Interesting. I'm not very familiar with the training of the Contras in Nicaragua, though I do have a very basic understanding of the training and the goals of the operation. In essense, this trained squad would be made up entirely of Iraqis and their main goal would be to find, capture or kill those directing the insurgency and/or terrorist attacks. Sounds like a good plan to me.
One of the things that has frustrated me, and I'm sure many more, about Iraq is that we are playing defense instead of actively searching out terrorist strongholds. It may not be this way entirely, but that is the way it seems. Some of this can be attributed to diverse objectives in Iraq. Our primary goal is to bring Democracy to the region, but in order to do this many things must fall in line including helping to rebuild/build infrastructure. There are different groups inside the U.S. military assigned to building for instance, however from an outsider's perspective it appears that we are on the sidelines more than on the front lines aggressively seeking out those that harm and kill U.S. soldiers and Iraqis.
Thankfully this isn't always the case as we saw raids into Fallujah, raids accross the entire Sunni Triangle and raids following the Mosul Mess Hall bombing, however I often question how often the U.S. military is out looking for terrorists rather than responding to calls or terrorist attacks.
In theory alone, the 'Death Squads' would be charged with finding those who operate the attacks and I do hope the area of operations includes those outside of Iraq itself. This could be a drastic improvement in tactics and should allow for increased intelligence because the 'Death Squads' would be Iraqis, therefore have a better layout of the land and better connect with the people who have information to share.
The article makes a brief mention of anti-American hostility the death squads in Nicaragua caused that I am unaware of. Perhaps a reader can share some inside knowledge on this?
From what I was told, the Death Squad consisted of only Nicaraguans to carry out the missions but were trained by the CIA and U.S. Special Forces. Members of this group were not necessarily Contras, and they lived primarily inside of Nicaragua carrying out their regular day jobs but participated in searching out and capturing or killing leaders of the opposing forces at night.
When I asked why this option was a good option in Nicaragua and why it would be a good one in Iraq, the former agent told me the following (punctuation and spelling corrected):
Fair enough. The former CIA agent was not able to tell me any type of anti-Americanism this type of team fueled as the article indicated, however in Iraq it would be hard to add more fuel to the overwhelming fire.
1
This is a sign of desperation more than anything else, isn't it?
It could have positive effects... but it seems far more likely that the presence of US-sanctioned vigilantees would only heighten animosity felt towards the occupying troops.
The "El Salvador" option wasn't exactly America's finest hour vis a vis its image abroad - Negroponte turned a blind eye then, I hope he's not being told to do the same in Iraq now.
Posted by: Martin at January 10, 2005 03:27 AM (ll2pj)
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It's always wise to be somewhat skeptical of press reporting that immediately seeks to label a current initiative as a reincarnation of a poorly-understood policy from 20 years before, conducted in a different place, against a different enemy, with a different relationship between the various parties to the conflict. A less conspiratorial take on this would be the US providing training to counterterrorism forces sponsored by and under the control of the Iraqi government.
I'd note that all the key aspects of such a plan (e.g., rules of engagement, command and control) are "reported" strictly as speculation--naturally from a perspective that reflects poorly upon the enterprise--without any solid information that could be checked for validity. So, while the author could probably never be proven to have "lied", he/she/it does get to set the agenda, despite having virtually no idea of what is planned, and thus no information on which to form an informed opinion of its effects on the situation in Iraq or the region at large.
Posted by: Jem at January 10, 2005 07:20 AM (vT9Oz)
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Only if Jefferson and Franklin were a death squad could the Contras be equated to such. Again the America haters in the MSM ar puting propaganda out as news.
Rod Stanton
Cerritos
Posted by: Rod Stanton at January 10, 2005 07:51 AM (tHUgl)
4
Well, how much more is the animosity going to be "heightened"? After a certain point, things reach a max. If we were to believe all the reports from the MSM about how much the rest of the world hates America, we should figure that we're about at the peak. And in reality, what concrete effect did "increased Anti-American sentiment" have in Nicaragua? People just continue to complain about the US and maybe the complaints get a little louder for awhile. Boo-hoo.
I for one, think targeted assassinations are the way to go in these kinds of circumstances. Minimize civilian casualties and take out the leaders at the same time.
Posted by: Nicole at January 10, 2005 09:08 AM (uTf7C)
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What is being overlooked is the same point that ALWAYS happens in these contra-group programs: not the oversight or the implementation of such a tool, but the fact that there will be indescriminate and extrajudicial killings. These killings will not happen on the order or even the permission of US handlers, but because we will have trained another perfect killing machine which will not be rivaled, and ergo this group will use its tools on those who they think needs to be punished, that is outside of those the US wants neutralized. Since we are so good at oversight on these groups and training them to never do anything outside of their handlers, we should never worry about seeing examples of the past recurring:
1. Partisans trained in South and Central America (Crica 1800's).
2. Partisans trained in Europe during WWII.
3. Partisans trained in South, South-East, and rest of Asia.
4. Partisans trained in Africa (Post WWII).
5. Partisans trained in South and Central America (Post WWII).
To add a note, those who blame the media of all those ills they report ... well it would be fair to blame the media for the Iran-Contra Scandal because it was them who reported it. The reason the media reports is simple: because its happening in an environment open to the world.
Posted by: Salamander at January 10, 2005 09:27 AM (W2YA6)
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Martin is absolutely correct. Resorting to the need for "death squads" is an indication that the military believes that they're not winning this war.
"In theory alone, the 'Death Squads' would be charged with finding those who operate the attacks and I do hope the area of operations includes those outside of Iraq itself. This could be a drastic improvement in tactics and should allow for increased intelligence because the 'Death Squads' would be Iraqis, therefore have a better layout of the land and better connect with the people who have information to share."
In theory that might be correct, but we're not all idiots and we know how death squads actually do operate based on, as the article mentions, El Salvador and other Latin American countries.
In addition to locating and neutralizing enemy commanders et. al, death squads in those countries also kidnapped and murdered people who simply didn't agree with the ruling regime. Doesn't sound very democratic does it? These kinds of tactics were done by the former Hussein regime, not to mention the terrorists currently in Iraq.
Seriously, this is a bad idea. Not only will the US find itself even more alienated if it tries to do this, it runs counter to American values. I'm really surprised that, given all the lessons learned in Latin America in the 80s that this is even being considered. Death squads were not the elite commando units you're assuming they are (when you say that they "know the land" and can "connect with the people"). They were murderers who killed many, regardless if they were innocent or terrorists.
Again, a bad idea.
Posted by: Venom at January 10, 2005 09:31 AM (dbxVM)
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A double edged sword here . . "Death Squads" made up of Kurds or Shia's working outside Iraq would probably bring a screeching halt to the more "Prominent" Terrorist's Assistance in Syria, Saudi Arabia and Iran. However, one would want to be very careful about the use of anything like this within the country of Iraq, as it would undermine the "Law and Order" we have advocated that comes with "Democracy".
And of course, what would prevent a "Duly Elected Despot" to use these same highly trained groups within Iraq to constitute the same type of government we just toppled? Same kind of People, just different names . . There's already a great danger of this, but with highly trained "New Republican Guards" . . I think we'd have a worse situation than before.
We'd probably be better off using good intelligence, and our own military resources, doing what we did in Falluja, drop a 500 pounder on anything that looks suspicious, and kill anything that runs out of the rubble. Just don't let the press get too close! After a while all the "Innocents" would decide to "Rat Off" anybody building bombs and the like. After all, nobody wants their neighborhood blown up because of a neighbor's zoning violation. So to speak . . Heh, heh . .
Posted by: large at January 10, 2005 11:21 AM (VRK2g)
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Great idea ..WOW!!!...
so pathetic.
The biggest problem is that the US in Iraq is working with the same people who provide the insurgents with details of their plans.
It's gettings quite marshy and murky.
Posted by: Roopesh at January 10, 2005 12:44 PM (8BQfR)
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oh no, Venom is back!!!!
I don't know about Nicaragua, Chad, but I do know we had death squads in Vietnam. President Kennedy started with the secret squads - first the Seals to go in and get something or someone and if everyone was killed doing it, too bad. Next came the Special Forces; wives of Special Forces have no idea where their hubbies are or what they are doing but based on my own experience, they make up the death squads, assasinatins, kidnappings, whatever is best for our country at the time and place. I would imagine Marines might be involved but it's usually Special Forces and other groups we don't know about - and we can't go on the offensive in Iraq since they do have an Interim govt; it is up to the interim govt to give permission to do that and with Allawi's history, he'd be all for it and it's about time. Hopefully they'll get a lot of terrorists this way and bring peace quicker.
Cindy
Posted by: firstbrokenangel at January 10, 2005 02:01 PM (D39Vm)
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Huh? I never left.
Anyways, Latin American death squads from the 80s were trained by US forces, but they weren't composed of US forces. The proposed Iraqi death squads would likely be the same as what was created back then - police officers by day, plainclothes thugs by night driving unmarked cars.
Posted by: Venom at January 10, 2005 06:43 PM (dbxVM)
11
Just the mere mention of the use death squads is sure
to get terrorists blood pressure up......throw the
Kurds into the mix and the baddies will be downright
dribblin in their boxers!!.... I love it
Posted by: MIGHTY WHITEY at January 10, 2005 09:19 PM (tLatX)
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Ah Salamander and Venom - why don't you two get together and do your own blog? You already have one, don't you Salamande? Why not make Venom a guest blogger?
ANYHOO - why are we telling the world, the terrorists, the insurgents everywhere that Iraq, for one, is considering using Death Squads, something we've always had elsewhere?? Dammit, why are we telling them (ie terrorists) ANYTHING at all?
I realize that news is important and MOST blogs give us the real news of the day BUT do we have to tell them everything? If we go around and tell them we're thinking of Death Squads in Iraq, what good does that do us or them?? Damn, some things should be kept quiet, kept secret. The terrorists in Iraq is a major death squad by themselves, so why are we giving them the "head's up?" Some things should not be told, especially to those people or how else is something like this going to surprise them? It's not and now it will only get worse because if someone tries to infiltrate, the trust is already gone. How can we function Death Squads if we tell the world about it?? Man, that is so stupid - someg things we should just not be telling THEM.
Cindy
Posted by: firstbrokenangel at January 10, 2005 10:59 PM (D39Vm)
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Yeah, it's always important to keep the formation of kidnappers and murderers into an organized group a secret from your own people. I mean, we wouldn't want our sensibilities to be offended...
Ah, ignorance is bliss, isn't it Cindy?
Posted by: Venom at January 11, 2005 09:11 AM (dbxVM)
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'I'm not very familiar with the training of the Contras in Nicaragua, though I do have a very basic understanding of the training and the goals of the operation. In essense, this trained squad would be made up entirely of Iraqis and their main goal would be to find, capture or kill those directing the insurgency and/or terrorist attacks. Sounds like a good plan to me.'
Are there any nuns in Iraq that we can have them kill?
Posted by: actus at January 11, 2005 12:29 PM (CqheE)
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Now, now, actus...that happened in El Salvador, not Nicaragua (unless you're referring to something I'm unaware of). But hey, I'm sure those nuns were secretly commie sympathizers who did their own share of kidnapping and murder when no one was looking.
Posted by: Venom at January 11, 2005 12:39 PM (dbxVM)
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'Now, now, actus...that happened in El Salvador, not Nicaragua (unless you're referring to something I'm unaware of). '
In nicaragua they just shot up wedding parties. But we do that on our now don't we? no need to outsource it.
Posted by: actus at January 11, 2005 02:14 PM (CqheE)
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They have their death squads. We should have ours. Nothing wrong with fighting back in kind. In fact, it works.
Now I will sit back and wait for some dork to say it may affect the price of eggs in Korea.
Posted by: greyrooster at January 11, 2005 11:02 PM (Vc+ll)
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As noted on the tv, Rumsfeld is denying any such thing as death squads; says people read too many spy novels, et al aVend the whole idea is a "flight of fancy."
Venom ro me. "Yeah, it's always important to keep the formation of kidnappers and murderers into an organized group a secret from your own people. I mean, we wouldn't want our sensibilities to be offended...
Ah, ignorance is bliss, isn't it Cindy?"
Boy you are an assole - what I said was why tell the world, especially the terrorists what we are going to do if indeed they do make these "death squads." We do not need to know everything the govt is going to do either but that was not in my statement. YOU DON'T PAY ATTENTION and you sure love to pick on me and I'M GETTING REALLY SICK AND TIRED OF YOU AND THE TROUBLE YOU CAUSE AROUND HERE! FOR THE LAST TIME YOU PRICK, I AM NOT IGNORANT but I know who is - you.
DON'T TALK TO ME EVERY AGAIN, YOU TROLL.
Cindy
Posted by: firstbrokenangel at January 12, 2005 12:13 AM (D39Vm)
Posted by: greyrooster at January 12, 2005 01:34 PM (R0PwA)
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ROOPESH: Has substance here. Any solutions?
Posted by: greyrooster at January 12, 2005 02:11 PM (R0PwA)
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