August 09, 2005

How we Lost the War on Terror

Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter Here --Sign over the gates of hell in Dante's Inferno.

The key to winning a war, any war, is to convince the other side that there is no hope for success. Killing the enemy or controlling territory are not enough to win, but are only important inasmuch as they send the signal to the enemy that there is no use in fighting--you cannot possibly win.

As long as there is hope, there is will to fight.

[Below: an image from a recent al Qaeda in Afghanistan video distributed on the internet. The man pictured has a British accent and calls on Muslims everywhere to come to Afghanistan and fight the 'lies' of Blair & Bush.]

Are we winning the war against Islamic jihad? No. Let us step back for a moment and assess the situation for a moment.

We have conquered two countries which fomented jihad. We have killed or captured tens of thousands of violent jihadies. We have recruited the vast majority of world governments in fighting against the global jihadi network. Nowhere on earth, today, can the jihadis openly train for war against the United States. Nowhere.

Every battle we have waged we have won. In fact, on paper, the war is over. We have won. Time to go home.

Yet, in spite of the facts on the ground, the jihad is still waged. We have not lost, but we we are not winning either.

The jihad movement is not shrinking. It is growing. It is as if nobody told the jihadis that they were losing. That they do not know that they have been defeated at every turn. That they are unaware that there is no hope for victory in Iraq. That the global caliphate is a pipe dream.

This is exactly what is happening. The jihadis believe they are winning, or, at least, that they can win.

[Below: An image from a recent jihadi propaganda video distributed on the internet. The video claims that it was made in Sweden. The message in the video is clear: we can build bombs in the West with impunity and we will use them against you]

We have won every battle we have waged, yet we are losing the war.

There is one battle which we have lost. It is the most important battle, yet the one least understood. It is the battle which will ultimately decide the war. It is the battle that we have not yet decided to fight. It is the propaganda battle. Westerners have a particular distaste for that word, propaganda. It brings up the bad taste of Joseph Goebbels, or Pravda, or a scene from 1984. Propaganda, in our minds, smacks of the untrue. A lie spun for public consumption. Instead, we prefer to call the propaganda war winning the hearts and minds of the people.

In our minds, propaganda and truth are at opposite ends of the moral spectrum. Truth is objective. Truth is fact. Truth is good. Propaganda is subjective. Propaganda is a lie. Propaganda is bad.

The truth, we believe, will open the eyes of the enemy. The truth will set them free.

Unfortunately for us, our faith in objective truth, working on its own, is misplaced. Truth will not open the eyes of the enemy. It can't.

[Below: an image from a recent Army of Ansar al-Sunnah video distributed on the internet showing the dog tags of Marine sniper Cpl. Jeffrey A. Boskovich. The body of Cpl. Boskovich was also shown in the video. The propaganda message is that the jihadis are winning the war]

Before I continue, let me say that I am not a post-modernist. I am not arguing that, from a metaphysical standpoint, there is no such thing as objective truth. I do believe that there is such a thing as objective truth.

What I am arguing is that the truth, on its own, has never had the ability to win over the hearts and minds of people.

If I may misquote Paul for a moment here,

How, then, can they recognize truth which they have a propensity to disbelieve? And how can they believe in a truth which they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
Propaganda, in my mind, is simply a form of communication which is purposeful. It is not about lying, rather, it is about using communication to convince an audience that something is true.

That propaganda has been used in the past to try and convince an audience of a falsehood is not the fault of propaganda. Propaganda is a medium. It is neutral. It can be used for good or ill.

On all fronts we fight the terrorists, except for the most crucial front: the propaganda front.

[Below: an image from a recent jihadi propaganda video distributed on the internet showing two children preparing to becom terrorist-martyrs in retalliation for the killing of Muslim children around the world by Christians-Zionists]

If we wish to win the hearts and minds of the jihadi-terrorists that we are fighting then we must win the propaganda battle. We must set a purpose to our media. They are an essential asset to winning the war. Without them, we will lose.

But the most important way in which we are losing the propaganda war has nothing to do with the MSM. The jihadi holed up in a Tikrit safe house does not read the NY Times. They don't care about Geraldo. They've never heard of Bryan Williams.

Americans may be demoralized by negative media messages on CNN, but the jihadis won't.

The reason they have hope is because of an informal media network. The reason they have hope is the internet.

Imagine you are a 'fence-sitter', as many like to call your potential jihadi. You believe America is an occupying force, they are raping your women, they have humiliated yet another Muslim country with their swift defeat of Iraq, they have murdered thousands of civilians in Fallujah--you believe all of this to be true because this is what you see on TV and how the facts on the ground are spun in the Islamic and the extreme-leftist media, if you were subjected to messages from al Jazeera and al Aribiya on a daily basis you would likely have this perception, too. You believe it is just to fight the Americans.

You would like to fight. But is it worth it?

At the local cafe you watch a video of the latest 'operation' by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's al Qaeda in Iraq. The video is of poor visual quality, because it has been copied from the internet, but it inspires you. Here is the evidence you need. Fighting the Zionist-Crusader forces has purpose. You can win.

Don't downplay this scenario. It happens much more than most of us would like to admit. There is something reassuring in assuming that terrorists are madmen with no rationality. So, we set aside the disturbing thought that maybe the terrorists we fight are rational people who have goals larger than killing the infidel. That maybe they fight for a purpose other than anarchy. That maybe they fight because they believe they can win.

[Below: an image from a recent al Qaeda in Afghanistan video distributed on the internet of Osama bin Laden's #2 man, Ayman al Zawahiri warning the West of new attacks and offering a truce to those that would pull out of Muslim countries]

Our enemy understands the propaganda war, and they are winning it. As friend of The Jawa Report, Evan Kohlmann, of Global Terror Alert and the Counterterrorism blog, recently remarked to the Washington Post:

Zarqawi is a new generation. The people around him are in their twenties. They view the media differently. The original al Qaeda are hiding in the mountains, not a technologically very well-equipped place. Iraq is an urban combat zone. Technology is a big part of that. I don't know how to distinguish the Internet now from the military campaign in general in Iraq.
Speaking of the Nick Berg beheading video being uploaded to the internet, Evan continues,
It was...the 9/11 of jihad on the Internet -- momentous for them and momentous for us.
As Evan has said in the past, Zarqawi became a rock star. As disgusting as it may seem to our sensibilities, the analogy is apt. For whatever missives the jihadi culture may have about the tactics of al Qaeda in Iraq, Zarqawi is a super-star. He is a hero worshipped by hundreds of thousands around the world for standing up to the Americans. For showing them that they are not invincible. His penchant for cutting off the heads of his captives, whenever you find a jihadi who believes this is wrong, is dismissed as a character flaw. Like the drug addiction of your favorite rock star.

[Below: an image from a recent jihadi propaganda video distributed on the internet. The video glorified the 7/7 London terrorist bombings, juxtaposing the images of the dead and mourning in London with terrorist-martyrs and images of dead Muslims around the world]

More important than the messenger, who will change from time to time as this or that pop-star terrorist is killed or driven to the point of seclusion, are the messages being sent by the jihadi propagandists through the medium of the internet. The most recent edition of al Qaeda's online magazine confirmed the fact that the jihadis understand there is a propaganda battle going on:

In an essay aimed broadly at the Muslim world, the magazine claimed the 7th-century Koran as a useful blueprint for today's wired warriors in Iraq, calling its story of the prophet Muhammad's pitch to the people of Mecca "a very good example of how to conduct an information battle with the infidels."

Battles can be won in Iraq but then ultimately lost if they are not on the Internet. "The aim is not to execute an operation, which is followed by complete silence, but telling the reason why it was executed," the magazine advised. "It is a must that we give this field what it deserves. . . . How many battles has this nation lost because of the lack of information?"

The story being told by the jihadis is this one: The Americans are the mightiest nation in the world, this we admit. Yet the mightiest nation in the world cannot subdue the warriors of God. We, the warriors of God, are slowly killing them and their proxy armies down. In the end, we will win.

The reason this story is being told is because we have allowed it to be told. We, the Western world, are so committed to the idea that objective truth will win out in the end that we cannot fathom any one believing the story. Further, our commitment to the notion of free-speech has become so absolute that many of our fellow Westerners believe that our enemies have a right to tell their story.

[Below: an image from an al Qaeda in Iraq video released on the internet showing the identification of the murdered Egyptian ambassador to Iraq Ihab el-Sherif.]

This is an odd conception of a right. For some reason many of us are more attached to the right of our enemies to speak than we are to the right of our enemies to live. Killing the jihadis is ok, but censoring them? That is barbaric.

If we wish to win the war on jihadi terrorism then we must not only offer a different story for public consumption, but we must also kill the competing story. Let us try to win the hearts and minds of the Islamic world, but let us not do so with blind faith in our own rightness and in the power of truth.

A certain portion of the Islamic world would be genuinely moved by stories out of Iraq that reflect the compassion of our soldiers, their heroism in protecting innocent life, and the lengths to which we have gone to rebuild that country. This is an important part of the propaganda effort we must wage. If the MSM does not wish to help us win this war then they should be forced to. Yes, as I have proposed from day one on this site, I am proposing some amount of censorship--and more--the spreading of a message of despair for our enemies and of hope to our allies.

The American owned media is American. If their commitment to some made-up sense of ethics is greater than their commitment to the cause of America, well then, we know where there priorities lay. If they do not wish to help us win this war, then let them practice their journalistic ethics somewhere else.

However, no matter what we do or say, the 'fence-sitter' will always be inclined to believe that we are the enemy. If we cannot win their love, let us settle for second-best and at least earn their fear.

The Japanese and German armies did not surrender because they loved us, they surrendered because they feared us and they realized that there was no hope of winning.

[Below: an image from a jihadi website showing President Bush as Nick Berg, shortly before his gruesome murder]

People are generally not inclined to fight for losing causes. I would suggest that many of our friends on the Left that do not wish us to continue the fight in Iraq do so not because they think we are wrong and not because they want us to lose, but because they think we cannot win. The truth is, they are right in their sentiments.

War is not like a football game where you play an opposing team even if you know you are going to lose. Wars are not fought for the sport of it. In war, you either play to win or you don't play at all. Hence, wars that cannot be won are wars that are not worth fighting.

The jihadi understands this in his own way. He fights because he thinks there is a chance of winning. If it was a lost cause you might get the odd-man-out depressive-psychotic terrorist, but the vast majority of them would stay home. Some terrorism and jihadi activity, yes. But certainly there would be little organized resistance.

So, can we win the propaganda battle if we decide to fight it. ABSOLUTELY.

The propaganda war is not only winnable, but at least when it comes to killing the messages of hope our enemies send to their base, the war is easily winnable, will kill no one, and can be won with limited damage to our normal peace-time commitment to freedom of expression.

[Below: an image released by The Army of Ansar al-Islam on the internet of murdered security consultant in Iraq, Bilprasad "Binkumar" Gurung, a Nepalese national]

Note that I said limited damage to freedom of expression. The community of nations will have to agree that the expression of jihadi sentiment must be quashed, but there is no need to exceed those boundaries. We should allow legitimate dissent, but dissent's legitimacy has always been circumscribed by the conditions of the times.

It was one thing to advocate a pro-Germany and anti-Soviet foreign policy on Dec. 6th, 1941. It was quite another to advocate that same position a week later.

We have the tools presently available to shut down every single jihadi message board, website, and distribution network out there. The information networks of the global jihad are well known to hundreds of civilian terrorism experts who follow such things. The servers used by the jihadis are often located right here in North America, and if not in North America, they are invariably located in Europe. It would not be a hard thing to simply shut each and every one of them down. Not hard at all.

In fact, should the U.S. government wish to actually win the war on terror I would find it an interesting and rewarding career change if I was given the tools and legal go ahead to begin hacking said servers. I know of at least a dozen other people, starting with Aaron over at Internet Hagganah, who would probably jump at the opportunity to make a few bucks shutting down the propaganda arm of the global jiahadi network.

[Below: a screenshot of al Qaeda's website shortly after it was hacked]

teamzusa.jpg

The CIA, FBI, State Department, or Department of Defense could do all of this---easily. But if they wished to keep their hands clean of the dirty work of censoring the jihadis, why not set up a system of privateering.

As many of you may know, privateers were the legal equivalent of pirates in ages past. The privateers were businessmen armed with ships and legal grants of recognition from their home country to plunder the booty of the enemy on the open seas. The line between privateer and pirate was often a thin one, and many of the most famous privateers of the 17th and 18th century were later hanged as pirates for their excesses.

The pirate and the privateer could only be distinguished by the ends of their endeavors and the legal grants given to them. Both plundered ships for financial gain, but the privateer did so with the backing of their country and was seen as part of an overall war strategy. Pirates were hanged. Privateers were given titles of nobility.

[Below: TeamZ USA strikes again, taking down another al Qaeda website]

If hackers are our modern pirates, why not turn their mischief to the common good? A hacker is bad when they shut down my site. A hacker is good when they shut down the site of the enemies of the United States. Given the proper reward structure and immunity from prosecution, hackers could turn their skills toward winning this war.

Another option would be to do this covertly. Hire a large team of hackers on government salary, get them to shut down the jihadi sites, but don't tell any one. That is a fine option, too.

Either way, I disagree that the internet is too decentralized to crack down on jihadi propaganda distribution. The vast majority of jihadi messages are given at a few dozen websites. Further, when new websites are opened the jihadis must have a way of finding them. They do so through e-mail lists and other well-known forums that spread the message as to where to go to find the latest propaganda. Yes, if you shut them down more will spring up, but that is more of a question of how committed are we to winning the propaganda war rather than a question of the feasibility of the exercise.

Further, we do not need to shut down every site with a jihadi message. The goal is to slow the spread of the message to a minimum, not necessarily to end it altogether. The fewer fence-sitters who have hope in winning, the better.

In the end, we will not know if we can win the propaganda war until we begin to fight it. To this point, we have been unwilling to fight the jihadis with all of our available resources. We have been willing to kill them at every turn, but not in censoring them.

If we wish to win this war, and we can win it, then we must use the vast technological advantages at our country's disposal. This includes the advantage we have in producing media messages and the advantage we have in producing creative minds with the technological ability to wreak electronic havoc on our enemies.

It is said that war in the modern age is total war. Total war is war waged with all available resources a nation has to offer. Because we have been so succesful on the physical battlefield, we have been lulled in to believing that the war on terror will not need to be total war. That something less than the full commitment of our nations resources will suffice to win it.

It is true that our enemies cannot hope to win on the open battlefield. Thus, we do not need to engage in total war in the way our grandfathers did in WWII. In that war, the physical capacity of our entire nation was needed to win. This war will not need that level of commitment. We may need some small adjustments to troop levels---up or down, I'll let the experts decide that--but we will not need anything like a WWII level of national war production.

But we will need more of a commitment to winning the battle of ideas. A much greater commitment. The battle of ideas will not be won on its own. The truth of Western liberalism over Islamic fascism is not a self-evident truth. It needs a messenger and a purposive commitment on the part of our government. That commitment must be total, and include a commitment to defeating propaganda messages sent by our enemies.

We are presently losing this war. We can win. But only if we are willing to fight it.

UPDATE 8/10: John Hawkins has an interesting post on how the terrorists cannot win in Iraq and how all war is hell. Very good and important points about sticking with Iraq. Read it. However, it begs the point of the larger war on terror-islamic jihad: can that be won. It can, but it is still in the air if it will. We may not lose, but not losing is not the same as winning.

Ping, John.

Posted by: Rusty at 04:34 PM | Comments (49) | Add Comment
Post contains 3255 words, total size 23 kb.

1 Oh yeah there is a battle all right a short sighted press is fighting for the enemy right now.

Posted by: Howie at August 09, 2005 03:37 PM (D3+20)

2 I haven't seen "Weapons of Mass Deception" yet, but I think it tries to say that the U.S. is fighting unfairly with our hugely superior propoganda methods. Basically saying that we're evil for employing information warfare tactics. I am gonna sit down and watch it tonight, if I can sit through the entire thing. The book Information Warfare and Security speaks of how much info warfare we used the first time in Iraq. Constantly dropping leaflets from planes, basic supplies for civilians, and the constant message that there's no use in fighting because they can't win. I don't know if these tactics simply aren't being used now or if we aren't being told of their use. I find it hard to believe that the U.S. wouldn't use info warfare very heavily, we know it's effective.

Posted by: tyler at August 09, 2005 03:39 PM (Y9Lwb)

3 We are using info warfare, but it is the kind of info warfare we waged 15 years ago. Times have changed, tactics must too.

Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at August 09, 2005 03:46 PM (JQjhA)

4 What our leaders failed to comprehend was the fifth column of non-Islamic traitors we have in the US. These people have been facilitated by the media just as they were during the Vietnam War. Most people find it hard to believe that there are a large number of people in the US who want their country to lose to the Islamists. Not because of their love for Islam, but their hate for Bush. What they are too stupid to understand is the implication of a unilateral withdrawal from Iraq. I predicted two years ago that the Islamists could mount an insurgency in Britain and France and am glad to see that British intelligence now agrees with my assessment. The people of Europe have been disarmed and would be at the complete mercy of well trained and motivated jihadis. I have little doubt that the Islamists could succeed if they had a way of being resupplied. That, I believe, is the only thing holding them back. Incidently, we are letting the same people into the US. They are from such countries as Somalia, Lebanon, Egypt, Eritria, Ethiopia, and the Sudan. Almost all these men have military training and know how to handle small arms and explosives. They are very dangerous, and would be suplemented by more who are coming across our southern border undetected. This is another reason that we must get control of our borders. With most of our military overseas, I can see why the jihadis might be tempted to hit us hard, and I believe that is just what they are going to do. And soon. I hope you are prepared, Rusty.

Posted by: jesusland joe at August 09, 2005 03:55 PM (DDXXI)

5 The CIA for some reason is not allowed to shut down Jihadi supporting groups like CBS,ABC,NBC,CNN and such toilet rags as the New York Times. Shame. I would be happy if they just started offing editors or reporters who support the Jihadis. The UK is deporting the filth yet we still allow them to plot and act against us right here in Brooklyn. Death to the Jihadi and all of it's supporters. Where ever they may hide.

Posted by: Filthy Allah at August 09, 2005 03:56 PM (5ceWd)

6 Rusty: On a slightly more somber note (if that's even possible) the South became convinced they couldn't win by the combination of Sherman's March to the Sea, and the appalling losses Grant was willing to take on the battlefield without batting an eye as he sought repeatedly to outflank Lee. The seminal event was the Burning of Atlanta, which convinced a sufficient number of Copperhead leaning northerners that we could win. The bottom line here is that there's nothing like leveling with the American people. There's a grand old tradition of politicians asking people for their vote. What we need here is a President willing to ask people for their willing sacrifice. "D" or "R" just doesn't matter.

Posted by: Demosophist at August 09, 2005 04:20 PM (IbWE6)

7 Rusty: Oh yeah, I also wanted to say that this post is an absolute home frickin' run! Way to go dude!

Posted by: Demosophist at August 09, 2005 04:24 PM (IbWE6)

8 I agree. Shut the websites down. Tell the ISP that if they host another jihai site, then the ISP is shut down. Throw in a little monetary fine if they persist. We are at war, and I imagine that it's going to escalate to a nastier level before long. It's time the government started acting like we're at war. Wartime censorship is nothing new. We should also be monitoring every Saudi-funded mosque in the country, and deporting any "religious leader" who advocates for jihad or for harm against the US, our allies, or non muslims.

Posted by: Scott in CA at August 09, 2005 04:30 PM (5sKx5)

9 Funny..I always thought a "battle" was between two visible armies, usually with distinct uniforms and identifiable markings. You can't have a fair fight with this bunch of cowardly pussies. More fool them if they believe in the koran and it's lies as well as that 72 virgins crap. No free woman would ever want to sleep with one of these greasy perverts.

Posted by: Jester at August 09, 2005 04:32 PM (2FYdV)

10 Funny..I always thought a "battle" was between two visible armies, usually with distinct uniforms and identifiable markings. You can't have a fair fight with this bunch of cowardly pussies. More fool them if they believe in the koran and its lies as well as that 72 virgins crap. No free woman would ever want to sleep with one of these greasy perverts.

Posted by: Jester at August 09, 2005 04:32 PM (2FYdV)

11 Can the war of ideas be won with virtiually the entire Entrenched Media cheerleading for the other side?

Posted by: traderrob at August 09, 2005 04:47 PM (3al54)

12 Dr. Rusty I'm with you man! We have much the same views on this war. Now how do we get the government to engage the enemy is this war of ideology. We must show the world that Islamofascism is doomed to failure just like Nazism, Communism, and Fascisim and many others that do not recognize the universal truth of the free will of men and women. I've probably said this here before would a military commaner ever allow the enemy to gain air superiority over the battlefield? Hell NO! Essentially we have allowed the enemy free run of CyberSpace in this war of ideas. The LL and the MSM are off in some self-flagellation of self pitty and are in theory and practice "rooting" for the enemy to the detriment of the American people. The American taxpayer is funding the US Military to provide a level playing field in the global economy for the likes of IBM, Intel, Cisco, Covad, MS, Novel, AMD, ATT, and other IT giants to make a profit for their shareholders. The least they could do in return is to disable the blocking and filtering of the free flow of info and ideas on the Net, the Blogos, cell phones, and text paging - Yo the Mad Mullahs of Iran and the Chinese who are the real enemy in this war. These tryannical regimes will melt away like the Wicked Witch of the East did in the Wizard of OZ under the intense scrunity of the free world. The power of "Great Lie" to control the masses, fades when the truth is known. Follow the links in this related post re the Pirates of the Barbary Coast and the GWOT. Also follow the links to other posts at Dean's World, Winds of Change, Roger L. Simon, and LGF: Pirates and GWOT Link

Posted by: Ron Wright at August 09, 2005 04:58 PM (0XTbN)

13 Rusty - the war of ideas is waged on blogs like this...and plenty of propaganda is sent around that way too. I don't think we have won, but we have not lost yet.

Posted by: Mr. K at August 09, 2005 05:25 PM (21AkZ)

14 I think the various components of the US "left" are too arrogant and chauvinistic to understand that Islam is a threat to them as well as their "enemies", the conservatives and classical liberals. 9-11 knocked that silliness out of some of them, but the lesson is wearing off and the news media is doing all it can to get them to forget. Moslems regard the US "left" as more despicable than the US conservatives. If the left is able to gain ascendancy over the US, they will face an enemy that truly hates them for what they are. I think that the present Jihad is rather half hearted, compared to what we would see then.

Posted by: Phillep at August 09, 2005 05:28 PM (YqSRO)

15 We have conquered two countries which fomented jihad. How can you lie like this Rusty?

Posted by: Professor Peter Von Nostrand at August 09, 2005 06:21 PM (zxWKA)

16 Er, did I miss the part where the Taliban weren't institutionalized jihadis or where Saddam Hussein didn't send checks to jihadi martyrs who murdered Jews in Israel?

Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at August 09, 2005 06:24 PM (JQjhA)

17 By the way... you ARE winning the propaganda battle. How else do you think Bush won re-election? Regarding your comment yesterday that "the right has its crazies under control"... The right's crazies are in the White House! Look at the blogosphere. Dominated by the right. Look at the nightly news. No real explorations of the logic behind the war on terror. Face the fact that I and many others have been pointing out from day 1... military action has created more terrorists than it has killed. It turns moderates into potential suicide bombers and mass killers. Am I excusing the actions of terrorists? Hell no! But if you aren't interested in knowing why terrorism can't be fought the way you want it to be fought then it is you who is blinded by ideology, not me or the left.

Posted by: Professor Peter Von Nostrand at August 09, 2005 06:27 PM (zxWKA)

18 On the contrary, you are so far to the Left that you cannot distinguishh the center. Bush is a center-rightist, just as Clinton was a center-leftist. I also understand that my ideology distorts my world view. I do not claim that I know what objective truth is, only my perception of it. Can you say the same?

Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at August 09, 2005 06:32 PM (JQjhA)

19 Er, did I miss the part where the Taliban weren't institutionalized jihadis or where Saddam Hussein didn't send checks to jihadi martyrs who murdered Jews in Israel? Re: the Taliban, you are correct. Re: Saddam Hussein... Jesus H. Christ, Rusty. If you are going to be so dishonest as to suggest that Saddam freaking Hussein was at all interested in "fomenting jihad" then there is just no hope for you. Hussein had been acknowledged by a multitude of scholars as a predictable realist tyrant. Now you can try to blur the issue and focus on the fact that he was a tyrant, about which there is absolutely no argument. Or, you can focus on my point, which is absolutely rock solid: Hussein was about as far as you could get from a "jihadist" and, like all of the Middle Eastern dictators, supported extremist positions only when politically necessary. You know this to be true, Rusty. I know you, and I know you aren't ignorant of my point. Funny thing... if you carry out the logic of your argument, the U.S. should have gone after Saudi Arabia first.

Posted by: Professor Peter Von Nostrand at August 09, 2005 06:38 PM (zxWKA)

20 I'd like to get in on this, but that post was way too long.

Posted by: Leopold Stotch at August 09, 2005 06:43 PM (VrYbI)

21 Just because Saddam didn't support al Qaeda, does not mean he did not support violent jihad. He did. That is a historical fact. If you can't accept that Hamas, Hezboallah, and Islamic Jihad are, er, jihadi groups, then there really is no room for discussion. Supporting jihad does not necessarily mean supporting all jihadi groups. Syria, for instance, is both a secular government and also a big-time fomenter of jihad--but it is jihad aimed at Jews.

Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at August 09, 2005 06:45 PM (JQjhA)

22 On the contrary, you are so far to the Left that you cannot distinguishh the center. Bush is a center-rightist, just as Clinton was a center-leftist. Sorry. But regarding foreign policy it is fairly ludicrous to argue that Bush is "center-rightist"... and I find this vague referencing of labels to be a bit silly in the first place... (go ahead and say I don't know what the word "silly" means like a pompous ass) I also understand that my ideology distorts my world view. I do not claim that I know what objective truth is, only my perception of it. Can you say the same? Uh... take a look at our two blogs Rusty. Among the two, which do you think would be considered more reasonable by scholars we both know? Look in the mirror. You are one of the right wing extremists. I acknowledge being far to the left, but I think it is just as plain as day obvious that I am far more committed to reasonable and rational approaches to evidence and policy. Dude, you called for the bombing of Mecca. Please.

Posted by: Professor Peter Von Nostrand at August 09, 2005 06:47 PM (zxWKA)

23 Just because Saddam didn't support al Qaeda, does not mean he did not support violent jihad. He did. That is a historical fact. If you can't accept that Hamas, Hezboallah, and Islamic Jihad are, er, jihadi groups, then there really is no room for discussion. And this is enough of you to support invading Iraq as the second major policy decision in the war on terror. The sad thing is you know my point, you just refuse to acknowledge it. Even funnier, I'm not asserting anything that a large number of mainstream analysts would argue. You're way out on the right, Rusty. Come back to sanity.

Posted by: Professor Peter Von Nostrand at August 09, 2005 06:52 PM (zxWKA)

24 Extremist? Well, er, ok. I'm not sure what the hell you mean by that. I'm certainly not a 'right-wing' extremist, but I may be an extreme patriot. And I say fuck off to any one who doesn't want our country to win its wars. This is war we are talking about, not sholarly research. Save your scolarly research for the peer reviewed journals.

Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at August 09, 2005 06:54 PM (JQjhA)

25 Don't say I was lying, then, when clearly I wasn't. I did not know what your larger point was embedded in your diatribe as it was. My post is not about whether we should have invaded Iraq. The historical fact is that we DID. The time for that discussion is past. The question now, is how do we win?

Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at August 09, 2005 07:12 PM (JQjhA)

26 I just popped a zit on my back, and thus call him Mohammed. His brains were white and tinted with blood. allah akbar!

Posted by: kstumpf at August 09, 2005 07:38 PM (Kv4B9)

27 I wish to join the anti-jihadi jihad! Please someone teach me to track and hack jihadi websites.

Posted by: kstumpf at August 09, 2005 07:40 PM (Kv4B9)

28 Professor Peter Von Nostrand, Read my post above and check your frame of reference with others. You may find your frame of reference re Islamofascism is a bit skewed. The 2nd generation folks in London were on course to blow themselves up before 9/11, Afganistan, Iraq, Madrid, and London. The Islamofascists (AQ and federation of other jihadists) declared war on us in the earlier 90's. It was only on 9/11 did we tend to take notice. You can fault all the previous administrations including Bush I back to the 60s both R and D that have followed a strategic foreign policy in the ME of one of stability regardless of the tryanny and repressiveness of the governments we chose to support. GWB has broken from this past policy and has announced to the world the US will no longer tolerate these represive regimes in the ME. We will no longer actively or passively support them against the will of their people. We are on the right course and we have nothing to apologize for regardless of what the Euro Weenies may whine. If she hasn't already done so, standby, Dr. Rice in the very near future will take her little black coat and her sexy black boots to Saudi for a come to "Jesus meeting" and discuss the facts of life with the House of Saud. They have no military to protect them. We can drive a hard bargain right now for real governmental reform and equal rights for women. If they are relunctant to cooperate Dr. Rice can let those boots start walkin: Animated Link Audio -These boots are made for walkin We don't care about their deal with the Devil (Wahhabies) to fund their religious madrassahs all over the world in exchange for allowing the Sauds to continue to "protect" Medina and Mecca and plunder the oil resources of the Arabian desert. They are scared "shitless" of a revolt led by their prodogigal son OBL. The one thing that OBL has gotten right is the House of Saud are the biggest hypocrites in the World of Islam.

Posted by: Ron Wright at August 09, 2005 07:56 PM (6Aikz)

29 Sorry folks but the animated link bombed. Try this one: Animated Link or http://www.nancysinatra.com/intro.html

Posted by: Ron Wright at August 09, 2005 08:05 PM (6Aikz)

30 Okay, zit joke aside, 9/11 seems to have created some illusionary transition zone, which we supposedly crossed. It is painted as if we had no cares in the world and no security in airports. Just pause, and think back, I for instance remember having my camera bag and ALICE pack searched in Seattle before boarding a flight in 1997. The Jihad has been on since the 1940's when Israel was established as a Jewish homeland. Evil never dies. It just restablished itself back in the cradle of civilization, and just in time to try and turn the clock back to some wet dream about the return of Saladin or some silly fantasy. (Iwould like some blue cheese dressing on my Saladin, to go with my baby back ribs please.Don't forget the bacon bits. The real ones, not that soy protien crap Mohammed reccomends.) Get off the Iraqi dick please! This Jihad is crap!The Jihad was in place in 72 in Munich, It was in place in the skies above Lockerbie, It was there in 83 when my brothers we killed in Beirut. At least in Beirut, Christians are fighting back without shame! I don't know if Rusty or Dick, er I mean Peter are really so called intellectuals, but an over vocabulated diatribe, does not a dialogue make. Circumlocution, yep I know big words, though I may spell them incorrectly some times.

Posted by: kstumpf at August 09, 2005 08:17 PM (Kv4B9)

31 The jihad has been on since the 7th century. The violent one frittered away after WWI, but its back at front and center since 9-11-01. The silent one has been ongoing all along, and is the greater threat.

Posted by: Mr. K at August 09, 2005 08:25 PM (zkVyW)

32 Nostrand has let his perceptions become so twisted that he can't see straight: "Blogosphere is dominated by right," is it, Perfessor? Well explain Technorati ranking the America-hating leftist-promoting KOS two levels above LGF, a fact-based website promoting awareness of the aims, actions and attitudes of Islamo-fascism and its apologists today! *** And IF we want to win the war on propaganda, let's play the biggest trump-card of all: Publicly accept the validity of Islam's Hadith promising the coming/return of the 12th Imam, the Holy Qaim, and publicly broadcast, in Arabic, the news of His Coming in 1260 AH, (May 23, 1844)! By using THEIR sacred traditions in a way which does not denigrate or deny them, we say "They're right, and here is their fulfillment, and the Holy One has come in the Glory of God!" We can catalyze the near-instantaneous conversion by troops, of hundreds of millions of used-to-be-Muslims into Followers of the Light!

Posted by: Karridine at August 09, 2005 08:30 PM (67/h4)

33 By "catalyze", do you mean in a literal sense, including extreme temperatures? and really bright light?

Posted by: kstumpf at August 09, 2005 08:40 PM (Kv4B9)

34 By "catalyze", do you mean in a literal sense, including extreme temperatures? And really bright light?

Posted by: kstumpf at August 09, 2005 08:40 PM (Kv4B9)

35 I would like the good professor to tell us how he would fight the war against terror. Surely he doesn't want to follow the two guys on the left, i.e. Carter and Clinton. They sure as hell failed. The left has always been quick with the critisism and slow with any answers. I'm waiting......

Posted by: jesusland joe at August 09, 2005 08:42 PM (DDXXI)

36 Sorry, man, but hadiths don't carry the weight of Koranic versus. The 'sayings' are more like traditions, and thus are not 'proof' of the illegitemacy of Islam.

Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at August 09, 2005 08:42 PM (JQjhA)

37 I learn new stuff every day I read this blog. Now I have to read up on hadiths.

Posted by: kstumpf at August 09, 2005 09:03 PM (Kv4B9)

38 Don't shut the jihadi sites down. Take them over. Publish our own propaganda and let the potential jihadis think the original owners are still posting.

Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at August 09, 2005 09:38 PM (RHG+K)

39 Rusty. Dude. I almost drank a 44 oz. tank of Mountain Dew just to try and establish some sort of common ground with you... but I just can't do it. When you suggest that Saddam's regime was more committed to fomenting jihad than it was to, say, its own survival, then you have reached the point where you are lying. It is the same sort of lie that the righties have pushed when they suggest that because Al Qaeda cells were operating in northern Iraq, Saddam was behind 9/11. It is pure distortion. Also, stop suggesting the left doesn't support the truth, or that I have to support all American wars in order to be as patriotic as you.

Posted by: Professor Peter Von Nostrand at August 09, 2005 09:49 PM (zxWKA)

40 Here is why we can't win. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165210,00.html

Posted by: kstumpf at August 09, 2005 09:51 PM (Kv4B9)

41 I never ever suggested or alluded to "Saddam's regime was MORE committed to fomenting jihad than it was to, say, its own survival". I'm not sure how you read that in to anything I have written. Please stop using the word 'lie'. I have defendd you from my readers who have accused you of much, much worse. Please do not make me regret that. I have never tried to establish a direct or indirect connection between Saddam and al Qaeda. But, as you know, al Qaeda is A jihadi organization, not THE jihadi organization. There are other jihadi organizations, and these organizations were supported by Saddam.

Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at August 09, 2005 10:02 PM (JQjhA)

42 Rusty, Do you honestly think I care if any of your readers accuse me of "much, much worse"? Honestly dude. Most of these people are stark raving mad, and their opinion means jack squat. It's funny. The reason why I and other lefties blog anonymously is to avoid having to worry about right wing nuts and what they might do. Meanwhile, I suspect your reasoning (and that of much of the anonymous right) is fundamentally different and much more closely related to the offensive nature of your content. Bombing Mecca? Dude, there is no moral justification for that kind of extremism, and you need to own that shit. Anyhow, I calls them as I sees them, and in my non-scholarly journal opinion, your claim that "we have conquered two countries which fomented jihad" rises to the level of a lie. It is meant to suggest something that is false given any sort of commitment to proportionality. Maybe I'm wrong and you just disagree with what the vast majority of analysts believe, but I find it hard to accept that you are really committed to the idea that Saddam was a jihadist (or anything close to it), because almost all the evidence suggests quite the opposite. If anything, he wanted to kill those bastards even more than you do! Which is hard to believe but nevertheless, true. Dude! We (i.e. the same idiots like Rumsfeld who decided to invade Iraq) started supporting the guy precisely because he represented a counterveiling power relative to Islamic extremists! Come on!

Posted by: Professor Peter Von Nostrand at August 09, 2005 11:21 PM (zxWKA)

43 kstumpf: Hadith (Arabic): From MSA: Reports on the sayings and the traditions of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) or what he witnessed and approved are called Hadith. These are the real explanation, interpretation, and the living example of the Prophet (s.a.w.) for teachings of the Qur'an. His sayings are found in books called the Hadith books. Some famous collectors of Hadith are Imam Al-Bukhari, Imam Muslim, Imam An-Nasa'i, Imam Abu Dawood, Imam At-Tirmizi, and Imam Majah. There are many others. The hadith are the written collections of the sunnah* (sacralized traditions), and are interpreted literally, as all debate concerning their veracity was finished over a millennium ago. Now you just have to read up on the Sunnah: # sunnah From MSA: In general, the word Sunnah means habit, practice, customary procedure, or action, norm and usage sanctioned by tradition. In specific, any time the word Sunnah is mentioned, it is to refer to Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.). Here it means his sayings, practices, living habits. The Hadith are reports on the Sunnah. The two major legal sources of jurisprudence in Islam are the Quran and the Sunnah. The Sunnah may confirm what is mentioned in Qur'an, interpret and explain it, specify what is meant by some general verses, limit and restrict the meaning of some verse in it, or may explain something that has been revealed in Qur'an. The Sunnah has a high authority in Islam; and Allah in many places in the Qur'an orders the Muslims to follow the teachings of Prophet Mohammad (s.a.w.).

Posted by: Mad Dog Vinnie at August 09, 2005 11:23 PM (Kr6/f)

44 Meh! Nothing against you Rusty but you have it all wrong. I'm a firm believer in "If you get them by their throat their hearts and minds will follow." Nothing's over til it's over but I'd say that we are winning the propaganda battle as well. ^_~

Posted by: Small Pink Mouse at August 10, 2005 01:01 AM (6krEN)

45 "I have never tried to establish a direct or indirect connection between Saddam and al Qaeda. But, as you know, al Qaeda is A jihadi organization, not THE jihadi organization. There are other jihadi organizations, and these organizations were supported by Saddam." Saddam invades Kuwait in 1990. The US sets up bases in Saudi Arabia, and then kicks Saddam's ass out. The US stays in SA, the muslim holy moley land, and enforces no fly zones and other UN sanctions. Osama, the jihadist, declares jihad against all Americans and other related infidels, because they are in SA, the muslim holy moley lands, kicking secular Saddam's sorry ass. Meanwhile, some of Osama's muj visit Iraq, meet with Saddam's henchmen, for tea. Later, boats explode run into our warship and explode, our embassies are blown up, planes fly into our buildings, and Osama claims credit. Therefore, there is a connection between Saddam and Osama. How about a little post doc work on that, you and cowbytheudders team up?

Posted by: Mr. K at August 10, 2005 05:25 AM (LRec9)

46 "I have never tried to establish a direct or indirect connection between Saddam and al Qaeda. But, as you know, al Qaeda is A jihadi organization, not THE jihadi organization. There are other jihadi organizations, and these organizations were supported by Saddam." Saddam invades Kuwait in 1990. The US sets up bases in Saudi Arabia, and then kicks Saddam's ass out. The US stays in SA, the muslim holy moley land, and enforces no fly zones and other UN sanctions. Osama, the jihadist, declares jihad against all Americans and other related infidels, because they are in SA, the muslim holy moley lands, kicking secular Saddam's sorry ass. Meanwhile, some of Osama's muj visit Iraq, meet with Saddam's henchmen, for tea. Later, boats run into our warship and explode, our embassies are blown up, planes fly into our buildings, and Osama claims credit. Therefore, there is a connection between Saddam and Osama. How about a little post doc work on that, you and cowbytheudders team up?

Posted by: Mr. K at August 10, 2005 05:27 AM (LRec9)

47 What Beth said! Double!

Posted by: jesusland joe at August 10, 2005 10:24 AM (DDXXI)

48 Von Nostril back to your empty blog and shrink.

Posted by: greyrooster at August 10, 2005 04:03 PM (oKjnh)

49 I just watched a documentary on the Gaza Strip called "Death In Gaza". EVERYONE needs to watch this to get an understanding of what is going on in the Arabic world to propigate their hatred of the west. It is available on Netflix. NOTE: This video was supposed to be propaganda against the west. But hearing what is being taught in school and at home and what the little children are taught to say from the time they are old enough to speak, is astonishing.

Posted by: Brad J at August 11, 2005 11:28 AM (Kk4wv)

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