May 15, 2006
Los Actuadores (The Cheaters)
The President made it clear in his address tonight that he will not support the deportation of the millions of illegal aliens who are already in the country. Sure, the proposal to tighten up the border is welcome, if long overdue.
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I disagree with Bush's characterization of these folks as "decent people". Besides the initial criminal act of sneaking into the country, they have been evading taxes since they got here, while consuming social services in numbers that have strained the resources of many states. Al Capone went to prison for income tax evasion. Was he a decent guy, too? Maybe the Capone comparison is a bit extreme; what about the guy who cuts ahead of you in line? Is he a decent guy...or an asshole?
So, they pay a fine, and their back taxes, and promise to learn English; then supposedly go to the back of the line for citizenship.
But what if they don't take the deal? We're talking, after all, about ignorant, unskilled people with faulty moral compasses who just may decide that it's better to stay in the shadows, especially since it's doubtful that many of them have the financial resources to come up with a few thousand dollars in back taxes.
What do we do if 8 or 10 million of los actuadores decide not to take the deal?
Cross-posted at The Dread Pundit Bluto.
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1
pass more legislation and throw another $Million or two at it ...
Posted by: Last gasp Larry at May 15, 2006 08:36 PM (FCC6c)
2
Amnesty or not, Texas is sending one famous Mexican back home in a box on June 28th.
How many more will be necessary?
Posted by: Laurence Simon at May 15, 2006 09:02 PM (gT8DW)
3
When Reagan gave them amnesty, there were only 1 million illegals according to estimates. Today (and probably because amnesty) there are 12 million illegals.
Nothing but the harshest measures are going to make any difference. They'll keep coming because they sense that we have no resolve to get tough.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at May 15, 2006 09:23 PM (8e/V4)
4
Well of course what Al Capone was convicted of was much worse. Tax evasion is a FELONY AS IT SHOULD BE. Failure to file a tax form is at worst a humble misdemeanor. Single individuals earning less than 8200 dollars may also not have to file. As for them being ignorant, unskilled people with faulty moral compasses I am not sure that all would agree with that statement. I do not.
Posted by: john Ryan at May 15, 2006 09:30 PM (TcoRJ)
5
You guys lost, the illegals and their supporters won.
Posted by: MiB at May 15, 2006 09:31 PM (XuEw/)
6
Time to get realistic and honest, calling them illegals as though they had done something immoral is stupid. For the most part they are hard working people who are trying to escape poverty for themselves and their families. Calling them illegals as though it attaches some moral stigma that can not be over looked, is like calling a child who steals a loaf of bread, a thief. So now we want a war on illegals do we? When are we ever going to learn to work with market forces and not against them? How did the "war on alcohol" go oh that's right we gave up on that one. Well how about the war on poverty? Ya that worked out real well. Oh lets not forget the “war on drugs” that one is sure to be successful. I mean we only been at that one for what 30 years or so. The fact is there is a market here for labor that they provide, and the fact that we are, for all intense and purposes at full employment, put the lie to the fact that they are taking jobs away from Americans. Most of these people are hard working law abiding salt of the earth decent human beings. They are a net asset not a net liability. Lets secure the border but lets be honest about the vast of majority of those that are here already. And lets be honest about the contributions they make and that if you can’t keep contraband out of a prison due to market forces what makes you think you can seal our southern border without recognizing we need the labor they provide as much as they need the jobs we provide. It is a win win situation. I am a life long conservative but I have never been as fed up with fellow conservatives and all the griping that has been going on as of late. Stay home this fall and just see how badly you all marginalize yourselves and the fact that you put the war against our true enemies at stake. And we do have real enemies and they are not poor Mexicans trying to get here so that they may provide a living for themselves. I would say you are the one with a faulty moral compass.
Posted by: Cameron at May 15, 2006 09:53 PM (c8RAF)
7
They say 12 million. I bet it's closer to 20 or more. If you read some of the stuff written by the Aztlan people you'll see that their agenda does not include assimilating and learning English. They are here to take back the southwest.
I've never had a problem with immigrants. I think they make great Americans. But look who's coming over the border. These are not rocket scientists. Mexico is cleaning out their country and sending us the refuse. We cannot absorb 10s of millions of illiterate and unskilled migrants. The US is not a bottomless pit of resources as some seem to think. Illegals have no business here and they sure don't have any business waving their flag in my face
Posted by: Richard at May 15, 2006 10:40 PM (7KF8r)
8
And while I'm on the subject, I've never seen a more worthless congress and president. The American people want no part of amnesty and yet, Bush continues the mantra as if he doesn't hear us. His hubris is only outweighed by his ignorance.
Posted by: Richard at May 15, 2006 10:44 PM (7KF8r)
9
Gosh Cameron, you're right. Calling them "illegal" is just plain wrong.
BTW, did you know the BTK serial killer was a Boy Scout leader?
But hey, let's not judge what he did as "illegal" because goddammit, he was a salt of the earth kinda guy, just trying to provide for his family.
Then, I must have a faulty moral compass.
Oh yeah, your comment wins the "Run On Sentence Of The Year" award.
Posted by: Vinnie at May 15, 2006 11:23 PM (/qy9A)
10
Oh I'm sorry, you're right. Some poor bastard trying to provide a living for himself and his family is on the same moral plain as the BTK killer. Thanks for setting me straight. Hey you know it seems to me you and your commenters have more in common with the Koskids then I had noticed in the past. I used to enjoy this blog, wont be coming back. Wouldn't want to upset your apple cart by requesting you actually address the points I raised, rather than quibble with my run on sentance. ba-bye
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame,
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Posted by: Cameron at May 15, 2006 11:35 PM (c8RAF)
11
It is strange to such Americans be such blind law-worshippers - you'd think here, of all places, they would teach that the law itself has no intrinsic value, it is what the law prohibits that is either good/bad.
Yet you constantly see the same comparison. Crossing the border illegally is the same as robbing the bank, as killing someone, etc. It really is astounding what the liberal school system has done to America - and that these are the so-called 'conservatives' that harken back to America's core values. As if.
Take Richard, for example. He completely ignores that it is indeed a fact that America has in the past absorbed tens of millions of "ignorant, unskilled workers" and done just fine.
What is doing America in, and what *will* do it in no matter how many (or few) immigrants come across the border, is socialism. To use illegals as a convenient scapegoat for the fact that America is on its way to economic collapse because of irresponsible, theiving socialism is an evasion of the facts of reality. Minus the outright theivery that the US Government practices in its socialist programs, immigration wouldn't be a problem; even with it, you have greater concerns than 10, 20 or 30 million illegals who's great crime is, for the most part, wanting to work in a country that isn't quite as corrupt and socialist as Mexico.
Your problem is that America is fading away, and all the illegal immigrants do is highlight this problem. Your culture is not even being transferred to your children - let alone immigrants who you wish to assimilate to your culture. Your tax programs are rushing the country headlong into bankruptcy, funding impossibly stupid socialist agendas. None of your political parties are able to muster the moral courage to cut spending by anything but a paltry, pale sum compared to what the federal government spends.
And you're blaming the illegals for your problems?
Posted by: MiB at May 16, 2006 12:12 AM (XuEw/)
12
National sales tax. Problem solved. Illegal immigrants, hookers, drug dealers, all other "under the table workers" pay their tax whenever they buy a burger.
Posted by: crosspatch at May 16, 2006 01:22 AM (kNJth)
13
Dumb ass clowns. If you're an illegal working for a business, you pay taxes. $6 billion a year from illegals, who get no social security, no medicare, nothing.
Jesus, it's no surprise you shivering fools are racists, but you're so stupid it's hard to even reply.
"We're talking, after all, about ignorant, unskilled people with faulty moral compasses ..."
Yes, right, of course. People doing work you can't do are "ignorant, unskilled." People who work their ass off so you have produce (not that you'd know what to do with fresh produce) have "faulty moral compasses."
Fuck you clowns. Your time is up.
Posted by: Jesus H. Christ at May 16, 2006 01:27 AM (yCe05)
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Unashamed Patriot - You're forgetting to add that Mexicans are here to steal our precious bodily fluids. DENY THEM YOUR ESSENCE!!
Posted by: JD Ripper at May 16, 2006 01:38 AM (WCg0/)
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Jesus H. Christ: "Dumb ass clowns. If you're an illegal working for a business, you pay taxes. $6 billion a year from illegals, who get no social security, no medicare, nothing." A great many get food stamps, housing, medicaid and the ones that do pay taxes rarely pay more than just SS and Medicare. They claim enough dependents to escape federal taxes entirely. And that's just the ones that don't get paid under the table.
MiB: Your tax programs. Your problem. Your culture. Your political parties. You're blaming. blah,blah,blah...
And what are YOU? Just one of life's bystanders? "To use illegals as a convenient scapegoat for the fact that America is on its way to economic collapse because of irresponsible, theiving socialism is an evasion of the facts of reality." No, MiB. You're evading facts of reality. You're also evading the questions and points I've brought up to you over and over.
April 7th:
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/169113.php
April 12th:
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/170396.php
May 3rd
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/174937.php
Cameron: If you want to get "realistic and honest", then visit ALL the facts. Not just the ones that are touchy-feely to you and that make your opponent look bad. We call that intellectual dishonesty. Look it up. Also, look up "Sanctuary City" and see exactly what problems arise from what is essentially granting amnesty. And while you're at it look up how many hospitals have shut down in Los Angeles due to "undocumented" people using them for primary care and skipping the part where you pay your bill. I could give you dozens of examples, but I'm sure you're an enterprising individual and can think of a few yourself.
To each of you - quit evading the problems and painting only roses around the picture. There are thorns too.
And does anyone think that this new "comprehensive" plan will be followed through? That they'll actually enforce these new rules? Bush said not a word about sanctuary cities. He wants to punish companies who hire illegals but not his fellow politicians of cities that defy federal law. Yes, most of these people are decent and hard working. I lived in Texas and got to know many Mexicans. Great people. But we have to be more discriminating about who stays and who goes.
Posted by: Oyster at May 16, 2006 05:09 AM (YudAC)
16
Someone fix my bold tags, please.
Posted by: Oyster at May 16, 2006 05:10 AM (YudAC)
17
"Dumb ass clowns. If you're an illegal working for a business, you pay taxes. $6 billion a year from illegals, who get no social security, no medicare, nothing."
Go to the Children's Hospital clinic in Northwest DC. You will see a waiting room of people receiving FREE health care. I had to pay a co-pay but they had to pay nothing, otherwise they might not bring their children in. I went through 3 pediatricians in less than a year. One of them confessed that all of their patients are "high maintenance" requiring no end of education and explanation on how they should be raising their children. We recently moved out of DC. It is called 'white flight' and it was very justified.
The cause of this is the crappy conditions in their own countries. I see no better way to force change in them than to send millions of protesters back home.
10-20 million Mexican live in the US already (half legally) This is 10-20% of the ENTIRE Mexican population. Where do we draw the line? I suggest we annex Mexico. Then we can address the real problems back there.
Posted by: Fred Fry at May 16, 2006 06:11 AM (JXdhy)
18
Hey JC - Our "time is up"? That sounds like a threat. And you ignore the fact that immigrants in the past came here to become Americans. The current wave of invaders has no such intent. And I knew you'd eventually throw out the race card. It always come to that doesn't it? As I said fairly clearly, I've never had a problem with immigrants. I don't judge people on their color and I don't think the vast majority of Americans are racists. Your hatred of whitey is screwing up your thinking.
Posted by: Richard at May 16, 2006 07:48 AM (7KF8r)
19
Oyster: Sent you an email the last time you complained, if you'll recall TJR's comments section was down from spammers. If you didn't bother to read it, I will gladly resend it; if you did and are just wasting my time, well, don't bother.
Posted by: MiB at May 16, 2006 08:29 AM (XuEw/)
20
MiB: this is a matter for Americans to debate. You wouldn't appreciate it if we interfered in your own internal Mexican affairs, now, would you?
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at May 16, 2006 09:11 AM (RHG+K)
21
ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS cost the taxpayers of the USA millions maybe billions a year. free healthcare, education (if we are lucky they learn english), and in crime/prison costs.
The LEGAL IMMIGRANTS are the real victims of this lack of border control.
We need to secure the border. And keep it secure.
Then we need to deport the convicted criminals - let them harm the folks in their own country.
Then we can deal with the hard working illegals. And treat them nicely.
Posted by: marvin at May 16, 2006 10:05 AM (bVurk)
22
>>>Some poor bastard trying to provide a living for himself and his family is on the same moral plain as the BTK killer.
Cameron ,
If there are pro-illegal arguments, that's not one of them. Public policy run by heartstrings is doomed to fail, and makes me think you're actually a Liberal posing as a conservative.
Oh, and yes, they're ILLEGALS.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at May 16, 2006 10:48 AM (8e/V4)
23
Bluto,
any chance at all you could ban that blithering idiot 'unashamed patriot'? Everybody knows he's just a Leftwing troll posing. He makes my skin crawl.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at May 16, 2006 10:54 AM (8e/V4)
24
JHC,
illegals drive down wages, drain our resources, and make a mockery of our laws and sovereignty.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at May 16, 2006 11:04 AM (8e/V4)
25
>>>"And you're blaming the illegals for your problems?"
Mib,
I'm not blaming illegals for our problems, I'm blaming our craven politicians and business interests for causing our problems-- including this one.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at May 16, 2006 11:07 AM (8e/V4)
26
tone-deaf is what our President is, as well as stupid and arrogant. Tone-deaf to the American people has been his mantra since day one or even before day one when he thwarted the voting process with help from Katherin Harris.
Yes, and you all get the " diaheara of the mouth " award.
Posted by: Last gasp Larry at May 16, 2006 11:34 AM (FCC6c)
27
MiB, for one thing I'm not "complaining". But if that's the way you like to portray it, fine. It's possible your email ended up in my trash bin due to filters. However, I checked the trash bin all the way back to May 8th and found nothing that wasn't truly junk mail.
Posted by: Oyster at May 16, 2006 11:41 AM (ASk6Y)
28
I, for one, welcome our Mexican overlords.
Remember the media is helpful at getting your slaves to work in your underground sugar mines.
Posted by: Kent Brockman at May 16, 2006 11:43 AM (qhMOt)
29
Oyster: Resent the email, check your inbox (da_oyster at yahoo dot com). It was sent, according to my sent box, on may 5th.
Bluto said:
"MiB: this is a matter for Americans to debate. You wouldn't appreciate it if we interfered in your own internal Mexican affairs, now, would you?"
Since I'm an American, but decidedly not one of you people who seem hellbent on fixing the doorlock when the foundation is about to collapse, that is irrelevant.
It would also be irrelevant if I wasn't an American. Nationality does not have an affect on what right and wrong is.
Jesusland: Public policy run by kneejerk reactionism is also bound to fail. You might want to consider fixing the actual problems instead of bothering with the illegals.
Posted by: MiB at May 16, 2006 02:11 PM (Uesws)
30
Problems with comprehension Jesusland Carlos, I made an economic argument.
So now we want a war on illegals do we? When are we ever going to learn to work with market forces and not against them? How did the "war on alcohol" go oh that's right we gave up on that one. Well how about the war on poverty? Ya that worked out real well. Oh lets not forget the “war on drugs” that one is sure to be successful. I mean we only been at that one for what 30 years or so. The fact is there is a market here for labor that they provide, and the fact that we are, for all intense and purposes at full employment, put the lie to the fact that they are taking jobs away from Americans
Posted by: Cameron at May 16, 2006 03:44 PM (c8RAF)
31
MiB: I don't believe that you are an American. Your loyalty clearly lies with Mexico. Perhaps it's time to return?
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at May 16, 2006 05:43 PM (RHG+K)
32
Trolling will get you nowhere with me, Bluto.
You can be sour grapes all you want, but the fact of the matter is the right side won in this one - the true, American solution will go forward by default through the moral cowardice of your so-called leaders.
The conservative 'movement' was stillborn, and this is just the latest showcase of that fact. You guys lost before you even started. This is just the latest exhibit showing off the conservatives' complete lack of principled, moral leadership.
Perhaps, at last, some people will look into the actual solution to socialism and surrender to the terrorists, which is not mealy-mouthed lipservice to the American past and frightened, "pragmatic" leaders, but the true capitalists of an era far better than today.
Posted by: MiB at May 16, 2006 06:06 PM (Uesws)
33
MiB are living on planet earth? Does MiB stand for Moonbat in Basement? The conservative movement was stillborn Hahahahaha the conservative movement is been gaining speed for the past 30 years. In fact Reagan was the cause of techtonic shift towards consevative ideas. Heck even Libs talk about balancing the budget. You are nuts.
Posted by: Cameron at May 16, 2006 06:31 PM (c8RAF)
34
Protip: By "balancing the budget" they mean "raising taxes."
I'll believe the conservative movement wasn't stillborn when government spending is actually lowered by a significant percentage, say 10%.
Posted by: MiB at May 16, 2006 07:57 PM (Uesws)
35
MiB,
the fact that we're even talking about immigration is proof enough that the conservative movement is alive and well. The issues being discussed generally are issues that are important to conservatives, not Liberals. Do you even have issues anymore? I don't mean platitudes, I mean real policy issues. You Libs have nothing. You certainly don't talk about anything. All you have is being against conservatives. That's why the Dems stand for nothing. They are only against. You've been reduced to the role of foils. Without conservatives to oppose, you'd dissapear in puff of smoke.
You know that shitty sinking feeling you Libs get everytime you hear the news? That's the conservative movement. And this movement is far bigger than mere politicians and so-called leaders who fail us from time to time (see Bush). It's the American people waking up and rubbing the cobwebs from their eyes after 30 years of Liberal dystopia. Now the trick is to keep our so-called leaders honest lest they stray. But don't mistake their misdeeds and ommissions for the conservative movement. Two very different things.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at May 17, 2006 01:10 AM (8e/V4)
36
Carlos:
I'm not a liberal, by any stretch of the imagination. Did you notice me condemning socialism all the time and all that?
Yeah, I guess you were too busy bracketing me in your tiny, prepackaged categories. Not being a mindless conservative fool must make me a mindless liberal fool.
Posted by: MiB at May 17, 2006 04:52 AM (Uesws)
37
Also, the "sinking feeling I get" when I watch the news is the one a rational person gets while watching his country descend into socialism, nannyism and cowardly evasion of the war on islamofascism.
Good job "conservatives," you've really got the ball rolling on the small government and defending America. And, by the way, "the liberals would have done it slightly worse!" is not an excuse.
Posted by: MiB at May 17, 2006 04:54 AM (Uesws)
38
>>>I'm not a liberal, by any stretch of the imagination.
Mib,
then what in God's name are you doing trolling conservative blogs for? What a moron.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at May 17, 2006 08:47 AM (8e/V4)
39
Just letting you know how wrong you are and how much you've failed in the past 6 years, and how much more failure you've got ahead of you in the next two.
It really is indicative of how pathetic the conservatives are when their entire argument of why to vote for them is that the democrats will screw America up slightly more. Which, while true, is also an immaterial difference in the long run.
Posted by: MiB at May 17, 2006 12:59 PM (Uesws)
40
>>>Which, while true, is also an immaterial difference in the long run.
Mib,
the key word there being "true". And given we've only got two choices, I can think of no better reason for voting GOP. Who do you suggest we vote for? This is going to be good.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at May 17, 2006 01:34 PM (8e/V4)
41
I suggest you stop tolerating the two parties' status quo right now. They flourish only *because* of this "I am going to vote for someone slightly less worse" mentality.
An alternative WILL NOT APPEAR until people actually stop choosing the lesser of two evils. Until they stop, there is no market for someone who is right, because there is very little untapped voters who will actually be motivated to come out and vote.
Regarding the difference between Republicans and Democrats: The choices seem to be something along the lines of, bankruptcy and economic stagnation in 20 years, 15 years, or you gamble on telling both breeds of socialists to go to hell and see if you can't rally around someone who will avoid bankruptcy and economic depression entirely.
Such a small mind, that you would not consider the long-term consequences of choosing the lesser of two evils. The consequence is the evil wins.
Posted by: MiB at May 17, 2006 03:57 PM (Uesws)
42
Mib,
as expected, no answer to my question. And until you do answer that question, you offer only useless platitudes.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at May 17, 2006 04:30 PM (8e/V4)
43
Wow, a website full of shit.
Posted by: US Labor at May 17, 2006 04:55 PM (vaYLC)
44
I did answer your question. I suggested you not vote until someone decent comes out. As long as you keep the mentality of "lesser of two evils," no real candidate will come out except the two evils, because people will be invested in the fallacious concept that voting for the lesser of two evils makes a difference in the long run, and think that *THIS* election is far more important than what happens 20 years down the road if you keep tolerating the lesser of two evils.
I was quite clear about that. I would appreciate it if you didn't just ignore what I say.
Posted by: MiB at May 17, 2006 05:21 PM (Uesws)
45
Mib,
that's unilateral disarmament. I'm not about to hand the country over to the greater of the two evils.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at May 17, 2006 06:55 PM (8e/V4)
46
That is precisely what you're doing. Today's greater of two evil's is tomorrow's lesser of two evils.
It is you, more than any hardcore socialist, that is destroying America. And you are doing it more thoroughly than any Soviet pawn could have dreamed of. I hope you are happy with the results of your work.
Posted by: MiB at May 17, 2006 09:47 PM (B9sDR)
47
Mib,
you're talking out of your ass.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at May 18, 2006 08:35 AM (8e/V4)
48
You could look at history to confirm that, indeed, yesterday's greater of two evils is indeed today's lesser of two evils, but I'm sure thats too much trouble for a far-thinking socialist like you.
Posted by: MiB at May 18, 2006 09:46 AM (B9sDR)
49
America is full of cry babies. The same things America cry's about, they have done to people or doing the very same thing right now. Where are the first people in America? Where are the American Indians? White America wants everything for themselves.
Not every person in a race are unworthy. Not every illegal here are from Mexico. Not every illegal here are criminals. Virtually every illegal will work you under the table, after you quit will still keep working. Virtually every illegal here are better people then you. Virtually every illegal here wants nothing more then to live the American dream. The American dream that you and I were lucky enough to be born into. The same American dream people of the world wants. The American dream some Americans don't deserve, but still get it.
How many of you cry babies have enlisted into the service to protect that American dream we all take for granted? Some of you? Most of you? Everyone of you?
I'm for securing the border, but not to be a raciest like some. It's to keep the real terrorist out, the bin laden followers. The terrorist that came through the legal way. What a direct contrast. Come here legally and kills thousand, come here illegally get killed.
The people that starts putting a race, religion, or groups down with mean spirited words only show their true character, which to me is a morally reprehensible person.
Posted by: Tony at May 20, 2006 02:57 PM (BJYNn)
50
Cameron and Troy: Sounds good. Now check out the prison population, welfare roles, bankrupt hospitals and downhill slide of the education system in California and get real. Problem with moonbats is that they can sould so caring. I to care. About my people!
Mexico is the third rate country for one reason and one reason only. IT'S FULL OF MEXICANS. Dingbats.
Posted by: greyrooster at May 22, 2006 06:29 AM (J4a4p)
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