1 Atrocities have occured in every war since the beginning of time. It's best when they happen during an election year. Apparently.

2 Are atrocities committed by the other side just brushed aside? We see it in the news every day!!! I'm not justifying it. Just asking the old question. Where is the uproar for the other sides actions that are MUCH worse than ANYTHING we have done?

3 As Victor Davis Hanson wrote in A War Like No Other: "The wealth and very liberality of Athens also encouraged dissent and hyper-criticism at home and abroad. The Athenians' detractors expected a much higher level of fairness from them than they ever would have from the Spartans. Not until fourth century [bc] Sparta incurred comensurate jealousy and envy as the Hellenic world's only superpower, following its victory in the war, would the Greeks at last cease their distrust of imperial Athens." The oligarchy that was Sparta fell soon thereafter, for what did they have to offer otherwise? Why do so many feel it necessary that we air our dirty laundry in view of the world without applying the same standard to others? What if it turns out these soldiers were not so wrong? The damage is done. The damning eyes of the world are on these men. And why would we expect any different at this point? Who do you think the world is holding ultimately responsible for every atrocity committed, regardless of who committed it? If these soldiers are found to be innocent of any wrongdoing people will either refuse to believe it, calling it a coverup, or they'll fall back on the argument that even if they didn't do it, someone is. Lose/lose.

4 Great. Bad enough that my URL is banned, even my email address is banned now. yahoo[dot]com was "questionable content."

5 If they want to investigate a Haditha, how about heading off to Darfur? Taking the (highly) conservative estimate of 500,000 killed by Saddam's regime, than Saddam managed 20,000+ Haditha's during his rule, not includin the Iranians and Kuwaitis he managed to kill off. Can the press sink any lower?

6 I can't thank you enough for this post. Thank you for the sanity. I was outraged after I read Malkin's post yesterday.

7 These Marines are innocent until proven guilty. This will not be determined for a year or more. Courts marshal are closed procedings and only the verdict and sentence are made public. The MSM needs to get all they can right now because very soon there won't be anything else to write about with which to stir the emotions. Also I am conflicted over the attempted cover up. This smacks of Mi Lai, and I don't like this.

8 I do no think that it is entirely presumptive to either have or voice opinions before the final verdict is given in a case. A case in point might be the Saddam trial. When the Commandant of the Corps himself gives a briefing and 2 ret marine colonels Rep Kline (R) and Rep Murtha (D) both come away with the same conclusions and the republican is the one that utters the word "atrocity" I than I would consider this good evidence to base some idea as to the believability of that evidence. Vinnie as for accepting and lauding the internment of the Japanese Americans durring WW II I do not feelm that most Americans believe that this was either necessary or laudable.

9 War is a nasty business. I don't know if this story is true or not but atrocities happen in all wars. The only way any troops can be 100% perfect is to never fight. That's the left's answer to this. Never fight. Then there are no atrocities. The "war is not the answer" crowd loves these stories. But in their zeal to display their moral superiority by condemning these soldiers, they're trampling on due process. Aren't these the same people who were crying about due process for Gitmo detainees?

10 Great post, Vinnie. I tried myself to explain to the brainless fools that these things happen in every war, including WWII. I have a good friend who served in Europe who had a lot of guilt because he and others had raped and abused Germans as they moved through Germany. He and others had also stolen many items from the homes of Germans. And WWII was the so-called "good war". These things happen. Those on the Left especially, and also the Right to a certain degree, need to step back and let the investigations proceed. But the anti-military and anti-Bush elements can't pass this one up, although they would be the first to speak up for a fair trial for one of their own. So be it. In the long run it is better for us to let the Left come across as hating the military. In that sense, they play into our hands.

11 I'll stand by my first response on this issue -- IF the allegations are true, the n they merit firing squads. But only IF. And we must wait for the investigations and any subsequent trials to be complete before asserting that the allegations are trie. And even if true, the allegations in no way undercut the validity of the war effort or the general heroism of our men and women in uniform.

12 Wow, bravo!

13 That pretty much sums up why I haven't mentioned it.

14 Michelle Malkin can kiss my ass at this point. She's taking the cautious route, and by which, not defending the soldiers involved. My take: 1. The MSM and other assorted dick head leftists have been praying for another My Lai for a long time. Vietnam is widely believed to be their best moments. They're creaming their jeans hoping it's true. 2. Iraqi women and children or whoever the hell is serving as a witness are either being blackmailed into saying it, or are flat out liars. Is there evidence to support this? Well it's certainly more believeable than American soldiers going on a murder rampage 3. Even if some dirty civilians died, I'm not convinced that my give a crap meter should be elevated. It's war. End of story.

15 To be rational means to be able to weigh the significance of one set of tradeoffs against another, without demanding perfection (unless it's actually possible). But that being said the first impulse of Americans is pulled directly from the convictions of their Puritan forbears. We expect unalloyed goodness from ourselves, and we expect all our enemies to be Satan personified. Anything less than that and things get very painful. It's therefore natural for Malkin and some others to attempt to "get ahead of the curve" in order to minimize the pain. And it's also something that our opponents don't do, so tends to weigh in on the side of God's angels rather than the other crowd. But we are responding to this appropriately, and not much more than that need be said until a verdict is rendered. And by the way, I have to believe that people will adjust to a verdict of innocence if that's the way things turn out. The alternative is to believe that most people are irredeemable fools, in which case democracy isn't an appropriate form of government. But seriously, I think most of the reaction to these events comes right out of our expection of perfection... which, although probably not totally realistic, is probably what holds us together.

16 John Ryan is a liberal asshole who needs to make up his mind about reporting: Today: I do no think that it is entirely presumptive to either have or voice opinions before the final verdict is given in a case. A case in point might be the Saddam trial. When the Commandant of the Corps himself gives a briefing and 2 ret marine colonels Rep Kline (R) and Rep Murtha (D) both come away with the same conclusions and the republican is the one that utters the word "atrocity" I than I would consider this good evidence to base some idea as to the believability of that evidence. Vinnie as for accepting and lauding the internment of the Japanese Americans durring WW II I do not feelm that most Americans believe that this was either necessary or laudable. 29th May: Another example of why would should be skepital of all news coming from that region, and most wary of accepting single source stories. The now discredited story on the supposed new law passed in Iran forcing Jews to wear the yellow star is another such story. Hey john, is it too much to ask a unhinged moonbat to be consistent ? should we be skeptical of all stories from that region, or just the stories you cherrypick as being more valid that others? wipe the froth from your chin.

17 Ey Demo, little rule of thumb for ya: There are some individuals out there who are running around in the desert doing hand to hand with Tommy Taliban so your ass can sit there and take Philosophy 201 with Dr. Pony tail and wax bullshit like that over the internet. Whether they're wrong or they're right, they're right, unless you want to identify yourself with the troop spitting libs. There's no 'curve' to get ahead of, unless you actually give a shit about popularity contests.

18 Hey Dan, You talk pretty friggin' big- why don't you have your ass over in the desert lookin' out for the bad guys? I have some friends over there on their second and third tours who would love to trade places with you Using your poorly contructed logic, it must have been all right for Al Qaeda to kill our folks in the WTC on 9-11. After all, "it's war" and what are a few civilians? I doubt the "leftists" are praying for another My Lai. Bush and Rummy have done enough already to turn the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan into abortions of epic proportion. Richard Former CPT, FA, US Army

19 Until the truth comes out, shut the hell up about Haditha. Somewhere, Khomeini is smiling. No, you shut up. You and the rest of the Pants-Pissers are giving the entire world a migraine. Haditha! Haditha! HADITHA!!!!

20 There are some individuals out there who are running around in the desert doing hand to hand with Tommy Taliban so your ass can sit there and take Philosophy 201 with Dr. Pony tail and wax bullshit like that over the internet. No, they're over there so you can act like a big tough guy on the Internet, claiming brotherhood with them whilst you munch on Cheetos and post to a blog called "The Jawa Report." Don't use the troops to prop up your sagging manliness. It is pathetic.

21 >>>>Haditha! Haditha! HADITHA!!!! You're so excited about it you're practically drooling, lol!

22 Those convinced their cause is righteous can justify any action in support that cause. Just ask a terrorist.

23 Hey Richard!!! You talk pretty big for a guy on the internet. Do your friends overseas know that you apparently don't give a shit if they get run up for supposed 'war crimes'? Are they aware that you'd take the word of Iraqi young terrorists and terrorist producing women over that of God fearing US marines? That's just it: You sit there and you bring up what went on on 9/11 as though it some how acts as an aggrivating circumstance for whatever went on at Haditha. The fact is, the terrorists have attacked American civilians, and for that reason, I have very little on the order of emmotional know how to give a shit over some story that attempts to indict Americans who most likely didn't do a damned thing. As for your positively laughable assertion that the leftists aren't looking for another My Lai, why don't you utilize your opposable thumbs and google up "my lai" under google news and find out that leftists (clearly, like yourself) are just salivating over the thought that they'll get an 'American war crime' money shot.

24 A sorry-ass Kansan redleg? Who killed Josy Wales' wife and child, and made a Missouri raider out of him. Damn you redlegs!

25 Hi Dan, If you disregard the war crimes that deliberately slaughtering little children in cold blood is, you are tainting not only the criminals, but the entire US army. Don't do that. And Richard's right. Don't claim brotherhood with the soldiers overseas, when they would most likely find you repugnant.

26 Wow. This is amazing. A bunch of supposed conservatives who believe some hacked story that every dickhead baby boomer liberal is _praying_ for. It's amazing that you people neither see MASSIVE potential for bias in either the supposed witnesses (like, these hut dwellers even have the ability to be truthful about the American military) or the main stream media bias who was willing to turn what was roughly a frat hazing at abu gharib into a "human rights abuse disaster". It's just completely rediculous to me to see conservatives get into the knee jerk crap like they _expect_ this story to be true.

27 He.ay dickhead: This conservative says the less muslims to fight later is OK with me. ALL MUSLIMS ARE NOT TERRORISTS BUT ALL TERRORISTS SEEM TO BE MUSLIM. So screw the muslims and those aiding and abetting them.

28 Apparently Rooster gets it. But what about Former Army General Jesse Mcbeth? I'm sorry, I just scrolled up. His name was Richard.

29 Fuck all those arab motherfuckers. If the Marines did kill women and children, it was probably because they were being used as shields or were part of the attack. Arabs don't play by the rules. They have known nothing but sorry ass dictatorships of one form or another going all the way back to Mohammed. They are beyond hope. We should have nuked them from the start. We should have started with mecca, then bagdad, then tehran (persian mfers) and then damascus.

30 Wow! The MSM is reporting on an "incident" they found out pieces about because its been under military investigation! Since the MSM rarely "takes to the field" (they are Green Zone REMFs) isn't it nice that OUR MILITARY gives them the heads-up on things even potentially bad! I've got very little details on this (a serious military investigation or ANY civilian/criminal investigation tends to be like that - something to do with constitutional rights and stuff like that ... unless of course some DA leaks info for polictical grandstanding or other reasons). The bulk of what I've heard comes from the MSM - AND THEY ARE NOTORIOUSLY UNRELIABLE (and often biased). Anyone notice what has been said by the MSM (very little detail of course) is stangely similar to one of the scenes in Stone's Platoon (the recon/ambush/village scene). I'll wait for more info and completion of the investigation before forming an opinion and giving the MSM credibility.

31 Watch out Hondo and Mr. K. Former US Army General Rich is here. He says it happened, and when a guy claiming to have been in the military says something happened, it did!

32 Such is war. Sadly, no! I direct you all to GoArmy.com, although borderline psychosis and a willingness to commit genocide may still keep you out of Basic these days.

33 So you can't defend the military without serving in the military?

34 Haditha was a peaceful place with children playing jumprope and men in short-shorts playing tennis. That is until those evil Americans came! THE REAL HADITHA: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1553781,00.html

35 If you morons hate Arabs so much, why the hell do you support Bush's invasion of Iraq to "liberate" the Iraqis? Seems to me that your heads should explode from the contradiction. Get a clue, idiots- Americans are dying in Iraq for no good reason. But what do you care, you're not over there.

36 Dan, Go screw yourself. You don't know crap about my military service. It's always amazing to me how you dinks talk about supporting the troops but don't extend common decency to "liberals" who served in uniform. Dan, perhaps you should take a remedial reading course from Sylvan. You obviously have piss-poor reading comprehension since you mis-stated my earlier comments. Now get back to your Cheetos and Xbox war games.

37 I have been trying to get actual info on this story .... What I know and can verify is the following .... a 12 (enlisted) man Marine mechanized patrol with a SSG as senior an IED attack with 1 KIA and at least 1 WIA (probably more) the IED alleged remote detonation with accompanying small arms fire (this is important but not yet verified - if so - action is an immediate "movement on contact" in a built-up area the only "detailed" infomation the MSM has put out comes from a Lance Cpl who arrived hours!!! later as part of the clean-up/retrival/initial site investigation he claims to have take photos of the bodies - but does not have them - he claims 23 KIA including women and at least 1 child - but doesn't provide any additional info on breakdown, location, attire, weapons etc. he returned home - and got into some serious criminal problems after arriving he only went public after his criminal problems - and PTS from the "military incident" is his only defense That's all I know for now - nothing from the MSM is particularly insightful or informative at this time

38 Man, Y'all were right! We are the good guys. I just heard we are paying the 15 families involved a Total of 38,000 somolians. Don't it just make you prouderNshit to be an U-mare-kin.

39 I'll tell you what all this attention on Haditha is about... This stuff happens all the time. They want you to think that this is an isolated incident, that's why they are focusing on it. It's called, "limited hangout". A circumcision is a hell of a lot better than a neutering.

40 Dan, Go screw yourself. You don't know crap about my military service. It's always amazing to me how you dinks talk about supporting the troops but don't extend common decency to "liberals" who served in uniform. Here's what I do know about your military service, Richard Former CPT, in the US Army. You pushed paper for 6 years after you got out of ROTC. Your discharge had something to do with "don't ask, don't tell". You recieved 3 purple hearts for paper cuts recieved during your deployment to Texas. Now, the reality is your military experience or friends in the military doesn't mean a fucking thing, as last time I checked in my internet service agreement, I don't have to have military experience to post an opinion. And last time I checked, being in being a General or whatever the hell you claim to be, doesn't make you an expert on the military. How many retired generals/arm chair quarterbacks have been anti-American/Pro-Democrat media activists? What is of concern to me, is the fact that you even entertain the idea that a couple of 12 year old Children of Terrorists and some equally as fucked up Wives of Terrorists are telling the truth, whilst American soldiers (whom, lets face it: they probably vote republican, believe in Jesus, and are white - surely as a liberal you don't like them very much) you won't believe and are all about going for their throats and demanding punishment for crimes not committed. Dan, perhaps you should take a remedial reading course from Sylvan. You obviously have piss-poor reading comprehension since you mis-stated my earlier comments. Piss poor reading comprehension? Oh. Shall we? Using your poorly contructed logic, it must have been all right for Al Qaeda to kill our folks in the WTC on 9-11. After all, "it's war" and what are a few civilians? Hardly, fucktard. Vince went through this in the main post. But don't bother actually reading it. The fact of the matter is, if civilians die, it's a big fucking 'oh well'. Far better to have to off a few dozen Iraqi civilians than it is to have American civilians die. Yes. I know liberals hate to hear something like that, but American life is worth about 80 billion times as much as your average Iraqi. Now you (as a former soldier, right?) couldn't possibly disagree with that notion? I doubt the "leftists" are praying for another My Lai. Oh no? So liberal anti-American blogs weren't the first to jump up and yell My Lai? They didn't try to turn Abu Gharib Frat Pranks into My Lai? They didn't try to turn the white phosphorus story into My Lai? What are you? Fucking dense? Or do you just have a short memory? Stomp your right hoof if it's just being dense. Your left, if you've got a bad memory. The media couldn't WAIT for this story to break, so they ran out and got Jack Off Murtha and John Maverick Mccain to spit out some sound bites so they can spew some election year crap portraying guilt. And then the liberal blogs LIT UP with glee. Go ahead and google news or technorait My Lai. See just how often you pukes are talking about it.

41 With you all the way, Vinnie. I don't like the way Michelle and Allahpundit have dealt with this at all.

42 Mind explaining, Bill? Michelle and I have made two simple points: 1. If it's true, it's really bad. 2. We don't know if it's true. I stand by both of those statements. I haven't pronounced anyone guilty; I haven't called for the death penalty, as some people -- including some vets -- have. Not sure what it is, precisely, that you're objecting to in the way we've "dealt" with it. As for this bullshit from Vinnie: Because that's what the Right is doing. Making sure they get in a fraction of condemnation before the Left has a chance to jump on them for not doing so. Because, see, we always have to take the high road. Show them how better we are than they are. Yeah. Michelle is infamous for worrying about what the fucking left thinks of her. Why, this post could have been written by Kos -- or Khomeini -- himself! Make no mistake, there are people on the right acting like jackasses here. But it isn't me and it isn't MM. I look forward to your telling Greyhawk what a crypto-leftist, Khomeini-pandering douchebag he is for having written this post in which he "pillories" the Marines. Good god.

43 far better to have to off a few dozen Iraqi civilians than it is to have American civilians die. Which means you'll be heading out there to help out, no? See, you miss the point, since you're a bit dumb: it's not that you have to serve in order to have an opinion; it's that if you're so enthusiastic about wiping out all those 3-year-old raghead jihadis, you should really be waiting outside the recruiter's office. I'm sure there are a few Marines who'd be happy to postpone their third tour for you. Every day they must patrol kill boxes in cities that are full of snipers, IEDs, VIBEDs, and jehadis. But I thought Iraq was no more dangerous than Washington D.C. -- or at least, that's what Rep. Steve King (R-IA) keeps telling us all. Do get your bullshit in order.

44 Which means you'll be heading out there to help out, no? See, you miss the point, since you're a bit dumb: it's not that you have to serve in order to have an opinion; it's that if you're so enthusiastic about wiping out all those 3-year-old raghead jihadis, you should really be waiting outside the recruiter's office. I'm sure there are a few Marines who'd be happy to postpone their third tour for you. LOL. That's great. Once again the "You have to be in the military to defend the military". Same logic. Pretend like it isn't, ahem, but that's what it is. Face it, you McCain Moderates (or in your case, quite possibly worse) are all up in these marines shit, just hoping you'll get your new war crime. Anybody on the home front who defends them (thus blocking you from being a troop spitter) should be dismissed simply because they're not serving. And the person who cooked up this logic? Richard, the guy who claims to be a former 5 star general who's entire friend roster and family is currently over in Iraq. LOL. That's a lib argument if I've ever heard it. I'm not enthusiastic about killing civilians. I say, if it happens, so be it. It's the nature of warfare. Don't like it? Leave.

45 >>>I'll tell you what all this attention on Haditha is about...This stuff happens all the time Greg, even for you that's an ignorant moronic statement. You've been hanging with your traitorlib buddies for too long.

46 Carlos, what other kind of statement do you expect from an ignorant moran?

47 Hmm. I definitely don't agree that you have to serve to have an opinion. But it does stand out that you do seem hypocritical. Why did you not enlist? Is it because you are scared, or are you simply unwilling to serve your country?

48 Stupid comment Jim - ask the same about yourself - is there an answer?

49 Carlos, I’ve called for the Jaws of Life because we need to extricate your head from your ass. JJ, I love your feeble attempts at put-downs. You use nonexistent words like “dumn” and “moran” when you mean moron and dumb. You are illiterate and I’m embarrassed for you.

50 Great post, Vinnie. A wise man once said "War is hell." And God save us all from the Warm And Fuzzy Army/Navy/Air Force/Marines.

51 Greg, Wow -- Bravo Sir! you have totally eviscerated JJ with your fearless attack on his spelling! Such mastery of comebacks! -- Do you sell some sort of self help book, where we mortals can learn to cut opponents down with razor sharp, cutting responses such as yours? By the way, I would rather be in the company of people who spend all day dribbling and eating chunky Crayola crayons, than some gimp who thinks that the moon landing was fake, and the WTC were brought down with explosives.

52 Greg, You used to love your country. But not anymore. Yes, you hate "Bush", and that's your God-given American right. I don't take that away from you. But that hatred combined with the neww company you keep is actually turning you into a traitorlib. Accusing your country of routinely massacring people without any proof is traitorous. You should repent of that and apologize to all the men and women who serve in the armed forces for that slanderous remark.

53 I don't know why you guys even acknowledge him (greg). I simply ignore him completely - its quite easy actually.

54 First off, let me begin by saying hi to everyone, so that we can start off on a good note. I usually don't comment on blogs but this particular post caught my eye. I'll give everyone a little background information on me because it relates to this whole discussion. My brother is in the US Army and served in Iraq for a year, he was stationed in Baghdad with the 3rd ID (Infantry Division). He saw fighting and death, but he also saw the happiness on the Iraqi's faces for finally being liberated. He lost a good friend while he was there and another when he came back. He also lost many Iraqi friends that he worked with. It's true, war isn't pretty, and the fight to secure Iraq's new government will have its obstacles, but in no way is there any justification for the purposeful killing of innocent civilians, which is what separates us from the terrorists in that we do not commend the killing of innocents. That said, I'm not saying the Marines involved in the Haditha incident are guilty of the death of innocent civilians. That's why I would hope that the media would wait until the investigation is completely over with before they start pointing fingers. The main point is that if the Marines killed innocent people then they need to be dealt with justly, if they did not then that should be the end of the story. It's so frustrating that the only stories to come out of Iraq are almost always negative; our soldiers are doing extraordinary things for the Iraqi people. The Iraqi people themselves deserve praise for the steps they have taken towards a free nation. That is why it gets me so pissed off when people say that all Arabs or all Muslims are bad people, because they most certainly aren't, and with that kind of attitude people are basically saying that what our soldiers are doing for the Iraqi people is a waste of time. Our soldiers (including the coalition forces), the Iraqi people, and the Afghani people need all the support we can give them, instead of telling them that they'll never succeed. It would be nice to see more Americans donating money or time to organizations helping our troops and the people of Iraq and Afghanistan. Americans can sit comfortably in their homes and have their opinions on the wars that are taking place, but the true heroes and the people who are making a difference in this world are the troops and the Iraqi and Afghani people who are preserving, defending, and fighting for freedom in the face of terrorism. Apparently many of us have forgotten that.

55 Them damn Eye-Rackies, they killed their own kids and blamed the Marines so they could collect the $38,000. This is all just a big scam.

56 May I just thank you all for revealing the real face of the US nutcase right. A thread for us all to remember the next time you lost spout about freedom and democracy.

57 I'm not sure I see anything wrong in pre-qualifying your position that *IF* it turns out the allegations are true, the deserve what they get. There doesn't even need to be an actual case to take up that position. I think some clarification is in order on both sides as there seems to be some misunderstanding. If this is a collateral damage issue, enemy combatant issue, human shields, whatever....I hope the investigation shows that an dno charges are brought. If they, in effect, lined up some random household of people and gunned them down, then damn them. I would like to hear what their version of the story is rather than getting it from MSM. We already know what Murthas version is.... Then I would like to know the outcome of the investigation and if an Article 32 hearing is to be held. I'd like to know what is presented at that hearing. *If* there is then a Court Martial, I want to hear the arguments of both sides... Knowing what the Marines version, and the blogoshpere delving into the story, let's those investigators know they better have some rock solid evidence to present. I see this as a way to prevent the miltary from steamrolling these guys in the name of "peace". I hope and want them to be innocent. Until I see rock solid evidence, and not some ex-Marine blowhard with an agenda mouthing off disgracefully in the most Un-American of ways, I will assume they *are* innocent. Should it not turn out that way, screw them. They have dishonor themselves, the fighting men and women, and the people of the US... I believe this is taking so long because the civilians story isn't adding up either....so Murtha can shove it. NCIS better get this right.

58 Khepri, thank you for revealing the real face of the nutcase right. /sarcasm off.

59 All bullshit. Just bullshit. Just like the one the Marines were exonerated of this morning.