1 By the Left's definition of "theocracy", America has always been one. So it's not the "American Taliban" who are trying to turn us into a "theocracy", it's the Leftards who are trying to change how this country has always been. They are a secular taliban.

2 You know, it pisses me off when people call Ashcroft, Robertson, or Falwell "Taliban". it is the modern equivalent of "nazi". It isn't accurate. None of these gentlemen want to construct a state in which homosexuals are actually executed. None of them want to impose complete religous orthodoxy. By the same token, to call the ACLU "secular Taliban" seems more than a little offensive, more than a little extreme, and just a whole lot wrong. The ACLU would be the secular Taliban if they executed Christians for not converting to secularism, or forced women to NOT wear modest clothing on pain of death. Relax--there is no war on Christmas, and what little war there is on Christians is a skirmish at best. Christians are and will remain the majority. Polls show that atheists are far less popular, and have real trouble getting elected to anything. They also have their children taken from them, just because they are not Christian (it has happened in more than 70 documented divorces, and these are just the cases where the judge actually SAYS it). If there's a war going on here, it is against atheists. But neither side in this "war" is anything like the Taliban.

3 Well Carlos the country is changing. It has always been in the process of change, most of it for the good. Social and political conservatives are usually against change. Things that we now take for granted like the right of women to vote were considered frighteningly radiacal 100 years ago. Discrimination against catholics was prevalent even in the 1960 presidential election. That was the way things used to be. Our country has survived and thrived on its ability to change.

4 jd, the difference is Falwell tolerates different viewpoints in the marketplace of ideas-- the secular taliban doesn't. That's why they're always in court.

5 >>>Well Carlos the country is changing. That's fine. But it's the "American taliban" that is constantly accused by the Left of wanting to change this country into a theocracy. Obviously that's just another lie from the "reality based community". The worst the christian fundies can be accused of is not going along with the Leftwing program. And there are plenty of non-fundies who aren't going along with it either.

6 The ACLU (secular taliban to you--thanks for neither responding to my pointing out how nobody in our cultural wars deserves to be called Taliban nor from refraining from it--feel better, now that you have libeled your enemies? something in that Bible you love so much about bearing false witness? Or you have the expurgated version?) doesn't object to ANY groups expressing themselves, whether it is Jerry Falwell or NAMBLA or Nazis, so long as they are doing it with their own money, on their own land, or in a public place that is open to all other expressions (ie, free speech zone). What they DO object to is government sponsorship of religious speech or government discrimination against certain speech. You can think they draw the net too widely, but you certainly can't say that they are "taliban" or that they don't want Mr. Falwell to have his speech. They just don't want our tax dollars to pay for Mr. Falwell's speech. Back when Baptists were Baptists (as John Ryan wisely points out, these things change), they ardently opposed any government sponsorship of religion. That's why Jefferson's letter on wall of separation was the Danbury BAPTISTS. In truth, the founders were very divided on the precise line between church and state, and Jefferson, along with Paine and some others, were on the left of that debate. But most of the major founders were Deists of one kind or another, and that is a very different thing from what we think of today as "Christian fundamentalist". It is intellectually dishonest for people like Falwell to point to "endowed by their creator" in the DOI and say that proves we are a Christian nation. Jefferson didn't even believe in the divinity of Christ, and even a cursory glance at a bio of him proves this.

7 The ACLU is one of the most vile groups in this country and the usial rotten seculay judges i mean we need to revoke the ACLUs tax exempt status this group is as bad as AL QUEDA and as nasty as any communists group and lets remember its got its HQ in HANOI ON THE BAY or SAN FRANCISCO

8 ACLU is for what ever feeeeellllsss good. It is a New Age religion. A few examples are, abortion as a form of birth control, gay marriage, and NAMBLA. The ACLU is trying very hard to shape America to appear like Europe. Where there are no limits, and forget about morality, because it is hate speech. This is New Age thought, and New Age religion where children grow up not understanding limits, or what is right, and wrong. P.S. For those who are wondering what NAMBLA is, it is child sex between a man, and boy. SICKOS. One of the biggest LIES of the ACLU, and their like is the founding fathers were Deists. They were not. Most prayed to Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.

9 Actually, Leatherneck, I didn't say that the Founding Fathers were all deists. I said "most of the major founders" but that's a little vague. How about Thomas Paine, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, James Madison, and James Monroe? That's the Father of the DOI, the Father of our Country, the Father of our Constitution, the author of Common Sense "the pen of the Revolution", the greatest intellect at the time of the Founding, and, in total, four of the first five presidents of the United States? That good enough for ya, Leatherneck? Deism was very popular in intellectual circles at the time of the founding, and is best characterized by this quote from Voltaire: "the existence of a watch presupposes the existence of a watchmaker". This is what Jefferson meant by "nature and nature's God"

10 jd, you are wrong. You want to be right, but you are not, and never will be. Perhaps, your lot will change all of history to suit your New Age agenda. That being said jd, I will not cut your stupid head off for believing as you do.

11 Thanks for letting me keep my head on my non-leathery neck. But if I'm wrong, do me the favor of showing me where. Are you saying these men were not Deists? Are you saying that other, more important founders were not Deists (Adams?)? Are you saying that my interpretation of Deism is wrong? (certainly, there were differences in the Deist beliefs of Washington and Jefferson. Washington clearly had no problem with a national proclamation about prayer, and Jefferson did). It is easy to say "you're wrong". But it really isn't the glimmer of a refutation.

12 Incidentally, Adams was a Unitarian, which makes five of the first five presidents either Deists or unitarians. If this was a "Christian" nation, it wasn't in any sense a Christian nation the way most Christians today would understand it. Moreover, Washington approved a treaty with the Barbary States which stated EXPLICITLY that the US was not a Christian nation.

13 //home.aol.com/TestOath/deism.htl www.creationists.org Keep those lies to yourself.

14 >>>What they DO object to is government sponsorship of religious speech or government discrimination against certain speech. jd, thanks for reciting the talking points to me (like I hadn't already heard them a thousand times). I can tell the difference between government sponsorship of religion vs what the Left claims is government sponsorship of religion, thank you.

15 Leatherneck--great site on religious history of US. I was wrong about Adams, I think, upon reading that. I didn't realize how significant the Emerson influence on Unitarianism was. I should have known, though, given Adams' status as the first president to exploit religion falsely (he called Jefferson an atheist and/or satanist, although they later patched things up when both were in retirement). But the website is in error on deism, particularly in its treatment of Paine and Jefferson. It uses Deism's critics to define it, which is hardly balanced. Also, it ignores the fact that deism was an incredibly diverse philosophical school, without a unifying document. It was founded on the belief in reason, and for that reason, Jefferson wrote a bible that removed all miracles. He didn't believe in the divinity of Christ, he believed in Christ's teachings. He had a real problem with the trinity, as did many deists. But an interesting site, nonetheless. I'm intrigued by the quote from Hamilton. As one of my favorite Founders, Hamilton is one whose view on this I actually don't know and should.

16 Hey JD...yeah there is a war going on against the athiests...when they want to tear crosses down that commemorate my ancestors that have fought for our freedom and theirs, you darn tootin there is going to be war. Just as we do not tolerate terrorists attcking our country, we will not stand for our own people attacking us. If they do not like how this country is ran or what it was found on..they can leave with my blessing. Let them start their own country with their own rules They can have no crosses, no christians, the ACLU and all the baby killing abortionist and homosexuals they want. They can call it Rainbow City.But when it comes to my freedoms they better back off because I will fight to the death for what I believe.