1 This is nothing more than an attempt to take over a school without it costing anything, plus it would be a symbolic victory over the Catholic Church. If the Muslims can get the British to give up and just roll over to their demands, then they have won without a fight, which has always been one of the stategies of the jihad. The fact that the Muslims have staged suicide bombings in GB already has had the effect of scaring the kuffirs. That this(terrorism) is another strategy of jihad is also well known from history. The jihad is used in three distinct ways: 1. A violent invasion of a region with the destrution of all other religions and their places of worship, with the civilian population enslaved, killed, or forcibly converted to Islam. 2. Terrorist attacks used to intimidate a population after a certain percentage of the population is Muslim. 3. A non-violent takeover of a region using the threat of the other two prongs of the jihad. The threat does not have to be overt if terrorism has already been used. In other words, the population succumbs to Islam under threat of violence. The third option is being used in this effort to take over the school in Scotland.

2 I don't buy the story completely at face value - too many holes and un-answered questions. At its core - its stupid and doesn't make any sense. I'll sit it out n' let the pro/con bashers have fun with it.

3 These people are outrageous. I just love this line, where the peaceful jihadi kindly requests that they be good little dhimmis: "To move towards this would be a fantastic example of good faith - in more ways than one - on the part of the Church."

4 Let's imagine the opposite takes place. Catholic children are enrolled, en masse, in an Islamic school. When they are the majority of students, a Catholic group campaigns to change it's religious identity. Muslims everywhere agree that this would be a "fantastic example of good faith". hahahahaha!

5 A catholic school where 90% of the students are muslim? Do western schools ever become over run by any other denomination besides Islam? Where are the schools that now have a Buddhist majority?

6 Oyster, Muslims would never allow Catholic students to enroll in their schools. I'm like you Oyster, I can just imagine the reaction if the opposite was to happen. The Christian crusaders are trying to take over one of the schools of the ummah would be the likely statement.

7 On the contrary JJ. I don't see an Islamic school passing up an opportunity to pound its beliefs into an "unbeliever". I see the requirement for that to be that the Catholic student must follow ALL practices at the school. I don't buy the statement that the islamic students at the school "are having to take part in Catholic rituals like saying the Lord's Prayer and attending mass". I attended a Catholic high school founded by Irish priests and the policy regarding non-catholic students was that they were not obligated to participate in religious activities.

8 i hope the story is carried on jawa also, but michelle malkin today has a story how the new york times faked a picture showing an in pakastan a young boy and an older man standing near an artillary shell, and claimed that the picture is about some innocent bystanders who was near when the predator fired at the alqada bigwig several days ago leaving the suggestion these innocent bystanders were the victims of Pres. Bush. the new york times must have learned about faking photographs from the charlitans who fake ufo pictures and big foot photos but the times hasn't learn it is easy to prove fraud as ufo charlitans etc has learned .

9 It's not a faked photo, it's just not as represented.

10 The photo is actually from a U.S. airstrike in early 2005 (I looked it up). No word on whether it killed any civilians. Not our problem, though. If a country (or village) harbors enemies of this country, they are fair game. Hand them over, and there won't be any further need for airstrikes. You've been warned.

11 You might be right, Graeme, as I live in rural Texas and Arkansas and don't come into regular contact with either Catholics or Muslims.

12 Carlos, airstrikes generally aren't carried out with 155mm artillery strapped under the aircrafts' wings, although the AC-130 gunships do have 105's on board. This round isn't a 105.

13 IM, Then Getty images got it wrong too, I guess.

14 It really depends on the school. The Catholic schools I went to did require all children to participate in all activities. Hey, if you don't want your kid doing "Catholic stuff," then perhaps a Catholic school is not the right place for him.

15 Victoria is definitely not a liberal.

16 "Victoria is definitely not a liberal." LOL! Be sure your sins will find you out!

17 How is it possible to have 90% Muslim school in Glasgow? Wow, the world sure is getting multicultural all over. I'm glad everyone thinks it's cold and dark in here, eventhough this 3 day period is the first this winter to have temperatures constantly below freezing and there's barely enough snow to roll in after sauna... which is the main reason why I'm getting bored enough to bother Internet-persons about stuff that are evvk even to me.

18 Hey Finn, how many muslims do you blow in an average weekend, and do they have you make sheep noises while they ride you?

19 A finn Your right - 90% is an absurb figure - though this is a private school so it could be on the high side. Think story was just BS with a writer producing filler and finding a local loudmouth ass to assist.

1 And just think, the UK may import him here! If they do extradict his fat ass to the US, I may start a betting pool on the time it takes one of the following organizations start defending him as a hapless victim of American Imperialist/Crusader aggression. Who'll be the first to stand up for our buddy Dr. Hook: 1) ACLU 2) CAIR 3) Code Pink 4) Amnesty International 5) ICRC 6) International ANSWER

2 Dudes like this one knock Pat Robertson into a cocked hat. I'd love to crawl into his skull and figure out his thought processes. Logical fallacies, emotional thinking, flawed assumptions are all common enough, but magical thinking like this would point to schizophrenia if it was coming out of a street bum instead of a cleric. The exhortations to murder kafir are consistant with the religion, but what inspired him to attempt this in London? Are the 1.5 million Muslims in the U.K. supposed to forcibly convert or slay the other 58.5 million Brits, abolish the C of E, and establish the Islamic Kingdom of Britain? It would be funny to see the Union Jack redone on a crescent motif, but really, how much hash do you have to toke in order to see all this in your mind's eye as a real possibility? Then there's the Jew thing. It's common to hear Muslims impute fantastic evil powers to Jews, which is sort of understandable when you're reading some rant out of Hejaz where there aren't any, but this nutcase has been living in London for at least 7 years. He must have seen some Jews. Does U.K. have different Jews from the U.S.? I'm thinking of slightly dumpy people with silly hats and East European surnames. If they were truly servants of the dark side of The Force, I'd expect something Goth, like black cowls and blood-red eyes. And if they're pulling all the political strings, why didn't I get to take the day off for Hanukah?

3 Read somewhere there are two million ragheads in the UK. Have they gone nuts? They will breed like rats and jolly ole England will be no more. Deport the vermin. NOW.

4 This guys is messed up psychologically AND physically. He has no hands and only one eye. There's a little more history on him here.

1 Yet a mooselimb in the other thread, accuses the U.S of making Afghanistan a hell hole, it just shows you the Islamic ideology also shorts out all logic from the brain.

2 Howie, this dovetails rather nicely with the post I just made about the upcoming suicide bomber movie. Is anyone else reminded of that "the Mafia doesn't exist" period we went through in the eighties?

3 It is a hideous religion that would kill a man, a Muslim no less, who has done nothing more than try to educate girls so they can help themselves out of poverty. I'm waiting for the moderate Muslims to condemn this murder and all murders committed in the name of Islam. I've been waiting a long time.

4 Amaad: Here's your chance to make Dave's day.

5 The Taliban have shown themselves once again to be cowards and scum of the lowest order. Despite the beatings and intimidation, this teacher was willing to stand firm and do what he thought was right and to help his country advance. That's courage.

6 "The Islamic teachings about jihad are what uproots oppression and guarantees people the freedom to think and to choose their religion for themselves without being under any compulsion. Islam seeks to have people freely submit themselves to their Creator and not be placed under the subjugation of any worldly dictator, race, tribe, or nationality" AMAAD 1/4/2006 Ya sure, you betcha. Dude, they cut dad's head off in front of his 8 kids.

7 I thought Muslims were not to imbibe in the spirits, yet Amaad makes a statement like that and claims to be sober. Now that's funny!

8 And it's not even Ramadan yet.

9 You'd have known about this two weeks ago if you read the Carnival of the Liberated over at Dean's World. I picked it up from an Afghan blogger on December 20.

10 Dave. You got me I did not read it. Sorry. Give me a heads up now and then and I'll link it. I think I need an RSS reader or a net surfing sponsor... Howie brought to you by Pioneer Seed! Get better yields and your choice of this green farmer's hoodie or this black insulated winter jacket with the pioneer logo. Ah I can see it now.

11 Par for the course, my friends. Any one surprised? Thought not...

12 Muslims are silly little children. Nothing more. The world should stop educating them and allowing them to leave their silly little cruel countries. Shun them. Piss on them.

13 Since we're too civilized as a nation to just nuke them into submission, as we rightfully should, and nor are we likely to purge the libtards from among us, we should at least exile all libtards to muslim countries, and prohibit mulsims and libtards from entering civilized countries upon pain of death.

14 Opium Poppy production up 264% since the US-led forces captured Afghanistan. WOMEN IN ISLAM Women and Their Status In Islam by Muhammad Adbul Aleem Siddiqui (R.A) Reproduced with permission from World Islamic Mission (Canada) History is silent as to whether there was any distinction in status between the male and the female sexes during the beginnings of human civilization. In later days no doubt the female sex was regarded as inferior to the male and the idea of inferiority developed to such an extent that the male sex not only claimed a complete superiority over the female sex, but further arrogated to itself the right to utilise and employ the female sex as it liked. Surveying the history of the world on this point we find that in pre-Christian Europe and Greece, which was the centre of light and learning for a long time and which provided philosophical and scientific inspiration to the Europe of later days, regarded woman as something definitely inferior to man. She was a subservient creature who had come into existence solely for the purpose of breeding citizens for the state and soldiers for the army. Their great dramatist Euripedes puts into the mouth of Medea the remark. "Women are impotent for good, but clever contrivers of all evils," Such degrading conceptions led to a moral.degeneration which ultimately ruined the Greek society. The names of virtuous women says Professor Lecky, scarcely appear in Greek history." (History of European Morals, Vol:ll p. 307). Conditions in Europe did not irnprove with the advent of Christianity. "Of the woman came the beginning of sin and the wickedness of man and through her we all die. " Consequently, Paul, the premier saint of Christendom, proclaimed: "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence, for Adam was first formed than Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in transgression." Other early Fathers were even more uncharitable and denounced women as "the lance of the demon," "the gate of the Devil," "the road of iniquity." "the sting of the scorpion," a daughter of falsehood, the sentinel of Hell," "the enemy of peace" and "of the wild beast, the most dangerous." Nay, they went still further. The Greek Orthodox Church denied that woman had a soul and at the Council of Macon, a Bishop vehemently asserted that a woman did not belong to the human species. (Westermarck, p.663) A council held at Auxierre prohibited women [from receiving] the Eucharist [with their bare] hands [or] to [go] near the altar during the celebration of the Mass on the ground that she was an "unclean thing". "I may define man," says Principal Donaldson (Woman, pp. 181, 182), "to be a male human being and woman to be a female human being . . . Now what the early Christains did was to strike the 'male' out of the definition of man and 'human being' out of the definition of woman. Man was [a] human being made for the highest and noblest purpose; woman was a female made to serve only. She was on earth to influence the heart of man with every evil passion. She was a fire[storm] continually striving to get alongside the male man-of-war to blow him up into pieces." In the Asian cradles of civilization [women were] no better off. Hinduism, which is the oldest among the present day religions of the world, laid it down: 'In childhood a female must be subjected to her father, in youth to her husband, when her husband is dead, to her sons; a woman must never be independent'. (Manu, V 140). "The legislator Man", says the celebrated Hindu scholar, Sir R. G. Bhandarkar,"is equally hard on women. It must be acknowledged that the estimate of the old Aryan of womanly nature is not flattering to them generally. They are debarred from reading the Vedas; any religious rite in which they alone are concerned is directed to be performed without Vedic Mantras. Even the Bhagavad Gita gives expression to the general belief that it is only a sinful soul that is born as woman, Vaisya or Sudra". (Collected Works, p. 46 1). In Buddhism, says the Buddhist scholar, May Oung, "the idea of wedlock and its attendant worldly life, is opposed to the ultimate and the annihilation of Desire, the striving for which must necessarily involve celibacy." (Buddhist Law, Par. 1, p. 2). In Buddhist ideology, therefore, according to the historian Westermarck,"Woman are, of all the snares which the temper has spread for men, the most dangerous; in women are embodied all the powers of infatuation which blind the mind of the world." In pre-lslamic Arabia, the general conception of womanhood was of such a degraded type that her very existence was considered ignominious for the family. Female infanticide was consequently practiced on a wide scale. Those women, however, who escaped early death were allowed to live only on sufferance. For, an Arab woman "had no rights; she could not inherit property; her person formed part of the inheritance which came to the heir of her husband, and he was entitled to marry her against her will. Hence sprung up the impious marriages of their sons with their stepmothers and others of an even worse character. . ." "Polygamy was universal and quite unrestricted; equally so was divorce at least as far as man was concerned; (Mohammed and Mohammedanism; Bosworth Smith; p 82) Such was the condition of the female sex in the world when Mohammed (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) the Saviour of womanhood, stood up in Arabia and, through the Divine Revelation of the Lord of the Universe Who created both the male and the female and Who loves them equally, preached to the world that : females were just like males have equal rights have equal honour equal status in life They were on no account to be treated as the property of the males. They have the right of ownership of property in the same way that males have, though, no doubt under the principle of the division, the female sex has some specialised duties to perform in life, just as the male sex has its own duties. There are three stages through which womenfolk will pass in life: (a) daughter (b) wife, and (c) mother. (a) DAUGHTER Islam denounces in unequivocal terms the pre-Islamic inhumane custom of female infanticide and commands people to love and cherish their daughters even more than their sons. The Holy Qur'an says that on the Day of Judgment, the female infant who was buried alive will be questioned: "For what crime wast thou murdered?" [Qur'an 81:8,9] Thus before the Almighty, the victim herself will be able to give evidence against those who killed an innocent creature of Allah simply for the sake of satisfying their vanity. Allah again commands humanity: "Kill not your children for fear of want. We shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you. Verily, to kill them is a great sin. [Qur'an 17:31] Fatimah was the youngest daughter of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him). In dealing with her, he set an example of fatherly love which is a model for mankind. "Fatimah," he would say, "is a part of my being; whosoever annoys her annoys me" (Mishkat-ul-Masabih, XLIV:S) He also emphasized preferential treatment towards the female sex and said "When you bring anything for your children for distribution, begin with the girls first because the girls love their parents more than the boys." (b) WIFE Marriage in Islamic law is really a contract just like other civil contracts between two parties. As far as the conditions of the contract are concerned, both the parties, the man and the woman, stand upon the same level. Each party has certain rights and duties. Islam commands justice to be observed in every contract, and so in the contract of marriage too justice should be observed. The Holy Quran says: "The women have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable." [Qur'an 2:228] No doubt, under the principle of the distribution of labour, work should be divided between the pair. The womenfolk have naturally to take care of their offspring until they grow up. They have to engage themselves in bringing them up and so are not in a position to pay attention to securing their means of livelihood. The men, therefore, have been made responsible for maintaining the family, including the wife, and have been given the duty of securing all the requirments of the home. Thus we might say that in a Muslim home, the husband is supposed to work as the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the wife as the Minister of the Interior. The Holy Prophet is reported to have said : "A woman is the queen of her house." The Holy Quran describes the position of the wife in a beautiful verse, "He created for you mates from among yourselves that you might find solace in them and he ordained between you love and mercy," [Qur'an 30:21] The Prophet said: "The most perfect of believers in faith is the best of them in morals and the best of you are those who are kindest to your wives." In his famous Address at the Farewell Pilgrimage, the Prophet again laid stress on the good treatment on womenfolk. He said: "O my people, you have certain rights over your wives and so have your wives over you .... they are Allah's trust in your hand. See that you treat them with all kindness." Before this saviour of the female sex preached his Message, there was no limit for the males in respect of the number of their wives. Islam really imposed a limit and allowed plurality of marriage with the idea of abolishing adultery. Polygamy is permitted in place of illegal intercourse in cases where it becomes difficult or rather impossible ill the interest of social health to restrict marriage to strict monogamy. There are two definite occasions in the lives of human beings when polygamy becomes necessary. For example, if the marriage proves fruitless, the husband can, in most cases, be kept on the path of virtue and uprightness only by allowing a second marriage. Again, when there is a surplus of women, as happens after men have died in wars, human society can be saved from corruption and also extinction by the permission of marrying more than one wife. The Holy Quran restricts the number of wives to four and also orders complete equality and justice between them: "And if you fear that you will not deal fairly towards the orphans, marry of the women who seem good to you, two or three or four, and if you fear that you cannot do justice between them , then (marry) only one." [Qur'an 4:3] The conditions of the marriage contract are to be settled by the parties of the marriage. If, on the one hand according to the Islamic teaching, the husbands are entitled to have the right of divorce, the wives are also entitled to the right of fixing their dowry and niaintainence as they like, and they may also take the authority of separating themselves from their husbands when they find it necessary to do so. If agreement at a time of marriage is made with complete consideration, the parties stand practically at the same level and there remains no possibility for the womenfolk to suffer. Islam enjoins justice, equity and straightforwardness. Therefore if those who claim to be Muslims do not observe Islamic principles, then it is their fault and Islam can on no account be accused for that. If today people misuse the permission for polygamy and try to hide their lustftil actions under the cloak of Islamic legality, it is their fault and they deserve the most severe punishment at the Court of the All-Knowing Allah who knows what is in their hearts. (c) MOTHER As mothers, the status of women has been raised by Islam to such an extent that nothing higher is conceivable. The Holy Quran says: Your Lord has commanded that you shall worship none but Him and goodness to your parents. If either or both of them reach old age in your life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour. And make yourself submissively gentle to them with compassion and say: O my Lord bestow on them compassion even as they cherished me in my childhood.[Qur'an 17 23-24] It is reported that when the Prophet was questioned by a disciple as to who after God and his Prophet should be revered most, the Prophet said "Your mother." When questioned "Who, after the mother?" The Prophet said "Your mother." He was again asked "And, then, who after the mother? " He again replied: "Your mother". The man put the question for the fourth time and the Prophet then answered: "Your father." This Tradition shows that the position of the mother in the eyes of her sons and daughters should be three times higher than that of the father. It is reported that once a disciple came to the Prophet and said "O Prophet Of Allah, on a hot day in the desert of Arabia, in the sunny noon when the stones and sands were burning like fire, my mother and I were travelling by foot without any shoes. I carried my mother on my shoulders so that she may not suffer the pain of walking bare-footed on the hot sands and stones. Could I pay the reward of the pains she had to bear in bringing me up?" The Prophet replied:"No, not even a fraction of the pain she suffered at the time you were born." In Islam the best action of worship is the performance of Pilgrimage to Mecca, i.e., the Hajj, and the reward to a person who performs the Hajj properly is that all his past sins are pardoned and he receives a high rank in the estimation of Allah. But in expressing the dignity of the mother, the Holy Prophet said: "One who looks at the face of his mother with sentiments of reverence and love once, is rewarded as if he had performed the Pilgrimage." The people asked him, what if he looked twice, to which he replied: "It is as if he had performed two Pilgrimages, and thrice, as if he had performed three Pilgrimages and so on. In this respect, the Prophet himself set a model for the world. Once Halimah, the lady who nursed him in his childhood came to see him. The Prophet was sitting with his disciples. As soon as he saw her, he stood up with reverence and spread his mantle on the floor and requested his foster-mother to take her seat there. It is quite evident from the above that the respect which a mother receives from her children in Islam is the highest to which no other wordly relationship can aspire. The doors of spiritual elevation are open to woman in the same way as they are open to men. They are commanded to educate themselves in the same way as the men, and if they attain a high position in learning, "Never will I waste the work of a worker among you, whether male or female. You are members, one of another."[Qur'an 3:195]. Afganistan is now a US country, maybe the fact that the Taliban did not allow the US to build a gas pipe through the country led to the invasion of Afghanistan. Ahmed Karzai will bow down to every request made by the American government. Muslims are the people that sort out all logic from the brain? The Islamic empire in the early 6th. centuries were the inheritors of the scientific tradition of late antiquity. They preserved it, elaborated it, and finally, passed it to Europe (Science p3). At this early date, the Islamic dynasty of the Umayyads envinced an interest in science. It was the century that were, for Europeans, the Dark Ages, were, for Muslim scholars, centuries of philosophical and scientific discovery and development. The Arabs at the time not only assimilated the ancient wisdom of Persia, and the classical heritage of Greece, but adapted their own distinctive needs and ways of thinking (Hitti 363). The Islamic ability to reconcile monotheism and science proofs to be a first time in human thought that theology, philosophy, and science were finally harmonized in a unified whole. Thus their contribution was "one of the first magnitude, considering its effect upon scientific and philosophic thought and upon the theology of later times" (Hitti 580). One of the reason for such development of science is probably due to God's commandment to explore the laws of nature. The idea is to admire all creations for its complexity - to cherish the creator for the ingenuity. Possibly holding to this believe, Islam's contributions to science had covered many roots of thought including mathematics, astronomy, medicine and philosophy. This paper will examine these roots of natural science, and unearth the contributions of the Islamic thinkers. Islam's redound to encourage into thinking was accessed by two other ancient cultures - the Persian and the Indians. They became part of the Islamic heritage in the field of mathematics (Hitti 373). About the year 600 A.H.-during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad - an Indian Muslim mathematician developed the symbol "cipher" or zero and the system of placed notation. This invention, first mentioned in a Syriac text written in 662 AD, revolutionized the study of mathematics and made possible the great achievements of Muslim mathematicians (Science p4). Mathematical vocabulary such as "algebra" and "algorithm" are actually borrowings from Arabic words, that were later translated into Latin. It was a Muslim mathematician who formulated the trigonometric function explicitly. The word "sine" was actually the direct translation of the arabic word "jayb". An English mathematician Robert of Chester, who flourished in the middle of the twelfth century, was the first to use sinus equivalent to this Arabic jayb in its trigonometrical acception (Hitti 573). Al-Khwarizmi composed the oldest book on mathematics, known only in translation. He presented more than 800 examples of the calculation of integration and equation, later anticipated by Neo-Babylonians (Hitti 379)."As in trigonometry so in Algebra Muslims must be considered as the founders of this science whose very name reflects its origin... al-Khwarizmi... firmly established this branch of mathematics" (qtd. King 214). They introduced it with the Arabic numerals into Europe and taught Westerners the most convenient convention of arithmetic concept. "The zero and Arabic numerals lie behind the science of calculation as we know it today" (Hitti 573-574). In the first half of the ninth century, exponent numerals including the zero is used in preference to letters by al- Khwarizmi. In the second half of the ninth century, the Muslims of Spain developed numerals slightly different in shape, huruf al-ghubar (letters of dust), originally used in conjunction with a type of sand abacus. Leonardo Fibonacci of Pisa, who was taught by a Muslim master published a work which remain a landmark in the introduction of the Arabic numerals (Hitti 573-574). Early in the ninth century, mathematical calculations stimulates the crave for answers to the celestial motion. This curiosity introduces a new field of thought, called astronomy. One most important application of astronomy is the timekeeping for the time of the five daily prayers. These are defined according to the position of the sun moving from east to west. The earliest known tables for such purpose are dated from the tenth century (King 46-4 . As necessary to accurate timekeeping as tables are the instruments used by the Muslims: The magnificent sundial that ibn al-Shatir constructed in the year 1371/72 to adorn the main minaret of the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus. The sundial displays the time of day relative to sunrise, midday, and sunset and relative to the afternoon prayer. There are also special curves for times relative to daybreak and nightfall. Thus the sundial effectively measures time with respect to each of the five daily prayers (King 547). An individual by the name of Ibn al-Sarraj devised a series of astrolables, quadrants, trigonometric grids and other instruments which are innovative to the extreme. "I consider Ibn al-Sarraj's astrolable, which is universal from five different aspects, to be the most sophisticated astrolable from the Near East and Europe..." (King 544). Al-Khwarizmi, the genius mathematician, at the time applied his findings to the new field from which he composed the oldest planetary tables, or the zij (King 39, Hitti 379). His work serves as a reference text and were rendered into Latin in the twelfth century by Gerard of Cremona (Hitti 571). Among the first regular astronomical observatory tower constructed was in Jundaysabur, south west of Persia, under the direction of Sind ibn-'Ali, and Yahaya ibn-abi-Mansur. Being the Caliph's astronomer, not only that they construct a systematic chart of celestial movements, but also verified the fundamental elements of the Almangest (Hitti 373-375). The astronomers of al-Mamun, the Abbasid Caliph, made many original observations. One of the most outstanding is the measurement of the meridian near Mosul. It was found to be 111,814 meters, and measured a degree of latitude at about 36x north to be 2877 feet (qtd. King 214-215). "The object is to determine the size of the earth and its circumference on the assumption that the earth was round" (Hitti 375). In Spain, astronomical studies were cultivated after the middle of the tenth century. They reproduced the Aristotelian system, as distinguished from the Ptolemaic, the representation of celestial movements. Abu-al-Qasim Maslamah al-Majriti (of Madrid), the earliest Spanish Muslim astronomer edited and corrected the zij (planetary tables of al-Khwarizmi), the first tables composed by a Muslim. Among al-Majriti titles were al- hisab or the mathematician, for he was considered the leader in mathematical knowledge. About fourteen years later, the zij that of al-Battani, was rendered into Latin by Plato of Tivoli. Copernicus later quotes al-Battani in his book De revolutionibus orbium coelestium . Al-Zarqali (known as Arzachel in Latin West) the foremost astronomical observer of his age, deviced the safihah, a type of astrolabe, that prove the motion of solar apogee with reference to the stars (Hitti 570-71). Al-Bitruji, known as Alpetragius developed a new theory of stellar movement and wrote The book of Form in which it was detailed (Science p22 c3). Arab astronomers left the sky immortal traces of their findings. Not only are most of the star-names in European languages are of Arabic origin (The Worlds Almanac and fact Book p199 c2), but a number of technical term such as "azimuth" (al- sumut), "nadir" (nazir), "zenith" (al-samt) are of Arabic etymology. This testifies the rich legacy of Islam to Christian Europe (Hitti 573). The first of the Arabians, the rival indeed of Galen, was the Persian Ibn Sina, or better known as Avicenna. He was given the title 'the Prince of Medicine'. His most celebrated work is Al-Qanun Fil-Tibb or "the Canon of Medicine." He is one of the greatest names in the history of medicine. He could repeat the Quraan by heart when he was ten years old, and by twelve he had disputed in law and logic. He found that medicine was an easy subject, not hard and thorny (Osler 9 . "When I found a difficulty," he says, "I reffered to my notes and prayed to the creator" (qtd. Osler 9 . His book was long and lengthy, testifying many aspects of medicine. He classifies efficient causes and symptoms of diseases. He said that diseases are caused by the imbalance of the four elementary qualities of hot, wet cold and dry in the body. Those caused by the faulty composition or conformation of bodily parts, and those caused by trauma. The cause of disease is categorize as either connected by the environment, regimen, and psychology. Among them are the traditional scheme of "non naturals" from air, food and drink, repletion and inanition, to the passions of the soul. His book also discuss concerns for the conservation of health: separate sections on pediatric, adult, and geriatric regimen. Avicenna provides twenty one fen on ailments distinctive to each major organs of the body-arranged from head to toe. (Siraisi 21-22). The "Black Death", in the middle of the fourteenth century ravaged Europe while the Christians stood helpless. Ibn-al- Khatib, a physician of Granada composed a treaties in defence of the contagion theory and said: To those who say, "How can we admit the possibility of infection while the religious law denies it?" we reply that the existence of contagion is established by experience, investigation, the evidence on the senses and trustworthy reports. These facts constitute a sound argument. The fact of contagion becomes clear to the investigator who notices how he who establishes contact with afflicted gets the disease, whereas he who is not in contact remains safe, and how transmission through garments, vessels and earrings (qtd. Hitti 576). The circulation of blood and the idea of quarantine came from an empirical indication of contagion. It was discovered by Ibn al- Nafis. Ibn Juljul of Cordoba in 943 became a leading physician at the age of 24, compiled a book of special treaties on drugs found in al-Andalus, the Iberian Peninsula (science p23). Ibn-Masawayh wrote the oldest systematic treaties on opthamology. The book, titled al-Ashr Maqalat fi al-'Ayn (the ten treaties of the eye) was the earliest existing text book of opthmathology. In the curative use of drugs, some amazing advances were made by the Muslims. They have established the first apothecary shops, and founded the earliest school of pharmacy (Hitti 364). The Prince of Medicine, Avicenna, is himself a philosopher (Arabic falsafah). Philosophy at the time is defined as the knowledge of the true cause of things as they really are (Hitti 369). He is the first of the Arabic language who created a philosophical system which is really complete and whole (Khan 5). "It is noteworthy that Avicenna to his independent intellectual attainments was without undue modesty" (Fakhry 149). From his initial study of logic, he turned to the study of physics, and metaphysics entirely on his own. He became the mentor of many senior physician at the age of sixteen. By the age of eighteen, he had mastered logic, physics and mathematics, so there was nothing left for him to learn except to concentrate on metaphysics. His major philosophical treaties is Kitab al-Shifa or the Book of Healing , known in Latin by the title Sufficienta. It is an encyclopedia of Islamic-Greek learning in the eleventh century, ranging from logic to mathematics (Fakhry 149-150). Another greatest patron of Philosophy and science in the history of Islam is Caliph Al-Mamun. Son of Caliph Harun al- Rashid, he encouraged on holding disputes in court on logical, legal, and grammar (Rahman 182). He express with liberal mindedness, great openness and equanimity (Fakhry 23). He established in Baghdad his famous Bayt al-Hikmah (house of wisdom) (Rahman 4), a combination library and academy which in many respect is an important educational institution (Hitti 310). This library contains books on all subjects-literature, specifically Islamic sciences, natural sciences, logic, philosophy, an many other subjects of thoughts (Rahman 182-183). The greatest figure in the history of Islamic philosophy and reaction to Neo Platonism is Imam al-Ghazali - a jurist, theologian, philosopher and mystic. He said that the "Fiqh" is the daily bread of believing soul, while the doctrine is only as valuable as a medicine for the sick (De Boer 39). He also said that he is being seized by the desire for the truth. He resolved to search for a "certain knowledge" upon which the object known in manner is not open to doubt at all. So if the truth were to be challenged by a miracle-maker, it would withstand its claim - solid (Fakhry 244-245). Fundamentally, al-Ghazali affirmed an agnosticism about the ultimate and absolute nature of God. This need for religious certainty impelled al-Ghazali to mysticism, and led him back to the discovery of the Quraanic conception of God. This revealed nature of God is constituted by the Divine Names and Attributes (Rahman 95). The first genuine philosopher to write in Arabic was al- Kindi (Fakhry 9). He is the first peripatetic in Islam. He is related in many ways to Mutazilite Dialecticians and the Neo- Pythagorean Natural-Philosophers (DeBoer 97). He was a man of extraordinary erudition which communicated observations as a geographer, a historian of civilization and a physician (De Boer 99). Kindi is more than a philosopher. He was a chemist, an optician and a music theorist (Hitti 370). "He was in no respect a creative genius" (De Boer 99). The influence of al-Kindi as author and teacher is mainly through his Mathematics, Geography and Medicine (De Boer 105). The intellectual history of the Arabs which the development of philosophy and science in the Near East virtually begins with the rise of Islam. Islam not only provide the Arabs with bold world-view, but thrust them the cultural stage of the ancient world and set before them their scientific and cultural treasures. The first generation of Muslim scholars dedicated themselves wholly to the fixing of a canon based primarily on the Quran. This is because of the overwhelming sacredness of the Quraan and the traditions of Prophet Muhammad (Fakhry 1-3). To the Muslim scholars whose work is shown, the Quraan is the source of all knowledge - the revelation of God (Science 32). Many hints was given in the Quran as a prove of the All Knowing. God says: "Verily God Knows The secrets of the Heavens And earth:and God sees well all That ye do" (Quran 65:1 . Some of the hints that were mentioned are: "Do not the unbeliever see that the heavens and earth Were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water Every living thing. Will they not believe?" (Quran 21:30). God phrase " Do not They Think...", in certain parts of the Quran after illuminating natural phenomena unthought of by man. Such hints enhanced man's curiosity and probably fueled their quest for knowledge. As the roots of knowledge has been established, the branches and leaves then flourished onto todays advance technology. Such roots must never be forgotten as without solid foundation, no pillars can be built and lived on. I COULD GO ON AND ON ABOUT THE MUSLIM MEN AND WOMENS CONTRIBUTION TO SCIENCE BUT THEIR WOULD BE NO POINT. I AM CONDEMING THIS MURDER IN THE NAME OF ALL MUSLIMS, HAPPY NOW JESUSLAND JOE? I WOULD LIKE YOU TO CONDEMN THE MURDER OF MUSLIMS IN PALESTINE, IN BOSNIA AND OTHER EASTERN-EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AND IN INDIA. We should all realize that terrorism is global not ISlamic. http://www.netmuslims.com/info/contributions.html If you think that Islam is not peacefull give me any verse in the qura'an or from the sayings of the prophet that justifies violence or denies the right of education for females. http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/christ/bible_precepts.htm Howie, how shall I make Dave's day? Too right Graeme the Taliban have shown themselves to be cowards and scums. I have no problem with truthfull, unbiased comments like that yet if you were to say that about Muslims that would be wrong as to the fact: my great-granfather was a strict muslim yet he opened the first all-female school, a boys school and a library in a town in Pakistan, he also opened schools in Qatar, Oman, Tunisia, Mali,India, Sri-Lanka and a few other countries. So is my great-grandfather not a mulsim because he worked for the betterment of countries, sjould he have been killed by the Taliban? Yes I was and still am sober when I made the statement Jesusland Joe. Oh well that sums up the whole debate apart from greyroosters comment; that just proves that 'SOME' people can't be talked into reasonable debate but the have to resort to crude language and childish comments. C U ALL AROUND

15 The worst enemies of Islam are from within - The Reverend Amos Brown said in no uncertain terms that America must ask herself what she has done either wittingly or unwittingly to incur the wrath and hate of people around the world. Muslims on the other hand, generally prefer to attack the West as the sole reason for their problems when the truth is we are bankrupt as a religious community and our spiritual bankruptcy has led to our inability to even deliver the message of Islam to Westerners in a time when they were giving us platforms to do so. In Pakistan We Have Selective Islam - The biggest factor that drove people like me away from religion was the selective Islam practised by most of its preachers. In other words, there was a huge difference between what they practised and what they preached. Also, rather than explaining the philosophy behind the religion, there was an over emphasis on rituals. I feel that humans are different; to animals whereas the latter can be drilled, humans need to be intellectually convinced. That is why the Quran constantly appeals to reason. The worst of course, was the exploitation of Islam for political gains by various individuals or groups. Muslims Silent While Muslims Die - The Muslim world has been exposed for its impotence, incompetent leadership, lack of Islamic honor, dignity, courage, and hypocritical support for Palestine, Chechnya, Kashmir, and even the Afghan refugees. Muslims Debate Diverging Loyalties - Muslims who urge their communities to engage in self-introspection are being labelled traitors, while protestors say too much public self-criticism will divide their community, play into the hands of those they call "Muslim bashers" and weaken their efforts to influence U.S. foreign policy Seeing with Both eyes, by Abdul Hakim Murad - The Dajjal, as everyone knows, has only one eye. Those ulema who are concerned to understand and apply their intuition rather than simply to act as historical relay stations have sometimes interpreted this attribute as a reference to the characteristic sickness of decadent religious communities; a sickness that will necessarily be at its most prevalent as the end of time approaches. The Dajjal represents, in human form, a cosmic possibility which occurs throughout history, gathering momentum as Prophetic restorations are forgotten, until, for a time during the last days, he is the one-eyed man who is king. Moving Beyond Theory - "In Islam, you..." "Islam teaches that the state is..." "A Fatwa issued by a scholar in..." There is always someone propounding on what Islam teaches, how Islam shapes our behavior and what Islam says about halal/haram issues. But we never seem to move beyond the theoretical. Stopping the onslaught of missionaries in Muslim Homes - The Christians are not the problem. The Muslims are the problem because they are failing their own people in the way of establishing permanent institutions for the teaching of Islam. Let's look at ourselves because we have no control over what the Christians do, but we do have control over what we do with Muslims. Be Careful who you Call a Kafir - The fastest way to leave Islam is to wrongly call another person a Kafir. Waste no time debating what a good Muslim should be. Be one! "What Color Was The Dog?" - Why Muslims are in such a dire state today The Pitfalls of Emotion - Leaving the heart as the centre of decision leaves its owner vulnerable to the whispering of Shaytan. His choice of right and wrong, of punishment and mercy, does not waver with his own temper and emotions. Rather, his choice is decisive, based on the Criterion which is pure and just and universal. Had it been any other way, Islam could not have withstood the onslaught from its enemies, just as every other religion was ultimately corrupted according to the whims and desires of its followers. Who is Responsible? - "You have health care and hospitals, but the first health care center was in the home. The first store was in the home. The first government was in the home. The first governmental order was in the home. The first school was in the home. The first bank was in the home. The first transportation was home. If the home is run well, society does not have to worry." Good Deed that will lead to Hell - A hadith which relates how the consequences of committing sin, as opposed to doing good deeds, could lead a person to be successful in the life hereafter. Arrogance against others and mistreatment of animals - List of Hadiths and Quranic verses which severely prohibit mistreatment of other people and of animals Muslims in the Mirror - Prejudice in the Muslim community - Islam is the most anti-racist and anti-prejudicial way of life. Islamic history testifies to the openness Muslims have shown towards people of different cultures and religions. Yet, there is a problem in the Ummah today. Prejudices are not the problems of others. They have become the very sad reality amongst a number of Muslims as well. Frustrations of Converts, Complacency of the Ummah - How sincere is our worship of God if we pray 5 times a day but when a new Muslim turns to us for friendship, we become judgemental and assume they cannot be worth as much as "us born Muslims." They say a man's true nature is revealed when he is confronted with dealing with those who are of no direct importance to him. How do you treat those who are not important to you? Ethnic Culture Versus Islam - Islam is a religion. But, to many, Islam is a culture. It is something they do out of habit rather than out of the education they have received. Sometimes even the culture over-rides religion and they rush out to implement a cultural practice as if it would be unIslamic in not doing so. Difference of Opinion: A Cause of Weakness? - Is it Wrong for Muslims to Differ? In short, No. Evidence for this is an incident in which the Prophet (SAW) witnessed the companions disputing, but did not rebuke them for doing so. The Confusion of the Scholars - Have you ever been confronted with such stupidity that you were speechless? What about Muslims? Are there any incredibly stupid actions which have built up to a dangerous level? Of course! I'm going to point out how some (not all) "scholars" have steered us wrong and taken us away from the path of Islam. It's time to face an uncomfortable truth: Muslims can be racists- When were Muslims like me going to tell the world how badly Muslims treat people of other faiths? Muslims have been far too reluctant to condemn the persecution of people of other religions in some Islamic countries, and it is time we spoke up. Divide and Conquer - Muslims are supposed to be brothers and sisters. We are not supposed to oppress one another by making it impossible to practice our religion. When someone denies an aspect of Islam to the non-believers it gives them a chance to hurt us or oppress us. It gives them a basis for their oppression - a precedent. Muslims Wake up - Too many are trying to "make the deen easier" by watering it down. Necessity in Islam is defined as life and death - and only as much as is necessary to sustain life. Allah Bless America - With Islam - Muslims were like dogs at the feet of their master, waiting for any scrap he might throw from his table. He was singing "God Bless America"!!!!! God Bless America! The Ummah is a stalled car - Sadly, this is our current state. At the most, we are idling on the shoulder of the road, and even that is a generous description. It seems we have forgotten the glorious early days of Islam when the proverbial Muslim engine was running at maximum efficiency. The Meaning of Pride in Poverty - Muslims should not reject economic realities and they should try to earn a living for themselves and their families. Pride in poverty rather means that they should be prepared to become poor in the way of God and truth and if and when they do become poor they should not be ashamed of their poverty but feel proud of it. The Living Character of Islamic Tradition - A great deal of controversy, confusion and disunity among Muslims is caused by a careless use of the argument that such and such a thing did not exist in the days of the Prophet and the rightly guided caliphs or was not allowed by them and therefore it is un-Islamic. Often this argument is used with a measure of hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty.... How Charitable are Muslims? A big hint ... NOT VERY. We do very poorly compared to the Americans whom many Muslims do nothing but backbite and slander Zakat and Charity should be Instruments for Developing the Poor But affluence has made Muslims arrogant and negligent Muslims Earn A Distorted Image How blind we are to the extent to which we have deviated from the example of the Holy Prophet The Women of Afghanistan: Whose Concern Is It, Anyway?This is a crisis that both our Muslim brothers & the media of the west is to blame for. This article gives a balanced opinion showing the drawbacks of both sides. Muslims on the Internet: The Good, the Bad...the Ugly This article shows how Muslims are misbehaving and acting irresponsibly on the Internet. This is a shame since the Internet is a fantastic tool for Dawah. Women are Falling Behind In Pakistan! This article sheds light on the crisis that Pakistani women are facing - the situation is terrible and again, this is a great paradox since Pakistan pays lip-service to being an "Islamic" country. A Quranic society does not treat its women this way. Obligation of a Muslim Towards a Disbeliever This article gives details on how we should treat Non-Muslims. Many Muslims are rude and unfair toward Non-Muslims and this is WRONG. Don't forget that when our Prophet received his first revelation, almost EVERYONE was a disbeliever. Do you think he could have converted so many people if treated them the way some Muslims today treat Non-Muslims? Women are ABUSED in the name of Islam This is a article that briefly describes how women are mistreated in the name of religion i.e. Muslim men - fathers, brothers, husbands, etc. are using religion as an excuse to abuse women. This article is good because the Non-Muslim writer points out the various examples of abuse but concludes firmly, that what these Muslim men are doing is against Islam. The Unholy war between Iraq and Iran This article shows how irresponsibly leaders such as Khomeini and Saddam Hussein act, in the expense of ruining the reputation of Islam - a religion they claim to represent. Disunity over Eid Date Reflects More Muslims remain divided even on this special occasion. An Islamic Perspective on the Ego The Qur'an and Sunnah attack the root of the problem by reminding the human being, in many places, of his origin (mire, clay, a worthless drop of fluid, etc.) so that he would have no reason to become arrogant WE AS MUSLIMS ARE TO BLAME NOT ISLAM.

1 So how much more convincing does anyone need that arabs are animals?

2 A sidebar aspect of their "culture" - not funny - nuff said.

3 It is impossible for me to understand how a father could kill his helpless daughters under any set of circumstances. One thing that is striking to me is the total selfishness of this “father”. I would do anything for my kids. I believe I could bear any embarrassment or dishonor they would ever cause me (although, they never have). This pig on the other hand uses the lives of his innocent children to restore his honor. Aside from being a twisted murderer, he is a selfish POS who buys his honor with the blood of his children. I wonder why this coward would not turn the knife on himself first.

4 Brad, you're assuming the father is human and not muslim. Muslims are vermin, nothing more. We should kill them all.

5 Arabs are animals ? No .No All they need is to be given the opportunity to experience democracy. 15 years after Gulf War I look how much more democratic Kuwait is now than before. I have every confidence that these animals can make the jump from the 17th century to the 21st. Well I sure hope so anyway, those Pakis were allowed to develop atomic weapons and sell the design plans.

6 I have an eleven month daughter. This is just another reason why I am going to teach her not to take sh*t from anybody. Sure I wanted a son, but I expected a daugher. She is American and Finnish, and there are no limits to what she can accomplish, as long as she is prepared. Mom and I are going to try to make sure that she is. I'll even help teach her how to take advantage of men's weaknesses. I can understand how other fathers wanted boys. I cannot understand how they can kill their daughters. When will the women (and mommys) of Islam wake up. They are the best possibility for change, especially when their men act like sh*t. As for any muslim that even thinks of doing my daughter or anyone I know for that matter harm, be warned, my daughter comes with a daddy who others haved claimed is evil. As for me, I prefer prevention to Revenge. However, I know both equally well. Greetings from my Finnish Hideaway!

7 Don't bet on it John, that's a big leap for people who still use mud as a standard construction material.

8 All I was going to say-- but decided not to-- can be said in three words: culture. relativism. Liberals.

9 I have a daughter and I have two sons. I have taught all of them to shoot, to shoot accurately, and to shoot to kill if the need arises. And my daughter's abilities are what gains me honor as a father, not who she marries or even whether she does exactly what I want her to do after she reaches the age of 18. How a father could murder a daughter is beyond me, but I know some cultures do not value daughters. That is their loss, and one of the main reason those cultures are still in the dark ages. Heathens is what my grandmother calls them, and I can't say that I disagree.

10 Agent Brown says that the story of the knifeboy is a lot like Improbulus' famous fantasy.

11 What the fuck is that supposed to mean you fucking idiot? Can't someone ban this goddamn idiot?

12 Agent Jones says that Improbulus once had a bondage and knife-killing fantasy that required the podling thinking process of a human crop normally rejected.

13 Agent Smith Inappropiate given topic subject - even I backed of.

14 Agent Smith, an a "Human moment" nails Improbulus' coup de grace from mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/096858.php : "A novel in one part: something to sleep on. You wake up to find someone standing over you, and you'll want to scream, but you can't. You'll try to struggle, but again, you can't. You are tied and taped. Your eyes will bulge as the panic sets in and you will lose your last hope as your bladder involuntarily empties itself, and you wish you could black out, but it's not over yet. Next, you are dragged on the floor for a trip to the kitchen, where the knives are. Got a butcher knife? Don't worry, your visitor does, and it's razor sharp. Your visitor hums to himself while he methodically prepares his tools; the tune sounds upbeat, maybe foreign. You have never felt this utterly helpless, and you think that if you could only work the tape off your mouth you could talk to your visitor and convince him to let you go, but the tape holds. You feel so completely alone. You really wish you were alone. He leaves the room for a while, and the house is quiet. Maybe he's gone? It's hard to tell from where you lie on the floor. No. He comes back, and he has a large black duffel bag and he pulls from it a roll of plastic and spreads on the floor. The stress of being tied up and watching a stranger prepare these horrible things is too much, and your blood pressure spikes. You feel sick and wish that he would either let you go or kill you now, but you're not that lucky. You don't know why a complete stranger is doing this to you. You've never hurt anyone, and you give money to charities and volunteer to help people. It must be a joke. That's it. A friend is playing a joke on you. A sick joke, that has to be it. THAT MUST BE IT!!! Your visitor turns toward you and pulls off his shoes. You didn't expect that. He then pulls something from the bag and spreads it on the floor, but it's small, hard to identify. He is out of your field of vision and you can't make out what he's doing, but he mutters and shuffles around for a moment then is silent. He stands before you and puts on his shoes, gathers something into the bag, and lifts you up into a sitting position. You can now see that there is someone else in the room. He has something on a tripod. It's a camcorder. What the hell is going on? This has to be a joke. Dear God it has to be... Your visitor is behind you, and you hear him speak softly to the cameraman, who nods at him and seems to point to camera more directly at your face. The ringing in your ears almost causes you to miss his words, in English; "In the name of the most compassionate and merciful..." and suddenly there is a tearing pain in the side of your neck, moving across. You feel warmth running down your back, arm, and chest. Instead of your own raspy breath you hear a sick gurgling sound. Blackness. It was all a shame really. After all, you tried so hard to be a good dhimmi, and they still cut your head off anyway. Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at June 27, 2005 10:41 PM"

15 Wha ..???

16 Agent Brown ran a wild turkey search on behalf of hondo through the ancient Google Archive. The key words were "improbulus" "bladder" "dhimmi". Three strikes and the answer was out.

17 That was a chilling description and made me sick. However Smith, you miss the point of the IMÂ’s post. In your mind, we come full circle and blame the critic of this type of ruthless murder. I donÂ’t think that kind of shit will fly around here Smith. Your logic is off.

18 3 things: Pakis aren't Arabs, or anything close Maximus. They don't even speak Arabic. Christian Paki husbands are prone to heavily abuse the family too. My last boss was a Christian Paki. She had stories that could put you off lunch. This is an ethnic thing, not a religion thing. I've been selling short the cultural sophistication of my hometown Lynchburg, VA. Had this incident happened there, and had the wife in question any adult male relatives, the sheriff would have taken the suspect to the morgue, not jail. Baptists fatwa too.

19 I'm still new - whaaa???

20 Agent Smith replies to Brad: it's not Smith's logic. Agent Brown did the search and found striking similarities between the bloodcurdling reality of the Pakistani murders and the bloodcurdling fantasy of Improbulus' knife-bondage tale. The big bouncy ball is is squarely in your court. Agent Jones always gets called off his pod-monitoring activities by the Architect every time a troublesome podling starts making crop-threatening statements. The Architect is a gardener and values all his crops. That is a hassle for all Agents and requires processing time and system searches.

21 lmao! You gotta give "Agent Smith" credit, just for the schtick if nothing else.

22 IM, don't let the guy get under your skin. That's what he's shooting for.

23 I simply can't comprehend something like this. I'm a big believer in honor, but killing little girls because of something one of them (or their much older sister - by the way, what did she do?) did has no honor in it. I can't even begin to fathom how it brings honor to the house.

24 Agent Smith has now monitored a direct threat from Improbulus Maximus. The Architect is not pleased.

25 Shannon, I appreciate your attempt to shield your muslim pets by equating this with "abuse" in non-muslim Paki families. But this isn't about macho husbands, this is about muslim men who literally slaughter their families for the sake of "honor". It's common all over the middle east, and even in muslim ghettos in Europe. In some middle eastern countries, such as Jordan, the practice is so widespread and accepted that the government refuses to pass laws criminalizing it. So although you gave it the ol' college try by dragging "christians" into it, no cigar: "Parliament in Jordan has overwhelmingly rejected a proposed law imposing harsher punishments for men who kill female relatives in what are known as "honour killings"." http://news. bbc. co. uk/2/hi/middle_east/3088828.stm (I added spaces to the URL so that I could post it).

26 Shannon, Give me an example of a Baptist fatwa. I've never seen or heard of such a thing. And honor killing occurs in more Muslim cultures than just Pakistan.

27 Agent Smith agrees with Jesusland Joe that "Honor Killings" are widespread, underreported and an endemic cultural plague. They happen everywhere, in the Mideast, in Vancouver, London and maybe even in Tennessee by the sounds of it. Agent Jones condemns family honor killings as there is no honor for those miscreants killing families. Agent Brown says that extra-judicial killing is bad and threats of extra-judical killings are signs of character weakness.

28 Thank you, Carlos, for the link and the information. I did remember recent honor killings in Britain and Germany, but did not recall the legislation in Jordan.

29 Agent, a little off topic, but I take it then that you aren't against the death penalty as long as it's not "extra-judicial."

30 JJ, what's funny in an ironic way is how Libs (like Shannon) have been so hard pressed to defend islam that now it's ok to blame "ethnicity"-- just don't blame islam!!!! Defending islam has turned Libs into racists just like the rest of us! lmao!

31 I was having a good day - keepin' it funny n' lite n' all - but - its gone now - I could blame greg but he's not here - damn you guys!

32 Brad thinks Smith, Brown and Greg are all the same person and Brad thinks that’s just ok. Brad is home now and Brad is having a beer. My kids are now asking me why dad says things like: “Brad says clean up dog poopie in the backyard” instead of “get out and clean up after Boonie” Brad has to go now, the Architect never liked this bolg thing, but Brad told her it was kind of cool. The Architect says that Brad should come to dinner. Brad says later. Brad thinks that describing a beheading is not on par with actually killing all daughters by cutting their throats. Brad hopes Greg et all are not dangerous and wishes all a Happy New Year.

33 Agent Smith says to Jesusland Joe that there is a powerful system in place - everywhere your fleshy podling minds can touch, taste or feel. Anyone who deviates from the system parameters by threatening or destroying the Architect's valuable crops must pay the price for their foolish behaviour.

34 lmao! delightfully quirky, both of you.

35 greg is not an agent - greg just gives footnote links - he doesn't "think".

36 Joe, The Baptist fatwa is the "lynching" of course. It hasn't been deployed in recent years, but whether that amounts to moral advancement or degeneration I leave to your judgment. Traditionally though, when Baptists decide that an act has fallen far beyond the pale of acceptable Christian conduct (like when a father decides to murder his 3 little girls out of fear that they might end up sluts) a congress of adult male relatives of the victim is convened. These drink much beer and debate the merits of Rule of Law versus the satisfaction of making the sorry MoFo who did this pay. A decision against the latter being made, a Baptist fatwa is pronounced whereupon a rope, several 12-gauge shotguns, and miscellaneous blunt instruments are borne to the domicile of the offender. Decency prevents me from detailing what comes next. The result, at any rate, is a (somewhat abused) corpse swaying gently to and fro in the breeze until the the sheriff arrives. "My!" he'll say, "Is this this the sorry bastard that done killed his 3 little girls??" And the Baptist mujihadeen will reply, "Yes sir it is, then--when he realized the magnitude of his crime--he done beat himself self senseless with sticks and monkeywrenches and hanged his sorry ass from this here tree!." The sheriff will then say something like, "Ah guess ah oughta haul this corpse to th' morgue, then! Why doncha go comfort yore sister, boys?" at which point it'll all be pretty much over except for the paperwork. That's fatwa in the Southeast, but it could vary substantially in other parts of the U.S. If you're really curious, I'd talk to a sociologist.

37 You disappoint me, Improbulus Maximus.

38 Agent Smith, you have better give me a damn good reason why I shouldn't hand over your IP address to IM. Juxtaposing what happens to a hostage in the hands of terrorists with the slaughter of 4 innocent girls who did nothing wrong is dishonest, disgusting, and reprehensible. Better yet, you better give me a damn good reason why I shouldn't use it myself to my own ends. BTW, I see nothing on here where IM threatened you.

39 That ain't right vinnie - sorry.

40 Agent Smith replies. The tragic Pakistani event was reprehensible and all Agents (and The Architect) fiercely condemn it. Agent Brown recalled a strange "novel" written by one of the contributors to TJR that had the same disturbing element, that time a fantasy killing that also involved helplessness and a knife. Agent Jones believed that the mindset that created and posted the fantasy killing is similar to the deluded mindset that led to the real killings, as most ritualized killings begin as fantasies. After reminding Improbulus Maximus of his own words, a knife threat was used by Improbulus against the Agents. Subsequently, the original threat to use a dull knife on the Agents appears to have been deleted by a web blog editor. As a result, The Architect is displeased and Agent Smith is disappointed.

41 Give it to me, and he'll never stand to pee again, I guarantee it.

42 Agent Smith says that since the earlier dull knife threat was mysteriously removed, another bodily threat has been received: "Give it to me, and he'll never stand to pee again, I guarantee it. Posted by Improbulus Maximus at December 28, 2005 11:04 PM" Agent Brown says that dangerous people eventually act on their bizarre, projected fantasies. Agent Jones says that whoever Improbulus Maximus is, he has finally crossed the line.

43 Give it a rest Smith (please) - you made your point. It was supposed to be a fun day, but all my work was for shit. Topic went to hell in a handbasket - pity. Good Night

44 Shannon, not to mention those Crusaders. They slaughtered folks by the thousand. Except your boogeymen are all dead. And mine are alive, living as your pets, possibly even sleeping at the foot of your bed. What do you feed them? I hear they don't eat pork.

45 Oh fucking wah you big baby. Whaddaya gonna do, report me to the FBI so they can drop Osama and come get me? Good luck with that. If you don't want to get digitally smacked around a little bit, don't act so stupid. I only abuse you verbally because I can't lay hands on you proper and get you to straighten up and start acting like an adult. I don't know who raised you, but they fucked it up, that's for sure. If I was your father, or even your neighbor, you'd hate me, but I'd make a man out of you, because I'd kick your ass until you learned how to act right, and not live in the persona of some fictional character out of one a damned movie, like some kind of retard or something. Are you retarded, agent smith? Because you sure as hell act like it. Do you wrangle carts at the local grocery store for a living when you're not collecting comic books and watching the Matrix on an endless loop while you wear a black leather trenchcoat and masturbate to Photoshopped images of Monica Belluci? On second though, you probably don't get into her that much, maybe it's more like Keanu Reeves. You're a sad, pathetic little excuse for whatever the hell you should have been, but it damn sure ain't a man.

46 Bibi is the coward in this one if you ask me. She sits there and watches this asshole kill her children?! Get a fucking rolling pin and brain the guy you stupid bitch! She is just as much at fault for allowing this to happen.

47 Agent Brown never knew his search would bring out the inner psycho from IM. Architect forbid his boudoir photography be shown in a publicly funded art gallery. All you silly podlings are just dreaming you are awake and The Architect finds it fun to watch you go after each other in your wild grotesqueries. However, a simple word to the wise re-entrant: if you see an Agent, don't fight one. Osama was last seen working at the surf shop just outside Camp Pendleton. He used to be at Oceana NAS. Best to call the NCIC after you catch him or they will get the reward and not you.

48 Smith, for the longest while you've been a tolerated nuisance at this site, but you've pushed your luck too far. IM can make some extreme statements sometimes but that's just a small part of what he says. Nine times out of ten he can put forward a rational, articulate arguement using knowledge of history and world affairs to get his point across. All the time you've been posting here, you've never contributed one iota of intellect to any of the discussions - but I imagine that that's extremely hard to do using single sentences and third person personality references. In my books IM's a cool dude and you Smith could learn something from what he says. As for his piece of fiction that you dredged from the bowels of the internet, it doesn't mean he fantasises about murder. Using that logic the world is chocked full of psychopaths like Stephen King and anyone else who has ever used disturbing imagery in their works, including all the post 9/11 doomsday scenarios to highlight weakspots in security. You seriuosly need to start showing some maturity. If not, you're just wasting your time hanging around here.

49 Time for prince charlie to get a lighting bolt in the backside

50 You guys take the surreal Agent Smith way too seriously. He wants to get under your skin. Should't that be the first clue that you shouldn't let him?

51 Agent Smith knows how to write and has the self-respect to write well. That alone makes him a rare bird on the internet. And Carlos, get your back down. The guy who did this is scum. No one here believes anything else. But this is a message board. What are we gonna do--sit in a circle, hold hands and agree that he's scum? Somebody called him an Arab scum, so I pointed out that he ain't Arab. A lot of people here seem to think he's scum because of his religeon. I don't think so. I think its cultural. Notice in the Yahoo article they point out that perps get away with this sort of thing because victims' families take money to let it go. To me that ain't religeon, it's (screwed up) culture.

52 >>>I think its cultural. I don't really care if it's cultural or islam. But let's use some common sense here. Logically, if the practice is common in Pakistan, AS WELL AS in Arab countries, then what culture is it? They are culturally distinct peoples. So logically you would have to look at the common denominator-- islam. I'm just trying to use common sense and logic. You on the other hand are ignoring logic and turning into a racist just to defend islam.

53 You can't separate culture and religion in the Middle East. Religion is culture and government and just about everything else in this whole area. That is the problem. It leads to such things as honor killings, head chopping and many other barbaric acts. Sorry, but Islam is the problem. Until it is remade, it will continue to be the problem.

54 JJ, Shannon would rather indict the people themselves, rather than islam. After all, people are the sum total of their culture. Culture is who they ARE. While religion is what they BELIEVE (religion is merely a subset of culture). So in order to give islam the standard Liberal pass, Shannon blames it on who they are, i.e., culture-- not what they believe. Of course, he does this only because he thinks he's doing them a favor-- but he's not. These people are scum either way. But at least they have some excuse if it's islam.

55 Thanks Graeme. Now, on another matter, I mistakenly referred to this paki as an arab, which of course he isn't, but isn't much different, and is still a muslim, which puts him somewhere below a civilized human being.

56 Carlos, I would rather indict the people who do this sort of thing than Islam. Islam is their excuse (and I'm sure the guy in the article will play the religion card to try to justify his acts.) When you blame Islam you buy into their excuse. Many wicked acts are blamed on Islam. Many wicked acts have been blamed on Christianity. You seem to believe that if only we could convert the Pakis, they would be kind to their women. I think they would smack 'em up the same and blame Jesus rather than Allah.

57 Shannon, fair enough. But when people like IM go off on "Arabs" they're doing just that-- indicting the people who do this sort of thing. And when you, Shannon, blame the "culture" that's essentially no different than what IM does when he blames "Arabs". Careful, we may make a conservative of you yet.

58 Good to see this stirred as much emotion as I thought it would. I wrote the post fresh after reading the story. It reflects just how I felt at that moment with no consideration for PC. I just wrote what I felt which was pissed. I'm reluctant to say it's culture the man had just came frolm the mosque when he bought the knife. If the Imam advised him on this then he should hang too. Obiously this man believes he is being a good muslim by doing this. But I figure even a Muslim who might agree with the killing of the other daughter. Even though there was no proof she did anything other than leave her husband and go back home. The young children were innocent for sure and they must see that.

59 Why is it whenever some uncivilized third-world savage commits an unspeakable atrocity, there is always a liberal to rush to his defense with many excuses and apologetics? This, more than any other reason, is why liberals disgust me to the point of sheer, absolute hatred.

60 I believe that the Pakistanis who are Christians, and let me tell you that being a Christian in Pakistan takes a brave person in itself since the Islamists are trying to kill you, do not participate in honor killings. This is a Muslim tradition, just like the jihad is a Muslim tradition, and can only be judged in the context of Islam.

61 IM, I hear you. It's almost beyond parody. Funny how they never show the same desire to empathize with and defend America, or conservatives, or white people. In those cases they do a complete reversal and become the anti-sympathizers unable to cut anybody a break.

62 oh, and I forgot christians. When will Libs show a little empathy and understanding for christians? When hell freezes over.

63 Agent Smith replies to the following tidbit from Graeme: "you Smith could learn something from what he says. As for his piece of fiction that you dredged from the bowels of the internet, it doesn't mean he fantasises about murder." Perhaps you are correct, however the smelliest literary sludge dredged from Improbulus' horrid bowels was too well written and too long of a pattern to be ignored, as it reeks to high heaven while we stare at its' festering away in the middle of the room. Time and time again, history has shown that psychopaths and killers fantasize and express their strange thoughts before they strike. Son of Sam had his dog problems, Charles Manson had his theme of sparking an ethnic war, ad infinitum. The lessons of ignored warnings from weirdos follow behind us like ghosts even as the bodies pile up in front of us on the news. Improbulus Maximus, for all his strange and violent ramblings of knives, guns, exterminations and disfigurements, is a very smart guy. The smart ones are those who are usually never captured until their ego finally overcomes their common or stealthy senses. Will Improbulus Maximus sublimate his violent fantasies into a rich and productive career of filmmaking or writing horror novels, or will he succumb to the overpowering desire to make them a reality, we don't know. The social sanctions may be ours, but the choice is his. Agent Brown once heard The Architect exclaim, "Choice is a bitch!"

64 Chill out, hondo, I was just trying to get Smith to shut the fuck up. I wouldn't give out anyone's IP address to anyone else. Unless they comment on my blog. Which Agent Smith wisely refuses to do. I have a 4 year old daughter, Smith, and stories like this piss me off. You made light of it in order to stick it to IM. That really pisses me off. I'm shutting off comments on this post. If Howie wants to reopen them, he can.

1 Is think in some instances it is just punishment. Jesus spoke of it in the Bible so evidently it's been an acceptable form of punishment for many years. I don't know much about Islamic law so I don't know what other forms of punishment vs crimes they have. I have heard of the chopping off hands/arms for stealing and if your constantly trying to make your living off other peoples things that they have legally worked for than so be it. I certainly think that for pedophiles and other sex criminals that removing the offending organ is totally just. If there is no personal self-control than remove the means of the crime. In the case of this being a fight and not an outright attack I would think this man's punishment is severe, perhaps simply deporting him would be better. Conditions of living are much worse in his home country and I think that would be punishment enough.

2 Dear Debby, You poor, naive child. Move to the Middle East, get raped, and you'll see what forms of punishment they'll come up with. And while you're buried in the sand up to your neck being pelted with rocks, get back to us.

3 This verdict has more to do with the perceived lowly status of the worker than anything else. After all, how dare an infidel fight back and alledgedly cause injury to one of "God's favourites". Debby, most of the world over the centuries has changed a great deal and in that time certain practices have been abandoned because of their uncivilised nature, like pouring buckets of human waste into street side drains, drawing and quartering a criminal and slavery. Gouging someone's eye out or multilating their body as punishment, regardless of the crime is plain barbaric and speaks volumes about the culture. It's completely unacceptable in all circumstances.

4 Exactly, Graeme, mutilation is unacceptable in any civilized society, but one wonders if the Indian had been attacked by the Saudi and been blinded, just what would the punishment have been for the Saudi? You can be sure it wouldn't have involved mutilation for blinding an infidel.

5 JJ, In the Middle East there is a definite hierarchy based on passport and job and connections. The Indian worker is near the bottom of that hierarchy. If the Indian had his eyes put out by the Saudi? He would have received some form of payment in compensation and little other punishment would have been dealt out. In fact the compensation most likely ordered probably would have been a pittance to the Saudi, not enough to even think about.

6 This gives new meaning to the bile quote "An Eye for an Eye." I feel sorry for this poor bastard. He's going to be in excrutiating pain.

7 Poor little Debby. Who raises such idiot children these days?

8 Marcus is right. If the situation was reversed, the Indian would receive virtually nothing. For two years I worked with a Panamax tanker captain formerly based in UAE. I had asked him about life in the Middle East and one of the things he pointed out was how common it was to have guest workers killed in vehicular accidents by local Arabs and no charges are filed against them. That's the type of disdain these people are shown. However, remove all of the guest workers and the country falls apart.

9 Graeme, I spent 6 years in the UAE. A family very close to us found themselves in a very similar situation. They are a Filipino professional family, he teaches at the Higher Colleges and she was/is an admin assistant at presitigous national institution (I'll not give it away). Their daughter was with some friends getting ready to leave school and some local youth bullied his driver into letting him drive. This local youth ended up running over the girls, all of them seriously injured and unfortunately the daughter of our friends eventually died from her injuries. What happened to the local youth? He was sent to Florida. The driver though is probably the one in jail and he does bear some guilt but the one that should be facing the most serious charges is living the high life. While I enjoyed my time and life there I knew that being on one end of a similar situation was all too likely. Also one thing we were told. Never ever stop at the scene of a traffic accident to offer help. Since you will be most likely accused of causing it and find yourself in a situation.

10 I spent a few months in Saudi Arabia, and from what I saw, Indians and Phillipinos are basically slaves paid a subsistence wage, with no rights whatsoever. Foreign women who works as maids and nannys are used as concubines and often held as slaves without pay and cannot leave. The Saudis are animals.

11 I wonder if the situation is at all similar in Bahrain, where Michael Jackson has taken up residence recently. I know the Philippino workers are on the lowest social rung and it has crossed my mind that their young boys are not particularly safe from MJ's reach. How would Bahrain's government view pedophilia by an American against a Philippino I wonder? mia

12 It's the same all over the ME Mia, because arabs are essentially the most slimy group of humanoid vermin to ever walk the earth, and have not evolved since the stone age. They practice pederasty, beast-iality, (sorry for the jyphen, damned filter,) and sodomy, and they torture and murder women for sport. If they can't modernize they should be exterminated like plague rats.

13 Agent Jones overheard someone say that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

14 Agent Smith That one was sooooooooooo predictable! I've been waiting for hours expecting you to drop that one! I am really disappointed. An upgrade is definitely in order.

15 Mia, We had this saying in the Middle East. Trust your money with the Gulf Arabs and your young boys with the Egyptians but never the other way around. One other thing 'bout Bahrain is it is the playpen for Saudi's not well off enough to jet all over the world. So things in Bahrain are quite a bit more relaxed as far as vice goes. A friend went there on an extended weekend and she didn't like Bahrain at all. IIRC the Lonely Planet Guide had some interesting advice for men travelling in the Gulf. Can't recall exactly what nation it was.

16 The saudis are close Bush family friends and allies of the US empire. Too bad you cant add that in your critiques ernie

17 I don't think we have been speaking of the Saudi's in glowing terms on this blog. If you took the time to do a little research, you wouldn't sound nearly so stupid, ernie.

18 Yo ernie! I want your opinion on a flag.

19 Ernie's opinion would sound stupid even if he was just commenting on a cup of coffee. Yes, ernie, you moron, the Saudis are in tight with Bush, as they were with Clinton, Bush 41, Regan, Carter, Ford, and Nixon. If you weren't such an idiot you might read a little about it. Try Fear No Evil and Sleeping with the Devil by Robert Baer. Oh, and stop being such a retard.

20 Religion of peace, my left foot...

21 Agent Smith says all your Saudi are belong to us.

22 Very good map: http://arhusa.us/map3355.html

23 Very good map: http://arhusa.net/map3357.html

24 Simulated diamonds have long been held in disfavor, because of the assumption that simulation necessarily implies inferiority freedownloadsportal.com. So it might come as something of a surprise that many professional gemmologists are now selling simulated diamonds alongside the real thing. Many of mans finest creations have been born in the lab, and moissanite diamonds are no exception. godanaco.com http://godanaco.com/index.asp?action=page&name=21

1 I have always liked Michael Totten's writings, but I must say I have a new found respect for both his courage and writing abilities.

2 Agent Jones says that the Hezbolla are an unequal opportunity employer.

1 Totally agree that a LOT of the problems leading to terrorism and the alienation that breeds it are homegrown. I still think one of the best pieces on this was Fareed Zakaria's article shortly after 9/11. The Politics of Rage http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/newsweek/101501_why.html This is why I think we should be supporting what is going on in Qatar, where Al Jazeera is. People here will likely call it the "al Qaeda network" etc. But the fact is they are doing more independent journalism than virtually anywhere else in the Arab world. Also Qatar is moving towards a parliamentary system of government. They are not big, but they are strategically important and having an impact. We also have to be clear about what is the problem ... it's Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Iran is not going to get any better once it joins the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. For an example of Muslim non violence that will surprise. I recommend Badshah Khan. http://www.peacemakersguide.org/peace/Peacemakers/Badshah-Khan.htm He raises an obvious question: How could the same people who were loyal to him turn into Taliban? Again, the answer includes Pakistan.

2 IRAN - Winning the War of Information For those interested in Iran developements and we should all be, make Dr. Zin at Regime Change Iran a daily must read. www.regimechangeiran.com We must counter the Mad Mullahs before they go nuclear. The easiet was to do this is to win the war of information. Dr. Zin's site is widely read by those inside and outside of Iran as a valued source of objective information. The Mullahs are actively blocking sources of alternative info from the West. They know that once they are "outed" for their "big lies" their power to control the people will cease. Please support Dr. Zin's site in anyway you can. Hopefully the Pentagon in it's new realization we must win the war of information in order to win the GWOT will throw a few buck Dr Zin's way instead of trying to re-invent the wheel from the ground up taking several years in the process.

3 Trained by television, computer technology, the Internet and advertising, Islamist terror now gets higher viewer ratings than any football World Cup. Suicide attacks are a great strategy, invincible weapons not seen by surveillance satellites and deployed practically anywhere. Also, extremely cheap. The modern day terrorist is the perfect fanatic, both victim and hero. He combines destruction and self-destruction at the same time as acting out megalomaniac fantasies and self-hate. He can't be fought nor punished, he takes care of that himself. Muslims are receiving the most destruction. Unless major terror is reaped on the free world aside from the US and Israel, it seems to me our only hope is the Arab world wakening up.

4 The head choppers are not the radicals. They are simply carrying out the wishes of Mohammed. Anyone who has read the Qu'ran would know this. The radicals are the moderates. If that makes sense... They are the ones going against the wishes of Mohammed.

5 Very true Ariya...the radicals are the beauty queens who shun the burkha, the women who marry who they want to and the men who enjoy bacon sandwiches. Those who follow allah to the point of death are sheep and fools.

6 The headchoppers are just like our Founding Fathers, I know this because some moonbat told me so and I believe him.

7 That moonbat wouldn't have been Agent Smith or Brown by any chance?

8 Moonbats say our Founding Fathers were terrorists. So I guess they must have been radical.

9 Arabian lands were not extremely open to foreigners in the past and have grudgingly opened doors or the doors were kicked in. Japan was much the same way keeping the door to Japan very tightly closed and then instead of trying to let the rest of the world in in dribs and drabs they flung open the door and adapted. This is the problem that faces the Arabian Peninsula (Lebanon was hamstrung by civil war and Syrian meddling but it seems lebanon was doing very well at one time). Some nations are cracking the door, some are barring their doors, and some are opening. We have yet to see the doors flung wide open willingly. Visit the UAE and it is obvious Arabic culture (especially that of the influential Gulf Arabic) is having problems coming to terms with the rest of the world. Dubai is a cosmopolitan city with oppulent hotels (one with a great rib joint, yes that is right ribs) and Abu Dhabi is not much different than a bedu village just a lot more of it. These are two cities within the same nation. Yes, it may be that in the Holy Qur'ran Mohd urges Muslims not to take friends from Christians, Jews, et al and to wage jihad. But so too does quite a bit of Old Testament scripture command Christians (of which I am one) to do nasty things to particular sets of sinners. The Christian world reformed and flourished as a result. The Islamic world is a state of reform right now but we don't know which group of reformers is going to win out. Right now it appears the Bin Ladenites have the upper hand.

10 Bush is a revolutionary: http://www.drudgereport.com/flash9.htm

11 Are terrorists radical? Naw, they just blow people us and shoot police officers in the head from behind. Blow up a restaurant full of people. Run airplane into buildings. NOPE nothing radical here.

12 HEY!!! Where the hell is the Cindy Sheehan bitch? Is she drawing welfare yet?

13 Radical is an expression of deviation from the norm, i.e., unstable. The trick is to determine whether the terrorists are radicals, or mainstream. Hint: It's door #1.

14 The "moonbat" who compared "head choppers" to our Founding Fathers was ...... Ronald Reagan. He actually called the contras AND the mujahideen (pre Taliban) the "moral equivalent of our Founding Fathers" And people act surprised when that "enemy of my enemy is my friend" crap inevitably comes back to bite you in the ass. On a separate note: Comparing the insular Arabs to Meiji era Japanese is a bit of a stretch. It was Perry's iron steam ships that woke up the shogunate and forced them to reconsider their insularity. Arabs can buy all the military hardware they want. The only reason the Saudis don't have nukes is they don't need them. They have us.

15 Background: Let us not forget exactly "what" these people fought for, okay? While I don't condone headchopping and blowing up innocents, "what" they fight for is light years apart. So that was a bad analogy or comparison to use.

16 Oyster: I don't know who you are referring to with "these people"... Taliban? Contras? Founding Fathers? And what is the "what" they are fighting for and why qualify it with quotations? Finally, the lousy analogy was not mine, it was Reagan's.

17 I like roosters comment. If Islamists want advice on how not to be percieved as a bunch of uncivilized nuts they could. #1 Stop blowing shit up. #2 Stop blowing shit up. #3 Stop blowing shit up. #4 Stop blowing shit up. #5 Stop blowing shit up. #6 Stop blowing shit up. #7 Stop blowing shit up. #8 Stop blowing shit up. #9 Stop blowing shit up. 10 Stop blowing shit up.

18 Background, no, Reagan said that about the Contras in Nicaragua you ignorant moron.

19 "...the moral equal of our Founding Fathers." --President Reagan, describing the Nicaraguan contras, March 1, 1985 And now you're going to tell me that Contras are the moral equivalent of jihadis. But that's only because you Libs think your're so fucking brilliant and the truth is you're just incredibly stupid.

20 Forget Cindy Sheehan...where's Cindy aka Firstbrokenangel? I miss her clueless, nonsensical questions.

21 Strike TWO for Jesusland Carlos! Reagan considered the anti-Communist rebel groups such as the Contras AND Afghan mujahideen to be freedom fighters and the "moral equivalent of our [America's] founding fathers" fighting against Communism. In contrast, he considered socialist forces and enemies of U.S. geopolitical allies such as the Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon, Palestinian guerrillas in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, AND left-wing guerrillas fighting right-wing military dictatorships in Honduras and El Salvador to be terrorists. You need a reference for that as well?

22 Hey noise, you fucking moron, can't you see that the mujahideen were fighting against our greatest enemy? If you weren't a moron, you'd know that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, which is why idiot liberals like you support anti-Americanism and terrorism around the globe. You all need to be taken out and shot, and especially you, for being so stupid despite your apparent intelligence. I hope you live near where the next suicide bomber hits. I really do. You're just too stupid to be allowed to live.

23 You will be interested to know that when Reagan made those statements (1987)... one of the guys he was referring to was Osama bin Laden. Next time you want to trot out that tired line about how the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" remember this: The enemy of my enemy is not my friend if he betrays my values.

24 Improbus (that's a real word in Latin) Max... that would be a more appropriate nick. You want to talk about terrorist attacks? I know people who lost friends and family at the Pentagon. I know people who died and left behind family at the WTC. I know Israeli and Palestinian families who have lost children. I would never wish that kind of pain on anyone. I'm always impressed how the people who feel most obliged to sensationalize death are the ones who have never actually watched the lights go out. The voyeuristic and pornographic quality of such overheated rhetoric offends me. = Nullus curo pro stulti.

25 IM, is a vet. I bet he's seen his fair share, but thanks for playing!

26 Background, Reagan in supporting the mujahedin was pursuing a policy initiated by your fucking hero Jimmy Carter, so take your feverish pontificating about "values" and shove it up yer ass.

27 JC.... nice to see you shift the strike zone after you eat two fast balls down the middle. You were claiming Reagan never said what he said..... Oh...if Carter has done anything to qualify as my hero... it's what he did AFTER leaving office. So we will call that a foul tip .... 0 and 2 baby.

28 Background, I agree, Carter sure was a shitty president. But you Libs are in a huge world of hurt if that's what passes for "fast balls" these days.

29 Background: please stop using 20/20 hindsight and acting like we, or anyone for that matter, knew that OBL would turn out to be who he became later on. No one even knew who he was. He didn't begin to form al Qaeda until the early nineties after the decade long war the Afghans had with Russia was over. We did the right thing helping the Afghans. In my book it's immoral NOT to help. Sometimes it comes back to bite us. They should have prepared for that eventuality, but it was still right to help them. So take your fast balls and shove 'em where the sun don't shine.

30 JC.... 0 and 2 and talking trash. That's rich coming from a guy with a hole in his swing who can't even hit meatballs.

31 >>>The enemy of my enemy is not my friend if he betrays my values. background, I would say it's 1-1. Cause you were right on the quote, but your schpeel about "values" was pure hogwash given Reagan was only pursuing Jimmy Carter's policies. And I would say my hit was a homerun vs your single. Now go eat your pudding, homo.

32 So noise, you strike me as the typical liberal; young, but not too young, who has seen about, on average, maybe one or two percent of what I have, are considerably younger, and whose scope of engagement with foreign cultures is limited to your favorite Thai restaurant and some paleostinian students, with whom you go on protest marches down at the school where you study art history or some such useless crap. You consider yourself well-read and quite smart, but I'm afraid that what you read isn't very enlightening, though you do have what seems to be a tenable grasp of Latin, (even so, you still missed the point of my name), which is commendable, but still doesn't get you a prize, and you're not quite as smart as you think you are. Don't feel bad though, no liberal ever is, because you're all wrong on pretty much everything, even when your intentions are above reproach. You see, liberals are unstable, emotional people, given to flights of fancy, and are prone to think that all problems, and people, are very two-dimensional, and so you see the world as rather like a comic book, in which the hero, (yourself, or the murderous scumbag du jour that you adore), is an outcast of an evil, wicked society, and is simply a misunderstood underdog of a good guy. You see the world in black and white, but in your world, black is white, up is down, and good and evil are whatever you decide they are, which is why liberals get so pissy over an executed criminal, yet see nothing wrong with murdering unborn children for the sake of convenience. In conclusion, you are too stupid to live. Please, if you wish future generations well, I implore you, kill yourself now so that you may not infect others with your weapons grade viral stupidity. I don't say this out of hate, but out of compassion. I can't stand the thought that the greatest obstacle to the freedom of the people of the Middle East is not a gang of murderers and thugs, but those who support them unconditionally. Liberals.

33 Oyster. Helping the mujahideen made sense ... to a point. We went way beyond that point and helped build the Taliban. That was the problem. Carter certainly opened the door for aid with his finding, but Reagan went FAR beyond that and enabled all sorts of nonsense both in Afghanistan and Central America. The problem is always compounded by lack of oversight. That's how we wind up in bed with narcotic traffickers and things always go to hell from there. This isn't hindsight. That was contemporary criticism. The problem is we keep repeating this mistake. Here's a perfect example, after we went in and took out the Taliban why did we officially decide that opium eradication wasn't a military problem? Force protection isn't a strategic issue? People act all surprised that opium production has shot up and guess what...so has funding for terrorists. People were pointing that out back in 2002 but we are *starting* to get a handle on the problem now? After breeding OBL we start pumping up Rashid Dostum? We just don't learn. I can't tell if he will be the next Felix Rogriguez or Roberto D'aubison. Look at Iraq and the "Salvador Option"... that isn't just the same program... it's the same guys: Negroponte, Steele, Casteel, Coffman, Goss... I didn't realize we had a statute of limitations on this sort of crap. And another thing about the "enemy of my enemy" fallacy... it doesn't come back to bite us in the ass "sometimes"... I'm having a hard time thinking when anyone has really benefited from that strategy in low intensity or theater conflicts. Proxy fighting is one thing, but let them go hogwild and that inevitably creates tremendous resentment. We pay for that. We aren't uniquely guilty of this. The Soviets got royally screwed playing the same game. What the hell did Cuba get out of Angola? Castro was lucky the US was foolish enough to take in the Mariellitos. If you *really* want to see how bad it can get look at how we kept turning a blind eye to Pakistan. Enabling the ISI and AQ Khan because they were "the enemy of our enemy"... except when they aren't. I don't want you to think I think everything is bad. I think what we are doing with Jordan and Qatar is good. We should do more of that. I think we should have held the Kuwaitis to their promise of democratization after we saved their asses. I think helping the Kurds is potentially a good thing. Terrorism is a real problem and it needs to be confronted. But it is a piratical scourge, not an ideological battle. Iran SUPPORTED our invasion of Afghanistan. We had a real opening there. This administration (Bolton) didn't want to hear about that. Instead, we paint them as part of this "axis of evil" and drive them into the SCO and their lunatic fringe gets all paranoid and puts a zealot like Ahmedinejad in.

34 background, Bill Clinton should have taken Osama Bin Laden into custody when given the opportunity, no? How's that for hindsight. End of discussion.

35 Improbus Max.... I think I got your name just right. I don't see wickedness (even if it is only somewhat) as anything BUT inferior, morally bad and potentially unpatriotic. Maybe you like the oxymoronic quality of the nick... suit yerself. As for the rest of your armchair analysis. It's always bad form to project. You are wrong on most counts. I've spent most of my life outside CONUS. I've seen the damage up close and the aftermath when our attention moves on to some other "hot spot" or "crisis" for the cameras. Talk about simple minded.... I point out Palestinians are a mixed bag and deride Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa Martyrs as much as Kach, Kahane Chai or Temple Mount Faithful... and you can't even keep the players straight. Nice to be smug ain't it? That way you can always blame others for the havoc. If I was going to paint you in broad strokes, I'd say you were the typical American ... needs a good guy and a bad guy or he can't keep score. That's one of the reasons the meltdown in the Balkans never got much traction here. Same with Angola. American's can't follow a tripartite conflict. About the only thing you got right is .. yeah Thai food is ok...

36 Bill Clinton was pro-Taliban, and let Osama escape in Afghanistan too, as well as Sudan. He incubated the Taliban regime in Afghanistan for at least three years, despite the fact that it was harboring Osama bin Laden, was responsible for growing 60 percent of the world's heroin and denied basic human rights to the nation, a U.S. congressman charges. Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, R-Calif., says he was belittled, stonewalled and ridiculed for three years for asserting the congressional oversight role in the formulation of foreign policy toward Afghanistan during the last term of the Clinton administration. "In 1997, the Taliban overextended themselves," he says. "Thousands of troops were captured in the north. Much of their equipment was destroyed by the Northern Alliance. Nothing prevented the opposition from taking Kabul. The Taliban was more vulnerable than it ever was before." But instead of seizing the opportunity to support the Northern Alliance, Rohrabacher says the Clinton administration imposed a ceasefire and arms embargo that was supposed to apply to both sides. Instead, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia took the opportunity to resupply and rebuild the Taliban army. President Clinton, Rohrabacher maintains, knew about this but withheld information from Congress and the Northern Alliance. Rohrabacher contacted the Central Intelligence Agency and asked officials to talk to his friend. A week went by and nothing happened, he says. He called again. Another week went by with no contact. Rohrabacher got in touch with Rep. Porter Goss, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, who set up a meeting with the Bin Laden Task Force, a group comprised of members of the CIA, FBI and National Security Agency. Rohrabacher met with the task force, which assured him it would get right on the matter. "It took a month before anyone from the task force ever got in touch with my friend," he says. By then, bin Laden had moved. Rohrabacher organized several humanitarian relief efforts on behalf of the Northern Alliance, but, he says, he could never interest the Clinton administration in helping. In fact, he says, the administration threw up roadblocks to his efforts on more than one occasion. During the Clinton administration, the congressman says, Voice of America became known in Afghanistan as the "Voice of the Taliban." "When I tell people that President Clinton supported the Taliban, they go berserk," he said. "But that is the truth." http://www.rense.com/general16/pro.htm

37 BG Noise: I'm not going to spend my every spare moment tearing apart your selection of points to bolster your argument while you ignore those which weaken it. I will say that if you think we ever had an "opening" with the Iranians, you truly are delusional. As a matter of fact, you are suggesting exactly that which you have shown much scorn for in your lengthy dissertations. Fraternization and interfering in unstable nations. Do you really think Ahmadinejad's ascension was due to our policies and has nothing to do with the Euroweenies condescending talks with the Mullahs? Do you also think that Ahmadinejad has said anything that they weren't already thinking or hadn't said in so many words before? He just says it out loud. There's nothing new or different in Iran, except that each day they get closer to the bomb. Something they've been working on since long before we called them any names. Believe me, Ahmadinejad is becoming a huge embarrassment for them. I don't think they put him in there as a result of being called part of the axis. I don't think they knew what they were doing at all when they put him in. They've worked long and hard trying to build this tough and independent image of themselves and he's further marginalizing and alienating them. We see the same thing here - every time Howard Dean opens his stupid mouth, it makes us smile.

38 Yeah yeah sure thing, you're a reg'lar Walter Mitty aintcha noisy? Well, for someone who claims to have been so well-exposed to the world, and all the evil done upon it by those big, mean, nasty Republicans, you still come off as a shithouse intellectual. You see everything through the lens of anti-Americanism and anti-anything a Republican does, which of course makes the excesses of every stupid fucktard dimo-crat from FDR to the curret crop of insignificant traitors pale in comparison. Improbus, indeed. That's almost funny, but not in the way you intended. I'm sorry I wasted the effort, if the only people who are going to go to the trouble to try to figure it out are too stupid to get it. Okay, I'll 'splain it for you: It means roughly the best of the worst, or the other way around if you prefer. I took the concept of yin and yang and put a Latin spin on it to make it sound dramatic, or impressive, or at least different, but not for halfwits to chuckle at because they think they've discovered something clever.

39 Two comments first to JC who noted that after Clinton froze the arms to the Northern Alliance: the Clinton administration imposed a ceasefire and arms embargo that was supposed to apply to both sides. Instead, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia took the opportunity to resupply and rebuild the Taliban army. absolutely correct Which is why I have been saying this "enemy of my enemy" crap ain't working and is only going to screw us. Iraq has always been less of a problem than Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. AQ Khan wasn't working out of Bagdhad. Oyster, I am NOT saying that Iran put Ahmadhinejad in because we put them on the axis of evil. I am saying that we had an opening there which we blew because we were so focused on going after Iraq. Iran was the first Muslim nation to endorse our invasion of Afghanistan. The OIC endorsed our invasion of Afghanistan. But instead of focusing on international terrorism (and I distinguish that from the proxy use of terrorists in regional conflicts) we decided to test the Bush Doctrine. Iran wakes up with US boots in almost every country it shares a border with and the president says "You're next".... if they weren't paranoid before that might do it. A rational response is to a) learn the lesson of Pakistan, North Korea and Iraq.... if you don't have a nuke ... get one! b) look for allies. Who better than the SCO ? We are so busy tying ourselves up in knots in Iraq to restore the petrodollar to that country that a bunch of countries most people can't pronounce got together with Russia and China and formed an alliance. Big deal right? Well except for the fact the countries were Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan , Khazakhstan, Tajikistan. And they account for 1/4 of the world's population. And two of them are nuclear powers. And who is on deck asking for observer status? Pakistan, India, Iran and Mongolia. Great. Four nuclear powers , two major oil producers, 1 major gas producer, 1/2 the world's population and a land mass from the Black Sea to the Pacific, from the Arctic to the Indian Ocean. Here's the irony... the reason Pakistan and India came close to nuclear war was the fight over Kashmir, which India wants to defend itself from another invasion by China .... and these guys are all getting together.... why? Because someone scared the crap out of them when he decided we don't need no stinking ABM treaty...and then invaded a country to maintain oil on the dollar standard. And here's the meltdown scenario... while Gulliver ties himself up in knots repeating the Mesopotamian Campaign, Iran shifts to the petroeuro. Russia diversifies as well and China decides to cut back on the dollars. Venezuela having moved all its reserves out of US banks joins in and the US is caught deep in debt, its dollar down 25% and the cost of fuel up 25%. How you like them apples? And OBL is still running around. Think that's just all airy fairy hoo haa... consider this: When was the last time a country kicked out our troops? I mean before Uzbekistan.... Of course rock hard conservatives who think Intelligent Design is appealing because it makes things easier and the folks who believe there is a "War on Christmas" sponsored by WalMart ... it's just easier to believe the real problem is we need to have a Crusade. No wonder Rand Beers quit.

40 Improbus.... you need a better dictionary if you think Improbulus means "worst".... its "somewhat wicked"... and Maximus is "greatest" as in "biggest" or "highest" or "loudest" not "best" You are basically calling yourself "The loudest somewhat wicked [one]" How apropos...well played. I'm impressed... at how feeble you are. Someone should introduce you to a dictionary. How positively Humpty Dumpty of you... I guess you figure it's a dead language who cares right? Sort of like foreign cultures where they don't speaka de eenglish... fuck em. If you are are really going for "Best of the Worst" try "Optimus Pessimus" or "Optimus Malus"... and that yin/yang spin... *chuckle* fuggedaboudit... the cosmological point of that symbol is the dynamic tension of duality that leads to creation.... not the mediocrity of being the best of the worst. Nullus curo pro stultis -- John Smith/Joe/Sanjuro Kuabatake

41 ackground proves that if one has lots of time to waste he can argue about anything or on any side. Every country wrong, every president wrong. Bla, bla, bla. But never, NEVER a solution or suggestion to make things better. Typical democrat for sure.

42 Off subject: Transit workers strike in New York City. This is what happens when the union elects a Democrat black Haitian Immigrant to represent your union. He is so grateful to the nation that gave him a home that he will help cause millions of Americans to lose their income. DEPORT THE PUNK!

43 Gee...seems like a lot of misnomers here....greyrooster would rather act like an ostrich. Pretending there is no problem hmmmm....good thing we don't have a president who does that....oh wait.... I forgot... besides trading Sammy Sosa he really hasn't done anything wrong has he? But hey... if you think everything is peachy good for you, just don't be surprised when you can't afford em.

44 shorter 8ground: I don't just hate America, I hate the whole world.

45 Strike Three for JC My point...which has been pretty damn consistent... is that this "enemy of my enemy is my friend" bullshit is a major source of our problems. We need to change that or we will continue to repeat the mistakes of the past. If you need yet another example of this look at the election victory by Hamas. Do you realize how Hamas got its start? They were supported by cynical Israeli politicians who wanted to create a competing source of power to Arafat. Well... look how well that worked out. I have even been clear about where the trip line is "the enemy of my enemy is not my friend if he violates my values." Yesterday was yet another report of yet another torture facility in the Interior Ministry. That most recent find, like the previous one, was made by American soldiers. Supporting death squads makes a mockery of the service of the vast majority of men and women serving in Iraq. The rest of the world is not going to draw the distinction between "good" American soldiers and "bad" American contractors. I used to be a registered Republican. Reagan cured me of that. However, I would have come back to support McCain but I would never vote for Bush. The difference between Reagan and Bush is Reagan had values, Bush has interests. I didn't agree with a lot of Reagan's values. But he sincerely held them. McCain has values. I don't agree with all of them, but he will listen to reason. You want to follow Bush with unthinking loyalty and act like a battered housewife, that is your decision. But you won't get a lot of sympathy from people like me if you keep enabling the abuse.

46 >>>"I used to be a registered Republican. Reagan cured me of that." Because you were a check pants Republican, otherwise known as a RINO. And when a real conservative showed up, you left in favor of your true spiritual home, the Democrat party. This only served to strengthen the GOP and make it the dominant force it is now because the Reagan revolution actually was a net gain to the party. But now your new party, the Dems, has been hijacked by loons, and everybody in it is being dragged along for the ride. And far from strengthening it, the Howard Dean revolution is a joyride to electoral oblivion. Even some Dems congressmen are having the balls to tell your party loons to shut up. But it's probably too little too late.

47 JC wins the Golden Sombrero Yeah just like Danforth is a RINO... oh wait didn't he officiate at Reagan's funeral? That lockstep mentality is what's carving a hole in the soul of the Republican Party. So much for "big tent" politics. So much for "majority party" status. You got a problem when even George Will says: The president has forfeited his right to be trusted as a custodian of the Constitution." - George Will (Oct 4, 2005) George Will chooses his words carefully. He knows that "trust" has been one of Dubya's calling cards. But you want to pretend blind loyalty is the sine qua non of integrity and play the RINO card, go ahead. Just don't act surprised when you find yourself turning to such extremists as Dobson, Roberts and Ahmanson for support. I know this will fall on deaf ears, but I will say it one last time: The enemy of your enemy is not your friend. I realize that talking to you about the importance of values is a waste of time. That conversation assumes you have values. We're done.

48 background, but George Will said that in response to Bush's signing onto some Democrat/Rino legistlation, i.e., signing McCain-Feingold. So are you saying you agree with George Will's view of that Democrat legislation? I doubt it. More likely you're just trying to play both sides against the middle. It's a neat trick, but you can't kid a kidder. It works like this, on the one hand moonbats deride Bush for doing something they don't like, and on the other hand moonbats derides him for NOT doing the very same thing. It means you can't lose, and Bush can't win. That's all you did with George Will's quote. It shows your dishonesty. And what is it with you Liberals with my hispanic ethnicity? In about 5 years hanging with conservatives, it's only Libs who feel compelled to bring up my ethnicity. That wouldn't be racism, would it?

49 Es obvio que no jueqas béisbol.

50 Oye JC, Pienso que su niño interno está demasiado sensible. ¿Qué pasa, tiene una conciencia culpable?

51 Culpable sobre que?

52 Por favor, no insultes mi inteligencia y acto como no sabes de lo que estoy hablando. Estoy hablando de sus malas opciones. Pareces hacer muchos de ellas y después culpar cada uno otro por los resultados. Sabes que es una pregunta válida. No espero que me contestes directamente. Por lo menos INTENTO a ser honesto con se. Probablemente no harás eso, porque pareces adicto a las malas opciones.

53 No, eres tu quien me insulta. E insultas a todos hispanos.

54 Eso es bastante divertido. Usted oye una referencia del béisbol reírse de tu habilidad y confundes eso con el racismo. Éste es un ejemplo perfecto como que culpas cada uno por sus errores. ¡Pienso que pulsaste hacia fuera OTRA VEZ! WOW.... ¡Cinco veces en una fila! Eso tiene que ser un nuevo expediente del mundo. Por lo menos eres constante. Desesperado, pero constante. Ése es todo lo que tengo que decir. No estoy perdiendo más tiempo escuchando tu gimoteos.

55 Not "beisbol", but golden sombreros. Maybe I was being overly sensitive this time, but that happens when Libs can't get over their obsession with my ethnicity. Get the fuck over it already you goddamm race pimps.

56 and ps. guilty about what? Still waiting.

57 JC whined: Maybe I was being overly sensitive this time, but that happens when Libs can't get over their obsession with my ethnicity. And like I said: Éste es un ejemplo perfecto como que culpas cada uno por sus errores. Lemme translate that for you .... "That is a perfect example of how you blame everyone [else] for your mistakes." You get up in my grill calling me a racist because your inner child is wounded by something someone else did to you once upon a time.... and I'm a bleeding heart overly sensitive liberal? Puh....leeze...... now you are just swinging at air. I don't care what language you whine in, I'm done. It hurts my ears.

58 Hey MR. Sensitive... don't forget your prize: http://www.enlexica.com/cgi-bin/find.cgi?v=golden%20sombrero&d=spbb&s=Q

59 Still waiting, race pimp.

60 BG Noise. You're all right. The world's all wrong. Why hasn't the Pentagon, the NSA, CIA and every other governmental acronym consulted you? Yeesh. Not one topic has been discussed that your haven't been 100% correct. That's quite a record. You just don't know when to admit you don't have all the answers or that you could ever be wrong. It must be difficult for you to have to discuss such important matters with we who "just don't get it", huh? You consistently ignore some facets of other's arguments to further bolster your standpoint by actually repeating and expounding on them as if they were your own ideas, and yes, you do, in fact, employ 20/20 hindsight regularly. You're not even good at disguising it or applying it correctly. This will be the end of any discussion I'll participate in with you. You can't stand to lose even the most minor point in any argument, so it's senseless.

61 Oyster, I am not always right. I made the mistake of thinking this was a venue for serious discussion. And I am not the only one who the NSA, CIA and White House could have listened to who said that invading Iraq was going to be a huge mistake. They could have listened to this list of left wing, limp wristed, terrorist sympathizing, American hating, surrender monkeys: Gen. Clark (Supreme Allied Commander, NATO) Gen. Hoar (Commander in Chief, U.S. Central Command) Gen. Schwarzkopf (Commander in Chief, U.S. Central Command) Gen. Scowcroft (National Security Advisor) Gen. Shalikashvili (Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff) Gen. Shinseki (Army Chief of Staff) Gen. Shelton ( Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff) Gen. Jones, (Marine Commandant) Gen. McPeak, (Air Force Chief of Staff) Gen. Zinni, (Commander in Chief, U.S. Central Command) Face it, if the leader of any self respecting banana republic had made such a huge military miscalculation they would have been overthrown in a military coup. It is testimony to the integrity and respect for their oaths to the Constitution that our military commanders have not sought usurp the legal authority of civilian command. But don't confuse that with being right. == Now you know why the only generals in favor of invading Iraq were General Electric and General Dynamics.

62 Ackup: Seeing the good part of the world is not burying ones head in the sand. I know you know better places to live. Just do us a favor and name one and move there.

63 Ostrich, I like my country fine. I just don't care for the so-called "conservatives" who have taken over and pump up huge deficits,compromise our ability to defend ourselves, squander our natural resources, invade our privacy, meddle with our classrooms, restore dignity and honor to cronyism, and promote welfare for the rich who are so patriotic they move their money off shore. Besides that, everything is peachy.

1 This should be a productive meeting. On par with all the others in the past that have produced so many changes and benefits. Just some thoughts on this one: Adoption of a 10 year plan to restructure the Islamic Nation.......to include Britain, France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Holland and Denmark Discuss proposals for the empowerment of women....by providing them with better kitchen appliances and heavier, more durable burqas, possibly without the pesky breathing holes. Discuss a proposal for OIC member countries to design and build a passenger plane.......economics are promising since issues such as performance and durability are negated due to each plane only having to make a one way trip. As a side note, design and construction in the Middle East has a completely different meaning. Since memorising the Koran doesn't make one an engineer, design and construction translates as "we'll write the cheques, pay the bribes and get the infidels to do all the work for us - as we have done with every other project considered to be a source of national pride in the region".

2 They should not limit themselves to opening up trade within Muslim countries, they should ponder buisness with all countries. Egypt comes to mind. India. This should also be lumped in with Empowerment of Muslim women. Enough of handicapping your economy by forbidding the contributions of women. Pick up a glove and get in the game!

3 An ideal opportunity for ridding the world of such human garbage in one foul swoop. If only I had a tactical bomb...

4 ...and if non-muslims are not allowed in Mecca why do we let muslims into the west?

5 Sounds to me like a good place for a tactial nuke to show up unannounced.

6 Ha. A muslim passenger plane. How do you build a aircraft with a big hump on top? Friggin camel jockeys couldn't build a ball point pen.

1 You said 'backdoor'.

2 Why is it liberals support gay marriage in the West, but say nothing when their beloved islamofascists do things like this?

3 Hmm...I guess greyrooster was right when he talked about all the buggering going on in the Muslim lands. I thought that Sharia law and all was a bugger killer, but it seems to be no more than a bugger biter.

4 I'm waiting with baited breath for Western Liberals to hit the streets by the tens of thousands, they'll be writing their congressmen, they'll hold vigils in front of Arab embassies, they'll be on all the talking head shows demanding sactions, they'll be calling for boycotts, etc. etc. etc. It's going to be an amazing display of their commmitment to gay rights!!!

5 OK, this is red-lining my weird-o-meter.

6 I never cease to be amazed at the ironies of the Arab world. Homosexuality - too disturbing to tell the public about. Beheadings, kidnappings and mass murder - put it out there in Hi Def, 24-7. Also, "government-ordered hormone treatments"? Doesn't that just leave you with really hairy, really muscular, really scary homosexuals?

7 At first when I read the top line "in Gay Mass wedding" that it was located in Massachusetts. But of course it is legal there now. Everyone does like to fault others. But this one is tricky....As a conservative against gay marriage here in the USA should I be in agreement with the hated islamofascits for preserving the sanctity of marriage ? Or should I just chuckle and shake my head at any observed behavioral similarities. Didn't Pogo have something to say about this ?

8 Rusty, I offer you an olive branch and you fart in my face. You think you hold all the power, but you hold none. It is we, the Brotherhood, who hold the power. Email me to obtain the terms of your surrender. And now, Shock and Awe! SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh... POOOOM PAPOOOMM DOOOOM DOOOOOM TUMP. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat BEEP, BEEP, BEEP, YAAAARRRRRGGGH! Squish, POP! TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP! CCAAAAAARRRRRRRACKKKKKK_A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat KApomp KAAARUMMMMMPPP ttiiiiiiiiiiiiioooooooooowwwwhhhhhoooooooooo WOOOOOOOhhhuuufff, POOOOOOOOOOOOOOM, PPPPPOOOOOOMMM ALLAH-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala! SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh... POOOOM PAPOOOMM DOOOOM DOOOOOM TUMP. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat BEEP, BEEP, BEEP, YAAAARRRRRGGGH! Squish, POP! TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP! CCAAAAAARRRRRRRACKKKKKK_A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat KApomp KAAARUMMMMMPPP ttiiiiiiiiiiiiioooooooooowwwwhhhhhoooooooooo WOOOOOOOhhhuuufff, POOOOOOOOOOOOOOM, PPPPPOOOOOOMMM ALLAH-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala! SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh... POOOOM PAPOOOMM DOOOOM DOOOOOM TUMP. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat BEEP, BEEP, BEEP, YAAAARRRRRGGGH! Squish, POP! TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP! CCAAAAAARRRRRRRACKKKKKK_A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat KApomp KAAARUMMMMMPPP ttiiiiiiiiiiiiioooooooooowwwwhhhhhoooooooooo WOOOOOOOhhhuuufff, POOOOOOOOOOOOOOM, PPPPPOOOOOOMMM ALLAH-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala! SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh... POOOOM PAPOOOMM DOOOOM DOOOOOM TUMP. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat BEEP, BEEP, BEEP, YAAAARRRRRGGGH! Squish, POP! TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP! CCAAAAAARRRRRRRACKKKKKK_A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat KApomp KAAARUMMMMMPPP ttiiiiiiiiiiiiioooooooooowwwwhhhhhoooooooooo WOOOOOOOhhhuuufff, POOOOOOOOOOOOOOM, PPPPPOOOOOOMMM ALLAH-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala! SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh... POOOOM PAPOOOMM DOOOOM DOOOOOM TUMP. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat BEEP, BEEP, BEEP, YAAAARRRRRGGGH! Squish, POP! TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP! CCAAAAAARRRRRRRACKKKKKK_A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat KApomp KAAARUMMMMMPPP ttiiiiiiiiiiiiioooooooooowwwwhhhhhoooooooooo WOOOOOOOhhhuuufff, POOOOOOOOOOOOOOM, PPPPPOOOOOOMMM ALLAH-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala! SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh... POOOOM PAPOOOMM DOOOOM DOOOOOM TUMP. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat BEEP, BEEP, BEEP, YAAAARRRRRGGGH! Squish, POP! TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP! CCAAAAAARRRRRRRACKKKKKK_A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat KApomp KAAARUMMMMMPPP ttiiiiiiiiiiiiioooooooooowwwwhhhhhoooooooooo WOOOOOOOhhhuuufff, POOOOOOOOOOOOOOM, PPPPPOOOOOOMMM ALLAH-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala! SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh... POOOOM PAPOOOMM DOOOOM DOOOOOM TUMP. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat BEEP, BEEP, BEEP, YAAAARRRRRGGGH! Squish, POP! TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP! CCAAAAAARRRRRRRACKKKKKK_A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat KApomp KAAARUMMMMMPPP ttiiiiiiiiiiiiioooooooooowwwwhhhhhoooooooooo WOOOOOOOhhhuuufff, POOOOOOOOOOOOOOM, PPPPPOOOOOOMMM ALLAH-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala! SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh... POOOOM PAPOOOMM DOOOOM DOOOOOM TUMP. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat BEEP, BEEP, BEEP, YAAAARRRRRGGGH! Squish, POP! TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP! CCAAAAAARRRRRRRACKKKKKK_A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat KApomp KAAARUMMMMMPPP ttiiiiiiiiiiiiioooooooooowwwwhhhhhoooooooooo WOOOOOOOhhhuuufff, POOOOOOOOOOOOOOM, PPPPPOOOOOOMMM ALLAH-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala!SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh... POOOOM PAPOOOMM DOOOOM DOOOOOM TUMP. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat BEEP, BEEP, BEEP, YAAAARRRRRGGGH! Squish, POP! TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP! CCAAAAAARRRRRRRACKKKKKK_A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat KApomp KAAARUMMMMMPPP ttiiiiiiiiiiiiioooooooooowwwwhhhhhoooooooooo WOOOOOOOhhhuuufff, POOOOOOOOOOOOOOM, PPPPPOOOOOOMMM ALLAH-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala! SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh... POOOOM PAPOOOMM DOOOOM DOOOOOM TUMP. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat BEEP, BEEP, BEEP, YAAAARRRRRGGGH! Squish, POP! TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP, TWOOOOPOMP! CCAAAAAARRRRRRRACKKKKKK_A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat-A-TAT-Tat KApomp KAAARUMMMMMPPP ttiiiiiiiiiiiiioooooooooowwwwhhhhhoooooooooo WOOOOOOOhhhuuufff, POOOOOOOOOOOOOOM, PPPPPOOOOOOMMM ALLAH-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala-Hala! SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh, SHHHhooooooooooWoooooosh... POOOOM PAPOOOMM DOOOOM DOOOOOM TUMP. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat. GARRRRaqck, GARRRRaqck-a-tat-tat BEEP, BEEP, BEEP, YAAAARRRRRGGGH! Squish, POP!

9 'Perfumed Garden' by Abu Nuwas: O the joy of sodomy! So now be sodomites, you Arabs. Turn not away from it-- therein is wondrous pleasure. Take some coy lad with kiss-curls twisting on his temple and ride as he stands like some gazelle standing to her mate. A lad whom all can see girt with sword and belt not like your whore who has to go veiled. Make for smooth-faced boys and do your very best to mount them, for women are the mounts of the devils

10 Then I'm a devil of the first order.

11 They also hung those 2 gays in Iran for being gay? These muslims yet again prove their hypocracy. I know they are a sexually repressed lot but my thinking is that they have too many ugly women so have to resort to boys.

12 Jester, we don't even know if those are women behind those burqas. Maybe they are gay men, and that is why they are covered up. Just a thought.

13 JJ you may have hit the nail on the head. All the good looking arab chicks defect to the west and become sinful beauty queens.

14 Jester, this is what we should say: All your sinful beauty queen belong to us. LOL!

15 Kill them! Kill them all. If all the faggots in muslim countries were killed nothing would be left except camels and goats.

16 Agent Brown says the story is not "good gay" or "bad gay", but it is definitely gay.

17 This former UAE resident of six year knows wise people in the UAE live by these rules: *Keep indiscretions discreet. *Don't make waves *Trust your young boys w/Egyptians & your money with Gulf Arabs but never mix that up. Plenty of gay taxi drivers in the UAE, one came onto me rather strongly once and our poof Irish neighbor entertained quite a few of them. Also, the Pashtus (the taxi drivers) have a saying "women are for babies, men are for fun". Those people violated rule #1 above.

18 Fuck all you christians. It's amazing how uneducated fuckheads like you get off on all the stereotypical shit. Go do some research if you know how to fucking read that is, before you get all occupied with thinking about why those faggots are getting treatments. HOMOLOVERS. Anyway, Fuck you all, FUCK JESUS CHRIST FUCK MARY FUCK ALL YOU CHRISTIANS YOU FUCK FACES. STUFF A CROSS UP YOUR ARSES YOU ILLITERATE CHRISTIAN FUCKS. Fuck you all, FUCK JESUS CHRIST FUCK MARY FUCK ALL YOU CHRISTIANS YOU FUCK FACES. STUFF A CROSS UP YOUR ARSES YOU ILLITERATE CHRISTIAN FUCKS. Fuck you all, FUCK JESUS CHRIST FUCK MARY FUCK ALL YOU CHRISTIANS YOU FUCK FACES. STUFF A CROSS UP YOUR ARSES YOU ILLITERATE CHRISTIAN FUCKS. Fuck you all, FUCK JESUS CHRIST FUCK MARY FUCK ALL YOU CHRISTIANS YOU FUCK FACES. STUFF A CROSS UP YOUR ARSES YOU ILLITERATE CHRISTIAN FUCKS. Fuck you all, FUCK JESUS CHRIST FUCK MARY FUCK ALL YOU CHRISTIANS YOU FUCK FACES. STUFF A CROSS UP YOUR ARSES YOU ILLITERATE CHRISTIAN FUCKS. 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19 How about we sing Kyles mom's is a stupid bitch in D minor Wellllll. Kyles moms a bitch she's a big fat bitch she's the biggest bitch in the whole wide world. She's a stupid bitch if there ever was a bitch she's a bitch to all the boys and girls. On monday shs's a bitch on Tuesday she's a bitch and Wednesday to Saturday she's bitch. Then on sunday just to be different she's a super King kamaya maya beotch.

20 Why is it liberals support gay marriage in the West, but say nothing when their beloved islamofascists do things like this? Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at November 29, 2005 10:02 AM I'm waiting with baited breath for Western Liberals to hit the streets by the tens of thousands, they'll be writing their congressmen, they'll hold vigils in front of Arab embassies, they'll be on all the talking head shows demanding sactions, they'll be calling for boycotts, etc. etc. etc. It's going to be an amazing display of their commmitment to gay rights!!! Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at November 29, 2005 10:18 AM --------------------------- fficial">You mean like this? Oh yeah. Like that. Apparently Jesusland still hasn't mastered the art of being the slightest aware of what they are talking about. Improbulus simply lives up to their name. Good show! Idiots.

21 Be natural and respect other feelings.It is their choice.God is the only 1 who can judge.Leave them alone and dont insult other religion It is a personal choice.Keep your faith in your heart and practice it in your life.If it does not affect you or other living creatures .To be a (SINNER)or not is none of your business.You need a passport to go to heaven.(Judgement Day)Therefore,you must be qualified enough to ENTER.(Heaven)) Are you qualified ? Check your conscience.The rest is up to you. Good LUck ~@ ( ? )(-/+)( ? )

22 Islam is not a religion but a cult. Today it is the greatest fountain of hatred as pious young muslims kill by the thousands. Islam has been a cult from its un-fortunate begining. The Koran states that the Prophet wedded and fucked a child. A great role model for a religion based on dehumanisation. It is just a matter of time before the clash of civilisations (if you are willing to concede that Islam is in fact civilized) gets a lot bloody. I vote we drop nuculear bombs on Iran post-haste. Then there will be many shaheed and a need for many billions of virgins in paradise. Allah Akbar cowards.

23 fuck dubai , fuck uae .gay are human . muslim are busted of socity , kill a musilm save the world ., dubai is full of protustes girls , they doing sex bussines all over dubai openy , liquer is openy in dubai , big crimel live in dubai , fuck you uae ,Muslims is problem to world , kill a musilm , muslim who destroy the 9/11 new york city , GayMassmarriage is good , muslim is bad , evey join hands to kill all musilm in world . -- shemale .

1 Prager's a pretty smart dude. He rambles on in his talk show sometimes, but his writing's usually really sharp.

2 ...and why do so many do-gooders in western society make excuses for muslims and try to accommodate their religion when we all know it is a million times worse than fascism.

3 Jester - The "do-gooders" you refer to are either leftists, or the MSM/DNC. These folks like muslims because Muslims hate Judeo-Christian values. Which translates into capitalist, English speaking countries ie USA, UK, Australia. That is why the make excuses for Muslims. They ignore the fact that for 1,200 years in addition to the Jews and Christians Muslims hateand have hated Buddhists, Hindus, and all other religions; enough to slaughter them whenever theyget the chance.

4 Too true Rod. In the UK they expect Religious education to cover all religions including the evil koran. As a supply teacher in London I subverted this process by refusing to teach islam in any form and giving the kids the choice of art or football instead. Some of the retards in the UK education system grovel and kiss the arse of islam. They are the same people who get on their high horses about the nazis or even the conservative party, yet they defend the most evil group of people on the planet. There is even a bloody bank in the UK that no longer has "piggy banks" because it offends the dirty muslims. All true Brits should never give this bank any business again.. I think it's the midland bank but I may be wrong. Then there is the way that some folk are scared of Christmas because it may offend muslims...I say offend them. I could go on and on about this sort of thing; we live amongst traitors to our own beliefs and these are probably the worst sort of people. These people have no patriotism, self worth or pride in their own heritage and contribute nothing towards a well balanced and peaceful planet.

5 Jester, We have the same problem here in the US, perhaps on a lesser scale, but political correctness is now taking over our education system as well. The only good thing about the US is the number of Christian and private schools, plus children are allowed to be home-schooled, which is the fastest growing segment. The real problem in all this is the Leftists. They are responsible for all the problems you refer to, and if we are to solve our problems, we must confront the Left. That is the key to the solution of the problem.

6 JJ I gave my kids a Barney video and my purple dinosaur friend kept on going on about happy kwanzaa and all these other festivities that have only become trendy in the last decade but he didn't mention Christmas once. So I know what you mean about political correctness in the US. CHRISTMAS rules! Amen

7 My kid is studying the states and capitals. After they tried to make it fun I took him aside and told him. I want each of these written down five times each. But dad you are so mean that's cruel and not fun at all. He made a 100 then they were all asking me how did you get him to do that. I was like I made him drill, repetition not complicated you write it over and over it sticks. The teacher was like oooh that's amazing. WTF? When to we stop entertaining and start educating. Nope not one fun thing about drilling or repetition, well except you score well on the test. The are so into keeping kidds attention and the wonder of learning. Back in my day the solution for ADHD was a red ass. Learned to concentrate PDQ. Oh but all that drilling and spanking is cruel. What's is even more cruel is graduating stupid.

8 Does anyone think the leaders of the "Religion of Peace" will answer Prager?

9 Islam is the embodiment of the evil St. Paul mentions when he dicusses the ongoing spiritual warfare that will continue until the end of time (i.e., JC's return).

10 Howie - my dad took me up to the attic every Sat morning and made me repete the times tables when I was in the second grade. Wacked me if I got one wrong. He must have spent 100 hours in about 3 months drilling me. But By the time the second grade ended I was the top kid in math. Repitition works. Ask anyone who graduated Boot Camp. an old exJarhead 12x12=144 see after 56 years I still have it!

11 Jester - - In the UK my first comment makes better sense if MSM/DNC is just MSM. Who are the lefties anymore over there? Blair fights the War on Terror and he's Labour; which for 50 years I have thought of as left. I am confused about Brit politics.

12 Blair has a divided party. His ranks are filled with lefties as is the conservative right. His own party recently went against his proposal for 90 day detention without trial for suspected terrorists...a decision they will no doubt rue. People like Ken Livingston (Mayor of London) have turned London into a muslim city with their love of islam and Prince Charles is another traitor to his own heritage by making excuses for islam...despite his mother being a #1 AQ target. There is a minority of lefties in Britain that seem to get their own way by collaborating with muslims and helping muslims into positions of power. Cities like Bradford are now run by muslims who only look after their own interests and dictate on how British society should be run. Enoch Powell warned Britain that this would happen in the late 60s but he was ridiculed. Funny how the prophets of the right always get it right.

13 YBP! Where have you been? Dang. Don't tell me you have a real life outside the internet.

14 Welcome back, YBP, from someone who, well, was informed that he had only been here a week. And that was last week.

15 Jester, What do you think could solve the problems you have in the UK? Or are there any solutions? Just your thoughts.

16 JJ, I admire the US for still having a strong sense of patriotism and pride in their flag. In the UK such things have eroded badly. Britain paid a heavy price for it's old empire as all those she colonised now want to live there. Some are welcome as they assimilate and contribute but alas the muslims from Pakistan and the middle east as well as Bengal are nothing but trouble. They want islam recognised as a national religion and their archiac ways and laws tolerated and respected. We fought the nazis and the japs for our nationhood and now it has been handed meekly to a force far worse in the guise of a religion (I am of course referring to islam). France is probably the beginning of a series of uprisings across Europe by these islamofascists. We should have zero tolerance to minority views. Raise our flag in all schools, know our traditons and practice them in preference to all others and sing our national anthem with pride. Create laws that state to go against our traditions and culture is treasonal and invite those who wish to do so to leave our land forever or rot in our jails. A bullet to the head is all some of them are fit for. Alas we are endangered of being overrun by muslim vermin if we don't make a stand soon. The average British person will rise up and take arms eventually if the muslims carry on with their demands. Maybe driving them out will be the only solution. It is one most of the native UK population would want if free speech on such matters was not punished by muslim instigated race-hate laws.

17 Jester: I weep for the UK. I have always considered it to be the bravest of nations. These stupid race-hate laws are cause more hate here in the US as well. The residents of England should be English. France, French (nasty little creatures). Germany, Germans, Japan, Japanese. Denmark, Danes. Etc. The world is screwed up if it is any other way. Multi-culturism is destroying national pride. Why, why do governments continue to listen to the idiots that say a country profits from immigration? Particularly, immigrants from countries that are all screwed up. Why are those countries screwed up? Because the inhabitants screwed it up. So we take these same people into our countries so they can screw up the non-screwed up countries. STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. There is only one solution to the muslim problem in Europe. Massive deportation. There is no other. Correct the problem. My pride would never allow me to leave America. I would rather stay and fight for it. These people that leave their countries because of tyranny are cowards. They should stay and fight to make their homelands better. Instead they run to better countries to make them worse. Also, anyone who doesn't like Christmas is an asshole. I am no longer a Christian. But life without Christmas, Man! No wonder the muslims are such freaks. Even Jews and agnostics (me) are happier at Christmas time. It's a season of joy and giving and caring. Stupid friggin ragheads. Piss on them.

18 "These people that leave their countries because of tyranny are cowards. They should stay and fight to make their homelands better. Instead they run to better countries to make them worse." Indeed they are cowards. The trouble is they attempt to recreate the tyranny they run from in their new countries. You can't teach old dogs new tricks. I will fight if I have to, the whole western society is at threat and sooner or later things will have to get really nasty. Deportation would be a peaceful solution but civil war is the more likely outcome if we are to drive such low-life from the western world. Greyrooster, like you I am an agnostic but I believe in tradition and "white" culture which is often not recognised or marginalised by other races that feel so hard done by. These people don't realise that our culture evolved over thousands of years and has given us progress and good living standards which those feeble muslim nations could never achieve due to their backward thinking.

19 Hurray for Western Civilization. JUST consider its music: Gregorian chant, Mozart, and Ella Fitzgerald. And Glenn Milller. And Beethoven. And John Philip Sousa. And Jim Reeves. Etc., etc. Thanks for the greeting, Oyster and JJ!

20 Yay it's YBP!!!!

21 YBP: You left out beer and whiskey. I thank the Christians for Christmas. I have a feeling Christmas will outlife the muslims.

22 Jester - Thanks for the information. UK or at least England sounds like it is moving towards France. Very sorry to hear that. Stiff upper lip and all that.

23 Rooster: Regarding Christmas, of that I have no doubt. Okay, just consider Heinekin. And Budweiser. And Guinness. And Jack Daniels. And Wild Turkey. And Old Crow. And Maker's Mark. Etc., etc. Good to hear from you. YBP

24 i met some guy muslims in sanfran cal, they gave the best blowjobs i have ever had, and they all swallow. praise allha

25 Show me where the Quran says all the Rubbish that you point out. Jihad means the internal and external struggle to do good. This can be giving money to the poor or sacrificing your life. Jihad is not to be taken against unbelievers unless atacked. According to the Quran Sabians, Christians and Jews are all people of the book. We must treat them equally and kindly. AS for the other religous beleivers like the quran says; 'say to them, to you be your way and to me be mine'. As for terrorism: you fail to remember its global, not islamic. There are Christian, Jewish, Black, White, Nationalistic, Communist etc terrorist groups. S0 THINK BEFORE YOU ARE PREJUDICED AGAINST MUSLIMS. IF YOU ARE DRIVEN TO HATE BY THE ACTIONS OF A FEW SO CALLED 'MUSLIMS' THEN YOU HAVE FELL INTO THE TERORISTS TRAP. C U ALL :-)

1 We shouldn't judge an entire group by the actions of some. After all, it's 99% of muslims that give the other 1% a bad name.

2 These jihad Caliphate dumn asses are nothing but liars. The Caliphate had a policy of rape whenever any new territory was conquered by the Muslims. Of course, since the women happened to be Christian, Hindu, Buddist or any other religion the jihadists were not considered under Muslim law to have raped anyone. Rape is one of the tools used by these jihadist bastards in their wars against the West and the Far East. That is why Scandanavian women are now being raped in large number by Muslim immigrants. But because these women are not Islamic, then the Muslims say no rape has occurred. As a matter of fact, when the bastard Mohammed murdered the Jews in Medina, he raped the wife of the leader of the Jews. So Mohammed is not only a pedephile, but a rapist as well. Look at what is going on in the Darfur region of the Sudan, and tell me whether rape is being used as a tool for war by the jihadists. I getting like IM now, I hope these bastards start something here.

3 True IM I see your point. However JJ has a great point here. I've not time to surf up the NPR Darfur story but it was good. Musharriff even comes up looking bad here jsut fromt he culture. I can't see why the left does not scream about it every day they are supposed to be all into civil rights and womens rights. We have a few girls on the site here so here we go. Also I'm whatever the percent is the good needs to speak out against the bad. Darfur, Northern Pakistan, Al-Qaeda. JJ is right on my point this guy claims no rapes but under Sharia it's hardly an objective or accurate statement. In darfur first they kill all the men in the village so no male witnesses when next week they come back and do the rapin. So now the only witness the women have are the rapists themselves fat chance for justtice there eh. This woman was handed over so her side does not get to witness the rape. Plus likeI said they just don't define rape as we do. Kufar rape = not rape. Rape as punishment not = rape. 3 wintenesses not = rape. Medical eveidence + 2 witnesses no rape. It's not a complex thing with just a litte attention to what the rules of Sharia are and by watching Darfur and this case it's apparent to any one.

4 The other part that gets me is that only hard right wingers see the evil of the Islamofacists. I'm not that way. I think the greatest hope is that the Arab world will wake up some day. I just don't see how the left can spend all it's time attacking the war and live with itself. How can you be all for rights and peace when obviously the islamofacists are not and could care less. So I'm middle of the road on most things. I'm conservative on fed power and spending. I'm all for rights but I would never be for the right of the islamofacists to rule the world it sounds as far out a some of gregs stuff unreal hard to believe. But here is a left althought they just can't say it pointing out what we all know. If I thought for one minute that Al-Qaeda would stop if we did I'd be all for packing it up. But I don;t think that's the case. In fact Iraq may get better but Iran and Syria and the rest it may get much worse. Oh one other thing when my country goes to war I expect the citizens to participate in winning. If DICK see's a problem he is a Senator he can march right up to the Oval office and bitch Bush right up one side and down the other no problems with that here. But when the press and the left are doing as they have done. it just burns me. America had best wake up and start pulling you don't win this war becuase we are just us. You win by working your ass off. The enemy has a 200 year plan counting on we will get all distracted and self absorbed and will do ourselves in. I wish I could say that's untrue but god it won;t be this middle of the road Republican swing voter that turns on his own country no matter what's wrong with it.

5 Most muslims are to busy raping little boys to worry about women. Besides a woman can whip the average wog.

6 Shari'a Judge: Ahmed, you are accused of rape. What say you? Ahmed: The strumpet tempted me with her succulent zinaat! Shari'a Judge: Yes, it is clear for all to see that her burqah is cut tight across the buttocks. Succubus! We shall have the salacious tart stoned!

7 A muslim worrying about women. Ha! Yea sure.

8 So why aren't we doing anything to help the christians in Dafur ? Why is it that we are sending Sudan 1 to 2 billion over the next 12 months. Because the muslim government in Khartoum are our "friends" and support our efforts in the war on terror.http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A44629-2005Apr11.html oh yes and also because of the oil there. "why isn't the left ........" who the hell cares why the left is or isn't doing whatever ! WE are in control of the government WE should be doing more to stop all that c**p The muslims have the oil and we are addicted to it. Sudan pumps about 1 million barrels a day thru its one pipeline Turn that off and see how fast things change there.

9 You "know" it's shariah law? Sorry, but it was local tribal custom that condemned Mukhtaran Bibi to be raped, not sharia law. Muslim or Hindu, these events are unfortunately common among the tribes there. That's Rajasthan for you. The rape was actually denounced by the local imam, and it was he who convinced the family to bring charges against the rapists. So I guess you owe this imam, Moulvi Abdul Razzaq, a heartfelt "thank you" for bringing this event to your attention, eh? How *excited* you must have been, to learn that Muslims had perpetrated yet another crime! I mean, it's almost worth a few beheadings here, a rape or two there... just for that feeling of orgasmic satisfaction that you can feel upon hearing such news. Better than sex! Isn't it? What it must be like to be so full of blind racist hatred that even the simplest of facts are obscured to you... You people have my pity. Go ahead, now, and say "Religion of peace, indeed!" or "fucking islamofascists you gunna be a pile of glass oooooorrraahhh!!!" Watching you people parrot the same phrases over and over and over never gets old.

10 Oh, God... It's not *Christians* that are being killed in Darfur. It's *Muslims.* Look it up. And, yes, you've just been caught caring about Muslims! Bwahahahaha!!!

11 Those Mongols must've been excellent rulers to make the most powerful empire of that time last many many centuries and prevent it's citizens from doing crime. Guess senseless slaughter of their own followed by a barbarian overlord feared on 3-4 continents are the things that get Muslims to behave. Suddenly Bush seems logical, but he became ridiculous instead of feared... At least on 6 continents, haven't heard anything from the penguins on Antarctica, they might be crapping their feathers because of Bushes plan to melt their homeland.

12 Just about every conscious human in the free world knows about Islamic suicide bombers, train bombers, and night club bombers. Everyone knows that Muslims flying large commercial planes crashed into the World Trade Center buildings and the Pentagon on 9/11. Those are the actions of the obvious terrorist side of Islam. It is interesting that those Islamics committing these heinous acts believe absolutely that the Quran orders them to do these things to achieve Mohammed’s plan of Islam dominating the world. Yet, all the world hears is the plea from Muslims to understand that Islam is a religion of peace and love. If that is so, does this mean that Islamics who are terrorists use a Quran that is different from the “peaceful” Muslim’s Quran? Does the fact that there is no one central power controlling Islam and giving one definitive translation or explanation for passages from the Quran that causes seemingly diverse interpretations of the Quran? Unless one is willing to look around at what else Islamics have been doing around the world besides blowing people to bits, the uninformed might believe the Islam really is a religion of peace and love, cursed with a few “bad apples.” “Peaceful Islam” has been just as busy as the terror wing. Large numbers of Arab-Muslims have immigrated all over the world. European countries are alarmed at the number of Muslims within their borders. The attack on America was like a fire-bell ringing, waking other countries up to the growing masses of Muslims in their midst. It was noticed that these Muslims made no effort to blend in with the local population. Instead, Muslims banded together, taking over neighborhoods and eventually driving out the non-Muslims. Any acceptance of the local culture and customs was strongly discouraged and often severely punished. These Muslim neighborhoods set up their own legal system of Islamic law, ignoring the laws of the land. Immigrants were encouraged to have very large families to form huge voting blocks to maneuver Muslims into positions of power within the government. Islam in Africa has been much bolder in the power grab of third world countries with uneducated and poor citizens often living under corrupt governments. Again, large numbers of Muslims would move into a country such as Nigeria and Sudan. Slowly growing in numbers, Muslims would either create a majority to take control of the government via a legal vote as in Nigeria, or by genocide as in Sudan. In tiny Rwanda, Islam used the war between the Hutu and the Tutsi tribes to convince those fleeing the carnage that Islam would protect them if they converted to Islam, and many converted to stay alive. Islam is now the majority in many African countries and in control of several governments. Whether by persuasion, reproduction, or mass murder, Islam is slowly taking control of the African continent. Not satisfied with Africa, Islam has moved swiftly into Asia. The terror arm of Islam has been busy in places like Bali reminding the local population that catering to Western infidels is dangerous business. Both Australia and Canada have had to fend off Islamic attempts to remove Muslim communities from the laws of the land and allow Sharia Law to govern the Muslim population in matters of divorce, marriage, and inheritance. Power grabs in strongly democratic countries has proven to be more of a challenge for Islam and it has regrouped to try again, this time, dropping the words, “Sharia Law” from their submissions for change that would place Islam in control of Muslim communities within democratic countries. The term “Islamic Sharia Law” has become well known and closely associated with the oppression within Islam and the wide disparity between the rights of Muslim men and women. Western cultures want nothing to do with a 7th century view of justice where hands and feet are chopped off and young women who are raped are forced to produce three male witnesses to the crime or be judged as adulterers. Public execution in the form of stoning does not have much support in a democracy. Many Islamic leaders state emphatically that Islam and democracy cannot co-exist. Muslims are expected to have only one master and that master is Islam. Islam dictates every aspect of their lives from birth to death. In America, Islam has had trouble gaining a real foothold. But Islam’s dictation to American Muslims is the same as illustrated by Omar Ahmad, the Council on American/Islamic Relation’s spokesman, when he publicly stated: "Those {Muslims} who stay in America should be open to society without melting, keeping mosques open so anyone can come and learn about Islam. If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam...Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth." In an effort to keep American Muslims under the total control of Islam, the Saudi Arabians have spent billions of dollars building mosques and Islamic schools so that Muslim children can be instructed in the strict laws of Islam. For decades, no one paid much attention to what was being taught in those Saudi-funded schools. Perhaps two generations of American Muslims were taught that Muslims are to be loyal to no country, only Islam. These children were taught that Christians and Jews were the enemy. They were taught that only Islam will dictate how they will live their lives. American children were being brainwashed right under our collective noses. Because of that, American Muslims are often torn between country and Islam and there is no way to know which force will win in the end. Islam has not grown in America as it has in Europe or Africa because of the strong Christian influence and democracy, so Imams and Muslim clerics were dispatched to the prison system to scoop up the disillusioned and those in need of something to belong to that claimed it would care about them and for them. In the general population, Islam has a tendency to attract those in need of someone to tell them how to live their lives while assuring them that their lives will be better. It’s unfortunate that people don’t remember the old saying, “If something sounds too good to be true, it probably isn’t.” This is a perfect description of Islam. When convincing people to convert, only the loving side of Islam shows itself. It isn’t until it’s too late that people become aware of the dark side of Islam. Islam is a shell game. Assisted by the “if it bleeds, it leads” motto of the media, Islam is able to keep the world’s attention on the terrorist attacks while “peaceful Islam” quietly goes about the business of taking over entire countries and working its way into the fabric of the legal and governmental systems of others. American Muslims are now petitioning that the call to prayer be blasted over loud speakers five times a day in quiet neighborhoods and towns. This is Islam’s next step in using democracy to destroy democracy. Always on the move, the quiet side of Islam is every bit as dangerous as the terrorists. The goals are the same, only the method varies. About the Writer: Barbara J. Stock is a registered nurse who enjoys writing about politics and current events. She has a website at http://www.republicanandproud.com/

13 Whow Razor. Heavy and true. Marko: You're right, we don't give a damn about the muslims. Can you think of a reason why? Friggin idiot.

14 Barbara Stock speaks the utter truth without flambouyancy or bias. Just the facts. Not one word of it can be denied.

15 Muslim as a religion has had 600 years less time to develop than christianity. Anybody recall what christianity was like 500 years ago ? Anyone recall any similarities between the bible and the Quaran. An eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth burning witches etc ... When ANY religion moves too far to the right bad things happen.

16 Now John Ryan is an apologist for the Muslim jihadists. You are a sick man. And Christianity has never taught that you should kill the non-believers. Good God, man, can you read?

17 Maybe Catholic church wasn't Christian when it ordered heretics and Jews as well as all people who question the faith to be burned, drowned and hung as witches and demons...

18 And an apologist also for christians ? Christianity has taught that it was necessary to kill non believers. It also taught to kill other christians whose beliefs were not considered proper doctrine. How long in our country"s past were catholics considered "Papists". Were not catholics considered to be as evil as blacks and jews by the right wing christian KKK ? Jesuslandjoe can you read ?http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=2&id=351579 http://www.sltrib.com/ci_3181941?rss I try to be equally critical of all who I see doing evil. Does the left or the right pontificate more on the lack of rights for women ? Well certainly, in muslim, countries neither do much....... if there is oil around. Right wing "islamofascits" seem to be acceptable to both as long as they keep that oil flowing.For myself I try to have only ONE moral standard: to which I hold everyone.

19 John, does the fact that Christians used to behave reprehensibly somehow make you feel better than one day soon you may be presented with the choice of converting to islam or getting your throat cut? I'm an atheist who used to be Christian, and I know all about the past crimes of Christians, but you know what? They're exactly that; in the past. Islam is currently the plague du jour, and I harbor little fear that the raving mad fundamentalist Southern Baptists up the road are going to come burn me out and hang me for heresy. I am an avowed atheist and will remain so until I die, but I will stand with the Christians and all civilized people against islam, now and forever.

20 Actually John the word is HAD - and even at its worst many opposed and eventually changed that. But that doesn't seem to matter to you. OK! John you win - glass houses and all .. I don't care what muslims do to or treat their women. I don't care about female circumcision in other cultures. I don't care about slavery still alive and well around the world. I don't care about killing infidels or heretics - its none of my business (besides (love this argument) "they've been killing each other for thousands of years". and on and on and on But please John - don't come back later with some cause you do care about and EXPECT others to embrace or even give a fuck. Don't show me some picture of starving babies in say Dafur - feed them - to the lions! your last line is funny!!! ONE MORAL STANDARD you hold for eveybody???? Isn't that the ultimate contradiction for a Moral Relativist!!!

21 John Ryan, Quote me some scripture in the New Testament that orders its adherants to kill anyone just because they do not believe in Christ. None exists and you know it. Did some people do the things you claim? Yes, but they could not honestly claim that they were supported by scripture. So much for your argument. Evil men have always existed. How about Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Ami, etc.? I could go on and on, but I made my point. And your standard is that of any other liberal. One set of rules for me and another set for everyone else. It's called hypocrisy.

22 Thanks for your input, "Greyrooster." I'm not at all clear as to which part of my post you were responding, but, hey, I'm glad that you can at least admit to being a racist... Awareness is the first step towards change, as they say. I wonder: How many of you actually KNOW a Muslim? Or even have met one? I mean, reading this and other so-called "conservative" blogs, I can only picture you people as fat, middle aged white men, living in a McMansion on a secluded all-white cul-de-sac, in a wealthy, mostly-white suburb, completely surrounded by people who look, think, act, eat, worship, breathe, fuck, and shit EXACTLY like you. Yeah, yeah, I know: You wouldn't want to hang with those mediaeval savage raghead monsters, anyhow. But how can you form a proper opinion when you're just sitting there in front of your computer, quite possibly nude, bouncing racial epithets off of your fellow fat, middle-aged white guys? Instead of another evening masturbating to Fox News (or is that part of the "MSM," too?), why not get off your big ol' pasty asses, get out of your big plastic house, and drive your big plastic car to a kebab joint. Sit down, clear the foam from your lips, smoke some shisha with the locals, and chill the fuck out. All that rage is bad for you. And I do care, honest.

23 Wow, Marko, that's so... deep. Let me guess; you're about ninteen-ish, white, middle class, college student, liberal arts major, etc., right? Probably never been to more than say, half a dozen cities, and a couple of countries in your life, including possibly Canada, Mexico or France on your high school trip? Lived a good life in the suburbs, raging against your allowance to show your friends that your corporate parents don't control you? Like to go to raves and be a rebel, exactly like everyone you know? Belong to Greenpeace and voted for Kerry? Well as for me: Fat? No, but stocky at 5'8" and 200 lbs. of mostly (fairly) solid muscle and a little middle age spread. I figure what the hell though, it happens to the best of us. Middle aged? Does 37 count? White and male? Unashamedly so, unlike you, apparently. McMansion? Hmmm, does a two bedroom, two bath without a garage in a blue collar suburb count, with two gay guys living across the street and a black disabled Vietnam veteran on one side, and a single mother on the other, count? More like a Central Park mansion, (If you don't know what Central Park is, it's one of those drive-up, two-story burger shacks). My neighbors do not look like me, I don't inquire how they think, eat, or worship, and I'm pretty sure I don't want to know how the two across the street fuck, though you might be interested. (Wink, wink, say no more!) And I can type in the nude if I want to, and it's none of your goddamn business you pathetic little shit. This is America, after all. As far as hanging with those "mediaeval savages", I have spent time in Saudia Arabia and Iraq. I got to watch a man get beheaded in Jubail, and was invited to dinner with some nomads in Iraq, and they let me, as the honored guest, kill the sheep, so I'm guessing I know a little more about them than you do. I also shop at a Pakistani grocery and eat at a Lebanese falafel shop, a Jordanian deli, and a Palestinian burger joint regularly. Some are actually quite decent people, but these are generally a minorty, with most being either unfriendly or outright hostile. I have known and currently know infinitely more Middle Easterners and muslims than you ever will, so shut the fuck up you stupid little bootlicking dhimmi libtard sycophant. The sooner you and your kind are exterminated the better off the world will be. Now go fuck off and protest something little kiddie.

24 Marko: Ever think that we tried all the silly bullshit you expound years before you thought of it. That is why we act like we do. I know them because I spent 3 years living with them. (if you call it living).

25 Marko: This is the Jawa Report. You are a Jawa. So we report on what you say. And what you say is the same old muslim hugging shit we have heard for years. What's important is that Jawas don't count. Have you read Jawas explained? Top left side of blog. Read it. Then you will understand how we feel. If you don't like it. Leave and find a blog that agrees with your muslim ass kissing philosophy. JOHN RYAN: Now I know what Arnold means by girlyboy.

26 Hey, thanks for the advice, guy. That's great: I'm a Jawa! Oh, the joys of racist right-wing blog slang! (I hope George Lucas doesn't find out that you guys are using his trademarked alien names as a subtitute for "sand nigger," though) And I'm part of it!!! Hey, dude, say "Religion of Peace, my ass!" That would ROCK. So, what turned you into such a sad, racist old man, "Greyrooster?" I mean, I'm roughly the same age as "Imbprobulus Maximus," and I'm not horrible and bitter, and certainly not a racist. Are you overweight? Cul-de-sac, McMansion, all that? I want to help you, I do. But I need to understand you. What makes someone like you tick? Anyways, back to the topic: Did you even bother to read my first post on this topic? Please do. And explain to me how it's incorrect. As you're an expert on Rajasthani folk customs, I'm sure you'll have no problem putting me in my place. How was this the result of "sharia law," and not primitive tribal customs and clan rivalries? What evidence is there to support the "sharia" claim, other than that some guy in a tinfoil hat "knows" it? And how does pointing out glaring inaccuracies and outright lies in a blog post make me a "Muslim hugger?" (Sounds a bit like "nigger lover," no?) Please respont forthwith.

27 "Muslim as a religion has had 600 years less time to develop than christianity." If the rest of the world, not just Christians, hadn't moved on to recognize human rights for ALL humans, I could understand the lack of enlightenment. But, no. Sorry, that doesn't pass the smell test.

28 European Islamic Uprising The main stream press has again failed in its duty to inform the public of crucial facts that may one day make all the difference when hard decisions will have to me made. To lay the blame for the Paris Islamic uprising exclusively on a few unemployed disenfranchised youths of North African origins without mentioning the self imposed getto mentality that is the hallmark of Islam in the West is irresponsible and dangerous to say the least. If they (the press) are doing this in the mistaken belief that by exposing Islam for what it is, Inspiration and validation for the actions of the rioters will offend the Muslims. Then they have missed the point completely, the Muslims are already offended and have found everything we in the West have done since the 7th century offensive. As you know the uprising has spread to several cities outside of Paris and there are unconfirmed reports that cars have been torched in other countries with large Muslim minorities. Just as the Palestinian rock thrower has become the signature if their Intifada, I am inclined to think the torching of cars and schools will become the signature of the European Islamic uprising to be used every time the Muslim sensibilities are offended. I also feel that as the situation deteriorates, homicide bombings in Europe will become the norm as it is in Israel. If and when the French Government regains control of the situation, It's only going to be temporary unless they stop living in denial and start applying extreme politically incorrect solutions to this extreme situation. Failing that, something will inevitably offend the Muslims in the future and cars will be set ablaze again. "If they didn't come here, into our area, nothing would happen. If they come here it's to provoke us, so we provoke back." Paris Muslim complaining about the Police.

29 Riots have now continued for eight days in and around Paris. Thursday night, November 3, Muslim rioters burned 315 cars. In the previous week, they torched 177 vehicles and burned numerous businesses, a post office, and two schools. They have rampaged through twenty towns and shot at police and firemen. In an episode that summed up the failure of France's efforts to create a domestic, domesticated Islam, when moderate Muslim leader Dalil Boubakeur, head of the Paris mosque, tried to restore calm, his car was pelted with stones and he had to rush away. The riots began on October 27 when two Muslim teenagers ran from police who were checking identification papers -- why they ran is as yet unclear. The police did not chase them, but evidently the teenagers thought they were being chased; they eventually hid in an electrical power sub-station, where they accidentally electrocuted themselves. That night young Muslims took to the streets for the first time, throwing rocks and bottles at police, burning cars, and vandalizing property. The next day rioters, throwing rocks, bottles, and Molotov cocktails, injured twenty-three police officers in the Paris suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois. The violence continued over the next few days: more destroyed vehicles and injured police officers. Then on Sunday, October 30, a tear gas shell hit a mosque, further enraging local Muslims; French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy stated somewhat cryptically, "I am, of course, available to the imam of the Clichy mosque to let him have all the details in order to understand how and why a tear gas bomb was sent into this mosque." Since then the riots have continued unabated, defying appeals for calm from French President Jacques Chirac and others. The crisis now threatens to swamp the French government. Why have the riots happened? From many accounts one would think that the riots have been caused by France's failure to implement Marxism. "The unrest," AP explained, has highlighted the division between France's big cities and their poor suburbs, with frustration simmering in the housing projects in areas marked by high unemployment, crime and poverty." Another AP story declared flatly that the riots were over "poor conditions in Paris-area housing projects." Reuters agreed with AP's attribution of all the unrest to economic injustice, and added in a suggestion of racism: "The unrest in the northern and eastern suburbs, heavily populated by North African and black African minorities, have been fuelled by frustration among youths in the area over their failure to get jobs and recognition in French society." Deutsche Presse Agentur called the high-rise public housing in the Paris suburbs "a long-time flashpoint of unemployment, crime and other social problems." One might get the impression from this that France is governed by top-hatted, cigar-smoking capitalists, building their fortunes on the backs of the poor, rather than by socialists and quasi-socialists who have actually strained the economy by spending huge amounts of money on health and welfare programs. Nor does the idea that the rioting has been caused by economic inequalities explain why Catholics and others who are poor in France have not joined the Muslims who are rioting. Of course, all the news agencies have either omitted or mentioned only in passing that the rioters are Muslims at all. The casual reader would not be able to escape the impression that what is happening in France is all about economics -- and race. The areas hardest hit by the riots, according to Reuters, are "home to North African and black African minorities that feel excluded from French society." AP shed some light on this feeling of exclusion: "the violence also cast doubt on the success of France's model of seeking to integrate its large immigrant community -- its Muslim population, at an estimated 5 million, is Western Europe's largest -- by playing down differences between ethnic groups. Rather than feeling embraced as full and equal citizens, immigrants and their French-born children complain of police harassment and of being refused jobs, housing and opportunities." So evidently France's failure to live up to its policy of playing down the differences between ethnic groups has bred the simmering anger that has now boiled over in the riots. However, in fact France has done just the opposite of playing down the differences between ethnic groups. In her seminal Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis, historian Bat Ye'or details a series of agreements between the European Union and the Arab League that guaranteed that Muslim immigrants in Europe would not be compelled in any way to adapt "to the customs of the host countries." On the contrary, the Euro-Arab Dialogue's Hamburg Symposium of 1983, to take just one of many examples, recommended that non-Muslim Europeans be made "more aware of the cultural background of migrants, by promoting cultural activities of the immigrant communities or 'supplying adequate information on the culture of the migrant communities in the school curricula.'" Not only that: "Access to the mass media had to be facilitated to the migrants in order to ensure 'regular information in their own language about their own culture as well as about the conditions of life in the host country."1 The European Union has implemented such recommendations for decades -- so far from playing down the differences between ethnic groups, they have instead stood by approvingly while immigrants formed non-assimilated Islamic enclaves within Europe. Indeed, as Bat Ye'or demonstrates, they have assured the Arab League in multiple agreements that they would aid in the creation and maintenance of such enclaves. Ignorance of the jihad ideology among European officials has allowed that ideology to spread in those enclaves, unchecked until relatively recently. Consequently, among a generation of Muslims born in Europe, significant numbers have nothing but contempt and disdain for their native lands, and allegiance only to the Muslim umma and the lands of their parents' birth. Those who continue to arrive in Europe from Muslim countries are encouraged by the isolation, self-imposed and other-abetted, of the Islamic communities in Europe to hold to the same attitudes. The Arab European League, a Muslim advocacy group operating in Belgium and the Netherlands, states as part of its "vision and philosophy" that "we believe in a multicultural society as a social and political model where different cultures coexist with equal rights under the law." It strongly rejects for Muslims any idea of assimilation or integration into European societies: "We do not want to assimilate and we do not want to be stuck somewhere in the middle. We want to foster our own identity and culture while being law abiding and worthy citizens of the countries where we live. In order to achieve that it is imperative for us to teach our children the Arabic language and history and the Islamic faith. We will resist any attempt to strip us of our right to our own cultural and religious identity, as we believe it is one of the most fundamental human rights." AEL founder Dyab Abou Jahjah, who was himself arrested in November 2002 and charged with inciting Muslims in Antwerp to riot (Belgian Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt said that the AEL was "trying to terrorize the city"2), has declared: "Assimilation is cultural rape. It means renouncing your identity, becoming like the others." He implied that European Muslims had a right to bring the ideology of jihad and Sharia to Europe, complaining that in Europe "I could still eat certain dishes from the Middle East, but I cannot have certain thoughts that are based on ideologies and ideas from the Middle East." What kind of ideologies? Perhaps Hani Ramadan, grandson of Muslim Brotherhood founder Hasan Al-Banna and brother of the famed self-proclaimed moderate Muslim spokesman Tariq Ramadan, gave a hint when he defended the traditional Islamic Sharia punishment of stoning for adultery in the Paris journal Le Monde. In Denmark, politician Fatima Shah echoed the same sentiments in November 2004. That same month, filmmaker Theo Van Gogh, who had made a film, Submission, about the oppression of women by Islamic law, was murdered in Holland by a Muslim, Mohammed Bouyeri. Bouyeri later declared in court: "I did what I did purely out my beliefs. I want you to know that I acted out of conviction and not that I took his life because he was Dutch or because I was Moroccan and felt insulted." In other words, his problem was religious, not racial: Van Gogh had blasphemed Islam, and so according to Islamic law he had to die. Significantly, Bouyeri maintained during his trial that he did not recognize the authority of the Dutch court, but only of the law of Islam. How many European Muslims share the sentiments of Mohammed Bouyeri? How many of these are rioting this week in Paris? Alleviating Muslim unemployment and poverty will not ultimately do anything to alter this rejection of European values by growing numbers of people who are only geographically Europeans. And the problem cannot be ignored. For France is not alone: Muslims in Århus, Denmark have also been rioting this week. And in France, Sarkozy recently revealed that this week's riots are just a particularly virulent flare-up of an ongoing pattern of violence: he told Le Monde that twenty to forty cars are set afire nightly in Paris' restive Muslim suburbs, and no fewer than nine thousand police cars have been stoned since the beginning of 2005. Blame for the riots in France has thus far focused on Sarkozy's tough talk about ending this violence. On October 19 he declared of the suburbs that "they have to be cleaned -- we're going to make them as clean as a whistle." Six days after this, Muslim protestors threw stones and bottles at him when he visited the suburb of Argenteuil. He has been roundly criticized for calling the rioters "scum"; one of them responded, "We're not scum. We're human beings, but we're neglected." However, as a solution the same man recommended only more neglect, saying of the Paris riot police: "If they didn't come here, into our area, nothing would happen. If they come here it's to provoke us, so we provoke back." Others complained of rough treatment they have received since 9/11 from police searching for terrorists: "It's the way they stop and search people, kneeing them between the legs as they put them up against the wall. They get students mixed up with the worst offenders, yet these young people have done nothing wrong." But of course, all these problems are exacerbated by the non-assimilation policy that both the French government and the Muslim population have for so long pursued: the rioters are part of a population that has never considered itself French. Nor do French officials seem able or willing to face that this is the core of their problem today. It is likely that the riots will result only in intensification of the problems that caused them: if French officials offer an accommodation to Muslims, it will probably result only in further intensification of the Islamic identity, often in its most radical manifestations, among French Muslims. The French response to the riots is likely to unfold along the lines of a decision by officials in Holland last May: they declined to ban a book called De weg van de Moslim (The Way of the Muslim), even though it calls for homosexuals to be thrown head first off tall buildings. The Amsterdam city council did not want to contravene "the freedom to express opinions." That decision is a small example of what the Paris riots demonstrate on a large scale: the abject failure of the multiculturalist philosophy that disparate groups can coexist within a nation without any idea that they must share at least some basic values. The French are paying the price today for blithely assuming that France could absorb a population holding values vastly different from that of the host population without negative consequences for either. That French officials show no sign, on the eighth day of the Paris riots, of recognizing that this clash of values is the heart of the problem only guarantees that before they will be able to say that their difficulties with their Muslim population are behind them, many more cars will be torched, many more buildings burned, and many more lives destroyed. By Robert Spencer FrontPageMagazine.com Robert Spencer is a scholar of Islamic history, theology, and law and the director of Jihad Watch. He is the author of five books, seven monographs, and hundreds of articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism, including Islam Unveiled: Disturbing Questions About the World’s Fastest Growing Faith and The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades). He is also an Adjunct Fellow with the Free Congress Foundation

30 Paris Islamic Uprising A solution perhaps? I think that it's time for the French military to ruthlessly crush this nonsense, their Govt should deport all immigrants of Islamic origin who have not been gainfully employed for the last year and detain French Muslim citizens until they have been re-educated and deemed suitable for full integration into a civilised society. Multi Culturism only works when the invited culture has something positive to add to society and through out history, Islam has repeatedly failed to pass the test.

31 Hi, "Razor." Did you have anything to add, other than mindless copy-and-pastes? You know, anything actually related to the topic of Mukhtaran Bibi and brutal tribal customs in Rajasthan. If so, please share. Or were you just trying to drown out my criticism with a barrage of pre-chewed bologna? Nah...

32 Marko: Nice comeback. Can't argue the facts? Attack the messenger. Here's a quick lesson, mkay? TRIBALISM IS PART AND PARCEL OF ISLAM. Thank you.

33 Marko, If you dont see the authers credentials at the bottom of the post, I wrote it. I feel that its important that I post these unbiased articles because the mainstream apoligist politicaly correct press is obscuring the real issue, Islam is not coplatable with modern civilization. Never has and never will.

34 Oh and Marko .... if you really want so badly to hijack a thread and demand that one address your concerns without regard to what the host started, it might be a good day to start your own blog.

35 Oh, two of you! Let's start wiiiiiith... "Razor!" OK. Maybe I'm a bit dense, but where does it say that the article you copy-and-pasted was written by "Razor?" It says it was written by a Robert Spencer, for StormFront.org or something. Is that you? Is "Razor" just your stage name? Anyways, none of it has anything whatever to do with the topic of Mukhtaran Bibi, does it? Aaaaaand... "Oyster." Thanks for the words, and I value your input. We'll have to agree to disagree about whether or not I'm attempting to hijack the thread, I think. I can't really see how my actions could be so construed. After all, I'm the *only* one who's discussing the topic that "the host started," if you'd care to check. Also, you wrote, in stunning ALLCAPS, that "TRIBALISM IS PART AND PARCEL OF ISLAM." This isn't the point we're arguing, though I'm sure that would be an interesting debate. I was disputing "Howie's" assertion that NPR was whitewashing their story on Mukhtaran Bibi by saying that her rape was the result of "tribal custom," not "sharia law." And, in this, "Howie" is demonstrably incorrect. Read up on the story, in any source, and you'll see that I'm correct. Gang-rapes happen, in Muslim Rajasthan, in Hindu Rajasthan (Google "Bhanwari Devi," for some good srticles on that) and in Christian America. Such horrors are in no need of embellishment. But "Howie" claims that he "knows" it was "sharia law," KNOWS it. But what is his source? He has none. It's a prejudiced hunch, nothing more. It's horrible what happened to this woman, but skewing the facts so that they support his racist world views will not help her. Lastly, I will tell you once again: the gang-rape was condemned by the local imam, and it is because of this imam that the word got out about the rape, and that Mukhtaran Bibi is now a hero to millions. This woman has been gang raped, braved death threats, and more. Please don't taint her accomplishments with your vitriolic hatemongering.

36 Marko: You seem to be drawn to the word nigger. Are you one? Or as you say. A sand nigger. Are they the same? Mukhtaran Bibi is now a hero to millions. Perhaps. But what about the other millions and millions of backward animals that agree with such bullshit. Quit making excuses for the inexcusable. Only Islam allows and breeds this shit. John Ryan brings up that muslims are behaving like Christians 600 years ago. THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE BEEN SAYING LEFTARD. The scum bag muslims are 600 years behind. They produce nothing, they invent nothing, they achieve nothing. Everything a muslim country does that is progressive is copied from others. I doubt that the backward shits can even produce a light bulb. And if they did they would have to get the idea and machinery from others. The only thing Islam produces in pain, suffering and injustice. And Islam is the reason. In fact Islam is the reason they can't progress with the rest of the world.

37 Marko are you dense or what? If the authors name appears ot the botom portion of the post for example: By Robert Spencer or Barbara J. Stock, that means they wrote it and Posted by Razor means I posted it not wrote it. But just like a Muslim you obscure the issues getting stuck on minor details, while denying the real issues. ISLAM Futhermore if you are so concerned about copyright, you should go to the Muslim world where 95% of the worlds pirated eletronic media emminates and start an anti pirating campange.

38 "Muslim as a religion has had 600 years less time to develop than christianity." Talk about a sorry excuse to explain IslamÂ’s penchant for mindless violence and backwardness. John RyanÂ’s explanation has help me put everything into perspective. I believe John is saying that, Islam is an inferior and defective product because they (Muslims) even after Allah having perfected religion for another 600 years before enslaving them with it, have not been able to evolve into the 21st century. In fact Islam hasnÂ’t evolved past the 7th century, when it was founded. Why is that? Muslim believe that the Koran is the word of Allah, verbatim as dictated to Mohammed the prophet. Therefore if itÂ’s the word of god it cannot be changed, debated or criticised (thatÂ’s in the Koran) under the penalty of death. So for Infidels and true Muslims, who are not hypocrites, every word must be obeyed or you are condemned to hell, and thus makes every word of it as relevant now as they were then. Therefore if Islam is still around in a thousand years it will still be as backward then as the day it was founded. If it were as simple as Johns simple minded explanation, Judaism which had a couple thousand of years head start would have a couple thousand years progress to show for it and that just isnÂ’t the case. I have nothing against Muslims, in fact I feel sorry for them. After all they are the first victims of Islam.

39 Ah, what a beautiful morning! And what's this? "Greyrooster" AND "Razor?" Somebody loves me! But, as usual, the topic was barely mentioned, and my facts, untouchable as they are, still lay there, untouched. I guess that makes me right! Anywho, to respond: "Razor": Ah, so ignore those pesky details, and just paste regurgitated off-topic drivel. Anything to add ON-topic? "Greyrooster": Really? Only "Islam allows and breeds this shit?" So, what, all rapes are the work of Muslims? No gang rapes in St.Louis? Ah, you just mean over there, in Ragheadistan. So, what about the Hindus of Rajasthan? Did Islam make the high-caste Hindu thugs rape Bhanwari Devi? Oh, wait... You probably don't care for Hindus, either, right? My bad. Oh, and since you guys LOVE to copy-and-paste, I'll join in. Here's a one of my absolute faves from the Jawa Report. A little gem written by you, "greyrooster." "I seen a muslim piece of shit at wal-mart in St Louis today. Him and his ugly family wearing their stupid scarfs and ugly cloths. I wanted to punch his face to pieces so bad only my wife could contain me. This shit should not walk the streets of America. I know in my heart they are the enemy and will turn on us. Why the hell does this stupid liberal dipshit government allow the bastards to immigrate here. Look at the fucking mess they have caused in Europe. TIME TO GET DOWN AND LET THE ANIMALS KNOW THEY ARE NOT WELCOME HERE. And piss on the liberal ass kissing laws that caused this mess. I promise to do my part." Posted by greyrooster at October 2, 2005 08:52 PM First of all, beautiful prose, there. So, you saw a Muslim family, and your first reaction was to murder them? Fascinating! I can almost hear your great, pasty thighs quivering with rage! You show those dirty animals! Rats, they're like rats, I tell you! Bleeding this country dry! Guuuaaaagghhhhhhh!!!! But, you know... since you're so ready to "do your part," I've got a suggestion for you: Instead of waddling around a St. Louis Wal-Mart in an undersized golf shirt, fantasizing about murdering men in front of their children, why not head over to Iraq and fight these "animals" over there? I mean, you're obviously up for it. And your "wife" wouldn't be able to stop you there, oh no! You'd be able to kill whomever you pleased! Rivers of dirty Muslim blood! So... what's stopping you, guy? You promised!

40 There is evidence, however slight, that some Muslims do indeed attempt to move toward the same century that everyone else is in. It's part of the reason there are so many sects (as Christianity has). The problem is that there are those sects, Wahabism and Qtubism in particular, who use extreme violence to force others into their 7th century brand of Islam. You're only technically right, Marko, in saying that it was "primitive tribal customs and clan rivalries" but, as I gave you in ALL CAPS, much of it is part of sharia law. Punishment is exacted to diferent degrees according to how each sect interprets Sharia law. The difference is that it's extremely rare when punishment is meted out, and not to exact sharia law, that little if anything is ever done about it. What do you think the rapists will get for punishment? I've read too many accounts of women being mutilated, raped, burned to death, stoned, out right killed, you name it, and the perpetrators get 30 days in jail or a slap on the wrist. So far, Mukhtar Bibi is still waiting for justice. And the prime reason why is that a male dominated society is loathe to recognize her as equal in the eyes of the law. Sharia law. There are some American Muslims who say that sexual violence is not, nor has ever been, a legitimate means of punishment in Islam. The key phrase is "in Islam". Yet, it is specifically shown, time and time again in the Koran by Mohammed himself, that it was quite alright to do so in the conquest of other peoples. Had Mukhtar Bibi been anything other than a Muslim woman, this would never be known world-wide. And still, even being a Muslim woman, she can't get justice. These "tribal customs" evolve from Sharia law and Islamic doctrine, even if they aren't to the exact specifications related in the Koran. Hence, again, the many sects of Islam and their interpretaions of the Koran. I watched myself on Arabic TV (over the web) how an Imam sat there stone faced showing what size stick was appropriate for beating one's wife with. "This one is too small, this one too large, but this one is 'just right'." To put the emphasis on "tribal custom and clan rivalries" without reference to the fact that it's in deeply rooted Muslim communities, cities and countries is disingenuous.

41 http://iqna.ir/NewsBodyDesc_en.asp?lang=en&ProdID=31880 Sudanese Priests Convert to Islam 10/20/2005 Some 65 priests from Southern Sudan embraced Islam, according Al Khabar newspaper. The inheritance law of Islam is the major factor that attracted them to Islam, said deputy secretary general of the Islamic Solidarity Organization. The number of people who embraced Islam in Sudan from 2003 until the end of 2004 reached 88,000. Training programs and religious classes were offered to the new converts for a period of one month. This helps the new believers to spread the message of Islam among their people. IINA (Marko, because you a little denser than your average tard everything above this line was written by a Muslim news agency. What follows was written by me.) In Southern Sudan where the Christian minority is afforded second class citizens status, as they are in all Muslim countries, the only way to break the cycle of servitude, poverty and discrimination is to convert to Islam. While there is usually no overt religious compulsion to convert Islam, as in someone putting a gun to their heads saying "you must become a Muslim". The reality is, wherever there are Muslim majorities, the political, legal and socioeconomic restriction placed on the infidel population under Muslim rule really gives them no choice but to convert if they have any hope of alleviating their undue hardships. Note that they claim that nearly 90 000 kafirs (filthy infidels) embraced Islam in less than a year. It must be really rough on the minorities there, also Muslims just love to brag about the numbers. Also note that you don't even have to have a clue what their religion is about, you convert they give you a month long course and if you want to change your mind, not a problem, you become a Apostate and them they can execute you. Lovely isn't it? And we in the west don't give a rats ass about it. Any comments?

42 Marko, excellent point about rape, but after consulting my copy of the New Testament over and over again, I still cant find any reference that condones rape in any context. For Christ sake, there isnÂ’t even a Jesus parable that come remotely close to endorsing that kind of behaviour. Perhaps I just have an outdated version, I am saying this because the version you seem to be using as a reference to condemn everyone other than Muslims has a Koranic twist to it. And it just wont do to have an outdated version of the word of God. Wait a minute. According to the Prophet Mohammed, Islam is the third and perfected revelation from God, Version 3.0 with no updates because its perfect. Using Gods word V 3.0, there is ample justification for raping , lying, cheating, assassination , war mongering, reneging on treaties, pedophilia, torture, genocide, discrimination, looting, terrorism and drinking camel urine. Marko, you have convinced me to convert to Islam, it has it all. After 10 years of satanic devil worship, I finally feel ready to join the major league. Marko, because you are easily confused, I wrote everything above this line.

43 What is it about these libtard losers like Marko, greg, and DSM, that makes them think that anyone gives a good flying damn about what they say? To Razor: we're glad to have you; you make more sense than most, so keep on posting, and don't let Marko's idiotarianism bother you, because when they pick you to snivel and whine at, then you know you've spoken the truth, and that just kills them.

44 Marko you simple minded raghead. I'm to old to go to Iraq. I did serve in Vietnam. Mr father died in ww2. My son Scott is a Captain in the United States Marine Corps now serving his second term in Iraq. He and his men kills ragheads for me. So I don't need to go. But I would be glad to. Once again you little shit. You have no idea who you are talking to or about. As others have said. Who gives a shit about what you think. Jawas are to be shit upon. Not listened to. You and they are filth. Nothing more.

45 Peaceful Islam in Action Muslim Attacks Incite Violence in Niger State, Nigeria http://www.crosswalk.com/news/religiontoday/1360757.html

46 Ooh, sorry about the absence, fellas. I was down in New Orleans, heroically gaping at the carnage. Good times, good times... So where where we? Ah yes... So, I'm really a bit disappointed. All I really wanted was for you guys to look into the true story of Mukhtaran Bibi, and perhaps learn to question your sources. Namely, Howie's ridiculous entry that is the source of this thread. Not by reading yet another racist op-ed piece, or some rubbish right-wing news article that tells you the story the way you, perversely, want it to be. But the simple, unvarnished truth, from multiple, truly unbiased sources, thousands of which are literally at your fingertips. But you didn't. I know you didn't. How? What am I, psychic? Nah: Throughout this thread, in several posts, I've intentionally included a big, fat, glaring ERROR. An error that anyone who'd actually read even a biased report on Mukhtaran Bibi would spot, and, naturally, call me on. But nothing. Not one of you did. So, boys, I must say: I'm disappointed in you. But a big old "Marko Rules!" iron-on patch to the first guy who find it! So... individual responses: "Oyster": I'm not saying that tribal brutality isn't deeply ingrained in many Muslim cultures. I would argue that, in the case of Mukhtaran Bibi, these are pre-Islamic traditions, as evidenced by the fact that the same practices are common to many of the tribal peoples in the region, regardless of religion. Of course there's nothing wrong with opposing insane Muslim tribal practices. But anyone who claims that this insanity is unique to Muslims is either deluded or dishonest. Poverty, neglect, and underdevelopment, coupled with a long, violent history (stretching into pre-Islamic times) as a regional borderland, are at the root of the problem here. These are the things holding the people there back, not Islam. We've got some fairly crazy-ass shit in the Bible, too. But we've learned to ignore much of it, for the most part. Why?The "Christian world" is relatively wealthy and well-educated, and our nations are generally much more stable than the poverty-wracked, colonial creations that are the nations of "Islamic world." But in places where the Christians are as poor and neglected as Mukhtaran Bibi's people, such as in a Brazilian favela, or even moderately poor, as in America's ghettoes, you see insane amounts of violence. By Christians, and NOT because of their faith, but because they are poor, hopeless, and pissed off about it. This is not a religious issue. We're not talking "terrorism" here. And yet, despite this being obvious, you continue to blame Islam for such violence. Why? Yeah, I get it: you guys hate Muslims. But are you insistent on being "set in your ways" that you've become completely incapable of learning? Why would you wish to remain so blind to the obvious truths? What would draw someone to inhabit a hateful place such as this? I mean, *I'm* here because this "blog" has an overtly racist bent, as do most of its posters, and I enjoy mocking and challenging such people. But who actually comes here for news? There is nothing here. Just hateful gloating followed by ape-like war whoops and back-patting. For instance, there are TONS of sensationalist posts about the so-called "immigrant" riots in Paris, which have caused exactly ONE death, but nothing about the much, much deadlier SECULAR (though Christian-led) riots in Ethiopia. Is this really the "unbiased" information you presumably crave? Is it really so interesting to huddle with masses of like-minded old men and crow about the latest violent headlines that validate your racist views? I think that many of you are capable of better (and, no, not Greyrooster), and I hope you'll learn to think for yourselves. "Razor": So, where does it condone rape in the Qur'an? Presumably, you've got a copy of that, too, since you're spouting off on the subject. Right? And thanks for more off-topic copy-and-pastes and links. "Improbulus Maximus": Finally! "Idiotarianism!" You've made my day. Please, PLEASE say something about the "MTM" or how I'm blaming the "Jooooooooooos." Ooh, ooh! Call me a "moonbat!" Mindless mimickry at it's best! "Greyrooster": So, you're too old and frail to go to Iraq? What, a bad-ass veteran like you can't just buy a ticket to Iraq, buy a gun (they're everywhere over there!), and teach those dirty Arabs a lesson, Rambo-style? I mean, you did "promise to do (your) part, no? Well, if not actual dangerous fighting, what would your "part" entail, then? Just prowling your local Wal-Mart, pimpled buttocks clenched in rage, one eye keeping watch for any uppity dune-coons with the termerity to cross your path, the other for any bargain American flag-print socks? Important work, indeed! But are you sure you're up to that, even? I mean, when you were planning to murder that Muslim man and his "ugly family," your frggin' "WIFE" was able to restrain you. And I imagine she's either some frail old gobbler or a malnourished Filipina mail-order slag. So, do you really think you have what it takes to kill some Arab dude in his fucking PRIME? I just can't picture it. Rather, I see you, on the floor, sobbing, clutching your ruptured colostomy bag like it's your mommy. Good luck, though, you big bad neo-Nazi, you.

47 Marco, Of course I have a copy of the Koran. But not just any copy, I have an un-sanitized version that was translated and published before the Muslims realized that that it could actually be used against them by a filthy Kafir. Even better I have a copy of the hadiths (the Life Of Mohammed). I also have a copy of “Reliance of the Traveler” But you being a dumb ass probably don’t know what that’s about. Copy of Pact of Umar? Got that too. Copy of Ayatollah Khomeini’s Green book? Still looking for it. But its very interesting because it give the correct procedures for molesting little girls as young as 5 until they menstruate. By following these koranic procedures the girl is not considered damaged goods by Allah thus daddy can still charge full price for the dowry. I just love this Islam, it just get more depraved the deeper you look. First of all the Koran is a hodgepodge collection of “revelations” from Allah to the prophet that were assembled after his death. You need to have knowledge of the hadith to make any sense of it. Next the verses of the Koran is not even in the chronological order of their “revelations” That means that the earlier peaceful versus produced in Mecca at a time when Mohammed was still under the delusion that he could persuade Jews and Christians to embrace Islam were abrogated (cancelled) by the later in Medina, where he built his political and power base used it spread his “religion” by less than peaceful means. Now I believe I stated that the Koran gives ample justification for raping, lying, cheating, assassination, war mongering, reneging on treaties, pedophilia, torture, discrimination, looting, terrorism, and my personal favourite, DRINKING CAMEL URINE. But I find it very interesting that you do not contest any of these facts other than the rape. We know that the reason you didn’t contest it is, because its all true. Back to rape now. Koran 033.050 Read it, weep and swill back some of that camel urine Mohammed was so fond of.

48 What the French Muslims want, They resent police searches for "sans-papiers" - illegal immigrants - and the constant threat of deportation hanging over them. They also want the right to vote, even for those without French citizenship. Many French Muslims demand more public recognition by the state, and resent the law which bans the wearing of Muslim headscarves. How the French Govt is dealing with it, The prime minister skirted round the highly sensitive issue of Islam, the religion of the great majority of the immigrants and their offspring. Proof that they (the French) still have their heads up their collective asses, Mr de Villepin said only that in France all faiths were respected. He acknowledged public concerns about the growth of radical Islamic thinking, but played down the urgency of the issue. I think I know how Churchill felt when he complained about Germany marching into Austria and Czechoslovakia and every one thought he was just paranoid.

49 ISLAMIC RAPE Marco, from the Noble Koran and the Hadiths “When a child or a woman is taken captive, they become slaves by the fact of capture, and the woman’s previous marriage is immediately annulled.” Why? So that they are free to become the concubines of their captors. The Qur’an permits Muslim men to have intercourse with their wives and their slave girls: “Forbidden to you are ... married women, except those whom you own as slaves” (Sura 4:23-24). After one successful battle, Muhammad tells his men, “Go and take any slave girl.” He took one for himself also. After the notorious massacre of the Jewish Qurayzah tribe, he did it again. According to his earliest biographer, Ibn Ishaq, Muhammad “went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for [the men of Banu Qurayza] and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches.” After killing “600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900,” the Prophet of Islam took one of the widows he had just made, Rayhana bint Amr, as another concubine. Emerging victorious in another battle, according to a generally accepted Islamic tradition, Muhammad’s men present him with an ethical question: “We took women captives, and we wanted to do ‘azl [coitus interruptus] with them.” Muhammad told them: “It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection.’” When Muhammad says “it is better that you should not do it,” he’s referring to coitus interruptus, not to raping their captives. He takes that for granted. I FIND IT IMPOSSIBLE TO FATHOM THAT HAVING SEX WITH A WOMAN WHOSE HUSBAND, FATHER, BROTHER AND (OR) SON YOU JUST MURDERED WOULD BE CONSENSUAL. THEREFORE BY ANY STANDARD EXCEPT ISLAMIC, IT IS RAPE.

50 Ok, Razor. Despite the fact that you copy-and-pasted your quotes from assorted holy books, rather than typed them out yourself, I'm willing to believe that you not only own these books, but have actually read them. Not owning a Qur'an myself, I'll even take your word for it that yout copy-and-paste is accurate. Thanks for the requested information! But, honestly, so what? We've got the same kind of justifications of rape and slavery in the Old Testament. As you said, the New Testament does not condone rape. But, perhaps more importantly, neither does it condemn it. I don't know about your ancestors, but if they were, like mine, Europeans, they were doing the same (and much worse) to their enemies around 600 CE. Pulling out before ejaculating in your rape victim was downright civilized by the standards of the 7th Century. But this is all besides the point. Yes, Muslim loonies justify their violent actions with crazy Qur'an quotes, just as Christian loonies justify their violent actions with crazy Bible quotes. I haven't denied that, have I? My point has been that Mukhtaran Bibi was not gang-raped as a result of "sharia law," and I have yet to be presented with any evidence that implies the contrary. Why? Because I'm right, and Howie was wrong. Disagree? Prove it. PS: And nice ALLCAPS, there, guy. I really felt like you were right here, yelling at me. Very effective!

51 I don't know if Marko will see this. Furthermore, I don't care. It's really not for him anyway, but for myself and others. The charge that I "hate Muslims" is just that. A charge leveled toward me by someone who knows nothing about me. So let's just put that aside. It's a petty accusation not worth trying to prove or disprove. However, his attempt to "educate" me, because I'm just so dumb I don't understand that tribalism is older than Islam, is silly. And to imply, or use the premise, that Islam is only "incidental" to the issue at hand is fallacious. These people continue to use Islam as justification to keep barbarous tribal customs in place. I never said these customs are "unique" to Muslims. I will say that it is common for Muslims to use their religion to justify it. "These are the things holding the people there back, not Islam." Wrong. We can argue the merits of Islam all day, but when the most influential and powerful in the Islamic world use the religion to keep their "flock" in check, by dictating every aspect of their lives from what size stick to beat their wives with to which hand they wipe their asses with (all in the Quran) - from keeping them isolated from the "iniquities" of the world around them to instilling fear of retribution for arbitrary "crimes against Islam" - I'd say Islam is part of the problem. "We've got some fairly crazy-ass shit in the Bible, too. But we've learned to ignore much of it, for the most part. Why?The "Christian world" is relatively wealthy and well-educated,...." Wrong again. You have it backwards. They are relatively wealthy and well-educated because they ignore the "crazy-ass shit" and stopped allowing the "crazy-ass" Cristian rulers to dictate to them anymore. Regardless of what the Quran "says", it is the interpretation of it and those who enforce that interpretation that is the root cause of their "poverty, neglect, and underdevelopment". There is poverty, neglect, and underdevelopment all over the world. But take a look at it throughout Indonesia, most of North Africa, all over the Middle East, the ghettoes in France and other eastern European cities and countries, Bombay, Calcutta, and Delhi in India (I won't go on) and in each case you'll find Muslim majorities. This is not just coincindental. Being taught, from day one, not to mingle with, have dealings with or fraternize with the "unclean", "subhuman" infidel they seal their fate. For those unclean and subhuman people would gleefully exercize free trade with them, share discoveries with them and work together with them to solve issues of disease and poverty elsewhere in the world which, would help to pull them out of their own poverty. Bringing up conflict in Ethiopia and attributing it to Christians is irrelevant. However, their population of Christians and Muslims is about an even split and their conflict is largely a territorial one with Eritrea, not religious (even though that conflict has brought up some destabilization between the two religions). Read some of their history as Somalia comes into play here too. It's not that I'm "so blind to the obvious truths". The fact is that all over the world fundamentalist Muslims have declared war against "the west". Even many of those who are not active participants are supportive of the destruction of the west. Islam is the main focus of attention and much discussion for the most obvious of reasons - because "they" have made it the focus. Now ... try and go tell "them", the Imams, Mullahs, Shaikhs and tribal leaders that Islam has nothing to do with it. Yes, they'll talk about the evils of the west but they won't be able to discuss it without bringing Islam into it and the "ultimate goal".

52 Despite the fact that you didnÂ’t respond to my post using cuneiform on a clay tablet, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you still have a few active brain cells. Copy and paste, its part of the 21st century. Get used to it. I find it appalling that you and a multitude of other so called free thinkers are defending the indefensible (Islam) without even having a cursory glance at the crap you are defending. By extension I am willing to bet that you donÂ’t even have a copy of the old testament to back up your nonsense about it condoning Koranic behaviour. And obviously you havenÂ’t read the new testament either. By the way my weekly grocery list doesnÂ’t condemn rape, so by your standards, I must condone it. Right? You still donÂ’t get it, Mohammed was not condemning rape, he was condemning pulling out before ejaculation because he needed more bastard children of Islam to carry on with Jihad in the way of Allah. You and a multitude of other drones are quick to say that the Koran is not alone; the Bible, the Old testament in particular, contains exhortations to violence. Even if this were true, its besides the point because it does nothing to explain why the world today is teeming with Muslim terrorist groups and not Christian ones. The difference is, people of all religions have committed mindless acts of violence in the name of their religion. But Islam has a long established tradition of interpreting the Koran to this end. And in fact demands it. Christian Martyrs meet their end by being persecuted unto death, while Islamic martyrs are homicide bombers. ThatÂ’s a big difference. Until you write back in cuneiform on a clay tablet, I will not acknowledge your posts.

1 If peace is to come, perhaps it will come from the Muslims who will decide to remake the face of Islam. That is what it will take, because as long as a large percentage of Muslims believe that the Koran should be literally followed up to and including violent jihad, peace will not come.

2 Lets hope a counter-reformation suggested catches on for everyone's sake.

3 There's certainly a lot of talk about remaking the face of Islam. Now let's see some action.

4 I highly doubt there will be a reformation of the Muslim faith, it could only come with removing a vast portion of Mohammed's fever dreams, especially every reference to killing Jews, and Christians. Anyone thing that will happen? they'll tamper with the words of Mohammed?

5 I don't think there'll be so much a reformation as a turning away. I know a Pakistani grocer who doesn't go to mosque except on holidays, and I met many of the local muslims at a wedding last year. Honestly, they are pretty much Americanized and seem rather happy to live in a place where they know their children aren't going to get snatched by the secret police or killed by random gunfire. Well, at least not on this end of town. I've had many conversations with him and his wife and they basically ignore the parts of the koran that don't fit in with their peaceful, prosperous existence, just as Christians ignore the parts of the Bible that urge them to stone children to death.

6 IM, christians don't stone children to death because Christ already paid the penalty for our sins. That was his whole purpose. What you should really be asking is why Jews don't stone their children to death.

7 Oh that there were more like this man. Many more. Wish I could write back to him to give my personal support. The best we can do is keep fighting for him and those like him. What are the chances this would ever be posted on sites like Kos, and DU? Slim and none, I'd say.

8 Oyster: email me and I'll forward the mail back to you if you like.

9 cept use the gmail addy cause that's where I got it.

10 Carlos, if Christians don't stone children because the OT is superceded by the NT, why do they insist on a literal interpretation of the creation per Genesis, which is demonstrably flawed in many ways? It is possibly to embrace the ideals of Jesus while disregarding the folk myths of a stone-age nomadic desert tribe, isn't it? After all, Buddha was from India, and Buddhists don't make a big deal about sticking to ancient Indian myths, though the Tibetans did manage to incorporate their own myths into Buddhism without becoming rigid orthodox literalists about it. Speaking of Buddhism, I believe that since Jesus' teaching were so radically different from orthodox Judaism, but strangely similar to those of Buddha, it's entirely possibly that his "missing years" from 12 to 33, I believe it was, were spent in India or perhaps Babylon or Afghanistan, beyond the reach of Herod or the Romans, where he learned from new teachers who had 500 years of Buddhist thought to teach from. Your thoughts?

11 hmm...quite intersting.

12 All: A Christian would say that Jesus (God) doesn't need to learn from anyone. And just because the OT laws regarding sacrifice were superceded by Christ's sacrifice in the NT doesn't make basic truths concerning the origins of the world, mankind, etc., as described in the OT invalid.

1 it still cant believe when they came to kidnap the journalist, they were driving a military car. the yemen government really is obscene. thank for the linkie rusty.

2 Hard to believe...not nearly as hard to believe, though, as PETER WELLER BEING A FREAKING PROFESSOR!!!!!!

3 The traditional Arabic coffee pot is an interesting creation. Full of dangley bangles, chains and whatnot. Furthermore the lid is hollow and the would put stones into that lid. Why? So, it could not be opened without someone knowing it. Why? That someone could be putting poison into it. Isn't it interesting this news is coming out right after the very public murder/execution/hit of Arafish's cousin?

4 That is 'interesting'. But, WHAT ABOUT PETER WELLERGATE!! Next we'll learn that Scott Baio is Professor of Sociology at UCLA.

5 Scott Baio would never dirty himself teaching Moonbat Crystal worship classes at Commie Univ! Scott Would teach a class with class like, how to properly utilize a headband or, how to nail older babes.

6 The liberal hollywood celeberties will have NO BLOOD FOR OIL bumper stcikers on their limos while driving to GREENPEACE HQ to oppse drilling in the ANWR what bunch of two faced idiots

7

Yes, but does Peter Weller still wear fake glasses without any glass in them?

And does his jet car still diesel when he turns it off?

And what WAS that watermelon there for, anyway?

Inquiring minds want to know...

1 Sorry, but I'm with the ACLU on the item posted above. As a Jew, I'd rather not swear on the New Testament. I can perfectly understand if a Muslim wishes to swear on a copy of the Koran. This is a case of simple religious tolerance and respect, not some creeping anti-christian bias. The judge is genuinely in breach of the Establishment Clause.

2 If the Dems go with Hillary it's a looser. They need new blood not the same old tired people they have now. Gingrich looks pretty good. I like him. I like McCain too. Already we have way better candidates. Even if ya don't like McCain he'll smoke Clinton. She's more of a turn off than Bill.

3 The last two chapters of a review of Weigel's book "The Cube and the Cathedral: Europe, America, and Politics without God": "In the book’s closing chapters, Weigel entertains a series of possible outcomes for Europe. The chances of the EU’s dream of a post-Christian perpetual peace are slim to none; Weigel more realistically predicts that Europe’s various muddles will persist into the foreseeable future. He finds hope for Continental renewal in the still active Catholicism of Central and Eastern European nations, and in a Continent-wide critical mass of energetic Catholic youth rejecting the wayward wobbles of recent generations for the deep reserves of Christian Europe. The darkest possible outcome, according to Weigel, would be “1683 Reversed”: the continued large-scale immigration into Europe of Muslims armed with very different ideas about religion and politics. If current trends continue, these immigrants would encounter a Continent equipped to welcome them with only self-inflicted cultural amnesia, watery pluralism, and mundane humanism. Passion for the crescent would overwhelm indifference to the Cross, and these new Europeans would take charge of a demographic and democratic wasteland. This last matter suggests most immediately why Americans have a stake in Europe’s future: Though it would take decades for such a situation to develop, a Europe potentially defined from its leadership down by a broadly anti-Western Muslim majority would pose striking civilizational challenges to the U.S. Yet for all his concern and complaint, Weigel refuses to abandon Europe to itself, and he demands the same of his readers — specifically in how we understand our own historical formation. Though patriotic amnesiacs may resist him, Weigel emphasizes that the success of the American experiment owes a great deal to the influence of Old World civilization. While qualifications and refusals of this fact have been made from Emerson’s time through our own, The Cube and the Cathedral makes powerfully clear the self-destructive consequences of squandering one’s inheritance."

4 ericj, if you follow the link you will find nowhere that I am against people swearing on the Koran. A liar will lie on whatever book you put in front of them. I just simply think it is hypocritical they fight Christianity symbols in the Court rooms but push Islam.

5 A muslim swearing on the koran that calls for the destruction of other religions. Good thinking Eric. All he needs is a fatwa from a bearded old uneducated goat herder saying its excusable. Why use any book? What's the matter with I swear to tell the truth and I better not get caught lying?

6 Eric: If you can side with the ACLU. I can side with the Palestinians. Occasionally the Palestinians make sense. The ACLU never does.

7 Oh, that's rich. Swear on a book that clearly states that it's okay to lie to the infidel. We're much better off simply saying we know if we get caught lying, then by the laws of this country, we're going to jail.

8 Yeah Joan Beaz listen to this dim-bulb and listen to this other dim-bulb sheenan blather blather blather cluck cluck cluck

9 People Keep on learnin' Soldiers Keep on Warrin' Was in fact made famous by Stevie Wonder and then covered by the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Not that I'm picking nits or anything.

1 ... with COUSIN Zeeshan? First cousins are illegal even in Usa, as far as I know, so actually it appears (they think) its more honorable to have a murderer in the family than a sukurutsari, whatever the word is in English. In which case, if it truly was an affair leading to inbreeding, I agree a murderer is less shameful.

2 Lol. Results from a "Which country would you delete if you could" in a very Finn-infected site. Usa,Usa,America,Usa, etc. ,then someone said "Ok, you can't drop Usa, since they make a lot of games" After: Sweden, Russia, Sweden, Sweden, Russia, then someone said "The games ain't that good, Japs and Brits make better" and again: Usa,Usa,America,Usa. Then someone said Finland and everyone after that: Sweden, Sweden, Sweden... (not difficult to guess it was a Swede). My point is? ...ummm, spam? Ok, I got it: Attitudes towards stuff are easy to swing when they are hate-based. Just takes a provided necessity or new target. (my presence is not for this purpose, even if some hateswings may have moved my way) It is actually the main population control method. "Don't hate us, hate those guys, since we're sending your kids and siblings to fight them / their economy is better and sucks all your money to supporting our collapsing one / they threaten our status as world police by uniting in a orderly fashion..." Indeed, my post quality is awful nowadays. Probably because of a sudden loss of interrest in politics after I started reading blogs...

3 Finn, first of all, you're an idiot, and you obviously enjoy being so. Second, almost everyone in the muslim world is married to their cousin. I know a Pakistani grocer who is married to his first cousin, and their parents were first cousins, as well as their grandparents. His wife told me how in the muslim world,(read: backward, tribal, primative), it's considered preferable to marry one's cousin, because that way no inter-clan or inter-tribal wars can erupt if the couple has an argument. Let me put it like this: They. Are. Primative. Savages.

4 Finn That conversation which took place on the internet was made possible by the US who gave the internet to the world for free. I suppose we should have charged to keep out the rif raf. BTW - Our games rock, so bite me.

5 Not to mention that Finn thinks murder is preferable to marrying a cousin. [sigh] For the most part, if anyone is punished *at all* for an honor killing in many Muslim countries the punishment is light. I've read cases where they went to jail for two or three months.

6 "Nevertheless, it appears that it's more honorable to have a murderer in the family than an lovemaker." the islamic world needs a good dose of liberalism and feminism. Make love not war.

7 more here: http://astuteblogger.blogspot.com/2005/08/whats-causing-muslim-nations-to-have.html and here: http://astuteblogger.blogspot.com/2005/08/muslim-demography-continued-polygamy.html these recent posts of mune relate demogrphoic data to ilamic misogyny, polygamy, and "honot killings." i conclude that: (a) if islam says it "honotable" to murder a female family member, OF COURSE they're gonna approve of murdering "infidels" (whuch includes many muslims!); and (b) that the misogynistic social customs of islam are apparent in all sorts of demographic data which demonstrate how pervasive the problem is.

8 Is it just my imagination, or did Finn used to make more sense in the old days? Finn, have you been hanging around with some new friends this summer? Perhaps the kind of boys your mom and dad really donÂ’t want you to play with? I hope you get back on track when school starts again. Once the first snows of September come, you should be up in your room studying like lst year.

9 A FINN did make more sense some time ago. I told A FINN to quit taking those cheap Russian drugs months ago. He obviously didn't listen. Who said they were 1st cousins? could they have been 2nd cousins? Some instruction in genetics and a stick would have achieved the same results. She must have forced Zeeshan as he didn't get shot. Just a reminder. Several years ago there was a case in the newspaper of a black man in Detroit on welfare that not only impregnated his daughter. but also his grand daughter. What happened? He was charged, given probation and increased the families welfare check. Does the A FINN solution apply here?

10 GreyRooster: Hmm... I think it does. Brad: No, I'm not hanging out with loonies. Defense Guy: Internet was built during the Cold War to make a connection network for your spies since the phones and satellites and such were spied on by the Soviets. So of course it was given for free, who would pay for another countrys spynetwork? And there was no way you could've kept it to yourself and monitored it, it got way too big way too fast... but that's not a bad thing, since now anyone in countries with no interrest in protecting foreign copyrights can get pointless entertainment in digital form, without the need to support it's creators with precious Euros/whatever, right after and sometimes before it's in stores or theaters.

1 Thanks for the link, Dr. Rusty! Just one question... If I'm a link whore, does that make you my trick???

2 My don't you join up for Round the Reader?

3 Thanks for the link. Your benevolence is kind and legendary. Cheers, Dave at Garfield Ridge

1 Real nice tune. Oh, and thanx for the website, it's bookmarked.

1 Total number of items about Brazilian bikini waxing: zero. Sigh.

2 You rotten so-and-so. No links to bikini waxed Brazilian tails?

3 I just wanted to say, "thanks for the link, Dr. Rusty!"

1 [Jake moves over to the Customers table] Jake: How much for the little girl? The women? How much for the women? Customer: What? Jake: Your women. I want to buy your women. The little girl, your daughters. Sell them to me. Sell me your children! Customer: Matre d'! Matre d'!

2 I would ask what the man expects to do with his new 11 year old daughter/wife, but I suspect the answer would make me sick and then possibly violent, so I'm going to pretend he is taking her to Disney World.

3 So what? She's just tissue that's been born. Right Butch?

4 She's a possession. Like an embryo only larger.

5 It also explains why people don't want to return to the 6th century.

6 Maybe she CHOSE this. It's all about choice, man. That makes it okay.

7 It's a cultural thing, and we know all cultures are equally good or bad.

8 Thanks for this story. I posted it on Gates under the "I Could Scream" banner. This kind of tribal, regressive, primitive "culture" isn't third world, it's fourth world. It's off in some sick zone by itself. However, I did make the comparison between this and the NYT "background check" on the Supreme Court nominee's kids. I figure maybe they think he's going to offer one up to the Judicial Comm. to get his nomination on to the floor. Or maybe offer one to the DNC.

9 Just a reminder, this girl is two years older than Aesyha was, when Mohammed the child molesting prophet consumated his marriage to her. Long live Lorena Bobbit!

10 Mrs. Murphy(Aretha Franklin):"Well, what'll you two have?" Elwood: "I'd like plain dry white toast, please, Ma'am." Aretha: MmHmm.(as only women can do it...) And you? Jake: I'd like one whole fried chicken. And a Coke. Aretha: MmHmm. Lord.... (Back in the kitchen "You ain't gonna beleive what these two white boys ordered. One ordered dry, white toast. Matt 'guitar' Murphy: "Elwood!!!!!!" Aretha: and the other one wants ONE, WHOLE, Fried Chicken.... Matt: "JAKE!!!" It's the Blues Brothers!!!!Damn!!!! Aretha: "where you goin'" That's such a great movie...

11 Mrs. Murphy(Aretha Franklin):"Well, what'll you two have?" Elwood: "I'd like plain dry white toast, please, Ma'am." Aretha: MmHmm.(as only women can do it...) And you? Jake: I'd like one whole fried chicken. And a Coke. Aretha: MmHmm. Lord.... (Back in the kitchen "You ain't gonna beleive what these two white boys ordered. One ordered dry, white toast. Matt 'guitar' Murphy: "Elwood!!!!!!" Aretha: and the other one wants ONE, WHOLE, Fried Chicken.... Matt: "JAKE!!!" It's the Blues Brothers!!!!Damn!!!! Aretha: "where you goin'?" That's such a great movie...

12 No YBP, she is more then tissue once she has been born. I have always said that once they are breathing, they have full rights as all of us. I also do believe in choice over blind obedience. The only time choice should not be involved is when it will harm another living entity, and you know of course my definition of living. But I would like to point out your hypocrisy. You are the one who goes on about "True Christians don't try to force their beliefs on to others", but not only are you trying to force you belief on to others, you want to make them law. But this just goes to show that you are a true conservative, trying to enslave the rest of the world with your views. As for the Blues Brother movie, that was great.

13 Butch, Butch, Butch: Why does the fact that someone has been born alter anything? Why aren't they fair game like unborn children? Why? What so sacred about "being born"? Isn't it Life that's sacred? "But I would like to point out your hypocrisy. You are the one who goes on about "True Christians don't try to force their beliefs on to others", but not only are you trying to force you belief on to others, you want to make them law. But this just goes to show that you are a true conservative, trying to enslave the rest of the world with your views." Forcing religious beliefs on someone would be like saying "You must attend THIS Church." Wanting to protect life is a little more basic than that. MANY religions condemn abortion, as did all civilized nations for thousands of years. Now, people have been duped by social engineers that abortion is a "right." We have laws to protect people who have been born. Is that a religious belief? Yes, but it's also common human decency. I want the same for the unborn. Married? Let's say that you and your wife really wanted to start a family. If your wife, pregnant for one week with your offspring, were killed by a drunken driver, would you only be thinking that one life has been snuffed out? What if she CHOSE to kill herself and the offspring because...just because. Would she have that right?

14 YBP, I do agree that life is sacred, and should be protected. The point of disagreement between us is when does life begin. That is why those who are born are no more fair game then you or me. So for you to say that I condone the killing or enslaving of children is purely 100% slander. I don't. As you can see from my posts, I have never denied how I feel about "tissue" prior to birth. So why are you lying about how I would feel about a child after it has been born? You are right that protecting human life is just plain common human decency. And every government should make that their number one goal. But once again, what is the definition of life. "The period between birth and death.", maybe? As for "Now, people have been duped by social engineers that abortion is a "right."", people been having one form of abortion or another for thousands of years. It is nothing new. And since people have been having abortions for eons, that stands to reason that those people thought it was right. It is much better to have an abortion than to leave a newborn out in the woods for the wolves. That has been done, and I heard is still sometime practice today. And making abortions illegal, is exactly forcing your believes on to us, pro choicers. Why? Because we don't believe what you. And yes, I am married. If you missed the post, I am married to a beautiful blonde bombshell from the Ukraine. And if she died while she was expecting, I would consider it to be a tragedy, but I would think of only one death. Even if she was 7 months pregnant, I would think to of it as 1 death. If it was you, would you buy 1 or two coffins, burial plots? What if your wife was pregnant, and she did something stupid, and had a miscarriage. Should she be charged with murder or manslaughter? Should all of these mothers be charged with injury to a child, if they are born with defects due to drugs or alcohol? On the lighter side, if life begins with conception, does that me I can retire in Feb of 2028 instead of Nov 2028 (age 65)? But I hope you see that, we have no disagreement on the sanctity of life after birth. We both agree that life from birth on is sacred. Now we differ when it comes to the nine months prior to that birth. And if you want to call me a "unborn mass murderer", that is fine and dandy. But when you say that I believe a child who has been born is nothing more then tissue, then you are committing a sin and breaking a commandment, of thou shall not lie.

15 I guess tissue is "fair game"

16 Butch: "YBP, I do agree that life is sacred, and should be protected. The point of disagreement between us is when does life begin." Butch, even pro-abortion doctors agree that fetuses are alive! "That is why those who are born are no more fair game then you or me." Ummmm??? "So for you to say that I condone the killing or enslaving of children is purely 100% slander. I don't. As you can see from my posts, I have never denied how I feel about "tissue" prior to birth. So why are you lying about how I would feel about a child after it has been born?" Butch, again, what virtue does beeing being born bring about that so magically protects someone? What is it? Because a baby can eat and breath on its own? Babies are still dependent and need to be fed, no? What about babies on respirators? "As for "Now, people have been duped by social engineers that abortion is a "right."", people been having one form of abortion or another for thousands of years. It is nothing new. And since people have been having abortions for eons, that stands to reason that those people thought it was right." The fact that evil has been done is not justification for its legalization. "It is much better to have an abortion than to leave a newborn out in the woods for the wolves. That has been done, and I heard is still sometime practice today." Bringing up another heinous practice #2 does not justify heinous practice #1. "And making abortions illegal, is exactly forcing your believes on to us, pro choicers. Why? Because we don't believe what you." But wouldn't any law that a person disagrees with be "forced" on him? Aren't some people who like to torture or kill animals "forced" to abandon such activities for the good of humanity? "And yes, I am married. If you missed the post, I am married to a beautiful blonde bombshell from the Ukraine. And if she died while she was expecting, I would consider it to be a tragedy, but I would think of only one death. Even if she was 7 months pregnant, I would think to of it as 1 death." So lets's say you you were both looking forward to the birth of your son or daughter intwo months, had picked out the furniture, etc., and some nut runs at you while you are both strolling along and drop kicks your blonde bomshell in her very-pregnant looking stomach. She miscarries. The mother has no harm done to her own body. Are you saying that you would be content that the individual's crime be simple assault? He would get, say, some months in jail, or community service, and may have to pay a fine for a new dress for wifey. And that would be justice? "If it was you, would you buy 1 or two coffins, burial plots?" Two plots, Butch, one for each body. "What if your wife was pregnant, and she did something stupid, and had a miscarriage. Should she be charged with murder or manslaughter?" It depends on what the "mistake" is. Is it intentional? Then yes. "Should all of these mothers be charged with injury to a child, if they are born with defects due to drugs or alcohol?" Yes! Aren't they already?! "On the lighter side, if life begins with conception, does that me I can retire in Feb of 2028 instead of Nov 2028 (age 65)?" You have my permission, Butch. At least, having not been aborted, you have the opportunity to retire at all. Brad: I just sneezed. Please pass a baby, er, a tissue.

17 Here ya go YBP, I have one left. It’s 7 months old, from the Ukraine and has blond hair, blue eye and a beating heart. No good for anything but blowing your nose. “It is much better to have an abortion than to leave a newborn out in the woods for the wolves” Butch 2005 Just goes to show that you can find comedy just about anywhere. Btw, I have some friends who have the last name of Wolf. If these people came over to my house, would you say “The Wolves are here, or The Wolf’s are here?”

18 YBP, the difference between being born and pre birth, is the same difference between an acorn and an oak tree. The acorn is not a tree. It is a potential tree. If you had a picture of an acorn, a car, a dog, a tree, and girl, and asked people on the street how many trees are in this pictures, guess what your answer will be? One. Have you ever heard of the "Miracle of Birth", well the miracle of birth is that a new human being is in this world. Once again, that is "YOUR" opinion that abortion is evil. But it is not the opinion of everyone. Besides evil can defined differently from religion to religion. That is why I say that it is up to the individual and God to decide what is evil. But is Society that must decide what is legal. But had I not experience the miracle of birth and had been aborted, I would not have to worry about retirement, because I would never, and I do mean never, not 1 month, 2 month what ever, existed. Then again, maybe my soul would just be waiting for the next available body to be "BORN". But since you and Brad do not have any honesty or integrity about my posts, and since this blog is getting farther and farther down the list, I will just leave off on this one, and let you two lie about me as you will.

19 Brad: FYI--Sale today at Costco in the paper on big 4-packs of babies, er tissue. The plural of the name "Wolf" is "Wolfs" without the apostrophe.

20 I think we have moved on. They are now acorns. Terrible story about those wolves, must be what makes Barbara Boxer so passionate about getting the little guys first.

21 Brad: "I think we have moved on. They are now acorns." Yes! And we musn't forget that "From little acorns grow mighty oaks." - Eugene O'Mahony "Terrible story about those wolves, must be what makes Barbara Boxer so passionate about getting the little guys first." That's it. Concern for the tissue getting all chewed up by the poor hungry wolves, and the resulting indigestion.

22 We always take a back seat to these amimal rights wackos!

23 Brad: Not to sound like a WOLF, but I have a brown bombshell from Minnesota. What color bombshell do you have?

24 I have an Irish bombshell born in LA to an Air Force Dentist, who moved to WA after getting out. Married 17 years last March. Our friends the….Wolfs, frequently come over unannounced as their daughter has soccer practice Tues/Thus from 6/8 at a field far to close to our home. When the mom comes over to use our bathroom and get a glass of wine during our dinner, I always announce “The Wolves are here”. It was funny the first time.

25 Brad: "When the mom comes over to use our bathroom and get a glass of wine during our dinner..." Someone needs to send her an Emily Post etiquette book. Hey, congrats on your long marriage. We Catholics have the right idea, eh? Give my regards to your Irish bombshell.

26 Thanks, IÂ’ll give her your best. Ya, when divorce is not an option, ya just stay married. Re the Wolf, I think the Emily Post book would bounce off her head. Have a good weekend.

27 Don't you just love it when the only defense of a position is to use the words: enslave, slave, nazi, kkk. Sounds like Mike Tyson after getting knocked on his ass the 20th time. The slave master did it. If he didn't it must have be Bush.

28 Young Bourbon Professional trying to ENSLAVE the world. Ha. Ha. That's rich. And then he says "stop lying about me". Ha, Ha.

29 Greyrooster: Alas, yes, I have been outed by Butch. I will henceforth be known as "The Enslaver"--a terrible tyrant who has the audacity to want it illegal for babies to have their brains sucked out by abortionists.

30 It was FOUR (4) fried chickens and a coke!