May 10, 2005

Who was worse, Stalin or Hitler? Six of One, Half Dozen of Another

The difference between Stalin and Hitler? Hitler lost. WaTimes:

Amid all the chitchat, commentary and controversy over this week's celebrations marking the end of World War II, there is a question that has never been far from the surface, though it has rarely broken through: Which was really worse -- communism or Nazism?

One answer, a sensible one at that, is that both systems were so degraded, disgusting and unpalatable that it is impossible to establish a hierarchy of value in which one could possibly stand higher, or lower, than the other. When you've reached the deepest pit in Hell there's nowhere lower to go.

Unfortunately, though, that conclusion is often lost in a quagmire of ignorance and historical distortion. Not because anyone this side of decency really doubts the horrors of Nazism. But, sadly, because there are still large numbers of people (and judge for yourself which side of decency they stand) who still refuse to face up to the horrors of communism.

Take veteran Guardian columnist Jonathan Steele, writing in that paper just last week. In an irony that would certainly escape him, he makes it clear that one purpose of his polemic is to combat the "denial" in the West about the role of the Soviet Union in defeating Hitler. In attempting to foreclose on the argument that "Nazism and communism were somehow two sides of the same evil coin" he reaches a crescendo with the following, extraordinary statement: "Mass terror and purges," he says, "were not intrinsic to Soviet rule, as was clear after Stalin's death."

True, but if you are to use this comparison then one would need to call 'Nazism' a particular manifestation of fascism. Hitler is to fascism what Stalin is to communism.

Yet, no one says, "Hey, those fascists weren't really all that bad. It was Hitler that perverted fascism." See how this works? As if any paper would stand up and call Mussolini a reformer, Franco an anti-Hitlerite, or Juan Peron an idealist.

Soviet mass terror, by contrast, was a feature of the regime right from the beginning. Lenin's core principle of Red Terror was applied in the slaughter of up to half a million class enemies in the very first years of Soviet rule. And that is before we add in the millions of victims of a civil war which was the direct result of communist despotism.

In Lenin's own words, the new Soviet system was "a special system of organized violence against a certain class." The use of terror against class and ideological enemies was thus a central, defining part of the communist system.

Lenin's Commissar for Justice Issac Steinberg well remembers in his memoirs a telling conversation with Lenin in which he (bravely) expressed reservations about the scale of that terror. "Then why do we bother with a commissariat of Justice?" he asked Lenin. "Let's call it frankly the commissariat for Social Extermination and be done with it!" Lenin jumped at the idea. "Well put," he said. "That's exactly what it should be...but we can't say that."

The full death toll, most of it accumulated in peace time, at the hands of Lenin and his political and ideological successor, Stalin, is estimated by the best authorities at somewhere between 25 million and 30 million people. Not bad in a system for which mass terror and purges were not "intrinsic" parts. In what passes for Steele's argument, he suggests the scaling down of the terror after Stalin's death is evidence the system was not inherently terroristic. Does it not occur to him that there was no one left to kill?

And why do people still engage in this debate?
But by far the most significant category is made up by people who have a deep ideological need to save the reputation of the one by showing up its "better" qualities in comparison with the other. Neo-Nazis have thus long sought to stress the crimes of Stalin while diminishing or denying entirely the crimes of Hitler. It serves their perverted aims to do so. The old, Western Left has participated in exactly the same kind of enterprise in reverse. The difference is, of course, that they continue to get away with it, avoiding the contempt that both groups, not just one, so richly deserve.
Parenthetically I was at a May Day rally in Moscow once. The crowd was maybe 100,000 strong. There were pictures of Stalin everywhere.

One of the main speakers was an American from the CPUSA. Had he been 5 feet closer I would have punched that SOB right in the mouth. The utter drivel coming out of his mouth about how Russians were so much better off under the Soviet Union and how they enjoyed such a higher standard of living than Americans.

Being a Leftist is a lot like being a member of a cult. But at least in a cult they need to make you eat low-protein gruel to lower your resistance to suggestion. Leftist seem willing and able to buy into the ideological nonsense of their own free will.

Hmmm, I take that back. Maybe kashi (mush) and shi (cabbage soup) were Communist inventions to get the masses on board with the Fearless Leader's glorious seven year plan?

Hat tip: Kevin Aylward

Posted by: Rusty at 09:06 AM | Comments (21) | Add Comment
Post contains 900 words, total size 5 kb.

1 My brother, your classic old school Liberal, said he would have preferred live under the bolsheviks than the czars. I told him the czars didn't have gulags and kill tens of millions. He said, "really? hmmm."

Posted by: Carlos at May 10, 2005 10:21 AM (8e/V4)

2 Remmeber, if you kill 100 million with "humane intentions" you are "better" or "equal" to someone who kills 21 million with racist intentions. A serial muderer with good vibrations is better than a racist who kills just one person. Leftists say 1+1=3. Bow down to it.

Posted by: Leftism is slave morality at May 10, 2005 10:37 AM (Gi7oA)

3 Carlos, your classic, old-school, Liberal brother is guilty of exactly what Robin Shepherd, the author of the piece Rusty quotes, speaks of; by showing up the "better" qualities of one in comparison with the other. Even though he has no idea what those "qualities" are. Life under the Czars was pretty bad. Forced labor camps, debtor's prisons, high unregulated taxation, etc.

Posted by: Oyster at May 10, 2005 10:48 AM (fl6E1)

4 Life under the Czars was pretty bad. Forced labor camps, debtor's prisons, high unregulated taxation, etc. Oyster, I know it was, and I'm not apologizing for the czars. But under the commies it went from bad to worse. I've already mentioned gulags and political repression, but I forgot to mention the millions of peasants that starved to death when Stalin collectivized their farms and robbed their food.

Posted by: Carlos at May 10, 2005 11:01 AM (8e/V4)

5 Which is better Communism or Fascism? That should be an easy choice for you Zionazis. Clearly you prefer fascism.

Posted by: greg at May 10, 2005 11:59 AM (/+dAV)

6 Why is it whenever this subject comes up, the options quickly become limited to deciding and choosing the lesser of two evils? Sure, life under the Tsars sucked, but so did life under Communism. How come nobody ever brings up the prospect of true freedom? It seems to me those on the left, call them soc***ist, progressive, fascist, communist, whatever are best defined by their pessimism and idealism, both of which are unrealistic and lead to cognitive dissonance. They can't deal with reality, so they turn petty and violent, or are at least willing to overlook violence and repression, because in their diseased minds, it's the only thing that can work. Freedom is good for everyone, though not everyone is ready for it. Patience is the key.

Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at May 10, 2005 12:18 PM (0yYS2)

7 "That should be an easy choice for you Zionazis. Clearly you prefer fascism." hahaha! made me laugh.

Posted by: Carlos at May 10, 2005 12:35 PM (8e/V4)

8 Rusty, you are absolutely right about there being no meaningful difference. And it's just as true of the intent as well as the process. There's another reason this argument is moot. It ignores the PRC. No, we don't have the wealth of records and testimony available from the Soviet and Nazi regimes (It's almost laughable to remember what meticulous records were left by the Nazis) and no Chinese Solzhenitsyn has, or seems likely, to surface. The picture given by Paul Johnson in Modern Times seems to give the impression that while Stalin and Hitler went about their business grimly and methodically, Mousie Dung laughed all the way, as if one billion people were his private toys. Fifty-six years down the road his heirs are playing brinkmanship with Taiwan (Thanks, Dick) and perhaps letting North Korea act as the muleta. Anyone for Ping-Pong?

Posted by: Mr. Kurtz at May 10, 2005 12:37 PM (Gl8kN)

9 Carlos, I thought that comment would smoke you out. Your attention is needed at http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/080358.php

Posted by: greg at May 10, 2005 01:11 PM (/+dAV)

10 Q to Mr President: Who was worse, Stalin or hitler? Bush reply: easy, it's a trick question; Saddam was worst

Posted by: IM at May 10, 2005 01:19 PM (a9tRx)

11 Your attention is needed at http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/080358.php ;-) Dude, that thread is all tapped out.

Posted by: Carlos at May 10, 2005 02:37 PM (8e/V4)

12 Carlos, I accept your unconditional surrender. The single spoil of war that I shall take as my trophy is the knowledge that I'm right and you're wrong. He ain't the #3 man.

Posted by: greg at May 10, 2005 02:50 PM (/+dAV)

13 greg, I surrender to your superior dogged stubborness, not your logic nor your conclusions. :-)

Posted by: Carlos at May 10, 2005 03:07 PM (8e/V4)

14 Greg, its long past time to grow up. Move out of the parents' house and quit masturbating to Lyndon LaRouche screeds. The anti-semitic stuff doesn't get you dates outside of KKK rallies.

Posted by: Robin Roberts at May 10, 2005 07:06 PM (xauGB)

15 Being anti-Russian due to the long history of war against them, I must say Stalin was worse. Even if he didn't cause WW2 that cost somewhat 40 million human lives and huge environmental damage, he did terrorize and ruin an area three or four times the size of US for many many years longer than Hitler waged war on world. He had ethnic cleansings that make Milosevic look like a saint. He actually had entire nations "cleansed" of the original inhabitants and reinhabited by poor Russians. Plus he tried to take over Finland twice costing him only 3-4 million dead Russians and gigantic amounts of captured/destroyed military hardware, but for us huge material damage, loss of land, about 40'000 dead and several hundreds of thousands injured. So he messed up Russia and had even bigger amounts of innocent people systematically killed than Hitler. Hitlers wars cost more people, yes, but only the concentration camps and soldiers count as Hitlers fault, the rest are from the maniacal revenge bombings that leveled entire cities, and the A-bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki done by the Allied after 3te Reich started losing. If you don't count those and the people Japans sunrise cost in Hitlers killing, Stalins terror cost ~2,8 million people more than Hitlers.

Posted by: A Finn at May 11, 2005 02:53 AM (cWMi4)

16 Hmm... perhaps this should lead to Bush=right-wing-Stalin. Oh yeah, 16-year-old Swede broke into NASAs computers, naananaananaaanaaa.

Posted by: A Finn at May 11, 2005 02:56 AM (cWMi4)

17 "...16-year-old Swede broke into NASAs computers, naananaananaaanaaa." A Finn, and that's cool?

Posted by: Oyster at May 11, 2005 05:56 AM (YudAC)

18 Robin Roberts caused the electric grid blackout last year with an over use of her electric vibrator. She has since converted to a turbo deisel vibrator. PLAUP PLAUP PLAUP PLAUP!

Posted by: greg at May 11, 2005 10:09 AM (/+dAV)

19 Might've been NSAs computers, but yeah, it's nice to know anyone can go see what they're doing.

Posted by: A Finn at May 12, 2005 12:56 AM (cWMi4)

20 On a pure statistical standpoint, one may point out the percentages regarding the total loss of lives compared to the population. In relation to their populations before the war started, the losses were almost the same. The USSR lost about 10.4% of their people while Germany lost 9.5%. And on that note, Poland, which we all should know was a main focal point in the holocaust lost 17.2%, 6 million civilians, 123 thousand military personel. The commonly accepted count for the holocaust death toll is 6 million Jews and 5 million other minorities (gypsies, blacks, mentally ill). That's eleven million innocent civilians that had no plans in taking over any governments. Russia's civilian death count is 7 million. Most Russians were killed in battle, not in a camp made for the sole purpose of purging a race. By all means, Stalin was a schizophrenic mass political murderer as much as Hitler was psychopathic racist Parkinson's patient. And I'm not ashamed to say that at times I almost wish that Germany would have reached Moscow before we got there, but in the end, Hitler killed more unmorally throughout the war than Stalin did. They both had great strengths that got them as far as they did. Hitler was a great speaker and motivator. Stalin was actually a very skilled military leader (granted anybody could win with the Red Army). All in all, I forgot my point. I still say Churchill saved the world.

Posted by: A Scot at May 25, 2005 01:43 AM (gCx4y)

21 Right okay, I dont know where this fits in with all of your beliefs and i dont care too much, but evil is evil, how can there be a lesser of the two? I understand that there is but surely just because one is worse it doesnt make the other any better. Stalin killed a hell of a lot more people than hitler did, as ludicris as it seems, nazism had some sort of logic, stalinism was completely illogical. By no means does this make Hitler or nazism any less terrible, it does shed some light on stalin though. He killed millions of his own people, no reason, lies made up by his followers, Hitler when he killed germans made sure that there was some reasoning behind it, whether they had jewish blood within them or were somehow linked however small to treason. Both men(not that they deserve such a title) were tyrants. However while it is not even considered for someone to even joke about Hitler, it seems that stalinsim is somewhat celebrated, there are cigerettes that celebrate a concentration camp that killed 100,000 russians, songs that can be found still such as 'stalin, freund, genosse' you would have to look a damn sight harder to find a nazi song, there are also stamps with the heads of significant figures from stalins era who killed thousands. Why is it that stalin is considered somewhat of a hero? Its a twisted society that portrays this man as anything other than a crazy man who had the power to ammuse himself and rid himself of his insecurities and paranoia.

Posted by: Danni at August 23, 2005 04:20 PM (wc357)

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