June 21, 2005

Are Political Orientations Genetically Transmitted?

A recent article in the American Political Science Review (APSR) by John R. Alford, Carolyn L. Funk, and John R. Hibbing claims that political orientation is, to some extent, genetic. The New York Times reviews the APSR piece here. A number of bloggers are also commenting on the piece, however, what they respond to is not the APSR article, but the New York Times review of the article. Since I am a subscriber to the APSR (yes, I know, hard to believe) I thought it might be worth something to throw in my two cents. After all, I seem to be the only blogger who's actually read the study (although I can't say this definitively, e-mail me or send a trackback if you also have read it).

I normally avoid this kind of discussion at this blog, but the topic was just so compelling.

The purpose of the article is summed up by the authors:

"In this article, we combine relevant findings in behavioral genetics with our own analysis of data on a large sample of twins to test the hypothesis that, contrary to the assumptions embedded in political science research, political attitudes have genetic as well as environmental causes."

The literature review for the piece sums up what all political scientists already know, namely that:

"Conspicuously absent is consideration of the possibility that certain attitudes and behaviors may be at least partially attributable to genetic factors."
The worry from many quarters from this type of research would be that to say genetics has something to do with political leanings would be deterministic. This troubles our Western sensibilities which are based upon the assumption that choice is an inherent attribute of humanity. However, the authors caution against reading determinism into genetic analysis:
Still, the connection is rarely so simple that a given genetic allele can be seen as causing a certain behavior. More typically, findings in modern behavioral genetics reveal the effect of genes to be interactive rather than direct, let alone determinative.
In other words, genetic predispositions are by no means deterministic. Genetics influences the way we think about the world, but does not determine our outlooks. As the authors summarize the argument:
The issue is not nature versus nurture but the manner in which nature interacts with nurture.
Next the authors move on to methodology. Julian Sanchez, who I presume has not read the actual research study, critiques it this way:
Count me a little skeptical: For one, unless these are studies on twins raised apart, you need to account for the fact that being raised as someone's identical twin is a difference in family environment that could conceivably shape one's attitudes in various subtle ways.
Very good criticism. However, the authors anticipate this objection and respond in kind:
Other evidence against the exclusive environmental argument is that the empirical results suggest MZ twins reared together are often less likely to share behavioral traits with their twins than are MZ twins reared apart, presumably because of extra efforts to establish distinct identities when the twins live together. In addition, as adult MZ [identical] twins living apart age, they tend to become more, not less, similar (Bouchard and McGue 2003), a finding that is difficult to reconcile with the belief that only the environment matters.
Further, since most parents are not aware whether their twins are identical or fraternal (controlling for sex, of course) then if MZ twins are closer politcally than DZ [fraternal] twins, genetics might be responsible.

The authors do not argue that genetics makes one a Republican or Democrat. Indeed, people like me who are Libertarian with Republican leanings may not fit at all into the study if such were the assertion. Rather, they base the study on the notion that certain character traits are to some extent inherited. Character traits such as openness in turn are translated into social attitudes. These social attitudes are then transformed, to some extent, into political attitudes and later into political behavior. The genetic component, they predict, should be an important factor but certainly not the only one or even the most important one.

The image below is Table 1 of the study (I have the study in both .PDF and .html versions). Click on the image for a larger version. The variables are controlled for sex since obviously fraternal twins sometimes are of opposite sex.

As you can see, genetics seems to account for a high of percentage of the correlations between twins.

One very interesting piece of information is the difference in correlation between Republicans and Democrats among fraternal and identical twins. While identical twins opinions about Republicans and Democrats is almost precisely the same (.48 correlation for Republicans .47 correlation for Democrats), the same does not hold true for fraternal twins (.30 correlation for Republicans and .34 correlation for Democrats). Using the authors' methodology, inherited traits account for a whopping .36 for attitudes people have of Republicans, while only .26 for attitudes people have of Democrats!

Why genetics would affect attitudes people have of Republicans more than Democrats beats me. Such inconsistencies obviously must be either explained or are evidence of a major flaw in the study.

Further, the data pokes serious holes at the author's underlying theory. The theory, you will recall, is based on the notion that certain personality traits, such as openness, would eventually translate into political attitudes. However, when one looks at the data one immediately notices the apparent random nature of the distribution of attitude correlation.

Why, for instance, would genetics account for a large portion of people's attitudes towards property taxes but not for divorce or gay marriage?? What inherited attitude would have anything to do with mundane taxation issues, yet not account nearly as much for issues of serious social change?

The authors further analyze genetic influences by coding each response as either "conservative", "neutral", or "liberal". An addidive scale is created using the 28 questions on the survey. The higher the score the more conservative, and vice versa. Table 2 below is obtained by running a standard Pearson's correlation coefficient. Click on the image for a larger view.

The above Table indicates that heredity seems to account for correlations on the constructed conservatism scale far more than the enviroment. What is even more shocking is that heredity seems to be even more important in explaining variation than educational attainment or party identification!

A not-so-surprising finding is the opinionation variable. Opinionation was measured by how often a respondent chose either the liberal or conservative response--in other words, opinionated people rarely are 'neutral' on these types of questions. Heredity seems to explain why some people are far more opinionated than others!

Another not-so-surprising finding is that party identification cannot be explained by the genes, scoring the lowest (.14) correlation.

One other observation made by Julian Sanchez is also explained by Table 2. Speaking of the NY Times article which he read, Sanchez notes:

The article closes with the chilling observation that, since people tend to seek out ideologically congenial mates, genetic concentration of this sort may well be increasing. Yep, the zealots you see on the party convention floors? They're breeding.
And that is, indeed, the inference the NY Times makes from the second set of numbers in the above Table. However, that is not exactly what the table means.

Using identical surveys filled out by a subset of the twins' parents, they attempt to control for 'assortive mating'. Assortive mating happens when you marry some one with similar political views. For instance, Frank J. married Sarah K. not only because she's cute and is great at cleaning showers, but because of similar beliefs about gun control. Same goes for Mike Williams and her Sporkness.

Unfortunately for the New York Times, though, the authors do not conclude that assortive mating is having a huge impact (I'll return to this later). They describe the affect as 'moderate'. So, no mutant uber-consrvatives walking the moonless nights seeking liberal brain should be expected in the near future.

However, the socialization effect + the genetic affect does lead to a cumulatively important influence. But if one were to seperate future IMAO twins at birth and raised by adoptive parents, there might be some reason to hope they may turn out semi-normal!

Table 3 below uses data from twin studies in Australia to see how valid the results would hold across cultures. Click on the image for a closer view.

While most of the items show similar patterns of correlation between U.S. and Australian twins, two do not. Immigration produces a very large correlation in U.S. twins but a rather weak one (non-white immigration) among Australians. The same is true of the socialism variable.

If genetics predisposed one to political attitudes how can that be explained?

Conclusion:

The article is a seminal one in that it, for the first time, raises the possibility of exploring genetic reasons for political attitudes and behaviors. For years, political scientists have speculated that genetics played a component in political behavior. However, such conversations were often held behind closed doors and never in a peer reviewed journal--especially the flagship journal of the field.

Why? You recall the outcry against Larry Summers, the President of Harvard University, when he merely brought up the subject that genetics may partially explain why there are less women in the hard sciences. The world of political science is far more politically correct and twice as quick to condemn any notion of genetics in slippery-slope arguments that inevetably lead to holocaust comparisons.

Trust me, within the week we will see a number of political scientists compare this research to Spencer's Social Darwinism, reinforcing dominate patriarchal paradigms, eugenics, and as the kind of thinking that led to the holocaust. Yes, it is that bad.

For instance, in the work's concluding remarks, the authors use several hypotheticals for explaining how genetics can influence political opinions by operating at the 'gut level'. Notice how they charaterize 'conservative' gut reactions in negative terms, but 'liberal' gut reactions in positive terms:

One is characterized by a relatively strong suspicion of out-groups (e.g., immigrants), a yearning for in-group unity and strong leadership, especially if there is an out-group threat (“Do not question the President while we are at war with terrorists”), a desire for clear, unbending moral and behavioral codes (strict constructionists), a fondness for swift and severe punishment for violations of this code (the death penalty), a fondness for systematization (procedural due process), a willingness to tolerate inequality (opposition to redistributive policies), and an inherently pessimistic view of human nature (life is “nasty, brutish, and short”).

The other phenotype is characterized by relatively tolerant attitudes toward out-groups, a desire to take a more context-dependent rather than rule-based approach to proper behavior (substantive due process), an inherently optimistic view of human nature (people should be given the benefit of the doubt), a distaste for preset punishments (mitigating circumstances), a preference for group togetherness but not necessarily unity (“We can all get along even though we are quite different”), suspicion of hierarchy, certainty, and strong leadership (flip-flopping is not a character flaw), an aversion to inequality (e.g., support for a graduated income tax), and greater general empathic tendencies (rehabilitate, don't punish).

It's as if the authors, knowing the reaction of their colleagues, hedge their bets against the worst accusation that can be made in the field: conservative.

And just to show that they are legitimate researchers, they spend a whole paragraph of their conclusion making sure the reader understand they hate President Bush and disdain Republican voters:

Similarly, if a Republican president had committed adultery with a young intern or if a Democratic president had dramatically worsened the deficit and taken the country to war in a far-off land on the basis of undeniably incorrect beliefs about the opponents' nuclear and chemical weapons capabilities, the positions of most voters on the acceptability of these conditions would be completely reversed. Issue positions generally reflect divisions; they do not create them.
Are you starting to get why I blog anonymously?

The authors also add this idiotic assessment to an otherwise fairly written analysis:

If anything, the heritability of orientation in combination with assortative mating may exacerbate the current divide.
This despite the fact that human evolution did not begin a single generation ago? If such assortive mating were to have any long-term political impact then the current divide that many pundits see between liberals and conservatives (who the authors claim are related to 'absolutists' and 'contextualists') then we should have killed each other long ago. If these two phenotypes, as they are called by the authors, have such inherently different views of the world then we would expect that over the very long term, that the world should be getting more violent...and not on account of better weapons, but because of genetics.

The only explanation I have that the authors concluding remarks were able to get through both the peer review and editorial process is that the editors and peer reviewers didn't think to question the odd logic based on the false assumption that America has never been more partisan than now. I'm afraid that those 500,000 Americans who died in the Civil War might beg to differ.....

While the article brings up some very interesting questions, finally liberated from backroom discussion, it should be seen as a beginning point and not an end. Such research in the future, I should hope, will avoid the type of liberal steryotyping used by the authors here in their concluding remarks.

All in all I am left agreeing with Pejman Yousefzadeh who says:

Genetics may very well influence how one behaves in the political sphere, but I think it is unwarranted for people like me to think that we are libertarian-conservatives because of something in our DNA.
NRO's The Corner is having a pretty good back and forth discussion on the study as well, although it is apparent none of them have read beyond the NY Times article either.

Hat tip: Memerandom

UPDATE: Shrink Wrapped has a good analysis of the NY Times reporter's misunderstanding of the underlying science.

Also, since Demosophist is a trained methodologist with a subscription to the APSR maybe he would like to add a few comments here? Same goes for Steve-oh-face and the other Steve, the Poliblogger.....

UPDATE II: Neuro Con has a pretty good analysis here as well.

UPDATE III: Charles Johnson notices this interpretation of the study by the MSM:

ItÂ’s not that conservatives mean to favor the rich over the poor and middle class.

And itÂ’s not that theyÂ’d rather drill for oil than preserve the environment.

Because itÂ’s not really their fault.

TheyÂ’re just born that way.

Posted by: Rusty at 01:23 PM | Comments (24) | Add Comment
Post contains 2439 words, total size 19 kb.

1 For the most authoritative book on the genetic basis of politics, read the amazing book entitled,Â’ Chimpanzee Politics : Power and Sex among Apes", by Frans de Waal.

Posted by: greg at June 21, 2005 04:10 PM (/+dAV)

2 damn that was long.

Posted by: Carlos at June 21, 2005 04:16 PM (8e/V4)

3 The correlations seem pretty low to me. It was a worthwhile study, but the results aren't all that earth shattering.

Posted by: greg at June 21, 2005 04:53 PM (/+dAV)

4 Soooooooo, genetics is responsible for the NYT folks running Gitmo frontpages 34 straight days! http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/087185.php Well I guess they're not responsible. All criticisms of the NYT should be removed from Internet archives Immediately!

Posted by: But They're Not Wimps! at June 21, 2005 05:29 PM (bAhDw)

5 I believe a person's political views are generally influenced by which side of their brain is in charge. Right-brainers are suckers for emotional issues that lack depth, such as free health care, foreign aid, etc., and left-brainers are more concerned with harsh realities such as long-term economic stability, national security, etc. This goes a long way to explain why "progressive" movements didn't catch on until the less educated members of society won voting rights, as poorly educated people tend to be more emotional and less rational. East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet.

Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at June 21, 2005 06:03 PM (0yYS2)

6 It's been a long time, but I still have a vague recollection of the Minnesota Twin Study. As I recall, the correlation coefficient was about .80 when comparing the 'intelligence' of monozygotic twins reared in different adoptive homes. THAT is statistically significant. Even so, I argued that the nature component was being exaggerated. This is because households that adopt children tend not to be destitute and are often Christian families. Therefore, even though the separated monozygotic twins didnÂ’t share the same roof, there was plenty of commonality in their environment. The correlation coefficients in the present study are generally much lower even before considering environmental commonalities.

Posted by: greg at June 21, 2005 07:36 PM (/+dAV)

7 Improbulus, I would never have broached this subject on my own. But those who live in Blue States tend to be better educated and have higher per capita earnings than those in Red States. I fully acknowledge this even though I reside in Texas. Furthermore, I don't recall that education has ever been a requisite to vote.

Posted by: greg at June 21, 2005 07:44 PM (/+dAV)

8 I would suggest that the higher per capita earnings are more due to higher costs of living. Everything from hambugers to rents are higher in the more congested and larger cities and so are average pay rates. I could be quite well educated and earn less in a small town for the same reason.

Posted by: Oyster at June 21, 2005 08:21 PM (YudAC)

9 Great post, Jawa. Please check out my comments at http://neuro-conservative.blogspot.com/. Overall, and in most important ways, I am in agreement with you. I think that your interpretation of the second table is somewhat inaccurate, however. If I am reading it correctly, I think the authors are saying that educational attainment is slightly more heritable than political ideology, which is in turn much more heritable than party affiliation. Also, the genetic component (heritability) to explaining variance in political ideology is stronger than *shared* environmental influences, not all environmental influences.

Posted by: Neuro-conservative at June 22, 2005 01:02 AM (PCe8f)

10 I am curious to know if the researchers touched on what seems to me to be a quasi natural evolution towards more conservative views as one gets older.

Posted by: Defense Guy at June 22, 2005 08:31 AM (lVjfM)

11 Earlier I described this study as ‘worthwhile’. After additional consideration, I’ve decided the study was more than just worthwhile. Heretofore, the social sciences such as political science and sociology have been anything but sciences. There currently is no unifying theorem such as Natural Selection in biology or quantum mechanics in physics. This study drags Political Sciences into the realm of true science, all be it, kicking and screaming. This has already been attempted in Sociology. The Harvard biologist, Dr. E O Wilson published a seminal book entitled, “Insect Societies”, and in so doing, he founded the discipline, Sociobiology. The baton was passed to the Sociobiologist, Dr Joseph Lopreato, who wrote, ‘Crisis In Sociology, the Need for Darwin”. I’ve had the privilege of speaking to Dr. Lopreato personally. He told me about the incredible resistance he encountered from the young Turk sociologists, who tend to be liberals and want no part of any hint that biology may play a role in sociological principles. In my opinion, the authors of the current study should have focused on more basic traits underlying political thinking than whether one is a Republican or a Democrat. They should study the heritability of things like aggression, reciprocity, leadership, leader worship, religious conviction, inter alia. I’m confidant that if they do so, they will find that aggression is genetically predisposed.

Posted by: greg at June 22, 2005 08:44 AM (/+dAV)

12 greg There was a study done about genetic traits causing a predisposition for religous conviction. I read it in NewsWeek a number of years ago.

Posted by: Defense Guy at June 22, 2005 08:56 AM (lVjfM)

13 DG, I'm not surprised.

Posted by: greg at June 22, 2005 09:02 AM (/+dAV)

14 If any of you guys are interesed in reading the actual study, I can send it to you. Just e-mail me.

Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at June 22, 2005 09:14 AM (JQjhA)

15 'He told me about the incredible resistance he encountered from the young Turk sociologists, who tend to be liberals and want no part of any hint that biology may play a role in sociological principles.' Curiously, these same people have no problem embracing neo-Darwinian theory when it used to support the contention that homosexuality is rooted in genetics. What hypocrisy!

Posted by: greg at June 22, 2005 09:54 AM (/+dAV)

16 Quothe greg: "Improbulus, I would never have broached this subject on my own. But those who live in Blue States tend to be better educated and have higher per capita earnings than those in Red States." Really now? So all those blacks and hispanics and idiotic poor white people who belong to unions, who voted dhimmicrat in the Northeast and California, whom the dhimmicrats trot out as being kept down by evil whitey, are all better educated and make more money than those stupid white Christian Republicans, who the dhimmis claim own everything and run the corporations? Which is it? Can't have it both ways, ya know. Oh, and John Kerry was supposed to be smarter than Bush too, wasn't he? Well, now we know that was a lie, too. George was a C student, John was a D student. Duh. Every statistic the dhimmis use is a lie or a twisted misrepresentation. It's provable, citable, and only disputable by the certifiable. I know a lot of educated people vote dhimmi, but "educated" is a relative term. I know lots of people who have degrees in art history or some such nonsense, but I wouldn't call them truly educated, because they are totally and completely useless to this world; give me someone who knows something useful to society. If all the art historians and philosophers disappeared tomorrow, nothing bad would happen, but what if all the plumbers and carpenters left? Don't bother though, because I know what you're saying; we're stupid proles and you're much, much smarter than we are, by several orders of magnitude, so we should shut up and keep digging and let you do all the thinking, right? "I fully acknowledge this even though I reside in Texas." Well, Texas has so many blacks and hispanics and poor white people, you should have cured cancer and established a Martian colony by now, with all that brainpower and disposable income. "Furthermore, I don't recall that education has ever been a requisite to vote." It wasn't about education so much as social class. Once upon a time, before women or blacks had voting rights, the electorate was all free white men, and before that, free white male Christian landowners. The right to vote has slowly trickled down to every class of society, and will soon probably be extended to felons such as murderes and child molesters, which I'm sure will boost the dhimmicrats in the polls considerably. The point I'm making here is that as voting rights are extended to more and more people, the more politics changes. Women don't vote with their brains, generally speaking, but rather their hearts, and most blacks still live on the dhimmicrat plantation for the most part, and vote how massa tells them to, because they've been scared into thinking that the Republicans are going to take away their welfare checks and hiring quotas and make them compete in the job and education market like everyone else. Well, they are right on that one. Imagine Republicans expecting someone to get by on their own merit. The bastards. Hispanics are proving harder to keep on the dhimmi reservation, because the Latino diaspora is very diverse, with most being quite conservative in their values, and many seeing the dhimmis for what they really are; mostly a bunch of effite white snobs who pity the poor little brown people, and don't think they're capable of making it in America, like everyone else did, without a handout from the government. Also, the ideas of success by merit and individual liberty appeal to most Hispanics, as they generally have a good work ethic and know real political oppression first-hand. The dhimmi house of cards, so carefully maintained by the media propaganda machine, is collapsing. Blacks and women are waking up to see that they've been lied to for a long time now. Hispanics are starting to see that it's not the dhimmis who are giving them the opportunity to get rich, but Republicans. You Marxist revolution has come to naught, and your wealth redistribution schemes are bankrupting the government. Good, the sooner the better.

Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at June 22, 2005 09:55 AM (0yYS2)

17 Improbulus, That those living in Blue States have a higher per capita income and are more 'educated' than those that live in Red States, is an undisputable fact. I wish it weren't so. The Education metric being defined as the highest grade achieved. Furthermore, Blue States, on Average, contribute more to the federal government in taxes than they receive in return. On the other hand, Red States, on Average, contribute less to the federal government in taxes than they receive in return. And yet, those from Red States are more likely to be critical of Welfare.

Posted by: greg at June 22, 2005 10:12 AM (/+dAV)

18 Improbulus, Now if you want to make the argument that the attainment of higher education doesnÂ’t translate into common sense, IÂ’m the first to agree. I lived for many years on a ranch I own in rural Texas. The closest store is 16 miles away. I served in the local VFD, which gave me a strong sense of community and made me well known to all of my neighbors. Most of the people in the area had a high school education at best. However, they had many valuable skills. Many could weld, or were good mechanics, or good carpenters, or water well servicemen, or had a good understanding of animal husbandry, or were expert hunters. When the shit hits the fan, theyÂ’re going to be the most adaptable people. ThatÂ’s why I held them close and tried to learn as much as I could from them. IÂ’ve traveled the world and my favorite people are Americans. Of them, I am most endeared by Texans who live in the Hill Country.

Posted by: greg at June 22, 2005 10:35 AM (/+dAV)

19 IM: "dhimmicrats trot out as being kept down by evil whitey, are all better educated and make more money than those stupid white Christian Republicans, who the dhimmis claim own everything and run the corporations?" Well, then. I'm sorry, you thought some politicians weren't liars? What are you putting besides mustard on that burger? I'm sure if you did poll all of the richest corporate CEO's, they'd most likely be Republican since it seems the Republicans don't want to tax the fuck out of rich people like the Democrats. That, and those pesky dems believe that farce that is "global warming" and nobody wants to be regulated. I don't trust either party. "John Kerry was supposed to be smarter than Bush too, wasn't he? Well, now we know that was a lie, too. George was a C student, John was a D student. Duh" Oh, come on. Both people have pros and cons, but you'll never convince me that Bush, inc. comes off as smarter. I know you'll probably disagree, but Bush looked like a spineless, nervous, whining chimp in the debates and got his ass whipped by Kerry repeatedly. Even if I take your word that Bush is smarter, his verbal skills and composure under pressure is pathetic. Kerry on the other hand sounds condescending. Like I've said before...they both suck donkeys. "If all the art historians and philosophers disappeared tomorrow, nothing bad would happen, but what if all the plumbers and carpenters left?" Interesting...I'm sure the historians and philosophers would have to get off their flat asses and put some elbow grease in doing a hard day's work. It wouldn't really work the other way around though, would it... "Well, they are right on that one. Imagine Republicans expecting someone to get by on their own merit. The bastards." Imagine the Republicans voting from all the former slave owning regions of the USA (red states) forgetting just how much they've fucked over American blacks in the past/present? Oh, just put 'em away in the projects so we don't have to look at them! Don't get me wrong though...I'm not for free rides or affirmative action. Actually, the biggest source of competition and racism towards blacks in NYC right now is from Africans! They come over here super motivated and work like crazy and are always messing with American born blacks. It is pretty sad because so many American blacks try to connect with pride to African roots, but every African I've met has no respect for them and doesn't like being associated with them in any way.

Posted by: osamabinhiding at June 22, 2005 10:59 AM (CYGDF)

20 "That those living in Blue States have a higher per capita income and are more 'educated' than those that live in Red States, is an undisputable fact." Blue states, primarily meaning California and the New England states, are where the largest cities are found. Like San Francisco, LA, New York, and Boston. Four of the most screwed up places you can think of, with high taxes, out of control crime, astronomical costs of living, and much higher than average poverty and homeless rates. Higher per capita income means nothing in the face of high cost of living, you know. The only reason large cities are islands of education is that cities are also where evil corporations are located. Evil, white owned, capitalist corporations. Imagine that. The very places that liberals rely on for their support are paid for by capitalist money. Where I live the income in much lower than in New York, but for some reason, people are willing to move here and take lower paying jobs because there's little crime, low taxes, low poverty and homeless rates, and low cost of living. And we mostly vote Republican, except for a few people who have little responsibility and no market competition in the workplace. The fact is that people who have to work for a living and compete to stay in business vote Republican, because the dhimmis don't understand basic economics. "I wish it weren't so. The Education metric being defined as the highest grade achieved." Education only increases ones chances of success, but does not ensure success. When I go to the local pub, my drinks are poured by a guy with a deology degree and served to me by a girl with a journalism degree. Go figure. "Furthermore, Blue States, on Average, contribute more to the federal government in taxes than they receive in return." Yes, because of the presence of said evil white capitalist corporations. If liberals ever get their way and kill the corporations, they will all starve. Not soon enough. "On the other hand, Red States, on Average, contribute less to the federal government in taxes than they receive in return." Yeah, never mind that the highways that connect the blue states, the farms that feed the blue states, and the people who primarily serve in the military and protect the blue states, are all in red states. "And yet, those from Red States are more likely to be critical of Welfare." Because welfare is nothing but theft from the working people to feed the lazy and stupid, and encourage them to breed.

Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at June 22, 2005 12:40 PM (0yYS2)

21 Red states, blue states? They should be designated as red/white/blue vs. pink.

Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at June 22, 2005 05:59 PM (ItccO)

22 osamabeenactinglikeadick said: "IM: "dhimmicrats trot out as being kept down by evil whitey, are all better educated and make more money than those stupid white Christian Republicans, who the dhimmis claim own everything and run the corporations?" "Well, then. I'm sorry, you thought some politicians weren't liars?" They all are, it's a job requirement. "What are you putting besides mustard on that burger?" WTF? "I'm sure if you did poll all of the richest corporate CEO's, they'd most likely be Republican since it seems the Republicans don't want to tax the fuck out of rich people like the Democrats." Republicans don't want to tax the fuck out of anyone, since high taxes actually cause revenues to go down. "That, and those pesky dems believe that farce that is "global warming" and nobody wants to be regulated." I'm not sure what you're saying here. Global warming is a fact, but it's also part of a natural phenomenon of climate regular shifts that's been going on for, oh, say about five billion years now. "I don't trust either party." Now you're starting to make sense. "John Kerry was supposed to be smarter than Bush too, wasn't he? Well, now we know that was a lie, too. George was a C student, John was a D student. Duh" "Oh, come on. Both people have pros and cons, but you'll never convince me that Bush, inc. comes off as smarter." He got elected and Kerry didn't. Bush made his money in business and Kerry inhereited, then married his. Twice. The evidence is damning. "I know you'll probably disagree, but Bush looked like a spineless, nervous, whining chimp in the debates and got his ass whipped by Kerry repeatedly." Dialogue isn't his strong suit, but it sure is Kerry's. Of course, this just means Kerry makes a more convincing liar. "Even if I take your word that Bush is smarter, his verbal skills and composure under pressure is pathetic." He's a people person. "Kerry on the other hand sounds condescending." Liars usually do if they're real good. " Like I've said before...they both suck donkeys." I want Condi. She's smarter than any politician alive, and better looking. "If all the art historians and philosophers disappeared tomorrow, nothing bad would happen, but what if all the plumbers and carpenters left?" "Interesting...I'm sure the historians and philosophers would have to get off their flat asses and put some elbow grease in doing a hard day's work." Well, there goes civilization. "It wouldn't really work the other way around though, would it..." No, plumbers and carptenters, by their very nature, could never be so useless to society. Tradesmen and craftsmen are by their nature useful people. Of course, I get what your're saying here, especially by using the ellipse as as written roll of the eyes. You think that simple men who work with their hands are stupid, and incapable of refined though. You think that farm boys and soldiers and carpenters should just shut up and do as they're told by you and your kind. you see yourself as part of the intelligentsia, and harbor bitterness at the injustice of a world that doesn't recognize you for the superior being that you are. Marx was a dumbass, and his idiocy has poisoned the world as nothing before, and as nothing will after. "Well, they are right on that one. Imagine Republicans expecting someone to get by on their own merit. The bastards." "Imagine the Republicans voting from all the former slave owning regions of the USA (red states) forgetting just how much they've fucked over American blacks in the past/present?" Wasn't it the dhimmicrats who were against the Civil Rights Act? Yes it was. Wasn't it a Republican who freed the slaves? Yep. Why should it be shocking that the New South is so different from the Old South? Wasn't that the whole point all along? The South has changed, but the Republicans and dhimmicrats have not, so the South changed sides. It's funny that blacks still side with the dhimmis though. "Oh, just put 'em away in the projects so we don't have to look at them!" Wasn't it the dhimmis who created the projects, and welfare? Why yes, I do believe it was. "Don't get me wrong though...I'm not for free rides or affirmative action. Actually, the biggest source of competition and racism towards blacks in NYC right now is from Africans! They come over here super motivated and work like crazy and are always messing with American born blacks. It is pretty sad because so many American blacks try to connect with pride to African roots, but every African I've met has no respect for them and doesn't like being associated with them in any way." True. I've known several Africans, fine fellows all. They make especially good soldiers.

Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at June 22, 2005 08:41 PM (0yYS2)

23 This is priceless and worth checking out, IM: http://www.livejournal.com/users/zete_tic/329.html

Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at June 23, 2005 08:20 AM (x+5JB)

24 IM been buying ammo said: "They all are, it's a job requirement." Very true. ""What are you putting besides mustard on that burger?" WTF?" Heinz, man. "Republicans don't want to tax the fuck out of anyone, since high taxes actually cause revenues to go down." Well, the Republicans have quite the reputation for giving rich people a break when it comes to taxes, as well as other corporate benefits. I also think the Dems are Republicans in cheap suits. "I'm not sure what you're saying here. Global warming is a fact, but it's also part of a natural phenomenon of climate regular shifts that's been going on for, oh, say about five billion years now." IM, yeah the world goes through slow cycles of ice ages and tropical weather...it's usually dictated by the earth's position to the sun and plate tectonics effecting the flow of the ocean currents. The amount of changes in weather, ozone and general ratios of gasses in our atmosphere over the past 100 years is shocking. There's nothing natural about that. See, you are enlightened enough to trust science...probably because you are an atheist, no? I've met some conservatives who actually think that global warming is a lie. ""I don't trust either party." Now you're starting to make sense." Haha. I've been thinking that way since birth. "He got elected and Kerry didn't. Bush made his money in business and Kerry inhereited, then married his. Twice. The evidence is damning." Bush made his money? I thought it was more like daddy kept trying to set him up to do so, and he kept running shit into the ground. I have no idea about how Kerry has made money, but I do know he "married up". "Dialogue isn't his strong suit, but it sure is Kerry's. Of course, this just means Kerry makes a more convincing liar." Ha! True... By the way, what the hell was that think on Bush's back during the debates? I know all the moon-bats were obsessing over it, but the images were from video that wasn't still framed and photoshopped. You really can see a bulge and wire. I mean, if the guy needs some coaching for speeches, that's ok. It would be cheating to use that in a debate though... "He's a people person." Yeah, but I find that a bit insulting...because that almost implies that Americans are badly spoken or stubborn. "I want Condi. She's smarter than any politician alive, and better looking." I'm not sure I can agree with you on this, especially on the latter! It would be pretty interesting if she and Hillary ran against each other. Can you imagine them debating? Cat fight! "Well, there goes civilization." Yeah, I'm sure all the houses would look like they were built during Russia's communist days... "No, plumbers and carptenters, by their very nature, could never be so useless to society. Tradesmen and craftsmen are by their nature useful people. Of course, I get what your're saying here, especially by using the ellipse as as written roll of the eyes. You think that simple men who work with their hands are stupid, and incapable of refined though. You think that farm boys and soldiers and carpenters should just shut up and do as they're told by you and your kind. you see yourself as part of the intelligentsia, and harbor bitterness at the injustice of a world that doesn't recognize you for the superior being that you are. Marx was a dumbass, and his idiocy has poisoned the world as nothing before, and as nothing will after." Actually, I don't think that way. If you only knew the jobs I've had! Hahaha... I've been poor and know many trades and grew up working on a farm. When shit busts around my place, I repair it or build something new. I've never claimed to be some lofty lefty. "Well, they are right on that one. Imagine Republicans expecting someone to get by on their own merit. The bastards." "Wasn't it the dhimmicrats who were against the Civil Rights Act? Yes it was. Wasn't it a Republican who freed the slaves? Yep. Why should it be shocking that the New South is so different from the Old South? Wasn't that the whole point all along? The South has changed, but the Republicans and dhimmicrats have not, so the South changed sides. It's funny that blacks still side with the dhimmis though." I think it's because they think all the rich whitey's are Republican. "Wasn't it the dhimmis who created the projects, and welfare? Why yes, I do believe it was." Yes on welfare, not sure about the projects. Man, I think projects are the worst... "True. I've known several Africans, fine fellows all. They make especially good soldiers." You knew some in the army? USA soldiers?

Posted by: osamabeenthere at June 23, 2005 11:51 AM (CYGDF)

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