March 01, 2006

Can Islam be Reformed?

A dual between Andrew McCarthy (No, Islam can't be reformed) and Mansoor Ijaz (Yes, Islam can be reformed). Start at the top and read the whole thing. (via Robert)

Update: Ground State has some good commentary here on the futility of non-Muslims becoming theologans. By their fruits, ye shall know them. Best part--since I have recently been accused of being a 'supporter of genocide' (no, I won't provide the links to the website that hurled those accusations):

To move quickly through the absurd parts, you are grossly misrepresenting my position. I never said "Islam is evil." I don't ask that you agree with such a position, because it is not my position.

My position is that Islam is dangerous. It has many very desirable qualities, but it has many troubling aspects.....

With due respect, it is simply inane for you to suggest that I have said Islam is "irretrievably evil" such that the only "rational course" that follows from my viewpoint is that "we kill all Muslims." I won't say anything more about that than that it is beneath you.

I do worry that Islam is structurally difficult to reform. That is precisely why I am reluctantly on the negative end of this debate, and why I stressed, from the start, that the words of the Koran are Allah's own. That doesn't mean Islam requires "the destruction of all what the world has evolved into[.]" But it does pose a problem for reformers such as yourself, which is what we're talking about. That is, if you don't have an interpretation of what the troublesome teachings mean that is more compelling than what the militants are offering, you will have a hard time convincing Muslims that the militants are perverting doctrine--which is what you must do to marginalize and defeat them.

Posted by: Rusty at 04:05 PM | Comments (9) | Add Comment
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1 Rusty End of the day, you and I both know McCarthy has no real say or influence on the matter. Can islam be reformed? Who knows. But I know it will be an issue solely between muslim and muslim - that's just the way it is. We both know plenty of muslims - which is why we have some degree (albeit often limited) of optimisum that it can be done - whether it is or not - who knows.

Posted by: hondo at March 01, 2006 04:44 PM (fyKFC)

2 The same question could have been asked about christians 300 years ago. Will they stop burning witches ? Will they stop baptizing converts and then killing them ?Will they begin to believe that the earth revolves around the sun ? Muslims just need a few centuries to catch up with the 21st century.

Posted by: john ryan at March 01, 2006 05:55 PM (TcoRJ)

3 I get Muslims sometimes as patients. In general they are hard wired to think in a way that will never be American. For example, a man like myself can not be in the room performing an exam, it needs to be a women. Saying hello to their women, even if she is a patient, gets you the evil eye from anyone within their family. It is a religious issue. First, Muslims are loyal to their ummah, and Koran, not the United States of America, and how we do things in this country. My experience may be limited, but it is always the same with these people. Stop allowing them in this country now. They are the only religious group that are in the news every few days getting busted for crimes against the U.S. It is only a religion of peace until they get their numbers up. Then watch how the change as a group. Dont't believe me, look at Israel, Spain, France, Germany, and Britan

Posted by: Leatherneck at March 01, 2006 05:56 PM (D2g/j)

4 John, Indeed. But two comments. 1) There is a core doctrine issue. Christianity, to me, seems pacifist at its core. No stories of Jesus killing anybody and the only stoning stories are when Jesus tries to stop it. Therefore as Christians became literate they wished to 'return' to this pacifism that they read about. Fundamentalist Christianity, like Buddhism, seems (from the outside looking in) to be pacifist. (which is also problematic, but a different problematic) 2) The world is a lot smaller now and weapons much more danterous. Can we wait for Islam to reform itself from the inside?

Posted by: Rusty at March 01, 2006 06:29 PM (JQjhA)

5 If Leatherneck and I were to have our way with the influx of the Islamic pukes, this problem fades from the US in a few decades. If (and I hope I'm not speaking out of turn for IM) Im and I were to have our way in dealing with this infection, they would be afraid to come to America. Decades from now, the historians would be referring to their extinction in the past tense for obvious reasons. This has no reference to the Muslims who've not abandoned sanity and understand what it means to have respect for the "others" in the world. Rusty, you are a well mannered soul but radical anything, that opts to destroy us all, Islam aside, needs to be erased. The sooner the better.

Posted by: forest hunter at March 01, 2006 08:19 PM (Fq6zR)

6 "Can Islam be reformed"?.........No!

Posted by: jesusland joe at March 01, 2006 10:53 PM (rUyw4)

7 I was speaking to reformation JJ. The blowflies have the secondary responsibility.

Posted by: forest hunter at March 01, 2006 11:25 PM (Fq6zR)

8 Unless the 12th (or whatever number he is) Imam pops up soon, like Iran's president thinks he will, and threatens all the jihadists with hell and brimstone if they don't stop I don't think we'll be seeing any sort of reformation. And in response to the, "Muslims just need a few centuries to catch up with the 21st century." comment: With the exponential growth of knowledge and information as we have seen in recent history, then they should have already been much farther along than just a few like the woman in the MEMRI link above. We have the power to push them along. Rather the media and other democratic governments do. Their constant negativity, capitulation to threats and refusal to call a spade a spade only perpetuates the mindset of these thugs. If the MSM would highlight those within Islam who speak out against the violence and if France would grow some balls and if Germany would quit releasing murderers and, and, and .... we might see a change in the tide. You'll never see a transcript of Dr. Wafa Sultan's debate on the front page of the NYT (or even on the back pages). You'll never see CNN show film footage of Iraqis working with people of other countries and religions rebuilding a school in Ramadi. You'll never hear talking heads use the word "terrorist" to describe bin Laden. These things are so obvious any first grader could figure it out. Yet we still have those with the biggest microphones and tallest soapboxes who act as apologists, calling America the terrorists and using some bizarre logic to explain away behavior which there is no excuse for. Have we created the terrorists? Not to the degree some say. Just because these people act now doesn't mean they wouldn't have later. We could stop and pull out of the Middle East and fewer people would die. They would simply go more quietly into dhimmitude. No thanx.

Posted by: Oyster at March 02, 2006 09:25 AM (zCI3+)

9 Islam can be easily reformed by killing every muslim who refuses to renounce islam and/or convert to Christianity or Buddhism.

Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at March 04, 2006 04:34 PM (0yYS2)

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