The final report on the shooting of Giuliana Sgrena's car and the killing of Nicola Calipari has cleared U.S. soldiers of wrongdoing. There is little new here, as
. But liar and propagandist Giuliana Sgrena is not a happyy camper. But because Italians have bought her version of the story hook, line, and sinker, it looks like she may get her wish after all: the total withdrawal of U.S. troops. And the Italian Left is up in arms, with the Communists (Sgrena's party) actually using the Italian Senate floor to call Calipari's death a deliberate murder.
Check out Sgrena's reaction. And yes, she should be charged with purgery.
Meanwhile the Italian political left is using the report to their advantage. Of course the report is unacceptable to them. Nothing short of Bush=Hitler would satisfy the left-wing nutjobs of Europe.
1
Unprofessional work on the part of the Americans.
As the hostage party passed checkpoints the Americans should have radioed ahead to let them know that the party was on it's way to the airport.
Or better yet, the Americans should have provided an escort to the airport.
Is that too much to ask for another member of the coalition?
Posted by: greg at April 26, 2005 08:59 AM (/+dAV)
2
Truly unprofessional, they should have killed them all.
I would assume that if the Italians hadn't been doing something fishy, they would have told the US Military in advance where, when and what. The fact they didn't and ended up in a pickle, says it all.
As with all criminal enterprises, the outcome is not prdictable.
Sad that people died, but the Italians should have known better.
Posted by: ds at April 26, 2005 09:28 AM (7evkT)
3
ds,
You're confused.
First you say,"Truly unprofessional, they should have killed them all."
Then you say,"Sad that people died, but the Italians should have known better."
Which is it?
Posted by: greg at April 26, 2005 09:41 AM (/+dAV)
4
"Obviously, our two testimonies given to the American commission were useless. Or will I be charged with perjury?" questioned the journalist.
I appreciate that Sgrena said "useless" rather than "ignored." She was never interested in giving testimony; she wanted to engineer an outcome. I speculated that she would get her way in large part because of the old,
bad blood Italians feel for US military justice that Sophie Arie illuminated in her CSM article. The 1998 incident, in which a jet on maneuvers cut a tram cable that sent twenty people to their deaths, was in fact a denial of justice and a poor expression of culpability, and the Italians have formed their view of the US accordingly. They want payback, and they want control over US foreign action. But they shouldn't have justice by proxy, and not at all in a case where culpability and punishment would be falsely rendered.
Too bad the elephant in the room of the 1998 incident will continue to be ignored, though the communists wouldn't have it any other way. It's the cudgel they're effectively using for power. Perhaps the question we should be asking isn't how Italy will deal with this, and whether they'll remove their troops from Iraq. We should be asking what a communist Italy, hostile to the US, will bode for geopolitics and the GWOT.
Posted by: tee bee at April 26, 2005 10:01 AM (q1JHF)
5
I was personally insulted that while they took the time to charge Negroponte with a mafia-style order for a hit (funny, a mafia hit on an Italian... amazing!), they failed to blame the International Jewish Banking Conspiracy. It must have been an off day for the communists. Hopefully, they will update the blame once Sgrena changes her story again to fit her point of view.
Posted by: Wine-aholic at April 26, 2005 10:13 AM (Wsn+K)
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Obviously an accident, the result of the kind of incompetence we've come to expect from the Italians.
I only regret the wrong person was killed.
Posted by: Carlos at April 26, 2005 10:25 AM (8e/V4)
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"Margherita party". That explains it. They've been drinking too much.
Greg and DS:
That's the point of contention. Did Calipari, or any other Italian official, communicate with the US forces exactly who was coming through, or when and where they were coming through? We don't even know that Calipari told any other check point who he was or who Sgrena was. All they needed to necessarily do is show that they were legal and had the proper papers to get through any checkpoint.
I have suspicions that Calipari didn't tell anyone. Simply because he quietly rented a non-descript car for the retrieval when he would have readily been issued a vehicle by the military that would have been recognizable by those at the checkpoint and probably safer. I'm led to believe he simply made a poor decision to try and be just another non-descript traveler in the hopes that no attention would be drawn to them.
Sgrena talks about her testimony and "another Italian agent". What about the driver? I'd like to hear what he has to say. It's my understanding there were 5 people in that car. Where are the other two? What do they say? It doesn't add up.
First she said there were no lights, then there WAS a light. She said a tank fired on them. Bull. A tank would have destroyed a Toyota. Sgrena is a liar. She is now telling that they were on a completely different road and were
shot at from behind. I'd like to know how bullets entered the windsheild from "behind".
Posted by: Oyster at April 26, 2005 10:30 AM (fl6E1)
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"I only regret the wrong person was killed."-Carlos
An example of American Blood Lust.
Posted by: greg at April 26, 2005 10:33 AM (/+dAV)
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>>>"An example of American Blood Lust."
greg,
I accept your characterization.
I regret the italian agent died, instead of the commie filth Sgrena...as opposed to Arab/muslim bloodlust of setting off bombs in mosques and sawing off heads of captives, and shooting wounded civilians after helping them to their feet.
Posted by: Carlos at April 26, 2005 10:49 AM (8e/V4)
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"As the hostage party passed checkpoints the Americans should have radioed ahead to let them know that the party was on it's way to the airport."
Another example of assuming things without knowing all the facts.
Posted by: Oyster at April 26, 2005 10:52 AM (fl6E1)
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Good for you.
Acceptance is the first step to recovery.
Posted by: greg at April 26, 2005 10:55 AM (/+dAV)
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"Another example of assuming things without knowing all the facts."-Oyster
What exactly is your point?
Posted by: greg at April 26, 2005 10:57 AM (/+dAV)
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greg,
recovery from what? I don't see your example of American bloodlust as anything needing recovery from.
It's you who should recover from apologizing for Arab/muslim bloodlust of sawing off the heads of captives and blowing up mosques-- your freedom fighters.
Posted by: Carlos at April 26, 2005 11:07 AM (8e/V4)
14
"It's you who should recover from apologizing for Arab/muslim bloodlust of sawing off the heads of captives and blowing up mosques-- your freedom fighters."-Carlos
Now you're just making things up.
Posted by: greg at April 26, 2005 11:09 AM (/+dAV)
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I'll spell it out for you, Greg.
"Unprofessional work on the part of the Americans."
You're assuming they did something wrong without all the facts.
"As the hostage party passed checkpoints the Americans should have radioed ahead to let them know that the party was on it's way to the airport."
You're assuming they identified themselves as to who they were and what they were doing at other checkpoints without knowing that.
"Or better yet, the Americans should have provided an escort to the airport. Is that too much to ask for another member of the coalition?"
You're assuming they asked for an escort without knowing whether they did. Do you really think that it would have been denied? Do you know they didn't offer one?
These are questions we all have and DO NOT have the answers. You're assuming things we don't know the answers to and convicting them on what you're assumptions are.
On the other hand, we do know Sgrena has changed her story repeatedly so she can't be trusted to tell the truth.
Posted by: Oyster at April 26, 2005 11:24 AM (fl6E1)
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Oyster,
I'm assuming Americans aren't total idiots.
Posted by: greg at April 26, 2005 11:34 AM (/+dAV)
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Greg must not have a job. Never seen so many posts. No wonder he is a liberal.
Posted by: Filthy Allah at April 26, 2005 12:20 PM (yBHNA)
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greg
Im sure i read somewhere that the italians DIDNT inform the US or anyone else of Sgrena's release.
If i can remember where i read it i will post the information later.
Posted by: sparky at April 26, 2005 12:33 PM (F1nba)
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I'm assuming Americans aren't total idiots.
Unlike you.
But again, you have failed to address Oyster's point, which is that any unprofessionalism on the part of the Americans at the first checkpoint is necessarily predicated upon those Americans having been provided specific information by Calipari or Sgrena, and then failing to act upon that information. Since we don't know what information the Italians in the car provided to the soldiers at the checkpoint, the characterization of their actions as unprofessional is without merit.
Posted by: Brian B at April 26, 2005 12:37 PM (CouWh)
Posted by: greg at April 26, 2005 01:12 PM (/+dAV)
Posted by: Oyster at April 26, 2005 02:11 PM (fl6E1)
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It's like...Oh, Oh, Hot Dog!
Posted by: greg at April 26, 2005 02:33 PM (/+dAV)
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Amidst all this controversy over who is lying, and who is truthful, one single item could probably clear the Americans much better than the stories that hit the various papers, namely: the car. To those who continue to question the veracity of Italians account, don't you find it odd that the car was never released? And don't you find it odd that the caliber of ammo that hit Sgrena was not from any personal weaponry, but rather that used in armored vehicles. Oh yeah, one more, and all of the shots came from behind? And you really think that car will ever be released? It is long gone, my simpleton, happy believers. Because it would scream guilty from all the damage done to it. And why would ms. Sgrena end up first in a military hospital once back in Italy, she's not military! That's because Mr. Berlusconi had to get the story straight. Without those pesky reporters out there, many of them likely communists, or other lefties. Ouch...can't have that, freedom of the press is suppressed there as well as it is in the US...
Posted by: Leendert Noordzij at April 26, 2005 03:02 PM (f3G80)
24
Leendert,
I understand that the Italian government has purchased the vehicle from the rental agency. If they still aren't allowed access to the car after going to this trouble it will be fishy indeed.
Posted by: greg at April 26, 2005 03:10 PM (/+dAV)
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Leendert, I find it very suspicious that all the things you claim are suspicious are not inconsistent with the US forces version of events.
But then, logic is obviously not your strong suit.
Posted by: Robin Roberts at April 26, 2005 07:00 PM (xauGB)
26
Poster's forget that the Italians failed to coordinate the movement of their newly released hostage with anyone on the US side. Had they done so the outcome might have been completely different. What is clear is that only the burned bodies of the checkpoint's troops, hanging from a bridge somewhere in Iraq will satisfy those Italians who hate America so much. No facts will change their emotion driven hate.
Posted by: NOTR at April 27, 2005 01:17 AM (Djm/j)
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No facts will change your emotion driven hate towards muslims either, naanaanaanaa, I'll get back to sunbathing
Posted by: Mr. Finn at April 27, 2005 06:09 AM (cWMi4)
28
Greg,
Regardless, the stories conflict. Even if the US military was told they would be coming through they would not expect a car, any car, to attempt to run a checkpoint. They would be expected to stop no matter who they were. Even if the military was told they were coming through do we know they were given enough information? Calipari "rented" a car. Did anyone at the time know what kind or color car he rented? Did Calipari assume, wrongly maybe, that he didn't "have" to stop since they were near the airport? Again, there is not enough information given to us to make a determination and you are hell bent to do just that by accepting what you read as gospel and assuming the rest. Ask questions. You're not doing that.
I hope to God you're not a lawyer. I would insist you refund any fees you have ever charged anyone.
Leendert:
Strange. The story seems to have changed again. First Sgrena was hit with shrapnel. Now it's a high caliber bullet? Please direct me with a link to your source of information. You're also not asking the question of how bullets "enter" a windsheild from behind a car. Sgrena's wound was from the front. I can't remember where I saw the picture of her bandage in front. If they were fired at from behind, what was she doing? Sitting backward in her seat?
That "facts" don't match up. Somebody is lying and peons like us do not know who it is. Admit it.
She was taken to a "US military" hospital at first and by all accounts I can find she was taken to an "Italian hospital" (no mention of military) afterwards.
Also: the car IS being shipped to Italy. However, your argument as well as Greg's, I would expect, will be to claim that the evidence has been altered to clear the military.
This will never be clear in my mind whether anyone one did anything deliberate or if coordination between the two governments was simply badly carried out. Believe what you will.
I find it awfully convenient that the Italians have effectively directed attention away from questions regarding ransom. No one seems to be asking about it anymore.
Posted by: Oyster at April 27, 2005 07:17 AM (YudAC)
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"I hope to God you're not a lawyer."-Oyster
Hell no, I'm a molecular biologist.
Somebody is lying and peons like us do not know who it is.-Oyster
On this we can agree. In fact both sides may be lying.
Posted by: greg at April 27, 2005 08:16 AM (/+dAV)
30
And usually you are lying as well, greg.
Posted by: Robin Roberts at April 27, 2005 10:08 AM (xauGB)
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Robin,
You're a liar because you promised to show us your tits and you never did.
Posted by: greg at April 27, 2005 10:14 AM (/+dAV)
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>>>"Okay, so who's lying?"
That's easy. If you're a traitor, then America is lying.
Posted by: Carlos at April 27, 2005 10:31 AM (8e/V4)
33
" If you're a traitor, then America is lying."-Carlos
Carlos,
You throw the T-word around gratuitously.
I'd been working on a short speech for when they come hang me, but I have decided that I'm going to do some stand up comedy instead.
Posted by: greg at April 27, 2005 11:15 AM (/+dAV)
34
Tu se bravissima Anna.
Posted by: greg at April 27, 2005 03:27 PM (/+dAV)
35
>>>"You throw the T-word around gratuitously."
greg,
but am I wrong?
Posted by: Carlos at April 27, 2005 03:28 PM (8e/V4)
36
Carlos,
Yes, you're wrong. I'm no traitor. Nor is Collin.
Posted by: greg at April 27, 2005 03:41 PM (/+dAV)
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Silly greg. I never called you a traitor, nor Collin.
I merely said traitors always choose to believe America is lying.
Posted by: Carlos at April 27, 2005 03:53 PM (8e/V4)
38
That's a relief. But I do believe our government is lying about many things.
Did you happen to read Anna's post? We haven't heard the last of this incident yet.
Posted by: greg at April 27, 2005 04:02 PM (/+dAV)
39
Italy Opens Its Own Probe of Agent's Slaying in Iraq
ROME, April 27 -- "Dissatisfied with the results of a joint investigation with the United States, Italy on Wednesday began its own probe into the March 4 killing of one of its intelligence agents by U.S. troops in Baghdad."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/27/AR2005042701980.html
Posted by: greg at April 28, 2005 09:28 AM (/+dAV)
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April, 29, 2005. The truth finally has come out today,
all contrary to that lying Sgrena journalist who said that
they were doing 40 kph, instead now either real satellite
photos or facsimile reproduced computer analysis, the
outcome results that the car was doing 96 kph, and that
at 137 yards, the car was warned to stop, but no shooting
took place until it was about 40 yards away, by then it
took just 3 seconds between those two times. Now that
makes more sense, since when did you ever hear of an
Italian driving at only 40kph especially on a wide open
road with no traffic. Wonder now what she will say to
the widow of Mr. Calipari and his children. Wonder now
if the Italian government has the guts to put this lier
conniving communists on trail for all the problems she
caused, also, almost for sure, a ransom of several
million dollars was given for her release. This is the
same woman who was so grateful to American GI's who
literally protected her while she lived in the hotel
in Baghdad, yet she would still wander around taking
pictures of so called atrocities that she accused
American of doing.
Posted by: Meric at April 29, 2005 11:35 AM (AVAfo)
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Meric
Where did you get this info please?
Posted by: sparky at April 29, 2005 01:03 PM (F1nba)
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sparky, CBS has been reporting this.
Posted by: Robin Roberts at April 30, 2005 03:21 PM (xauGB)
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Robin
Im from bonnie scotland all quiet over here nothing on media
thanks now i can check it out
Posted by: sparky at May 01, 2005 08:55 AM (F1nba)
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well new information came out today, accidentally declassified, and it looks like the lefties were right after all.
the deaths were clearly the result of negligence on the part of our military. that doesn't mean we don't support our troops. it just means they made a mistake.
now i would expect us to make an apology and own up to our mistakes like grown ups.
Posted by: gorilla at May 02, 2005 06:54 PM (m0/tp)
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