March 08, 2005
Images of Sgrena's Car (Updated-now fortified with essential Sgrena lies!)
UPDATE: Clearer images via AP (hat tip: House of Wheels)
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UPDATE: Welcome minions of Glenn Reynolds, Reason and NRO's The Corner (thank you Jonah!). Please, for the love of all that is good and holy, Blogroll The Jawa Report! and come back often for all your commie-propagandist fisking needs.
UPDATE 3/09: A new post is up documenting Giuliana Sgrena's Lies, Inconsistencies, and Treason.
Italian television station Tg1 is running images of a car purported to be the one used by Giuliana Sgrena. If this is the car then it would contradict earlier reports that Sgrena's rescuers had used a truck. If accurate, the condition of the car would also directly contradict the story told by Sgrena in which she claimed 300-400 bullets were fired, one of which hit Italian secret-service agent Nicola Calipari. Earlier reports of what was purported to be Sgrena's get away car proved inaccurate.
UPDATE: I am inserting these AP photos because they are much clearer. I found them via House of Wheels who in turn got them from Charles Johnson. Click for bigger pictures
More...
Only a single bullet hole can be seen in the image below, taken from Italy's Left-Wing paper LaRepubblica.
The Google translation of the captions that go with these photos is not clear. They may claim to show more bullet holes where indicated, but if they do then my eyes fail me. Perhaps the tire shot, but the rest don't seem to show any real damage.
Update: Thanks to reader John gives us this translation of the caption that accompanies each photo:
"The car in which Giuliana Sgrena and Nicholas Calipari travelled with American bullet holes. The images were transmitted from Tg1."
big shout out to Eddie for tipping me on this.
UPDATE: Italian Foreign Minister's version of the story:
"The car was travelling at a speed that couldn't have been more than 40kph," Fini said. He said that a light was flashed at the car after a curve and that the gunfire -- lasting 10 or 15 seconds -- started immediately afterward, disputing US military claims that several attempts were made to stop the car.Sgrena's BBC version of the story:
We were on our way to the airport when the tanks started to strike against us and he tried to cover me and he was shot. He died and, me, I was safe but he was dead.Another Sgrena version of the story from Il Manifesto:
The Americans shone a flashlight at the car and then fired between 300 and 400 bullets at if from an armoured vehicle.And another Sgrena version of the story, from an earlier paragraph:
They told me that we were less than a kilometer away...when...I only remember fire. At that point, a rain of fire and bullets hit us, shutting up forever the cheerful voices of a few minutes earlierLook at the pictures then you tell me which seems more likely: one of the many different versions of the story Sgrena is telling or the US version of the story:
The 3rd ID issued a press statement last week saying the car was racing toward the checkpoint when they signaled it to stop, fired warning shots and finally shot the engine block of the car. The shots killed one and wounded two, including the journalist.Or this report from the US perspective:
The Army's 3rd Infantry Division, which last week resumed command of Baghdad operations after participating in the 2003 invasion, said the soldiers had warned the approaching car repeatedly before opening fire.Of course, we now know they missed, but it is a far-cry fom a deliberate 'assassination' or 'ambush' as Sgrena puts it.According to the division, the patrol attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car."
IMPORTANT UPDATE: Opinion Bug finds this new nugget from ABC News. Dayam, that's why were Sgrena central, baby!!:
senior U.S. military official tells ABC News he believes the investigation into the fatal shooting of an Italian intelligence officer by U.S. troops in Iraq will ultimately prove the officerÂ’s car was traveling in excess of 100 mph.
Scared Monkeys offers the following important analysis:
1. The US Soldiers are brilliant marksmen by placing multiple bullets through the same hole.Looks like the crack staff of Six Meat Buffet find the, er, real car impounded down at Cooter's place until Sgrena pays a fine to Hazard County.2. The US soldiers are terrible marksmen, firing 300-400 rounds at the automobile and missing a huge percentage of them.
3. She is a lying #$%#$% communist, who has an ax to grind against the US and its Iraqi strategy and is using this to further her own aims.
Evil White Guy has a good compare and contrast picture between Sgrena's car and Bonnie and Clyde's.
UPDATE: Pirate's Cove "...pictures from La Repubblica of the car that Giuliana Sgrena was riding in as the guns and tanks and A-10's and outer space death rays attacked her, all ordered personally by President Bush, of course." ha!
Another UPDATE: Since I don't very much feel like doing another Sgrena post tonight, I'll just insert this from a translation from Zacth Ei (via LGF), did for him of a Dutch paper. If you want the full background of Sgrena's duplicity, her lies, blood libel, and further evidence that she was a first rate propagandist for her terrorist captors see my post "Giuliana Sgrena's Blood Libel Against the US". Among other things, Sgrena accuses the US (long-before her capture) of dropping napalm on civilians, of massacres, of child torture, and even of using nuclear weapons in Iraq. You heard me, that was not a typo, nuclear weapons! Ok, Zach describes the journalist writing this article as a man who used to work for a Communist paper, so we'll set aside the obvious objection that he was biased against Sgrena for political reasons:
Be careful not to get kidnapped,' I told the female Italian journalist sitting next to me in the small plane that was headed for Baghdad. 'Oh no,' she said. 'That won't happen. We are siding with the oppressed Iraqi people. No Iraqi would kidnap us....Damn it feels good to be a gangsta!'The Americans are the biggest enemies of mankind,' the three women behind me had told me, for Sgrena travelled to Iraq with two Italian colleagues who hated the Americans as well...
'You don't understand the situation. We are anti-imperialists, anti-capitalists, communists,' they said. The Iraqis only kidnap American sympathizers, the enemies of the Americans have nothing to fear.
---Sgrena would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for those meddling bloggers!
---heh, no one does funny quite like Jeff Goldstien.
UPDATE 3/09: A new post is up documenting Giuliana Sgrena's Lies, Inconsistencies, and Treason.
--Sobek Pundit finds this, ahem, photo correction released by the AP. Looks like Sgrena's version of events is right on.
--Ken Wheaton finds the inevitable Sgrena-Star Wars connection!
UPDATE: Ok, I promise no more updates. Confederate Yankee does a bang-up job analyzing the rate of fire of various weapons in use in Iraq (and various other CSI type stuff) and comes up with the *shocking* conclusion that Sgrena is a *liar*.
Also on the trail of that lying commie propagandist: MH King, OpiniPundit, LGF, James Joyner, Michelle Malkin, Scared Monkeys, Way Off Bass, In the Bullpen, Kevin Aylward, Evil White Guy, Now You Know, Myopic Zeal, Captain Ed, Slant Point, Armageddon Project, Red State Rant, The American Mind, Slings and Arrows, Coyote Blog, Jacob's Room, Joust the Facts, SondraK.....wow, I sort of lost track after here. Just look down the trackback list. If you tried to trackback and got an error, please e-mail me.
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1
This is getting ridiculous.
By which I mean "even more ridiculous."
And deliciously so, I should add.
Posted by: ccwbass at March 08, 2005 03:15 PM (AZ2pN)
2
Mmmm.... Only one hit on the windshield out of 400. And it failed to penetrate. Do US armored vehicules fire Nerf balls or something?
Oh, and what was that super information that Sgrena had that was worth killing for? Surely, she has revealed it by now.
Posted by: Avary at March 08, 2005 03:50 PM (UH+LW)
3
As a professional forensic scientist, I can say that if those pictures are the car in question, then (in my professional opinion), Sgrena is a lying douche.
Posted by: Wine-aholic at March 08, 2005 03:52 PM (Wsn+K)
4
Way to go detective, because nothing represents the final, undeniable truth like US military testimony. By this logic, we're winning the war in Iraq! Case closed I guess, tell the boys down at the crime lab I'm taking off early today.
Posted by: Mike at March 08, 2005 04:23 PM (ELnLC)
5
Call me "odd" but given the testimony of a US soldier vs. that of a known lying propagandist, I'll take that of the soldier.
Of course, soldiers have lied before, but as a whole I'd say they are a pretty honest bunch. On the other hand Sgrena is a liar with an agenda.
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at March 08, 2005 04:27 PM (JQjhA)
6
...tell the boys down at the crime lab I'm taking off early today.
Why do I get the feeling they might not notice otherwise? ;-p
Posted by: McGehee at March 08, 2005 05:04 PM (S504z)
7
"They may claim to show more bullet holes where indicated, but if they do then my eyes fail me. Perhaps the tire shot, but the rest don't seem to show any real damage" ---
I think the arrows in photos 3 and 4 are meant to indicate that the driver's side window was "taken out" by a round. -- ? Causing a "rain" of glass pellets that comrade-girl-reporter mistook for spent rounds?
Posted by: Ralph at March 08, 2005 05:48 PM (V1vFK)
8
Duh. If the U.S. soldiers say they shot into the car's engine block, then where in the above photos are signs or evidence that the front, grill, hood or front fenders received bullets being "fired into the engine block?"
Posted by: Sherlock at March 08, 2005 05:56 PM (4sdv6)
9
Where exactly the car was exactly hit cannot be clearly determined from this limited set of photos. What is clear is that it was definitely not subject to a "hail" of fire. Surprisingly little damage.
Posted by: Robin Roberts at March 08, 2005 06:13 PM (xauGB)
10
hi all.. well i'm from italy and i consider absolutely groundless sgrena's reconstruction.. i'm very sorry that a good secret agent died to save her.. i also think that calipari's death was a tragic accident.. nevertheless, i think that if you make a mistake - although unintentionally - you have to pay for this mistake, specially if another man dies.. so i hope that the soldier(s) who shot him will be expelled with shame from us army, and sentenced for manslaughter (culpable homicide).
ciao,
caesar
Posted by: caesar at March 08, 2005 06:55 PM (fvraj)
11
It's too bad that the one picture that shows the front of the car is partially obscured. I'm inclined to believe the soldiers, but that just makes me think that this too may not be the right car. Where is the damage to the front end? I can't see any, but maybe that's just the distance and picture quality. If that is in fact the car, it would seem that the fire was very controlled, with just one bullet penetrating the windshield. It's just unfortunate where that one bullet went. (And I in that I mean I wish it hadn't killed anyone, despite the inevitable response here that it should have killed the journalist. Oh, excuse me, I mean the filthy commie. Forgot I was in loonyland.)
Posted by: mantis at March 08, 2005 07:18 PM (zmcHh)
12
Charles Johnson links to an article by a Dutch journalist who explains what an idiot Sgrena is.
Posted by: Robin Roberts at March 08, 2005 07:45 PM (xauGB)
13
When the press starts regurgitating pictures of small pick-ups, as they were supposed to have been driving, maybe we'll at least see a vehicle that *might* be the one they were in.
Meanwhile, the variety of vehicles the AP has available in settings with soldiers and desert-ish backgrounds is truly astounding.
Posted by: Jonathan at March 08, 2005 09:07 PM (7D30s)
14
The report by La Repubblica (repubblica.it) is that the rear window was smashed to pieces, two bullet holes in the front windshield, and all sides windows missing.
(The Toyota was rented early Friday morning, with Arab license plates.)
The car will be shipped to Rome, where it will undergo forensic testing by the Italian authorities.
Both Sgrena and the surviving agent were interviewed by Italian intelligence, and two public ministers. The Italian government, headed by conservative Berlusconi, with neo-fascists in his ruling coalition, is backing Sgrena's story (which is the same as the agent's). Gianfranco Fini, the foreign minister, is with Alleanza Nazionale - the neo-fascist party.
You may call Ms. Sgrena a "commie witch", but a conservative government, which backs Bush's occupation of Iraq, sent intelligence agents to negotiate her release. Thousands and thousands of people demonstrated in the streets of Rome for her release. Italian soccer players were wearing jerseys with the slogan "free Giuliana" during the games. She is not regarded as a "commie witch" by the great majority of the Italian public.
Posted by: Anna at March 08, 2005 09:19 PM (FDfPe)
15
Anna,
That is because the media has portrayed her a sympathetic figure. When the truth comes out, the story will be buried so deep that it will never see the light of day.
Posted by: Tom at March 08, 2005 09:59 PM (jLjqz)
16
Anna, which of the many stories that she's told did she tell the govt?
Posted by: Robin Roberts at March 08, 2005 10:32 PM (xauGB)
17
To my eye there are at least 5 bullet holes in the windscreen. One half way up the pillar, one a few inches to the left of that one, the large circled bullet hole, then two to the lower right. Notice we only see the driver's side, and no closeup pictures of the passenger side of the car where Sgrena presumably was sitting. You guys should get off whatever you are on, it isn't doing you any good. There have been too many of these incidents for it not to be noticed. This is not a fog of war thing, it is a pattern and seems to indicate the need for training, and better processes at check points. She isn't a communist, and if you think that, and use it as a reason for shooting at her and killing her companion, then you will go to hell in a handbasket, mate, and you will lose the war.
Posted by: kevin brewer at March 08, 2005 11:48 PM (oScXq)
18
Tom,
Giuliana Sgrena is a published, and recognized journalist in Italy. The public is aware of who she is by her writings.
Robin,
Ms. Sgrena's account of the events leading up to the shooting has been corroborated by the surviving intelligence agent who was in the car with her. Their testimony is the basis for Mr. Fini's presentation today.
Please don't forget that Mr. Calipari, and the other agent, who the Italian authorities do not want to name for fear of compromising his intelligence position, were in contact with authorities in Rome and the Italian embassy in Baghdad by means of cel and satellite phones. In fact, Rome heard the shots fired by the Americans because they were in conversation with one of the agents.
Several calls were made during the trip to the airport. The Italian authorities will be very interested in retrieving the telephones that the soldiers took after the shooting.
Posted by: Anna at March 09, 2005 01:06 AM (FDfPe)
19
Thanks for the pictures - every little helps in trying to understand what's going on.
BUT - and it't a BIG but... Nicola Calipari is dead. Let me repeat that, in case you have already forgotten: a senior military intelligence agent is dead. He died. A bullet to the head killed him. For more, see Monty Python's dead parrot sketch.
Sgrena has real wounds.
Two other intelligence agents in the car are wounded.
So let's sum that up. Every person who was in that car was hit by bullets or shrapnel. One of them was killed. Should I say that again for you S...L...O...W...L...Y...?
How the hell should Giuliana Sgrena know how many bullets hit the car? She'd just been released after a month of captivity being held by hostage takers. The man who had secured her release had just died on top of her.
You've got such an active imagination, surely - just for a moment - you can imagine what that would feel like and what that would do to your judgement. Can't you?
The US military account is that they fired warning shots, then they fired at the vehicle. Sgrena could easily have heard what she believed, and may well have been, several hundred rounds. But only a small number of them needed to hit the car and its occupants to kill or wound every single person in the car.
And...wait a moment...I just remembered...almost forgot...every single person in that car was hit...one killed... the others wounded.
And...wait a moment... when you start reading the Italian press, you find that one of the wounded intelligence agents backs up Sgrena's account that there was no check point, they were fired on by what appeared to be a patrol, and he insists they were travelling at no more than 40 kmh - 30 mph.
Well, Italian military intelligence agents must all be communists, musn't they? Otherwise they wouldn't ever dream of contradicting US military accounts as reported by those oh-so-competent, oh-so-fair newspapers that you read.
I don't claim to know what exactly happened that night, because we don't have all the facts. But by your very own words - and the words of your fellow travellers - you all knew precisely what had happened, within hours of it actually happening.
You clearly have no interest whatsoever of finding out the truth. You simply want to latch on to anything that might possibly back up what you had already decided.
How sad.
Posted by: cat at March 09, 2005 01:53 AM (pq+mH)
20
The ransom alone should make this a act of war. If they knew where and when this was happening they should have taken out kidnappers before the pay day. Oh , and yes she is a commie witch. Should I say that SLOWLY !!!!!
Posted by: Deetes at March 09, 2005 03:51 AM (Y0L5X)
21
This is so fucking silly - America sux!
Posted by: Richard Ben Jehuda at March 09, 2005 06:09 AM (FlD31)
22
Every one in the car was hit?
How about the driver? According to Sgrena, he was:
1. Well enough to get out of the car after the shooting and scream at the Americans "We're Italian! We're Italian!"
or
2. Screamed when the shooting started from inside the car "Italian! Italian!"
Also,the truth here is as plain as a day on the Italian Riviera...an anti-American communist propagandist has changed her story at least three times each time implicating the American military using slanderous and libelous accusations.
She's using the death of a brave Italian Secret Servie agent, Nicola Cabrini, to further her political agenda and feed her publicity hungry ego.
Shameful!
Posted by: superhawk at March 09, 2005 06:15 AM (+7VNs)
23
If we wanted her dead she would be dead. This story has more holes than the car.
Posted by: donjuan at March 09, 2005 06:23 AM (PJ4Iq)
24
Did anyone really think what this Communist Scribbler said was actually true? Oh.... I forgot, all the Leftist Howard Dean loving, bean pie eating, weeeeed smoking moonbats believed every lie that spewed from her dank mounth.
Posted by: Filthy Allah at March 09, 2005 07:50 AM (yBHNA)
25
Laurence Simon offers a proposed additional question for the driverÂ’s licensing exam in Italy:
You are approaching a checkpoint where there are armed troops waving flashlights and firing warning shots over your vehicle. You:
a) Stop
b) Speed up
c) Immediately make a U-turn and head for the nearest cafe for expresso and gelato
d) Crap your pants
to which I add:
e) Scream and waive like an Arab terrorist to further get the AmericansÂ’ attention
f) Proceed upwind from checkpoint, throw up hands to surrender and wait for U.S. troops to pass out
g) Surrender to anyone on road prior to hitting checkpoint, explaining that Italy has a fine tradition of surrendering in modern times commencing with Ethiopia in 1896
h) Play “My Way” by Frank Sinatra on car horn as you approach
i) Put on sunglasses to cut down the glare from the flashlights
Â…..you are free to add to the list
Posted by: bsp at March 09, 2005 07:51 AM (ncOV1)
26
That's the car she was kidnapped in, you liars. Not the one she drove to the airport. You don't have proper sources for you images. Right wingers are so pathetic.
Posted by: the truth at March 09, 2005 09:11 AM (0AfhX)
27
I'm sure you Left Wing whiners will provide the correct photos, right?
I'd like to see what 300-400 rounds from a US tank does to a speeding car in a war zone.
Posted by: donjuan at March 09, 2005 09:28 AM (PJ4Iq)
28
"the truth", nope. You are days behind. The AP had published photos of unrelated cars before. However, these photos come from Italian RAI TG1 television. It is they who state that this is the car that was shot by US forces.
Anna, Sgrena has been quoted telling several contradictory stories. Which one was "corroborated"? Which one is she telling now?
Posted by: Robin Roberts at March 09, 2005 09:29 AM (xauGB)
29
the truth is, you wouldnt know it if it slapped your mother in the head.
and richard,... the only thing that "sux" is your mother.
and kevin, please wake up, she has said she is a communist herself!!!! right from her own mouth!!!!
Posted by: rumcrook at March 09, 2005 09:32 AM (Q9W6F)
30
hmmm....so what is the significance of bullet holes in the car she was kidnapped in then "the truth"? Why do we see pictures with bullet holes circled being circulated now? Did the Italian ransom pay for the car too? Seems to me a car that was used over a month ago to kidnap her could have picked a few bullet holes up in Iraq without the US military having fired them...I mean...could it be shrapnel from yet another terrorist blowing themselves up and killing fellow civilian countrymen to protest the brutality of the US military??
Posted by: the truth 2 at March 09, 2005 09:32 AM (ocOr3)
31
Chicken-hawks are so blinded by the smell of defeat that they are no longer able to read their own language.
Where did Sgrena say that 300 bullets actually hit the car she was in? She said that 300-400 bullets were shot and that a rain of fire and bullets hit them. This is not inconsistent with the report from the U.S. Army: warning shots fired in front of the vehicle. A machine gun will easily fire well in excess of 500 bullets per minute. In 15s as reported, a single machine gun could have shot 200 bullets. Second, three of four drops of water on a car would definitely make rain. Learn to read.
Let's have a look the report from the U.S army: arm waving, flash-lights, then warning shots in front of the car, finally shooting at the engine block. Either this report is wrong or the U.S. soldiers need a better training. If there was warning leaving sufficient time for the driver to react, how come the car did not stop? Why would a driver that had successfully passed several check-points take the risk of not stopping for yet another check-point?
More likely the warnings were not done properly. Add to that: if they fired only at the engine block and one occupant was killed and another wounded, then they need to go back to shooting range for requalification.
"members of the most highly trained and disciplined military organization in the world" My ass!
Let's put some chicken-hawks inside a car and fire a few bullets at them, killing one and
wounding another. And, after the shit in his pants has been cleaned, let's hear if the wounded one is able to report exactly how many bullets were fired and where they were fired. More likely, he will sob and weep "Mummy!" as sure as he is a right-wing pussy.
Posted by: Sous-Commandant Marco at March 09, 2005 11:15 AM (opVBv)
32
Folks, I think all sides are grasping at conclusions without evidence.
Did the US intentionally try to kill the reporter? Duh... I can't believe anyone would buy that.
Has the reporter offered several explanations of what happened. Obviously she has.
Are these explanations motivated by a strong disdain for America and especially it's invasion of Iraq? That would seem very likely.
But there's a bit of irony on both sides here. America supporters, among who I consider myself one if not quite as aggresive as others, seem to believe the reporter and her paper are totally untrustworthy. Yet where did these pictures come from? The Italian press.
We have no idea if this is the car at all. And idle speculation on all sides isn't helping. Whether it be some Olivers Stone like conspiracy theories, or others immediate exoneration of the soldiers involved.
It seems likely that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
So here's my humble suggestion. Forget about what Sgrena's claims assuming you can settle on one of them. Wait for the results of the investigation which I assume will become a joint US/Italian investigation in the end.
Italy is the 3rd largest member of the Coalition. We really do need their support for ideological reasons if nothing else.
Trashing them at this point serves no purpose. Calm down, wait for the facts and see where they lead.
Posted by: davebo at March 09, 2005 11:15 AM (vdjgh)
33
I dont think all italian papers are completely untrustworthy, just the communist ones.
Posted by: rumcrook at March 09, 2005 11:21 AM (Q9W6F)
34
Jesus, you people are pathetic...
Posted by: Bei at March 09, 2005 11:22 AM (Tv4/d)
35
Who is this "the truth" person???
For a *series* of photos of the Sgrena car go to:
http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Politica/2005/03_Marzo/08/calipari.shtml
This is the "Corriere della Sera", basically the "newspaper of record" (i.e., the biggest and not particularly right- or left-wing by Italian measure).
the article ends with a quote from the main TV news channel (RAI1.. state-run, and thus, in theory, biased, however, here they clearly refute the 300-bullet theory):
«Chi ha potuto vedere altre immagini - ha precisato il Tg1 - ha detto che l'auto è stata colpita da una dozzina di colpi di cui è rimasta traccia sulla tappezzeria all'interno dell' auto. Si nota ancora che lo pneumatico anteriore sinistro è a terra, evidentemente colpito».
Translation: "Who was able to look at other photos said that the auto was hit by a dozen or so shots of which there remain signs on the car's interior. You can see that front left tire is flat, evidently hit."
Posted by: ladelfina at March 09, 2005 11:28 AM (aHWFT)
36
I fully appreciate the force dilemma faced by our troops in light of the frequent car bombings. Nonetheless, we have a deeply regretable and damaging friendly fire incident to investigate.
It is apparent that Guilliana was sympathetic to the terrorists from the onset and has made some reckless accusations (I mean does anyone really believe that this middle aged woman was targeted for assassination by a US patrol, AND THEY FAILED TO KILL HER! Did they run out of bullets?), but that does not alleviate our duties to show respect to an allied Nation.
Please tone down the rhetoric and insults - this woman discredits herself with the absurdity of her claims - but you play into the prejudices of her audience when we become uncivil in rebuttal.
To the people defending her in the forum, I would ask to bear in mind that it is not her account of facts (# of shots, speed of the car, etc.) that is provoking such outrage. I think we can all agreed that mistakes could have been made, and we shouldn't jump too far ahead of the investigation.The outrage is her assertion that the US Military was trying to kill her in particular.
Oh, and Anna. Why would the Italian authorities be "very interested" in retrieving the telephones the US army alledgely took from them? Do these phones record their conversations?
Posted by: JP at March 09, 2005 11:28 AM (11h7j)
37
I agree with JP totally. While this particular woman is hardly credible and her version(s) of what happened full of holes and bias against the US military. The central tenent to focus on is that a strong US ally and critical member of the coalition has legitimate concerns about how and why this happened. Our responsibility is to have a full accounting of what happened and to publicly and fully cooperate with the Italian government in doing so. Ultimately this woman's claim will be discredited as is her world view and political ideology. But an employee of the Italian government died at the hands of American soldiers (it appears) and they have every right to be upset by that. I am convinced that the US military will be cleared of anything more egregious than possibly poor decision-making under duress. But I will withhold judgement until the facts are available and would encourage other's to do so as well.
Posted by: the truth 2 at March 09, 2005 11:40 AM (ocOr3)
38
The most likley senario is that she turned herself over to the terrorists so they could use her to obtain a ransom for her release to help their cause. Then either one of the agents shot the people in the car or the terrorists were informed or aware of the route they were taking and they shot up the car for propaganda purposes.
Posted by: Jim at March 09, 2005 11:42 AM (okO8M)
39
REMINDER: My site has a problem "remembering info" when you try to comment from an archive page. If you would like the site to "remember your info" the next time you return you should go to the main page and access comments through the pop-up commenting windown at the bottom of each post. For some odd reason, this is the only way I can get it to work. Sorry for the annoyance.
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at March 09, 2005 11:44 AM (JQjhA)
40
Man, this blog attracts a lot of deluded lefty fools! Is it a pheromone thing?
Posted by: Bruce at March 09, 2005 11:44 AM (YAZNf)
41
in her own words
Â…Â’You donÂ’t understand the situation. We are anti-imperialists, anti-capitalists, communists,Â’ they said. The Iraqis only kidnap American sympathizers, the enemies of the Americans have nothing to fear.
Sgrena is a chronic America-hater of the old Communist school. Her blundering stupidity led to her kidnapping.
http://austinbay.net/blog/index.php?p=134
"the enemies of the Americans have nothing to fear"...sounds like the Leftie Losers, guess again comrade Marco
Posted by: Donjuan at March 09, 2005 12:14 PM (PJ4Iq)
42
Just glancing at the car she was traveling in, it looks like a Toyota. Can those even go 100 mph?
Posted by: Joe at March 09, 2005 12:28 PM (ZNRnz)
43
The car was not speeding - in fact the driver had to slow down to make a 90 degree turn.
The Italian government, ally of the U.S. in the occupation of Iraq, stands by this fact, recounted by the actual driver, an intelligence agent.
The autopsy report on Calipari says that he was killed by a single gun shot to the head, with one other wound on his body.
There is also speculation that Calipari was the target of the shooting, based on his negotiations with the kidnappers of the three Italian mercenaries, and the two female Italian aid workers (who were taken with two Iraqis aid workers), and the presumed ransom paid. Simona Torretta was interviewed by Manifesto recently, and spoke for the first time of some of the details of her departure from Iraq, arranged by Calipari. In short, he managed to smuggle the two women out of the country, using an Italian Red Cross airplane at the Baghdad airport. The speculation also centers around his many contacts in Iraq, what information he may have concerning contact/dealings between Americans and ex-Baathists.
Italian speculation during the kidnapping of the two Simonas was that John Negroponte had brought his death squad politics to Iraq. The kidnapping of the four mercenaries, one of whom was killed, can be explained as an act against perceived "enemies of the Iraqi people". However, the kidnapping, and killing, of Enzo Baldoni, a pacifist journalist doesn't make as much sense. The kidnapping of Simona Pari and Simona Torretta, who were actively helping the Iraqi people, makes no sense at all - except if you are trying to divide the Italian peace movement, which is incredibly strong.
A side bar: the release of the three surviving mercenaries ended with a blitz, conveniently videotaped, and conveniently very blurry and in dim light. There was healthy suspicion that the blitz was staged, coming as it did right before the Italian elections for the European Parliament, in which Forza Italia (Berlusconi's party) was predicted to do very poorly. Calipari was involved in the negotiations for the release, and the presumed ransom. The next release, he did not let the two Simonas be interrogated by the Americans, choosing instead to smuggle them out of Iraq.
The kidnapping of Margaret Hassan made no sense either; she was well known and respected among the Iraqis. However, England paid no ransom, and she was killed. Again, speculation said that Negroponte was "outsourcing" the kidnapping, and any money that could be made belonged to the kidnappers.
Into the mix, add the history of the U.S. interferring in Italian politics, such as Gladio, P2, and you see why some Italians may have a healthy scepticism of American motives.
As for the insults to the Italian communists, they have a very different reputation in Italy. The communists and social-ists had fought from the beginning against fascism in Italy. Social programs that some Americans consider "social-ist" were adopted by post war governments, and these programs are very popular, even as Berlusconi tries to dismantle them. Most recently, the communists seemed to be the only ones not tainted by the "tangentopoli" scandals of the 90s; the giving and taking of large bribes which involved the good capitalist and Catholic party, the Christian Democrats, and the in-name-only social-ist party headed by Craxi, patron of Berlusconi. As the scandal unraveled, it came to light that the good Christian capitalists were dealing with the Mafia - which makes it rather difficult to eradicate organized crime.
Regarding the telephones, I read that some expected that information could be taken regarding the telephones calls made and received.
Posted by: Anna at March 09, 2005 12:33 PM (pB2IF)
44
As an American, I really don't care if our soldiers take out a few innocent people. Our priorities are
1. Root out and destroy terrorist elements supported in Iraq
2. Destroy Iraq's capability to support terror
3. Install a friendly gov't there so we can leave the clean up and patrol duty to them
4. Have all of our boys survive and come home to their families and loved ones
Sorry, but this story will never get legs in the US, because, well, to be blunt about it, we just don't give a rat's behind if 10,000 Iraqis are bombed out of existence or if they don't have electricity or if Italian agents disobey soldiers and are blown to kingdom come.
It's too bad this thing has to happen, but really, who even cares? I don't. If everyone in that car were killed, I still wouldn't care. My concern is for the soldiers - I want them home safe. If that means that they have to be extra cautious and shoot at people that scare them, whether they are truly dangerous or not, so be it.
From what I have read about this Italian Communist Reporter, too bad they didn't kill her too.
Posted by: 24 at March 09, 2005 12:33 PM (cuTsc)
45
I find myself believing the military's version is much closer to the truth than Sgrena's. However, I have to take issue with one comment, that being a "senior military US official" claims the car was traveling in excess of 100mph. I've had to change a flat tire in the breakdown lane on an interstate, where traffic was moving at probably 60 - 70mph. When I try to envision events as described by the military occurring in a car moving 100 mph, it doesn't work. Somebody in the military hierarchy is, I suspect, laying it on a bit thick in an effort to discredit an account - the journalist's - which can be rather easily discredited on its face. As I'm sure many here know, when an exxageration is revealed, it can turn into a significant backfire, and provides a rather easy way for the other side to deflect the debate away from the truth.
Posted by: Mike Tierney at March 09, 2005 12:34 PM (gFhTz)
46
Please excuse the hyphen in the word s-o-c-i-a-l-i-s-t. The software identified six letters that spell a medication associated with spam.
So the poor social-ists are being tagged as spamming capitalists?
Posted by: Anna at March 09, 2005 12:37 PM (pB2IF)
47
24
Interesting opinion you have there.
It begs the question. If you and as you claim, the rest of America could care less if 10,000 Iraqis are killed indiscriminately, and if as appears to be the case, our final reason for the occupation of Iraq is to bring freedom to Iraqis and remove a brutal dictator who killed his own people, why bother having the soldiers hang around any longer?
You know, the ones you claim to care about, yet dismiss their remaining primary mission?
Posted by: davebo at March 09, 2005 01:16 PM (KqO+b)
48
Sorry, but this story will never get legs in the US,
Right, no one has heard about this one.
because, well, to be blunt about it, we just don't give a rat's behind if 10,000 Iraqis are bombed out of existence or if they don't have electricity or if Italian agents disobey soldiers and are blown to kingdom come.
Speak for yourself.
Posted by: mantis at March 09, 2005 01:46 PM (zmcHh)
49
what the f is a moon bat
Posted by: Dave at March 09, 2005 01:56 PM (DHVuR)
50
I loved this quote from the BBC:
"Sgrena's outspoken anti-war stance should have endeared her to Iraqi insurgents fighting the US-led forces, said friends and colleagues shocked at her capture on 4 February."
How many will now die because of the $10 million dollars she gave the terrorists? Aside from her hero, who died for her recklessness.
Posted by: moptop at March 09, 2005 02:49 PM (JUzou)
51
Mantis,
No one is hearing about this one. The only people following this idiotic tale are folks who are already so politically polarized that no story affects them. This story has no legs. It is a blogosphere/talk radio topic, but to the general public, this is a no-go, and they really are not interested how it turns out one way or another. All they care about is how many of our boys are dead, when they come home, when Iraq's government is fixed up, and whether or not terrorists are hindered through all of this.
I think those of us who follow politics closely sometimes forget that almost no one in the US is interested in politics, and that very few follow any story at all other than the biggest stories.
The people yammering on about this idiot reporter unfortunately not being shot are people already so right wing or left wing that no matter the outcome of this story or 1000 more like it, they will not change their views.
Americans truly just do not care at all about this kind of thing. We are essentially isolationists and are very ethnocentric. Most Americans won't even be able to pronounce this woman's name or even know where Italy is.
No legs. Sorry. This is a tempest in a tea pot. Shoot more Italians or anyone else. It won't matter. The people who believe in the war will continue to do so, the people who will be against it already are. Everyone has already played every card they have.
The Terror War effort will continue with abandon until some sense of completion or victory is felt by the White House. Nothing can change that other than a mind-blowing scandal, and Bush is too clean for that so far.
Posted by: 24 at March 09, 2005 02:59 PM (TFSHk)
52
More than likely the report, or what was said, should have been "100 KNH" not "100 MPH". Sounds more reasonable.
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at March 09, 2005 03:04 PM (JQjhA)
53
Davebo,
The only reason we don't bring our troops home right now is that if we leave, terrorists and Islamo-fascists will seize power in Iraq. We are doing what we have done at the end of every national conquest - we are occupying for seven years or so and acting as that nation's police and military until they pull up their pants and fasten their belts on their own.
As far as freeing the Iraqis, I don't give a hoot about whether or not they are free. I believe they should earn their own freedom, not have it handed to them by a third party. If they didn't like Saddam, it was their job to get rid of him.
The only reason I support us going over there is that I believe his attitude toward us, military capability, past acts of war by firing missiles at planes in the no fly zone, past acts of war by refusing to provide documented evidence that he destroyed WMD were all grounds for an assault, if for no other reason than just to show the world what we are capable of.
So, once order is restored, through a dictatorship or whatever, once terrorists cannot function there, then we can go home.
Unless of course Iraq is just to be a base of operations for war against Syria and Iran, in which case we'll still be arguing this in 2027.
Posted by: 24 at March 09, 2005 03:08 PM (TFSHk)
54
24--I used to think the exact same thing. Seriously, up until a month or two ago. After the elections it seems pretty hard to doubt that setting up a democratic government was not only morally the right thing to do, but also in our nation's interest.
Like you, I think the national interest is paramount in foreign policy. But the neocon arguement that democracy-liberalism is in our interest seems pretty convincing at this moment in history.
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at March 09, 2005 03:11 PM (JQjhA)
55
davebo: the mission is to protect the US. Freeing Iraq is only a means to that end.
We're accomplishing the mission in the most humane, compassionate way possible, because we're nice guys. Sure, we'd like Iraqis to live nice long happy free lives, and we're trying to ensure that they do. But this method is a luxury which we will abandon if/when necessary.
Posted by: kate q at March 09, 2005 03:14 PM (cR934)
56
Rusty,
There is no "democracy" anywhere in the world. If you mean to use that popular misnomer to indicate "a republic" then you would be more accurate. "Democracy" is mob rule, not elected leadership. Sorry, but that's a sore point with me that people talk about democracy.
But in any event, Iraq will never be a republic with freedom like the US, neither will any other Arab nation. It is culturally counter to their beleif system.
All of these efforts will fail in the end, imo. One of the major requirements of a successful republic is that the populace be educated, rather wealthy, and have basic police protection. In Iraq, none of these have ever existed, and they are not getting any better.
Dictatorship is the way to go. Put in a puppet, let him suppress the insurrection properly with force, and then get the heck out. Musharraf has been great for us, and we should install another one there.
Any republic will fall as the ignorant masses vote in theocratic authoritarians who are basically anti-American.
The whole point of the war was to remove Iraq as a threat. As long as the idiot people there in any middle eastern country can vote, we are threatened.
Posted by: 24 at March 09, 2005 03:18 PM (TFSHk)
57
I think this whole number of the checkpoint shooting is a red herring from (Sgrenas' words) "anti-imperialists, anti-capitalists, and communist." The real issue here is the Italian (rumored $5 million) ransom cover up. Can you say - Islamic fundamentalist covert aid?
Posted by: High Hill Hank at March 09, 2005 04:43 PM (4sK3S)
58
Anna, and other Sgrena acolytes,
Three questions: Can you name an orphanage in Rome - or a hospital, or a homeless shelter - that could use $6 M worth of Lira?
How many pounds of Ammonium Nitrate can $6 M buy in Syria?
What would a professed Baathist sympathizer and anti-American journalist have to gain from staging a stunt like this?
Answer these questions, and I'll be able to take you seriously. Dodge them, and continue to use heresay to discredit our troops in the field, and you aren't worthy of the bandwidth your words are hogging on this blog.
-Steve
Posted by: Steve at March 09, 2005 06:31 PM (D5KL8)
59
You would think that the italians, after paying $10 million ransom could afford better rims on their rental cars. The bottom line is, no matter if the car was going 100, 70, 25, or 10 miles an hour, it should have been STOPPED, not moving at all. That's what you do at a military checkpoint. I don't doubt that 300-400 shots were fired--that would only backup US statements that they fired numerous warning shots. It should also be noted that the car didn't stop, even after being fired at. What could possibly be going through your head when you decide to keep driving, eventhough you're being sprayed with bullets for a reported 20 seconds. I'll tell you what could be going through your head. "Gee, I'd like to cause an international incident which makes Americans look bad at a time when our government needs a reason to pull it's troops out of Iraq." Oh well, hopefully the brave jihadi resistance that "kidnapped" Sgrena will be able to use that $10 million to PURPOSEFULLY kill scores of Iraqi citizens and children. That's the difference between coalition soldiers and Iraqi insurgents. Anytime we kill a civilian, it is an accident. They get pleasure from it. That's why they are the bad guys and we are the good guys. I suggest any of you who feel differently about the role America is playing in wiping out terrorism move to a country that supports your beliefs, mainly canada. That's why we're free to move wherever we want. Go to a country where you can be happy. i on the other hand will continue to appreciate the United States and what it stands for. If any of you left winged freaks had gotten your way in previous wars, there wouldn't be an America. But I for one am glad we fight for what we believe in.
Posted by: Jay at March 09, 2005 07:09 PM (ywZa8)
60
"Truth" - I assume you're referring to this?
AP did indeed screw up and show this as the car that Ms Sgrena was shot in. In fact, it's the car she was kidnapped from. DU was all over this, noting how little the car was damaged, obviously a Rove Propaganda trick.
They've been strangely silent now the *real* photos showing far less damage than even the AP "fake" have been published.
Meanwhile people like yourself don't bother checking, you just spout the propaganda. This is not a fault confined to the Left. But RWDBs do tend to get to the truth eventually, and issue corrections when they're wrong. The same can't be said for people like yourself.
Posted by: Alan E Brain at March 09, 2005 07:25 PM (SiH1Z)
61
The morality of freeing oppressed people? Can you honestly look at American history and inconclusively agree? Not to say there may not have been select events...but can you just admit..."preventative war"? Continued US pressure coupled with the Iraqi election is "motivating" all our other friends out there which side to be on. Seems better than getting the snot bombed outta ya!
Posted by: ~eric~ at March 09, 2005 07:45 PM (Ql2GW)
62
So if the car was travelling at 100 mph, and was hit several times, including a tire, why does teh car look like it's in such great shape? I've seen the results of blowouts at much less speed than that, but the car on the back of the truck looks like you could change the tire and drive it away.....
I'm thinking that the driver's version is the correct one, where they were signalled by a white light, and came to a stop, whereupon they were fired at.
Posted by: sci guy at March 09, 2005 09:37 PM (yVXTt)
63
the problem is: that bullet killed an italian policeman. The prolem is: 400 bullets mean indiscriminate action, 12/13 bullets and one bullet against the driver mean: MURDER. the problem is: journalist give their versions to the Sgrena's words. In a recent interview to the italian programme Ballarò she told about " rain of fire"..no number of bullets and so on. How could a person wounded and schocked remember every single thing?? The problem is: Usa soldiers killed Calipari. Sorry for my english, i'm italian.
Posted by: Bianca at March 10, 2005 04:28 AM (fXX2+)
64
"A bullet killed an Itlian police man". I am sorry for that. But Bianca, you don't need murder to account for it. The number of bullet is not a deciding factor, IMO, as by itself it says little about planning or intent.
I would point out that American forces have killed hundreds of Americans as well. Was that murder, too? And it is not a new story, example, in Gulf War I, about 24% of US fatalities were related to friendly fire.
Moreover, the car bombing tactics used by the insurgents dramatically increase the odds of these type accidents occuring (which must be an added value in their eyes). Try to imaging yourself as a solider whose brothers are constantly being killed by exploding cars - you have to get the car stopped and still keep a safe distance from it - could you say that you might not shoot an innocent driver - I could not say that. This must be a terrible situation for both the soliders at the checkpoint and the drivers.
Please try to keep in mind that the most likely explanation remains that it was an accident, and not a plot to "murder" our Italian friends. I suppose it's hard for some to accept that reality. Especially after all the attention her kidnapping received in Italy. But as I see it there is an effort underway to make this incident a political issue in Italy, when it should not be.
Note to Anna, you are correct that the phones probably register the calls made and recieved, however this information can be obtained from the service providers in any event. Second, I am skeptical of that the US solidiers deprived the survivors of thier phones. However, this point does lead to a thorny moral issue - namely, if the Italians had useful information about the kidnappers, who are virtualy sure to kidnap and kill others (including possible more of the alledgely lucrative Italians), would they not share that information with the US?
Posted by: JP at March 10, 2005 07:35 AM (11h7j)
65
Some people seem to be quite exercised by the reports that cell phones were confiscated. No one has yet to mention that the soldiers may have believed them to be potential detonation devices. Seems like I've read reports that terroists are using cell phones for just such purposes. It's is probably standard procedure to remove such items. The question is, where are they now?
Posted by: RG at March 10, 2005 08:39 AM (Y6owi)
66
I'm Italian. I love america. Truly. Half of my family lives there. I love american sense of freedom, I love american music, cinema, technology. But today, reading this lines, I feel somehow disgusted.
How the hell cold someone arrive to say things such as "Sorry, but this story will never get legs in the US, because, well, to be blunt about it, we just don't give a rat's behind if 10,000 Iraqis are bombed out of existence or if they don't have electricity or if Italian agents disobey soldiers and are blown to kingdom come"? I'd like all Italian who support you people in this war could read this words. I'd like all our soldiers in Iraq could read it.
Shame on you.
Posted by: sarah at March 10, 2005 09:27 AM (h7uj/)
67
Uh Oh...this fills in alot of holes in this story.
Berlusconi signals shift in 'hostages' policy
http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=618446
"Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini admitted to Parliament on Tuesday that the Italians had not informed the Americans at Camp Victory in Baghdad Airport that they were bringing the freed hostage Giuliana Sgrena out of captivity.
Italy avoided sharing sensitive information about its hostage negotiations with the Americans lest the latter decided to intervene. Likewise the need for discretion meant that Calipari and his secret service colleague were obliged to move around Baghdad in an unprotected car with Iraqi number plates, and without an armed escort.
He was unable to admit that Italy has been paying huge ransoms - up to $8 million, it is claimed, for the freedom last week of Giuliana Sgrena - because as his justice minister pointed out on Tuesday, paying ransom is a criminal offence in Italy."
Posted by: Donjuan at March 10, 2005 09:43 AM (PJ4Iq)
68
What a load of shit this site is!
The Italian government denies paying a ransom.
The Italian security agents who wer ein the car support Sgrena's version.
Sgrena herself now says she doesn't believe she was the target of a deliberate assassination. Her original comments were that the attack "felt like an ambush" and that she couldn't rule out teh possibility that it was deliberate.
Anyone who would categorically rule out that possibility without all the information is just too fucking naive to take seriously, as is anyone who believes it categorically without taking time to look at the evidence.
As for those who say they wish she had been killed, or who don't have a problem with the fact that similar incidents resulting from the checkpoint policies have already killed thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians, well you people are nothing but bloodthirsty fascists, plain and simple.
Posted by: A Hermit at March 10, 2005 10:37 AM (vd5Rq)
69
http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/10670.html
Toward the beginning of the report, which can be streamed online, a camera crew follows a small company of soldiers posted at a highway on-ramp checkpoint. At one point a car is seen in the distance. The soldiers do not wave it off, use hand signals or fire shots that could be perceived as warning shots. Instead, with the car barreling down the road toward them they pause, watch, and then start firing. From the soldiers' perspective it is impossible to determine the occupants of the car or their purpose. The car turns around and heads in the direction it came from. Was anybody shot or killed? Who knows? The soldiers don't investigate and the occupants of the car certainly don't hold a press conference to present their side.
Posted by: A Hermit at March 10, 2005 10:42 AM (vd5Rq)
70
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0307/p01s04-woiq.html
You're driving along and you see a couple of soldiers standing by the side of the road - but that's a pretty ubiquitous sight in Baghdad, so you don't think anything of it. Next thing you know, soldiers are screaming at you, pointing their rifles and swiveling tank guns in your direction, and you didn't even know it was a checkpoint.
If it's confusing for me - and I'm an American - what is it like for Iraqis who don't speak English?
In situations like this, I've often had Iraqi drivers who step on the gas. It's a natural reaction: Angry soldiers are screaming at you in a language you don't understand, and you think they're saying "get out of here," and you're terrified to boot, so you try to drive your way out.
'Stop or you will be shot'
Another problem is that the US troops tend to have two-stage checkpoints. First there's a knot of Iraqi security forces standing by a sign that says, in Arabic and English, "Stop or you will be shot." Most of the time, the Iraqis will casually wave you through.
Your driver, who slowed down for the checkpoint, will accelerate to resume his normal speed. What he doesn't realize is that there's another, American checkpoint several hundred yards past the Iraqi checkpoint, and he's speeding toward it.
Posted by: A Hermit at March 10, 2005 10:44 AM (vd5Rq)
71
Uh Oh, another apologist/appeaser, rant on.
Posted by: Donjuan at March 10, 2005 11:00 AM (PJ4Iq)
72
The pictures only show the left side of the vehicle.
According to Rai, most of the damage -- apparently 8 bullet holes -- is on the right side of the vehicle.
The tsunami of bullshit this particular slice of the Sgrena incident has generated on the RIGHT side of the bloggosphere is almost as ridiculous as the tsunami of bullshit generated by the incident in toto.
Posted by: Stuart Stark at March 10, 2005 02:59 PM (9Ywlt)
73
Sarah: That was one statement out of 250,000,000 Americans. If you hold all Americans responsible, is it okay for us to hold Italy responsible for what the Italian woman reporter says?
The truth is the commie woman reporter went to Iraq to cause trouble. This she did and got an innocent man killed for it.
Posted by: greyrooster at March 11, 2005 02:33 AM (gvOyZ)
74
I just can't believe the moonbats out there believe the U.S. Military gives a rat's ass about this minor commie reporter. She is nothing. Just stupidity. Government sets up hit on minor, insignificant commie reporter. BULLSHIT!
Posted by: greyrooster at March 11, 2005 02:42 AM (gvOyZ)
75
For what it's worth, this is my first blog, and my last, for the simple fact that people can argue back and forth until the cows come home or we invade the next country because "of its threat to the region" and still continue believing what they want to believe. Most of the commentary I've read here relates more to venting anger (like I'm doing right now, but that's different) than any sincere pursuit of reality. Morons will continue to regurgitate their own shallow perceptions as long there are other morons willing to play "pass the vomit"! What a hopeless state of affairs and a TOTAL WASTE OF TIME!
Posted by: Mike at March 13, 2005 08:55 PM (6krEN)
76
Has anyone seen the point of origin of the Italian rescue attempt, or the exact location where the incident occured?
I've been on that highway between the Green Zone and airport many times, including recently. If the drive started in either the GZ [where the Italian Embassy is I believe] or somewhere else in the city proper [e.g., the Mansour District], then it had to have passed through at least one big checkpoint leaving the city itself.
If it originated somewhere else, say between an outer suburb and the airport, then the next big checkpoint would've been just before Camp Victory.
This is an important point...if the Italians failed to inform appropriate authorities of the rescue attempt -- especially if they entered the highway somewhere between the GZ and the airport -- they were just rolling the dice by moving at any speed on that road long after dark.
The automobile they apparently were in is not the "standard" sort of vehicle that troops at a flying checkpoint would've identified as a POSSIBLE friendly; ie, a recent model Toyota Land Cruiser or Chevrolet Suburban. A tiny Corolla or whatever it was, would've likely been seen as a potential threat under those circumstances.
It would be interesting to put everyone involved, including the presumed hostage Sgrena, through a polygraph. Inexact science perhaps, but might move things closer to ground truth.
My opinion: the Italians screwed it up big time. And now some bad people have a bunch of millions to continue underwriting criminal attacks against both Coalition forces and innocent Iraqis. Berlusconi has more than a few questions to answer himself, since it's clear that he knew what was going on and must've considered the implications of paying off terrorists. A sad state of affairs
Posted by: Pasha at March 13, 2005 09:33 PM (hRZka)
77
The photos are a hoax! Why is there no bullet holes on the front end if the engine block was shot (as the "American" version claims? Why are the soldiers in the photo not wearing American uniforms??? (I am an american soldier who was in Iraq.) Why are they not wearing battle gear, ie Kevlar helmet and body armor. I don't speak or read Italian, so I don't know if La Repubblica is really claiming this was the car (Does La Repubblica have an English version of there website?)
The car looks in remarkably good condition for one that has been "speeding" along Iraqi roads.
Is this a right-wing hoax to discredit Giuliana Sgrena or an unconvincing American coverup of something bigger.
I see on the news the Americans are refusing to let Italian officials examine the car - suspicious indeed.
An interesting side note: prior to her capture, Giuliana Sgrena investigated the unit of the troops who fired upon her for raping Iraqi girls.
I am not a conspiratist who thinks this was an assasination attempt ordered by the Pentagon, but I can see some disgruntled soldiers wanting to scare her.
That's my piece. What's your response, bloggers?
Thanks all for hearing me.
- James
Posted by: James at March 24, 2005 11:34 AM (TLa3t)
78
Apparently, she claims the car was shot from behind. So the bullets probably pierced the engine block coming thru the rear window.
If this is the car, then they didnt show the rear of it. Not saying what she says is true, but if it is true, then that would explain why the pictures to the front shows little damage.
I have also heard Italian officials have not been allowed to inspect the car (just read it on a blog somewhere, so I dont know if its true either) but if THAT is true, it would also lead me to be suspicious of these photos.
Posted by: goyen1 at March 29, 2005 10:27 PM (JT6Ur)
79
Also, the photos to the front of the vehicle show no entry shot to the hood or front of the car from any ordinance that would have destroyed the engine block, as the US soldiers said they did. So it leads me to believe that it is possible that the engine block was destroyed by a shot from the rear.
Posted by: goyen1 at March 29, 2005 10:31 PM (JT6Ur)
80
Photos show the rear window shot out - Go to link #4:
http://search.corriere.it/cgi-bin/corsera.chm?m=1&q=Giuliana%20Sgrena&sort=1&doc_id_1=&keywords=&boolean=&resource=
Maybe there was more than "one bullet". Still no barrage but I wonder why out of all the web sites posting the same photos the one photo showing where they really shot was never included except on this one?
Posted by: schmartz at April 01, 2005 04:35 PM (g4fi0)
81
MSNBC says they got a copy of the "preliminary" report...
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7491280/
One thing I noticed:
------------------------------------------------------
The investigation found the car was about 130 yards from the checkpoint when the soldiers flashed their lights as a warning to stop. But the car kept coming and, at 90 yards, warning shots were fired. At 65 yards, when the car failed to stop, the soldiers used lethal force — a machine gun burst that killed Calipari and wounded Sgrena and the driver.
Senior U.S. military officials say it took only about four seconds from the first warning to the fatal shots, but insist the soldiers acted properly under the current rules of engagement.
------------------------------------------------------
First warned at 130 yards away with flashlights... fatal shots began at 65 yards away... 65 yards in 4 seconds... I'm no good at math, anybody? 33mph or so? Is that about right?
Posted by: efuseakay at April 13, 2005 10:12 PM (PQDom)
82
a math lesson
It was reported a few days ago:
http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/23237.htm
"The car was about 130 yards from a checkpoint when the soldiers flashed their lights to get it to stop. They fired warning shots when the car was within 90 yards of the checkpoint, but at 65 yards, they used deadly force.
Sgrena has told CBS that the car she was in was going 30 mph. At 30 mph, a car is going 15 yards per second. So, according to the U.S. military, they fired warning shots within 2.7 seconds of flashing a warning light, and used "deadly force" 2.3 seconds after that. And actually, if the U.S. military story were true and the car were really travelling at "high speed", let's be generous and call that only 45 mph, that's 22 yards per second, meaning 1.8 seconds between warning lights and warning shots, and 1.6 seconds between warning shots and deadly shots.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/12/60II/printable687555.shtml
Now, there are variables, but typical perception plus reaction times are of the order of 1.5 seconds, that is, the time it takes to perceive a problem (such as a warning signal) and move your foot to the break.
www.edmu nds.com/ownership/driving/articles/43810/article.html
That means that, according to the military's story, shots were fired at the vehicle less than 0.3 seconds after the vehicle could possibly have begun to slow down, even if they were paying close attention and they had immediately perceived that the alleged flashing light was meant as a signal to stop.
However that 0.3 second is actually overstated, because the gunman (or gunmen), attempting to perceive if the car was responding to their warning signal to slow down, have perception and reaction times of their own, so in fact, they were pulling the trigger before they could possibly have perceived if the car were slowing down.
And likewise, if the so-called warning shots were supposed to have served any purpose whatsoever, once again the "deadly force" shots were being squeezed off well before the warning shots could possibly have had any effect.
And on that basis, the military has "exonerated itself" from any wrongdoing.
http://lefti.blogspot.com/2005_04_01_lefti_archive.html#111373194794883786
Posted by: ampikle at April 27, 2005 05:21 AM (syLUc)
83
Saddam's Elite camel jockeys were the elite of the elite.. They threatened everything.. Donkeys, sheep, farmers... With his side kick al cia zach, they planned to conquer deh world... Deh world...
Oh yea, they also raped every sheep they could find.
I used to think what could make humans such despicable things, the likes of Genghis khan.. Now I dont wonder, I am just resigned that most humans are morons.
Like this mad rabbid dog.
He explained, "I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poison gas against uncivilised tribes."
Posted by: ampikle at April 27, 2005 05:31 AM (syLUc)
84
note the pics are only from one side view of the car. what does the U.S. gov't have to hide?
Posted by: asdfasfd at April 27, 2005 10:09 AM (hnH82)
85
403853: Hey, does anyone know where I can find a list of gas stations with low prices in my area?
Posted by: Debra Riley at October 17, 2005 07:25 PM (TYiPH)
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