cultures" and "Ideals" I welcome your responce's !!! Keep them coming. It truly is better that we fight with words, instead of weapons! Besides we all love a good argument !!

35 Hey Pop, I definitely agree with you that we should resolve our differences through dialog, rather than resort to violence. I enjoy posting my views on this site and derive equal pleasure in reading some of the readers’ responses. So, here I find myself writing yet another post: I think it would be incorrect to say that the Aga Khan is a good man because he was brought up and educated in the Western World. Western culture alone, or any culture for that matter, does not necessarily make a person good or bad. The Western World, without question, is a global human asset in that it promotes diversity and enjoys pluralist society where minorities are welcome. Everyone is allowed to move forward in an equitable manner. The Aga Khan has a deep appreciation for such diversity and pluralism. However, the West also permits consumption of Alcohol and other habits which are damaging to one’s health. I acknowledge that some Muslims do in fact indulge in these activities, which are against the teachings of Islam. The Aga Khan, having being raised in the Western Culture, could have very easily succumb to such activities. But did he? No. On the contrary, his value systems, which he derives from his Faith, allow him to make wise judgments and refrain from damaging activities. (Please note that I’m not saying that I despise the Western World.) I think he has established noble institutions such as the Aga Khan Fund (AKF) and FOCUS Humanitarian Assistance not because he was brought up in the Western World, but because his faith teaches him to respect the sanctity of the human life. Caring for the poor and the needy is one of most fundamental principles of Islam. If western education automatically made a person just, then ALL of the educated people in the Western World would be kind and generous. I hope you would concur with me that this is certainly not the case. I would also like to comment on the following remark: “And as for the Education thing lol it does not take much to set up a decent college, the Reason most of the Islamic Worlds professionals go to school in the West is because we allow things to be studied that Islam does not we have no restrictions we welcome all new knowledge, We even encourage our Women to Read !!!!” I don’t think there’s dichotomy between Islam and acquisition of knowledge. In fact, the Quran encourages the pursuit of knowledge. One of the first verses revealed to Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) were the following: [96:1-5] “Read! In the name of your Lord who created - Created the human from something which clings. Read! And your Lord is Most Bountiful - He who taught (the use of) the Pen, Taught the human that which he knew not.” There are plenty of other references in the Quran that promote knowledge. And the pursuit of knowledge is not restricted to men. Does Islam or the Quran discourage women to read and obtain education? If you think so, please direct me to a source (an authoritative one) that articulates such views. If Islam discourages women to get education, then why are so many women studying at AKU (I strongly encourage you to visit www.aku.edu), a prominent university in Pakistan? (Coincidentally, this institution, too, was established by the Aga Khan.) It is true that some Muslim nations adopt extremist views and prohibit women from getting education. I would like to re-emphasize that such practices are not the ideals of Islam. They are against the teachings of Islam.

36 Bravo Ashiq !!!!! Very Very Very nice! Will respond when i get home, weeeeeeee "DIALOGUE" :-)

37 fuck all american and stupid jews. Let jesus eats dog shit... stupid and bloody fool jesus christ and fuckin' jews. u r all like rats.

38 "LOL" Anti-American who pissed in your Cereal this morning, funny how are we all like rats ?? Your the one's who Breed like em and they are on the Menu in some Islamic Countries i believe? And funny isn't it A-A how a Bunch of Rats out do you on a daily basis !! I guess that makes you "Rat Crap". Dont be Angry at America A-A be Angry at all of your Dictators, try getting up off your arse and changing things, you might find out America is the least of your Problems!! "Hehe" making fun of Jew's and Americans hahahahaha Look at the 7 days War A-A Egypt/Syria/Jordan/Iraq/ and their Allies outnumbered the "JEW'S" like 7-1 in odds hahahah and they were the ones who were swept aside by "Civilian Soldiers" in "7 DAYS" and yeah F Jesus, F him,Moses, Abraham, Allah all of em except Budda he's cool!! So are you only Anti-American and if so why? Hey Ashiq, i hope you are in good health, i agree with ya Ashiq that being raised Western does not make you a good person at all, it does however make you a more open minded and it also makes you more Diverse, because the West is more Diverse. In Western Countries we have our Racial problems same as anyplace else ( I.E, Iraq and the 3 main cultures there) but there is really very little Religious or Racial hatred towards Muslims, like there is in the Islamic World towards Westeners. I suppose that is why so many more Muslims live outside of the Islamic World as opposed to Westerners living in the Islamic World, we are more Tollerant and open to individuals of all Diversities. Example would be,i bet there are more Muslims living in England than all the Westeners living in the Islamic World combined? Why is this? Quality of Living perhaps or Family,but i bet it is mostly to do with Tolerance, Muslims do not feel threatened in Western Countries. On the Other hand the vast ammount of Westeners who live in the Islamic World are there to Work, no one else really feels safe. Westeners all over the Islamic World have been attacked and killed why? most are not even Soldiers!! ( Example)> The Terrorist attack a couple years ago near Luxor,Egypt on a Tour Bus full of Civilians,we in the West hear of these sort of attacks on an almost daily basis. Now Ashiq, can you tell me of one incident you have hear about where something similar has happened to Muslims outside of the Islamic World? that is my Argument that is why i am so Angry at Islam/Muslims. We in the West treat Muslims much much better than Muslims treat Westeners. And we ( The Westeners) dont really know why Muslims are so Angry at us ?? Please help me understand your view Ashiq, help me understand why Islam has such a problem with the West, when as a whole we are so good to Muslims. I mean could you Imagine if we had Radicals like the ones in the Islamic world? I mean there are "THOUSANDS" of Mosques in the Western World, and you never hear of them being Attacked or Burned down or Muslims being shot dead outside of them, but in the Islamic World it happens to Westeners on a daily basis, Churches are bombed or attacked Christians/Jew's are shot dead outside of them ect ect. Do you see what i am trying to say Ashiq, isn't it the West that has a reason to be Angry at Islam and not the other way around? I look forward to your responce Ashiq....................Cheers m8 !!!! ( Sheesh, my fingers hurt) :-)

39 Hello anti-american, if you are a Muslim, all I would like to say to you is that Jesus and Moses are both our beloved Prophets as is acknowledged in the Holy Quran itself. If you are a devoted follower of the faith I hope you refrain from demoralizing our Prophets (may peace be upon them). Like I have said before anger only feeds anger and "an eye for an eye leaves both men blind"

40 Hello Pop it's pleasure like always to hear from you, I will answer you when I have a little more time on my hands; until than Good Day.

41 No Problem Ashiq !!, Take yur time, i have a feeling Anti-American is Anaconda hehe ?

42 Extremists and ignorant are in all faiths & cultures. some hidden some obvious. But if you think about it, all the 3 great religions, Islam & Christianity and Judaism, believe in One and only God. All ask us to be good to one another. Life is sacred in all of them. I know In Islam, ones who takes a life is like ones whom took all living things and his punishment is the greatest of all punishments in God’s words. The problem is not with any of the religions, it’s with humans and how they interpret there religious believes. Remember that faithful Christian who killed him self among few hundreds more back in 1992 in TX. Or how many Palestinians are shot every day by untrue Jews (mentioned on media all around the world but not on American media). or what has happen in the children school in Russia few months back. Crazy people are everywhere, every religion and in every culture. Can’t we all love one another and respect one another’s believe?? God bless us all with his mercy and gaudiness. For those of you who are not Muslims, our greeting is “Al-Salam Alykum” which means “Peace”.

43 Hello Islam, i have a few probs with what you say,first off yes there are extremists in every religion, but "Islam" is the only one that i know of that teaches there young to strap on "Bombs" and to kill "Civilians",dont they believe that if they die in an Islamic cause they go to "Heaven" and get 30 "Virgins"? Also the Jews do kill innocent civilians,but most of the casualties are caused by targeted assinations on "PLO" leadership. Who intentionally move around in large crowds of people. On the other hand the "PLO" and other groups just like them have no problems intentionally targeting civilians, wether it be "Suicide" bombers, or Rockets launched at random into Israel, or someone ambushing and killing a Jewish person walking down the street ( I believe this has even happened to a Mother and her children). And all of the "Suicide" bombers are young, you never hear of the Old/Middle Aged dying for the cause, to us in the "West" that shows a state of brainwashing your youth!! As for the "Branch Dividians" in Waco,Texas they were of a radical Cristian faith, but that was a "CULT" more than a Church. David Koresh (spelling?) thought he was Jesus reborn or something, and it was a horrible thing that happened to those people there. I believe the "US.GOV" had more to do with the deaths of those people than they did. David Koresh,was a nut-job but the way the FBI/ATF handeled the case was a travesty. And what happened in Beslan,Russia was Islamic Fundamentalism at it's worst!! that incident is what brought me to my current frame of mind against Islam!! And yes "Americans" can get all sorts of news, we have much more choice than the "State" sponsered media in the Islamic World. We hear about Palestinians getting killed by Jews all the time, almost as much as we hear about Jews getting killed by Palestinians. We hear both sides but all we ever really see is Israel making consessions and the Palestinians never happy, look at the "Oslo Accords" Isreal followed them, the PLO did not. And i do not blame Israel for anything,"Muslims" have been saying "KILL ALL THE JEWS" for decades, and have fought wars(that they should have won)against Israel that they always lose. So it goes both ways,dont expect to not be killed if you are constantly threatning to kill!!!! Seriously Muslims, i hope i am giving you something to think about !!!!

44 You are not being fare at all Pop. With all respect, talking to you MAY BE like discussing which came first the egg or the chicken. In any case Lets talk facts as you wish. Is Hitler a good man?? How many did he kill and how many died because of him?? You sound to me like a Jewish person, and you may know how bad Hitler was, not only for Jews, but for all humanity. I know for a fact that He is not a Muslim and he is not an angel also. He lived in the WEST, and was a CHRISTIAN. Does Oklahoma ring a bell??? Who did it?? How many People died in the 1st World War??? Who caused it? what about the 2nd world ware? and where?? In the Middle East? or was it in the heart of the WEST?? What about the Crusades in the middle centuries. Did the Muslims joined forced and moved to Europe to invade it??, do you have any idea or facts about how many did they kill and why because of there HOLY Pops. If you read about how many died in the history of humanity from Prophet Adam, the first man on earth till now, you will find out that most people died because and in the WEST. Did you know that the creators of the State of Israel were on the Terrorist lists of almost all European Nations because of all the killings they have done in the early 1900s, they were then terrorists, and now they are heroes… WOW?? And if you go back to history, While the East was in its top, the western countries were living like animals. In Europe a known practice for them not to shower or take paths (a queen of England used to shower once every 3 months). that’s why the WEST created perfumes to hide the stinky smell they were producing for not cleaning them self. To move from Europe to the Americas, how many American Indians were slaughtered?? Was it by Muslims?? And who celebrate the person of who did and caused all these killings “Christopher Columbus” . Don’t tell me now that he is a Muslim too. What about Japan being bumped with 2 Nuclear bumps (See how much love Westerners have for human life?? Please don’t tell me because of Pearl-Harper). Do you have any idea who created 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 or Algebra, Should I remind you that the numbers you use (1,2,3, ... ) are Arabic? Algebra, Algorithm, and many other mathematical words are also Arabic. Have you ever heard of Ibn Sina and what he did in the medical science and were his books are being thought till now?? Do you know what the Indians (eastern Indians), Chinese, Japanese, Persians, Arabs and many other civilizations did to humanity in the early times in regard to Math, Medicine, Astronomy, Chemistry and in many other fields of knowledge. And because of these old Civilizations the west used this knowledge well and went to the moon and beyond. I personally and all sane people would agree with me that it will not be fare to blame God (same God for Muslims, Christians and Jews) for what Hitler did. Or what has Sharon did in Lebanon in 82 and beyond. Or for what has happen in the Americas for the Indians, or both world wars, or for all the killings of all victims people in the world, wither they are in Iraq, World Trade Center, Russia or TX-USA, Chechnya, Sudan, West Bank. But blame humans. Blame your self, Blame your closed mind. Blame Media. Blame governments, blame personal interests, and blame corruption. Blame gangs. Blame terrorists. We, Muslims are in a deep sleep and need to wake up and smell the roses. We have been sleeping for a very long time. Much has passed us. When we were awake we passed everyone in every direction. Its time to wake up Muslims. Its time to join our European neighbors and make earth a better place for everyone. God is good. God is Great. Know that the God Muslims pray for is the one and only God and is the same God you pray for if you are a good Jew or a good Christian. Pop, I hope you don’t mind me calling you Ignorant. It came out of love for you. I wish you well! READ. Go to the library and Read what is Islam. Know that Osama is NOT Islam.

45 I dont see why you are all bitching about something you dont understand. When u judge something you dont understand its makes u pretty fuckin ignorant. But what to expect from typical americans huh? Why dont you americans look at ur past, and how u killed all the native americans for THEIR LAND and how u in slaved the african americans and lynched them just because they where not white. 9/11 is old now, and had nothing to do with Islam. The ppl who pulled it off, just happened to follow islam, that dosent mean all muslims are like that. They made ass's out of all muslims. You fuckin dicks who keep bitching.

46 Not all americans, but the ones bitching(which is many) are weak, complaining about 9/11. I mean look at all the suffering the american government has casued all over the world. Or do u even know?...probably not...u americans should look in real history books, unbiased history books, and learn your lessons...trust me u will change your ways and thoughts...ha! but for the mean time keep selling ur 9/11 t-shirts and and other 9/11 apparel, make lots of feel good movies and capitalize on 9/11 while u can...i mean thats what u guys seem to be so good at....use it all up use everyone. peace

47 "LOL" here we go again ok where to begin, the discussion we are having is about "Todays current event's. Sure you can use history to show examples of past faults and errors, but this is not a who is worse in history debate. I give examples of why i am pissed off, i have yet to see many examples countering my points!! Islam, i am not Jewish, i was born into the Church of England but i am not a religious person. So i do not support any side or faith, i just say it as i see it. I Agree with you the USA is not perfect,and i am in opposition to the current government and it's policies. Sure people from all over the World have done horrible things not just Westeners, but everyone!!! But my argument is that Islam is not a tolerant religion, i have given you my examples, still waiting to see something that says it is wrong or misguided. Another example for you Islam/Bahamut/Martin you talked about the USA and slavery, yes they had slavery but it was abolished, I know their are still slave markets and slavery in the Islamic world, And yes "Islam" for centuries Muslims tried to invade Europe,talk to the people in the Balkans and Greece about it!! Also look at the topic to this post, did the people who killed the pigs, give the owners money for them? are you saying that since Muslims dont eat pork that this act was ok, that is my argument its about "TOLERANCE" and the lack of it that i see in the Islamic World!!!!! I dont think i am the Ignorant one fellas, i am the one listing facts answering/asking questions and not using Rhetoric or flying off into a Tantrum,because we all know if anyone dares to question Islam,Muslims usually see it as an attack and lose sight of the argument/debate and mostly just go on the offensive.

48 Ur right Pop, BUT have u read the first few post comments,and how they degraded a life style many ppl including myself follow. I was born and rasied in america, i live in Louisiana. My point was im not going to sit here and let these ppl blast my religion, its almost like, someone coming into ur home and slapping ur mother in the face, and im sure if that happened anyone would get on the defence. I was wrong when i blasted "American" because slavery and the rest was in the past and the ppl of today had nothing to do with that, as follows with the Muslims envading Europe, Muslims today had nothing to do with that. Yet the ones who are killing and killed those pigs, make the rest of us (muslims) look bad, Like the catholic church and the ones who molested those children. Because one person or persons fucked up dosent mean all the rest are the same. Just because 9/11 happened dosent mean all Muslims where happy that day. Those ppl make us look bad. But as we seem ppl are VERY quick to point the finger, more so during war time. But for that i'll continue pointing my finger at Bush. Im not trying to jump on a band wagon, but the simple shit i see that he's done,""correct me if im wrong"" Osama attacks america, We go after Sadam, to liberate the ppl under his law. While just 90 miles south of america is Cuba. Castro is no different, why dont we save them.Is it cause their not suffering enough? or is there something much deeper than that?Fuck while we're at it why dont we back of send more troops to help NATO in East Africa. Those tribes are still killing each other while the ones in the middle still starve. But again those are bad muslims making us look bad. Damn, i went way off the subject.

49 Ok, i see what you are saying (dont know if this will sound better or worse,lol)but i am not attacking Islam at all.I am just not a "Religious" person,this does not mean that i am not a "Spiritual" person,i am just not for Organized religion, but that is for another debate. In anycase to me it is more of an "Islamic" cultural problem,than a problem with the "Religion" of "Islam". As i have stated in previous posts, i dont understand the how so many young people in the "Islamic Culture" kill themselves on behalf of their religion/beliefs and why the Older generation does nothing to stop it, in fact they incourage it and even teach it. I believe in Saudi Arabia among others, they have schools called "Madras"(spelling?)that teaches quite a bit of Intolerance as well as the whole you get 30 virgins if you die for Islam type stuff. To me growing up in the West it is so hard to fathom, why people are so willing to give up their lives? In the West we believe life is precious and that it should not be thrown away so easily(even though it may not seem so some times). To me it seems the afterlife is more important to Muslims than the hear&now. As for Castro, lol he is a tricky son of a gun!!! I would not be surprised if he kept 1 or 2 of those Russian nukes from the 60's as a trump card against the US, and if he did you know he let em know about it! Also rumor has it that Cuba may/may not,have some nasty WMD's. But we all know how to take inteligance nowadays right!!! ( "Cough"-Iraq) And yes it sickens me that the UN/Nato/World Community-G8,will go to War/support war over a tiny mideast country like Kuwait because of Money/Oil. While letting "HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS" of people die in a single conflict like the "Rwandan,Genocide". Mostly because of the color of their skin, we should all be sad about things like that all of us, because no one, not Christian power base's or Jewish or Muslim,even non-religious base's,no one did anything to stop it.

50 The thing about willing to die for something you STRONGLY believe in. Thats why Muslims over there do what they do. When you grow up in a house that hates a country with all its heart,and the normal supper talk is bombing or killing americans. Thats like breeding a killing machine. teaching that to a child as he/she grows only makes it that more powerful to them. They do it because in their heart they believe it is right. I blame them but at the same time I dont, its what they are being brainwashed with. Its basicly all they know, and to a Muslim its not so much as the afterlife. It just obeying what Allah tells us to do. If you love someone with all your heart your going to do things they ask you to do, even if you dont like, ur stil going to do it, to show them love and respect. The older generation is the same as the new. Its what they where told as a child and it is all they know, so they teach it to their children and so forth. It will most likly never become a broken cycle. But us, (the good) ones all we can do is teach our children, to forgive your enemies, and try and work together to better support one another. Untill then theres going to be those who are going to die and those who are already dead, it will be a long journey, but as they say "every journey begins with a single step".

51 Ok,ummm where to begin, Why do people in Islamic Countries hate the West so much? ( please include examples!!)And i find it very disturbing that families sit around the dinner table and discuss the best way to martyr their children. And it seems to be the cowardly adults who are feeding hate to their children, they never martyered themselves for Islam, they need their kids to do it,i guess Allah did not tell them to do it? And i think there is so much hate towards the West in the Islamic World, because of the "State run Media" people in the Islamic World get told what their Dictatorships want to tell them,unless you have a computer or say the BBC, i dont think you would be getting much truth, just Propaganda if you will. As for Allah telling people stuff that always makes me laugh, Christians and Jews do the same thing!! All Religions were created by man. none of the Gods out there have every really spoke to anyone( though some will say God speaks to individuals) these same people will also kill on behalf of their God, do you really think any God would tell anyone to kill people?? It is just an ancient excuse used by people who have no other reason to kill people other than their Religious beliefs. Ty Bahamut for proving the Intolerance of Islam for us as well as the fact that we are not responsible for creating these monsters, but it is Islamic culture that continues to breed them, thru Ignorance and Intollerance.

52 Not all muslims are terrorists? However, 100% of terrorists are muslim. Death to all muslims. May their dead cold bodies be wrapped in pig skin and buried face down, so that according to their filthy religion, their souls go straight to hell. Burn their mosques and kill them all. You wanna reach out and touch your god ala, you muslim pig? Then stick your finger up your asshole, because that's where your ala exists. Attila the Hun did it the right way. He killed and impaled so many muslims that an army of muslims who saw this described it as a literal forest as far as you could see of impaled muslim pigs. They were so horrified, and full of fear that they quickly retreated back to their sand dunes, and camel fucking orgies. I love this quote by Ann Coulter. "Invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them all to Christianity." -Ann Coulter

53 "COUGH" wow rather dusty in here!!!!! Guess ya stumped em Rob?? Maybe you were a little to radical and they agree with you lol? Hehe,not all Muslims are Terrorists but 100% of Terrorists are Muslims, never really thought about that but wow your right!! And sheesh Ann what are you smoking, all we would have if we converted Islam to Christianity, is a Bunch of Christian Suicide bombers who would feel bad after they blew themselves up!

54 It doesnt look like useful posts that everyone is posting here ... Muslims are this ... christans are that ... yeah then ... after all these posts what you would get .. peace of mind .. or just putting out ur feelings .. for the muslims (and am proud to be).. am sorry to say .. most of the things that muslims do these days doesnt belong to Islams teachings ... so fix your selfs before to talk about others religions .. And for the christans .. tell me where its writing in your bible that you can sleep with several womens everyday ... and thats whats happening in Europe as I can see, and think what are you doing in your normal days that goes with your relegion .. and how many mistakes you do and you even dont think about it ... so ... PLEASE NO ONE OF YOU GUYS IN A POSITION TO TALK ABOUT OTHERS RELIGION ... because you are simply IGNORANT about your Religion teachings ..

55 Muslems, you got your religion from your parants and you had only choice to accept it or to die. You are slaves of the past- your ancestors were converted to islam by the swords of aurangzeb or some bastard like him. Your grand grand ... grand mothers where raped by the hordes of arabs or turks. They become muslim just to survive. If allah god who is the devil? fuck mohammad, the bustard!!! curse allah the spirit of satan!!! may God curse all fucking jihadis forever. Arabia will be destroed, all for the sins of muslems. The Earth will not stand the bastrds, it will swallow them all. You the muslems, flush your fucking koran in the toilet. Show that your are still human, not the slaves

56 here we go back to round one, more islam bashing, and yet they call themselves followers of "the one true God almighty." but if this is how most christians save souls in their God's name then id rather sit side by side with satan and follow him, if this is how you teach others in "Gods way" I guess its cool now days to hate the muslims, and if sept 11 never happened no one would pay any mind to islam. Rob here is quick to hate and not understand, im guessing his a strong and fourth going christian white male.

57 oh and trishti i wasnt born a muslim.most of my family are baptis. and ur one to be talking about "the past" as i said before, wasnt most the Native Americans killed in the name of the christian God, but that was before the white man quite literly stole their land while they raped their women and murdered thousands in mass numbers, but that was in the name of God wasnt it? sweep ur pourch before u try and sweep mine.

58 look at what these god damn fucking religions have done! so many lives wasted on lies!! can't anyone open their eye's and see there is no god! there is no such thing as god and jesus and these saviors! there has been enough death and war because of a belief people want to keep because they think their god will save them; the truth is THERE IS NO FUCKING GOD WHO WILL SAVE YOUR SORRY ASS WHEN THERE IS A GUN POINTED AT YOUR HEAD!!!!

59 Hey "bahamut" sheesh talk about ignorance!! Man get yur head out of yur arse m8 !! Stop jumping to conclusions about people,Rob may not even be religious, but you jump to the conclusion he is a "White Christian Male's", why because he is of differing opinion? Or just maybe people other than "White Christian Males" are just as upset with the current state of Islam as the rest of us are? And come on bahamut, you want to talk about the past and how horrible the US treated Native Americans, yes i agree it was horrible, an entire people was almost wiped out, but dont forget Indian Tribes fought and wiped out Indian Tribes as well. Today Native American culture is alive and well in this country, not saying all is well but Amends have been offered and both parties are trying to make the best of a tragic situation that can never be changed. Now Islam/Muslims are just as immoral when it comes to cultural genocide, as the West has been. In fact even longer it is a much older Culture. How many Peoples/Cultures has Islam destroyed or enslaved? A point could be made that it never stoped and is still going on to this day. the Islamic World is one of the biggest Slave Markets on the Planet, i believe Saudi Arabia leads the world in the "Child Sex Trade Trade", and in every corner on every border of the Islamic world Muslims are killing others!!!!!! From Africa to the Phillippines, from Russia to India ect.ect.ect. So you see bahamut, it is not just "White Christian Males" who have a problem with Islam it appears most of Islams neighbors/the Modern World,does as well. See a pattern yet Muslims, you are the aggressors you are the intollerant ones, you brainwash your youth to hate/kill and that life on this planet does not matter. You need to focus and yourselves and your Islamic Dictators!!!! I only hope Islam can wake up soon before it is to late before another culture is lost !!

60 Pop you need to pop your head out of your ass for a moment and see how much these muslim countries have contributed in the effort to fight terrorism. Pakistan has arrested many wanted terrorists and have recently handed over top Al- Qaeda leaders. Militants in Afganistan are leading the search there and a recent study by many top "American Universities" have reported that over 100,000 innocent civilians have been killed not by terrorists but by the Americans in this effort in Iraq not mentioning the countless others that have voulantarily sacraficed their life just like the American soliders. So before you go off running your mouth and posting your bias untrue facts on this message board (hint: Saudi Arabia being the child sex trade capital of the world which totally false) try going off and enlisting in the army rather than just pushing your views on others and hiding behind your computer. You are so anti-muslim and pro-war that you are forgetting that you are begining to kind of sound like some of these stubborn terrorists who only know hatred. You are criticizing these "non-muslim" terrorists who are teaching these poor little children to hate and blow themselves up while you are doing pretty much the same crap here, you talk about brian-washing while you are here trying to do the same thing here I really do not see the difference between you or them. Christ even though he was persecuted he prayed for the forgiveness of his murderers and left he rest to GOD. Pop I will not be coming back to answer to your response because you are just too stubborn to admit you're wrong for spreading and demoralizing others. I just hope that you come around and see what you are doing before its too late. God Bless everyone and to those who do not believe in GOD I hope you find peace and happiness regardless.

61 "HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" oh and "HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" Before you accuse someone else of being ignorant you should clean the crap off your own face !! First off, Pakistan has done very little to fight Terror in their own country, that is why there are so many Terrorists there, they have the support of the people in the rural regions of the country, remember that Gov led incursion into the Mt,Regions they got their arse's kicked. and had to sit down and talk to local tribal leaders, how can a gov that cant even control it's own country be expected to rid itself of International Terroists??? If they really wanted to be tuff on them they would let the US troops into Pakistan,they would get rid of them for Musharif, but then all the Muslims err sorry most of the Muslims in Pakistan would be up in arms wouldn't they?? Also the top leaders you talk about were captured on CIA/Informer information not beause the Paki Gov activly sought them out, Musharif has his hands tied by the Extemists in his country and the fact that India is next door. And in Afghanistan all that the Alliance/Coalition Troops control is Kabul a few other cities and some airbases,other than that it is Anarchy, Warlords roam supreme!! those are the people you speak of rooting out terrorists, but we all know about Warlords they will work for whoever pays the most!! As for the Casualty figures in Iraq yes it is horrible, i wonder if you have read all my posts? I think not because then you would know i am against being in Iraq!! Where is your out cry/outrage about insurgents killing almost 12,000 civilians in the last 2 1/2 months?? or is that ok because it is Muslims killing Muslims?? Have you asked yourself how many of those Civilians were killed because a Tank/mortor/insurgent was hidding in a group of houses/civilians? or the fact that Snipers/insurgents intentionally open fire on troops hoping to get them to return fire in their direction and kill Civilians ?? I also wonder if you have seen the pictures/video of American/Coalition troops saving/rescuing/helping civilians?? If the US/Coallition troops were truly evil horrible Bastards like everyone thinks they are, then why is it that we medically treat the very people we are fighting? I dont think Insurgents even have a health plan,do they? we are the ones who rush the victims of Suicide Bombings to Hospitals we are the ones who rush onto bridges in the middle of a "Fire Fight" to rescue trapped/wounded civilians. and yet people still support insugents, wanna tell me why? As for Saudi Arabia, did i not say ("i believe") where i come from that means i think/i heard/ I BELIEVE, that is the case hope i cleared that up for you,also i noticed you did not go into the subject of Slavery in the Islamic World, i guess that was not totaly false huh,well just because you say it is false does not mean it is ssshhh, go do some research you might be surprised by what you learn!! As for the Army,i was Enlisted,i was in the USAF for 6 yrs, wonder if you have ever enlisted? And i am the one hiding lol,i am here post after post, my email is there as well, whats next? are you saying you want to meet up and fight or something lol? Did not know Muslims could fight face to face, thought it was only thru Explosive devices hehe, besides how would i recognise you wont you be wearing a ski mask or something to hide your appearance?(was that anti-muslim enough for ya?) That was Sarcasm m8!! And you are really clueless i said i was against the War in previous posts, and if you would have read all of them you would have seen that i have never said Kill any Muslim, and i have never used Profanity against or directed towards a Muslim!! And hiding is when you say,(POP I WILL NOT BE COMING BACK TO ANSWER YOUR RESPONCE) that is hiding behind your computer!!!! As for being wrong, what am i wrong about??? I have seen no proof showing otherwise? that has been my argumet, like ssshhh's i will not be coming back either he is the same peron that said the same thing in an earlier post or maybe it is Muslims who cant handle the truth get upset and do things like Tell you off and say im not coming back lol how childish!! This is the Islam i hate, and the rest of Islam does almost nothing to stop it, no other Religion or Culture on earth does the sort of things Islam does to Innocent People, at least when the West fights you we have uniforms, and are willing to fight man to man,Islam uses people as weapons, and Murder as propaganda, no other Culture/Religion on earth does this!! Islamic Religious Leaders openly tell their followers to Kill, no other Culture/Religion does this, this is the Islam i hate. After this i was going to post videos/pictures of what Radical Islam is doing these videos are from all over the world,they show "MUSLIMS" killing people from diff cultures all over the world, if you want to see them i will post them,but if your Islamic you have prob already seen them? It makes me quiver sometimes to think of what a typical Arabic/Islamic State run meadia program is like? Al-Jazera must have a heading like " YOUR ALL DEATH-ALL DAY NETWORK" So if you want me to show you vids of Islam and it agressions towards the rest of the world i will, and that is why i believe Islam is at fault for the current Global climate, Islam is killing people all over the globe do you not see it, do you not see that Islam is being the aggressor, do you not see that Islam is the Culture in need of fixing, just look at how many countries Islam/Muslims are killing people in, it is far more than the USA !!!!!

62 If you have to say sorry, why did you do it? You should know better Noob!!!!!!!!

63 pop, im not ignorant, i was just pointing out facts, i dont say "white christian males" in a "hating" sort of way, i just lets say putting it blunt cuz thats just what it is. But what i was saying is fact based, ur saudi child sex shit, has nothing to back it up, and maybe when ur able to give me a fact base link, ill check in to it. And in my defence for Muslims, the white men knew better, they did all the shit out of hate and money, these islamic terrorists, only do it out of a MIS-GUIDED preaching. in other words i believe its safe to say they dont know better, AND have u read the interview with one of the suicide bombers a few weeks ago. U can clearly see hes misguided or just plain fuckin retarded. but dont mix all islam/muslims together, cuz we're not all the same.

64 Arghhh!!!!! like talking to a "Brick Wall" Really bahamut only "White Christian Males ehhh last time i checked Western Countries were a Melting Pot of Cultures especially the USA, just look at our Soldiers,you will see White/Black/Hispanic/Asian backgrounds represented,kind of like the USA as a whole so the White Christian Male comment was/is ignorant and not fact based!! As for the Saudi Arabia thing, " I BELIEVE", that your lack of conversation on Slavery in the Islamic World in general,leads me to believe that no matter what i put up you would argue it. The "FACT" that the Islamic World leads the world in Human Slavery should indicate that an Islamic Country leads the World in the Child Sex Trade does it really matter if Saudi Arabia is #1 or even #3 the "Facts" are that an Islamic Country/Countries lead the world in Human trade!!! As for the "White Men" knew better bit i am confused, Is not a Terrorists reason for being one "Hate"? Is a Terrorists Family not compensated with "Money" if he/she should be killed or severly wounded? that sounds like doing things out of "Hate" and for "Money"? And you say dont mix all Islam/Muslims together, i find it amusing that you should say that to me when you a grouping all Americans as being "White Christian Males" and " The White Men Knew Better", lol see what i mean m8, yur not making much sense!! It comes down to this bahamut, Muslim/Islamic Dictators fund Terrorism,Muslim/Islamic Religion funds Terrorism, Muslim/Islamic Culture supports/breeds and trains Terrorist's, and every Muslim Country has produced a Suicide Bomber. That is why i am so ardently against modern day Extremist Islam,because Muslims in general have done nothing to stop Terror!! If anything they have nurtured it. I wonder bahamut do you support Terrorism? If not what have you done as a Muslim to stop it,or to try and change Radical Muslims minds ??

65 Im not for terrorism,in fact in the next few months or so ill be "giving up" my Islam ways, so the NOI can hate me and dis-own me for all i care, the reason ill be shipping off for boot in late Aug. for the army. So basicly everything i been talking about just dosent matter anymore, if they want to continue blowing everyone up, then let them, i couldnt do anything about it THEN. But to answer ur last question NOW ill be able to do something about it. But joing the military is a personal reason for myself, im not doing it cuz its THE RIGHT THING TO DO, im not doing it for the ppl, im not even doing it for the country, not for Bush or anyone, im doing it for myself. If u dont understand then, its a realy long story, and i dont feel like explaining it now. As for the "white christian males" thing, i think u missed what i was trying to say, thats who was doing all the killing WHITE MEN, and YES some Native Americans did help, for what reasons still bothers me today. I cant say ive heard of Asian cowboys riding along side and killing Native Americans, maybe some blacks did as well but i cant find anything that supports that. But the point is, all the killers where white (IM NOT GROUPING AMERICA AS ONE OR A WHOLE). Thats what i was trying to explain to u. And i doubt some Muslims have nurtured Terrorism, some have or maybe even hundreds, but not all, thats why i said dont mix these MIS-GUIDED terror freaks with other Muslims who are just trying to live their lives according to ALLAH'S way. There are good Muslims out there, But i wouldnt know i renounced my own.

66 ????????????????????????????????????? dont know where to begin????????????????????? Are you being Sarcastic or did you Convert to Logic? just heard that the Terrorists/Insurgents are now kidnapping/targeting Muslim/Arabic Diplomats! I wonder is an Islamic Civil War on the Horizon?

67 i am a muslim and proud to be but u cant call all muslims terrorists because if you can say that i would just like to say that the CHRISTIAN terrorists in Ireland, The CHRISTIAN terrorists in Bosnia, The CHRISTIAN terrorists in Uganda the CHRISTIAN terrorists in Lebanon are what all CHRISTIAN people represent..... see that you didn't like that did u So stop calling all Muslims terrorisst ::: Yes there are a minority of crackpots who kill and belive in teachings opposed to ISLAM but they represent the minority of the population ( I frankly dont believe of them as muslims) but do CHRISTAIN terrorists really represent CHRISTIANATY. PS The London Bombings are sick and i as a british muslim condemn them

68 hello

69 Spmewhere among the hundreds of rubbish written here it said that muslims don't give any money to charity>>> So let me make it clear that billions of muslims on this planet have been paying 2.5 percent of their wealth to underprivelleged people for over 1100 years IF anybody can write a better argument that me on this point and the other one i have written and i can;t reply to them than i will accept their point of view

70 Shocking isnt it.....i was not being sarcastic at all, if u want to call it "logic" then do so. just saying it would be bad for a muslim to fire at another muslim. so i said the hell with it and insted of shaking my head at every bad thing on tv, i might as well do something about it. It dosent mean im against muslims or Islam, but i just think theres nothing more we can do in Iraq and i believe we need to be going into Central Congo and help those ppl, in my own personal opinion they need more help than the ppl of Iraq. Women in Iraq arnt being raped by 10 men on a 24 hour basis like in the congo. As for the bombing in London i just believe its some pissed off person, whos mad because the 2012 games arnt being held in their country, thats all.

71 Muslims have very little to be proud of at this point in time. We muslims can harp on about how we were leaders centuries ago, but come on, this is now - the present - and we suck. The Americans and the British and Israel can do pretty much whatever they want to muslim countries and individuals. They're stronger and playing smarter - right now. Right now, don't expect or even have false and pathetic hopes of western media or any part of the mainstream paying any attention to your begging of 'understanding', of pleading for them to try to understand any notions of what you percieve to be the realities of islam. It just simply ain't gonna happen. And don't have any fantasy notions of the so-called 'decline of the west', the demise of western civilization like most muslims tend to do. If that's true, then what the hell are millions of us doing here anyways??? I am firmly a citizen of the west and not of any so-called muslim country. Why? Because I can practise my faith freely here. I can preach it in my mosque and to anyone who will listen with freedom. Because Islamic leaders have let their own people down and I don't hear a peep out of those very muslims who have been given the gift of freedom (those who live in the west) against those brutal regimes in their native lands. I look at the resolute Chileans who escaped Pinochet in the 70's and 80's form action groups in the US, same with Cubans, Haitians, Soviet-era dissidents who escaped communism, all came here, embraced freedom and USED THEIR FREEDOM TO HELP END INJUSTICES IN THOSE PLACES FROM WHICH THEY CAME. Now don't get me wrong, I am a faithful muslim. But just like the catholic church misused the bible during the inquisition, I know that the Islamic religion is being misused by fundamentalists (the crazies that have moved from the basement to the main floor). And (surprise surprise) I do believe, to a limited extent, in the 'conspiracy theories' of the state of Israel's involvement in terror against the west to further hatred toward Arab countries. But I say so what....the question isn't about who's conspiring against you. The question is: What are YOU doing yourself against injustice and brutality and, in fact, the real anti-muslim scourge which is the leadership in those muslim countries? Why aren't Pakistani-Americans forming groups to pressure Pakistan's government into ending corrupt 'tribal courts', corrupt police, brutality against women? All of which Islam forbids. Do you really expect westerners to take your side when you don't openly and harshly condemn these things?? Same goes for Iranian-Americans and similar crimes by the Iranian government? We go on and on and on about how this country is conspiring against us and that group is against us....but what else do we do??? Now, on a side note, could someone please tell me how the taking away of rights, issuing national ID cards, and all that crap is going to stop a terrorist or group of terrorist intent on attacking? I mean, it really doesn't make sense to destroy what freedom is all about, especially whent it won't make a bean's worth of difference. You can't stop an evil person from doing an evil deed if they're intent on it, you can only punish the deed. Of course I understand the needs to coordinate intelligence better and those sorts of things. But it seems like back in the muslim countries, where there's no need for open public trials cuz they just get in the way. America's freedom, the greatest freedom in history, is premised on the idea that freedom is indeed a right, NOT a privelege. The constitution is the PEOPLE's check on GOVERNMENT powers...not the other way around. Just my two cents.

72 Allah hu Akbar

73 FELLOW HUMANS CAN I PLEASE HAVE YOUR ATTENTION... I have got to begin by sayin how deeply troubled i am by what i have read today on this site. It seems to me that a lot of the comments posted are from individuals who have been indoctrinated by western media and stereo types and are filled with a blind hatred of Islam & muslims. Let me clear one thing right now.......... NO MUSLIM HAS EVER CELEBRATED 9/11 the images displayed by the BBC which were removed as quickly as they were shown on tv of palestinians celebrating which in reality was OLD VIDEO FOOTAGE OF A CELEBRATION OF EID (holy day). The BBC even made a public apology of the false information it had shown at the time of the terrible, cowardly attacks on the world trade centre. ISLAM STRICTLY FORBIDS THE KILLING OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS. The Holy Quran states "..Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom." (al-An'am 6:151) "Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law)" (al-Isra' 17:33) "Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that IF ANYONE KILLED A PERSON not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - IT WOULD BE AS IF HE KILLED ALL MANKIND, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allâh by committing the major sins) in the land." (al-Ma'idah 5:32) The above are a few of many examples in the Holy Quran that clearly states the importance of even one human life. How people can say that muslims are bloodthirsty savages, is beyond me. Just because someone is called a muslim does not mean he is abiding by Islam. Islam is derived from the Arabic root "Salema": peace, purity, submission and obedience. In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law. A muslim is someone that follows that code therefore a true believer is peaceful. I hope this educates many of you and I pray to God that he eliminates the hatred from your hearts and minds. Peace be upon you all.

74 believer what you have writen is beautiful and moving may allah bless you and your family ALLAH HU AKBAR

75 First off "BRAVO" "Reality Check", could not have said it better myself!!! You truly understand the problem thru logical eyes, not "Religiously" clouded ones,like most of my opposition in here. "WELL SAID" !!!! As for you "Beliver" the fact that you said no Muslim celebrated 9/11 is prob the most ignorant thing i have read in here!!! Anyone who has a brain knows plenty of "Muslims" celebrated 9/11 i saw plenty of video showing muslims acting out the attack with their hands/friends,ect.ect. And as for your talk of Islam being a peacefull religion, as a whole it may be but it is "Islam" wich has created these illogical monsters, who dont even know what they want other than an "Islamic" world. Are they reading something diff than you? Dont preach in this chatroom about Islam and Peace, go Preach to the Terrorists!!! Just look at what your peacefull religion is doing all over the world!! like i said in previous posts, "Islam" is attacking "INNOCENT CIVILIANS" in every single corner of the "Islamic World" And does the "West" really harbor more hatred than the Islamic World? I think not just look at the facts, Thosands of Mosques in the "Western World" you ever hear of them being attacked or bombed, no is the answer. Can you say the same of other "Religions Icons" in the Islamic World, nope "Muslims" regularly target "Christian's" and "Jews" at their places of worship. Does the "West" burn "Arabic" or "Islamic" flags in the streets like "Muslims" do to "Western" flags?,nope!! And yet you have the gaul to say Islam is a peacefull religion, its the only religion/culture to attack "The Olympic Games" that event is meant to bring man-kind together it is the one event in the world were you leave "Anger" at the door and compete in goodwill(Guess the "Muslims/PLO" were "ANGRY" cause they suck at organized sports). Yet you say "Islam" is peacefull, it is anything but !!! Just a few of the Countries where peacefull "Muslims" err "Terrorists" are killing or have killed others recently. 1)USA 2)UK 3)Spain 4)Germany 5)France 6)Greece 7)Holland Albania 9)Chechnia 10)Hungary 11)Morocco 12)Algeria 13)Tunisia 14)Libiya 15)Western Samoa 16)Mali 17)Niger 1 Nigeria 19)Chad 20)Sudan 21)Ethiopia 22)C.A.R 23)Uganda 24)Somalia 25)Uganda 26)Kenya 27)Yemen 2 Djibouti 29)Oman 30)U.A.E 31)Qatar 32)Saudi Arabia 33)Israel 34)Jordan 35)Lebanon 36)Cyprus 37)Egypt 3 Turkey 39)Kuwait 40)Syria 41)Iraq 42)Turkmenistan 43)Armenia 44)Russia 45)Azerbijan 46)Uzbekistan 47)Tajikistan 4 Afghanistan 49)Pakistan 50)India 51)Nepal 52)China 53)Bangladesh 54)Sri Lanka 55)Burma 56)Bhutan 57)Thailand 5 Malaysia 59)Indonesia 60)Brunei 61)Philppines Peacefull my Arse!!!! "WAKE UP"!!!! And Amaad, this is a "Blog" not a "Mosque", keep that crap where it belongs!! Have something usefull to say !!

76 ." Fundamentalists are people who don’t admit that others even have ideas, and your way of giving such short shrift to anyone with religious belief carries on the tradition admirably. A little bit more of "I’m willing to listen and learn " would be helpful in getting your point across. There is too much use of accusations of lying and deliberate concealment, and after awhile everything sounds very shrill. A few months ago in the UK a woman killed a little girl in her care claiming she was possessed by the devil. She professed to be a devout Christian, and sat trial with her bible to hand. You are welcome to listen and learn from this woman and people like her—I am not willing to. If I sound shrill, it is because everyone has traditionally given Christians the benefit of the doubt. They do not merit it. The time for politeness is long gone. Should we be polite to Nazis or to the Knights of the Bushido? Christians have committed equivalent crimes by the million in the name of God. To become a Christian therefore is like becoming a Nazi, you have to ignore a history so wicked, it is unmentionable. As for shouting down opponents, I cannot see how it is done on the internet, and indeed, judging from the mail I get, it is my opponents who want to shout me down. Nor do I think what you say about other peoples’ ideas has any weight. I am not arguing against empty space, but against their ideas. I suspect you mean I should accept them in some way. I say that Christians lie and conceal because that is what they have always done, and I offer plenty of evidence, though no one should need any. They can see it every day of their lives. Christians simply cannot distinguish between truth and lies when they think it is for the glory of God. It’s not that I disagree with you entirely. However, the truth is that not only Christians and not only religious people have lied and hidden the truth from themselves. That’s the point that I want to make, and the rather unquestioning certainty that you project places you in danger of doing the same thing. Besides, whether or not you think that Christians lie and cheat, it would be better to give them the benefit of the doubt. You can’t surely believe that Christians lie and cheat all the time. You cannot take the woman who professed to be a devout Christian and kiled a little girl as the norm of Christian discourse. Your position would be strengthened, not weakened, but taking up a rational position, in which a willingness to listen is paramount. Now, of course it is not only Christians who lie and cheat, but the point I am making is that Christians do it as a matter of faith. They simply do not realise that they are lying as long as the intent is piety. That is why one of my pages is called ’God’s Truth, Pious Lies’. They are the same thing. There is therefore a fundamental difference between Christians and those who consider lying is generally wrong and undesirable in honest and moral societies. There is also a fundamental difference between those who value the world we live in and those who disdain it at the most basic level. What people do not value, they destroy, and that is what is happening. Finally, you are repeating your mysterious point about ’projecting an unquestioning certainty’ and ’taking up a position’ of ’willingness to listen,’ implying also that I am irrational. It is Christianity that is irrational, as the child murderess shows. I am not arguing against empty space. How can I argue against the Christian position without having read (or heard) it? And, having come to conclusions after considering the evidence, am I to suggest to readers that I am nevertheless wrong? Is this a rule that all advocates should take up, or Christians for that matter? If Christians treated their faith as their own personal delusion, then there could be little objection to them, but they have always foisted it on to the rest of us. It is time we objected with enough rancour to make Christians take us seriously. Let me try to explain my point, which I think still stands. You say this: "Now, of course it is not only Christians who lie and cheat, but the point I am making is that Christians do it as a matter of faith. They simply do not realise that they are lying as long as the intent is piety." It is quite true that, sometimes, when Christians or religious people in general, say something which they believe is at the heart of truth for them, they do not see that their piety is a shelter for lies. No doubt about that. The easiest thing in the world is to say that God told me to do it, and not recognize that it is simply the person him or herself who has done it from motives they are too blinded by religious zeal to see. That’s quite true. So far I agree with you. But to go on to say that Christians should "treat their faith as their own personal delusion, " is going much too far. I believe that religion probably does and will continue to play and important role in people’s lives. For all that I believe that religion, like any other philosophy or belief, is created by human beings. So religious people have a deep responsibility for what they say about God, a very powerful symbol which can, misused, do a great deal of damage. On the other hand, used responsibly, this symbol can be not only very powerful, but very fruitful. If it is to play an important role in people’s lives, that is fine so long as they keep it in their own lives. Christians cannot. People of other religions such as the Parsis can. What consenting adults do in private is no concern to any of us, but when they constantly solicit you with their views and then impose them on to you, they ought to be considered a public nuisance. As for the symbol of God, I cannot distinguish between it and the institutions that foist it on to us. The damage they have caused is singularly theirs, whereas any half decent psychology could relieve most of the problems that people feel that God can solve. You say that I am accusing you of being irrational. No. That’s not what I said. What I said was that you weaken your case when you do not listen to things that are contrary to your beliefs and ideas. You say, "It is Christianity that is irrational, as the child murderess shows." No, all that shows is that that woman is irrational. I don’t think you’d find many Christians who would uphold what she did as being God’s will. "Your position would be strengthened, not weakened, by taking up a rational position," seems to say I am irrational, but I’ll accept its is only a question of phraseology. But now you say that I "do not listen to things that are contrary to my ideas." What basis have you for saying this? I get thoroughly cheesed off by people writing what they think have a smart refutation of some small point, when the point is thoroughly explained on the pages. They do not read what is there but tell me I am wrong and ignorant. I assume these are Christians since they think they are ahowing me the errors of my ways. They are the ones who should listen. I repeat again, how can I argue without first having heard the views I am seeking to refute? The woman who tortured her little ward to death was not so irrational that she did not try to impress the judge with her profound piety. It is a common enough ploy to get leniency here but is probably much more widespread in the US. The corrupt politician, Jonathan Aitkin, one of the Beaverbrooks, succeeded in getting a light sentence by telling the judge he had found God through the error of his ways, and I noticed only a few days ago, that the drunken yob, that gashed the air hostess with a vodka bottle in mid-flight over France giving her 40 stitches, tried the same defence, but the French judge would not wear it, and gave him four years anyway. Lastly, despite your plea for Christians not generally supporting what the woman did, I have heard no roars of outrage from the majority of Christians that others among them still believe that people can be possessed by devils that must be driven out by torturing their supposed victim. You will see why I put the irrationality on the church. The little girl need not have died if the guardian had not been taught this irrational delusion by the church. One of the most terrible things about religion is that it did not allow for differing opinions, and tried to put itself forward as the only truth. I think that is something that you need to beware of doing, and are, I think, clearly in danger of doing, and then you become not much better than the supposed enemy you oppose. Well, you put up a brave defence of the enemy I oppose, but truth cannot be equated with falsehood in the interests of parity. I regard religion as being a world view—a set of beliefs by which we can make some sense of the world. I can see no reason at all why these beliefs must today be irrational or supernatural. The supernatural might serve as an explanation of complex matters for unsophisticated people, but in our modern well educated societies, there is no room for irrational religions. They are so dangerous they might lead to the death of us all. Christians will welcome it because they imagine they will all be in heaven for the rest of eternity! Written by a christian professor!!

77 ." Fundamentalists are people who don’t admit that others even have ideas, and your way of giving such short shrift to anyone with religious belief carries on the tradition admirably. A little bit more of "I’m willing to listen and learn " would be helpful in getting your point across. There is too much use of accusations of lying and deliberate concealment, and after awhile everything sounds very shrill. A few months ago in the UK a woman killed a little girl in her care claiming she was possessed by the devil. She professed to be a devout Christian, and sat trial with her bible to hand. You are welcome to listen and learn from this woman and people like her—I am not willing to. If I sound shrill, it is because everyone has traditionally given Christians the benefit of the doubt. They do not merit it. The time for politeness is long gone. Should we be polite to Nazis or to the Knights of the Bushido? Christians have committed equivalent crimes by the million in the name of God. To become a Christian therefore is like becoming a Nazi, you have to ignore a history so wicked, it is unmentionable. As for shouting down opponents, I cannot see how it is done on the internet, and indeed, judging from the mail I get, it is my opponents who want to shout me down. Nor do I think what you say about other peoples’ ideas has any weight. I am not arguing against empty space, but against their ideas. I suspect you mean I should accept them in some way. I say that Christians lie and conceal because that is what they have always done, and I offer plenty of evidence, though no one should need any. They can see it every day of their lives. Christians simply cannot distinguish between truth and lies when they think it is for the glory of God. It’s not that I disagree with you entirely. However, the truth is that not only Christians and not only religious people have lied and hidden the truth from themselves. That’s the point that I want to make, and the rather unquestioning certainty that you project places you in danger of doing the same thing. Besides, whether or not you think that Christians lie and cheat, it would be better to give them the benefit of the doubt. You can’t surely believe that Christians lie and cheat all the time. You cannot take the woman who professed to be a devout Christian and kiled a little girl as the norm of Christian discourse. Your position would be strengthened, not weakened, but taking up a rational position, in which a willingness to listen is paramount. Now, of course it is not only Christians who lie and cheat, but the point I am making is that Christians do it as a matter of faith. They simply do not realise that they are lying as long as the intent is piety. That is why one of my pages is called ’God’s Truth, Pious Lies’. They are the same thing. There is therefore a fundamental difference between Christians and those who consider lying is generally wrong and undesirable in honest and moral societies. There is also a fundamental difference between those who value the world we live in and those who disdain it at the most basic level. What people do not value, they destroy, and that is what is happening. Finally, you are repeating your mysterious point about ’projecting an unquestioning certainty’ and ’taking up a position’ of ’willingness to listen,’ implying also that I am irrational. It is Christianity that is irrational, as the child murderess shows. I am not arguing against empty space. How can I argue against the Christian position without having read (or heard) it? And, having come to conclusions after considering the evidence, am I to suggest to readers that I am nevertheless wrong? Is this a rule that all advocates should take up, or Christians for that matter? If Christians treated their faith as their own personal delusion, then there could be little objection to them, but they have always foisted it on to the rest of us. It is time we objected with enough rancour to make Christians take us seriously. Let me try to explain my point, which I think still stands. You say this: "Now, of course it is not only Christians who lie and cheat, but the point I am making is that Christians do it as a matter of faith. They simply do not realise that they are lying as long as the intent is piety." It is quite true that, sometimes, when Christians or religious people in general, say something which they believe is at the heart of truth for them, they do not see that their piety is a shelter for lies. No doubt about that. The easiest thing in the world is to say that God told me to do it, and not recognize that it is simply the person him or herself who has done it from motives they are too blinded by religious zeal to see. That’s quite true. So far I agree with you. But to go on to say that Christians should "treat their faith as their own personal delusion, " is going much too far. I believe that religion probably does and will continue to play and important role in people’s lives. For all that I believe that religion, like any other philosophy or belief, is created by human beings. So religious people have a deep responsibility for what they say about God, a very powerful symbol which can, misused, do a great deal of damage. On the other hand, used responsibly, this symbol can be not only very powerful, but very fruitful. If it is to play an important role in people’s lives, that is fine so long as they keep it in their own lives. Christians cannot. People of other religions such as the Parsis can. What consenting adults do in private is no concern to any of us, but when they constantly solicit you with their views and then impose them on to you, they ought to be considered a public nuisance. As for the symbol of God, I cannot distinguish between it and the institutions that foist it on to us. The damage they have caused is singularly theirs, whereas any half decent psychology could relieve most of the problems that people feel that God can solve. You say that I am accusing you of being irrational. No. That’s not what I said. What I said was that you weaken your case when you do not listen to things that are contrary to your beliefs and ideas. You say, "It is Christianity that is irrational, as the child murderess shows." No, all that shows is that that woman is irrational. I don’t think you’d find many Christians who would uphold what she did as being God’s will. "Your position would be strengthened, not weakened, by taking up a rational position," seems to say I am irrational, but I’ll accept its is only a question of phraseology. But now you say that I "do not listen to things that are contrary to my ideas." What basis have you for saying this? I get thoroughly cheesed off by people writing what they think have a smart refutation of some small point, when the point is thoroughly explained on the pages. They do not read what is there but tell me I am wrong and ignorant. I assume these are Christians since they think they are ahowing me the errors of my ways. They are the ones who should listen. I repeat again, how can I argue without first having heard the views I am seeking to refute? The woman who tortured her little ward to death was not so irrational that she did not try to impress the judge with her profound piety. It is a common enough ploy to get leniency here but is probably much more widespread in the US. The corrupt politician, Jonathan Aitkin, one of the Beaverbrooks, succeeded in getting a light sentence by telling the judge he had found God through the error of his ways, and I noticed only a few days ago, that the drunken yob, that gashed the air hostess with a vodka bottle in mid-flight over France giving her 40 stitches, tried the same defence, but the French judge would not wear it, and gave him four years anyway. Lastly, despite your plea for Christians not generally supporting what the woman did, I have heard no roars of outrage from the majority of Christians that others among them still believe that people can be possessed by devils that must be driven out by torturing their supposed victim. You will see why I put the irrationality on the church. The little girl need not have died if the guardian had not been taught this irrational delusion by the church. One of the most terrible things about religion is that it did not allow for differing opinions, and tried to put itself forward as the only truth. I think that is something that you need to beware of doing, and are, I think, clearly in danger of doing, and then you become not much better than the supposed enemy you oppose. Well, you put up a brave defence of the enemy I oppose, but truth cannot be equated with falsehood in the interests of parity. I regard religion as being a world view—a set of beliefs by which we can make some sense of the world. I can see no reason at all why these beliefs must today be irrational or supernatural. The supernatural might serve as an explanation of complex matters for unsophisticated people, but in our modern well educated societies, there is no room for irrational religions. They are so dangerous they might lead to the death of us all. Christians will welcome it because they imagine they will all be in heaven for the rest of eternity! Written by a christian professor!!

78 give me one reliable website that shows or has proof that that a muslim has celebrated 9/11 does a persons or groups actions give you an opoinion of what they are like

79 During the time while this book was being written, the Middle East was once again the scene of conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians. The Israeli army have been ruthlessly bombing civilian settlements, shooting children, and trying to make the already tormented Occupied Territories more uninhabitable. Some Palestinian radicals, on the other hand, are attacking Israeli civilian targets and spreading violence with their terrible suicide bombings aimed at innocent women and children. As Muslims, our heartfelt wish is for the anger and hatred on both sides to die down, for the bloodshed to stop, and for peace to come to both lands. We oppose both the Israeli killing of innocent Palestinians and the radical Palestinians bombing of innocent Israelis. In our view, the most important condition for this ongoing conflict to end and for real peace to be established is for both sides to acquire and then implement a genuine and honest understanding of their respective beliefs. The conflict between these two peoples has assumed the form of a "religious war" between Jews and Muslims, though, in fact there is absolutely no reason for there to be such a war. Both Jews and Muslims believe in God, love and respect many of the same prophets, and possess the same moral principles. They are not enemies; rather, they are allies in a world in which atheism and the hatred of religion are widespread. Based on this fundamental principle, we call on the Israelis (and all Jews) to realize the following facts: 1) Muslims and Jews believe in one God, the Creator of the universe and all things therein. We are all God's servants, and to Him shall we all return. So why hate each other? The holy books we believe in are superficially different but in essence the same, for they come from the same God. Therefore we all abide by them. So why should we fight one another? 2) Instead of living along with Muslims, would the observant Jews prefer to live along with atheists or pagans? The Torah is full of passages describing the terrible cruelties inflicted upon the Jews by pagans. The terrible genocide and cruelty inflicted upon them by atheists and unbelievers (e.g., the Nazis, anti-Semitic racists, or such communist regimes as Stalin's Russia) are clear for all to see. These atheist or pagan forces hated the Jews, and thus oppressed them, because they believed in God. Are not Jews and Muslims on the same side against these atheist, communist, or racist forces that hate them both? 3) Muslims and Jews love and respect many of the same prophets. The Prophets Ibrahim (Abraham), Ishaq (Isaac), Yusuf (Joseph), Musa (Moses), or Dawud (David), peace be upon them all, are at least as important for Muslims as they are for Jews. The lands where these holy figures lived and served God are at least as holy for Muslims as they are for Jews. So why drown these lands in blood and tears? 4) The fundamental values of Jews are also sacred to us Muslims. The word "Israel" is the name of Prophet Ya'qub (Jacob), peace be upon him, who is praised in the Qur'an and remembered with great respect by Muslims. The Magen David (Star of David), a symbol associated with King David is a holy symbol for us too. According to Qur'an 22:40, Muslims must protect synagogues because they are places of worship. So why should members of the two religions not live together in peace? Jews and Muslims believe in the same God. Israeli soldiers who are true believers must not forget that God has forbidden the killing of innocent people and the use of violence and cruelty, and has ordered us to be tolerant, understanding, and peaceful. Palestine is home to many Jewish, Christian, and Muslim holy places. All true believers must see that love, mercy, and peace take the place of blood, tears, and animosity in this region. 5) The Torah commands Jews to establish peace and security, not to occupy the lands of others and spill blood. The people of Israel are described as "a light unto the nations" in the Torah. As the "Rabbis for Human Rights" declare: We are told: "Justice, justice, you shall pursue" (Deuteronomy 16:20). Why is the word justice said twice? Because, according to our tradition, one is to pursue a just cause by just means. In defending ourselves, we must always hold on to the prophetic vision of decency and humanity. The survival of the Jewish people will be determined not only by its physical acumen, but also, by its moral steadfastness.1 If the Israelis continue to treat the Palestinians as they do now, they may be unable to account for that to God. Similarly, those Palestinians who kill innocent Israelis may also be unable to account for those murders. Is it not a duty in the eyes of God to put an end to the fighting, which is dragging both sides deeper into unending violence? We invite all Jews to consider these facts. God commands us Muslims to invite Jews and Christians to a "common formula": Say: "O People of the Book! Let us rally to a common formula to be binding upon both us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; and that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God." (Qu'ran, 3:64) This is our call to the Jews, a People of the Book: As people who believe in God and obey His commands, let us come together in a common formula of "faith." Let us love God, the Lord and Creator of all of us. Let us abide by His commands. Let us pray to God to lead us further on the path of righteousness. Let us bring love, compassion, and peace to each other and the world, not hostility, bloodshed, and anguish. That is where the solution to the Palestinian tragedy and other conflicts in the world lies. The deaths and suffering of so many innocent people remind us every day what an urgent task this is. Palestinian Muslims, sincere Jews, and Christians all want peace and security to replace this seemingly unending conflict. All of them are praying together for this. How Can the Palestinian Issue Be Resolved? Jerusalem, a place holy to the three monotheistic religions, should be a city in which people can worship together in peace. By using the principles of tolerance and moderation outlined above, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which has caused so much bloodshed over the last 50 years, can be solved. In our view, establishing peace depends upon two conditions: 1) Israel must immediately withdraw from all the territories it occupied during the 1967 war and end the resulting occupation. That is an obligation under international law, various U.N. Security Council resolutions, and mere justice itself. All of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip must be recognized as belonging to an independent State of Palestine. 2) East Jerusalem, the site of significant places of worship belonging to three divinely revealed religions, must be administered by the Palestine authority. However, it must have a special status and be turned into a city of peace that all Jews, Christians, and Muslims can visit comfortably, in peace and well-being, and where they can worship in their own sanctuaries. When these conditions are fulfilled, both Israelis and Palestines will have recognized each other's right to live, shared the land of Palestine, and solved the contentious question of Jerusalem's status in a way that satisfies the adherents of these three religions. In the upcoming pages of the book, we will deal with and analyze the history of the Palestinian issue based upon our view outlined above. Our hope is that the constant hostility of the last 50 years or so, as well as the resulting prejudice, killing, and slaughter, will come to an end; that the Palestinian people can secure a homeland that can provide them with the peace, security, and well-being they deserve; and that Israel will abandon its policy of aggression and occupation, which wrongs its own people as well as the Palestinians, so that it will be able to live in peace with its neighbours within its legal pre-1967 borders. harun yahya Palestine

80 Palestine broke free from Ottoman rule after the First World War with the help of the invading British army, but could never achieve the state of peace and security that it had enjoyed under the Ottomans. Over the course of nearly a century, thousands of innocent people have been killed by Israeli terror, massacres, and torture. Millions of innocent Palestinians have been forced from their homes and their homeland and sentenced to live in poverty, at the brink of starvation, in refugee camps. All efforts to solve this oppression and cruelty, played out before the world's eyes, and to build a sustainable regional peace have failed. The phony peace initiatives carried out under the auspices of Western governments have proven to be of no use, other than to buy time for Israel to carry out new tactics for depopulating the territories it occupied. First of all, we must realize that the events in Palestine are much more than merely a ware between Arabs and Israelis. A struggle for existence is being waged by the Palestinians, whose lands and rights were removed forcibly by occupying Israeli forces. What is more, the lands in question contain sites that are sacred to Muslims. Palestine is very important to Muslims because of Jerusalem, the Muslims' first qibla, and the site of the Prophet Mohammed's miraculous mi'raj (night journey). Furthermore, Palestine is sacred not only to Jews and Muslims, but to Christians as well. For these reasons, it is folly to try and keep Palestinian lands, Jerusalem in particular, under the authority of an exclusively nationalist political entity or to recognize the rights of only one religious or national group. Palestine must be a land where Jews, Christians, and Muslims can live together in peace and fulfill their religious duties as they wish. A merciless struggle continues today between the two peoples living in the land of Palestine. On the one hand, the well-equipped Israeli army is carrying out a policy of all-out destruction; on the other, radical Palestinian groups are carrying out suicide bombings against helpless Israeli citizens. This book will discuss the grave error of trying to solve existing problems through violence, and how a real solution might be devised. Here one important fact must not be ignored - the Palestinians are being subjected to cruelty and humiliation while the entire world watches. While Palestinian civilians daily find themselves the targets of Israeli soldiers' bullets, while millions of people spend many years in hunger and poverty in refugee camps, while many Muslims (including women) are tortured in Israeli prisons, there are grave responsibilities incumbent upon all Muslims who believe in God and fear the Day of Judgment. The first responsibility is to fight the racist, intolerant, Social Darwinistic ideologies that form the basis of all unfairness and injustice in the world. As you read these lines, know that the struggle of thousands of beleaguered Palestinians to remain on their lands continues in all of its violence. The occupying Israeli forces may be bombing Palestinian cities or refugee camps. Possibly, children will be going to school under helicopter fire, and families who were forced to flee over 50 years ago will still be trying to scratch out an existence in the refugee camps. In any part of the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, or Jerusalem, Palestinians today will endure oppression and cruelty mostly because they are "Muslim." For these reasons, every person of conscience must reflect upon this situation. The responsibility of following media stories about this cruelty and barbarism, and then continuing to live as if nothing has happened, no doubt will be a heavy burden to bear. In fact, the Qur'an tells us that each person who has faith and who adheres to his or her conscience is responsible to struggle on behalf of those who have been oppressed: What reason could you have for not fighting in the Way of God - for those men, women, and children who are oppressed and say: "Our Lord, take us out of this city whose inhabitants are wrongdoers! Give us a protector from You! Give us a helper from You!" (Qur'an, 4:75) The responsibility borne by those who hear this command and wish to rush to the aid of those experiencing cruelty is that explained by: "Let there be a community among you who call to the good, enjoin the right, and forbid the wrong. They are the ones who have success" (Qur'an, 3:104). This responsibility is to invite all people to believe in God and experience the beauty of religious morality, and to wage an intellectual struggle against all ideologies that are hostile to God's religion and the Qur'an's ethics

81 Mankind! We created you from a male and female, and made you into peoples and tribes so that you might come to know each other. The noblest among you in God's sight is the one who best performs his duty; God is All-Knowing, All-Aware. (Qur'an, 49:13) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JEWS AGAINST ISRAELI TERRORISM This book does not oppose and criticize Judaism or Jews, but rather the racist Zionist ideology and its defenders. All the tragedy that has happened - and continues to happen - in Palestine is traceable to the application of the Zionist ideology by its leaders. It is Zionism that causes the Israeli army to fire rockets on children playing in schoolyards; sprays bullets on women harvesting their gardens' crops; and makes torture, violence, and skirmishes daily parts of Palestinian life. Author Israel Shahak approaches Jewish history from a different point of view in his classic work Jewish History, Jewish Religion, and the Weight of Three Thousand Years. Throughout the world today, quite a few intellectuals, politicians, and historians oppose Zionism. Various Christian and Jewish thinkers and authors condemn it and the Israeli governments' Zionist policies, as do various academics in Israeli universities such as the late Israel Shahak or Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi, who criticize Israeli violence directed against Palestinians and who maintain that peace can be acheived only when Israel forsakes its Zionist ideology. Noam Chomsky, himself a Jew, has written many books and articles that are highly critical of Zionism and the policies of those countries that support it. A group of Jewish academics, the self-proclaimed "new historians," has been exposing the "sacred lies" embedded in official Israeli policy, and the truths associated with them, since the early 1980s. Its members, namely, Benny Morris, Ilan Pappe, Avi Shlaim, Tom Segev, Baruch Kimmerling, Simha Flappan, and Joel Miqdal, are provoking strong reactions from Jews with Zionist leanings. They deal with the following "sacred lies": Arabs are racially inferior to Jews, Israel is a small country trying to survive in a region surrounded by enemies, all Palestinians are terrorists who want to destroy Israel, and these crazy terrorists deserve every kind of retaliation. Tom Segev, for example, one of the most prominent of these "new historians," has this to say of Israel's "official" history: "Until very recently, we did not have real history in this country; we had mythology."2 This just criticism, once offered only by Muslim academics and scholars, is now being expressed more loudly by many Jewish and Christian academics who are attempting to evaluate history in an unbiased manner. These people, having witnessed the horrors of the Zionist ideology, see it as yet another of the colonialist ideologies founded in nineteenth-century racism. They give no credence to the myth that Israel is "a small and lonely country, surrounded by enemies who want to destroy it." To the contrary: Israel, through its actions, has proven to be a violent country that follows a policy of oppression and aggression. Gideon Levy, a writer for Israel's Ha'aretz newspaper, defends the decipherement of the "sacred lies" in his review of Professor Benny Morris' book Correcting a Mistake: Jews and Arabs in Palestine/Israel, 1936-1956. After reading the details of the Zionist terror described in the book, and substantiated through eyewitness testimony and secret recordings, Levy wrote: A majority of Israeli children begin learning Zionist ideology at a very young age. The ideology's racist interpretations have a very negative effect upon them. Oh, we were so good (and did so many bad things). We were so right (and caused so many injustices). We were so beautiful (and our actions resulted in so much ugliness). And oh, we were so innocent and spread so many lies - lies and half-truths that we told ourselves and the rest of the world. We, who were born afterward, weren't told the whole truth; they only taught us the good parts, of which there were many. But, after all, there were also dark chapters which we heard nothing about.3 Israel Shahak, a Polish-born Jewish chemistry professor who spent 40 years in Israel and passed away in 2001, criticizes Israel's Zionist anti-human rights policies. In his book Jewish History, Jewish Religion, and the Weight of Three Thousand Years, Shahak describes the extent to which Zionism constitutes a threat to humanity: In my view, Israel as a Jewish state constitutes a danger not only to itself and its inhabitants, but to all Jews and to all other peoples and states in the Middle East and beyond.4 Ilan Pappe, who says of himself "I am the most hated Israeli in Israel," is a famous Jewish academic who shares the views of the new historians. When asked in an interview why Israelis fail to notice the cruelty done to Palestinians, the answer he gives is quite thought-provoking: It is the fruits of a very long process of indoctrination starting in the kindergarten, accompanying all Jewish boys and girls throughout their life. You don't uproot easily such an attitude which was planted there by a very powerful indoctrination machine, giving a racist perception of the other, who is described as primitive, almost non-existing, hostile -- he is hostile, but the explanation given is that he was born primitive, Islamic, anti-Semite, not that someone has taken his land.5 But these thinkers, strategists, and writers have more in common than just their opposition to Zionism. The most important common denominator between them is that each has been accused of anti-Semitism. Anyone who has used historical facts and documents about events occuring in Palestine and then written an article or book criticizing Zionism has been accused of being anti-Semitic. The latest example is the British television channel BBC. The crew members who were preparing a documentary about the 1982 massacres in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, as well as the station directors who broadcast it, were accused of anti-Semitism by the Israeli government. This, actually, is a technique used by Zionists and pro-Zionists for slandering and neutralizing those who criticize Zionism. Zionists have even devised a term to slander such Jews: "self-hating Jew." This term also is used to describe Jews who criticize Israel, aiming to present them as traitors suffering from some psychological dilemma. Zionists who make such claims, no doubt, seek to sabotage the work of their opponents. In fact, such race-based accusations, especially when leveled at Muslims, are groundless and illogical, for no Muslim, due to his or her beliefs, can defend any racist thought or viewpoint. Indeed, this is borne out by history. The Islamic world has never seen anything like the medieval European practices of the Inquisition, which grew out of religious fanaticism, and the more recent outbreaks of anti-Semitism (born of racist beliefs) in the Soviet Union, Eastern Europe, and Nazi Germany. The clash between Jews and Muslims in the Middle East, which continues until this day, is the result of some Jews' adherence to Zionism's racist and anti-religious ideology, not of the actions of Muslims. Israeli Soldiers Refusing To Serve in Occupied Territory Following the 1967 war, Yeshayahu Leibowitz, one of Israel's leading intellectuals, warned that Israel must withdraw from the Occupied Territories in order to stop the bloodshed. He wrote that the only way to avert destruction from the Israelis might be for 500 soldiers stationed in the Occupied Territories to have the courage to say "we don't want to serve here" and to withdraw.6 In the days when the al-Aqsa Intifada (starting from September 2000) and the Israeli retaliation were growing more and more violent, a group of Israeli soldiers acted upon his proposal. In mid-January 2002, approximately 25 soldiers signed an open letter to the Israeli press reporting that they were refusing to serve in the Occupied Territories. This refusal was not without precedent, for during the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, a smaller group of soldiers had refused to serve in the Israeli army, saying that they did not want to be part of the genocide being perpetrated against Lebanese civilians. The actions of these soldiers, later called Yesh Gvul (There is a Limit), culminated with their imprisonment. Those soldiers who made their public statement in January 2002 did not face any punitive sanctions yet, and as of February 2002, their numbers had reached 250. Moreover, this time they received a great deal of support from peace groups, non-governmental organizations, religious leaders, and ordinary Israelis and Palestinians. In their statement, the soldiers contend that the Israeli army has acted brutally and mercilessly toward the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories, that what is happening there violates human dignity, and that, furthermore, it has nothing to do with defending Israel. They continue: "We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve, and humiliate an entire people." In his statement to an Israeli newspaper, a signatory named Shuki Sadeh explains how he witnessed Israeli soldiers open fire on Palestinian children. He explains how he felt at the time: "What angered me at the time was that our soldiers said: 'Well, that's another Arab who has disappeared.' " Ariel Shatil, an artillery master sergeant recalled that while it is claimed that the Palestinians shoot first and Israelis just respond, in reality, "We would start shooting and they would fire back." In a brochure that they prepared to warn their colleagues who continued to serve in the region, the soldiers stated: When you take part in extrajudicial killings ("liquidation," in the army's terms), when you take part in demolishing residential homes, when you open fire at unarmed civilian population or residential homes, when you uproot orchards, when you interdict food supplies or medical treatment, you are taking part in actions defined in international conventions (such as the 4th Geneva Convention) and in Israeli law as war crimes.7 A soldier named Asaf Oron, who took a long time to decide not to serve, reports that he witnessed extremely brutal practices while serving in the region. He explains what he experienced and what he sees as the solution: Already on the bus ride to the Gaza strip, the soldiers were competing with each other: whose "heroic" tales of murderous beatings during the Intifada were better (in case you missed this point: the beatings were literally murderous: beating to death)... As time went by, as the level of insanity, hatred, and incitement kept rising, as the generals were turning the Israeli Defense Forces into a terror organization... And then I discovered that I was not alone Â… we all believe in God... We believe that there is no room for the tribal code, that the tribal code simply camouflages idolatry, an idolatry of a type we should not cooperate with. Those who let such a form of idol worship take over will end up as burnt offerings themselves.8 An Excerpt from the Soldiers' Open Letter We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides. We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country. We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF's human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society. We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end. We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements. We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people. We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel's defense. The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose - and we shall take no part in them. Britain's Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks' Views on Israel One very strong criticism from within the Jewish community against Israeli policies has come from Prof. Jonathan Sacks, Britain's Chief Rabbi. In aninterview, published in The Guardian on August 27, 2002, Sacks sternly criticized Israel, arguing that the country was adopting a stance "incompatible" with the deepest ideals of Judaism, and that the current conflict with the Palestinians was "corrupting" Israeli society. Sacks, who became the chief rabbi of Britain's Orthodox Jews in 1991, and who has been the leader of a Jewish community of 280,000 in the country, is known as a loyal supporter of Israel and a veteran who has worked for the establishment of peace in the region. "I regard the current situation as nothing less than tragic. It is forcing Israel into postures that are incompatible in the long run with our deepest ideals" said Sacks. He added that "there are things that happen on a daily basis which make me feel very uncomfortable as a Jew." He went on to say that he was "profoundly shocked" at the reports of Israeli soldiers smiling while posing for photographs with the corpses of slain Palestinians.a The chief Rabbi's denouncement of Israeli savagery in the name of Judaism reminds us an important fact: It is not permitted for either a true Muslim or a true Jew to shed innocent blood. All divine religions forbid violence, war, and unjust murder, and command peace and the helping to those in need. Jonathan Sacks also noted that Israelis, who have lived centuries in dispersion, should very well understand the plight of Palestinians: You cannot ignore a command that is repeated 36 times in the Mosaic books: 'You were exiled in order to know what it feels like to be an exile.' I regard that as one of the core projects of a state that is true to Judaic principle. b In the same interview, Sacks also answered the questions about a secret meeting he held in 2000 with Abdullah Javadi-Amoli, one of the highest-ranking clerics of Iran, during a conference of religious leaders, and noted, interestingly: We established within minutes a common language, because we take certain things very seriously: we take faith seriously, we take texts seriously. It's a particular language that believers share. c The chief rabbi Sacks' words are an example of the peaceful dialogue that must be established between Muslims and Jews (and, of course, Christians). All three faiths have enjoined justice, honesty, the rescue of the oppressed, and peace and love. The adherents of all the three faiths believe in God, love the same prophets; there should be no hostility between them. a Jonathan Freedland, "Israel Set On Tragic Path, Says Chief Rabbi", The Guardian, August27, 2002 b Jonathan Freedland, "Israel Set On Tragic Path, Says Chief Rabbi", The Guardian, August27, 2002 c Jonathan Freedland, "Israel Set On Tragic Path, Says Chief Rabbi", The Guardian, August27, 2002 (Top) RADIKAL-Turkish Daily, 18.2.02 PEACE REVOLT IN THE ARMY The revolt among Israeli soldiers refusing to go to the Occupied Territories is growing. The country's best-known military family has joined the ranks of those saying, "The occupation is debasing us." The refusal of some Israeli soldiers to serve in the Occupied Territories resonated in the Western media. Many newspapers and magazines reported upon their protest. While The Nation approached this issue under the headline "An Antiwar Movement Grows in Israel," the Houston Chronicle used one of the soldiers' own words to lead its piece: "Israeli soldier: My moral objection to occupation." On the web site that the soldiers have started to bring their voices to the world, they encourage sincere Jews to avoid violence and animosity, because these have been forbidden by God. (http://www.seruv.org.il/YahadutEng.asp) (Left) AKIT - Turkish Daily, 23.5.01 EVEN JEWS OPPOSE THE OCCUPATION The campaign in Israel against Jewish settlements has slowly begun growing in influence. The latest polls have revealed that 61% of the public support the halting of settlement construction. The figure was 55% in the previous poll. The illegal settlements established on Palestinian land have been protested not only by Muslims, but by Christians and Jews as well. The demonstrations shown above, as well as others, were dispersed violently by Israeli forces. The Israeli government's practices are being criticized not only by Palestinian Muslims, but also by peace-loving Jews all over the world, who arrange frequent protests. Ghada Karmi: "I am a Palestinian Arab. I was born in Jerusalem. Palestine is my homeland. But I cannot return there." Location: Israeli Embassy, London 1973 Ellen Siegel: "I am an American Jew. I was born in the U.S.A. Israel is not my homeland. But I can 'return' there." Location: Israeli Embassy, London 1992 The Islamic View of the Jews Every Muslim feels a natural and legitimate response to the Zionist practice of terror upon Palestinians. However, it is necessary here, as in all matters, to stand for justice and act without prejudice. Every Muslim is obligated to prevent the cruel or unjust treatment of innocent Jews, even as he or she opposes Zionist Jews. Anti-Semitism, like all forms of racism, is contrary to the morals of Islam. Muslims should oppose every type of genocide, torture, and cruelty, and do not discriminate on the basis of religion, race, or ethnicity. Muslims should not approve of the slightest unjust attack against Jews, nor against any other race, but rather condemn it. The Qur'an condemns those who sow discord, treat others cruelly, and murder innocent people. Thus, legitimate opposition to Zionism must never take the form of blanket enmity toward Jews. As we read in the Qur'an, God considers it a thing of beauty that humanity is composed of many peoples. However, such racist ideologies as Zionism prevent people of different races, languages, and religions from living together in peace. At the same time, other examples of racism (i.e., toward black Africans) are also deviations resulting from superstition and various ideologies outside the divinely revealed religions. Such deviations defend varieties of thought and social models that contrast starkly with the morals of the Qur'an. At the root of anti-Semitism are feelings of hatred, violence, and mercilessness. The Qur'an, on the other hand, teaches humility, love of others, compassion, and mercy. It commands Muslims to be just, and, if necessary, forgiving, even to their enemies: "O you who believe! Show integrity for the sake of God, bearing witness with justice. Do not let hatred for a people incite you into not being just. Be just. That is closer to faith. Heed God (alone). God is aware of what you do." (Qur'an, 5: Moreover, "if someone kills another person - unless it is in retaliation for someone else or for causing corruption in the earth - it is as if he had murdered all mankind" (Qur'an, 5:32). For this reason, the murder of even one innocent person is a crime that cannot be understated. The reason for different races and peoples on Earth is not to cause strife or war, but rather to display variety, which is the beauty of God's creation and a cultural bounty. People's physical differences are of no importance to God, and all Muslims know very well that the only superiority is that of godliness. God states this truth in the following verse: Mankind! We created you from a male and female, and made you into peoples and tribes so that you might come to know each other. The noblest among you in God's sight is the one of you who best performs his duty. God is All-Knowing, All-Aware. (Qur'an, 49:13) Just as the Qur'an does not distinguish among races and ethnicities, people of different faiths are encouraged to live in peace and harmony within the same community. Another basic Qur'anic teaching is that people should not be sentenced as a group because they belong to a certain race, people, or religion. There are good and bad people within each community;this is a fact which the Qur'an points out. For example, after explaining that part of the People of the Book is rebellious toward God and religion, God mentions the following exception in the Qur'an: They are not all the same. There is a community among the People of the Book who are upright. They recite God's Signs throughout the night, and they prostrate. They believe in God and the Last Day, enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and compete in doing good. They are among the righteous. You will not be denied the reward for any good thing you do. God is aware of the heedful. (Qur'an, 3:113-115) As a result, given that Muslims fear God and consider the criteria of the Qur'an, they cannot harbor hostility toward the Jews on religious grounds. For this reason, our examination of the clash between the Israelis and the Palestinians is undertaken with this point in mind. It is not directed against Jews and Judaism, but against the Zionist ideology that has steered some of their leaders to form and maintain a racist, violent government. harun yahya palestine

82 Mankind! We created you from a male and female, and made you into peoples and tribes so that you might come to know each other. The noblest among you in God's sight is the one who best performs his duty; God is All-Knowing, All-Aware. (Qur'an, 49:13) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUSLIM PALESTINE Since the beginning of Islamic history, Palestine, and the city of Jerusalem in particular, has been sacred to Muslims. In contrast to Jews and Christians, Muslims have made their regard for the sacredness of Palestine an opportunity to bring peace to the region. In this chapter, we will address some historical examples of this fact. 'Isa (Jesus), one of the prophets sent to the Jews, marks another important turning point in Jewish history. The Jews rejected him, and then were driven from Palestine and subjected to great misfortunes. His followers became to be known as Christians. However, the religion that is called Christianity today would be founded by another man, called Paul (Saul of Tarsus). He added his own personal vision of Jesus into the original teaching and formulated a new doctrine in which Jesus was not defined as a prophet and messiah - as he was - but as a divine figure. After two and a half centuries of dispute among the Christians, Paul's teaching turned into the doctrine of Trinity. It was a distortion of the teaching of Jesus and his early followers. After this, God revealed the Qur'an to Prophet Muhammad, may God bless him and grant him peace, so that he could teach Islam - the religion of Abraham, Moses and Jesus - to all of humanity. Jerusalem is sacred to Muslims for two reasons: it is the first qibla that Muslims faced during their ritual prayers, and it is the site of what is considered to be one of the greatest miracles performed by the Prophet Muhammad: the mi'raj, the night journey from al-Masjid al-Haram in Mecca to al-Masjid al-Aqsa in Jerusalem, his ascent through the heavens, and his return to al-Masjid al-Haram. The Qur'an recounts this event as follows: Glory be to Him who took His servant on a journey by night from the Masjid al-Haram to the Masjid al-Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, in order to show him some of Our Signs. He is the All-Hearing, the All-Seeing. (Qur'an, 17:1) In the Qur'anic accounts of the Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace, most of the relevant verses refer to Palestine as being "blessed, holy lands." Verse 17:1 describes the site upon which the Masjid al-Aqsa is located as the land "whose surroundings We have blessed." In verse 21:71, which describes the exodus of Prophets Ibrahim and Lut, the same lands are referred to as "the land which We had blessed for all beings." At the same time, Palestine as a whole is important to Muslims because so many Jewish prophets lived and fought for God, sacrificed their lives, or died and were buried there. Thus, it is no wonder that, in the past 2,000 years, Muslims have been the only power to bring peace to Jerusalem and Palestine. Caliph Umar Brings Peace and Justice to Palestine Qubbat as-Sakhrah After Rome expelled the Jews out of Palestine, Jerusalem and its environs became abandoned. However, Jerusalem once again became a center of interest after the Roman Emperor Constantine accepted Christianity (312). Roman Christians built churches in Jerusalem, and transformed it into a Christian city. Palestine remained Roman (Byzantine) territory until the seventh century, when it became part of the Persian Empire for a short time. Eventually, the Byzantines reclaimed it. The year 637 represents an important turning point in Palestine's history, for after this it came under Muslim control. This event brought peace and harmony to Palestine, which for centuries had been the scene of wars, exile, looting and massacre. Moreover, every time it changed hands, which was rather frequent, it witnessed new brutalities. Under Muslim rule, however, its inhabitants, regardless of their beliefs, would live together in peace and harmony. Palestine was conquered by Umar ibn al-Khattab, the second caliph. When he entered Jerusalem, the tolerance, maturity, and kindness he showed to the area's inhabitants, regardless of their religion, marked the beginning of a beautiful new age. A leading British commentator on religion Karen Armstrong describes the capture of Jerusalem by Umar in these terms in her book Holy War: The Caliph Omar entered Jerusalem mounted on a white camel, escorted by the magistrate of the city, the Greek Patriarch Sophronius. The Caliph asked to be taken immediately to the Temple Mount and there he knelt in prayer on the spot where his friend Mohammed had made his Night Journey. The Patriarch watched in horror: this, he thought, must be the Abomination of Desolation that the Prophet Daniel had foretold would enter the Temple; this must be Antichrist who would herald the Last Days. Next Omar asked to see the Christian shrines and, while he was in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the time for Muslim prayer came round. Courteously the Patriarch invited him to pray where he was, but Omar as courteously refused. If he knelt to pray in the church, he explained, the Muslims would want to commemorate the event by erecting a mosque there, and that would mean that they would have to demolish the Holy Sepulchre. Instead Omar went to pray at a little distance from the church, and, sure enough, directly opposite the Holy Sepulchre there is still a small mosque dedicated to the Caliph Omar. The other great mosque of Omar was erected on the Temple Mount to mark the Muslim conquest, together with the mosque al-Aqsa which commemorates Mohammed's Night Journey. For years, the Christians had used to the site of the ruined Jewish Temple as the city rubbish dump. The Caliph helped his Muslims to clear the garbage with his own hands and there Muslims raised their two shrines to establish Islam in the third most holy city in the Islamic world.9 In short, Muslims brought civilization to Jerusalem and all of Palestine. Instead of holding beliefs that showed no respect for other peoples' sacred values and killing people simply because they followed a different faith, Islam's just, tolerant, and moderate culture brought peace and harmony to the region's Muslim, Christian, and Jewish communities. Muslims never resorted to campaigns of forced conversions, although some non-Muslims who saw that Islam was the true religion did convert of their own free will. This peace and harmony lasted as long as Muslims ruled in the region. However, at the end of the eleventh century, an external conquering force from Europe entered the region and plundered the civilized land of Jerusalem with a barbarity and savagery that had never been seen there before. These invaders were the Crusaders. The Crusaders' Savagery and Saladin's Justice The Crusaders captured Jerusalem after a five-week siege, and proceeded to loot the city's treasures and slaughter its Jews and Muslims. While Palestine's Jews, Christians, and Muslims were living together in peace, the Pope decided to organize a crusade. Following Pope Urban II's call on 27 November 1095 at the Council of Clermont, more than 100,000 Europeans set out for Palestine to "free" the Holy Land from the Muslims and find the fabled wealth of the East. After a long and wearying journey, and much plundering and slaughter along the way, they reached Jerusalem in 1099. The city fell after a siege of nearly 5 weeks. When the Crusaders moved in, they carried out a savage slaughter. All of Jerusalem's Muslims and Jews were put to the sword. In the words of one historian: "They killed all the Saracens and the Turks they found ... whether male of female."10 One of the Crusaders, Raymond of Aguiles, boasted of this violence: Wonderful sights were to be seen. Some of our men (and this was more merciful) cut off the heads of their enemies; others shot them with arrows, so that they fell from the towers; others tortured them longer by casting them into the flames. Piles of heads, hands and feet were to be seen in the streets of the city. It was necessary to pick one's way over the bodies of men and horses. But these were small matters compared to what happened at the Temple of Solomon, a place where religious services are normally chanted ... in the Temple and porch of Solomon, men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins.11 Saladin (Salah ud-Din al-Ayyubi), who defeated the Crusaders in the battle of Hattin, was noted in historical sources for his justice, courage, and honorable character. In 2 days, the Crusader army killed some 40,000 Muslims in the barbaric manner just described.12 The peace and harmony in Palestine, which had lasted since Umar, ended in a terrible slaughter. The Crusaders made Jerusalem their capital and established a Latin Kingdom stretching from Palestine to Antioch. But their rule was short-lived, for Saladin gathered all of the Muslim kingdoms under his banner in a holy war and defeated the Crusaders at the battle of Hattin in 1187. After this battle, the two leaders of the Crusader army, Reynald of Chatillon and King Guy, were brought into Saladin's presence. He executed Reynald of Chatillon, who had become infamous for the terrible savagery he had committed against Muslims, but let King Guy go, as he had not committed similar crimes. Palestine once again saw the true meaning of justice. Three months after Hattin, and on the very same day that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had been taken from Mecca to Jerusalem for his night journey through the heavens, Saladin entered Jerusalem and freed it from 88 years of Crusader occupation. In contrast to the Crusaders' "liberation" of Jerusalem, Saladin did not touch one Christian in the city, thereby turning aside their fear that they would all be massacred. He merely ordered all Latin (Catholic) Christians to leave Jerusalem. The Orthodox Christians, who were not Crusaders, were allowed to stay and worship as they chose. Karen Armstrong describes the second capture of Jerusalem in these words: On 2 October 1187 Saladin and his army entered Jerusalem as conquerors and for the next 800 years Jerusalem would remain a Muslim city. Saladin kept his word, and conquered the city according to the highest Islamic ideals. He did not take revenge for the 1099 massacre, as the Qur'an advised (16:127), and now that hostilities had ceased he ended the killing (2:193-194). Not a single Christian was killed and there was no plunder. The ransoms were deliberately very low ... Saladin was moved to tears by the plight of families who were rent asunder and he released many of them freely, as the Qur'an urged, though to the despair of his long-suffering treasurers. His brother al-Adil was so distressed by the plight of the prisoners that he asked Saladin for a thousand of them for his own use and then released them on the spot... All the Muslim leaders were scandalised to see the rich Christians escaping with their wealth, which could have been used to ransom all the prisonersÂ… [The Patriarch] Heraclius paid his ten-dinar ransom like everybody else and was even provided with a special escort to keep his treasure safe during the journey to Tyre.13 In short, Saladin and his army treated the Christians with great mercy and justice, and showed them more compassion than their own leaders had. When King Richard I of England captured the Castle of Acre, he massacred the Muslims. The painting below depicts the executions of hundreds of Muslim captives. Their corpses and severed heads piled up beneath the platform. After Jerusalem, the Crusaders continued their barbarity and the Muslims their justice in other Palestinian cities. In 1194, Richard the Lionheart, who is portrayed as a great hero in British history, had 3,000 Muslims, among them many women and children, treacherously executed in the Castle of Acre. Although the Muslims witnessed this savagery, they never resorted to similar methods. Rather, they abided by God's command: "Let not the hatred of a people (who once) obstructed you from the Sacred Mosque lead you to transgress..." (Qur'an, 5:2) and never used violence against innocent civilians. In addition, they never used violence unnecessarily, not even against the defeated Crusader armies. Crusader savagery and Muslim justice once more revealed a historic truth: An administration built upon the principles of Islam allowed people of different faiths to live together. This fact continued to be demonstrated for 800 years after Saladin, particularly during the Ottoman period. The Ottoman Empire's Just and Tolerant Rule After Sultan Selim's conquest of Jerusalem and its environs in 1514, a 400-year period of peace and security began on Palestinian lands. In 1514, Sultan Selim captured Jerusalem and the surrounding area, and some 400 years of Ottoman rule in Palestine began. As in other Ottoman states, this period would enable Palestine to enjoy peace and stability despite the fact that adherents of three different faiths were living alongside each other. The Ottoman Empire was administered by the "nation (millet) system," the fundamental feature of which was that people of different faiths were allowed to live according to their own beliefs and legal systems. Christians and Jews, which the Qur'an calls the People of the Book, found tolerance, security, and freedom in Ottoman lands. The most important reason for this was that, although the Ottoman Empire was an Islamic state administered by Muslims, it had no desire to force its citizens to adopt Islam. On the contrary, it sought to provide peace and security for non-Muslims and to govern them in such a way that they would be pleased with Islamic rule and justice. Other major states at the same time had far more cruder, oppressive, and intolerant systems of government. Spain could not tolerate the existence of Muslims and Jews on Spanish soil, two communities on which it inflicted great violence. In many other European countries, Jews were oppressed just for being Jews (e.g., they were forced to live in ghettoes), and were sometimes the victims of mass slaughter (pogroms). Christians could not even get along with each another: the fighting between Protestants and Catholics during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries turned Europe into a bloody battlefield. The Thirty Years War (1618-4 was one result of this conflict. As a result of that war, central Europe became a battleground, and in Germany alone, 5 million people (one-third of the population), perished. In contrast to these brutalities, the Ottoman Empire and other Muslim states established their rule upon the Qur'anic commands of tolerant, just and humane administration. The reason for the justice and civilization displayed by Umar, Saladin, the Ottoman sultans, and many Muslim rulers, which is accepted by the West today, was due to their faithfulness to the Qur'anic commands, some of which are as follows: God commands you to return to their owners the things you hold on trust and, when you judge between people, to judge with justice. How excellent is what God exhorts you to do. God is All-Hearing, All-Seeing. (Qur'an, 4:5 O you who believe, be upholders of justice, bearing witness for God alone, even against yourselves or your parents and relatives. Whether they are rich or poor, God is well able to look after them. Do not follow your own desires and deviate from the truth. If you twist or turn away, God is aware of what you do. (Qur'an, 4:135) Studies of Palestine during the late Ottoman period reveal an advanced level of welfare, trade, and industry throughout the region. God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you in the religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just toward them. God loves those who are just. (Qur'an, 60: If two parties of the believers fight, make peace between them. But if one of them attacks the other unjustly, fight the attackers until they revert to God's command. If they revert, make peace between them with justice and be even-handed. God loves those who are even-handed. (Qur'an, 49:9) There is a phrase used in politics such that "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." This means that everyone who acquires political power becomes somehow morally corrupted by the ensuing opportunities. This really applies to most people, because they shape their morality according to social pressure. In other words, they avoid immorality because they are afraid of society's disapproval or punishment. Authority grants them power, however, and decreases the importance of these social pressures upon them. As a result, they become corrupt or find it ever more easy to compromise their own morality. If they possess absolute power (and thereby become dictators), they may try to satisfy their own desires in any way. The Ottomans brought peace, stability, and civilization to all the lands they conquered. One can still find fountains, bridges, inns, and mosques from the Ottoman period throughout Palestine. (Left) Herogate, 16th century (Right) Khan al-Umdan The only human examples to which the law of corruption does not apply is people who sincerely believe in God, embrace religion out of fear and love of Him, and live according to that religion. Given that their morals are not defined by society, not even the most absolute form of power can affect them. God states in a verse: Those who, if We establish them firmly in the land, will perform prayer and pay charity tax, and command what is right and forbid what is wrong. The end result of all affairs is with God. (Qur'an, 22:41) In the Qur'an, God presents Dawud, peace be upon him, as an example of the ideal ruler, explains how he judged with justice between those who came to ask for his judgment and how he prayed with complete submission to God. (Qur'an, 38:24) The Ottomans brought peace, order, and tolerance everywhere they went. The history of Islam, which reflects the morality that God teaches Muslims in the Qur'an, is full of just, merciful, humble, and mature rulers. Since Muslim rulers fear God, they cannot behave in a corrupt, proud, or cruel manner. Of course there were Muslim rulers who became corrupt and departed from Islamic morality, but they were exceptions to and deviations from the norm. Thus Islam proved to be the only belief system that has produced a just, tolerant, and compassionate form of government for the last 1,400 years. The land of Palestine is a testament to Islam's fair and tolerant governance, and bears the influence of many different faiths and ideas. As reported earlier, the governments of the Prophet Muhammad, may God bless him and grant him peace, Umar, Saladin, and the Ottoman sultans were such that even non-Muslims consented to them. This period of fair administration lasted until the twentieth century when, with the end of Muslim rule in 1917, the region was plunged into chaos, terror, bloodshed, and war. Jerusalem, the center of three religions, experienced the longest period of stability in its history under the Ottomans, when peace, abundance, and prosperity reigned there and throughout the empire. Christians, Jews, and Muslims, and their various denominations, worshipped as they pleased, honored their own beliefs, and followed their own customs and traditions. This was possible because the Ottomans ruled with the belief that bringing order, justice, peace, prosperity, and tolerance to their lands was a sacred obligation. Many historians and political scientists have drawn attention to this fact. One of them is Columbia University's world-famous Middle East expert Professor Edward Said. Originally from a Christian family of Jerusalem, he continues his research at American universities, far from his homeland. In an interview with the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, he recommended resurrecting the "Ottoman nation system" if a permanent peace is to be built in the Middle East. In his own words, A Jewish minority can survive the way other minorities in the Arab world survivedÂ… it worked rather well under the Ottoman Empire, with its millet system. What they had then seems a lot more humane than what we have now.14 Indeed, Palestine never witnessed another "humane" administration once Ottoman rule ended. Between the two world wars, the British crushed the Arabs with their divide-and-conquer strategy and simultaneously empowered the Zionists, who would later prove antagonistic even to them. Zionism incurred the Arabs' wrath, and, from the 1930s on, Palestine became the scene of clashes between the two groups. Zionists formed terrorist groups to fight the Palestinians, and, shortly thereafter, began attacking the British as well. Once Britain threw up its hands and abandoned its mandate over the region in 1947, the clashes turned into war and the Israeli occupation and massacres (which continue to this day) began in earnest. In order for the region to enjoy "humane" rule once again, Jews must abandon Zionism and its goal of a "Palestine exclusively for the Jews," and accept the idea of sharing the land with Arabs on equal terms. Arabs, for that matter, must abandon such un-Islamic goals as "driving Israel into the sea" or "putting all Jews to the sword," and accept the idea of living together with them. According to Said, this means reviving the Ottoman system, which is the only solution that will allow the region's people to live in peace and harmony. This system may create an environment of regional peace and security, just as it did in the past. In the last chapter, we will examine the details of this solution. But before we do so, let's revisit the past to examine the chaos and cruelty that engulfed Palestine after Muslim rule ended harun yahya plaestine POP you should read books by harun yahya it might cool off some of the sterotypical, racist thoughts you harbour about your mind in your head P.S when you reply don't swear coz i am 14 year old kid with better things to do than readthrough a bunch of f****

83 ALLAH HU AKBAR -- Freedom of speech and no matter how much abnyone tries denoncing ISLAM they can't hide the fact that ISLAM is the world. weathe ryou like it or not ISLAM is the fastest growing religon in the wor. AMeRICA anad EURope aRET TURNING MUSLIM, PAUSE FOR A MOMENT AND ASK YOURSELF WHY????????????? Islam’s presence in Australia predates European settlement. In the early 16th century, Makassan fishermen from the east Indonesian archipelago were the first Muslims to visit Australia and trade with the indigenous Aboriginal community. In the 19th century, Afghan Muslim camel drivers played an important role in the exploration and opening up of the interior of the Australian continent. Today, Islam is one of the fastest growing faiths in Australia, and Muslims are a vital and integral part of the rich mosaic of Australian society. In the past 25 years, the Australian Muslim community has significantly expanded. According to the 2001 census, the Muslim community constituted 281,578 people, an increase of 40 percent since the 1996 census and an overall rise of 91 percent in the last decade. And these figures may be very conservative. Some recent estimates suggest Australian Muslims now number between 350,000-450,000. Australian Muslims are ethnically diverse and come from a wide range of backgrounds and cultures. Some 35 percent of Australian Muslims were born in Australia, and the rest immigrated to Australia from over 70 different countries, including Lebanon, Turkey, Indonesia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. Muslim in America: With some 6 million U.S. followers, Islam is one of the nation's fastest-growing faiths by Marc Ramirez Seattle Times staff reporter Born in Pennsylvania of Greek descent, Maria Al-Haddad of Everett distinguishes herself by wearing the head scarf worn by many Muslim women to comply with rules of modesty. But when she goes shopping with Muslim friends who don't wear one, Al-Haddad says, salesclerks often either ignore her or single her out for identification checks. In Tukwila, Aziz Junejo says his white, American mother, also wearing traditional Islamic dress, was chased in a parking lot after the 1995 bombing of Oklahoma City's federal building with taunts of "You Muslim - go home!" In Redmond, the Palestinian parents of 7-year-old Amir Shabaneh say his classmates last year waved their lunches in his face during the Islamic holy month of Ramadan, unable to understand why he was fasting. And in Seattle, Umar Cook - who accepted Islam while in military service in the Gulf War - is suing his former employer, claiming the company violated his civil rights when it answered his request to attend important Friday prayer gatherings by firing him. Instances like these represent the emerging, sometimes rocky relationship between greater American society and Islam, a religion whose 1 billion-plus adherents make it the world's second most popular after Christianity. With an estimated 6 million U.S. followers, Islam is also one of America's fastest-growing faiths. Nevertheless, it remains misunderstood, often associated with terrorism, ethnic stereotypes and images of veiled, subservient women. Aside from Ramadan and - to the dismay of those who see their faith as one of peace and justice - acts of war and global terrorism, media exposure is virtually nonexistent. As a teacher at the Islamic School of Seattle says of the infrequent media calls: "Usually something blows up and they want a comment." But even with the incidents of misunderstanding and bias, Islam's growth in Washington state has been relatively peaceful. Over three decades, the Muslim population here has blossomed into a maturing community of about 25,000, by some estimates - the vast majority in the Puget Sound region. They represent a quilt of nations, neighborhoods and schools of thought whose binding thread is the holy book, the Koran. Immigrants make up 90 percent of this expanding quilt. They are Arab, Indonesian, Pakistani and Bosnian, East and North African, Southeast Asian, and American. The once-adequate Eastside Islamic Center, a two-story former office building, now bulges with 200 people for Friday prayers, their cars spilling over into the adjacent Mormon church parking lot. Elsewhere, from Everett to Olympia, Muslims cram into houses or storefronts designated as mosques. Not far from a bank and a Plaid Pantry gas stop, Iraqi Muslims gather in a former tailor shop off busy Everett Mall Way. In the early 1990s, they came by the planeload, refugees fleeing Saddam Hussein's regime. The community now numbers nearly 2,000, and a hundred kids show up on Sundays for instruction in Islam as well as Arabic, the language of the Koran. One evening in January, shoes were lined up outside like cars at a drive-in movie while, inside, the faithful gathered cross-legged on the carpet, men on one side of the room, women on the other. Butcher paper spread out before them, the group broke its all-day Ramadan fast with a meal of dates, lentil soup, and rice with chicken and raisins. In their native country, the men ranged from illiterate farmers to architects and agricultural engineers, but now they are assembly workers, gas-station operators and mechanics; the women, once teachers, seamstresses and housewives, are now primarily housewives. "We're lucky to have the freedom to practice our religion here," says Al-Haddad, who came to Islam through her work with the refugees. "You just wish people had a little more tolerance. We're going through the same thing all new communities go through. You're the new kid on the block. You're going to get beat up a few times before you're accepted." Just a few families, at first Nazeer Ahmed knows he's not in Kansas anymore. "Have you been to Kansas?" he asks in wide-eyed wonder. "It's flat." The son of Indian immigrants, Ahmed, 27, has the fidgety manner of a puppy. A computer consultant and acting editor of the Islamic Journal, he earned his master's degree in software engineering from Seattle University but started his college career at Wichita State. During Ramadan, the monthlong celebration of the Koran's seventh-century revelation to the prophet Mohammed, Muslims fast from dawn to sundown. Because Islam uses a lunar calendar, the celebration begins 11 days earlier every year. Having it fall during winter in Seattle (Dec. 20 to Jan. 19) was quite convenient, Ahmed admits. Summer in Kansas was a different story. "One time it was 16 hours between sunrise and sunset," he says. "Dang, it was long. Going without water was hardest." The Islamic Journal is run by volunteers out of a Central Area cubbyhole of an office. In 1994, the paper polled the community and published an Islamic phone directory with the results. The overall population was estimated between 15,000 and 18,000, with Indonesians and Pakistanis comprising nearly a third. Now Ahmed pegs the number at more than 20,000, although others say it's closer to 12,000 to 14,000. But consider: Nearly 6,000 people, mostly adults, packed Mercer Arena Tuesday for Eid al-Fitr, the celebration marking the end of Ramadan, and it's likely they had children waiting at home. The community started with just a few families 35 years ago. Aziz Junejo was a child then - the only one, he says, among those early families. At first, they met at a house in Ballard; then, as handfuls of University of Washington students from Egypt and Iraq and Syria joined, they moved to the basement of a University District church. Junejo, now a suave, well-known community figure who hosts a public-access cable show called "Focus on Islam," was only 6 at the time - but he fondly recalls those gatherings for their cosmopolitan flavor. "I really feel like this is my community," he says. "I'm the first Muslim kid who grew up here." His late father, Mushtaque, a Pakistani aeronautical engineer, came here from Indiana to work for Boeing's supersonic-transport program. In the early 1970s, Mushtaque and two other community pioneers, Iraqi immigrant Jamil Abdul Razzak and Egyptian-born Mohammed El-Moslimany, decided it was time for an official meeting place and bought a house near SeaTac. It was the first mosque in the area. The mid-1970s brought Muslim engineers here from places such as Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. More students came. Newly opened mosques were packed. In 1976, a wealthy Saudi benefactor, the father of Boeing's Saudi Airlines representative, funded construction of the first mosque built from the ground up, a multimillion-dollar project in Northgate that remains the area's largest. Idriss Mosque opened in 1981 despite complaints from neighbors about potential traffic and parking problems and "all these foreigners running around in the neighborhood," according to a memoir by Mushtaque Junejo. "Even now, on Fridays, I still tend to drive the 20 miles to go to that mosque," Aziz Junejo says. "It became a real center point." Since then, Muslim communities have sprouted from Olympia to Everett along Interstate 5. Most of the mosques serve distinct ethnic communities. In addition to Iraqis in Everett and other Arabs, Indians and Pakistanis on the Eastside, there are Middle Easterners in Northgate, East and North Africans in the Central Area and Southeast Asians in the Rainier Valley as well as outside Olympia. Along with Des Moines, Iowa, the Puget Sound area became a prime destination for so-called "boat people" from Cambodia in the 1980s. Many were Muslim Chams, a minority people driven from their Southeast Asian homelands. The mostly Cham Muslims in Lacey, outside Olympia, illustrate how some communities grow while observing religious requirements. The Chams began with a mobile-home park, designating one trailer a mosque and making announcements over the park's public-address system. Now, prefab homes are replacing mobile ones on 10 community-owned acres in a cooperative-financing strategy that avoids mortgages - and thus payment of interest, which Islam frowns upon. The Islamic Journal's Ahmed explains: Groups of families make payments into a general pool of money that after a certain time - say, six months - is used to buy a prefab home for about $20,000. One family moves in, the group starts over again and in another six months, they can buy a house for another family. "Within three to five years, they all have houses," Ahmed says. Some communities use the same method to purchase cars. Muslims mindful of Islamic requirements governing what one eats - pork and alcohol are prohibited, for instance - can also find a growing assortment of halal, or "lawful," markets around the Seattle area. For meat, the ritual of slaughter is important. Many Muslim families, especially before major holidays, slaughter their own cow or lamb or find someone to do it for them in the halal way. "This is something we've been doing since we were kids," Junejo says, remembering how his own family performed the ritual. "We're taught that meat doesn't just come from Safeway. You find the jugular vein. You never show the animal the knife. It takes one slice." In America, 'you choose' Some Muslims find America a place of spiritual rediscovery, not just because they are free to practice their faith but because they are free not to. "We believe you choose between good and evil," says Tayyibah Taylor, administrator of the Islamic School of Seattle. "If it's Ramadan, and all the restaurants are open, and you're the only one in your office who's not eating and you smell the food - the positive thing is, you're making the choice. Whereas in Muslim countries, nobody is eating. All the restaurants are closed. Here you really have to be responsible for your own spirituality." Overcoming the temptations of one's surroundings is one thing. Overcoming attitudes and misconceptions is another. Muslims here say their reputation has been damaged, even defined, by Islam's association with the terrorist acts of a zealous minority. Why is it, they wonder, that headlines don't refer to rebels in Northern Ireland as Catholic terrorists? "You'll find all kinds of extremists," says Naeem Sharif, who produces a Muslim-oriented cable TV show, "Community Issues Group." "Just like you'll find those who just put on the clothes. We have to look at the character of the prophet Mohammed. He wouldn't condone the kinds of things going on today. He wouldn't take hostages. He would promote peace." Women who wear the hijab are the most visible targets of misunderstanding. Hijab (pronounced hee-JOB) is an Arabic word meaning "head to toe covering," although it's commonly used also to refer to just the head scarf. Though some were verbally harassed after 1995's federal-building bombing, at least one suffered far worse: In Oklahoma City, a pregnant Muslim woman miscarried after people threw rocks through her window. Some Muslim women find the hijab generates pity from those who assume it translates into second-class status. Says Beth Mahmoud-Howell, who came to Islam five years ago: "We get these looks like, `There, there, honey - it must be so hard for you.' " Says Taylor, the Seattle Islamic school administrator: "During the Gulf War, I was in the supermarket, and I passed somebody and they said, `Oh, is that an Iraqi?' People are uneducated about Muslims, and the little education they have comes from a biased media. It's a recipe for disaster." In the workplace, the Washington, D.C.-based Council on American-Islamic Relations recorded more than 280 discrimination cases in the year preceding April 1998, a 13 percent increase over the year before. Most involved the hijab or requests for time or a place for prayer. Muslim immigrants working at a New York-based juice factory, for example, were forced to pray outside in winter weather after fellow employees complained the Muslims' midday prayer in the company lunchroom made them uncomfortable. The case was resolved last year and space for prayer was provided. The council's research director, Mohammed Nimer, says overt discrimination - rejecting job applicants upfront because of prayer-time requests or because they show up in the hijab - is decreasing. That's a result, he believes, of better-educated employers and heightened awareness among Muslims of their civil rights. But it has happened: "I found myself getting very little work when I wore the scarf," says Amira Atan, a Cambodian Cham employed as a King County interpreter. Now, like some other women, she only wears it among other Muslims. That's a source of debate even within the Muslim community itself. But there are other issues, too, as varying sects and schools of thought blend into the area's social fabric. "The community grows, and unfortunately, so does the division," says El-Moslimany, the 74-year-old community pioneer who now serves on the board of the Islamic School of Seattle. "There should be commonality in our goals." Only through unity, he says, can America's Muslims carry out the missions of their faith: "We are part of this country. It's our obligation to correct the wrong things and encourage and enhance the good things. That's a verse from the Koran." Says Junejo: "It's ironic, all the negative stereotypes. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. There must be something people are looking for." Marc Ramirez's phone message number is 206-464-8102. His e-mail address is: mramirez@seattletimes.com Copyright © 1999 Seattle Times Company

84 A bit long Eh Amad. Easy on the site or I'll delete the whole lot.

85 Is it me or do "Muslims" love "Rhetoric"??? Nice touching stories but a bit off the point don't ya think ? Where are the stories of "Muslims" confronting "Radicals" in the "Islamic World"? I could put up twice as many stories about "Westeners" in the "Islamic World" like the "British" born lady who lived in "Iraq" for 20+ yrs and had an "Iraqi" husband, she did great things for the people of "Iraq" and how was she rewarded by being kidnapped and killed by "Terrorists", that is the difference "Muslims/Terrorists" are killing people who are trying to help "Muslims", want to explain that to me ? And all your "POST's" show is how truly accepting the West is towards "Muslims"!! there is a bit in one of your posts about Discrimination you said 280 cases in a year and that had risen 13%, lol and you think that is bad??? there are millions of "Muslims" in this country and 280 Discrimination cases is bad ??? How many Discrimination cases are there against "Westeners" in the "Islamic World" ? Oh wait there arent any "Judicial" actions the "Westeners" can take,because more than likely they were killed !!!! Please,give me a break "Muslims" can walk around the "Western World" and feel safe, all they get are stares because of the "Radical Brethren" among you. Can we "Westeners" say the same about the "Islamic World"? Nope we are attacked and murdered all over the "Islamic World" As for the "IRA" ummm last time i checked they were a "Terrorist" group, they have their political wing just like the "PLO", but unlike the "PLO" they have rules when it comes to bombing, they warn the authorities before the bomb goes off so they can clear civilians!! and oh yeah the "IRA" no longer bombs things. So once again i ask myself what is your point??? I wonder what "Muslims" would do if "Christians" and "Jews" tried to hold workplace prayers in the "Islamic World", i think we all know what would happen dont we "Amaad"?

86 Oh almost forgot "Amaad" the reason Islam is the fastest growing Religion is not because of appeal, it is because "Muslims" breed like rats !!!(no "Muslims" i am not saying you are rats!) and that you have families that are "HUGE", It aint "Islam" m8 it is simple math "Muslims" are breeding more than any other religion, thus making it the fastest growing. Also "Muslims" are killing or trying to convert people all over the world(example the list i put up), take "Africa" for example Muslims there will wipe out a "Christian"/local non "Muslim" village then convert the survivors to Islam or re-settle other Muslims. Perhaps that is one of the problems with "Islam",so many new people so little recources, perhaps that is why so many young "Muslims" feel negelected you dont have the infastructure to provide for them. Is that why "Islam" has created "Suicide Bombers"? for population control ?

87 Sorry that i haven't been on the internet for a while POP for technical reasons but now i am back and ready for debating

88 before i start let me say :: this is a proven fact: hinduism has on average the largest no.of cildren per families AND on average 4438+ people convert to ( not born into) Islam each beautiful and golorius day just take this into account: CHRISTIANITY- 1.9+ billion followers(600 year head start on ISLAM) -ISLAM- 1.5+ billion followers CAtching up at the rate of 10:1. By 2012 muslims will outnumber christians - In America pre 9/11 48,000 (!wow! never knew that) people converted to ISLAM every year In america after 9/11 79,000 people convert to ISlam every year -Jesus ( peace be upon him) preached his message for 2.4 years and Muhammed ( peace be upon him) preached his message for 23 years -Jesus (pbuh) had 120 followers at the time of his death, Muhammed(pbuh) had millions - Muhammad confirmed Jesus and believed in him, as Jesus said to his disciples whilst in the Garden of Gethsemane that someone would come to confirm him Jesus said he came to the tribe of Israel only, Muhammad said he came to all mankind. The different denominations of Christianity don't agree with each other about Mary, Jesus, the trinity, the many versions and revisions of the Bible etc, whereas the different denominations of Islam agree that Muhammad is the final Prophet, Jesus is a Prophet and performed miracles, God is One and Only, and the exact Quran as at the time of Muhammad is still used today by all the denominations, and the originals are still available 10's of millions of Muslims have memorised the entire Quran all over the world, whereas no Christian has memorised the bible and if they did they would have to memorise their own version and would have to update their memorisations every time a new revision was released. The bible that we know today was written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John (who are they? Real name? Last name?) and Paul (Saul of Tarsus: A Christian Killer) who preached to the Gentiles which Jesus said not to do. None where direct disciples of Jesus. What is known as Apocrypha today is the Gospels that the Roman (Origin Pagans: worshiped many gods, human gods etc) Catholic Church wanted to destroy because it denies the trinity and the divinity of Jesus and reveals the coming of another (Muhammad). "Eg. The Gospel of Barnabas was accepted as a Canonical Gospel in the Churches of Alexandria till 325 C.E. In 325 C.E., the Nicene Council was held, where it was ordered that all original Gospels in Hebrew script should be destroyed. An Edict was issued that any one in possession of these Gospels will be put to death" (http://www.barnabas.net/ Jesus did not found Christianity and the Church (Paul did). Muhammad founded Islam. Muhammad taught a way of life from birth to death. Things as simple as one should sit down when they put their shoes on etc (This has been medically proven that putting your shoes on whilst standing and hunching causes lower back pain and to put water in your nose which has been scientifically proven to reduce brain damage). He taught every day life issues etc. The world as we know it today was influenced by Islam, scientifically, mathematically, medically, agriculturally as well as through art etc. Islam promoted education for both men and women whereas the Church forbade it and called it blasphemy and the penalty was death to anyone who would go against the Church (http://www.pbs.org/empires/islam/ a documentary by non-Muslim American historians and lecturers in religion) The Quran contains many scientific information that has been confirmed by science only in the last century. Would Muhammad have known all this stuff or is he a lucky guesser? e.g on pregnancy (human embroyic development) on mountains that they go beneath the earth and they stabilize the earths crust the universe ( that it was created from smoke and the big bang theory and the red rose nebulae the cerebum ( knowing that people lie from the front of their head) the miracle of seas and rivers on light and deep seas and internal waves on clouds and the Romans victory over the persians 9 yeears before it actualy happening

89 and let me ask YOU POP what religon are you? and how old are you? ( may allah bless even my enemies) you still haven't told me a RELIABLE website that shows muslims celebrating 9/11

90 Lucifer appears as an angel of light. If it was Gabriel why would Islam command that you do that which is offensive to God. Namely Idol worship. God is not in that box at Mecca. In fact why would the creator of the whole universe subject himself to living in a tiny little box. I've read your stuff now I'll send you mine and you read it.

91 i could hate christians for massacres in CHECNYA and BOSNIA and in UGANDA and in LEBANON I could hate JEWS for the SHERBA and SHETILLA massacres I could hate HINDUS for the GUJARAT massacres BUT i unlike you pop ( and most other people on this website)i know better than not to judge poeple on minority grops but individually ( like the saying goes 'don't judge a book by its cover' or 'don't judge Islam by the negative media) i must now go and to the mosque library and get some more info and hopefully when i come o this website tommorow i will have an answer from you to this question why do you judge a book by its

92 I don;'t hate the Koran or muslims what I distain is murder which is also an offense to God. All murderers go to hell. You have to ask yourself what was in mecca before Mohammad and what is in that box.

93 just so you know Ahmaad. I'm sorry I misspelled your name the other day. Not a put down. If you read the text I sent you, you will understand that I hate no one.

94 howie do you have a hotmail address??? ???????

95 GOD does not stuff himself in the box

96 ive got to gon now 2moro i shall have your answer

97 howie r on r u owner of this fine and wonderful blog

98 in that bos is is a few treasures from the time of our prophet and beyond.

99 wow i been gone a week and theres so much written here i dont even know where to start or where anyone has left off.

100 seems u ppl wrote stories rather than simple post

101 Howie Thanks for your enquiry into the K'aba or as you put it, the place where "the creator of the whole universe subjects himself to living in a tiny little box." I have gathered some information that i hope will prove valuable in removing any misinformation you have about the Ka'ba. The Ka’aba In the province of Hejaz in the western part of Arabia, not far from the Red Sea, there lies the town of Makka. In the centre of this town there is a small square building made of stones, about 60 feet long, 60 feet wide and 60 feet high. Since time immemorial this town and this stone built house has been known to world travellers. This is Baitullah, the House of Allah. Its sanctity and antiquity is older than history itself. Tradition goes that the Kaaba was ordained by Allah to be built in the shape of the House in Heaven called Baitul Ma’amoor. Allah in his infinite Mercy ordained a similar place on earth and Prophet Adam was the first to build this place. The Bible, in the Chapter of Genesis describes its building when God ordained Abraham to erect a Shrine for worship when Abraham was ordered to go to the Southern desert with his wife Hagera and infant son Ismael. The Old Testament describes this building as the Shrine of God at several places, but the one built at Ma’amoor is very much similar to the one at Makka. There is no doubt that it was referring to the stone built house at Makka. The holy Qura’an brought this story into the full light of history. In Sura 3 Verse 90, the holy Qura’an says “Allah has spoken the Truth, therefore follow the creed of Ibrahim, a man of pure faith and no idolater” The first house established for the people was at Makka, a Holy place and a guidance to all beings. Qora’an firmly establishes the fact that Ibrahim was the real founder of the Holy Shrine. When Prophet Ibrahim built the Holy Shrine in Makka, his prayers were that this place should remain a centre of worship for all good and pious people; that Allah should keep his family the custodians of the Holy place. Ever since, Ismael the son of Ibrahim who helped his father to build this place and his descendants remained the custodians of the Holy Shrine. History tells us that centuries passed and the guardianship of the Kaaba remained in the family of Ismael until the name of Abde Manaf came into the limelight. He inherited this service and made it much more prominent. His son Hashim took this leadership and extended it to many other towns of Hejaz so much so that many pilgrims flocked annually to this place and enjoyed Hashims’s hospitality. A feast was given in honour of the pilgrims, food and water was served to all guests by the family of Hashim. This prominence created jealousies and his brother Abdushams’ adopted son Ummayya tried to create trouble. There was a dispute in which Umayya failed and left Makka to settle down in the Northern provinces of Suria(Sham) currently known as Syria. After Hashim his brother Muttalib and after him Hashim’s son Shyba who became known as Abdul Muttalib assumed the leadership of the family. He organised feasts and supplies of water to the pilgrims during the annual festival of Pilgrimage to the Holy Shrine. Prophet Ibrahim built this House for devout worship to one God. But within his lifetime people disobeyed his orders and began to put idols inside the Kaaba. Ibrahim had to clean the House of these idols and of Idle worshippers. He told the people that this was a symbolic house of God. God does not live there for He is everywhere. People did not understand this logic and no sooner had Ibrahim died the people, out of reverence, filled the place with idols again. They thronged to this place annually and worshipped their personal gods, It was over Four Thousand years later that the last of the line of prophet (SA), Muhammad Ibne Abdullah entered Makka triumphantly, went inside the Ka’aba and, with the help of his cousin and son in law Ali Ibne Abi Talib, (AS) destroyed all the idols of Ka’aba with their own hands. At one stage of this destruction of idols, the tallest of the idol Hubbol was brought down after Ali had to stand on the shoulders of the Prophet to carry out God’s orders. The Prophet of Islam was reciting the Verse from the Qur’an “Truth hath come and falsehood hath vanished.” This was done in the 8th year of Hijra, January 630 AD after the bloodless victory at Makka by the Prophet of Islam. Historically when Ibrahim was ordered by Allah to build the Shrine for worship over a small he uncovered the original foundations of the Kaaba built by Adam. Ibrahim with the help of his son Ismael erected the new shrine on the same foundations. Originally it contained only four walls without a roof . Centuries later during the timeof Kusayi who was the leader of the Tribe of Quraish in Makka a taller building was completed with a roof and a quadrangle wall around it to give it the shape of a sanctuary and doors all around the sanctuary walls. People entered through these doors to come to the Ka’aba for worship. It is now about 60 feet high, 60 feet wide from east to west and 60 feet from north to south. A door is fixed about 7 feet above ground level facing North East. A Black stone (Hajar al Aswad) was fixed into its eastern corner. In front of the building was Maqame Ibrahim, the arch shape gate known as that of Banu Shayba and the Zamzam Well. Just outside are the Hills called Safa and Merwa and the distance between the hills is about 500 yards. These days both of the hills are enclosed into the sanctuary walls with a roof over it. The whole building is built of the layers of grey blue stone from the hills surrounding Makka. The four corners roughly face the four points of the compass. At the East is the Black stone (Rukn el Aswad), at the North is el Ruken el Iraqi, at the west al Rukne el Shami and at the south al Rukne el Yamani. The four walls are covered with a curtain (Kiswa). The kiswa is usually of black brocade with the Shahada outlined in the weave of the fabric. About 2/3rd’s of the way up runs a gold embroidered band covered with Qur'anic text. In the Eastern corner about 5 feet above ground the Hajar el Aswad (the blackstone) is fixed into the wall. Opposite the North west wall but not connected with it, is a semi circular wall of white marble. It is 3 feet high and about 5 feet thick. This semi circular space enjoys an especial consideration and pilgrims wait in queue to find a place to pray there. The graves of Ismael and his mother Hajera are within this semi circular wall. Between the archway and the facade (N.E.) is a little building with a small dome, the Maqame Ibrahim. Inside it is kept a stone bearing the prints of two human feet. Prophet Ibrahim is said to have stood on this stone when building the Ka’aba and marks of his feet are miraculously preserved. On the outskirts of the building to the North East is the ‘Zamzam Well’ (this is now put under ground). History of the building of the Ka’aba. The holy Qur’an in Sura Baqra Verses 121 to 127 described it clearly that Allah had ordained his servant Ibrahim to build the Shrine there for worship of One God. During Kusayi’s time it was rebuilt and fortified. During the early years of Prophet Muhammad (SA) before he announced his ministry, the Ka’aba was damaged by floods and it was rebuilt again. When the Black stone was to be put in its place the Makkans quarrelled among themselves as to who should have the honour to place it there. They had just decided that the first comer to the quadrangle should be given the task of deciding as to who should have the honour. Muhammad (SA) came in and was assigned this task. He advised them to place the stone in a cloak and ordered the heads of each Tribe each to take an end and bring the cloak nearer the corner on the eastern side. He himself then took out the stone and placed it in its position. It has been fixed there ever since. After the martyrdom of the family of the Prophet at Kerbala in 61 Hijri (681 AD), the Ummayad Caliph Yazid Ibne Moawiya did not stop there in the pursuit of his destruction. He sent a large contingent under the command of Haseen Ibne Namir to Madina which destroyed the Mosque of the Prophet. They did not stop there but proceeded to Makka and demolished the four walls of the Ka’aba and killed thousands of muslims who protested. Yazid died and Ibne Namir returned to Damascus, Ka’aba was rebuilt by Abdullah Ibne Zubayr and his associates. Umawi forces came back to Makka and killed Abdullah Ibne Zubayr, hung his body on the gates of the Ka’aba for three months for all to see the Umawi power. But eventually this arrogance of power brought its own consequences and Mukhtar became the ruler in Iraq. Under his guidance the Ka’aba was refurbished and pilgrims began to arrive in safety to perform Hajj. The Ka’aba successfully withstood the Karamatian invasion of 317/929, only the Blackstone was carried away which was returned some twenty years later. In the year 1981 the Wahabis brought tanks inside the Ka’aba to crush the kahtani revolution against the Saudi regime and almost demolished the South Eastern Wall. This was later restored with the help of the Makkan people. Every man living in Makka in the 6th and 7th century must out of necessity have had some relationship with the Ka’aba. On the Muhammad (SA), the Prophet of Islam, the Qur’an is silent during the Makkans period in this respect. All that is known is that the muslim community of the period turned towards Jerusalem in prayers. Subsequently about a year and a half after the Hijra the Muslims were ordered during prayers which were lead by the Prophet of Islam himself to turn towards Makka. The particular mosque in Madina where this happened is called Masjide Qiblatain, meaning the mosque with two Qiblas.The Qur’an tells the muslims, “ turn then thy face towards the sacred mosque and wherever ye be turn your faces towards that part ”Qur’an II,139/144. At this same period the Qur’an began to lay stress on the religion of Ibrahim, presenting Islam as a return to the purity of the religion of Ibrahim which, obscured by Judaism and Christianity, shone forth in its original brightness in the Qur’an. The pilgrimage’s to the Ka’aba and ritual progressions around the building were continued, but were now for the glorification of One God. The Abrahimic vision of the Ka’aba created a means of discerning an orthodox origin buried in the midst of pagan malpractices to which the first muslims pointed the way. Every year after the Hajj ceremony the place is closed for one month and on the Day of Ashura the Ka’aba is washed from inside by the Water from the well of Zamzam and a new Kiswa is brought to cover the Ka’aba for the next year. This is the story of the Ka’aba. God does NOT live at the Ka'ba. That notion is utterly ABSURD. If He did, then Mecca would be inundated with prayers and supplications by post by muslims seeing as we knew where He lived!!!! The Ka'ba is a shrine to God. A place where believers of all colors and ethnic backgrounds gather under the banner of ISLAM and humble themselves in prayer to the true ONE God. Peace be upon you all.

102 Howie Thanks for your enquiry into the K'aba or as you put it, the place where "the creator of the whole universe subjects himself to living in a tiny little box." I have gathered some information that i hope will prove valuable in removing any misinformation you have about the Ka'ba. The Ka’aba In the province of Hejaz in the western part of Arabia, not far from the Red Sea, there lies the town of Makka. In the centre of this town there is a small square building made of stones, about 60 feet long, 60 feet wide and 60 feet high. Since time immemorial this town and this stone built house has been known to world travellers. This is Baitullah, the House of Allah. Its sanctity and antiquity is older than history itself. Tradition goes that the Kaaba was ordained by Allah to be built in the shape of the House in Heaven called Baitul Ma’amoor. Allah in his infinite Mercy ordained a similar place on earth and Prophet Adam was the first to build this place. The Bible, in the Chapter of Genesis describes its building when God ordained Abraham to erect a Shrine for worship when Abraham was ordered to go to the Southern desert with his wife Hagera and infant son Ismael. The Old Testament describes this building as the Shrine of God at several places, but the one built at Ma’amoor is very much similar to the one at Makka. There is no doubt that it was referring to the stone built house at Makka. The holy Qura’an brought this story into the full light of history. In Sura 3 Verse 90, the holy Qura’an says “Allah has spoken the Truth, therefore follow the creed of Ibrahim, a man of pure faith and no idolater” The first house established for the people was at Makka, a Holy place and a guidance to all beings. Qora’an firmly establishes the fact that Ibrahim was the real founder of the Holy Shrine. When Prophet Ibrahim built the Holy Shrine in Makka, his prayers were that this place should remain a centre of worship for all good and pious people; that Allah should keep his family the custodians of the Holy place. Ever since, Ismael the son of Ibrahim who helped his father to build this place and his descendants remained the custodians of the Holy Shrine. History tells us that centuries passed and the guardianship of the Kaaba remained in the family of Ismael until the name of Abde Manaf came into the limelight. He inherited this service and made it much more prominent. His son Hashim took this leadership and extended it to many other towns of Hejaz so much so that many pilgrims flocked annually to this place and enjoyed Hashims’s hospitality. A feast was given in honour of the pilgrims, food and water was served to all guests by the family of Hashim. This prominence created jealousies and his brother Abdushams’ adopted son Ummayya tried to create trouble. There was a dispute in which Umayya failed and left Makka to settle down in the Northern provinces of Suria(Sham) currently known as Syria. After Hashim his brother Muttalib and after him Hashim’s son Shyba who became known as Abdul Muttalib assumed the leadership of the family. He organised feasts and supplies of water to the pilgrims during the annual festival of Pilgrimage to the Holy Shrine. Prophet Ibrahim built this House for devout worship to one God. But within his lifetime people disobeyed his orders and began to put idols inside the Kaaba. Ibrahim had to clean the House of these idols and of Idle worshippers. He told the people that this was a symbolic house of God. God does not live there for He is everywhere. People did not understand this logic and no sooner had Ibrahim died the people, out of reverence, filled the place with idols again. They thronged to this place annually and worshipped their personal gods, It was over Four Thousand years later that the last of the line of prophet (SA), Muhammad Ibne Abdullah entered Makka triumphantly, went inside the Ka’aba and, with the help of his cousin and son in law Ali Ibne Abi Talib, (AS) destroyed all the idols of Ka’aba with their own hands. At one stage of this destruction of idols, the tallest of the idol Hubbol was brought down after Ali had to stand on the shoulders of the Prophet to carry out God’s orders. The Prophet of Islam was reciting the Verse from the Qur’an “Truth hath come and falsehood hath vanished.” This was done in the 8th year of Hijra, January 630 AD after the bloodless victory at Makka by the Prophet of Islam. Historically when Ibrahim was ordered by Allah to build the Shrine for worship over a small he uncovered the original foundations of the Kaaba built by Adam. Ibrahim with the help of his son Ismael erected the new shrine on the same foundations. Originally it contained only four walls without a roof . Centuries later during the timeof Kusayi who was the leader of the Tribe of Quraish in Makka a taller building was completed with a roof and a quadrangle wall around it to give it the shape of a sanctuary and doors all around the sanctuary walls. People entered through these doors to come to the Ka’aba for worship. It is now about 60 feet high, 60 feet wide from east to west and 60 feet from north to south. A door is fixed about 7 feet above ground level facing North East. A Black stone (Hajar al Aswad) was fixed into its eastern corner. In front of the building was Maqame Ibrahim, the arch shape gate known as that of Banu Shayba and the Zamzam Well. Just outside are the Hills called Safa and Merwa and the distance between the hills is about 500 yards. These days both of the hills are enclosed into the sanctuary walls with a roof over it. The whole building is built of the layers of grey blue stone from the hills surrounding Makka. The four corners roughly face the four points of the compass. At the East is the Black stone (Rukn el Aswad), at the North is el Ruken el Iraqi, at the west al Rukne el Shami and at the south al Rukne el Yamani. The four walls are covered with a curtain (Kiswa). The kiswa is usually of black brocade with the Shahada outlined in the weave of the fabric. About 2/3rd’s of the way up runs a gold embroidered band covered with Qur'anic text. In the Eastern corner about 5 feet above ground the Hajar el Aswad (the blackstone) is fixed into the wall. Opposite the North west wall but not connected with it, is a semi circular wall of white marble. It is 3 feet high and about 5 feet thick. This semi circular space enjoys an especial consideration and pilgrims wait in queue to find a place to pray there. The graves of Ismael and his mother Hajera are within this semi circular wall. Between the archway and the facade (N.E.) is a little building with a small dome, the Maqame Ibrahim. Inside it is kept a stone bearing the prints of two human feet. Prophet Ibrahim is said to have stood on this stone when building the Ka’aba and marks of his feet are miraculously preserved. On the outskirts of the building to the North East is the ‘Zamzam Well’ (this is now put under ground). History of the building of the Ka’aba. The holy Qur’an in Sura Baqra Verses 121 to 127 described it clearly that Allah had ordained his servant Ibrahim to build the Shrine there for worship of One God. During Kusayi’s time it was rebuilt and fortified. During the early years of Prophet Muhammad (SA) before he announced his ministry, the Ka’aba was damaged by floods and it was rebuilt again. When the Black stone was to be put in its place the Makkans quarrelled among themselves as to who should have the honour to place it there. They had just decided that the first comer to the quadrangle should be given the task of deciding as to who should have the honour. Muhammad (SA) came in and was assigned this task. He advised them to place the stone in a cloak and ordered the heads of each Tribe each to take an end and bring the cloak nearer the corner on the eastern side. He himself then took out the stone and placed it in its position. It has been fixed there ever since. After the martyrdom of the family of the Prophet at Kerbala in 61 Hijri (681 AD), the Ummayad Caliph Yazid Ibne Moawiya did not stop there in the pursuit of his destruction. He sent a large contingent under the command of Haseen Ibne Namir to Madina which destroyed the Mosque of the Prophet. They did not stop there but proceeded to Makka and demolished the four walls of the Ka’aba and killed thousands of muslims who protested. Yazid died and Ibne Namir returned to Damascus, Ka’aba was rebuilt by Abdullah Ibne Zubayr and his associates. Umawi forces came back to Makka and killed Abdullah Ibne Zubayr, hung his body on the gates of the Ka’aba for three months for all to see the Umawi power. But eventually this arrogance of power brought its own consequences and Mukhtar became the ruler in Iraq. Under his guidance the Ka’aba was refurbished and pilgrims began to arrive in safety to perform Hajj. The Ka’aba successfully withstood the Karamatian invasion of 317/929, only the Blackstone was carried away which was returned some twenty years later. In the year 1981 the Wahabis brought tanks inside the Ka’aba to crush the kahtani revolution against the Saudi regime and almost demolished the South Eastern Wall. This was later restored with the help of the Makkan people. Every man living in Makka in the 6th and 7th century must out of necessity have had some relationship with the Ka’aba. On the Muhammad (SA), the Prophet of Islam, the Qur’an is silent during the Makkans period in this respect. All that is known is that the muslim community of the period turned towards Jerusalem in prayers. Subsequently about a year and a half after the Hijra the Muslims were ordered during prayers which were lead by the Prophet of Islam himself to turn towards Makka. The particular mosque in Madina where this happened is called Masjide Qiblatain, meaning the mosque with two Qiblas.The Qur’an tells the muslims, “ turn then thy face towards the sacred mosque and wherever ye be turn your faces towards that part ”Qur’an II,139/144. At this same period the Qur’an began to lay stress on the religion of Ibrahim, presenting Islam as a return to the purity of the religion of Ibrahim which, obscured by Judaism and Christianity, shone forth in its original brightness in the Qur’an. The pilgrimage’s to the Ka’aba and ritual progressions around the building were continued, but were now for the glorification of One God. The Abrahimic vision of the Ka’aba created a means of discerning an orthodox origin buried in the midst of pagan malpractices to which the first muslims pointed the way. Every year after the Hajj ceremony the place is closed for one month and on the Day of Ashura the Ka’aba is washed from inside by the Water from the well of Zamzam and a new Kiswa is brought to cover the Ka’aba for the next year. This is the story of the Ka’aba. God does NOT live at the Ka'ba. That notion is utterly ABSURD. If He did, then Mecca would be inundated with prayers and supplications by post by muslims seeing as we knew where He lived!!!! The Ka'ba is a shrine to God. A place where believers of all colors and ethnic backgrounds gather under the banner of ISLAM and humble themselves in prayer to the true ONE God. Peace be upon you all.

103 PS It was the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) that broke the idols that were residing in the Ka'ba.

104 One of the major problems facing mankind today is racism. The developed world can send men to the moon but cannot stp man fighting. ever since the time of the prophet muhammed pbuh. islam has provided a vivd example of how racism can be ended.the annual pilgramige to makkah shows the real Islamic brotherhood of all races and nations, where about 2.5 million peopl come to worship and glorify one god/. POP i am still waiting for an answer Nice writing believer and Howie i hope this answers your question

105 What country is mu.nu??

106 It's Tatooine of course. Amaad thanks for taking the time to do such a long and detailed post. I assure you I've read it. One can never know too much.

107 FUNDAMENTALISM_____________----------________---- OXFORD- FUNDAMENTALISM:n 1.of, affecting, or serving as a base or or foundation, essential, primary 2.Mus. a fundamental principle 3. A fundamental note A Muslim Fundamentalist--Terrorist, big beard, in Al_Qaeda, jihad etc A christian fundamentlist-- Someone who believes in one god, the trinity etc. Isn't it a bit different coz i'll call myself a fundamentalst because i believe in one god, the finality of the Prophet Muhammed pbuh but if i was to go and shout out in my town centre: ''I AM A MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALIST'' i would probably end up in Guantanomo Bay ( have i spelled it right??) Even though i hate Bin laden and his Al-Qaeda crew just as much as i hate president Bush and i denounce terrorism as much as the next muslim.

108 Somewhere near the top it says muslims don't talk to people peacefully> WELL let me say that we muslims greet MUSLIMS and NON-MUSLIMS with the same words ''AS Sallam u Alaykum'' Peace be upon you Huh!! POP i am still waiting for an answer

109 Somwehere among the hundreds maybe thousands of disgusting and stereotypical letters written here it says that muslims don'y give enough money to charity but for the last 1100 years priveleged muslims have been paying 2.5% of their wealth to underprivelleged people>>

110 What islam has done for the World? We in the West know what the Ancient Greeks, Egyptians and Babylonians have done for us in terms of scientific discovery. Most of us have at least heard of, Ptolemy, Galen and Pythagoras and of their contributions to philosophy, astronomy, physics and mathematics. But how many of us have heard of Al-Kindi, Ibn Sina, Al-Razi, Ibn Al-Shatir, Ibn Al-Haytham or Al-Tusi? They are all Muslim scientists who made equally great contributions to science, between the 7th and 15th centuries – during the era known as the Dark Ages. Until recently, the era has been glossed over by historians who happily leapt from the fall of the Roman Empire straight to the Renaissance. But it's time for the West to recognize its debt to those Islamic scientists of the past, who forged ahead while Europe stagnated. The not-so-Dark Ages Possibly one of the best-kept secrets in the history of science is what was going on in the so-called Dark Ages. The time around the fall of the Roman Empire, when nothing new was happening and all was darkness, plague and misery. Nobody seemed particularly interested in learning about the world around them. Perhaps, they were all too busy surviving pestilence and invasions to indulge in the luxury of philosophical thinking. But, more seriously, once the Roman Empire started to crumble, with an onslaught of invasions from the likes of the Vandals and Anglo-Saxons, Western Europe became less interested in scientific pursuits. Superstitious beliefs and paganism apparently appealed more than the intellectual treasures of the Ancient Greeks, Egyptians and Babylonians, which were largely forgotten. But just because Western Europe had temporarily lost interest in its scientific knowledge, it didn't mean that all was completely lost. As western civilisation was slipping into a less than auspicious period for science, Islam was just getting started. The rise of Islam Islam was born around the 7th century, when the prophet Mohammad went to Mecca and the Qur'an first appeared in writing. According to its teachings, the pursuit of knowledge was the duty of every Muslim. As the work of God was everywhere and in everything, to understand the nature of the physical world was to know God. It was therefore the duty of every Muslim to pursue knowledge of the world around them. Early Islam was dynamic. Its followers had the vitality of a people freed from a nomadic way of life. Muslim scholars were intensely curious about the world around them and many peoples were keen to share in what it had to offer. All of which helped to provide a strong motivation for Muslims to come together with others in the pursuit of an Islamic science. This they did with an enthusiasm and dedication that would remain unrivalled until the Renaissance period many centuries later. The people of the pre-Islamic nations traded with merchants from as far afield as China and India, as well as southern Europe. The practicalities of trading over such long distances, meant that they understood how to tell the time and navigate from the stars. They also had a lay knowledge of geology, plants and animals; all of which helped to boost travel, trade, health and farming. Through trade and conquest, the influence of Islam spread across southern Europe, the Near East and Africa. There was a thriving commercial and intellectual interest in the lands that they conquered. Far from wiping out the old or 'foreign' knowledge, Islamic conquerors saw to it that the ancient legacies were treasured and put to good use. Such knowledge, where they found it, was not only preserved but translated and developed. At the time, there were great cultural exchanges between East and West, through trade and pilgrimages. These exchanges, although not always peaceful, helped to bring Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus and the Chinese together. What did Islam do for science? Early Islam probably encouraged the greatest international, cross-cultural, intellectual collaborations, under the banner of science. A phenomenon that has not been recorded in history of science since. Early Islamic teaching encouraged new knowledge for largely practical reasons. Anything that improved life in Islamic society was welcomed – better means of determining the direction of Mecca from all points in the empire; improved navigational aids for travellers and traders; better health care and medical knowledge; more accurate ways of measuring, counting and converting currencies when trading with others. Effectively, astronomy, geography, medicine and mathematics were all useful, practical tools and also helped Muslims to understand the work of God. Some great Islamic scientists Ibn Sina, philosopher and physician Produced a standard medical text in the 10th century that was still in use in the 17th century. Al-Tusi, astronomer His mathematical models were essential to the work of Copernicus in proving that Earth travelled around the Sun. Abu Jafar Muhammad, mathematician Gave us algebra and algorithms that were central to the development of modern computing. Ibn al-Haytham His work on vision and light helped Newton formulate his theories on optics. As Islamic civilisation spread further into southern Europe, vast treasuries of long-forgotten knowledge from conquered lands were taken back to cities like Baghdad, Damascus, Cairo and Cordoba where they were translated into Arabic. There was no shortage of wealthy sponsors to fund the work, nor institutions to house the translations. In the 9th century, the House of Wisdom was established in Baghdad. In the 10th century, Cairo established a huge library, with 40 rooms and thousands of texts devoted to the ancient sciences. By the 11th century, Muslim rulers had established large institutions in all the major cities to preserve their treasury of knowledge. In cities like Gondeshapur in Persia there were international communities of academics and scholars. Some, like the Nestorians, had been forced to flee from Christian lands because of their beliefs. They could speak the ancient languages and found it easy to learn Arabic, so were the ideal choice for much of the translation work. At the same time, in medieval Europe, there was a parallel pursuit of translation of the ancient texts, this time from Greek into Latin. The activity was sponsored largely by the monasteries but the effort was nothing like as intense or as productive as that of the Islamic scholars who had greater resources at their disposal and, at that time, greater intellectual freedom. In the early days of Islam, knowledge was actively encouraged and scholars could do more than just translate the manuscripts that came to them, they could develop the ideas further. Less than 400 years after the first Islamic conquests, all kinds of scientists were at work throughout the vast Islamic Empire. They picked apart, catalogued and developed a huge intellectual legacy from the ancient civilisations. From the broadest ideas of the physical universe, to the invisible workings of the human body, they organised and made sense of it all. They managed to simplify much of what the Greeks and other ancients had started and then improved on it. Islamic science in a nutshell When Western Europe was at its lowest intellectual peak, from the 5th to the 15th centuries, Islamic civilisation was rising rapidly. A thirst for knowledge, including science, was encouraged by the religious leaders of early Islam. The works of the ancients, including Aristotle, , Ptolemy, Galen, Pythagoras and Euclid were collected, safeguarded and translated into Arabic. The chemical properties of alkalis and acids were discovered by Islamic scientists. The process of distillation was formulated and used to produce petrol from crude oil. Islamic scientists contributed to algebra, algorithms, trigonometry, geometry, chemistry, cosmology, astronomy, medicine and optics. Islamic scholars developed the concepts of modern hospitals, universities, observatories and civil systems. The concept of zero reached medieval Europe through the Arab nations who had probably learned of it from ancient Hindu and Chinese cultures. Prior to this Europe struggled with a system of Roman numerals, in which large numbers would consist of huge strings of letters. Once zero was incorporated, numbers took on the more manageable decimal system that we use today.

111 Reason is powerless in the expression of Love. Love alone is capable of revealing the truth of Love and being a Lover. The way of our prophets is the way of Truth. If you want to live, die in Love; die in Love if you want to remain alive.

112 Confused and distraught Again I am raging, I am in such a state by your soul that every bond you bind, I break, by your soul. I am like heaven, like the moon, like a candle by your glow; I am all reason, all love, all soul, by your soul. My joy is of your doing, my hangover of your thorn; whatever side you turn your face, I turn mine, by your soul. I spoke in error; it is not surprising to speak in error in this state, for this moment I cannot tell cup from wine, by your soul. I am that madman in bonds who binds the "divs"; I, the madman, am a Solomon with the "divs", by your soul. Whatever form other than love raises up its head from my heart, forthwith I drive it out of the court of my heart, by your soul. Come, you who have departed, for the thing that departs comes back; neither you are that, by my soul, nor I am that, by your soul. Disbeliever, do not conceal disbelief in your soul, for I will recite the secret of your destiny, by your soul. Out of love of Sham-e Tabrizi, through wakefulness or nightrising, like a spinning mote I am distraught, by your soul. "Mystical Poems of Rumi 2" A. J. Arberry The University of Chicago Press, 1991 Ý — Reason says, "I will beguile him with the tongue;" Love says, "Be silent. I will beguile him with the soul." The soul says to the heart, "Go, do not laugh at me and yourself. What is there that is not his, that I may beguile him thereby?" He is not sorrowful and anxious and seeking oblivion that I may beguile him with wine and a heavy measure. The arrow of his glance needs not a bow that I should beguile the shaft of his gaze with a bow. He is not prisoner of the world, fettered to this world of earth, that I should beguile him with gold of the kingdom of the world. He is an angel, though in form he is a man; he is not lustful that I should beguile him with women. Angels start away from the house wherein this form is, so how should I beguile him with such a form and likeness? He does not take a flock of horses, since he flies on wings; his food is light, so how should I beguile him with bread? He is not a merchant and trafficker in the market of the world that I should beguile him with enchantment of gain and loss. He is not veiled that I should make myself out sick and utter sighs, to beguile him with lamentation. I will bind my head and bow my head, for I have got out of hand; I will not beguile his compassion with sickness or fluttering. Hair by hair he sees my crookedness and feigning; what's hidden from him that I should beguile him with anything hidden. He is not a seeker of fame, a prince addicted to poets, that I should beguile him with verses and lyrics and flowing poetry. The glory of the unseen form is too great for me to beguile it with blessing or Paradise. Shams-e Tabriz, who is his chosen and beloved - perchance I will beguile him with this same pole of the age. "Mystical Poems of Rumi 2" A. J. Arberry The University of Chicago Press, 1991 Ý — I have come so that, tugging your ear, I may draw you to me, unheart and unself you, plant you in my heart and soul. Rosebush, I have come a sweet springtide unto you, to seize you very gently in my embrace and squeeze you. I have come to adorn you in this worldly abode, to convey you above the skies like lovers' prayers. I have come because you stole a kiss from an idol fair; give it back with a glad heart, master, for I will seize you back. What is a mere rose? You are the All1A pun on the Persian "gul" ("rose") and "kull" ("all")., you are the speaker of the command "Say"2 Say: Many passages of the Koran open with the word "say".. If no one else knows you, since you are I, I know you. You are my soul and spirit, you are my Fatiha-chanter3Fatiha-chanter (Fâtiha-khwân): The "Fatiha" ("Opening") is the first chapter of the Koran, containing praise of God and prayers for guidance. , be- come altogether the Fatiha, so that I may chant you in my heart. You are my quarry and game, though you have sprung from the snare; return to the snare, and if you will not, I will drive you. The lion said to me, "You are a wonderous deer; be gone! Why do you run in my wake so swiftly? I will tear you to pieces." Accept my blow, and advance like a hero's shield; give your ear to naught but the bowstring, that I may bend you like a bow. So many thousand stages there are from earth's bounds to man; I have brought you from city to city, I will not leave you by the roadside. Say nothing, froth not, do not raise the lid of the cauldron; simmer well, and be patient, for I am cooking you. No, for you are a lion's whelp hidden in a deer's body: I will cause you suddenly to transcend the deer's veil. You are my ball, and you run in the curved mallet of my decree; though I am making you to run, I am still running in your track. "Mystical Poems of Rumi 1", A.J. Arberry The University of Chicago Press, 1968 Ý — A New Rule It is the rule with drunkards to fall upon each other, to quarrel, become violent, and make a scene. The lover is even worse than a drunkard. I will tell you what love is: to enter a mine of gold. And what is that gold? The lover is a king above all kings, unafraid of death, not at all interested in a golden crown. The dervish has a pearl concealed under his patched cloak. Why should he go begging door to door? Last night that moon came along, drunk, dropping clothes in the street. "Get up," I told my heart, "Give the soul a glass of wine. The moment has come to join the nightingale in the garden, to taste sugar with the soul-parrot." I have fallen, with my heart shattered - where else but on your path? And I broke your bowl, drunk, my idol, so drunk, don't let me be harmed, take my hand. A new rule, a new law has been born: break all the glasses and fall toward the glassblower. "Love is a Stranger", Kabir Helminski Threshold Books, 1993 Ý — It is the rule with drunkards to fall upon one another, to fight and squabble and make tumult. The lover is worse than the drunkard; the lover also belongs to that party. I will tell what love is; it is to fall into a goldmine. What may that gold be? The lover is the king of kings; it means becoming secure from death and not caring for the golden crown. The darvish in his cloak, and in his pocket the pearl - why should he be ashamed of begging from door to door? Last night that moon came along, having flung his girdle on the road, so drunken that he was not aware that his girdle had fallen. I said, "Leap up, my heart, place wine in the hand of the soul; for such a time has befallen, it is time to be roistering. "To become hand in hand with the garden nightingale, to fall into sugar with the spiritual parrot." I, heart-forlorn and heart-yielded, fallen upon your way - by Allah, I know of no other place to fall. If I broke your bowl, I am drunk, my idol. I am drunk - leave me not from you hand to fall into danger. This is a newborn rule, a newly enacted decree - to shatter glasses, and to fall upon the glassmaker! "Mystical Poems of Rumi 2" A. J. Arberry The University of Chicago Press, 1991 Ý — Ode 2180 From these depths depart towards heaven; may your soul be happy, journey joyfully. You have escaped from the city full of fear and trembling; happily become a resident of the Abode of Security4 The Abode of Security seems to be an allusion to heaven which is sometimes called "the abode of peace" (dar-al salam) by Rumi as against "the abode of pride" (dar-al gorur) i.e., the world.. If the body’s image has gone, await the image-maker; if the body is utterly ruined, become all soul. If your face has become saffron pale through death, become a dweller among tulip beds and Judas trees. If the doors of repose have been barred to you, come, depart by way of the roof and the ladder. If you are alone from Friends and companions, by the help of God become a saheb-qeran5 Saheb qeran is a person who is born under a happy conjunction of the planets. [lord of happy circumstance]. If you have been secluded from water and bread, like bread become the food of the souls, and so become! "Mystical Poems of Rumi 2" A. J. Arberry The University of Chicago Press, 1991 Ý — This is love: to fly to heaven, every moment to rend a hundred veils; At first instance, to break away from breath -- first step, to renounce feet; To disregard this world, to see only that which you yourself have seen6 to see only that which you yourself have seen" -- Nicholson's version is "(not to see your own eye) whence all objects derive their unreal existence.. I said, "Heart, congratulations on entering the circle of lovers, "On gazing beyond the range of the eye, on running into the alley of the breasts." Whence came this breath, O heart? Whence came this throbbing, O heart? Bird, speak the tongue of birds: I can heed your cipher! The heart said, "I was in the factory whilst the home of water and clay was abaking. "I was flying from the workshop whilst the workshop was being created. "When I could no more resist, they dragged me; how shall I tell the manner of that dragging?" "Mystical Poems of Rumi 1", A.J. Arberry The University of Chicago Press, 1968 Ý — Sweetly parading you go my soul of soul, go not without me; life of your friends, enter not the garden without me. Sky, revolve not without me; moon, shine not without me; earth travel not without me, and time, go not without me. With you this world is joyous, and with you that world is joyous; in this world dwell not without me, and to that world depart not without me. Vision, know not without me, and tongue, recite not without me; glance behold not without me, and soul, go not without me. The night through the moon's light sees its face white; I am light, you are my moon, go not to heaven without me. The thorn is secure from the fire in the shelter of the roses face: you are the rose, I your thorn; go not into the rose garden without me. I run in the curve of your mallet when your eye is with me; even so gaze upon me, drive not without me, go not without me. When, joy, you are companion of the king, drink not without me; when, watchman, you go to the kings roof, go not without me. Alas for him who goes on this road without your sign; since you, O signless one, are my sign, go not without me. Alas for him who goes on the road without my knowledge; you are the knowledge of the road for me; O road-knower, go not without me. Others call you love, I call you the king of love; O you who are higher than the imagination of this and that, go not without me. 290 Happy-checked saqi of mine, give the cup like pomegranate blossom; if for my sake you will not give for the sake of the heart of the Beloved. Saqi, you are the darling, you are the sick man's cure; quick give the draft of gladness and healing to the sick. Pour wine out in this bowl, smite the nick of anxiety; now, do not break my heart, my heart and sweetheart, and give. Open that tavern, abandon this rowdiness; give to the thirst-stricken lover from the vintner's vat. You are the soul of spring and garden, the glory of cypress and jasmine; now make no excuses, roguish idol, but give! When you set foot on trickery and start away from the drunkard's hands our enemy will rejoice; despite strangers, give! Give not grief and sighing, open the way only to joy; a sigh proceeds from the wayless; open the way; give audience. We are all intoxicated of the encounter, athirst for the bumper of immortality; as pawns, give robe and turban before the saqi. I am athirst of old, hot of heart and breast; break the beaker and cup, give much without measure. You are both moon and moonshine, I am the fish of this water; the moon cannot reach the fish, so give generously of the moonshine. 291 I am seeing a moon outside the eye in the eye, which neither eye has seen or ear heard of. I do not see tongue and soul and heart save without myself, from that moment that I stole a glance at that cheek. Had Plato seen the loveliness and beauty of that moon, he would have become even madder and more distressed than I. Eternity is the mirror of the temporal, the temporal the mirror of pre-eternity - in this mirror those two are twisted together like his tresses. A cloud beyond the sense whose rain is all spirit; sprinkling on the dust of the body - what rains he has rained! The moonfaced ones of heaven, seeing the picture of his face, have become ashamed before that beauty and scratched the bank of their necks. Posteternity took the hand of pre-eternity and took it toward the place of that moon: having seen both, it laughed in jealous pride at the two. About and around his palace what lions there are, roaring jealously, aiming at the blood of the self-sacrificing, adventurous men. Suddenly the word jumped from my mouth, 'Who is that king? Shams-al-din king of Tabriz'; and at those words my blood surged. RUMI ONE OF THE GREATEST POETS ALIVE><:p

113 The IRA don't always give warnings POP WHERE IS THE WEBSITE POP AND POp ANSWER MY QUESTION PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ@?~}#'/#

114 I have just thought of something which is very important. The media plays an important part in making terrorist succeed. I noticed today as i went to my newsagents today that every newspaper were full of horrific pictures and headlines.# THE TERRORISTS WANTED A RESPONSE AND THEY GOT IT. THE TERRORISTS SUCCEEDED EVEN THOUGH THEY DIDN'T DETONATE THE BOMB. THERE WAS ONLY ONE NEWSPAPER THAT DIDN'T FALL INTO THIS TRAP ~#'THE DAILY JANG'#~ THE HAD 13 OTHER HEADLINES ON THEIR PAGE. MASHALLAH TO THE EDITOR OF THE JANG

115 one thing causes suiceide bobs and extremism that is POLITICS and the HYPROCISY OF THE WEST. I'll finish this off 2moro when i will hopefully have a res[ponse. ( i bet i'm gonna have arthirtis on my fingers in a few years)

116 the eighth century A.D., Arabian alchemist Geber distilled water using wick siphons to purify it in the process removing "spirits." Not the same process. Just when it looked like water treatment was going nowhere fast, Sir Francis Bacon, the Elizabethan philosopher, in 1627 recorded the only 10 experiments in the preceding 1,000 years, which related to water treatment. In his book, "A Natural History of Ten Centuries," experiments included water purification methods such as percolation, filtration, boiling, distillation and coagulation. During the eighth and ninth centuries important advancement in experimentation with materials including the distillation of drugs, aromatic oils and flavours from India were made. In the tenth century an Arab doctor named Avicenna attempted to distill flower essences. He was able to isolate otto of rose and produced rose water which later became a considerable Arabian trade. Other Arabian, Persian, Spanish and Italian chemists developed methods of distillation and preparation of drugs. The distillation of alcohol was made in northern Italy in around 1100. With this discovery purer extractions were possible. Previously, perfumers like Romans had soaked flowers in wine to obtain essences. Meanwhile, during the so called Dark Ages, in Europe the growth of monasteries had spread the discovery of medicinal and other use of many plants. Gasoline was not invented it is a natural by-product of the petroleum industry, kerosene being the principal product. Gasoline is produced by distillation, the separating of the volatile, more valuable fractions of crude petroleum. However, what was invented were the numerous processes and agents needed to improve the quality of gasoline. According to Chemcases.com, "the invention and development of the automobile as primary mode of personal transportation required a parallel development of the fuels that would power the automobiles. Hydrocarbon fuels were an integral component of society in the 19th century as a source of light. Coal gas, camphene, kerosene from the petroleum in the ground all competed to light the lamps of the cities and the country." Automobile engines demanded large amounts of petroleum. The early refiners could convert only a small proportion of their crude oil to gasoline for cars. As the number of automobiles increased, a requirement for higher quality in the fuels was in demand to prevent damaging knocking that robbed the engines of efficiency and power as automobile engineers sought to design high compression auto engines. The processes that were invented to improve the yield of gasoline from crude oil were known as cracking. In petroleum refining, cracking is a process by which heavy hydrocarbon molecules are broken up into lighter molecules by means of heat, pressure, and sometimes catalysts. Cracking is the number one process for the commercial production of gasoline. According to Britannica, "Thermal cracking, employing heat and high pressures, was introduced in 1913 but was replaced after 1937 by catalytic cracking, the application of catalysts that facilitate chemical reactions producing more gasoline. Other methods used to improve the quality of gasoline and increase its supply include polymerization, converting gaseous olefins, such as propylene and butylene, into larger molecules in the gasoline range; alkylation, a process combining an olefin and a paraffin such as isobutane; isomerization, the conversion of straight-chain hydrocarbons to branched-chain hydrocarbons; and reforming, using either heat or a catalyst to rearrange the molecular structure." Timeline of Gasoline Fuel Improvements and Gasoline History 19th century fuels for the automobile were coal tar distillates and the lighter fractions from the distillation of crude oil. On September 5, 1885, the first gasoline pump was manufactured by Sylvanus F. Bowser of Ft. Wayne, Ind. and delivered to Jake D. Gumper, also of Ft. Wayne. The gasoline pump tank had marble valves and wooden plungers and had a capacity of one barrel. On September 6, 1892, the first gasoline-powered tractor, manufactured by John Froelich, of Froelich, Iowa, was shipped to Langford, S.D., where it was employed in threshing for approximately 2 months. It had a vertical single- cylinder gasoline engine mounted on wooden beams and drove a J. I. Case threshing machine. Froelich formed the Waterloo Gasoline Tractor Engine Company, which was later acquired by the John Deere Plow Company. On September 20, 1885, the first gasoline pump manufactured by Sylvanus F. Bowser of Fort Wayne, Indiana was delivered to Jake D. Gumper, also of Fort Wayne. The pump tank, with marble valves and wooden plungers, held one barrel or 42 gallons of gasoline. On June 11, 1895, the first U.S. patent for a gasoline-powered automobile was issued to Charles E. Duryea of Springfield, Mass. By the early 20th century, the oil companies were producing gasoline as a simple distillate from petroleum. During the 1910s, laws prohibited the storage of gasolines on residential properties. On January 7, 1913, William Meriam Burton receives a patent for his cracking process to convert oil to gasoline. On January 1, 1918, the first U.S. gasoline pipeline began transporting gasoline through a three inch pipe over 40 miles from Salt Creek to Casper, WY. Charles Kettering modified an internal combustion engine to run on kerosene. However, kerosene fueled engine knocked and would crack the cylinder head and pistons. Thomas Midgley Jr. discovered that the cause of the knocking was from the kerosene droplets vaporising on combustion. Anti-knock agents were researched by Midgley, culminating in tetra ethyl lead being added to fuel. On February 2, 1923, for the first time in U.S. history ethyl gasoline was marketed. This took place in Dayton, Ohio. In 1923, Almer McDuffie McAfee developed the petroleum industry's first commercially viable catalytic cracking process-a method that could double or even triple the gasoline yielded from crude oil by then-standard distillation methods. (source NACS) By the mid-1920s, gasolines were 40 - 60 Octane. By the 1930s, the petroleum industry stopped using kerosene. Eugene Houdry invented the catalytic cracking of low-grade fuel into high test gasoline in 1937. During the 1950s, the increase of the compression ratio and higher octane fuels occured. Lead levels increased and new refining processes (hydrocracking) began. In 1960, Charles Plank and Edward Rosinski patented (U.S. #3,140,249) the first zeolite catalyst commercially useful in the petroleum industry for catalytic cracking of petroleum into lighter products such as gasoline. In the 1970s, unleaded fuels were introduced. From 1970 until 1990 lead was phased out. In 1990, the Clean Air Act created major changes on gasoline, rightfully intended to eliminate pollution. Historians say the Chinese used petroleum as early as the third century B.C. Oil lamps and cooking stoves are two of the known uses of petroleum in China at the time. They used long, metal drills to reach the oil within the ground and then pushed bamboo tubes into the holes. As the oil gushed to the surface, they collected it. Besides fuel, the Chinese also used oil for medicinal purposes. After it was filtered through cloth, the fine oil was used as balm for skin. The Chinese combined oil with other substances and took it internally to relieve pain from stomachaches and intestinal problems. The Chinese were probably among the first to use natural gas as well. They often built ovens and hearths in locations where natural gas escaped from the ground since they had no means to transport it.

117 Also the idea that speech is controlled by the forehead predated Islam. In the book of Revelation it talks of the mark of the beast being on the hand or forehead. Some read this literally as a mark I interpret as: when you speak your beast given identity number to the banker. comes from cerebellum when you write you beast given identity number on the loan application. uses hand. Govenments are man created beasts. They take on a life of their own and devour all. No man created government will ever be anything but a beast.

118 beasts can prove useful the question is do you control the beast or does it control you.

119 Thank you Howie, i am sorry i wasn't cleaRER but you have made it clearer for me. If the bible is the BOOk of the revelation] is the bible , i would justy like to point out that We muslims believe thATY the Quran, bible, torAH and the psalms were written by the same author , GOD, Following your writing i took a bible and read it, it was beautiful and flowing but i think that they were several errors in the bible: BIBLE CONTRADICTIONS The Bible, that is the Torah, is the legacy of Moses. It consists of the books Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. It forms the basis of the Jewish religion, and has remained essentially unchanged since Ezra and Nehamiah "canonized" the Torah in 444 BC. The "New Testament" consists of materials surrounding Jesus (diaries, letters, narratives, pious fabrications, written and oral histories) that survived Catholic editors 400 years later who were motivated by politics and not, as is obvious to anyone free of theological bias, logic. "Translations" of both the Bible and the New Testament are pitifully lacking; Hebrew (Torah), Greek (New Testament), Aramaic and Chaldean (bits of both) are rich, beautiful, poetic languages with myriad hidden meanings and depth. English translations are pale shadows of the originals. The more mystical or universally philosophical overtones were left out altogether, at Nicea, in 325 AD, when any of the [over 150 versions of the Gospel - hence "Heterodoxy'] writings not in line with the council standards were systematically destroyed to favor the mystically vacant and emotionally mean Orthodoxy. This is when four Gospels (and the other New Testament books) were selected and enforced. (See Bible Roots) Hosea 13:4 "...thou shalt know no G-d but me; for there is no Savior besides me." So much for Jesus.... "Christianity is a Greek-Pagan heresy of Judaism" - Maimonides Nothing on this page is original. It is compiled and provided here as a resource for people working to heal destructive, voodoo fundamentalism. (The purpose of this page is to show the futility of dogma; it is not to denigrate the Bible, an amazing compendium of revelation and literature, and one of our only connections to the ancient world. The Bible is a monument of human thought - but alas, the defenders of the New Testament systematically eradicated the competition, to create an illusion that the Theirs was The Great Text.) The purpose of pointing out contradictions is not to 'disprove the Bible,' it is to defuse the small minded literalists who make Bible-based religions look stupid. The author of this page also freely acknowledges that many derive true healing and spiritual fulfillment from the Bible and even from Christianity; it's all in the intention. This page targets those who use any religion as a weapon. This page does not claim to explain anything in Torah or the New Testament or provide a definitive, final answer. Usually the people who claim to have "the True, Accurate and Final Answer" are the ones who are suspect. The 'Bible,' to the Jews, does not include the New Testament, which is seen to some as an opportunistic add-on. The Christian experience of religion is radically different than the Jewish, so inconsistencies seem inevitable when the two are bound together in one book. To begin to understand the Bible, learn Hebrew. To understand the New Testament, learn Greek. Christianity exists in translation - and so much gets lost in translation. The Jewish religious experience is joyously human, celebrating and sanctifying all acts of life, including eating, excreting, and mating, while contemplating God and Torah in its original language. The Christian experience, because it is a translation, and because of Paulist and other Hellenistic add-ons, is more theoretical, with conditional joy, and strained, convoluted guilt and denial. It attempts to destroy the human part of us, most obviously in its suppression of sex, and notion of "Original Sin." By splitting God into three, and having a mutilated corpse as its central icon, Christianity becomes Anti-Messiah. (Messiah brings peace...not gore) By inventing a "Devil," God's power is subverted and challenged - inconceivable in a non-pagan, one God system. Paul's notion of "Original Sin" taints the well of spirituality. The Jewish Bible was passed on and carefully preserved for more than a millennium when it was finally canonized by the scribe Ezra, in 444 B.C.E. This was the first 'religion of the book,' written and kept by people who had been in and out of exile, and with whom 'God had formed a special bond.' The early Jewish editors were rigorously conservative, and kept the book to the basics. It was written mostly in Hebrew, with some Aramaic and Chaldean. Before the Bible was canonized (from the Hebrew kaneh, meaning 'cane,' or'upright'), there were prophets everywhere. Jews were literate early on, and many considered themselves authors, commentators, or prophets. Prophecy dwindled after canonization, as the older (and official) texts gained authority. There were also the numerous claimants to being "Messiah" that annoyed Jewish authorities off and on through the centuries. Some of the Jewish innovations were the concept of 'ethical monotheism,' and a system of covenants with an immediate, personal deity. The one-on-one relationship with the creator was democratizing; for a homeless, captive people, it provided a way around 'the system.' The Jewish idea of being 'The Chosen People' has been causing friction for nearly 4,000 years - but the Jewish conception of "chosen" less like being "better than," and more like being "singled out." Rabbi Jesus adhered to the ancient Jewish system of laws, and was a devout Jew (the "Last Supper" was a Passover Seder), but rejected legalistic corruption in the Jewish establishment. For this, conservative Jewish authorities (Sadducees) rejected Jesus, and made it easy for the Romans to crucify him. Paul of Tarsus Hellenized the story of Jesus, removed its Jewishness, grafted on Pagan Greek ideas, and opened the gates to hordes of converts. The multitude of Christian cults canonized their literature, and added it onto the Torah, calling the combined material the "Old" and "New" Testaments. But Christianity is not the "next phase" of Judaism. It is a religion unto itself, with Judaism as its initial inspiration, but sharply different than Judaism in its teaching. The things in Christianity that sound Jewish are Jewish. Christianity is not founded so much upon Jesus the man as upon Jesus the concept, and the resulting theology that was invented to support it. The New Testament is not the logical completion of the Old Testament. "Judeo-Christian" is a misnomer, an erroneous concept - Christians and Jews have both said so. Judaism is unrelated to any religion that claims that it is the one and only true religion and the sole ticket to heaven, and that if you don't join, you're damned. [Catholics also reportedly accept that theirs is not the only way to Heaven - if that's the case, it's certainly difficult to understand their role in the torture and killing of tens of thousands of innocents, for purportedly religious reasons. And yes, the Jews killed the Amorites, the Hittites, the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, etc., a fact that is repeated daily, and which has a constant humbling effect. Jewish guilt about its occasional oppressions of others doesn't make it any easier to contemplate the cruelty of non-Jews.] Christianity did not begin with Jesus, but after Jesus. Jesus was an Essene Jew - the Dead Sea Scrolls reveal that the ideas he taught had been part of the Essene tradition for 200 years when Jesus was alive. [Jews today do ritual immersions in water (John the Baptist was a Jew also), and believe in the Final Redemption when the Messiah comes, with the revival of the dead.] Jesus was not an innovator. Fifty years after his crucifixion by the Romans, Paul of Tarsus grafted on Pagan Mithraic ideas and began the Christianity we know today, which is so radically different than its mother religion, Judaism. The absolutist, Heaven or Hell Christian and Islamic world views differ sharply from Torah ("Old" Testament) religion. They read the Bible (and later writings, Koran, New Testament) and see only black and white. The original Bible religion, Judaism, understands the relationship with the Creator differently, seeing it as a contractual relationship, a dialog, or a dialectic. Jews do not believe that theirs is only way to paradise. Christianity and Islam, later interpretations of Torah, are both much more prone to laying down absolute dictums about the fate of your soul. "God, however, does not play dice." (Albert Einstein, Jewish Physicist) A literal approach to the Bible embalms it. The Bible's function (providing us with a diagnostic tool, a "litmus test" for life) is enhanced by its contradictions and ambiguities. It forces our minds to reach beyond the obvious and find new meanings and hidden teachings. The Jewish oral tradition fills in a lot of the blanks. The Zohar (Mystical Biblical commentary from Spain in the 1200's) says: "The stories in the Torah couldn't possibly be about what they seem to be about, otherwise we could write better stories!" (III 152a). Anyone who is really interested in the Bible should take the time to learn Hebrew and study it in its original language. Experience has shown this writer that it's worth the effort. All of the hair pulling over the "King James Version" or whatever other translation someone's using is really a moot point. The Burning Hell, the "Lake of Fire," the Pointy Tailed Devil, these fictions are all medieval-Christian scare tactics, and have nothing at all to do with the Judaism of Jesus. God created humans, and said "It is Good." The God of the Bible (Jesus' God) has faith in humanity, and waits for our gratitude and praise. On the other hand, the New Testament God has condemned humanity, robbed his followers of the Joy of Life, and resorted to bullying and sham to corral the faithful. The Bible is fractal- filled with thickets and labyrinths, and that is why people love it. It has as many contradictions as any other thought system; and is seen by some as a form of poetry. Each of these contradictions could provide a seed for great mystical analysis. Use them as a way to raise spiritual sparks, instead of as a cudgel against other people (see Spanish Inquisition). Here are a few of the contradictions: Should we kill? Ex. 20:13 Thou shalt not commit murder. Ex. 32:27 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, put every man his sword by his side...and slay every man his brother...companion..neighbor.(See also 1 Sam. 6:19; 15:2,3; Num. 15:36) Ex 20:5 "...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..." (see also Ex 34:14, Deut 4:24, Josh 24:19, and Nah 1:2) Gal 5:19-20 "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are...jealousy..." (See also 2 Cor 12:20) Should we tell lies? Ex. 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness.(Prov. 12:22; Rev. 21: 1 Kings 22:23 The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. (II Thess. 2:11; Josh. 2:4-6 with James 2:25) Should we steal? Ex. 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. (Lev. 19:13) Ex. 3:22. And ye shall spoil the Egyptians. (Ex. 12:35-36; Luke 19:29-33) Shall we keep the Sabbath? Ex. 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. (Ex. 31:15; Num. 15:32,36) Is. 1:13 The new moons and the Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity. (John 5:16; Matt. 12:1-5) Shall we make Graven images? Ex. 20:4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven...earth...water. (Lev. 26:1) EX. 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them. Are we "saved" through works? Eph. 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith...not of works. (Rom. 3:20, 28; Gal. 2:16) James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.(Matt. 19:16-21) Should good works be seen? Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works. (I Peter 2:12) Matt. 6:1-4 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them...that thine alms may be in secret. (Matt. 23:5) Should we own slaves? Lev. 25:45-46 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy...and they shall be your posession...they shall be your bondmen forever. (Gen. 9:25; Ex. 21:2,7; Joel 3:8; Luke 12:47; Col. 3:22) Is. 58:6 Undo the heavy burdens...break every yoke. (Matt. 23:10) Does God change his mind? Mal. 3:6. For I am the Lord; I change not. Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent. (Ezek. 24:14; James 1:17) Ex. 32:14. And the Lord repented of the evil which he had thought to do unto his people. (Gen. 6:6; Jonah 3:10; Sam. 2:30-31; II Kings 20:1-6; Num. 16:20-35) Are we punished for our parent's sins? Ex. 20:5 For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations. (Ex. 34:7) Ezek. 18:20 The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father. Is God good or evil? Psa. 145:9. The Lord is good to all. (Deut. 32:4; James 1:13) Is. 45:7 I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things. (Lam 3:38; Jer. 18:11; Ezek. 20:25) Is God Peaceable? John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you. (Luke 2:14; Acts 10:36) Matt. 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth, I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matt. 10:35-37; Luke 22:36) Was Jesus trustworthy? John 8:14 Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true. John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. Shall we call people names? Matt. 5:22 Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire. Matt. 23:17 (Jesus said) Ye fools and blind. Has anyone seen God? John 1:18 No man hath seen God at anytime. (Ex 33:20; Tim. 6:16; John 6:46; I John 4:12) Gen. 32:30 For I have seen god face to face. (Ex. 33:11, 23; Is. 6:1; Job 42:5) How many gods are there? Deut. 6:4 The Lord or God is one Lord. Gen. 1:26 And God said, let us make man in our image.(Gen. 3:22; I John 5:7) Are we all sinners? Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned. (Rom. 3:10; Psa.14;3) Job 1:1 There was a man... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright. (Gen. 7:1; Luke 1:5-6) When was Jesus crucified? Mark 15:22 and it was the third hour, and they crucified him. John 19:14-15 And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out...crucify him!" Just because these can be "explained" doesn't mean that they don't exist. Healthy religion contains the spirit of debate, like Jacob wrestling with the angel. The fundamentalist attitude that "everything is carved in stone, finished" is unsustainable. Just as you can make any sentence you like from the dictionary by choosing certain words, you can prove any point you want by juggling the millions of concepts in the Bible. This is something that both Christians and Jews are adept at. Again, the intention is what matters. The Zohar says something to the effect that: "If people are discussing Torah, and they disagree, it doesn't matter, what's important is that they are talking about Torah." There are strains of the Christian church who refer to the Bible as a 'Sword'. The metaphor becomes real when they attack the freedoms of others. These contradictions are pointed out for their sake. Many good people believe the Bible is literally God's Word ('sWord?!?), and reverence it and its teachings appropriately. But Jesus said: "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."(Matt.26:52.) The Buddhist concept of Sword is called 'Prajna'- 'cutting-through' wisdom. This can be related to a line from a letter of Paul's to the Hebrews where he says: "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews: 4.12.) The Bible is perhaps a potent device for meditation or prayer, or a comfort in times of loneliness, grief or adversity, but when used as a weapon, it loses its validity. The Bible's commandments are comparable to Hindu, Buddhist, or many other rule-systems, and serve societies well. Any way that people can feel peace, or improve their lives, shouldn't be disrespected. Unfortunately for peaceful believers, the fanatics twist something sacred into an ugly parody of itself. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I received the following e-mail in 1995: "i don't what bible you got the verse's out of but you need to look them up your self they are wrong i look up some and it don't read that away" Wow! I almost don't know what to say. It is not 'doctored,' as some insist; at least not by myself. Either way, it allows for this disclaimer: Some passages have been condensed for the sake of brevity, as in the following example: Exodus 32:27 reads:'slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor', and on this page has been shortened to 'slay every man his brother...companion...neighbor-" JESUS WAS NOT THE MESSIAH PROMISED IN THE TORAH Here's part of another email received in 2000: ...Jesus didn't fulfill any of the Messianic prophecies. Elijah didn't foretell him and he isn't a son of David. The Christian Scriptures are not historically accurate in their presentation of Pilate, and the entire writing is suspect. The resurrection narrative stands as a terribly garbled account. The theme of a dying Messiah who atones for sin is not to be found in Jewish sources, but is found in abundance in pagan mythology. How can any thinking person be a Christian? Michael No, Jesus did NOT fulfill the Biblical prophecies. Some of those prophecies are: "For to us a child is born, ... Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, of the increase of his government and of peace, there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom..." (Isaiah 9:6-7) and "The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them." Is this what Jesus brings when he says: "Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother..." (Matthew 10:34) or "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26) How does setting children against their parents bring peace, or jibe with the fifth commandment (Honor thy Father and Mother)? If Jesus meant "put God first," then why didn't he say it? Why did he put himself first? Jesus' genealogy, claiming that he was a descendant of David the King (a prophetic requirement), is not only fabricated, but doesn't make sense in light of other aspects of Paulist Christology. This concocted lineage indicates that the line of David was continued in Joseph, but if Mary was a virgin, then how could it be valid? "Then he (Jesus) strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ." Matthew 16:20 "Yet I am God your Lord from the land of Egypt; you know no God but Me, and there is no savior besides Me." Hosea 14:4 [God speaking throught the prophet Hosea] Bible defenders present mountains of verbiage trying to rationalize Biblical contradictions - further proving that any point can be backed up by something in the Bible. The Bible is so fraught with ambiguity that it makes perfect fodder for endless debate. Like newspaper astrologers, the Oracle at Delphi, dreamwork, or ritual magic, its pronouncements are always open to interpretation - rendering them useful more for those willing to suspend rational judgment, not to mention providing fuel for unceasing discussion about important ethical and psychological issues. About Context There is the complaint that some of these lines are taken out of context. But these complainers are taking the entire Bible out of context. They miss the point that these contradictions are not presented to invalidate the Bible. They are presented to invalidate fundamentalist literalism. If a single sentence is flexible in regard to its context, then why are other solitary passages given so much import? For example the line 'in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost' appears only once in the entire Bible,(Matthew 28:19) and yet it is at the center of one of the great concepts of Christianity, the Trinity (Which, by the way, weakens Christian claims to monotheism, in the eyes of Jews and Muslims). Incidentally, Deuteronomy 4:28 refers to "idols of wood and stone" - the Christian Cross is wood, and inside of the Kaaba, the black box the Muslims all pray to, is a stone, a meteor. If the context neutralizes what appears to be a contradiction, then doesn't the context also neutralize everything else in the book? The Bible is a holographic compendium of powerful metaphors; it is a fascinating, compelling labyrinth that can be a garden for its scholars; but its authority is chosen, and cannot be imposed on the unwilling. Even if the context of a passage changes the meaning so much that it 'no longer contradicts,' the fact is, that the apparent contradiction is enough to prove the point that there are contradictions, even if trivial. An even more objective viewpoint is to for a moment not to even look at individual passages, but to look at the entire Bible, and even the New Testament, in the context of world history, other religions, other sacred texts, and other religious traditions. The Hebrew Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Levicticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, canonized 445 B.C. by Ezra and Nehamiah) has its contradictions, and the Prophets and Writings have their own contradictions. The New Testament, canonized 812 years later, in about 367 A.D., has its many contradictions and inconsistencies. (see Bible History) Christianity itself exists in a context - as a derivitive re-forming of Judaism, it shares with Islam the status of "Latecomer." The words: "Amen" and "Halleluyah" are Hebrew, and were considered ancient in Davidic times (1000 BC). These words are intoned many times daily by observant Jews, with Psalms you can find in any Bible, but in Hebrew and not Elizabethan English. About Morality Religion or "God" are not the sources of morality (The source of morality is Your Heart). The immorality of some who claim to be righteous and holy, and the goodness of many without religion, demonstrates this. Religion and morality are two separate concepts that sometimes overlap, but that are really independent of each other. When religionists proclaim that theirs is the one true faith and attempt to convert or destroy those who believe differently, they are committing immorality of a most dangerous kind. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE OCCULT "Occult" means "hidden," and refers to ancient knowledge and tradition forced into hiding by meddlesome Christians. Anything not in the Bible is considered Evil, must be repressed, and becomes "occult." 2,000 years of Christian censorship have tried, but failed to repress older beliefs and the roots of Christianity itself. The Christian Satan is vastly different than the original Hebrew "satan," an "obstructing angel," that is short-lived and generic. Babylonian influences solidified this entity into a specific, evil being, and now, Christianity has elevated the Devil to an equal footing with God. Bible belt teenagers becoming 'Satanists' and going on killing sprees are the obvious products of a fundamentalist environment; borne of parents who see evil everywhere, from Harry Potter books to Tinky Winky, these kids rebel in the easiest way: becoming what their parents most fear and obsess over. They do it by claiming belief in a "religion" that owes its very existence to Christianity. (And yes, Anton Lavey). The Christian obsession with the Devil and witchcraft actually fosters and propagates what they try so hard to repress. Fundamentalist abhorrence of evil is really a lack of faith, because God created Evil: [Isa 45:7 KJV] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Trying to avoid the issue, newer translations change "evil" to "woe," or "calamity," but the Hebrew word in the original is "Ra," which translates into "Evil." As Christianity took over Europe, attempts to suppress Pagan holy day celebrations met fierce resistance. Their solution was to absorb these holidays, purloin them, and make them into Christian holidays. Christians object to Halloween, because it is of Pagan origin (Samhain). To be consistent, then, they should also reject Christmas (Yule), Easter (Ostara), and Pentecost (Lugnasað), also Pagan holidays co-opted by Christians in an attempt to erase the true origins. They should also reject the Resurrection (Pagan) and the transubstantiation of bread and wine into blood and flesh (Pagan). Christian demons and devils are no different than Buddhist, or even Hindu ones (Not as colorful though...) Christian God-forms (Father, Son, & Holy Ghost, the Devil) are just as "true" or "false" as any other religions'. Christians believe that Pagans worship the Earth, and say it is sin to worship the created, instead of worshiping the Creator. This confused notion of separating creator and created is particularly vain, and is used by Christians to justify trashing the land. Thousands of people were crucified in Judea during Roman times. By concentrating on the suffering of Jesus, the Gospels convey the impression that he was a rare victim of this brutal form of Roman execution. Leviticus has dire warnings against even touching the skin of pigs-doesn't this imperil the souls of Christian football players? If one can see through to the underlying metaphor (or parable), and glean the good from scripture, fine. But justifying intolerance with dogmatic fixation on the literal inerrancy of every line in the book leads to simplistic conclusions, and often contradictory ones. Fundamentalists are obsessed with making the world clear cut and orderly. Subtlety or complexity upsets and confuses them. Alternate points of view, or attitudes of flexibility or openness drive them crazy. Possessed by their own fear of destabilization, they are driven to impose their will on others. They even view their inflexibility as a virtue. Their fear and mistrust feeds on itself, and grows exponentially. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These people to the left are protesting against homosexuality. They are pretending that their bigotry has some sort of spiritual component or basis. Their actions prove, of course, that they are quite removed from anything spiritual. Their myopia makes it impossible for them to understand that sexuality is not something chosen, like one chooses a shirt, or a religion. Click here to learn more about these hate-drunk zealots. Fundamentalist raving about homosexuality reveals a lack of knowledge of the very scripture they quote, at least in the case of Lesbianism. Nowhere in the the Torah ["Old" Testament] is there a prohibition of lesbianism, or even mention of it. It has been said that the fundamentalist mind is like concrete; all mixed up and permanently set. In nature, every creature is born of female (except seahorses, of course), but the Garden of Eden story changes that. A male God creates Adam, the first man, and then Eve is "born" from Adam's rib, as an afterthought. Eve is then held responsible for the downfall of the perfect Man. In fact, Genesis 1:27, which is earlier than the rib story (Gen 2:21), says: "He created them, male and female he created them." Another way of looking at Eve's placement in creation is that every created thing was more complex and "evolved" than the one preceding it, and so Eve was the ultimate and most perfect thing created. Yet another approach is brought out that all humanity is descended from Adam, giving everyone a common ancestor, and defusing attempts to place one people over another as "superior." After Eve colludes with the snake, and everyone passes the buck, the snake bites the dust. Eve's role in this story has been used to justify oppressive attitudes towards women, and nature, especially within parts of the Christian tradition. The Evolution of Creation 'Creationists' insist that when evolution is taught in schools it should be preceded with the disclaimer that 'It is only a theory.' Perhaps when teaching 'creation science,' that class should be preceded with the disclaimer:'The Bible consists entirely of mythology, incomplete history, and unprovable claims.' Christian doctrine cannot be proven - faith is NOT proof. Nor is the fact that it is written in black and white proof. The fact of biological evolution is so much more mystical and awe inspiring than the 6 day fundamentalist metaphor, it's hard to believe they can disassociate their abbreviated, magical/miraculous version of life's beginnings from observed reality. This refusal to adapt the facts into their belief system destroys their credibility almost more than anything else they do. Genesis says the world was created in six days. It also says that Adam lived 930 years (Gen 5:5), and that Noah was 600 years old when the flood happened (Gen 7:6). We can take these figures literally, believing that "people just lived longer in those days," or if we have a shred of intelligence or honesty, we can surmise that Biblical time reckoning is on a metaphoric scale. Of course, this allows Genesis to agree with observed evolution. "But do not ignore this one fact beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (2 Peter 3: ALL of the universe is one, flowing, fractal mind-form - we call it God, Goddess, G-D, Brahman, Allah, Buddhahood, Ahura-Mazda, El-Shaddai, Jah, Manitou, Tao, math, language, chemistry, history, religion, humor, evolution, and infinitely more. It is "center everywhere, circumference nowhere -" we are the center of the universe, because it is infinite. And we are also an insignificant speck, a bubble on the cosmic oceans. Time is a human invention, based on the periodicity of day and night, the seasons, and our own mortality. But in the context of infinity, time is meaningless. Evolution/Creation is never/always finished. YOU ARE THE CROWN OF CREATION The Structure of the Universe -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The fact that fundamentalists of every stripe, Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, Baptist, Muslim, etc., all claim that they and only they are going to heaven - brings down the whole house of cards. How could they all be right? They are all equally convinced, equally fooled, and equally brainwashed. (The Jews believe that theirs is not necessarily the only way to Heaven). They say: "Read the Bible with an open mind" which really means "Read the Bible with your mind shut off-" Why attack Christianity? Ask all of the people they have attacked. Look at their arrogant dismissal of all other beliefs. Look at their bad taste-- bumper stickers that say: "Christians aren't perfect; they're just forgiven." (The implication here is that they are nearly perfect; still better than nonbelievers. They have conveniently absolved themselves of sin, speaking in behalf of their imaginary savior.) Christians are the only religion that scrawls the sacred name of their God on toilet stalls, tacks it to telephone poles, or lets if fall into gutters. The crass insensitivity of Fundamentalist zealots is revealed in their opportunism - their habit of targeting people in grief or difficulty. One approached a friend's mother after he broke his neck, hinting that her resistance to Christianity was the cause. The notion that a pack of irrational nonsense would have prevented a car accident, or that it would cure a broken neck is annoying enough; but the egotism of someone trying to get another 'notch on their gun' at such a sensitive time is appalling. Another example is a how a co-worker told me that his father, a Baptist minister, has systematically manipulated the family inheritance in such a way that his seven other brothers and sisters are completely cut out of receiving any money. He has also disowned his son and refused him burial in the family plot, because his son, 52 years old with a grown daughter, has admitted to himself and the world that he's gay. This man, a Baptist minister, a supposedly moral person, justifies his cold-blooded viciousness to his own family because he believes he's right and has all the answers. Typical behavior, similar to that of Tom DeLay and so many other self-annointed, sanctimonious Christians, who believe that any act, no matter how dishonest, unethical, or deceitful, is justified if it "leads to the cross." "Fundamentalists" frequently mis-interpret the very scripture they use to browbeat people with. Their blanket condemnation of homosexuality ignores the fact that the Bible says absolutely nothing about Lesbianism - there is no prohibition of women having sex with other women in the Bible at all - yet Gay women are included in Christian busybody attacks on people's private lives. Conversely, while the second of the Ten Commandments prohibits "Graven Images," the Catholic Church is crawling with images and carvings of saints, apostles, and the mutilated corpse of the Rabbi Jesus who they worship. The "Message," as they call it, that they want to tell everyone about, is nothing new. Everyone has heard it. To assume out of hand that other's religion is error, and that they come with the correct answer, is insulting and only makes the "messenger" look stupid. Don't they get sick of "saving" each other over and over? Of course, some genuinely want to help the world, and actually do. There's nothing wrong with that. But one thing leads to another, and before you know it, you've got Shiite Moslems, or Calvinists, or the Promise Keepers. They claim it is "compassion" that drives them to proselytize; but it is not. Nagging doubt presses them to convert others, for when others fall in line, the Christian mythos gets another "yes" vote, so it must be right. Callous, xenophobic, and lacking experience of the larger world, fundamentalists see the devil's hoofprints everywhere, in anything outside of their sheltered, one-dimensional lifestyle. Fundamentalists personify the 'Ugly Americans.' (Elsewhere in the world, United States citizens have a reputation for being loud, insensitive, pushy, infantile, and myopic; hence "Ugly Americans.") Fundies achieve this within our own borders, with the same selfish oblivion to the experience of others. Like the loudmouthed polyester-clad boor in Italy, the Fundie assumes that everyone speaks his language, and that they're just pretending not to. If he's just loud enough, and pushy enough, 'these half-wits will get the point.' The natives shudder and avert their eyes in disgust. Believe it or not, different people and cultures can have a different experience of the world than the one in Tulsa, or Dade City. The fundamentalist inability to appreciate the mystical side of their religion is most to be pitied. Were they able to see more deeply, they would become more flexible, and healthy. The Passion of Christ [now on DVD at the supermarket], doesn't require much comment. The most succinct analysis I have read is from CNN's website where they quoted "Gianni," a 69 year old businessman from from Italy, who puts it best: "It was irritating, religious pornography. Christ preached everything against what this film's about. He was a man who preached non-violence, peacefulness, love, and this is a movie of hate. I think it's a shameful movie. It shouldn't be seen by children. It's a product of religious fanaticism." Fundamentalism is Anti-God The contradictions that exist in Bible religion are at the core of its mysticism. Contemplating the Trinity or the Binding of Isaac is to contemplate contradiction, which opens the mind to mystery. How can God be all-powerful, creating distant galaxies, and also be active in human history, concerned about our every thought? The mystics of Bible religion freely admit that there are ambiguities and impossibilities in the Bible; they are able to use these to get closer to the Eternal One. The mystics don't carry signs that say "God Hates Fags," though, because they know better. Only literalists, with their limited learning and understanding, attempt the hopeless task of making every word stand up to modern rational scrutiny (and their own stunted agendas). This is destroying religion, ripping the mystery out of it and turning it into pre-fab fast food. Many people HATE religion, because of its various ugly failings. What do they turn to? Consumer Culture. Tragic, no? Most religions share similar principles and basic laws; the differences in the outward appearances of different belief systems are like different languages, or dialects. Spiritually-directed people employ their religion to bring them closer to Source, or God; while Ego-driven people use their religion for their power hunger, trying to convert everyone around them. Mysticism is where all religions become alike, and where the differences disappear. The anti-intellectualism of fundamentalism makes mysticism impossible. Christian Ayatollahs whip their sheep into frenzies by scapegoating and playing on their fears. Simplistic solutions ignore the life-realities of people not in the cult. Spoon-feeding selected propaganda to their flocks, Mullah-Pastors transmit the 'word-' at least their version of it. Fundamentalism puts the beliefs and opinions of men, of people, first. It grows from a sense of entitlement - the arrogance that true spirituality works to eliminate, and replace with gratefulness and acts of kindness. The translators and compilers of the Bible left out many things crucial to Jesus' message, because his message was love and did not allow for a corrupt 'religious' bureaucracy. Some ways Christianity differs from it's mother religion, Judaism Christianity focuses on man, while its mother religion, Judaism, focuses more on God. Cynically, doubting our ability to improve, Christianity dwells on the corruption in humanity, death, and avoidance of Hell. Judaism, the religion that Christianity evolved out of, puts God and Torah (the Bible) at the center, trusting and cultivating our potential to come near, and says "choose life!" (not referring to the terrible choice some women have to make). Christianity puts intermediaries (Jesus, Saints, Popes, Bishops, Priests, etc.) between people and God; Judaism allows a direct connection. Judaism does not claim to be the only way to get close to God, while Christianity does. Christianity is uncomfortable with learning and an intellectual approach; Judaism sees scholarship as a core element of spirituality. Judaism is not just Christianity without Jesus. Unlike Christianity, un-assimilated Judaism is deeply mystical, intellectual, challenging, and growth-oriented, while at the same time being passionate, humorous, lively, and playful. These differences don't need to create antagonism however - if people would live up to the higher ethical standards their religions have in common, there would be few problems. [Except of course with Muslims, who are explicitly instructed in the Koran and the Hadith to decimate the infidel] "The pursuit of knowledge, unless sanctified by a holy mission, is a pagan act, and therefore vile." Saint Bernard of Clairvaux (1190-1153) "An ignorant man cannot be pious." Hillel 1st century "But though it is certain that the Catholic Church, through its propaganda, its popular appeals, its schools and universities, opened up the prospect of the modern educational state in Europe, it is equally certain that the Catholic Church never intended to do anything of the sort. It did not send out knowledge with its blessing; it let it loose inadvertently. It was not the Roman Republic whose heir the Church esteemed itself, but the Roman Emporor." H.G. Wells, Outline of History Bibliolatry: Turning a book into an idol. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "He who begins by loving Christianity better than Truth will proceed by loving his own sect or church better than Christianity, and end by loving himself better than all." Samuel Taylor Coleridge (1772-1834) "Fanaticism is...overcompensation for doubt." - Robertson Davies, the Manticore "Why do born-again people so often make you wish they'd never been born the first time?" - Katherine Whitehorn, British Journalist, The Observer, May 20, 1979 I could never be a Satanist because I could never follow a belief system with its roots in the Bible. (Joe Christ) "What we really need, after all, is not to defend the Bible but to understand it." Millar Burrows "In order to justify their behavior, they turn their theories into dogmas, their bylaws into First Principles, their political bosses into Gods and all those who disagree with them into incarnate devils. This idolatrous transformation of the relative into the Absolute and the all too human into the Divine, makes it possible for them to indulge their ugliest passions with a clear conscience and in the certainty that they are working for the Highest Good. And when the current beliefs come, in their turn, to look silly, a new set will be invented, so that the immemorial madness may continue to wear its customary mask of legality, idealism, and true religion." (Aldous Huxley, The Devils of Loudun, 1952, Harper and Brothers, NY, NY.) "What if we chose the wrong religion? We just making God madder and madder every Sunday." Homer J. Simpson. "If you take the Christian bible and put it out in the wind and the rain, soon the paper on which the words are printed will disintegrate and the words will be gone. Our bible IS the wind and the rain." - Herbalist Carol McGrath as told to her by a Native-American woman Since logic, reason, and historical precision play no part in Christianity, unfortunately, these disciplines are useless in discussions with Christians. Q. Why did God invent Mormons? A. So Christians would know how Jews feel. As is clearly demonstrated in a multitude of places, including the Jesus Seminar, the "words of Jesus" in the New Testament are fabricated, and cannot be attributed to the actual person of Yeshua ben Nazaret, and cannot accurately be called "The Truth." Overwrought "faith" does not change history, and quoting the book of John is meaningless in light of historical fact. "Organized Christianity has probably done more to retard the ideals that were its founder's than any other agency in the world." - Richard Le Gallienne (Peter) "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." Frank Herbert, Dune 1965 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- An Ancient Map of Self Knowledge and Exploration On Joy and Sorrow ...On Religion ... On Self Knowledge -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saul of Tarsus, the Cult of Mithras, and Christ's Blood -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you think of this page? Cast a vote, sling mud, throw money... View Guestbook Sign Guestbook This Page is Dedicated to Reverend Fred Phelps, Will Perkins, Ralph Reed, and Pat Robertson. Also to these People, and These. Here are more Christians attacking any mythology that doesn't match theirs. Look who's back: Christian Gallery Shameless blood and guts Xtianity. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Before firing off E Mail defending the Bible and its inerrancy, Please Read the following. (And consider it a response in advance.) People invariably send email showing they have not read (or are incapable of comprehending) this page completely, or this one, this one, this one, this one, or this one. Double standards do not prove anything, and faith is NOT proof. I am not an "atheist." Just because someone is not a fundamentalist Christian, don't assume they are an atheist. (Nor do I have a problem with Atheists, unless they're also fundamentalists.) There is nothing in these contradictions that alters Christian or Jewish doctrine. All they do is prove that the Bible contradicts itself. Time considerations don't allow me to engage in lengthy e-mail discussions. Most of people's comments have already been addressed in these pages. The 'zealotry' of this page is illusory - little bits have been added occasionally over several years, so it only seems fanatical. The fertilizer that makes it bigger are recurring revelations of fundamentalist malevolence. Yes, there is good in Christianity; not all are tight-lipped culturally stunted social-engineers. Just because your superstitious, contradictory, and primitive belief system does not jibe with my superstitious, contradictory, and primitive belief system, doesn't mean we're both not wrong. These pages hopefully inspire a deeper reading of the Christian metaphor; they don't reject it. If you do not like this page, go Here In answer to a common Bible-taught Christian misspelling: "Hypocrites" simulate virtue or goodness [the word is derived from hypokrites, meaning actor. (Thanks Janwr)]; "Hippocrates" was a Greek from 500 BCE who is considered the "Father of Medicine" - hence, the Hippocratic oath taken by doctors -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please: Print, copy, and distribute this page freely! If linked or posted, drop a URL. Please report any errors, quoting chapter and verse to the webmaster. Thank You. Fundamentalist's Flat Earth Borndigital Site Guide Links out on the web... A CNN article: The Hidden Jesus Links within the Borndigital domain: Some Bible History John Calvin, the First Fundamentalist George Santayana on Religion The Nuclear Family Meltdown Debunking Fundamentalism Lewdness in the Vatican - Lucrezia Borgia, her Brothers, and the Pope So Many Christian Atrocities , and The Spanish Inquisition Read some Biblical psychedelia from the Revelation. Lifetide - the origin of life on Earth The Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians The Big Sensation of July, 1925 - The "Scopes Monkey Trial" - Fumbling Fundamentalism What's up with this symbol, anyway? (Click to Find Out) Isaiah 34: (KJV) "6:The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. "7: And the unicorns (translations vary) shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. Actually, Tammy's latest incarnation is delightful in "Surreal Life," with Ron Jeremy the Porn Star.

120 Started to read your second book err post, but there is way to much irrevilant Religious stuff in there for me skipped over most of it!! So i will just concentrate on what interested me,your bit on the "Ottoman Empire",hehe you forgot a few things about the "Great,Kind,Loving,Ottomans"! 1st of Nissan : Happy New Year ! Remembering the 1915-1918 Genocide Over two million Assyrians, Chaldeans and Armenians—the Christian minorities of the region—lost their lives in what was to be the first act of genocide of the 20th century. The "Ottoman Empire", specifically the " Young Turks " and other rulers of wartime Turkey, deliberately and systematically set about to remove the population from the region through campaigns of mass persecution, intimidation and assasination. For a people whose national tragedy has never been officially recognised, the pain of the Assyrian genocide continues. The Assyrian genocide began on 5th June 1915 in Tur Abdin. Within a month, 10,000 of the more than 500,000 Assyrian victims had been killed. First-hand reports of the attrocities tell of the most horrific of acts : the heads of little children smashed with stones, the bodies of girls and women who refused conversion to "Islam" cut into pieces, men routinely decapitated and their bodies thrown into wells or streams, priests burned alive and the rest of the population left to poverty, hunger, diseases or forced to flee as they were able. Further reports tell of a mass exodus of people walking in silence from their homes and villages, the so-called spared victims, who found refuge and resettlement beyond the Ottoman influence. A first wave of persecution exploded in 1894 under the impulse of Kurdish despots escaping the control of the power of Istanbul. The murders and abductions were accompanied by numerous forced conversions. The worst, however, was yet to come. Together with the deportation and the massacre of the Armenians, the Ottomans also attacked the Syriacs in the spring of 1915. Various current figures agree that the number of Syriac deaths in the single province of Diyarbakir amounted to 80.000. The disappearance of these communities continued throughout the whole of the century, principally the result of a more or less forced emigration. Today, there are no more than a few hundred Syriacs to keep alive this settlement which is nearly two thousand years old. Within the present-day boundaries of Turkey, Christian minorities which represented 12% of the population in 1900, now comprise only 0,6% of the country’s inhabitants. It is well known that the First World War began in July 1914. Yet it is a little known fact that during this war, the Ottomans committed one of the bloodiest genocides in history. The leader of the Ottomans at the time was Sultan Vahdettin. After the Christian Balkan population received their independence in 1912, the Ottoman Empire suffered heavy territory losses in Africa and Arabia through both Arab and non-Arab rebellions. The Empire was also limited in Mesopotamia, Trachia and Anatolia. The Ottomans wanted to overcome their defeat and prevent a complete breakdown of their state through the First World War. Anxious that they could lose more territories, which were mostly populated by Christians, they enacted a plan for genocide in 1915. With the jihad (Holy Islamic War), the Christian people became enemies and traitors and, as a result, the war would begin. World War I gave with its beginning in 1914 the best conditions for this attack. Hundreds of thousands of Hellenes, Armenians and Assyrian-Syriacs were killed or starved to death due to famine or disease and hundreds of thousands more were driven out of their home country. The remaining children and women were forced to join the Islamic religion. your to involved with "Religion","Amaad", you need to step back and look at the "Real World", not the "Islam" is a peacefull religon and all is ok one ! You may think "Islam" is a peacefull religion m8, but everyday i hear about "Islamic" Suicide bombers, and not just in "Iraq" or directed towards "Westeners", but now "Muslims" are killing "Muslims" wholesale all over the world! I think you should go preach to them "Amaad" not to me !

121 i ain't preaching mate,i'm trying to talk you into sense so you understand(in that sterotypoicalnarrowminded brain) that not all Muslims are terrorists

122 o up before the big post and reasd it there will be a question there for you so i beg you answer it.

123 In the Sudan, the war is really not a religious war, but an economic war. There are thousands and thousands of Muslims in the south who are being decimated by the Muslims of the north who seem to see only skin color before they shoot. The missionaries in Southern Sudan want to make the world believe that Muslims are slaughtering Christians, but, alas, as always, it's about a large oil reserve. The "so-called" rebels are fighting to preserve the part of the country that belongs to them and they embrace their Muslim brothers in fighting for the land and the resources. In 1999, The then US secretary of state Madeleine Albright met colonel John Garang, the Sudanese People's Liberation Army (SPLA) chief, in Nairobi on October 23, and offered him 'food aid' for his group if he spurned the Libyan-Egyptian peace initiative and continued fighting. Several of the smaller tribes in the South are victims of SPLA aggression, which gets its main support from the Dinka, the largest tribe in the area. Many of their members have fled north to avoid the fighting and to remain out of SPLA-controlled areas, making a nonsense of the notion that the Sudanese war is between 'northern Muslims' and 'southern Christians'. Most of the southern population are animist, and there are more Muslims there than Christians, thanks to migration and conversions over the years. The US is clearly only interested in pursuing its strategic policies, and does not care how many Sudanese Muslims, Christians or animists die. We are misled by the media in the West because they want us to believe that Muslims are slaughtering Christians because of their religion. Not So!

124 i see the world pop, don't worry i see people dying everyday i see israelis demolishing houses and murdering babies i see palestinians blowing themselves i see the people of kashmir made the victim of india and pakistan policies i see hindus muredring the muslims of Gujarat i see the huge legacy islam has left on this world and still leaving but everyone is ungratyeful i see the complete ignorance of the media to the plight of muslims in lots of countries Not all Muslims are terrorists and Islam does not condone such inhuman acts. No one disputes that. This act threatens all things that are good about the US and we must guard against it jealously. We must not allow the terrorists under any circumstances to alter our values and our sense of fairness and justice. It violates all that Islam stands for and must be condemned without reservation. more later on

125 Islam has done a lot for thw world Christianity has done a lot for the world Judaism has done a lot for the world Bhuddism has done a lto for the world Hinduism has done a lot for the world All these religons have huge nubers of followers Most of them peacefull, law-abiding and loving citizens of this planet Yet thereare extremists on all sides, What you do Pop is that you judge a religon and its followers by the minority. you don't look at the good nature of a religon you don't look att all its followers Thats what makes you a bad person you look at one thing that is wrongwith a person and attribute its characters to all people of a group. You are feulled by the negative images most of the western tabloids give about islam Why don't you When you wake up in morning, start a new leaf judge people individually think for yourself, don't let the media think for you realise that Islam preaches peace some of the followers of Islam preach violence but isn't that a problem all religons have realize that Islam is under attack as well realize that Islam suffers just as much from terrorists attacks. realize that President Bush and Prime Minister Blair are good men ( though i don't agree with their policies in Iraq and Israel/Palestine) The war on terror is a good thing but WE( YES WE, FOR THIS IS A GLOBAL WAR) will never win without unity. Today in my town, i attended a muilti faith ceremony, CHristians, Muslims, Jews, Bhuddists, Sikhs and Atheists) were all present, we all agreed that the war on terror was a good thing AND we all agreed Islam was a peacefull religon BUT MOST OF ALL we agreed that to win the war on terror we need to have unity We need to stop people like Al- QAEDA and YOU who make lies and attempt to pervert peoples thoughts with more lies and false ideaoligies. MAY GOD SHOW YOU AND AL-QAEDA THE ERROR OF YOUR WAYS

126 wow, I really agree with Amaad in that last post, but not the part about bush being a good person ( in my opinion)As far as the "war on terror" theres no way we or anyone can win this war. I believe its just Vietnam 2. Like i said many times before i dont think theres anything more to do in Iraq, first of all once u ...lets say...eleminate all the al-qaeda camps located in the area, that wont stop the ones in indonesia or anywhere else in the world. Shit we even have American terrorist right here at home. So i believe this is a war that never should have happened, all Bush did was sturr a hornets nest and now we'll prolly suffer more because of him wanting to go down in history as the MIGHTY ONE WHO BROUGHT DOWN A TERRORIST EMPIRE. But dont get me wrong about the armed forces over there fighting i have nothing but respect form them in doing what their doing, they just do what their told to do, And hopfully within the next few months or so ill be in Iraq myself. and yes Amaad i feel that pop dosent understand, yes he post some fact based stuff but that dosent solve his problem with judging others beliefs. Stuck in his own ways, just makes him ignorant to many other cultures of the world and how they run things. I guess only time will tell

127 Hey Amaad, I told you I would check back. I see you are still plugging along. I enjoy reading you.

128 Actually, the views i gave on Predsident Busha and Blair have now been changed due to BAHAMUTS explanation and view BAHAMUT you are absolutely right, i have 100% admiration for you, you are right none of this wouldn't have happened if PRes bush/Blair hadn't 'stirred the hornets nest'. May God bless every step you take in Iraq. What i don't get is the blatant ignorance off Pop, the waY HE SPREADS LIES. YES THERE IS SOME GOOD STUFF WRITTEN BEHIBND THE anti-Islamic stuff. the Armenians backed the russian govenrments hostilty towards the Ottomans, they tried to plot against the sultan and tries to assasinate them( once again each person, race, country has a good side and a bad side. HOWIE thanx for continiung to read may God bless you. This is a much better way of explaining a 14 year olds grief, agony and sadness than blowing myself up ( god Forbid). TO POP WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES LETS HOPE WE LEARN FROM THEM Jeruslam, the centre of three religons, expeienced the longest period of stabilituy under the ottomans, when peace abundance and prospereity reigned there Christians, Jews and Muslims worshiped as they pleased and honoured their beliefs while following there custoums Many American and Turkish scholars have agreed to resolve the middle easts problems the must ressurect an 'OTTOMAN NATION SYSTEM' ( Proff e Edward Said) The Ottomans let mUslim moors and jews who had been thrown out of Spain to worship freely in Palestine. EAch and every civilization has its tales of peace, security, love- war, conflict and hatred. Make sure we remember both their good and bas side. ARMENIAN LIERS AND THE TRUTH ============================ A SECOND-CLASS CHRISTIAN SOCIETY (ARMENIANS) ARE BEING EXPLOITED BY FIRST-CLASS CHRISTIAN(!) SOCIETIES LIKE FRANCE ETC. ARMENIANS KNOW THAT THEY HAVE FOUHT AGAINST THE TURKS IN TURKEY UNDER THE COVER OF FRENCH MILITARY UNIFORMS!!! ISN'T THIS BETRAYAL TO YOUR MOTHERLAND, TO THE PEOPLE OF THE LAND WHERE YOU LIVE? ARMENIANS MASSACRED TURKS UNDER THE DISGUISE OF FRENCH MILITARY UNIFORMS! AND THEY WERE PROVOKED BY THEIR PRIESTS AND BLACK-BEARDED MEN OF RELIGION (!)... AS SECOND-CLASS CHRISTIANS, ARMENIANS WILL ALWAYS BE USED BY THE WEST TO TRY TO TERRORIZE OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD.... REAL ARMENIANS ARE STILL LIVING IN TURKEY FOR CENTURIES AND THEY NEVER MIGRATED BECAUSE THEY NEVER BETRAYED THEIR LAND... OTHER ARMENIANS ARE LIKE GYPSIES NOW... LIVING HERE AND THERE... IN PARIS AND SOMETIMES IN THE US... WHY ARE THEY ESCAPING? THEY ARE ESCAPING FROM THEIR SHAMEFUL AND SINFUL PAST! posted by yemlini on this web page

129 I HOPE WE ALL LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES. :-)

130 Genghis Khan disliked the fact that muslims worshiped a god who was higher than him so he sent in his brother to kill him. there was no trade road. why did Oglite khan convert to Islam, because when he went into Baghdad, with tho sole purpose of sacking the city. He was so impressed with the Islamic society( ecspecially zakah) that he converted to islam.

131 Onward Christian Terrorists by Edgar J. Steele, November 5, 2003 "There's no earthly way of knowing which direction we are going. There's no knowing where we're rowing Or which way the river's flowing..." The Boat Ride Poem, Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, 1971 Last week, before a cheering throng at a Dallas Christian youth Center, George II claimed that God chose him to lead America. Glad that has been cleared up. For the longest time, I wondered how he got the job. George is on a Mission >From God, you know. To kill. Must be an Old Testament thing, because I don't recall Jesus having exhorted his Disciples to kill in God's name. Most internet followers now have heard of very recent US preparations taking place in Europe - the sort of preparations that precede America's wading into yet another small, defenseless Arab country in pursuit of Israeli Middle East hegemony. It appears that George II's reluctance to undergo another Afghanistan or Iraq prior to next year's election somehow has been overcome. Seems he has learned nothing from his plummeting poll numbers. Or, like the chronic gambler, perhaps he is thinking, "Just one more roll of the dice...then my number will come up...then I'll be a winner...just one more roll..." By the way, am I the only one who remembers that, four years ago, George II came from nowhere, virtually overnight, to become the Republican frontrunner - and in possession of a record-breaking war chest? At the time, I said, "George who?" Recent revelations concerning computerized vote machine rigging provide part of the answer. Winning the key electoral state, which just happened to be governed by his own brother, albeit by judicial edict, yields more of the solution. George's appointment of the Chosen to virtually all key government power positions provides still more. George's crusade (carefully chosen word there) against all things Arab completes the puzzle. George is on a Mission From God. The Old Testament God, at that. The jewish God. Written by jews, the Old Testament is known as the Tanakh to the Chosen. The Tanakh consists of three parts, one of which is the Torah, encompassing the first five books of Moses. The Talmud consists of all jewish religious teachings, including the Tanakh. Christian fundamentalists (think George II - think John Ashcroft) believe the Old Testament is the literal word of God, to be followed to the letter. They believe the Muslim mosque sitting atop Jerusalem's Dome of the Rock must be destroyed, so that a Biblically-foreseen jewish temple can be constructed in its place. Never mind that this mosque is one of the holiest shrines to more than a billion Muslims around the world. Incredibly, many fundamentalist sects actually have amassed substantial building funds to assist with raising that jewish temple. And don't forget Armageddon, which is to be fought nearby - and won by the jews, with the full support of Christians, of course. Else, no rapture. No Second Coming, either. Jerry Falwell clearly enunciates the fundamentalist posture in his book, The Fundamentalist Phenomenon: "To stand against Israel is to stand against God." Understanding fundamentalist George II's claim to be on a Mission From God, not to mention America's unflinching support of Israel, a little better now? I still say it sounded better coming from Dan Ackroyd in The Blues Brothers. That is why American Christian fundamentalists have become so cozy with Israel, which predictably is the star of Biblical/Talmudic events and prophecy. Don't forget, there is the issue about whether modern-day Israel is the same as the Biblical Israel. Or, whether modern-day jews are descended from the Biblical tribe of Judah, or merely are some Eastern European interlopers wearing the name, like the human skin worn by the demented killer in Silence of the Lambs. But those are distinctions that never cross the unfurrowed brows of American fundamentalists. Nor do Christian fundamentalists worry much about the New Testament requirement that all jews get religion in the old-time sense and accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior. Or that American jews are bent upon eradicating Christianity altogether. Of course, Israel primarily is an atheistic country, so it has no problem with subverting American religious naiveté to its own political ends. And subversion is something that the Chosen do so well. In fact, the official motto of the Mossad, Israel's secret service, is "By way of Deception, Thou Shalt Do War." Consider the USS Liberty, for example. 9-11, for another. That is why American jews, historically the most left-wing element of society, have recast themselves as Neoconservatives and seized control of the Republican party. In the single most interesting aspect of this entire spectacle, while the Chosen use their fellow travelers in America to strike Christianity from all public venues, they simultaneously use American Christians to advance their plans for world domination. Look, nobody could just make something like this up. I still find this odd couple pairing to be nothing short of incredible. My own brother, a card-carrying Southern Baptist, recently told me he thought the jews could do no wrong and that he wished every Arab in the world was dead. Maybe I was adopted. America will become the textbook case study for nationwide Stockholm Syndrome, whereby the abused becomes bonded to the abuser as a means to endure pain, privation and violence. Incidentally, the condition was named in memory of four Swedes who, in 1973, were held hostage for six days in a bank vault and became attached to their captors. Very recently, America provided nuclear missiles that Israel can deploy on its fleet of German-provided submarines. This, in addition to several hundred homemade nukes already resting in Israel's bunkers. Israel now clearly possesses the means to make Biblical prophecy seem to come true, so as to drag America along for the ride and do Israel's dirty work, enroute to Judaica Uber Alle.

132 17 November Revolutionary Organisation (N17): N17 is a terrorist organisation that aims to highlight and protest at what it deems to be imperialist and corrupt actions, using violence. Formed in 1974 to oppose the Greek military Junta, its stance was initially anti-Junta and anti-US, which it blamed for supporting the Junta. . International Sikh Youth Federation (ISYF): ISYF is an organisation committed to the creation of an independent state of Khalistan for Sikhs within India Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE): The LTTE is a terrorist group fighting for a separate Tamil state in the North and East of Sri Lanka Proscribed Irish groups Continuity Army Council Cumann na mBan Fianna na hEireann Irish National Liberation Army Irish People's Liberation Organisation Loyalist Volunteer Force Orange Volunteers Red Hand Commando Red Hand Defenders Saor Eire Ulster Defence Association Ulster Freedom Fighters Ulster Volunteer Force

133 Aum Supreme Truth (Aum) a.k.a. Aum Shinrikyo, Aleph Description A cult established in 1987 by Shoko Asahara, the Aum aimed to take over Japan, then the world. Approved as a religious entity in 1989 under Japanese law, the group ran candidates in a Japanese parliamentary election in 1990. Over time the cult began to emphasize the imminence of the end of the world and stated that the United States would initiate Armageddon by starting World War III with Japan. The Japanese Government revoked its recognition of the Aum as a religious organization in October 1995, but in 1997 a government panel decided not to invoke the Anti-Subversive Law against the group, which would have outlawed the cult. In 2000, Fumihiro Joyu took control of the Aum following his three-year jail sentence for perjury. Joyu was previously the group's spokesman and Russia Branch leader. Under Joyu's leadership the Aum changed its name to Aleph and claims to have rejected the violent and apocalyptic teachings of its founder. Activities On 20 March 1995, Aum members simultaneously released the chemical nerve agent sarin on several Tokyo subway trains, killing 12 persons and injuring up to 6,000. (Recent studies put the number of persons who suffered actual physical injuries closer to 1,300, with the rest suffering from some form of psychological trauma.) The group was responsible for other mysterious chemical accidents in Japan in 1994. Its efforts to conduct attacks using biological agents have been unsuccessful. Japanese police arrested Asahara in May 1995, and he remained on trial, facing 17 counts of murder at the end of 2000. Since 1997 the cult continued to recruit new members, engage in commercial enterprise, and acquire property, although the cult scaled back these activities significantly in 2000 in response to public outcry. The cult maintains an Internet homepage. Strength The Aum's current membership is estimated at 1,500 to 2,000 persons. At the time of the Tokyo subway attack, the group claimed to have 9,000 members in Japan and up to 40,000 worldwide. Location/Area of Operation The Aum's principal membership is located only in Japan, but a residual branch comprising an unknown number of followers has surfaced in Russia. External Aid None.

134 Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA) a.k.a. Euzkadi Ta Askatasuna Description Founded in 1959 with the aim of establishing an independent homeland based on Marxist principles in the northern Spanish provinces of Vizcaya, Guipuzcoa, Alava, and Navarra and the southwestern French departments of Labourd, Basse-Navarra, and Soule. Activities Primarily bombings and assassinations of Spanish Government officials, especially security and military forces, politicians, and judicial figures. ETA finances its activities through kidnappings, robberies, and extortion. The group has killed more than 800 persons since it began lethal attacks in the early 1960s. In November 1999, ETA broke its "unilateral and indefinite" cease-fire and began an assassination and bombing campaign that killed 23 individuals and wounded scores more by the end of 2000. Strength Unknown; may have hundreds of members, plus supporters. Location/Area of Operation Operates primarily in the Basque autonomous regions of northern Spain and southwestern France, but also has bombed Spanish and French interests elsewhere. External Aid Has received training at various times in the past in Libya, Lebanon, and Nicaragua. Some ETA members allegedly have received sanctuary in Cuba while others reside in South America. Also appears to have ties to the Irish Republican Army through the two groups' legal political wings

135 Japanese Red Army (JRA) a.k.a. Anti-Imperialist International Brigade (AIIB) Description An international terrorist group formed around 1970 after breaking away from Japanese Communist League-Red Army Faction. The JRA was led by Fusako Shigenobu until her arrest in Japan in November 2000. The JRA's historical goal has been to overthrow the Japanese Government and monarchy and to help foment world revolution. After her arrest Shigenobu announced she intended to pursue her goals using a legitimate political party rather than revolutionary violence. May control or at least have ties to Anti-Imperialist International Brigade (AIIB); also may have links to Antiwar Democratic Front--an overt leftist political organization--inside Japan. Details released following Shigenobu's arrest indicate that the JRA was organizing cells in Asian cities, such as Manila and Singapore. Has history of close relations with Palestinian terrorist groups--based and operating outside Japan--since its inception, primarily through Shigenobu. The current status of these connections is unknown. Activities During the 1970s, the JRA carried out a series of attacks around the world, including the massacre in 1972 at Lod Airport in Israel, two Japanese airliner hijackings, and an attempted takeover of the US Embassy in Kuala Lumpur. In April 1988, JRA operative Yu Kikumura was arrested with explosives on the New Jersey Turnpike, apparently planning an attack to coincide with the bombing of a USO club in Naples, a suspected JRA operation that killed five, including a US servicewoman. He was convicted of the charges and is serving a lengthy prison sentence in the United States. Tsutomu Shirosaki, captured in 1996, is also jailed in the United States. In 2000, Lebanon deported to Japan four members it arrested in 1997, but granted a fifth operative, Kozo Okamoto, political asylum. Longtime leader Shigenobu was arrested in November 2000 and faces charges of terrorism and passport fraud. Strength About six hard-core members; undetermined number of sympathizers. Location/Area of Operations Location unknown, but possibly traveling in Asia or Syrian-controlled areas of Lebanon. External Aid Unknown.

136 Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) Description Founded in 1974 as a Marxist-Leninist insurgent group primarily composed of Turkish Kurds. The group's goal has been to establish an independent Kurdish state in southeastern Turkey, where the population is predominantly Kurdish. In the early 1990s, the PKK moved beyond rural-based insurgent activities to include urban terrorism. Turkish authorities captured Chairman Abdullah Ocalan in Kenya in early 1999; the Turkish State Security Court subsequently sentenced him to death. In August 1999, Ocalan announced a "peace initiative," ordering members to refrain from violence and withdraw from Turkey and requesting dialogue with Ankara on Kurdish issues. At a PKK Congress in January 2000, members supported Ocalan's initiative and claimed the group now would use only political means to achieve its new goal, improved rights for Kurds in Turkey. Activities Primary targets have been Turkish Government security forces in Turkey. Conducted attacks on Turkish diplomatic and commercial facilities in dozens of West European cities in 1993 and again in spring 1995. In an attempt to damage Turkey's tourist industry, the PKK bombed tourist sites and hotels and kidnapped foreign tourists in the early-to-mid-1990s. Strength Approximately 4,000 to 5,000, most of whom currently are located in northern Iraq. Has thousands of sympathizers in Turkey and Europe. Location/Area of Operation Operates in Turkey, Europe, and the Middle East. External Aid Has received safehaven and modest aid from Syria, Iraq, and Iran. The Syrian Government expelled PKK leader Ocalan and known elements of the group from its territory in October 1998.

137 Appendix B: Background Information on Terrorist Groups Patterns of Global Terrorism - 2000 Released by the Office of the Coordinator for Counterterrorism April 30, 2001 The following descriptive list of terrorist groups is presented in two sections. The first section lists the 29 groups that currently are designated by the Secretary of State as Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTOs), pursuant to section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act, as amended by the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996. The designations carry legal consequences: It is unlawful to provide funds or other material support to a designated FTO. Representatives and certain members of a designated FTO can be denied visas or excluded from the United States. US financial institutions must block funds of designated FTOs and their agents and must report the blockage to the US Department of the Treasury. The second section includes other terrorist groups that were active during 2000. Terrorist groups whose activities were limited in scope in 2000 are not included. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I. Designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations Abu Nidal organization (ANO) a.k.a. Fatah Revolutionary Council, Arab Revolutionary Brigades, Black September, and Revolutionary Organization of Socialist Muslims Description International terrorist organization led by Sabri al-Banna. Split from PLO in 1974. Made up of various functional committees, including political, military, and financial. Activities Has carried out terrorist attacks in 20 countries, killing or injuring almost 900 persons. Targets include the United States, the United Kingdom, France, Israel, moderate Palestinians, the PLO, and various Arab countries. Major attacks included the Rome and Vienna airports in December 1985, the Neve Shalom synagogue in Istanbul and the Pan Am flight 73 hijacking in Karachi in September 1986, and the City of Poros day-excursion ship attack in Greece in July 1988. Suspected of assassinating PLO deputy chief Abu Iyad and PLO security chief Abu Hul in Tunis in January 1991. ANO assassinated a Jordanian diplomat in Lebanon in January 1994 and has been linked to the killing of the PLO representative there. Has not attacked Western targets since the late 1980s. Strength A few hundred plus limited overseas support structure. Location/Area of Operation Al-Banna relocated to Iraq in December 1998, where the group maintains a presence. Has an operational presence in Lebanon, including in several Palestinian refugee camps. Financial problems and internal disorganization have reduced the group's activities and capabilities. Authorities shut down the ANO's operations in Libya and Egypt in 1999. Has demonstrated ability to operate over wide area, including the Middle East, Asia, and Europe. External Aid Has received considerable support, including safehaven, training, logistic assistance, and financial aid from Iraq, Libya, and Syria (until 1987), in addition to close support for selected operations. Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG) Description The ASG is the smallest and most radical of the Islamic separatist groups operating in the southern Philippines. Some ASG members have studied or worked in the Middle East and developed ties to mjuahidin while fighting and training in Afghanistan. The group split from the Moro National Liberation Front in 1991 under the leadership of Abdurajik Abubakar Janjalani, who was killed in a clash with Philippine police on 18 December 1998. Press reports place his younger brother, Khadafi Janjalani, as the nominal leader of the group, which is composed of several factions. Activities Engages in bombings, assassinations, kidnappings, and extortion to promote an independent Islamic state in western Mindanao and the Sulu Archipelago, areas in the southern Philippines heavily populated by Muslims. Raided the town of Ipil in Mindanao in April 1995--the group's first large-scale action--and kidnapped more than 30 foreigners, including a US citizen, in 2000. Strength Believed to have about 200 core fighters, but more than 2,000 individuals motivated by the prospect of receiving ransom payments for foreign hostages allegedly joined the group in August. Location/Area of Operation The ASG primarily operates in the southern Philippines with members occasionally traveling to Manila, but the group expanded its operations to Malaysia this year when it abducted foreigners from two different resorts. External Aid Probably receives support from Islamic extremists in the Middle East and South Asia. Armed Islamic Group (GIA) Description An Islamic extremist group, the GIA aims to overthrow the secular Algerian regime and replace it with an Islamic state. The GIA began its violent activities in 1992 after Algiers voided the victory of the Islamic Salvation Front (FIS)--the largest Islamic opposition party--in the first round of legislative elections in December 1991. Activities Frequent attacks against civilians and government workers. Between 1992 and 1998 the GIA conducted a terrorist campaign of civilian massacres, sometimes wiping out entire villages in its area of operation. Since announcing its campaign against foreigners living in Algeria in 1993, the GIA has killed more than 100 expatriate men and women--mostly Europeans--in the country. The group uses assassinations and bombings, including car bombs, and it is known to favor kidnapping victims and slitting their throats. The GIA hijacked an Air France flight to Algiers in December 1994. In late 1999 several GIA members were convicted by a French court for conducting a series of bombings in France in 1995. The Salafi Group for Call and Combat (GSPC) splinter faction appears to have eclipsed the GIA since approximately 1998 and is currently assessed to be the most effective remaining armed group inside Algeria. Both the GIA and GSPC leadership continue to proclaim their rejection of President Bouteflika's amnesty, but in contrast to the GIA, the GSPC has stated that it limits attacks on civilians. The GSPC's planned attack against the Paris-Dakar Road Rally in January 2000 demonstrates, however, that the group has not entirely renounced attacks against high-profile civilian targets. Strength Unkown; probably several hundred to several thousand. Location/Area of Operation Algeria. External Aid Algerian expatriates and GSPC members abroad, many of whom reside in Western Europe, provide financial and logistic support. In addition, the Algerian Government has accused Iran and Sudan of supporting Algerian extremists. Aum Supreme Truth (Aum) a.k.a. Aum Shinrikyo, Aleph Description A cult established in 1987 by Shoko Asahara, the Aum aimed to take over Japan, then the world. Approved as a religious entity in 1989 under Japanese law, the group ran candidates in a Japanese parliamentary election in 1990. Over time the cult began to emphasize the imminence of the end of the world and stated that the United States would initiate Armageddon by starting World War III with Japan. The Japanese Government revoked its recognition of the Aum as a religious organization in October 1995, but in 1997 a government panel decided not to invoke the Anti-Subversive Law against the group, which would have outlawed the cult. In 2000, Fumihiro Joyu took control of the Aum following his three-year jail sentence for perjury. Joyu was previously the group's spokesman and Russia Branch leader. Under Joyu's leadership the Aum changed its name to Aleph and claims to have rejected the violent and apocalyptic teachings of its founder. Activities On 20 March 1995, Aum members simultaneously released the chemical nerve agent sarin on several Tokyo subway trains, killing 12 persons and injuring up to 6,000. (Recent studies put the number of persons who suffered actual physical injuries closer to 1,300, with the rest suffering from some form of psychological trauma.) The group was responsible for other mysterious chemical accidents in Japan in 1994. Its efforts to conduct attacks using biological agents have been unsuccessful. Japanese police arrested Asahara in May 1995, and he remained on trial, facing 17 counts of murder at the end of 2000. Since 1997 the cult continued to recruit new members, engage in commercial enterprise, and acquire property, although the cult scaled back these activities significantly in 2000 in response to public outcry. The cult maintains an Internet homepage. Strength The Aum's current membership is estimated at 1,500 to 2,000 persons. At the time of the Tokyo subway attack, the group claimed to have 9,000 members in Japan and up to 40,000 worldwide. Location/Area of Operation The Aum's principal membership is located only in Japan, but a residual branch comprising an unknown number of followers has surfaced in Russia. External Aid None. Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA) a.k.a. Euzkadi Ta Askatasuna Description Founded in 1959 with the aim of establishing an independent homeland based on Marxist principles in the northern Spanish provinces of Vizcaya, Guipuzcoa, Alava, and Navarra and the southwestern French departments of Labourd, Basse-Navarra, and Soule. Activities Primarily bombings and assassinations of Spanish Government officials, especially security and military forces, politicians, and judicial figures. ETA finances its activities through kidnappings, robberies, and extortion. The group has killed more than 800 persons since it began lethal attacks in the early 1960s. In November 1999, ETA broke its "unilateral and indefinite" cease-fire and began an assassination and bombing campaign that killed 23 individuals and wounded scores more by the end of 2000. Strength Unknown; may have hundreds of members, plus supporters. Location/Area of Operation Operates primarily in the Basque autonomous regions of northern Spain and southwestern France, but also has bombed Spanish and French interests elsewhere. External Aid Has received training at various times in the past in Libya, Lebanon, and Nicaragua. Some ETA members allegedly have received sanctuary in Cuba while others reside in South America. Also appears to have ties to the Irish Republican Army through the two groups' legal political wings. Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya (Islamic Group, IG) Description Egypt's largest militant group, active since the late 1970s; appears to be loosely organized. Has an external wing with a worldwide presence. The group issued a cease-fire in March 1999, but its spiritual leader, Shaykh Umar Abd al-Rahman, incarcerated in the United States, rescinded his support for the cease-fire in June 2000. The Gama'a has not conducted an attack inside Egypt since August 1998. Rifa'i Taha Musa-a hardline former senior member of the group-signed Usama Bin Ladin's February 1998 fatwa calling for attacks against US civilians. The IG since has publicly denied that it supports Bin Ladin and frequently differs with public statements made by Taha Musa. Taha Musa has in the last year sought to push the group toward a return to armed operations, but the group, which still is led by Mustafa Hamza, has yet to break the unilaterally declared cease-fire. In late 2000, Taha Musa appeared in an undated video with Bin Ladin and Ayman al-Zawahiri threatening retaliation against the United States for Abd al-Rahman's continued incarceration. The IG's primary goal is to overthrow the Egyptian Government and replace it with an Islamic state, but Taha Musa also may be interested in attacking US and Israeli interests. Activities Group specialized in armed attacks against Egyptian security and other government officials, Coptic Christians, and Egyptian opponents of Islamic extremism before the cease-fire. From 1993 until the cease-fire, al-Gama'a launched attacks on tourists in Egypt, most notably the attack in November 1997 at Luxor that killed 58 foreign tourists. Also claimed responsibility for the attempt in June 1995 to assassinate Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. The Gama'a has never specifically attacked a US citizen or facility but has threatened US interests. Strength Unknown. At its peak the IG probably commanded several thousand hard-core members and a like number of sympathizers. The 1998 cease-fire and security crackdowns following the attack in Luxor in 1997 probably have resulted in a substantial decrease in the group's numbers. Location/Area of Operation Operates mainly in the Al-Minya, Asyu't, Qina, and Sohaj Governorates of southern Egypt. Also appears to have support in Cairo, Alexandria, and other urban locations, particularly among unemployed graduates and students. Has a worldwide presence, including Sudan, the United Kingdom, Afghanistan, Austria, and Yemen. External Aid Unknown. The Egyptian Government believes that Iran, Bin Ladin, and Afghan militant groups support the organization. Also may obtain some funding through various Islamic nongovernmental organizations. HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement) Description Formed in late 1987 as an outgrowth of the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Various HAMAS elements have used both political and violent means, including terrorism, to pursue the goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel. Loosely structured, with some elements working clandestinely and others working openly through mosques and social service institutions to recruit members, raise money, organize activities, and distribute propaganda. HAMAS's strength is concentrated in the Gaza Strip and a few areas of the West Bank. Also has engaged in peaceful political activity, such as running candidates in West Bank Chamber of Commerce elections. Activities HAMAS activists, especially those in the Izz el-Din al-Qassam Brigades, have conducted many attacks--including large-scale suicide bombings--against Israeli civilian and military targets. In the early 1990s, they also targeted suspected Palestinian collaborators and Fatah rivals. Claimed several attacks during the unrest in late 2000. Strength Unknown number of hard-core members; tens of thousands of supporters and sympathizers. Location/Area of Operation Primarily the occupied territories, Israel. In August 1999, Jordanian authorities closed the group's Political Bureau offices in Amman, arrested its leaders, and prohibited the group from operating on Jordanian territory. External Aid Receives funding from Palestinian expatriates, Iran, and private benefactors in Saudi Arabia and other moderate Arab states. Some fundraising and propaganda activities take place in Western Europe and North America. Harakat ul-Mujahidin (HUM) Description Formerly known as the Harakat al-Ansar, the HUM is an Islamic militant group based in Pakistan that operates primarily in Kashmir. Long-time leader of the group, Fazlur Rehman Khalil, in mid-February stepped down as HUM emir, turning the reins over to the popular Kashmiri commander and his second-in-command, Farooq Kashmiri. Khalil, who has been linked to Bin Ladin and signed his fatwa in February 1998 calling for attacks on US and Western interests, assumed the position of HUM Secretary General. Continued to operate terrorist training camps in eastern Afghanistan. Activities Has conducted a number of operations against Indian troops and civilian targets in Kashmir. Linked to the Kashmiri militant group al-Faran that kidnapped five Western tourists in Kashmir in July 1995; one was killed in August 1995 and the other four reportedly were killed in December of the same year. The new millennium brought significant developments for Pakistani militant groups, particularly the HUM. Most of these sprang from the hijacking of an Indian airliner on 24 December by militants believed to be associated with the HUM. The hijackers negotiated the release of Masood Azhar, an important leader in the former Harakat ul-Ansar imprisoned by the Indians in 1994. Azhar did not, however, return to the HUM, choosing instead to form the Jaish-e-Mohammed (JEM), a rival militant group expressing a more radical line than the HUM. Strength Has several thousand armed supporters located in Azad Kashmir, Pakistan, and India's southern Kashmir and Doda regions. Supporters are mostly Pakistanis and Kashmiris and also include Afghans and Arab veterans of the Afghan war. Uses light and heavy machineguns, assault rifles, mortars, explosives, and rockets. HUM lost some of its membership in defections to the JEM. Location/Area of Operation Based in Muzaffarabad, Rawalpindi, and several other towns in Pakistan and Afghanistan, but members conduct insurgent and terrorist activities primarily in Kashmir. The HUM trains its militants in Afghanistan and Pakistan. External Aid Collects donations from Saudi Arabia and other Gulf and Islamic states and from Pakistanis and Kashmiris. The sources and amount of HUM's military funding are unknown. Hizballah (Party of God) a.k.a. Islamic Jihad, Revolutionary Justice Organization, Organization of the Oppressed on Earth, and Islamic Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine Description Radical Shia group formed in Lebanon; dedicated to increasing its political power in Lebanon and opposing Israel and the Middle East peace negotiations. Strongly anti-West and anti-Israel. Closely allied with, and often directed by, Iran but may have conducted operations that were not approved by Tehran. Activities Known or suspected to have been involved in numerous anti-US terrorist attacks, including the suicide truck bombing of the US Embassy and US Marine barracks in Beirut in October 1983 and the US Embassy annex in Beirut in September 1984. Elements of the group were responsible for the kidnapping and detention of US and other Western hostages in Lebanon. The group also attacked the Israeli Embassy in Argentina in 1992 and is a suspect in the 1994 bombing of the Israeli cultural center in Buenos Aires. In fall 2000, it captured three Israeli soldiers in the Shabaa Farms and kidnapped an Israeli noncombatant whom it may have lured to Lebanon under false pretenses. Strength Several thousand supporters and a few hundred terrrorist operatives. Location/Area of Operation Operates in the Bekaa Valley, the southern suburbs of Beirut, and southern Lebanon. Has established cells in Europe, Africa, South America, North America, and Asia. External Aid Receives substantial amounts of financial, training, weapons, explosives, political, diplomatic, and organizational aid from Iran and Syria. Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU) Description Coalition of Islamic militants from Uzbekistan and other Central Asian states opposed to Uzbekistani President Islom Karimov's secular regime. Goal is the establishment of an Islamic state in Uzbekistan. The group's propaganda also includes anti-Western and anti-Israeli rhetoric. Activities Believed to be responsible for five car bombs in Tashkent in February 1999. Took hostages on several occasions in 1999 and 2000, including four US citizens who were mountain climbing in August 2000, and four Japanese geologists and eight Kyrgyzstani soldiers in August 1999. Strength Militants probably number in the thousands. Location/Area of Operation Militants are based in Afghanistan and Tajikistan. Area of operations includes Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Afghanistan. External Aid Support from other Islamic extremist groups in Central and South Asia. IMU leadership broadcasts statements over Iranian radio. Japanese Red Army (JRA) a.k.a. Anti-Imperialist International Brigade (AIIB) Description An international terrorist group formed around 1970 after breaking away from Japanese Communist League-Red Army Faction. The JRA was led by Fusako Shigenobu until her arrest in Japan in November 2000. The JRA's historical goal has been to overthrow the Japanese Government and monarchy and to help foment world revolution. After her arrest Shigenobu announced she intended to pursue her goals using a legitimate political party rather than revolutionary violence. May control or at least have ties to Anti-Imperialist International Brigade (AIIB); also may have links to Antiwar Democratic Front--an overt leftist political organization--inside Japan. Details released following Shigenobu's arrest indicate that the JRA was organizing cells in Asian cities, such as Manila and Singapore. Has history of close relations with Palestinian terrorist groups--based and operating outside Japan--since its inception, primarily through Shigenobu. The current status of these connections is unknown. Activities During the 1970s, the JRA carried out a series of attacks around the world, including the massacre in 1972 at Lod Airport in Israel, two Japanese airliner hijackings, and an attempted takeover of the US Embassy in Kuala Lumpur. In April 1988, JRA operative Yu Kikumura was arrested with explosives on the New Jersey Turnpike, apparently planning an attack to coincide with the bombing of a USO club in Naples, a suspected JRA operation that killed five, including a US servicewoman. He was convicted of the charges and is serving a lengthy prison sentence in the United States. Tsutomu Shirosaki, captured in 1996, is also jailed in the United States. In 2000, Lebanon deported to Japan four members it arrested in 1997, but granted a fifth operative, Kozo Okamoto, political asylum. Longtime leader Shigenobu was arrested in November 2000 and faces charges of terrorism and passport fraud. Strength About six hard-core members; undetermined number of sympathizers. Location/Area of Operations Location unknown, but possibly traveling in Asia or Syrian-controlled areas of Lebanon. External Aid Unknown. Al-Jihad a.k.a. Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Jihad Group, Islamic Jihad Description Egyptian Islamic extremist group active since the late 1970s. Close partner of Bin Ladin's al-Qaida organization. Suffered setbacks as a result of numerous arrests of operatives worldwide, most recently in Lebanon and Yemen. Primary goals are to overthrow the Egyptian Government and replace it with an Islamic state and attack US and Israeli interests in Egypt and abroad. Activities Specializes in armed attacks against high-level Egyptian Government personnel, including cabinet ministers, and car-bombings against official US and Egyptian facilities. The original Jihad was responsible for the assassination in 1981 of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat. Claimed responsibility for the attempted assassinations of Interior Minister Hassan al-Alfi in August 1993 and Prime Minister Atef Sedky in November 1993. Has not conducted an attack inside Egypt since 1993 and has never targeted foreign tourists there. Responsible for Egyptian Embassy bombing in Islamabad in 1995; in 1998, planned attack against US Embassy in Albania was thwarted. Strength Not known but probably has several hundred hard-core members. Location/Area of Operation Operates in the Cairo area. Has a network outside Egypt, including Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan, Lebanon, and the United Kingdom. External Aid Not known. The Egyptian Government claims that both Iran and Bin Ladin support the Jihad. Also may obtain some funding through various Islamic nongovernmental organizations, cover businesses, and criminal acts. Kach and Kahane Chai Description Stated goal is to restore the biblical state of Israel. Kach (founded by radical Israeli-American rabbi Meir Kahane) and its offshoot Kahane Chai, which means "Kahane Lives" (founded by Meir Kahane's son Binyamin following his father's assassination in the United States), were declared to be terrorist organizations in March 1994 by the Israeli Cabinet under the 1948 Terrorism Law. This followed the groups' statements in support of Dr. Baruch Goldstein's attack in February 1994 on the al-Ibrahimi Mosque--Goldstein was affiliated with Kach--and their verbal attacks on the Israeli Government. Palestinian gunmen killed Binyamin Kahane and his wife in a drive-by shooting on 31 December in the West Bank. Activities Organize protests against the Israeli Government. Harass and threaten Palestinians in Hebron and the West Bank. Have threatened to attack Arabs, Palestinians, and Israeli Government officials. Have vowed revenge for the death of Binyamin Kahane and his wife. Strength Unknown. Location/Area of Operation Israel and West Bank settlements, particularly Qiryat Arba' in Hebron. External Aid Receives support from sympathizers in the United States and Europe. Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) Description Founded in 1974 as a Marxist-Leninist insurgent group primarily composed of Turkish Kurds. The group's goal has been to establish an independent Kurdish state in southeastern Turkey, where the population is predominantly Kurdish. In the early 1990s, the PKK moved beyond rural-based insurgent activities to include urban terrorism. Turkish authorities captured Chairman Abdullah Ocalan in Kenya in early 1999; the Turkish State Security Court subsequently sentenced him to death. In August 1999, Ocalan announced a "peace initiative," ordering members to refrain from violence and withdraw from Turkey and requesting dialogue with Ankara on Kurdish issues. At a PKK Congress in January 2000, members supported Ocalan's initiative and claimed the group now would use only political means to achieve its new goal, improved rights for Kurds in Turkey. Activities Primary targets have been Turkish Government security forces in Turkey. Conducted attacks on Turkish diplomatic and commercial facilities in dozens of West European cities in 1993 and again in spring 1995. In an attempt to damage Turkey's tourist industry, the PKK bombed tourist sites and hotels and kidnapped foreign tourists in the early-to-mid-1990s. Strength Approximately 4,000 to 5,000, most of whom currently are located in northern Iraq. Has thousands of sympathizers in Turkey and Europe. Location/Area of Operation Operates in Turkey, Europe, and the Middle East. External Aid Has received safehaven and modest aid from Syria, Iraq, and Iran. The Syrian Government expelled PKK leader Ocalan and known elements of the group from its territory in October 1998. Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) Other known front organizations: World Tamil Association (WTA), World Tamil Movement (WTM), the Federation of Associations of Canadian Tamils (FACT), the Ellalan Force, the Sangilian Force. Description Founded in 1976, the LTTE is the most powerful Tamil group in Sri Lanka and uses overt and illegal methods to raise funds, acquire weapons, and publicize its cause of establishing an independent Tamil state. The LTTE began its armed conflict with the Sri Lankan Government in 1983 and relies on a guerrilla strategy that includes the use of terrorist tactics. Activities The Tigers have integrated a battlefield insurgent strategy with a terrorist program that targets not only key personnel in the countryside but also senior Sri Lankan political and military leaders in Colombo and other urban centers. The Tigers are most notorious for their cadre of suicide bombers, the Black Tigers. Political assassinations and bombings are commonplace. The LTTE has refrained from targeting foreign diplomatic and commercial establishments. Strength Exact strength is unknown, but the LTTE is estimated to have 8,000 to 10,000 armed combatants in Sri Lanka, with a core of trained fighters of approximately 3,000 to 6,000. The LTTE also has a significant overseas support structure for fundraising, weapons procurement, and propaganda activities. Location/Area of Operations The Tigers control most of the northern and eastern coastal areas of Sri Lanka but have conducted operations throughout the island. Headquartered in northern Sri Lanka, LTTE leader Velupillai Prabhakaran has established an extensive network of checkpoints and informants to keep track of any outsiders who enter the group's area of control. External Aid The LTTE's overt organizations support Tamil separatism by lobbying foreign governments and the United Nations. The LTTE also uses its international contacts to procure weapons, communications, and any other equipment and supplies it needs. The LTTE exploits large Tamil communities in North America, Europe, and Asia to obtain funds and supplies for its fighters in Sri Lanka. Information obtained since the mid-1980s indicates that some Tamil communities in Europe are also involved in narcotics smuggling. Tamils historically have served as drug couriers moving narcotics into Europe.

138 just another fact im pointed out after reading all the post here. It just tells me (opinion) that most of these (haters) are infact racist. When timothy mcvay blew up the O.K. building i bet ppl like Pop talked about it for a few days then forgot about it (Pop im not trying to single you out, im just using u as an example..i know there where many that did the same...no hard feelings) you know after a few days it got old, then some non white extream religious followers who again i say are misguided blow up two bulidings and ppl are still bitching about it to this day, and insted of trying to understand WHY they did it they just simply HATE them AND their religion, no questions asked not even trying to figure out the TRUE meaning of why they did what they did. They just put 2 and 2 together and hate it and prolly will teach their children to hate it and their children will grow up and hate them and they will teach their children to hate and so forth. You know who i look up to, i look up to Martin L. King. When the African Americans where being lynched in the south and getting beat in the street as they marched for equl rights, he still did not hate those who hated him, he kept his head up and he continued to stay strong and let nothing put him down. He said "...to fight hate with love, because if you continue to fight hate with hate it will only make a stronger hate." and i really agree with what he said, cuz in my opinion the only way to create a better world is to fight hate with love, cuz maybe JUST maybe those that hate will stop and JUST maybe relize what they are doing. Cuz on the inside we all bleed red....being different is what makes the world unique

139 totally true bahamut

140 POO sorry POP there are so many non-muslim, terroristt gropus that it would take me 100 years to write them out All these terrorist groups prove that whern you said 'all muslims are terrorists' was total bullshit. When you swore at the Muslim, Christian And Jewish God but praised Bhuddah, whic led me to think that you were bhuddist The Dalai Lamasaid that Islam, was a peacefull and beautiful religon.

141 how come it was that a Muslim, sufi, qawalli singer was thougt by many Buddhists to be the re-incarnation of Bhudda that when he sang , an hindu terrorist group, apologized to Pakistan that a person walked 980+ kilometres to hear him

142 "La Ilaha Illa Allah, Muhammadun Rasul Allah" "There is no God but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah" "This simple statement is the most powerful declaration ever devised. For beyond the words themselves lies a powerful concept and a compelling ideology." -Yahiya Emerick AL-QUR'AN: THE MIRACLE OF MIRACLES "And yet they ask for miracles. Was it not enough, that an unlettered person, remembered all, which is contained in the voluminous Book of the Holy Qur'an? And besides, the Book itself is a miracle, which could not have been produced except by Allah." (Qur'an, 10:37) "My real benefactor is this Book, The Qur'an. It has changed my course and brought me into Light from Darkness. This Book is such a luminescent lamp that whenever I cast its Light on anything, it becomes clear and pristine to me. The Qur'an is like a master key to me. It opens the door to the understanding and answers to the many intricate problems of our times." -Syed Abul Ala Maududi "The Qur'an is a book which is a poem, a code of laws, a book of common prayer, all in one, and is reverenced by a large section of the human race as a miracle of purity of style, of wisdom, and of truth. It is the one miracle claimed by Muhammad...and a miracle indeed it is." -Rev. Bosworth Smith

143 Just watch bush give a speech on the war and so on.... Talkin about he will only pull the troops out when the people of Iraq are ready to fight for themselfves. He goes on talking about how (Muslims) dont accept their women and if you dont believe the way they want you to believe they beat you in the street. But see bush just dosent get it, he thinks the world is soppose to be one giant America, like the world should live just one way. The people in the Middle East have been doing these things for thousands of years, thats just the way they do it, just cuz its not the AMERICAN way it automaticly makes them the enemy? If bush wants to make things better he should step out of office and stay at his ranch in Texas, and continue to feed his pigs and horses...with his rigged election. Flordia never had election problems until bush stepped up to the plate, and i guess his brother Jeb GOV. OF Flordia or whatever he is had nothing to do with it. Bet it wont happen next time. And Pop im just waiting on you to contradict me. Its just im so tired of bush's shit, and how he thinks he knows the needs of the world and the real corruption is really himself

144 as for me and the Army, i'd like to rephrase my words from my post a while back when i said "I disown my Islam faith" i rather say put it aside, cuz in the middle of combat, i dont think id feel good about myself if i killed a fellow misguided Muslim.

145 too right at Friday prayers we raised 1100+ pounds for a 12 year old christian who needed an automatic weelchair but could not afford it. In the holy month of Ramadan we raised 12million pounds( £1,695,356,58p to be precise) in 30days, this was ONE MOSQUE< IN ONE TOWN< IN ONE COUNTRY. THINK ABOUT HOW MUCH MONEY EVERY MOSQUE IN THE WORLD RAISED. THOUGHTFUL PAUSE POP answer my question i hope you read my rply to the ottoman massacre good luck in IRAQ bahamut

146 ni Message from the webmaster of www.islam101.com Sept. 11, 2001 is a very tragic and grievous day for all of us in America. These attacks are not just against America but also against the entire civilized world. The people responsible for these attacks are the worst of all creations of God. They have killed innocent people of many races and religions, including possibly several hundred Muslims who worked at the World Trade Center. Allah T'ala (God, the Most High) says in the Holy Quran that if you kill one person unjustly, it is as if you killed the whole mankind. According to the Quran, such evil doers are bound to hell fire. These people have no faith, no religion and are disbelievers in God, even though they may profess to be Jews, Christians, Hindus or Muslims. These evil doers are enemies of God and Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him). All of us, citizens and leaders alike, Muslims and non-Muslims alike, need to work hard to make the earth a peaceful and just place to live for us and our children. We must be careful and just in our reactions to this tragedy. Our tears and pain should not result into evil for evil. We must find the group responsible for these crimes and bring them to justice. But we must not stereotype or assume and ourselves become terrorists. Tim McVeigh who bombed Oklahoma City Federal Building does not represent the white race, nor does he represent Christianity. Baruch Goldstein, a medical doctor from New York, went to the Al-Aqsa Mosque a few years ago and killed several Muslims worshipping there. That doctor does not represent all the Jews. Osama Bin Laden does not represent Islam or 1 billion Muslims of the world. Goodness and evil are not the same. If we condemn terrorism, we must not ourselves stoop low to the level of terrorists. Americans of all nationalities and religions need to comfort each other, give support and pray. Let us resolve together as one nation under God to work for peace and justice for all. With deep sympathy for the victims and prayers of peace, Ishaq Zahid

147 All Muslim property has been systematically been erased by the Hindus. We were living in our community therefore we have managed to defend ourselves but those whose number in the surrounding villages was small their property was looted and they were hunted like dogs.There was and still no law enforcement agency in sight. Still the situation is tense an uneasy calm prevails. Those who saved their lives now think what will happen next. Two days ago we were surrounded by Hindu mobs armed with pipes machetes swords supported by police. When the Hindu mobs attacked thrice the police guns were only pointed at Muslims. We put a SOS for help and I believe the uneasy calm that exists is due to the international pressure. Till now no media has come to cover the plight of Muslims here. In the town of Atarsumba two of our Muslim brother of our community were dragged back into their shop locked and then burnt alive. We were so far could not even hear their screams but we did get to see the burnt and charred remains of what was their bodies in a decomposed manner more than 30 hours later. Yesterday in 4 days we got milk and water. We are fortunate that in the community we were having food to eat. Others have been less fortunate. We are divided into four community parts in four different areas each to fend for its self. We total about 20,000 in all, divided in four parts minus the women & children the population of men reduces to half or less. Smaller communities and individuals phoned for help. We were helpless. It was a situation where, either we defend ourselves and our wife and children or go on a suicide mission to rescue others. Those who fell in 5 days of violence number over 300-400 in our area alone. The situation was no different in the big cities of Ahmedabad and surat Baroda etc. Parts of Gujarat still burn as I write to you. Yet the chief Minister and the Home Minister say there is no law and order problem. There is a relaxation in curfew today for 5 hours. Curfew..., which was all along only for Muslims and not for the arsonist and murdering Hindu mobs. If things don?t change soon, we can?t envisage the outcome and consequences of the ongoing situation. Today each city and each town has divided in to two parts. The Muslim part and the Hindu part. What this will eventually do is tear the fabric of the Indian soiety; those Hindus and even friends who did this have now sowed a seed of hatred in every heart. The question of terrorism that the India talks about is this. What will they do now to the terrorist Hindus? What happened in Godhra as Muslims we condemn such act, but also on the other hand there no justification of the massacre that is being carried out by Hindu terrorists in the name of retaliation. The Government of India has so far been unsuccessful in controlling Hindu fanatic Terrorists arsonist and Murderers. Hindu terrorists has crossed all limits of human rights. Today we turn to the muslim community world wide for assistance and Dua for the the plight of Muslims in Gujarat and our town of Himmatnagar. DOES THE ACTS OF A MINORITY OF HINDUS, MEAN THAT EVRY SINGLE HINDU IS LIKE THIS????? ANSWER ME POP

148 "LOL" your so bloody clueless !!!! (and Bahamut, I.E Confused, no point talking to you, you don't even know where you stand or what you really believe, you keep bouncing around ??? Go back and read your post's you twits yur proving my point, wich is Islam is the Worst of the Worse when it comes to "Religious Extremism", and "Cultural Intolerance"! Just go back and read your own post's, how many groups of Islamic Extremist's did you just list Amaad? that is one of my probs with your faith, can you name any other religious groups around the world who study "Murder" as a way of forcing there Agenda? And i am on the side of the "Hindu's" they aren't the ones crossing Borders to blow up people! I recall "Bombay" had to change it's name to "Mumbai" in the wake of "Islamic Extremist" bombings in that city. Was India not Hindi long before, Islam invaded, does that make "Hindu's" "Freedom Fighters"? You can counter my Opinions all you want, your always wrong you dont even get my beliefs right, I said i am Non-Religious, then you say (Bahamut-Confused) I see your Slur on Islam,Christianity, and the Jewish faith, but you were in favor of Buddism, that leads me to believe you are a Buddist???????????????? Dude like the previous line i just said i was not religious???????? Neither of you a reading what i write, never said all Muslims are Terrorists. What i said was( in responce to someone else's post,"THAT I READ") "NOT" all "Muslims" are "Terrorists", But all "Terrorists" are "Muslim". With the exception of a "FEW" non "Muslim" groups around the world that is a true statement!! I just want you to realize what the rest of the "World" is thinking, Why do you think the "US" can invade "Iraq" and face no repercutions? Because the rest of the World is as sick of "Radical Islam",and the utter complacency, if not support of these "Radicals" by mainstream "Islam" as i am !! Even tiny little S.Korea can make its own cars, is there any Islamic country that can even make it's own cars? All that Oil out there, you would think one of the "Dictatorships" would make a car!! Same goes for "Aircraft/Trains/Construction Eqp",ect ect. That should tell you the state of the "Islamic World", and the "West/Rest" of the "World" cannot be blamed for "Islam's" inability to join the "Modern World". This isn't just my "Opinion" fellas, it is the vast "Majority" of anyone who is not "Islamic"!!! (P.S) Amaad, if you posted like a normal person, and made your post's a bit shorter, i might be able to go back and find the Ottoman question you want me to answer, but your post's are hard enough to read thru once, keep that in mind!!!

149 Pop u seem to have a bit of anger, I dont even know where to begain with u anymore, IM STUMPED...but i still say ur a typical racist

150 Ok, bahamut am i a racist because i have differing views than you? Or because i have said something like i hate all "Muslims" or kill all "Muslims",or all "Muslims" should be kicked out of the "West"? I dont recall saying any of those things, i think you misunderstand my frustration with the current state of "Islam" in the "World". Let me say that no matter what you think, or how my posts may sound, i do not hate "Muslims"/"Islam" at all, i use "Sarcasm" & "Humor" in my post's you may misunderstand me? Seriously in all of my Post's have i said anything that is really really bad? You may find it offensive or distastefull, but pretty much everything i say is ripped from the headlines, or is a current event. You have to admit though that the "Islamic World" is in a state of chaos right now, from "East" to "West","North" to "South","Islam" is at "War" with others and it's self. I am sorry that you feel i am a "Racist", i for one would not judge someone by what they type on a "Blog"!! Is (Never judge a book by it's cover) an "Islamic" saying?

151 I find the Western Islamic (as a whole);situation being accused and blamed for some of the shit going on. This not counting the western fools heading to the Mid-East to fight against the Americans and Brits.(broken record) BUT they lable us as a whole. I have nothing to say about the eastern side, thats pretty self-explanatory, but i still say their misguided, giving the faithful ones bad images. As for as a blog, its ones opinion, which i believe is something they believe in, other wise they wouldnt post it unless they believed in it, then i asume they where just fucking around, but when u type something theres not really emotion behind it, so i cant tell if your being SARCASTIC or not

152 Here is how i feel about the issue. Think about Germany before/during WW2 and how the Nazi Party came into power.(I am not Jewish,or comparing Islam to the Nazi's,bare with me) Regardless of how Nazi Germany came into power during the 30's,(WW1 and the ruining of its Economy from the treaty it signed ending WW1 are prime factors.)not everyone in Germany was a Nazi, but the Masses allowed an Extremeist Minority to get away with Murder, by singling out someone/something to blame their troubles on.(I.E.The Jews) There were many,many,many good Germans during that war,some even fought there own people or sabotaged their war efforts, but the vast majority of the people wether they were Nazi or not allowed horrible things to happen because they did not stand up to extremism and hatred until it nearly destroyed them. I can see similar things happening now in the Islamic World, you say Islam/Muslims are peacefull, just like the Germans the vast Majority i am sure is!!, but just like the Germans there is the Extreist Minority who is using the hatred/confusion of the West/Jews to push their agenda. And they are succeding,there have been THOUSANDS of suicide bomings in the last few years what was once seldom is now becoming commonplace. That is why i say what i say, I see Mainstream Islam losing control to Extremist Islam!! I am not angry at Islam,i fear for it, i do not want to see it almost destroyed because the Peacefull Majority of its people waited to long to silence the Extreist element,that will bring nothing but hatred violence and destruction to the Islamic World!

153 WOW POP U ARE A GOOD PERSON

154 ill have my views 2moro and boy do i have a lot of them

155 1st 1995 Bombay changed its name to Mumbai. The name Mumbai is derived from "Mumbadevi" the patron goddess of the Koli fisher folks, the earliest known inhabitants. And if you haven't noticed India has sent over people to blow themselves up at a Karachi petrol station Babu Nerim skiing resort Shalimar train 2nd i put many non islamic terrorist groups on to tell you that not all terrorist groups are muslim 3rd Tamil tigers, Kach Chai, Kain chai, Basque Freedom Fighters, The Christian martydom group, Libyan Alliance etc all use terror an=d murder to get their views across 4th im sorry for saying you were bhuddhist BUT why not swear at Bhudda, for his religon has many terrorist groups. 5th you see all this oil has made muslim leaders lazy, The Saudi Arabian monarch is about ISlamic as you are( lol) BUT the west relys on SaudiArabia nad others , without these so called 'mUslim countries' the west would be a pothole on the ground FOR evry 1$ a Saudia Arabian takes out of this counry America loses 70$

156 America was built with Saudi money, saudi oil is the lifeblood of america not all Americans may be proud of that fact but it's true.

157 I disagree with the fact that mainstream Islam is losing to extremist islam. that is total rubbish, The media makes it seem like that We all know about extremist Islam but what about mainstream Islam and its scholars and its contributions e:g:-- Jabir Ibn Haiyan died 803 Mohammad Bin Musa al-Khawarizmi died 840 Yaqub Ibn Ishaq al-Kindi 800 Thabit Ibn Qurra 836 Ali Ibn Rabban al-Tabari 838 Abu Abdullah al-Battani 858 Al-Farghani 860 Mohammad Ibn Zakariya al-Razi 864 Abu al-Nasr al-Farabi 870 Abul Hasan Ali al-Masu'di died 957 Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi 936 (see also) Abul Wafa Muhammad al-Buzjani 940 Abu Ali Hasan Ibn al-Haitham 965 Abu al-Hasan al-Mawardi 972 Abu Raihan al-Biruni 973 Ibn Sina 980 (see also) Omar al-Khayyam 1044 Abu Hamid al-Ghazali 1058 Abu Marwan Ibn Zuhr 1091 Al-Idrisi 1099 Ibn Rushd 1128 Ibn al-Baitar died 1248 Nasir al-Din al-Tusi 1201 Jalal al-Din Rumi 1207 Ibn al-Nafis 1213 Ibn Khaldun 1332 Ibn Sina - doctor of doctors El Zahrawi - father of surgery Ibn Battuta - the great traveller Zaynab bint Sulayman Fatima bint Muhammad ( Sitt al-Wuzara Zaynab bint Ahmad and tyons more but im tired now so laters

158 Pop, mate , don't worry . No matter how much the press makes it seem like, Mainstream Islam is still the majority, Extremist islam is the minority. If beslan, made you change your mind let me tell you the people in the school weren't killed by the terrorists but by the Russian troops. The people of Checnya had lived in their oil/minrals/gas rich country before in hapiness untill Czar nicholas invaded. the people of Checnya were sent into exile and forcefully deported to Siberia. 200,000 Chercnyans have died for God's sake look at all the facts.

159 Well, Pop after that post, I have nothing to say except i guess u made a good point.....

160 The Chenyans had been living in their country peacefully untill the russians invaded. ( does that make them freedom fighters)

161 It is my understanding that Muhammed was attacked in a cave by what was later told to him to be the archangel Michael. My problem with this is that this being never announced itself as being an angel or even calling itself Michael. After this encounter Muhammed's own words were, "I fear that I have been possessed." It is also stated in the Qu'ran that many jinn- Arabic for demon- were always near Muhammed. The descendents of Ishmael are the peoples of the Middle East, the laws of Moses state murder is a sin, yet the fatwah of Islam states that in order to be granted access to heaven Muslims must kill the infidels as Jihad. The definition of infidel is any non-believer. How can Islam claim any birthright from the God of Abraham - Yahwew not Allah !!! - and completely twist His commandments for global conquest? - the true intntions of Islam. Could it be that Islam is nothing more than a demonic religion bent on destroying the Sons and Daughters of Light? - just one mans opinion.

162 I feel I should back up my opinion with universally accepted imperical facts. THE QU'RAN states: "O children of Israel! Remember My Favour which I bestowed upon you and that I preferred you to Alalamin(mankind)." -Surate Al-Baqarah 2:47 "And indeed We gave the children of Israel the scripture, and the understanding of the the scripture and His laws, and the prophethood, and provided them with good things, and preferred them above the Almin(all mankind)." -Surate Al-jathiyah "And(remember) when Moses said to his people:'O my people, remember the favour of Allah to you when He made prophets among you, made you kings and gave you what He had not given to any other among the mankind. O my people" Enter the Holy Land(Palestine) which Allah has assigned to you...'" -Surate Al-Maida 5:20-21 HK 1- Mecca is the holy city of Islam, so quit trying to steal it from the Jews! 2- Muhammed is not a Jew so he could not have been eligible for prophethood! 3- Muhammed couldn't read or write his entire life - Muhammed never performed one miricle - Muhammed was nothing but a murdering, child molesting pervert, who fostered a hatred for Jews into a demon base religion! 4- The Qu'ran sanctions pillage, looting, ransom, and rape of captive women as an incentive to join in Jihad. 5- Muhammed kept 1/5 of all spoils of war for himself. 6- The Qu'ran allows a man to have up to 4 wives - at any one time. He can divorce a wife simply saying so 3 times. 7- Muhammed had as many as 25 wives. One was 6 when the married; he consumated the union when she was 9. 8- At least 27 people were murdered on Muhammed's orders. 9- Muhammed allowed temporary marriage for 3 nights, so that soldiers in the field could marry prostitutes. 10- The Qu'ran assures the Muslim the right to own slaves by purchase or as bounty of war - Muhammed had dozens. 11- Almsgiving and mercy is commended in Islam - but the beneficiaries must be Muslim only. 12- In Islam, the definition of "right" or "just" isn't fixed, but changeable by divine decree - enabling the most heinous sins & crimes to be decreed "the will of Allah". 13- The joys & glories of Islamic "paradise" are tangible & sensual & include sex with virgins & young boys. 14- As Muhammed progressed from visionary & teacher to warlord & ruler, his style & message became more depraved, violent & intolerant. It is these later "revelations" that are considered definitive by Islamic authorities when they conflict with earlier ones often cited for Western consumption. 15- The Crusades were a belated military response to 3 centuries of Muslim agression against Christian lands & peoples. No more offensive than the Invasion of Normandy. 16- Islam divides the world into the House of Islam(where Islam rules) & the House of War (where it doesn't)- the 2 are permenently at war; there may be temporary truces, but peace will only come upon the completion of global conquest. 17- When Muslims are a minority in a community, the Qu'ran permits them to adopt a peaceful attitude to deceive their neighbors, until they feel strong enough to dispense with the pretense. 18- The massacres perpetrated by Muslims in India are unparalleled in history, bigger in sheer numbers than those of the Nazis during the Holocaust. 19- Muslim persecution of Christians has caused suffering & death for millions for over 13 centuries & continues today. 20- The myth of Islam's "tolerance" of other religious minorities contradicts its teaching, history & present reality. 21- In 1993, Saudi Arabia's supreme religious authority declared that the world is flat, and that anyone who disagrees is an infidel to be punished. 22- Like Communism, Islam cannot foster prosperity, & is always reliant on plunder or unearned wealth(e.g., from oil). 23- Islam recognizes no distinction between temporal & divine authority; the only "legitimate" government is a theocracy. 24- America's "ally" Saudi Arabia remains the most intolerant Islamic regime in the world, where the practice of any religion other than Islam is as stictly prohibited as it was in Muhammed's day. I have just listed 2 dozen historical facts to define my previous opinion that Islam is a religion crafted by Satan's hand. Let me say that I am aware thre are Muslims who know it is wrong to murder innocent people for any reason. I know threr are Muslims who are tired of being in bondage & oppressed by the government's their religion spawns in their lands. I know they are tired of being murdered by their own people who tell them they are not "good Muslims". To them I say, you will not find the solution within your religion nor will you find salvation within it, I am not the only one who can explain the reasons for these things. If the Father calls to you and brings you from Islam then you may have the opportunity to be saved and to know the truth. Others have been called, and you may also be called away to know the truth. However, it is not my pupose to convert anyone from their present religion. It is my pupose to share the TRUTH.

163 Ok,back from vacation!! Good post's!! will respond tommorow!! Well said Jeff, i have my own views on religion, will share them in the next post. And "Amaad", as i recall "Chechnia" was/ has been part of the "USSR/Russia" for quite some time, it was peacefull until the "Islamic Minority" decided they wanted to make another "Islamic Country", and thus created the current problem. As for blaming the "Russian Soldiers" in "Beslan" for killing the children there,that is so ludicrous,ask yourself this if "Islamic Fundamentalists" did not take over the school and make "Women&Children" strip naked and not feed them for days, as well as rigging the school full of explosive devices, if they did not do any of that would the Russian Soldiers have needed to go in after them? Put blame where the blame lies!! "BTW" i recall the "Beslan" "Terrorists" killed people at/in the school long before any "Russian" troops even arrived at the school, was that the "Russian Troops" fault as well? I just dont understand how you can blame the "Russians", for the evils of "Islamic Fundamentalism" ?? Ok more tommorow, Chow !!!

164 Is the way islamic followers "push" their religion more objectionable than the way christians pushed christianity during the crusades??? Proud to be and will remain an agnostic. No one fights me about it, I'm just stuck in the middle; however it's amusing to watch all the "believers" duking it out. agie

165 COOL SITE MGBADA AND HI TO GUEST.OBINNA

166 Im bak and Jeff u r ma number one target

167 Jeff ure a liar UVE Just gone and made a load of bullshit up i will answer all your lies when i make sure u r still here

168 JEFF WOT A FRICKIN SHITSTIRRER U ARE IF URE GONNA WRITE LIES ON THIS BLOG JUST F*** OFF IF URE GONNA STAY HERE AND GIVE ME REASONABLE, PEACEFULL, TRUTHFULL DEBATES I WILL ANSWER THEM TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE ;-) poP HOPE U HAD A GOOD TIME ON VACATION dont have time to read your reply since i wrote on this blog three months ago u havent answered ma question give me a website that shows Muslims celebrating 9/11 AND PLEEEZ read my reply on the OTtomans it will seriosly help u ( and i spent so long resarching it) ILL READ THE CHECNYA THING ON TEUSDAY ( MAYBE MONDAY)

169 Jeff and Pop what is the meaning of JIHAD

170 U guys after researching and pouring over books, documents, websites, and more books I have discovered the beggining of the Lies and shits of JEFF. A an Anti-islamic website ( i won't rell you the website unless u request nicely). The website is a miltant Hinduism web. They tell Hindus to kill lll Muslims. ( wot the fuck for ) "Hinduize politics and militarize Hindus! - Veer Savarkar CHOOSE DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR! IF YOU ARE A HINDU, THERE IS NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT IN THIS WORLD THAN YOUR MOTHER LAND - BHARAT! FIGHT IF YOU MUST! DIE IF YOU MUST! NO HINDU CAN ASK FOR A BETTER DEATH THAN DEFENDING THEIR MAATRU BHOOMI (Mother Land). Thats what they fucking wrote and u tell me that the main source of terrorism and lies is Islam. I could give u fricking billions of other webs. these guys can't find anything wrong with Islam ( not its followers ) so they make up false verses of the Quran, false saying of the pophet and downright blatant lies AND dumb ass licking people like JEFf ( not POP because he uses common sense)belive them. These guys want a new flag of India, they want it to be an orange isocles triangle, in the centre a yellow nazi flag decorated by red roses. And for some reosan they want to have the a sacaren knife on ( maybe its one of the five Ks just below the Nazi sign. FRICKINg HELL POP U ARE A DUMB SHIT. I thought that no one would post shit on this blog and eveydayfor the past fucking weeks ive been checking to see if POP had given me an answer and now he has which i will answew FUCK YOU JEFF _-_-_-_-_-_- I HATE JEFF SO MUCH

171 "LOL" "A-MAAD-MAN" I have answered your questions,you just have not understood or read my responce correctly!! what is your point about the "Hindu's", they may be nuts(just ask Ghandi's family about them) but like you said they are defending their country from "Invaders-Islam", just like every other country that is at "War" with "Islam". Cant recall hearing about any "Hindus" killing "Muslims" all over the World like Muslims are doing to everyone else? Before you type another word about anything, just take a "World" map, look at every single border country, that borders the "Islamic World"/"Islamic Countries", tell me if you can see one point on that map where Islam is not Aggresively trying to expand its influence thru violence. after you see that bare in mind that "Islam/Muslims" are also attacking countries that do not even border its sphere of influence. "AGAIN I ASK, WHAT IS YOUR QUESTION/QUESTIONS"? As i have said in previous post's i thought i answered your questions, if you will re-read my post's maybe i have,if not ask them again.On the other hand you never answer mine,go back look at all the points/questions you ignore,lol, why,because i am right?(Read about Beslan yet?) TY,for proving my "Islam" is intolerant view with your last post, how "Islamic" of you to decend into rage and profanity when you hear someone talking badly about "Islam", you are such a fool a puppet being pulled by strings. who ever jeff was said that just to piss you off(Mission Accomplished).And why would you Hate someone for saying something you know to be false? What would "Allah" say tisk tisk. Dont call me the "Dumbshit", i am not the one who lives his life because of what someone else,(A human-being taught you all you know of religion) told me is true. Seeing is believing,explain "Dinosaurs" for me "A-MAAD-MAN"? were they "Gods" play-toys when he was growing up? It's "Religious" based "Morons" like you who make this Planet "HELL on Earth"!!!!! "JIHAD"-is an "Arabic" word that means "striving in the way of God." This striving can take a number of forms, including the daily inner struggle to be a better person. However, jihad is often used to refer to an armed struggle fought in defense of "Islam".

172 Good posts will answer when I have more time BUT MY QUESTION WAS CAN YOU GIVE ME A WEBSITE THAT SHOWS 'MUSLIMS' CELEBRATING 9/11 ( I'VE ASKED YOU THIS QUESTION FOR THE PAST FEW MONTHS)

173 Hinduism is an excellent religon. I have many Hindu freinds. BUT THESE GUYS WANT TO TAKE OVERTAKE THE MUSLIM/CHRISTIAN WORLD AND forcibly convert them to hinduism. Shoul we hate all Hindiusm for this. NO. ALl these guys belive in is HATE, nothing like the true peacefull hinduism i know.

174 Thse are some palces where Hindus have killed Mulims for no good reason: 1.KASHMIR 2.PAKISTAN 3.INDIA (GUJARAT) 4.SRI lANKA 5.TIBET 4.NEPAL

175 Muslim Countries that are not trying to expand their borders/influence through violence: 1. Bahrain 2. Cameroon 3. Central African Republic 4. Chad 5. Egypt 6. Ethiopia 7. Gambia 8. Guinea 9. Guinea Bassou 10. Afghanistan 11. Indonesia 12. Iraq 13. Ivory Coast 14. Jordan 15. Kuwait 16. Malaysia 17. Maldive Islands 18. Mauritiana 19. Niger 20. Nigeria 21. Qatar 22. Saudi Arabia 23. Senegal 24. Sierra Leone 25. South Yemen 26. tANZANIA 27. Togo 28. Tanzania 29. UAE 30. vOLTA 31. YEMEN

176 Lets get to the point POP I am a muslim, I my not be the best and I have done very bad things. So am I a terrorist for being called a muslim ?????????????????????????????????????????????????

177 I've never seen Amaad this angry. Amaad don't let em bait you to hate. Calm cool and no need to answer to those who don't listen anyway. Amaad is a Mulsim and as far as I can tell over the last year NOT A TERRORIST so how does insulting him help? Same to you Amaad don' get trolled. It't fine for Jeff to express his doubts about Isalm and his reasons. It's also fine for Ammaad to express his faith. I get angry too and say things I don't really mean. Amaad's faith is being hijacked by net cases and turned to hate. don't push him the same direction. Muslims going against terrorists are the best hope, with our help, of destroying those who kill in the name of God.

178 Wow howie u have seriusly helped me. I am sorry that i thought in hate. Howie you are a really good person. God bless you.

179 jeff you can have a your beliefs and views, Why should I try to chnge your views when you probably won't listen.

180 fuck israel, fuck zoinists, fuck ellie hobayka, fuck bashit jmayel, fuck sharon, fuck samir jeajea, fuck lebanese forces and fuck every one hate islam, all of u are mother fuckers and son of bitches , we will fuck u all inshallah, just wait we will use axes in killing u all, put this in ur sisters' asses 8=================D in israel state

181 Cobra of Palestine you are a hater. you are blinded by your hate, it prevents you from seeing clearly. All YOU CAN SEE CLEARLY IS YOUR OWN BIG-HEADED EGO. Yes, what the Zionists are doing is wrong but you should judge each Zionist seperately. you should use dbetae and the power of the brain (not the sword/bombs)to get your views across. But judging by your post, you probably don't have a brain. :-) MUSLIMS-100% AGAINST TERRROISM- 100% AGAINST ZIONISM-

182 COBRA OF PALESTINE IS MORE LIKE THE WORM OF MY BACK GARDEN

183 http://www.network54.com/Forum/446595

184 COBRA OF PALESTINE IS MORE LIKE THE PENIS UNDER MY WAISTLINE

185 seriuosly though, pop....u spread lies and hate and this is not what islam stands for. if u want, we can talk over our views PERSONALLY. i have sent u an email with my address. please respond if you can come over to my abode so we can talk FACE TO FACE.

186 FUCK U AMAAD. ure seriously the gayest faggot ever to walk on this earth. u invite other ppl u dont even know to ure house? WTF???? and u call me "the penis under your waistline"????? WTF???????/ u r seroiusly gay and i hope ure "ALLAH" punishes u for ure sanctionism.

187 sandro712 that is not me I don't know who is doing this If i was Allah would punish me

188 not u whose what? being rude to everybody for no reason??? o ya then who is it? did u invite one of ure friends to ure house or something and they just got on and started typing rude shit???

189 ok amaad.....u want to know the truth there is no website documentation of muslims celebrating 9/11 i just made that up....... FINALLY GOT THAT OFF MY CHEST AFTER ALL THOSE MONTHS.....sry for lying before amaad.....muslims are truly the superior religion and im sry i did not see that before....all of u believe in love and peace and i think that u have persuaded me to convert to islam thank you amaad, u are truly a good person and may Allah (SWT) reward u for ure righteous doings.

190 um Cobra, what is your problem. I haven't sent any of the messages that are gay and queer and Pop, i might be mistaken BUT IS THAT YOU. WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON!!!???

191 ohhh i see whats going on my friend got on and hacked some files from me..never hanging out with him again...ne way back to REAL topic at hand....COBRA URE A LOSER! stop cussing at me u poobrain..ure such a doofus butthole.....if u want tho, i am gay, so u can just come over to my house and we can do stuff...sexually of course i love u cobra and im sry i thot in hate before.....lets have sex, now...

192 ohhhhh i see whats going on.... my loser friend came over to my house to work on a project and he hacked some files on my compuetr...omg never hanging out with him again ok back to the point of ure gayness cobra..stop calling me gay that was my friend ne way... and pop ure a loser by the way plz get some friends

193 Um who the fuck are you, I am not gay. I bet the 'other' Amaad is one of those geeks with big glasses that act all tough behind the computer but when you see them face -to-face they are just pussies cowering behind thir own shadow. Cobra i think of you as a person not a sexgod, I may not have the same views on Palestine as you but I respect your views and what ever adress the Fucking gay amaad has sent is total bullshit. Pop is not a loser, the fucking gay Amaad is just deluded. He needs to get a life insted of soending all day behind a computer looking up gayhorse porn. The nearest the fucking gay Amaad will get to a pussy is a cat. DICKHEAD 8========D shove that up your mums motherfucking arse coz thats the only girl thats gonna let you suck her tits. Your mum is an ugly whore. Your a two faced, four eyed, confounded, tossing over a pen, gay wanking muther fucker.

194 One more think u fucking faggot 'other' Amaad i forgot to mention: ure a fucking cocksucking bitch who is extremely gay...ure a fucking bitch and cobra, same to u asshole...that was the 'other' Amaad sending u shit, the amaad that i used to trust but used his power to fucking send u guys shit 'other' amaad, u need to get a fucking life...u have no life...omg if u stop sending shitty shit over the computer, i will hang out with you sometimes...goddamit i hate u tho, but we can still hang out pop, ure not a loser, im sry, but u are very wrong in ure views of foreign policy and political issues, thank you for converting to islam tho, may god bless your soul. by the way, i have to be honest, i am NOT a homosexual but i am indeed bisexual. i feel that i must be frank because the 'other' amaad is ruining my rep...im a popular person and i wish to be treated that way 'other' amaad, please stop or i will shove a shovel up ure mothers arse, the same woman i fucked last night HARD! BITCH...she was oozing sperm out of her pussy...o yaaaa by the way, 'other' amaad, u r a doofus pencil pusher, and cobra, keep ure fucking views to ureself fag, and pop, change ure views about ALLAH (SWT) plz

195 THE REAL AMAAD plz calm down...may God punish whoever is overthrowing u and ure name, but please, calm down immediately, or u will, God forbid, go to jahannam. please THE REAL AMAAD, if u need to take a walk to calm down, please do so..nobody has time to read u insulting other people over the internet. dont let them bait u to hate amaad, if u ask me, ure the one with no life for responding to him...just calm down and ignore THE REAL AMAAD, it will blow over soon enough

196 sorry howie ma bad. I shall ignore the fake Amaad. I have better things to do.

197 sorry howie ma bad. I shall ignore the fake Amaad. I have better things to do.

198 sorry again howie and anybody else keeping up with this blog...i made a mistake and im sry for that. i have a life howie...so stfu and dont insult me like that plz..thx pop im still waiting for a REAL answer to if muslims really celebrated 9/11...or r u just a half baked liar? cobra, im not even going to talk to u...i shall ignore u based on the advice given to me from howie...thx again howie, but i do have a life. i help my parents around the house, watch TV, play videogames, and keep up with this blog. thats a better life than u will ever have. once again, im sry the fake amaad, i was not thinking straight, and u were right, and i was wrong now that i think deeply about it. thx for last night again. once more, i will apologize for my bisexuality and i hope that does not interfere with our relationship pop.

199 hey Amaad no point posting anything anymore the post has gone to the noobs !!! So i guess this is it for this post, for me at least. When someone else starts talking for me and using my name, then it is time to move on. See ya all around (The Real Pop)

200 Amaad and Pop: just saw you comments roll by and Amaad no need to be sorry to me you are quite excused. I see there is some spoofers in here. Pop and Amaad can email me the spoofs that are in their names and I'll fix it when I have time or change threads if you like you are both welcome to post here and this thread has been your home for some time. Pop and Amaad the real ones get together and let me know what you want.

201 Amaad and Pop, I just saw that some spoofers are giving you guys some trouble. I see comments roll by but don't check em beacuse I see you guys all the time. If you guys like get together and identify the spoofs I'll take care of it. Change threads or I'll fix the spoofs for you when I get time. this thread has been you guys place for a bit so I'll help you what I can. The real Amaad and Pop are welcome any time. Sith Paduan beotch to the Macktastic Rusty Wicked.

202 Uh some comment trouble on the server double post

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1 Hmmm...

2 She'll change her mind when she realizes the taxes go up. Either that or daddy will bitch slap her.

1 Asian Athlete? Who says? Tiger is AMERICAN - part black, part asian. His father, like many others during the Vietnam war, met and married a Japanese Woman and out of the two came Tiger - actually Eldridge Woods. His father is an American. His mother is now an American. He is an American - not an Asian. He also lives in Orlands Florida where he has his own house, etc. Asian? Who the hell would call Tiger Asian?? FT!

2 Ok now ya done gone and upset me again.. hahaa Wood's Asian... I think NOT!!!! Last info gram I heard about Tiger Woods was from the African American sector Letting EVERYONE know how proud they were of "THIER BOY" for his achievements for the BROTHERHOOD... And you Don't even want to start me on that subject!!! I am still around dropping in from time to time to catch up on the NEWS.... And what the hell is TPS Reports.... Andrea

3 Tiger is half asian/half black. It's actually a reference to a King of the Hill episode.

4 Time for a few facts, folks: Tiger's first name is Eldrick ( http://www.tigerwoods.com/aboutme/bio.sps?sid=825&lid=1&aid=0 ) His mother, Kultida (Tida for short) is Thai, and pure Thai as far as anyone knows. That alone makes Tiger 50% Asian for demographic purposes. His father, Earl, is like many Americans, descended from a mix of nationalities, including Irish, Scot, Native American, African American and Jamaican. Tiger and his new bride Elin were introduced by Swedish golfer Jesper Parnevik, for whom Elin was an au pair (live-in babysitter). The Parneviks have often stated dismay at the attention given Tiger and Elin's relationship. Would anyone be gabbing if Tiger were David Duval or Justin Leonard or Sergio Garcia? As to the support of Tiger by the African American community, always remember that, purely because of his skin color, Tiger would not be allowed to play some courses where his Thai cousins would be welcome because they didn't look "black." Is his African heritage important to him? Sure. Aren't your ancestors important to you?

5 Can I just add that you all are taking this way too seriously. Bottom line: funny.

6 Bottom line: the links to the model are blocked by my work's security filters. And the chick on the book cover does nothing for me, she looks like a refugee from the Lifetime network -- more like what women THINK men think is sexy rather than what we actually do.

7 She's a model who's mother was gunned down last year in Sweden. Tiger considers himself African American, I guess. I have a six foot framed photo right in front of me along with his signature. My friend came back from Vietnam with a Thai wife and Tiger couldn't play some places not because his mother was Thai but because his father was black and he's black. Which is also why he works so much with black kids in the United States. His foundations cover Japanese and English - Japan and the United States. I don't know about the Thai bit since he has his own bio and I happen to get newsletters from him on a regular basis and watch him weekly, but I imagine his father met his mother in Japan at the base and brought her home when he came home. If you see his Dad, he is a big, heavyset Black guy. Sometimes when you say it's a joke, it's not a joke because the last thing that Tiger is.....is Asian. ~C

8 Yeah, but is she hot? I mean, "Swedish Supermodel" says hot to me, but since I can't get to the DAMNED LINK! And I dare say that she's less concerned with his ethnicity than she is with his talent with his putter.

9 You are probably right, Brian. It's the person that counts, not his ethnicity. You wanted to know if she was hot? Yeah, she is very much so. If you ever watch golf on weekends when Tiger plays, you'll see shots of her because she's always there and they always put the camera on her. They will make a very handsome couple. She is quite beautiful. putter, huh? ~C

10 Racism???? is that popular here too apart from the blind belief of the Neocons!!!!!!

11 Cindy, I think you take my comments too seriously. I was being silly. I really am happy for him.

12 By the way, Rusty — were you aware that Elin has a twin sister? Who also happens to be single? (Like such things matter to a 48-year-old married father of five)

13 Brian, I only get worked up when something is stupid. You should know me better than that by now. When it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, acts like a duck, then you know it's a duck. When someone tries to hard to make a joke, it's not a joke. Best bet is to leave it alone. ~Cindy

14 Asian man? black Man? He's a green man. Ever heard of a blonde supermodel marrying a poor asian man or poor black man. It's the person that counts all right. The person that counts the green. I just told my friend Charlie: Hey Charlie they're calling Tiger Woods asian on the internet. Charlie's comment: he must be playing poorly. I wish them both happiness. but stay real.

15 To Cindy (firstbrokenangel): I have no idea where you got the idea about Elin's mother being gunned down. She's actually a cabinetmember in the swedish government. And I really don't know about Supermodel either, she's done som swimsuit jobs, but I wouldn't call her a Supermodel. /Jonas

16 Andrea <---- is NOT racist..... She hates everybody.... hahahaha Oh and while I am here again....lol I will add I look just like the woman in the photograph..... LMAO My body is so ugly I have to take a shower in the dark.... And I am so broke I can't even buy my own mothers love.... Thank Gawd I have an education... lol

17 Honestly, I've read some of that book and it should be called how to predate on doltish white women. Or how to 5 F white women, of course that would make most people repulsed but never judge this book on its cover, read it to get really sick. Image a book written on "how to 5 F any asian female." You'd see everyone stand up and howl about it being a sick, sexist and racist manifesto.

18 Fortunately young Mr. Woods was raised in an atmosphereunlike that of the hypersensitive people commenting here, the colorblind atmosphere of those who bet their lives on their comrades. All I know is the rough jokes among the men I served with in a rifle platoon would make most of the commenters here retreat with the vapors. I know something else, though, the two good looking and superbly healthy couple under discussion will make some damned good lookin' kids.

19 knob white people

1 Butt ugly... Heh heh. I get it. Butt ugly. Stop you make me laugh too hard.

2 uglier than a dime's worth of dog meat.

3 One in ten will get the butt of the 'butt' reference! Kudos.

4 Her eyes are set too close together, like pig eyes.

5 Has Ace seen this yet? Yeah, but no one was looking at her eyes.......

6 The peanut gallery weighs in. Some of these comments are quite amusing. My favorite so far: Jerry: "She had manface, the face of a man." Elaine: "Would you prefer it if she had no face?"

7 LOL! I said this a couple weeks ago when WAPO did the article. Doesnt it scare you Rusty when I start agreeing with you so damned much?

8 Yep, it's why she relied on her butt so much....

9 I'm with Jerry Lee Lewis on this one: Pussy is pussy.

10 I was getting them anyway. I did that post on cutler back when the Washington Post article came out. Today it was getting a ton of google hits for "Jessica Cutler" and such, so I just gave the masses what they wanted. You know me, I aim to please.

11 Uh..did you post the same "don't they have airbrushes" comment EVERYWHERE you could? Exactly what is your agenda against Miss Cutler? I know you and Michele Malkin are jealous, but come on!

12 it will be alright even though you are butt ugly im am so pretty even though my eye is swole so just keep your head up and you will make it

13 She looks weird. Like she's Chinese or something. Short girls are ugly.

14 She's half korean.

15 Looks like Bjork's twin sister.

16 Not sure what the people calling Miss Cutler ugly are trying to prove. No doubt they think Michelle Pfeiffer looks like a dog. I think the lady looks pretty hot. Not sure I'd want to spend time with someone that hedonistic and shallow, though. Well, maybe a little while.

1 Gah . . . gah . . . gah . . . gah . . . gah . . . [repeat ad infinitum, with jaw appropriately slackened]

2 Drool

3 That's why Mondale lost.

4 And notice she has a martini in her hand, not some liberal modern wannabe cocktail. I bet her husband drinks his single malt neat.

5 Nice

6 Men! You getting to be a dirty old man, too, Rusty? :-)

7 Something about polka dots . . . makes me want to nuzzle her nozzle

8 What the heck, if voting is a popularity contest, why pretend - or do we all admire her policy?

9 Santa Maria !!!

10 Too damned skinny.

11 Some of us heartily approve of her choice of beverage ...

12 Dean, What are you, gay?!?!

13 Hell, even the Republican women who aren't sexy are at the very least CLASSY -- look at Nancy Reagan, or either of the Bush wives.

14 Some of us heartily approve of her choice of beverage ... I hope you don't think I was disparaging her choice. While I don't like martinis, I respect them. Hell, I'm told I make a damned good one, especially dirty ones. The point is, it's a REAL drink, like Scotch or beer.

1 Thanks Rusty - a son and a promotion to Imperial Undersecretary all in the same weekend. Wowser. Now I have to get the shredder working again.

1 Fay Wray was Canadian. Since you established that all Canadians were metrosexual earlier, I am left to assume that youm like John Kerry, may be all the way gay.

2 Gay? Maybe. But not ALL the way. Besides, there's good gay and bad gay. This is clearly the latter.

3 LOL. So you think it is the latter RS? That clinches it! You ARE all the way, John Edwards gay. As for me, I would have gone with the FORMER. It's good gay in the sense that lipstick lesbians can be good gay.

4 Ouch...I meant former!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stupid freudian slips.

1 retarded democrats... why support the killing of unborn taxpayers? who's going to afford your lazy ass down the line?

1 You are Homophobic to say the least. In the United States of America there is a clear protection that religion and state (politics) do not mix. It very much means that Americans have the freedom to believe and live by any religion they wish. It also protects people from religious doctrine if they don't choose to believe in it. When the United States tells gay couples they cannot be legally married it is based on a religious doctrine and by enforcing it, the United Stated commits Religious tyranny on a weaker, smaller group of Americans. This is illegal. Religion and a belief of a single God is a philosophy and a theory, it has never been proven. It was devised to keep civilization in check by instilling fear of eternal reprimand and punishment if one was to sway from a certain doctrine of order. The bible is very sexist and antiwomen and anyone who actually read it would see that. I have read it numerous times and I agree with many scholars that there are many contradictions in it. As someone said to me once, "the bible has caused more wars, more grief, more distruction, more pain, more hatred and more chaos in the world than anything else." If this life is the only one anyone will every have, then what a great injustice is it to write laws that take away freedoms from some and give it to others especially, in the most important area in a persons life, marriage. People donÂ’t take insults or in that area very well. Would you? I love the way the conservative Republicans say liberals to the left> tolerate the gay lifestyle. Give me a break. One day Americans won't tolerate double standards. Just as slavery was abolished, so will the government and state oppressions of Americans who simply fall in love and choose to grow old with another adult who happens to wear the same exact sex organs. Yikes!! What a concept. I have always found it amazing that a woman who is deathly afraid of snakes could ever lay naked with a man with an erect projectile. or a "snake in the grass" as I call it. More power to them. I'll stick to being Spiritual over religious and I'll stick to chasing after butterflies. One day America will be great again. She will find her way back. She will not spend ALL of our money playing with remote control cars on mars or trying to see if two snowflakes are alike. She will stop spinning around with her huge head and will come back down to earth and will take care of her own first. One day bigotry of any kind will not be tolerated. One day the gay community will have the greatest Constitutional scholars and the smartest lawyers of all time to defend them and sue the United States government. We will have all these freedoms given to us and will be very wealthy Americans for our struggles. We will be legally married one day IN THIS COUNTRY and people will have to look the other way or move out if they dot like it. ALL AMERICANS will be TREATED EQUAL AND HAVE THE SAME FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS , no two ways about it. The bible and religiously brainwashed people can stay in the closet where they belong. The world will be a more peaceful place after that. Thank you and good day.

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1 Now when I fast-forward through her scenes it'll be for more than the fact that she couldn't act her way out of a wet paper bag. I mean, she's a really, REALLY horrible actress. Just awful. [shudders] I hope Lucas dies a painful death. Or at least stops directing movies. Or casting them. Or writing scripts for them. Or, really, having anything to do with them outside of funding special effects projects. To sum up: Natalie Portman - wooden, inconvincing, probably a retard. George Lucas - gets his marching orders from Satan.

2 yeh i agree lucas = lucifer

3 the star wars episodes are actually really cool....and natalie portman is a good acteress...if you DONT think so you have a horrible sence of taste....... and if you really dont like sci-fi then you just can leave others like it and SHUT UP!!!!

1 He's very cute. I wish him a long life, filled with G-d's blessings! Congratulations!

2 He's not cute, he's all squashy-looking. All newborns look like Winston Churchill. Give him a week or two, and then he'll start being cute. Don't tell Mrs. Rusty I said that!

3 To God be the glory! Congrats. And he is cute too.

4 Congratulations on your latest release! Looks like all the bugs were worked out, as well. Babies. *squishy mom-face* *sigh*

5 VEry big congrats to all. It looks like he's thinking about his new blog...

6 Yay! Congrats to all - even you but especially to those who did the *real* work - and best wishes for the future.

7 Thanks all!!

8 Congratulations! I think the little bag of drool is adorable.

9 Congratulations!

10 Congratulations! Yup, cute baby. Ours is due in May, I hope you don't mind if I need to trade war stories with you!

11 Many congratulations. As a man who also has a little one around the house, watch out for stinky diapers and spraying urine. Cheers to you and Mrs.

12 Rusty, Got your email, accidentally deleted it. This will be our first. Try the new address I just used, I get email more easily there.

13 Oh, and you do realize, as much as I like you, if I have a daughter, your son (or any other little sack of hormones) ain't going near her till she's 30.

14 Congrats on the latest upgrade! (Oh, and on the new site too.) Changing diapers is FUN!

15 Well done! Bravo! Here's to doing it without any patches or upgrades! Nice work on the site! I am quite happy to have helped you do nothing so successfully. And an extra big huzzah to she-who-carried-the-hatchling!

16 I'm so happy for you and the world. Tell Mrs. Rusty: Good Job Lady! Thanks for giving me this huge smile. God bless us, every one.

17 Well done and congratulations... but remember Design and Development are the easy parts. Any software pro will tell you that User Acceptance Testing and Deployment are where it gets difficult.

18 So that's what Jawas look like. Congratulations!

19 Congrats, Rusty. No mere beta release, either!

20 congratulations rusty

21 Rusty: My congratulations as well. I heard the other day that having a child improves everything you do, so I guess that amounts to an upgrade for you, to Rusty version 2.1.

22 Congratulations on an adorable little Jawa. Soon enough he'll be pullin' apart errant R2 units. God bless you.