IÂ’m torn that two of my favorite bloggers are in a bit of a spat. On one side we have
. The other half is
. Dean is upset that Robert spends so much effort projecting a negative image of Islam. He thinks Robert is creating more problems than he solves. Robert is understandably standing his ground. The amazing part is neither seems read each other very much. Both are on the same side so to speak but have very different styles.
The subject of the discussion is more than relevant to The Jawa Report. We also engage in exposing the ideology of the terrorists. We also try and make as much fun of them as we can and have a good time doing it. Occasionally people get upset with us too. ItÂ’s a very difficult balance to take it to the ideology of terror and Islamic oppression and not upset at least some of the people Dean speaks of.
In HowieÂ’s opinion there is plenty of room for both of them. IÂ’ve linked Jihad Watch and Esmay both. I enjoy RobertÂ’s direct attacks and informative posts. I also enjoy DeanÂ’s blog. Dean points to their Carinval of the Liberated as one aspect of his blog he is quite proud of. I agree and I should link that more.
I worry that we, at times, go a bit overboard. I also worry that without criticizing Islam itself we lessen the motivation for the advancement/reform of Islam. Islam is all about struggle and it is struggling to fit in a new world. The west has a duty to also struggle in order to achieve an equitable balance. We must stand against that which is intolerable to our values.
I can identify a few issues that westerners should push for regardless. One would be RobertÂ’s main theme. The west should point out the aspects of Islam used by terrorists to justify their murderous crimes. But also there are more common yet still very important problems in Islamic nations. Traditional issues of freedom of religion, equal treatment and protections of women, political freedom and freedom of speech are all issues the west must raise with Islam in general. Credit Pope Benedict. We must hold Islam accountable on these issues in the same way we attacked Communism. We did not just attack the problems with communism we attacked communism itself to affect change with much success.
We need both Dean Esmay and Robert Spencer to keep doing what they do. Each has a role to play. Robert should take Deans criticism at face value. Also Esmay needs to consider Robert's concerns. The debate is a good thing. We can all be more thoughtful. But remember, we are human, we are limited by the amount of time we can spend on an issue. Most of us have no editorial help. We do the best we can. The blogosphere as a whole is a dynamic self policing entity. ItÂ’s not the Davids, itÂ’s the Army of them that makes it work.
So come on you guys, bury the hatchet. Hopefully after the dust clears both Robert and Dean will be better at what they do because of it. At least thatÂ’s how it is supposed to work.
I'm sure Rusty would have his own opinion and I for one would rather he got to do this one.
1
Robert Spencer is the expert. Dean is a rookie. I go with Robert every time.
Posted by: jesusland joe at May 18, 2006 09:15 AM (rUyw4)
2
Yes but they both have value.
Posted by: Howie at May 18, 2006 09:19 AM (D3+20)
3
You could say that Spencer is a johnny one note, on the other hand..
Spencer is doing admirable and
vital work considering that he's up against the very well funded [eg Saudi billions] al-Taqiyya/Dissimulation machine building mosques, corrupting Universities w/ grants, think tanks etc. around the world causing the advancement of sharia law and all the other sorts of corruption attached to the Ummah/ Religion of Peace®.
is Dean as effective as Spencer?
Posted by: Rubin at May 18, 2006 09:37 AM (edDuI)
4
Very thoughtful and balanced post, Howie. I absolutely agree that we, the west, have to figure out a way to be both critical of various aspects of Islam without being prejudiced against Islam and Muslims. One way to think of it is to look at our own history. For decades, black Americans were lynched, in public. They were denied the right to vote, to own businesses, to speak freely. They were denied right to jobs, to housing, to equal education. Those that spoke up were often killed or thrown in prison. These practices went on well into the second half of the 20th century.
What did our friends in Europe do? Some, like Gunnar Myrdal, studied our pathologies, and tried to aid our reforms. While Myrdal was vilified throughout much of the south (he got death threats), eventually, his work helped build the base for Brown v. Board and the civil rights movement.
But if Europe had tried to use force? Tried to fix our evil ways with aggressive sanctions?
Nothing Saudia arabia is doing to women or to shi'ites or to Christians is worse than what the American South did to blacks for decades after the civil war. We got better. There is hope for Islamic countries, but it will not come at the end of a gun. At least not the end of OUR guns.
Posted by: jd at May 18, 2006 09:42 AM (aqTJB)
5
I'm going with Spencer here, too. It is not the West's job to be loved by Islam, to reform it, or to accomodate itself to Islam. Islam must accomodate itself to Western values and ideas; until then it remains an enemy ideology. While, like Spencer, I would welcome any 'moderate' that respects western values, the fact remains that these people are, to steal a concept, "a tiny minority of extremists."
There is no reason to be sensitive to Islam or to tiptoe around this issue, as you seem to be implying. Those who are just, will know that we are not talkng about their beliefs; those who are not, should not be accomodated or knowtowed to.
Posted by: MiB at May 18, 2006 09:44 AM (B9sDR)
6
It may seem contradictory but it's not. I don't intend to be any softer or harder as I don't feel we can let up much. But I do recognize the value of making friends as well. They are both vital functions in my book. One balances the other and both are required to be effective. It's an odd synergy but I feel it works overall.
I can understand the frustration of one with the other because It's an internal stuggle I face daily.
I got an email tip the other day on the UAE hostages. He prefaced his tip with his less than favorable opinion of our blog. Immediately afterward he admitted we do a good job with hostage issues and asked that we post on it. So we have a half person out there who is both pissed at us and working with us at the same time.
Posted by: Howie at May 18, 2006 10:12 AM (D3+20)
7
Dean kind of trolled him to the argument/started it.
Posted by: Howie at May 18, 2006 12:30 PM (D3+20)
8
Friends do not have to be "made." You act as a just, good man, and the people who should be your friends become them; those who shouldn't, don't.
Posted by: MiB at May 18, 2006 10:26 PM (B9sDR)
9
Dean needs to review the history of islam beginning at the death of mohammed until the present.
If the muslims that were muslim at the time of momo's death didn't know how to faithfully execute his teachings who would?
Posted by: Tempest at May 19, 2006 07:32 AM (T9L62)
10
Tempest--if we apply that same standard to Christianity, most people would not approve of Christianity. Early Christians were taught to tolerate slavery, for example, and they did (Southerners found many defenses for slavery in the Bible, and they weren't always wrong in their exegesis). And if we applied the same standard to those who follow Moses today...polygamy, anyone? Stoning?
Seems a poor way to judge the worth of Islam, Christianity, or Judaism.
Posted by: jd at May 19, 2006 11:41 AM (aqTJB)
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