1 I wish there was something I could say that would convince liberals that these people are evil and must be destroyed, but to them, these are the good guys. Liberals and muslims are scum and should all be killed.

2 While I don't plan to check out the photos, what's the "visual evidence" that suggests the person was killed first, then beheaded?

3 The visual evidence he was murdered first- it appears the victim was shot in the head before being beheaded.

4 IM, As a liberal scum, I can attest that not all of us support murders. In fact, as a verbal and fiscal supporter of Israel as well as the destruction of the terrorist freaks anywhere and everywhere, your diatribe makes no sense. Please keep that in mind when you go on your killing spree. Funny how you sound so much like those that you hate. Those that you attest to hate spout the same, "kill them all their scum" crap? How ironic. LS

5 They are disgusting animals. Venom, visual evidence might be lack of blood on exposed tissue. If beheaded while alive, the blood would have covered everything.

6 Good grief LS, take yourself a little bit more serious! Get a life..

7 I hate to sound typically Christian-Republican, but remember that part in the Gospel when the crowd perferred the release of the convicted killer over the release of Jesus? Makes me think of people turning a blind eye to Palestinian evil in favor of condemning Israel.

8 Keeping a head in a bag like that is barbaric! Don't they think about how quickly it will rot? You need to keep it in a Refrigerator like Idi Amin did,,, or maybe send it to the taxidermist. Man, these Palestinians are really brutes!

9 LS When someone is confronted with the mutilated head of human being the NORMAL reaction is extreme anger and rage. I am glad you are a supporter of Israel. But to be very blunt, most liberals think this sort of thing is just peachy-keen for arabs to do or they try to pretend they didn't hear anything. Why do you think this image wasn't plastered all over the TV? Remember when the US soldiers in afghanistan burnt the corpses for hygenic reasons? We never heard the end of it. -ron

10 Liberals are traitors. I had a girlfriend who thought the same way: you call them scum, they call you scum, what's the difference between you and them? Well the difference is I don't run around indiscriminately killing Catholic schoolgirls and beheading them. I hate them muslims for all they're worth but I wouldn't go around killing muslim women and children. They don't draw any distinction whatsoever. You could be 2 months old. If you're white and western, you're the infidel and deserve to die. GET IT????? Our troops do not equal muslim "freedom fighters. " We seek to minimize collateral damage. they seek to maximize it. If you still don't get it - f*ck you. I'm tired of explaining basic issues of morality with people who obviously have none.

11 Don't be foolish - they would have taped the beheading - much more propoganda in that then merely showing a human head. they most likely robbed a grave. Remember the fake funeral they tried to stage? I would suggest a few plane loads of napalm in gaza as a reminder that they can only respect a force stronger than themselves.

12 Dr. Rusty, please stop saying "children"--all you ever see is boys, not boys and girls. and ron, joy and triumphalism is a normal tribal reaction to the severed head of one's enemy. There is a long history of cultural anthropology where warring bedouin tribes beheaded kidnapped captives on the plains of battle, often in front of the opposing tribe, as a kind of boast or threat. That is why the Bush/Blair policy in Iraq is so important--less tribesmen, more citizens.

13 "But to be very blunt, most liberals think this sort of thing is just peachy-keen..." Huh? We're the hand-wringing, tree-huggers that don't want to see anyone killed -- remember? No liberal I know (and I associate with hundreds) thinks any kind of murder / execution is accpetable. Religious and nationalistic fanaticism is the biggest threat to peace. From the insanely ignorant and murderous Islamacists at the extreme to our own more moderate "just kill him" televangelist Pat Robertson, to the fundmentalists in Kansas -- we all have nutbags among us. Every time I hear someone cry about the atrocity of a beheading, I wonder if the same person cries about about the deaths in Abu Grahaib? Is beaing starved or beaten to death inside a body bag somehow more human than a beheading? It's all wrong. And it all needs to stop. I think we need to stay in Iraq until the job is done -- we owe that to ourselves, our interests and to the Iraqi people. We don't get to go in and turn a country into rubble and anarchy and just leave. However, I think it required within a democracy to hold our elected officials accountable for every lie, every bit of witheld data, every exaggeration when it comes to starting a war. Calling this administration to task for bungling this effort is the MOST patriotic thing we can do. I think we all, liberals, convservatives alike work best we we stick to an issue and refuse to make assumptions about each other.

14 There have been no Israeli hostages in Gaza.

15 Brad's full of it...he makes assumptions about the President he can't -- and will never -- prove. Brad, there's no such thing as an honest liberal. Like you, Liberals are full-bore traitors who are oh-so-sensitive about being recognized as traitors.

16 The claim, it seems, is that this is an IDF soldier's head.

17 Tom, Just the kind of non-helpful comment that reduce discussion to name calling. Calling me a traitor? Based upon what? The last traitor I recall was the one who outed an acting CIA agent. I wonder if that person was a liberal? And Tom, I'm not making assumptions, only reacting to data as it's publicly available. I didn't question the president's motives -- that can't be known. What I do question are his administrations actions: 1. Allowing Rumsfeld, Cheney and Wolfowitz to "trump" senior military planners at the outset of this war. Bad decision. At least he's accepted a more realistic assessment of the war during his recent speach an Annapolis. 2. Claiming that Iraq had unmanned aircraft that could drop biological weapons on the US East coast. They didn't have them. The administration spoke too soon and without the full story. 3. The aluminum tubes -- the administration claimed that "had to be for use within a nuclear (excuse me 'nooo-cue-ler') weapons." They weren't and it was only a matter of weeks before all the facts were in. 4. "We have found the WMDs" No they didn't. They found mobile helium producing labs. 5. "Medicaid reform will cost a maximum of $400B" Nope. Costs over $700B, and our friend Scooter was caught threatening to fire the government accountant who was going to notify congress of the true numbers. Tom care to discuss any of these in detail? Or are you going back to your Ann Coulter inflatable love doll?

18 Tom, You reacted to one portion of my original post -- were there other parts you agreed with?

19 "However, I think it required within a democracy to hold our elected officials accountable for every lie, every bit of witheld data, every exaggeration when it comes to starting a war. Calling this administration to task for bungling this effort is the MOST patriotic thing we can do." [emphasis mine] Boy, this one would require a full post. First, you're assuming there were lies, withheld data and exaggerations. Second, to hold "this administration" to task for anything without a mere mention of the lies, withheld data and exaggerations including subversive tactics, accusations and all else perpetrated by many in the House and Senate simply for a political advantage - is disingenuous. And I haven't even started on anything related to "when it comes to starting a war". Or even executing a war. Don't get me started on THAT.

20 Oyster, I should have clarified my post -- I didn't mean to assume that lies were told. We got a bunch of things wrong, but to call them lies assumes things I don't know. I do think there is enough "smoke" for an investigation though. Only partisans would have something to fear from an investigation. We spent more money investigating a blow job than we have the lead up to this war. I do wish the president and cheney had testified to the 9/11 commission under oath and without each other present and without the ban on note taking or recording devices -- that kind of condition makes me suspicious. Too, I wish Bush had accepted either of Rumsfeld's two resignations. If we really want to support our troops, a good place to start would be to find a more appropriate job for Mr. Rumsfeld. I find the entire process sickly. The Dems abdicated their roles so they could point fingers later. The Repubs circle the wagons every time and refuse to admit any mistakes -- even honest ones. Sometimes I think our government is a sham and the Repubs and Dems are just playing good cop / bad cop with the public.

21 Hey Brad, you can take your apologetics for terrorist scum and stick them up your liberal ass. You are a prime example of why liberals don't fucking deserve to live, and I pray for the day you decide to start your precious revolution that I keep reading about on bumper stickers (right next to the ones that say Free Mumia!), so I can watch you die by the hundreds. If you love your goddamn terrorists so much, why don't you just go to Iraq and join the jihad? I bet some Marine would love to meet you under such circumstances, as would I.

22 lol, IM sounds just like a terrorist.

23 As a "Brit" I do find Americans squabbling about their president rather a sign of weakness and decadence. Speaking as a former leftie, we all hated Nixon, but now he looks like the best leader you ever had, we all loathed Mrs Thatcher, but now I must admit she was necessary medicine, we all detested Reagan, but now it has to be acknowledged that he liberated hundreds of millions from Soviet tyrrany. What we will think of Bush in 20 years is as yet completely unknowable. This is one point where I cannot help but see current Bush-hating as a meme-generated gesture of liberal conformity. What you Americans fail to realise ( just as liberals in Europe also fail to realise ) is that you cannot judge the behaviour of your own people abroad by the same standards as at home. The writ of domestic legality and justice does not extend to a madhouse like Iraq and its crazy to expect Americans in such a place to act as though it does. Those "victims" in Abu Grhaib didnt get there by accident. Moreover, what happenned there is exactly what happens wherever one group of people are given unchecked power over others. It was firmly demonstrated in the US Navy research conducted by Alexander Zimbardo ( or was it Delgado, I forever confuse the two )at Stanford thirty years ago. When one bunch of student volunteers needed no prompting to torment and abuse another bunch of student volunteers within days of being given authority over them in a simulated prison. It soon became such a dangerous madhouse that the experiment had to be abruptly cut short. I bet there are prisons in the US where far worse happens than at Abhu Grhaib. The idea that Bush and Rumsfield had to have been directing it from afar is totally batty.

24 Just to clear a possible misunderstanding and to avoid a possible “killing in error”, there is still a poor spelling more conservative Brad in the Northwest who has nothing to do with the “potential target” Brad who just showed up today.

25 Taking these pictures and putting them together with all the other daily reports of violence, corruption, intimidation and general chaos, how could anyone every justify giving these people their own state?

26 If I saw my next door neighbor pulling a head out of a bag and getting some high 5Â’s from his kids I think I would build a very high wall between our properties.

27 All muslims are evil...it's the ones that pretend not to be that we should worry about more, as the little rats sneak into our societies and wreak havoc. It is so obvious that islam and civilized society have nothing in common. The savage head waving thing is part of our dark past but hey, we have moved on and these savages are still living that past.

28 The last traitor I recall was the one who outed an acting CIA agent. Oh, really? can you show me a URL of a story, where he was indicted for exposing a covert agent?

29 hmmm...which country was founded by genocidal maniacs offering cash rewards for settlers who brought in pieces of body parts of Indians? Decapitated heads were the most valuable, which would then be put on a stick in the town square for all to see??? Oh yeah...Amerikkka. I would be happy too if you brought me the head of a soldier who killed my friends and family members and shoots Palestinian children indiscriminately emptying entire clips of ammunition into their dead lifeless bodies. If you are proud to be an Amerikkkan, then accept your history (and current policy) of genocidal murder that makes this video clip look like Sesame Street.

30 I feel myself aquiring a highly unfavorable negative opinion of Mr. Sucks.

31 you can hate me now but I won't stop now the truth hurts huh Howie?

32 Mr Sucks you scumbag. I was making the point that this kind of behaviour is in the dark past but we have moved on. It's your lot that keep up the barbaric ways...let me think, stoning for adultery, hanging for being gay, chopping off hands for stealing and chopping off heads for being even remotely western. Then there's covering up your women and oppressing them.

33 In 1688, the French-Canadians began paying for every enemy scalp. This encouraged the emergence of groups trying to make a business out of scalping settlers. The British responded in 1693 by announcing that they would pay money for the scalps of Frenchmen and their Indian allies. As much as £100 was obtained for an important scalp. Blame Canada!

34 Yawn..

35 JS, The truth might hurt, but when are you goint to tell it? Haven't seen anything from you yet but rhetoric. You would be better served to peddle your bullshit over at Kos. They are stupid enough to believe it.

36 What Jawasucks forgot to mention is that the call for Indian body parts, and their display, FOLLOWED the Indians massacre of women and children settlers, who, if left alive, were carried off as slaves. Moreover, if there was genocide in America, it was one Indian tribe against others. They were far more brutal to enemy tribes than settlers ever were to them. They seem to have invented the practice of backboning, which is exactly what it sounds like. They cut to ribbons those they captured. They also invented the artful technique of pulling a guys balls off by tying a rope around them, from which was suspended a basket, and then pissing into the basket until the weight finished the job. More reality and fewer flights of rhetoric-wrapped fantasy please.

37 Hey IM, Where does reality intrude in your life? Where did I apologize for a terrorist? Where? And who the hell is Mumia? If you were smarter than wood, you'd notice that I support the war, that I think we should stay, and that I believe it's in our best interest to ensure a free, prosperous Iraq. Since you're not smarter than wood, it's impossible for you to understand the notion of supporting a war effort while wanting to hold the administration responsible for bungling the efforts accountable. And yes, I'd be happy to meet you or any Marine that served in Iraq. Perhaps you could explain to them why Rummy and Tricky Dicky sent them to war expecting "flowers to be thrown at their feet" and without properly armored vehicles (Google up Rummy's response to that issue -- there are more marines waiting to punch him in the face than you can count). And finally you fascist parrot, our soldiers are dying for the kind of freedom you, as a piece of wood, can't understand. Jesus loves you anyway, brad

38 He also forgets I'm part Cherokee. Well a small part but granfathers Grandmother Got married so she could stay off the trail of tears we still have her recipe book.

39 Dave, Turns out it's not illegal to reveal a CIA agent. It is bad form though -- don't you think? He's being tried for obstruction and lying about the outing of a CIA agent. Pretty fine line there.... but hey, at least he didn't cheat on his wife -- just his country. I'm tired of Bush apologists blinded by Fox News and the conservative editorial pages of this country. He's not god, he's not perfect, he's not even very bright. He's not all bad either. What he, and his followers, are is incabable of admitting a mistake. b

40 Jawa and all Jawa supporters....Suck! , You Sucked into lies about Israeli's are killing babies. The most organized army in the world and have to actually fight terorist Palanimals everyday. And digging up what the settlers did to the Indians 400 years ago is a sign of desperation.

41 Brad, your comment at 2:00 was a bit more conducive to discussion. I'll ignore your beef with others for now. Yes, some Dems and Reps find it hard to admit error. We do have a few honorable men and women though on both sides. I, for one, would welcome a thorough investigation. And when I say thorough, I mean thorough. I don't mean to go back and stop at January 20th, 2001 for we all know the world did not begin then. And the 9/11 Commission was a joke. As far as getting a bunch of things wrong - I've tried to put myself in the shoes of a President. I know it sounds ludicrous, but it gave me a little more insight. I read the Butler Report and many other intelligence assessments and I could see why Blair and Bush, who were responsible for the well being and security of hundreds of millions of souls, would make the decisions they did. Even if some think it was a mistake, if they just put armchair quarterbacking aside, I'm not convinced many others wouldn't have made the same decisions had they been in their shoes. It's no laughing matter or one to be bantered about lightly or even thought of within a political framework. Use not what we hear from the papers, or want to hear, but good information from solid sources without partisan influences. I did this to the best of my abilities because I could not in good conscience argue for or against without introspect and came to the conclusion that they made the only decision they could.

42 Brad, Come up with another nick. There is a Brad from Seattle who posts on this blog who is a decent guy. You're giving him a bad name. Try Bad Brad. I like the sound of that, and it better describes you. And I don't listen to Fox News. But it would be better than those neo-lib sites called ABC, CBS, NBC and worst of all, PBS. As for Bush making mistakes, hey, we all do, and I'm not covering for him or anyone else.

43 Actually it is illegal to expose an active CIA agent, but there are allegations she was mothballed as a CIA covert agent due to the fact she may have been exposed by Aldrich Ames before his arrest in 1994. I'm not sure if that will ever be verified, but there is a time period in which you can be prosecuted (I believe five years) for leaking the name of a covert agent.

44 Wrong, Brad-o Scooter Libby did not out a CIA agent, which is not a crime, and didn't out an undercover agent, which is a crime but since she wasn't an undercover agent, the law is inapplicable. He is being 'tried,' if you want to call it that (persecuted by someone lashing out in impotent frustration that he couldn't get anyone for doing anything, you know, actually ILLEGAL, would be a better name for it) for telling investigators that he didn't remember telling a journalist anything. Two years prior to being asked. Do you remember every little conversation you have? And, since you brought up your Hero, Clinton, and his wife-cheating ways, and compared them to cheating his country (which Libby didn't do, even if he were guilty of lying to investigators), how 'bout that Chinese donation to the Democrats? Pretty smooth how the Chinese were donating to Dem's, who were taking these bribe... Sorry, donations illegally, and suddenly, our policy towards China, a communist beligerent, changes to allow them all kinds of top secret information. Who cheated on his country, again?

45 Brad, don't waste the pixels trying to argue, because we all know what you are. You said: "Every time I hear someone cry about the atrocity of a beheading, I wonder if the same person cries about about the deaths in Abu Grahaib? Is beaing starved or beaten to death inside a body bag somehow more human than a beheading? It's all wrong. And it all needs to stop." Wah, wah, fucking wah. You're a typical bedwetting liberal who doesn't have the balls to admit that it's right to kill terrorists, and would rather appease them and let them have Iraq so they can start a new terrorist empire.

46 IM, You're the one who speaks in broad generalities. All liberal lie. All should be killed, blah, blah, blah. Again, I know facts don't matter, but I've stated publicly twice on this thread that I support the war. Repeat that last sentence a few times. I just find it odd that we call one form of execution barbaric and other civilized -- especially when all cultures have used on or onther form at one time. You assume all kinds of things about me without basis. It's nutbags like you who fuel wars -- take your posts to some terrorist board and your writings would seem right at home. You disagree that "it all needs to stop"? You're hatred has colored your world little man. I'm not your enemy. In fact we probably agree on most issues. If you could stop your assumptions and name calling long enough you might figure that out. Bad Brad

47 "This should serve as a reminder that beheading those deemed 'infidels' and 'apostates' has a long tradition in Islamic culture and in Palestine" why should a discrete instance serve to indicate anything monolithic about something as dynamic and complex as the way billions of people relate to each other under shared principles - religion. man, if you have hate in your heart, then let it out. don't mask it in reductive and poor logic. get over the "see they are evil" and just say you hate them, instead of finding reasons to justify your hate. be balls out about it, homie. your like a closet hater. boo....

48 Abu Grahib compared to beheadings? Brad, please provide us with the links of A.G. serial torture(ie starvations and beatings to death). Really, even on the most liberal sites I have yet to see it, but I am fascinated by these lefty slurs and where they come from.

49 I love it. Brad makes a great point comparing the response to Abu Ghraib, to the response to Islamic terrorists, and IM responds with "wah wah wah". As usual, he has no valid response because he knows he's beaten. Sure, we need to hold the Clinton Administration to higher standards, but the Bush Administration is just fine when it comes to invading defenseless nations, torturing innocent people, and sending our once respected nation into the hell that it's in. At best, this Administration is guilty of being inept and incompetent. At worst, they lied to us to gain support. Eventually it will proven so. The proof is there. I have no problem killing terrorists. I do have a problem with our country "importing" terrorists to Iraq to justify our being there. BTW, how's the search for Osama bin Laden going? You remember him? The man responsible for all of this? The hero of terrorists everywhere? Cue the excuse.... "but-but-but-CLINTON!"

50 I have problems with the statements that "all liberals should be killed" and "all liberals are traitors." Now, MANY liberals ARE traitors. Crazy Libbie Brad is blind to that (obviously) and suffers from BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome, again obviously). He believes every Dumbocrap talking point about the War and GW, guaranteed. However, for a moonbat, he seems fairly sane. And certainly is not a traitor, at least because he probably doesn't realize the positions of people like him are used by the Islamicists to further their efforts and that type of bullshit demoralizes out troops. Traitorousness requires intent. That's in stark contrast to that Jawa... Sucks scumbag. Now THAT is a traitor to the US and Western civilization as a whole. Although anyone stupid enough to believe the jihadist propaganda that the IDF "shoots Palestinian children indiscriminately emptying entire clips of ammunition into their dead lifeless bodies" might be too damn stupid to count as a traitor. (Hey Jawa...Sucks, you are aware that the famous clip of that kid getting shot by the IDF was staged by the Palestinians, right? Moron.) But even that scumbag doesn't deserve to be killed. At least unless he takes the next near step in his progression into lunacy, namely taking up arms against our guys or giving actual (i.e., financial or physical) aid to the terrorists...

51 CountryBeforeParty (gee, guess what party he's referring to) says: "I love it. Brad makes a great point comparing the response to Abu Ghraib, to the response to Islamic terrorists, and IM responds with 'wah wah wah'." That's because "wah wah wah" is all it deserves, you moron. Or are you (a) too damn stupid and/or (b) too consumed with BDS to realize the difference between (alegedly) abusing prisoners who were captured on a battlefield trying to kill our soldiers (bad) and killing civilians, including men, women, and children just going about their lives on busses, in pizzerias, at dance clubs, etc., as an intentional tactic to cause terror (a whole different level of downright evil)? The responses to those two incidents should by different because they are fundamentally different. Don't get that, though, do you? BTW, I'm betting on (c), both too stupid and too consumed with BDS...

52 MoonbatBane, I'm voting for (c) also. The guy seems pretty stupid to me, and he is definitely obsessed with Bush. They all are.

53 I believe the appropriate word for ..sucks is, Checkmate.

54 Hey, people, Brad's on our side! He wants us to win. The rest is just domestic politics, so lay off!

55 To Wyatt Junker, Wyatt, a quick search on Google for interrogation deaths will get you a list. A few more searches will get you more details. You asked for links, here are a few: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201941.html http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/12/13/afghan9837.htm http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/1406067.html Of course this takes the discussion a bit off topic. I'm not trying to compare us to them. I was merely commenting upon the notion that one culture barbarism is not another's. It seems as if the middle east is just 500 years behind. Countries in Asia executed people by having elephants step on their heads in the 1900's. The British used to hang people (as do many countries now) or have them drawn and quartered. We used to burn people at the steak, drown them, etc. The bible calls for death by stoning. Lethal injection, hanging, electrocution -- all end with the same result. I guess calling out this distinction makes me unworthy of living (according to IM), or makes me a Clinton Lover (huh?)... Folks like IM and dave have an agenda and turf to protect and attack anyone with honest questions about this administration. b

56 http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20266 You should really try balancing your argument with reality.

57 Brad, what you don't understand, coming in here cold, is that we have suffered a rash of attacks against us personally and any of our ideals by a number of people with, um, no brains. While a couple of us have seen through your attempts at discourse, you weren't exactly, how should I say, diplomatic? That's something I always take into consideration as a newbie anywhere. Starting off with a repertoire of Bush bashing wasn't exactly a wise move. Actually many of us have legitimate issues regarding some of his domestic policies like border control and caving to the democrats on social security, among other things. But this war? You started off with a couple of fallacies and even a bit of moral relativism right off the bat and you made some enemies real quick. Maybe you didn't intend it, but it sure sounded that way. I'm just saying.

58 This one is much better than your links. It has pictures too. http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444 I love this site. Number one because its almost as interactive as gay porn. And number two because I don't see torture here. What I do see is a barking dog. A human pyramid. A bloody guy on the ground. GI's playing you snooze-you-lose with prisoners. Prisoners with panties on their dome and a guy wearing a dunce cap. Please, point out the torture though. I've seen worse things on Fear Factor. And I also suppose that I shouldn't have rushed a frat. I broke the geneva convention and shit.

59 Wyatt Junker: that was a good piece you linked to.

60 There is nothing wrong with moslems. there are everything wrong with islam, the religion needs to be fixed instead of killing one billion people.

61 KhoraSUN, I sure can't argue with that statement. But until Islam is remade, the jihad will continue unabated.

62 The way I reckon this discussion is Rodney King, 1991. I think it parallels. And it also shows a thinly cut cross section of the turbo-lib frontal lobes under scurtiny. Now, Rodney King got his $2.9 mil of LA's finest tax money from organized lib guilt(the infamous white man's burden). He also summarily blew it up his nose in short order. But Rodney King shouldn't have gotten squat shit. Au contraire. He should have gotten more baton blows IMO. And here's how the media angles its line and slips the worm on the end of its hook. Its the same with Abu Grahib. First, they crop an image. They circumcize it. Reduce it if need be. They also (the embed journal whores) take the word of terrorist captive prisoners before and above our GIs. They assign nice little names to them in the reports for the NYT and the WaPo. Like Agent 07 or Agent 08 or Agent 09. Convenient. Then, like writing a soap opera, they inject their slant replete with a bunch of anonymous supporting actresses(prisoners), then the media 'wraps' all this in the formality of a 'military investigation' which they think will lend it an air of legitimacy. But here's the thing. Back to the comparison diversion. Rodney King was NOT abused. He was doing triple digits in his riceburner zipping through rezi areas, clipping lawn hedges with his front bumper and flooring it through the 'burbs. He was also 'lit up' more than a Whitesnake concert. The MSM didn't 'show' that. They also didn't 'show' the many voice commands that told Mr. King to GET DOWN which he ignored. And after several baton whacks, the MSM carefully edited out his attempt to get up again and again and(yes, I know) AGAIN. All they showed were the baton blows. And they showed it 24/7 for 60 days straight. Bush is a divider not a uniter, right uh, Pelosi? Check that, MSM. Anyway, sorry for the diversion, but Rodney King illuminates a bit of what's going on here with the continaul A.G. stories of 'torture'. Rodney King was not abused either. If anything he should have gotten a bigger can of whoop A. You know what I could have done with $2.9 million judgment pre-tax? And I don't even get high on crack, speed thru neighborhoods and defy police voice commands. Bottom line: Rodney King was not abused by the police. Also, the photos of Abu Gahrib do little to impress me other than to suggest that we also take down OWNED.COM on the you-snooze-you-lose tab feature for breaking the Geneva Convention.

63 Brad, The difference is the West was horrified and outraged by Abu Gahraib... you understand the difference between cheering in the streets and wholesale condemnation, of course, so can the specious argument. "All the killing needs to stop" is the standard lib blather that fails to recognize the difference between intrinsic evil and a solitary, unsanctioned evil act. None of the kids in my neighborhood were dancing in the streets when the AG photos hit the news...

64 DG -- you're right, the bulk of the west was horrified, and the military is prosecuting several soldiers for murder. That's a huge difference, it's wrong and we're willing to police ourselves. Much of the far right conservative movement played off the activities as "fraternity stunts" (limbaugh and O'Reilly) or as troops having "fun" (Hannity). And that's from the nation's most listened to talk radio show and the most popular news / editorial station ... you've also seen that here. If we're to win hearts and minds -- we have to be better. We tossed one to the insurgents there and gave them all the ammunition they needed to claim we're no different than Saddam. The actual approved interrogation techniques were published last week by an ex-CIA offer who had used them. Real soldiers like McCain have stated torture doesn't work and that if we're to expect our troops to be treated well, we have to reciprocate. Tell me, how did Cheney have the balls to attack McCain on that issue? The techniques are definitely not "frat stunts." I know some here will jump to the conclusion that I'm a pussy for opposing torture of suspected terrorists. There's a bigger issue here. First, I haven't seen anyone outside of Cheney saying torture actually works. It most often leads to bad intelligence. I want to "WIN" this war. All this B.S. from the Bushies about "few bad apples", then "we don't torture" (While Cheney was lobbying congress for just that right to be continued), to "it isn't really torture" to "well we just might need to" (cheney) is B.S. There are toops in jail now for executing Rumsfeld-approved interrogation techniques. Bullshit. I've said several times I support the war, but am dissapointed with how this administration planned and executed the task. I think they're more on point now -- but wow were there some whopper mistakes made. I did come into this discussion without tact -- but follow the threads. IM called for my death almost immediately. Dave quibbles on who's really a CIA agent and what's "acting" vs. just employed. I'm called a traitor immediately. Perhaps a sticker that says "I support the war more than you do!" on my car would help. I also tried to stay on issues. Wyatt Junker asked for links to any deaths resulting from our interrogations (How could you have missed that! Fox news?) and I provide them. Instead of saying "we were wrong" I get pointed to links about other people torturing "worse" than we were! And jokes about soldiers with panties on their head. Perhaps Wyatt should ask some of the Military personnel who are prosecuting some soldiers for murder. Do facts matter here? Sad day when we have to defend the USA as LESS of a torturer than others.... I'll stick to specific issues from now on. And not respond to trolls like IM and dave. Six months from now the truth will be out about how prewar intelligence was used -- perhaps well, perhaps not. The CIA and DIA are investigating now. Since Bush worked so hard to prevent the 9/11 commission from investigating how the intelligence was used, I suspect they had something to hide. Oh yeah, one prediction. The Bushies have been tossing around the "cut and run" phrase a lot lately. My take is they're accusing others of exactly what they're planning to do -- so that if they're accused of same it'll seem just partisan. We're out of there before Nov 2006 -- the Repubs won't stand to be unpopular for that long. The conservatives will blame the exit on the libbies for protesting -- but the truth will be different. They haven't cared about libbies since day one. Why care now?

65 Bad Brad, I started a point by point reply to your post, but dangit, it's after 10:00, Sportscenter is about to be on, and my hearts just not in it. I might try again tomorrow, but I might not, as I have gotten weary of all the fuss. I do have some advice for you. This is a blog where people of all beliefs come and argue. Sometimes the rhetoric gets hot and heavy, but you should not take it personal. That's something I've learned over the years, as I used to get real pissed by some things people said to me. But hey, it's a place to let off steam, and that is what people do here.

66 Shut down the Greek system now! http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5012154

67 All attempts at "discourse" are bullshit. The only realistic option in this war is the only one that ever existed in any war; total victory. I don't care if they have to skin the bastards alive and roll them in broken glass and Tabasco sauce in Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo. Whatever it takes to save the life of one more American soldier is okay by me, and if we have to nuke a few cities to make a point, and kill a few million people, well that's good too, because as Nagasaki and Hiroshima showed us, brute, crushing force is the only thing that works. If the goddamn wussy liberals had been in charge in 1945, we'd still be fighting the Japanese and Germans. Victory or defeat; there is no third option.

68 Here's an excerpt from http://www.markdanner.com/nyreview/062404_Road_to_Torture.htm ..................... "In October 2003, DETAINEE-07, reported alleged multiple incidents of physical abuse while in Abu Ghraib. DETAINEE-07 was a [military intelligence] hold and considered of potentially high value. He was interrogated on 8, 21 and 29 October; 4 and 23 November and 5 December. DETAINEE-07's claims of physical abuse (hitting) started on his first day of arrival. He was left naked in his cell for extended periods, cuffed in his cell in stressful positions ("High cuffed"), left with a bag over his head for extended periods, and denied bedding or blankets. DETAINEE-07 described being made to "bark like a dog, being forced to crawl on his stomach while MPs spit and urinated on him, and being struck causing unconsciousness." On another occasion DETAINEE-07 was forced to lie down while MPs jumped onto his back and legs. He was beaten with a broom and a chemical light was broken and poured over his body. DETAINEE-04 witnessed the abuse with the chem.-light. During this abuse a police stick was used to sodomize DETAINEE-07 and two female MPs were hitting him, throwing a ball at his penis, and taking photographs. This investigation surfaced no photographic evidence of the chemical light abuse or sodomy. DETAINEE-07 also alleged that CIVILIAN-17, MP Interpreter, Titan Corp., hit DETAINEE-07 once, cutting his ear to an extent that required stitches. He told SOLDIER-25, analyst, B/321 [Military Intelligence Brigade], about this hitting incident during an interrogation. SOLDIER-25 asked the MPs what had happened to the detainee's ear and was told he had fallen in his cell. SOLDIER-25 did notreport the detainee's abuse. SOLDIER-25 claimed the detainee's allegation was made in the presence of CIVILIAN-21, Analyst/Interrogator, CACI [Corporation], which CIVILIAN-21 denied hearing this report. Two photos taken at 2200 hours, 1 November 2003, depict a detainee with stitches in his ear; however, we could not confirm the photo was DETAINEE-07. Based on the details provided by the detainee and the close correlation to other known MP abuses, it is highly probable DETAINEE-07's allegations are true. SOLDIER-25 failed to report the detainee's allegation of abuse. His statements and available photographs do not point to direct [military intelligence] involvement. However, MI interest in this detainee, his placement in Tier 1A of the Hard Site, and initiation of the abuse once he arrived there, combine to create a circumstantial connection to MI (knowledge or implicit tasking of the MPs to "set conditions") which are difficult to ignore. MI should have been aware of what was being done to this detainee based on the frequency of interrogations and high interest in his intelligence value." ................................ end of excerpt. Now, if one were to suckle the MSM baby formula, these reports would appear scathing and yet for people that actually like to think first and emote second, all we REALLY get from these 'reports' are reports from detained anons, and hey... what motive would a Syrian terrorist have to lie? Right? Now, detainee number 7 is a great supporting actress. He's a detail man with a vivid imagination(actually it came right out of the Zarqawi handbook that was later found by our GIs that when you get caught by the infidels, WHINE). Remember, Zarqawi was a student of Vietnam. Zarq was good and spot on. He told his minions to bang your head onto the cell floor for Allah until a nice welt formed and then go cry to a reporter. Also remember that Zarqawi knows that the average blue state voter is a down-with-the-man lib bot who is just looking for an excuse to rail. He also knows that he can pry that clay-like demographic away from the more responsible, thoughtful pack with sugar-laden treats of 'conspiracies'. Remember, we are the land of the gullible and not only do we want to believe in the latest JFK theories, we have a compulsive NEED to, like the Scrabble hobbyist. Zarqawi knows American culture very well, the way she will react, what will cause her to lose her resolve etc. etc. We have found this freak's spiral ring Hello Kitty notebooks. I am not making this up. Now, back to the excerpt. Read the above carefully, not with your Oliver Stone hate-America-reading-glasses either. Read it with the vague language used, that to the site owner is apparently real 'ammo'. Its not. Here's why. Note, that the entire investigation, a MILITARY INVESTIGATION mind you, is a result of what detainee no. 7 has to say. Note also the obscure language that employs the diction of statistics. It is 'highly probable' that abuse occured. Detainee 07 'alleged' this and 'alleged' that. Well give this diva a bottle of Perrier and an Oscar. And also that the photo of D 07 is not confirmed as actually him nor is it described nor verified how he was injured except by D 7's own blather. I could go on and on with similar dipshitteries. The MSM doesn't ask the tough and very obvious questions. They didn't in Rodney King. They didn't with Hurry Cane Katrina. And they never did with A.G. either. Remember, the MSM wants 'the dirt' at any cost. As to the Baathist former 'general' and Saddam's personal assassin... Something that gets overlooked in the article is how he, when placed into a 'stress position' in front of his peers, naturally slipped into the role of 'tough guy'. Not to mention him being involved in real time insurgencies and uncooperative about the next roadside blast. He didn't claim ignorance either. He played mime with the interrogators and then channeled the typical Arab brouhaha card of quasi machismo that is organic to their pathetic mysogonist culture. Another more pressing and relevant question would be: Do terrorists deserve Geneva Convention shelter at all? No? Thank you. I have no problems with a Sunni getting GC shelter who tries to go man to man. But a defiant terrorist who splodeys up kids and old ladies that aren't in recognized war zones? The GC is silent. What do you want libs? To reinvent what's not even in the Geneva Convention? Or maybe a Syrian terrorist in Iraq should, like Harry Reid and Ted Kennedy have already suggested, be afforded not only the rights of the Geneva Convention but the very rights of the US Constitution and be read Miranda law and given an attorney on the spot. And then Susan Sarandon can play the nun and try to get 'em off fer good behavior and a guvnah's pardon(right after the conjugal). They should just be lucky they didn't get double tapped in the temple for trying to blow the legs off school children at daycare centers.

69 Fool me once. Pissed on Koran that got flushed down a toilet. Shame on you. Fool me twice. Abu Ghraib. Shame on me.

70 Improbulus Maximus -- WRONG AGAIN! "and if we have to nuke a few cities to make a point, and kill a few million people, well that's good too, because as Nagasaki and Hiroshima showed us, brute, crushing force is the only thing that works. If the goddamn wussy liberals had been in charge in 1945, we'd still be fighting the Japanese and Germans. Victory or defeat; there is no third option." Harry Truman was a Democrat and a LIBERAL! He attacked corporate corruption and cronyism. He ordered ordered atomic bombs dropped on cities devoted to war work. He presented to Congress a 21-point program, proposing the expansion of Social Security. He proposed a full-employment program, a permanent Fair Employment Practices Act, and public housing to end slums. The program, Truman wrote, "symbolizes for me my assumption of the office of President in my own right." It became known as the Fair Deal. IM, I hate to ruin your world view with actual facts. Guess that damn MSM didn't report the real "limbaugh-truth" about Harry Truman. Perhaps you could enlighten us how "nuking" Iraq's major cities would end the insurgency? Killing the citizens of the country would help? Oh, I get it, you know all the terrorists are in one particular city. Do you want to win this war? Or do you just want to kill all Muslims. We already know you want to kill anyone you deem liberal (with or without fact).

71 Wyatt, Your poem cracked me up! I've heard enough of fundamentalist Muslims crying about the "descration" of the Koran and insisting that someone go to jail or be killed because of it. Note to the Overly Religious: You don't get to kill people because they don't treat your 'magic book' nicely! A Quran in the toilet? So what. Get over it. A bible used as kindling? Same deal. Perhaps a blog "Where in the World is the Quran" with photos of it at topless bars, BBQ joints, out in the rain, under a christmas tree...would there be a jihad against the blog owner? You might like this: http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=490 b

72 For details on the approved interrogation techniques: http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866 We're not beheading anyone -- but beheading isn't torture (you're not going to get much information from someone once their head is separated from their body..) it's an execution.

73 He is more beautiful in death then they are in life. I cry for the sacrifices the Israelis make every day. Strength is the only answer to this provocation, so we must all support one another.

74 Agent Smith warns readers that Hamas is hazardous to your health.

75 Thanks Wyatt, there is no longer any need for me to reply to Bad Brad. You obviously know much more about the situation than me, and were much more eloquent in your response. Enough said.

76 Yes Jesusland Joe, Disecting one detainee's report and creating lots of doubt about it's veracity is all that is required. That makes it all okay and absolves you off any further inquiry. In fact all the reports of abuse are false, that's why the military is trying several solderier for murder. That's why they're investigating this. Heck only 27 detainees were killed, that's not too many. Of course they were all guilty. Who needs all the data when you're mind is made up?

77 I'm not sure who is Brad and who is Brad Brad, but anyway, to Brad Brad at 10:52am. It's not that I or anyone here seek to deny any and all charges. It's simply that all charges are not true simply by virtue of the stories being told. So I think maybe you're being too harsh in your assessment against Joe. As reasonable people, many of us look at individual cases on their merits, rather than just believing and repeating everything we hear. Somwhere there is truth between all allegations being true and all being false.

78 No, Bad Brad, the real problem is that you are so ready to believe anything these insurgents(terrorists) say. I would be the first to admit that some things that have happened in Iraq were and are wrong. But most of the allegations are just that, allegations, and with instuctions from their leadership to say and do just exactly that, then excuse me it I doubt the veracity of MOST if not all the allegations of these people.

79 Jesusland -- How does readng documents on the military's own internal investigations lead you to believe that I'm "ready to believe anything these insurgents say"? I never quoted any insurgents -- just US military officials reports on the issue. I figured that the US military would not accuse it's own people of these acts without serious evidence. Shit we're on the same side on these issues! I know there is a significant portion of the population that believes airing our own dirty laundry is unpatriotic and somehow helps the enemy -- I'm not one of them. We can prosecute a war with grim determination and effectiveness without allowing ourselves to skirt our own laws.

80 That's just it Brad Brad. You're quoting what you read in the military's own documentation. That's not the damn point! The point is that you're focusing/i> on the the documentation without giving the benefit of the doubt by thinking that simply because something is under investigation it implies guilt! Stop it! We don't even do that in county courts. Again, I will say that not all allegations are false. But then again they are not all true. Don't you get it? This isn't a civil trial. This is a war. This ain't the playground and it ain't office politics. It's far more grave than that. And your fixation on one small aspect detracts from the whole. When I think about all the guilty people who go free in our courts in the course of any given day because of our system which allows for one innocent person to escape persecution unjustly, I can't help but think that it's sad that in the fog of war we can't allow the same courtesy for our own against such a depraved foe.

81 Oyster -- Agree. You're right, they are only trying these individuals, they haven't been convicted. Your note made me realize that I was assuming guilt because I also assumed the military would be reluctant to prosecute it's own people -- especially considering the circumstances of war. Have you read Colby Buzzel's book "My War"? It vividly illustrates the "fog of war" you mention. His book is based upon a popular blog he started as a soldier: http://www.cbftw.blogspot.com. Thanks Oyster for pointing out my false assumption. Brad

82 Hey stupid libtard troll fucks, you can stop arguing, because nobody here buys your terrorist apologetics bullshit. You're so obsessed with Bush and your hatred for America and its armed forces that you're willing to excuse and forgive any atrocity by any terrorist, and to accept the deaths of as many innocent people as needed as long as it makes America looks bad, so fuck off. I don't care you think of me, just as I don't care what a garden slug thinks of me. To me, you are just a slimy little subhuman wad of crap that I wouldn't bother to scrape off my shoe. Call me names, pretend to beat me in argument, whatever, I don't care. It might mean something coming from someone with a brain, but you are so competely inconsequential that anything you say just doesn't matter. You are the dung beetles of humanity, rolling around little balls of shit, thinking you've struck gold. You would be funny if you weren't so pathetic, and if reality weren't so grim. People are dying every day and all you can think about is how to excuse the savages who use car bombs to murder children and soldiers, while blaming those who are trying to stop them. You are beneath contempt, and I wouldn't piss on one of you if you were on fire, so fuck off.

83 I have to agree with IM. According to the blue cities, America can do no right and no good is ever afforded nor acredited to her. Look at the initial post of this blog. It wasn't about America. It was about a very sick culture who glories in serial death. And it only took how many posts to pull out the Abu Ghraib card from a lib's assahewl? And a lib has so many international injustices/crimes to choose from; the way Russia brutally expunged Chechynan 'insurgents' or China's gross and immoral slavery of Tibet and its current dick throb for Tawain, or Syria or Lebanon for that matter, the way they incite and instigate terror across the globe, or Iran's current nuke building hard on, or Mugabe or in the Sudan, the way the Janjaweed runs rape rooms and institutionalizes child slavery. I could go on and indeed I should, because the libs really don't give a shit. The only thing a lib cares about are two words. Abu Ghraib. Oh yeah, I forgot. Three words. Let's toss in Halliburton as the biscuit in the middle. You see, moral relativism, to the turbo-fired-up-lib is all that matters. There is no concrete good. There is no concrete evil. These are merely mythologies that your Sunday School teacher used to keep you in line. America could do 99% right. And the lib would grab ahold of the 1% wrong and shake it like a baby rattle, screaming and bashing it against the bars of their crib. Libs are emotionally incarcerated, psychologically they are locked in when the biological bumps begin to develop, bulge and drop in their privates. They are in a chronic state of peer pressure and just as a teen's room is pasted with Marilyn Manson posters, their brains are coated with romantic disenfranchisment. They enjoy chewing this bone, even if the balls attached to the bone are about to spahlooge. Libs, the turbo-charged-Kucinich variety, get real uncomfortable with right and wrong. Their universe doesn't comprehend nor have a place for an America that acts as a stabilizing global force. The arrested nature of the lib demands a kind of working down-with-the-man, mindless union driven trope. They require, they NEED a psychological grid where the underdog gets freebies under the table and the 'superpower' acts as a kind of polarizing father figure. It is nothing short of collectivized transference from the bedwetting phase that hasn't broken free. No need to mention how France, Germany, Russia and China were all major players against the Iraq invasion, the only reason being selfish gain, barrels of oil and weapons smuggling. No. Its not relevant. Chris Matthews, John Stewart, Aaron Brown - these fuck monkeys won't mention it twice let alone once. No. Only big bad 'Merica. A war for oil, greed an imperialism. You got that lib? Now go pay your $10 movie fee to watch George Clooney's Syriana. Its a rite of passage, you know like Moore's shitty movies. And Clooney even did the trite thing that garners shiny awards and shit. He gained 40 pounds. In the actors' world, that means 'he's serious'. HAHAHA. What a sick dick. And he also mentioned 'Oil'. He's a fukkin shoe in. Give the man a Pulitzer and pull his finger. The lib wants America to go down like Paris Hilton on Aaron Carter. Its just a rock concert to them. And besides, America can take it, right? She's a superpower. Fuck her.

84 IM -- you're responses have no connection to my posts. I just agreed with Oyster and I get creamed by you again. You've assumed much about me without any data nor with any real discourse. When you're completely off base and wrong (comments about liberals and WWII) you don't respond. You resort to name calling and attacks. You call me an idiot, threaten my . To me, people like you are the real danger to a democratic America. You're so certain you're right that you're willing to judge without fact. To condemn without listening. You're completely unwilling to consider facts that conflict with your world view. Wyatt -- yes we libtards condemn the atrocities committed by nutbag Islamacists, as does most of the world. We're just willing to insist that we don't commit similar crimes. We have to be better than them. Integrity means facing and fixing your own faults no matter the situation. Read IM's comments. He's adovcated killing millions, including other Americans who disagree with him. Yet he can't put together a factual argument in support of any of his positions. And when faced with facts he can't refute he just attacks the messenger. IM -- you don't know me. You don't know my views on a multitude of issues. Ask me a question without calling me a traitor and I'll answer. You know I support the war. I think we need more troops on the ground. I think we should RAISE TAXES or at least postpone further cuts to pay for this war and get our troops the very best -- we've missed the notion of public sacrifice in the support of a war. I think Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Cheney messed up huge (ChickenHawsk all!) and didn't listen to experienced military personnel (Powell). Their errors and Rumsfeld's arrogance have cost our troops in the field. People who dance at the sight of a severed head sicken me. People who suggest we nuke a few million people are no better. No sense talking to you. Facts don't matter to you. As long as you can paint someone an enemy you'll be happy. Go read Orwell's 1984 -- you're living it dude. Oyster -- best to you dude.

85 Agent Jones thinks Bad Brad is a patriot.

86 So.... 1. Where is this video shot. 2. What proves it's original and not just a photoshop fake. 3. Where does it say filmed in Gaza. 4. What faction does the man belong to... with all that equipment.

87 Hey IM! When you were busy hating Clinton, did you hate America? No? So it's possible to disagree with an administration's policies / leadership without hating the country? You're a troll. No one could actually be as stupid and hateful as you are. You're just like one of those little yip-yap dogs that barks and snarls at everything with no thought or reason -- and a brain the size of a golf ball. Keep barking you brainless, rabid little toy poole.

88 Does this worry anyone else: http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/002669.html#002669 They remind me of the kids in the middle east schools...

89 Brad Brad, uh, that would be "chick", but thanks. ;-)

90 Actually, "God's Interns" doesn't worry me. It's the exploititive aspect of it that sould be addressed. Most of those participating will snap out of it. At least it's peaceful, indoors and beats the hell out of being subjected to ugly, naked people marching down the street with Bush=Hitler signs, inflated scrotums and shouting invectives. But the intern thing will be portrayed as more evil and insidious by the media. One commenter on that site said: "How on earth did America get to this stage? I'm British and after watching that I can't honestly tell wether it was piece on Washington 'interns' or interns in Tehran. Obviously the lack of beards and the speaking of english gave it away slightly " I'm reminded of the "log in one's own eye" adage. Yeesh.

91 lets look at the facts america was and is anchored on domination. it started with indians who were fooled by thinking that the new settlers were coming in peace through freedom of religion, this then lead to a movement of merchants and then protection of their merchantys by goverment millitary force which resulted in the strong arm take over of indian land. oh yeah let's not forget that they shackeled africans to work the stolen land. and called it humane. be real american is a big bully trying to take what it can but boy would it be a sad day when other super powers decided to figth back. hate is hate and it may take diffrent forms but it has only one objective self gradification.