Should we be following the example of the Brits and deporting foreign nationals that support jihad?
says no.
.
, and takes Chapman to task. And
. All four are important essays. Read them all.
What Hobbes meant by that was that while we usually think of war as taking place in a physical location, it is much more accurate to think of war as taking place in a time frame. World War II happened between 1939 - 1945. It was a period of time, not a single location.
It may seem like an unimportant and abstract distinction. What does it matter whether or not a 'state of war' exists everywhere or only in Iraq? But distinctions, even when they are only made by assumption, are absolutely critical to the way we think. The distinction between war and peace is very crucial, because moral actions depend on context. If the context is peace, then moral beings are compelled by conscience to behave in one way. If the context is war, then the same moral being must act in another way.
The war that we are in sets the context by which our actions should be judged acceptable or unacceptable.
Normally, in times of peace, we allow a great deal of dissent. In fact, our tolerance for dissent is one of the hallmarks of Western liberalism. However much we value dissent, though, we never allow absolute dissent. Violent revolution, after all, is a form of political dissent and protest. Even in times of peace we do not tolerate that kind of dissent. In times of war, however, that tolerance must of necessity be much more limited.
Although I love the right to speak and cherish the liberty of the press, such liberty is meaningless without life. All of my rights and liberties are secondary to the need to protect my life. Governments are not founded to protect speech, rather, governments are instituted to protect life.
Free speech is an instrumental value--or it is a means to an end. We want freedom of speech and press because these things are necessary to a functioning democracy. However, a functioning democracy is secondary to some amount of order so that neighbors do not settle disputes on their own--a state of War according to Hobbes and an inconvenient state of Nature according to Locke.
When the secondary value of free speech conflicts with the primary value of protecting life, the secondary must be discarded. We ought not discard such things lightly, but sometimes they must be sacrificed. We do not let the body die to save the limb.
In a state of war, people die. In a state of peace, it is tacitly understood that you can say anything so long as your words are not a "clear and present danger" (See Schenck v. United States, 1919). Holmes' maxim seems to me a simple attempt at putting to words what we all kind of know deep down: only sticks and stones may break your bones, but words sometimes do hurt you.
You cannot say something that will incite someone to kill me. In a state of peace, people aren't normally incited to murder. In fact, yelling fire in a crowded theater rarely yields a riot. However, change the context and the result changes. In a state of war since some amount of anarchy is already present and there is an understanding that it is o.k. to kill, then the likelihood for words to lead to death is greatly multiplied.
The context of war also affects the way that we treat non-citizen guests in our country. In times of peace, we are very tolerant of the kinds of political views that immigrants bring with them. This is why Germany had an active fifth column in the United States known as the German-American Bund. This group worked right up until the start of hostilities between the U.S. and Germany. After the start of the war, though, the group was outlawed. It's leaders, all American citizens, were rounded up and put into internment camps.
What was legal and acceptable behavior changed in a single day. On one day crying heil Hitler was Constitutionally protected speach, on the next it was an act of treason. War does that.
I am not advocating here that we round up American citizens and put them into internment camps. Just as war, in general, sets the overall context of moral action, a specific war sets the specific context of specific moral actions. That is just another way of saying, it was probably the right thing to do in that war, but it does not seem like the right thing to do in this war.
But just because we do not need to go to the lengths that the World War II generation went to, does not mean that we can act as if the war is over there and not here. We are in a state of war. War is not a place, it is a state of being.
The state of war is the medium in which all of our lives are lived. We are the fish, it is the water. All of our actions must be constructed with this in mind. We cannot escape the state of war by somehow denying we are in it. Can the fish suddenly sprout lungs and breathe simply because it does not recognize that his environment is water?
Let's begin by adopting Blair's deportation policies here. If you are a foreign national, who believes in the adoption of sharia law, you are invited to leave. Thanks for the visit, now go home.
.
Presently, U.S. law forbids citizenship being granted to any one who has membership in the Communist Party or any other totalitarian organization. Certainly, most Islamist political movements count as totalitarian, since they seek to replace democratic governance with absolutist Sharia law. Why do we allow foreigners with ties to these Islamists movements in our countries, if the law already excludes them from becoming citizens?
The war we are engaged in is a war of ideas. Why should we tolerate those who espouse the ideas of our enemies?
Such tolerance might be acceptable in a time of peace, when abstract ideas are not presumed to lead to acts of aggression, but in a time of war things change.
We are fighting a war here. Will somebody please remind civil-libertarians about that?
1
The Brits may have to pay for this Islamist's heart surgery:
http://myerskatt.blogspot.com/2005_08_07_myerskatt_archive.html#112377655056924533
Posted by: kitty at August 11, 2005 06:32 PM (uBiDV)
2
They won't be deported just like Atta wasn't. And I predict that some of these people will in fact commit another major act of terror. However, that doesn't change the fact that they should be deported as soon as humanly possible, starting right now!
Posted by: jesusland joe at August 11, 2005 06:35 PM (DDXXI)
3
Kitty,
Bakri was arrested in Lebanon today, sparing the British taxpayers.....
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/111483.php
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at August 11, 2005 06:37 PM (JQjhA)
4
Excellent! Will update my post on KittyLitter.
Posted by: kitty at August 11, 2005 06:49 PM (uBiDV)
5
if these imams are calling for jihad, the death of citizens in the host nation they are living in, than yes, they should be immediatly and without any sort of delay, deported back to any Middle eastern country of their choice...its ridiculous that someone who calls themselves a person who teaches their faith as one of peace and than tells his followers to go out and commit murder in name of their faith should even be given a second chance to stay...out they should go, like the vermin they are
Posted by: THANOS35 at August 11, 2005 06:50 PM (IJ51c)
6
I disagree with deportation. It's expensive and they're free to agitate elsewhere. I envision the renovation of Alcatraz as a new radical Islamist mecca.
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at August 11, 2005 07:43 PM (RHG+K)
7
Rusty, to the contrary, we're WELCOMING radical muslims into the U.S. thanks to the United Nations.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050811/ts_nm/iran_bush_dc
Posted by: Jason Smith at August 11, 2005 07:45 PM (TwSjW)
8
You know, I'm down with deporting foreign nationals that "support jihad" if that makes us safer. Aren't you, after all, basically talking about terrorists?
What I find troubling about your essay is this: Deportation, along with virtually every other policy you have advocated on this site, does not seem to lead to greater security. A multitude of analysts argue we are actually less safe now.
The problem(s) here seems to be the right wing interest in appearing strong or in seeking revenge. 9/11 made lots of Americans want to strike out at someone, and that's understandable. But we should make policy based on rationally expected outcomes, not our desire to get even.
Will deportation keep determined terrorists from striking? Probably not. Our borders are easily trespassed, and Al Qaeda terrorists are very adept at avoiding authority. I won't continue with this here... you get my basic point I'm sure... but consider this:
If it was clearly known that America would have been safer after 9/11
by doing nothing, than by pursuing any of the policies it did following the attacks... what would
you have advocated?
I'm tempted to think that you would have supported current policy anyway. And that's a problem.
Posted by: Professor von Nostrand at August 11, 2005 07:50 PM (zxWKA)
9
how would doing nothing have made us safer from the terrorists from attacking us again, Proffesor???....do you understand the terrorist mind, the Middle Eastern mind???.....these arent just school yard bullies we are dealing with here....you know, school yard bullies will mostly give up on picking on you if you ignore them long enough as they want you to resist, it gives them a rise in their ego's....terrorists and especially the Middle eastern type will see this as you being weak and afraid of them and that you would do anything to make them leave you alone....kidnappings lead to ransoms, bombings lead to blackmail....so, Profesor youre saying that the USA should cower in fear, make payments, give terrorists anything and all they demand, just for peace,eh???....thats the cowards way out and that leads to just making the terrorists braver and wanting to pick on you even more, thats what gets the ego up of the Middle east, doing NOTHING to defend youreself and youre position....if the USA was all like you, Profeesor, we would all either be dead or slaves....youre a real patriot alright, Professor...yea, like Benedict Arnold
Posted by: THANOS35 at August 11, 2005 08:04 PM (IJ51c)
10
Safer by doing nothing? Or safer by being nothing, a deep part of our Jacksonian souls cries for vengance, ruin and American built portable Suns burning over islamobastard warrens. You call for us to destroy our essence and pretend to be French. Professor, profess no more, you do not, will not, know us, speak our language no more.
Posted by: Norden at August 11, 2005 08:10 PM (L6YIl)
11
Deport their American and Freedom loving butts to ANtarctica!
Posted by: William Teach at August 11, 2005 08:25 PM (Pzlrt)
12
Antartica is reserved for oil drilling, Mars for agriculture, Venus for Detuerium mining...
Mecury is available for Professors without a language.
Posted by: Norden at August 11, 2005 08:34 PM (L6YIl)
13
Gets kinda hot on Mercury Professor.
Posted by: jesusland joe at August 11, 2005 09:20 PM (DDXXI)
14
However we deal with the issue, one thing is clear. Our constitution was not meant to be used as a virus, to destroy us from within.
Posted by: Sigmund, Carl and Alfred at August 11, 2005 09:24 PM (dHZc2)
15
"But we should make policy based on rationally expected outcomes, not our desire to get even." - Peter Von Nostrand
Peter. Revenge IS a "rationally expected outcome", unless you believe you are dealing with a people too weak to defend themselves.
Peter. Punishment IS a "rationally expected outcome", unless you believe you are dealing with a people bereft of morality and justice.
Peter. Death IS a "rationally expected outcome", unless you believe you are dealing with a people who value forgiveness above survival.
Our enemies made a mistake on a par with the one made by Imperial Japan in 1941. GIGO. They thought that all Americans were weak, like Peter Von Nostrand. It turns out it wasn't so (though you still seek to increase the ranks of the sheep).
The defeat and utter subjugation of the backward and militant Japanese feudal society was a "rationally expected outcome", which came to pass. We can rationally expect nothing less in dealing with our current enemy. Maybe Mecca should not be made to glow for a thousand years as a reminder to Islam of its transgressions. But it is instructive and beneficial for Muslims to hear it openly discussed.
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at August 11, 2005 09:24 PM (RHG+K)
16
Rigtwing efforts to deport jihadis is useless given the Left's goal of erasing our borders. We really do need to defeat the Leftist enemy within before we can even begin to make a dent on the jihadis.
Posted by: Carlos at August 11, 2005 09:39 PM (8e/V4)
17
We'll shade Mecury,a little, if the islamopigs behave.
Posted by: Norden at August 11, 2005 10:05 PM (L6YIl)
18
It looks like greg won't be missed, because the village has a new idiot now. The sad thing is that he has his own blog, but nobody ever visits it except for me and people who end up there by accident. I only visit to taunt him, but it's all echoes in there, and you can't get around for the cobwebs.
I have a question perfesser; hemp or nylon?
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at August 11, 2005 10:51 PM (0yYS2)
19
It appears that nobody wants to seriously address my hypothetical. Rusty?
Posted by: Professor von Nostrand at August 11, 2005 11:05 PM (zxWKA)
20
Peter, that's the trouble with hypotheticals. If they rely on preposterous assumptions, nobody takes them seriously. And rightly so.
But don't go away mad, here's a helpful tip for your blog. If you're going to invent playmates for yourself to comment with, use more imagination with the handles.
Lots of people know that "Dr. Von Nostrand" was an alias used by the character Kramer on "Seinfeld". If your only comments come from "Art Vandalay", well, geez man, that was the character George's alias. You need to explore a new paradigm. Maybe a comment signed by "Phoebe" or "Joey" would be more believable.
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at August 11, 2005 11:21 PM (RHG+K)
21
"It appears that nobody wants to seriously address my hypothetical. "
I tried to get this loser to debate me several times, but he fled the field without firing a shot, then declared victory when I no longer felt like chasing him. Spill it Rusty, dish us some dirt on this waste of elemental compounds if you know him. I bet he gets picked on by kids at the mall, right?
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at August 11, 2005 11:50 PM (0yYS2)
22
It is interesting what we've discovered in this little exercise:
We've discovered that hypotheticals are lost on the Jawa audience.
We've discovered that Bluto, counter to Rusty's assertion that national security is the primary reason for the state, is far more interested in revenge.
We've learned that Phano doesn't know who Benedict Arnold was.
We've discovered that Improbulus continues to search the Internet far and wide for a friend... in vain...
And we've learned that Norden speaks a language that is yet to be identified.
Hmmm... what else can we discover... certainly not a serious answer to the hypothetical "what would you advocate if doing
nothing would give you more security than doing
something"...
Posted by: Professor Peter Von Nostrand at August 12, 2005 12:13 AM (REz6/)
23
We shouldn't deport them.
We should hang them here.
Publicly.
On every single channel.
Daily.
Posted by: Misha I at August 12, 2005 12:38 AM (IhKPT)
24
Von Nostrand, you pinhead. There's just no other way to put it. You are a stupid, bullheaded person without reading comprehension skills.
I did not say I was interested in revenge for its own sake. The possibility of revenge and retribution is useful for keeping people in line. If they believe their intended victim is too weak or fearful to exact revenge, then they are emboldened. That is a very simple concept.
Next time I respond to one of your natterings, if there is a next time, I'll use the Gunning-Fog index to keep my post at the fourth or fifth grade level, though that's certainly no guarantee you'll understand.
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at August 12, 2005 01:04 AM (RHG+K)
25
Bluto. In other words, you answered the hypothetical by violating the perameters I had set. In other words, you didn't answer it.
Next?
Posted by: Professor Peter Von Nostrand at August 12, 2005 01:08 AM (REz6/)
26
I have to wonder if there is some coordination among the Wormtongues. They seem rather evenly distributed in the news groups critical of the left. I've noticed them showing up after some absurd leftist idiot like Greg gets shredded and retreats. Ever so "reasonable" they are.
"League of Grima", perhaps?
Sauron = Soros?
Posted by: Phillep at August 12, 2005 01:49 AM (zNjIG)
27
"parameters"
That said, von Nostrand is still pompous. Not to mention an "officious prick". Your perameters(sic) are an excercize in, well, stupidity.
"If it was clearly known that America would have been safer after 9/11 by doing nothing, than by pursuing any of the policies it did following the attacks... what would you have advocated?"
Nothing? Should we do
nothing? Doing
nothing is what got us here. So your question was answered before 9/11.
I'll tell you what. Here's a parameter. You stay in your little do
nothing circle and we'll do our best to save your sorry ass.
Posted by: Oyster at August 12, 2005 07:23 AM (YudAC)
Posted by: Oyster at August 12, 2005 07:25 AM (YudAC)
29
If it was clearly known that America would have been safer after 9/11 by doing nothing, than by pursuing any of the policies it did following the attacks... what would you have advocated?
Hypothetically speaking, I would have supported sitting around and doing nothing. But, as has been pointed out, this hypothetical is implausible to the point of being dismissable.
Hypothetically speaking, the response to 9/11 that would have rendered us most safe from further attacks would have been to use our psychic mind ray satellites to fry the brains of every anti-America, terrorism-nclined individual on the planet. And I'd have advocated that, too.
I'm tempted to think that you would have supported current policy anyway.
How charitable of you. You're free to believe that, and we're free to reiprocally believe that too many of you on the Left would continue advocating doing nothing even when it's proven that current policy, if imperfect, is still better than that nothing.
Posted by: Brian B at August 12, 2005 09:51 AM (CouWh)
30
Professor Pete, tell ya what i know for a fact...youre arrogant and ignorant, and we know those two go hand in hand for leftists like you who when you know youve lost the arguement, you move the goal posts....nice try, loser...now go pick up youre toys
Posted by: THANOS35 at August 12, 2005 09:54 AM (IJ51c)
31
1. Every Saudi-funded mosque in the US needs to be monitored. 2. Every Islamic center and Islamic Studies program needs to be monitored. 3. The FBI needs to go to every mosque and make it clear that incitement to violence will not be tolerated. 4. Radical "religious" leaders who preach violence must be deported. If naturalized citizens, they should be warned to stop and if they don't, citizenship should be revoked so that they can be deported. 5. No religious visas should be issued to citizens of any country which does not reciprocate. 6. Radical mosques hosting preachers of violence need to be shut down and closed. Change the law if needed. Freedom of speech does not mean license to call for our destructoin. 7. If it takes a presidential Declaration of Emergency to do this, then do it.
Posted by: Scott in CA at August 12, 2005 10:33 AM (WzxC8)
32
"I disagree with deportation. It's expensive and they're free to agitate elsewhere. I envision the renovation of Alcatraz as a new radical Islamist mecca."
Screw that! My tax dollars are already paying for gourmet meals, at club GITMO, for these f**kers. If they want to meet their "god", I'm eager to help them. A bullet in the brain is affordable, and suprisingly effective.
Posted by: Princess Kimberley at August 12, 2005 11:30 AM (8sXP/)
33
I like it that the prof thinks the best way to get a bully to stop is by continuing to pay his extortion. I hope the guy doesn't have any kids.
Posted by: Defense Guy at August 12, 2005 11:31 AM (jPCiN)
34
Thanks for answering Brian. I don't like hypotheticals very often either, but in this case I thought it might be useful.
Oyster, anyone who thinks that "nothing" was done about terrorism before 9/11 is simply ignorant, unless by "nothing" you mean that no countries were invaded counter to the will of 90% of world opinion. Aside from that... you couldn't just answer the question... you couldn't bring yourself to do that, could you.
Of course doing nothing isn't an option. The point of the question was to force you to come to grips with the fact that many of you advocate policy based on revenge and the need to look strong, rather than the rational goal of producing more national security, which may require much more subtlety and a hell of a lot more creativity than that.
The question should have also forced some of you to realize that those who argue against the war in Iraq are actually acting in a patriotic manner. We, after all, don't want to be blown up either, and are just as interested in national security (perhaps more so) than you are.
Funny thing, you guys are already on to tarring the left for your own invented hypothetical nuclear explosion that hasn't happened yet! It's as if you're admitting that your approach
will fail, and that it is likely to produce what would be the single greatest calamity in American history.
And you have the nerve to suggest that the anti-war position is unpatriotic. Shame.
Posted by: Professor Peter Von Nostrand at August 12, 2005 12:05 PM (REz6/)
35
Oyster, anyone who thinks that "nothing" was done about terrorism before 9/11 is simply ignorant,
I suppose a more accurate response by Oyster would have meen "nothing effective". Your mileage may vary.
The point of the question was to force you to come to grips with the fact that many of you advocate policy based on revenge and the need to look strong, rather than the rational goal of producing more national security,
Actually, I think the argument's also been put forth in this thread that the one actually is a means to the other.
which may require much more subtlety and a hell of a lot more creativity than that.
Or may not, on a case by case basis. I'm inclined to think the two approaches are not as mutually exclusive as you think.
The question should have also forced some of you to realize that those who argue against the war in Iraq are actually acting in a patriotic manner.
Some are, some aren't. For your assertion to be true, it would also have to be true that ALL those opposing the ware share the same motivations, goals, and act to accomplish those goals in the same manner. I submit that the Antiwar movement is not nearly that homogenous. Some members of it fit your best idealistic description. Some fit our worst demonized description. many fall somewhere in the middle, on both lines of the patriotism boundary.
Funny thing, you guys are already on to tarring the left for your own invented hypothetical nuclear explosion that hasn't happened yet! It's as if you're admitting that your approach will fail, and that it is likely to produce what would be the single greatest calamity in American history.
Rather, we're preparing for the worst, regardless of whether we believe it will happen or not.
Realistically speaking, There's no guarantee nothing like this will ever happen, regardless of the course of actions we take. Even if we're right, it's possible we're not right enough. But that can be said of everyone, no?
And you have the nerve to suggest that the anti-war position is unpatriotic. Shame.
Again, the use of the definitive article is the weak point in that admonition.
Posted by: Brian B at August 12, 2005 12:57 PM (CouWh)
36
Nostrand: Again you put words in everyone's mouths because you disagree with a few. And add to that the fact that you do it in an "I'm morally superior" manner simply causes others to reject you. Your question was shortsighted and senseless. Period. To answer it in the manner "you" see fit, or at all, is to lend it legitimacy. You can take my statement that we did nothing as literally as you want, if it makes your argument fit better. 'kay?
Take every bit of text on the web and replace the words Muslim and Islam with Christian and Christianity and take your current stance. I think you'll find "you" would have very few friends. Your lefty friends would flock to our side in a stampede. They eschew Christian morals and don't want them "pushed" on them, and yet, they wish to allow those within their midst who will push harder even stricter and more harmful dogmas on them. What hypocrisy.
To answer Rusty's question which, is very legitimate: How do I feel about deporting these goons? I think if they can make a law that makes it okay to deport them then it should be enough to lock them up. If it's
cost some are worried about, they're costing us money anyway, here or abroad. And they're no less a threat somewhere else.
Posted by: Oyster at August 12, 2005 01:14 PM (fl6E1)
37
Oyster. I'm sorry. But my position
is morally superior, no matter whether your top priority is national security, or reducing violence elsewhere.
"Take every bit of text on the web and replace the words Muslim and Islam with Christian and Christianity and take your current stance. I think you'll find "you" would have very few friends."
What on earth are you talking about? Nevermind. Don't answer.
I'm out.
Posted by: Professor von Nostrand at August 13, 2005 01:55 PM (JVdjp)
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