1 Funny how hiring a man who didn't go through our absurd immigration circus makes your business "ill-gotten gains." Oh, but they broke a really stupid law. That makes them bad. Nobody in America has ever broken stupid laws, ever. I mean, the way those illegals are acting, you might have thought that America was founded on the breaking of immoral law, or has a proud history of such or some silly stuff like that.

2 How is protecting American sovereignty "immoral"? Seriously. Unless you are arguing that a nation does not have a right to decide levels of immigration, then I don't get it.

3 How is American "sovreignty" threatened by immigration, illegal or not? I am aware of such fringe (and stupid) groups as MECHA and the like, but the vast majority of immigrants, illegal and legal both, come here to work, not take over the US and turn it into Mexico. The vast majority realize that they left Mexico for a reason. Secondly, all of the solutions presented to-date are patently anti-American in their spirit. Closed borders, insane immigration policy? When did America turn into a bunch of xenophobes? As I said in the other thread, I would rather have a simple checkpoint at the border where one gets checked for any criminal history in Mexico or America, along with (of course) terrorist ties. That way, the border patrol doesn't have to deal with thousands crossing the border every day, and knows that the people crossing the border are not coming here because they want to work hard and partake in the American economy.

4 What exactly is the rationale/need for high rates of LEGAL immigration in the first place? Is it solely to maintain some myth fastasy of America's orgins, or is there some practical necessity involved? Its important to note that one can not have high numbers of illegals without high rates of legals to disappear in and function within.

5 MiB, hispanics like you make me embarrassed for hispanics. Please, shut up.

6 "What exactly is the rationale/need for high rates of LEGAL immigration in the first place? Is it solely to maintain some myth fastasy of America's orgins, or is there some practical necessity involved?" I'm curious as to why you think you'd need a reason to not restrict immigration. I would think that restrictions need reasons behind them, good, reasonable reasons. But thats me, with my crazy logic. Carlos: You can just refrain from commenting on what I say. That would work spectacularly, since you have nothing of substance to say anyway, so we wouldn't miss out on anything.

7 Carlos, MiB is expressing one side of the immigration problem that we will have to deal with, and he does not shame hispanics. I disagree with you on that. As much as I would like to make everything go back to square 1, I believe MiB represents a faction in America that we will have to compromise with if we are going to be able to solve this problem. I disagree with him, but I also realize that his view will have to be taken into consideration. I do think that MiB and other Mexican-Americans who fit into his category need to take the lead and speak out against the Mexicans who advocate the ridiculous, and in the end very dangerous idea of separation. I would not like to see any bloodshed sometime in the future over these silly proposals. They should be nixed by people like MiB, who is American first. That is the way it should be.

8 We have got a serious problem - that will get ugly in time. Ramifications of the high numbers impact are already readily apparent in many urban areas - why some chose to gloss over it with esoteric puff is beyond me.

9 For the record, if any group of Mexicans tried any of that stupid hanky-panky, I'd be right up there on the firing line. On the opposite side of them. I've read too much Mexican history and know too much Mexican politics to delude myself into thinking such a situation would be to anyone's benefit. Anyway, I don't see how you "do not agree" with the principles I espoused. What, precisely, is wrong with wanting to work here? What, precisely, is right with picking arbitrary numbers out of the air, declaring that "beyond this, no more" and then demanding people respect that farce of a law? You'll note that just law is objective law. It can be explained rationally, both in the reasoning for its particulars and why the law itself is moral. Stealing is immoral - you did not earn what you have taken. So stealing is accompanied by a penalty to recompensate the victim from the damage you caused. And so on. There is no such reasoning behind the insane immigration restrictions.

10 What is wrong with wanting to work here? Nothing. But a nation to be a nation has a border, and control of that border, or no nation exists. That is one of the requirements for statehood. No border, no state. What is right about picking arbitraty numbers? If there were no numbers, then there would be no policy. In other words, there are approximately 300,000,000 Chinese and 200,000,000 Indians, and 200,000,000 others who would like to work in the US. There has to be some kind of policy, or overwhelmed would not be an apt description of what would happen. I ask you, MiB, to look at it another way. If millions of Americans were illegally crossing the border into Mexico, would Mexico have the right to control its border? Or if thousands of Guatamalans were crossing into Mexico, would Mexico have the right to stop them, or should they be allowed to come into Mexico? Or substitute any nation-state for Mexico. I'm not just picking on Mexico, but am trying to illustrate the concept of the nation-state.

11 Or if thousands of Guatamalans were crossing into Mexico, would Mexico have the right to stop them, or should they be allowed to come into Mexico? Mexico's southern border is a veritable Maginot line. That's what makes their faux indignation about us closing our own borders so nauseating. The hypocrisy stinks to the high heavens. Don't fall for all their puffery about justice and compassion for a split second. Immigration activists are spouting the kind of manipulative hooey Liberals have been feeding us for decades. And now the problem has grown unamanageable. We need to regain control of our borders. Act now! Stop the flood! Enforce our laws! And if the GOP sells out on this one, I'm sitting out the next two elections. I simply won't show up. At least the Liberal Democrats are being true to their looniness. But not the GOP-- they are being craven globalists.

12 "Nothing. But a nation to be a nation has a border, and control of that border, or no nation exists. That is one of the requirements for statehood. No border, no state." So, enforce the borders - you'll note that my suggestion for the proper way to handle this is to enforce the border but also allow mexican nationals to come here at a fairly unrestricted clip, if they wish to. But why condemn an illegal for coming here to work? If the law was just, as opposed to stupid and ineffectual, there wouldn't be a border problem. And, frankly, I find it odd to comprehend how one could construe someone coming here to work as a threat to national sovreignty. Terrorists? Yes. Criminals? Absolutely. But not workers. Yet, you'll notice that the solutions proposed all cheifly punish these very people - in fact, many ignore criminals and terrorists entirely! For example, the absurd practice of making it a felony to hire an illegal immigrant. A terrorist will not be trying to work at Wal-Mart. A criminal will be busying robbing people and dealing drugs. So who is punished by this? Businesses are, and people who wish to make an honest living in America. That is wrong. "If there were no numbers, then there would be no policy. In other words, there are approximately 300,000,000 Chinese and 200,000,000 Indians, and 200,000,000 others who would like to work in the US. There has to be some kind of policy, or overwhelmed would not be an apt description of what would happen." A poor exaggeration, one. Two, the marketplace determines whether or not there is an opening for immigrants - if there is a time that unskilled labor is no longer needed here to the extent that someone can come here and find employment fairly readily, then obviously unskilled labor will stop coming here. But thats me, being a free-market man and all. I guess personal responsibility and freedom of choice is far, far too much to ask of America. Right?

13 "I for one welcome our new illegal alien overlords." On a lighter note, nice Simpsons reference.

14 Ok, MiB, if Mexican nationals can come here unrestricted, why can't everyone? Why should Mexicans be given preference? That in itself would be against the law, and would open the government up to suits filed by citizens of other nations. And believe me, there would be plenty of lawyers ready and willing to take that suit. And no, the marketplace is no longer able to determine employment. Many laws now govern labor. But I will say this, I believe that large numbers of unskilled workers drive down wages. And I also believe that the unemployment rate for native hispanics in the US is very high, and the large numbers of immigrants contributes to that. But I believe you and I have argued the merits on both sides of the issue, and something will be done about the situation at the border. I believe some sort of guest worker program will be established, and I think there will be more enforcement at the border. We'll see.

15 >>>if Mexican nationals can come here unrestricted, why can't everyone? Exactly. What makes Mexican nationals so damn special? Mexico has no special privilege to dump its problems on us. Mexico is one of our largest oil suppliers. Do those poor indians see any of that oil revenue? Doubtful. The more illegals we let in, the longer Mexico can avoid having to fix the problems in their own shithole country where the spanish elites live high on the hog while indian peasants have to resort to "el Norte". If immigration activists really hate whitey so much, then talk to Mexican whiteys who run that country like a feudal estate.

16 "Ok, MiB, if Mexican nationals can come here unrestricted, why can't everyone? Why should Mexicans be given preference? That in itself would be against the law, and would open the government up to suits filed by citizens of other nations. And believe me, there would be plenty of lawyers ready and willing to take that suit." When have I suggested that that should be done solely for Mexican nationals? Strawman argument...GO! "And no, the marketplace is no longer able to determine employment. Many laws now govern labor." Thats a bigger problem than illegal immigration, if "the marketplace no longer determines employment." " But I will say this, I believe that large numbers of unskilled workers drive down wages. And I also believe that the unemployment rate for native hispanics in the US is very high, and the large numbers of immigrants contributes to that." So? All of a sudden you're virtuously trying to prevent them from coming here...for their own good? Is this Hillary Clinton speaking? Are you going to run for prez in '08?

17 Ah, now, MiB, that was an insult I hardly deserved. Then your belief is that the United States should allow anyone to come here in whatever numbers the "market" will bear. The vast majority, including myself, is against that. And no, I'm not trying to keep them from coming here in uncontrolled numbers for their own good, but for the good of the people of the United States. Whether you agree or not, large numbers of illegal aliens use up services paid for by the citizens of the United States. And before you say illegals pay some taxes, I am talking about things like schools and hospitals that have been built over a period of years, and uncontrolled growth puts a strain on social services, which have to be paid for by the taxpayer. And yes, it is a problem that the marketplace no longer determines everything, but the majority thinks we should have such things as the minimum wage, so I abide by the laws of the land, even if I don't agree with them. If I can get them changed, then well and good, but I do it by the democratic process that was set up over 200 years ago, and since it has worked for the most part well, I am sticking with it. But, of course, you are allowed and encouraged to do whatever within the law you can to change it. That is how the system works.

18 Have I entered another hostile thread? What's wrong with hispanics?

19 Not one damn thing, George. Hispanics are just as good as anyone else, and no one here with any sense is saying they aren't. The thread has to do with illegal immigration, not picking on hispanics. And that should be clear.

20 >>>>The thread has to do with illegal immigration, not picking on hispanics. And that should be clear. JJ, It's entirely in the interests of the pro-invasion lobby to make this issue about race. Now they're painting it as the "civil rights" issue of our time. DISGUSTING. So they'll keep repeating the race card, and you'll have to keep denying it till you're blue in the face. It makes me embarrassed for all those hispanics who have not been politicized by the Left and who aren't Mechistas and Aztlanists, and who favor border control.

21 And don't be deceived by MiB's "free market" argument. He's using the free market to further his agenda the same way terrorists use democracy and open societies to further theirs. To both, free markets and democracy are a convenient means to an end, that's all.

22 MiB.. they're not breaking a "stupid" law. Immigration laws are in place to protect the security of the US and to protect American citizens. I'm all for LEGAL immigration. What I don't appreciate is somebody sneaking across our sovereign border, waving their mexican flag, and then expecting to start sucking up the social services free of charge. It's just plain wrong.

23 If I have to have an ID, and pay taxes, every swinging dick has to! Plus a dam chest x-ray.

24 > America: Partake the bounty of illegal immigration and savor the most expensive products and services in the history of mankind. Please take the time and savor the "cheap" fruits of illegal immigration and behold the La Raza folks and the Greedy fuckwits while they dazzle us with the most powerful tricknology ever, the appeal of something for nothing. and please take the time and thank them for their generosity when your taxes go up or benifits/protections are cut for City, State, and Federal services. and thank them for the Illegal Immigration Corporation and their overpriced race pimps for the.. >fake ID rackets, >mature multi national drug smuggling rings, >voter fraud, >"free" school education rackets, >over crowded jails and prisons costs, >local, State, Fedederal "police" costs, >extremely expensive over crowded court systems, >the health insurance preminums and co-pays go up because each State presses the insurance companys to share their costs of the uninsured in order do biz in said State, >and the the loss of family farms and ranches who grew the the most important crop ever, resolute patriotic CITIZENS. be grateful and enjoy!

25 Carlos your line about radicals turning their rage to the south was the best line I have seen all week and I wish more people would repeat it. Grand Slam! Touchdown! Goal! ect.

26 Mexico's southern border ain't a maginot line, hence the large number of salvadorians who sneak into this country from there.

27 "Then your belief is that the United States should allow anyone to come here in whatever numbers the "market" will bear. The vast majority, including myself, is against that." If you took how much I cared what you or "the vast majority of the American people" were for or against and added in a dime, you'd have a dime. Whats right is right. What is wrong is wrong - independently of how many people choose to be wrong. "And no, I'm not trying to keep them from coming here in uncontrolled numbers for their own good, but for the good of the people of the United States. Whether you agree or not, large numbers of illegal aliens use up services paid for by the citizens of the United States. And before you say illegals pay some taxes, I am talking about things like schools and hospitals that have been built over a period of years, and uncontrolled growth puts a strain on social services, which have to be paid for by the taxpayer." Good. The faster socialism in America collapses - the faster it is shown to be unsustainable theft, pure and simple - the better. "And yes, it is a problem that the marketplace no longer determines everything, but the majority thinks we should have such things as the minimum wage, so I abide by the laws of the land, even if I don't agree with them. If I can get them changed, then well and good, but I do it by the democratic process that was set up over 200 years ago, and since it has worked for the most part well, I am sticking with it. But, of course, you are allowed and encouraged to do whatever within the law you can to change it. That is how the system works." Or you can disobey. It works that way, too. And, if the other side is so weak, ineffectual, and lacks the will to enforce its choices, you win by default, even if they are materially stronger. Lessons from the beginning of America are just as applicable now, you know. "And don't be deceived by MiB's "free market" argument. He's using the free market to further his agenda the same way terrorists use democracy and open societies to further theirs. To both, free markets and democracy are a convenient means to an end, that's all." Wow, thats wonderful. When I make a point your entire refutation consists of casting aspersions on my motive for making the argument. I got it! Carlos is a democrat! It all fits together now. "MiB.. they're not breaking a "stupid" law. Immigration laws are in place to protect the security of the US and to protect American citizens." Tell me, exactly, what "protection" you need from an otherwise lawful illegal immigrant? Is his presence somehow a threat to you? But this is precisely what the US immigration system is set up to prevent from coming over to the USA. The more law-abiding an individual is, the less likely he is going to be here - since he has to wait years, take dumb tests, and pay lots of cash to get here by the numbers. Then you have the otherwise lawful individuals who just come here to work (good,) and of course the criminals, drug dealers and terrorists - who are not intimidated by your unenforced laws. Great idea there, muchacho. You just accomplished the exact opposite of what you were trying to do. "I'm all for LEGAL immigration. What I don't appreciate is somebody sneaking across our sovereign border, waving their mexican flag, and then expecting to start sucking up the social services free of charge. It's just plain wrong." Yes, social services are just plain wrong, being theft and all. Perhaps this highlights the issue a little better, but as usual conservatives get it wrong and attack in the wrong direction.

28 mibby said "lawful illegal" is that somethig like a pre legal illegal? or a pre felon before he became a felon? mibby I think you're a troll and I wouldn't trust you to try parking my kids bicycle.

29 "And you can disobey. It works that way too. And if the other side is so weak, ineffectual, and lacks the will to enforce its choices, you win by default, even if they are materially stronger". Now you sound like one of the La Raza fools, MiB. I hadn't taken you for one of them, but ok, I'm up for a fight myself. We will see how this plays out. There have been many others in history who have regretted pissing the American people off. We have a lot of patience, but frankly mine is running out on this immigration crap. Don't think illegal aliens can't be returned to Mexico and that the border can't be secured. It is now obvious to me and many others that this problem needs to be addressed.

30 Mippy's Mexica Bowel Movement Mippy's Bender on Mescal

31 Thanks for the link. I've credited you here: http://consul-at-arms.blogspot.com/2006/04/re-answering-13-frequently-asked.html