1 The judge still approved his move to the US. Apparently the real concern of the UK was that he was going to be put in a cage in Gitmo. His 'lawyers' are appealing.

2 When TSHTF, it's going to be fun, because it'll be open season on muslims, liberals, and lawyers, and rightfully so.

3 I get so tired of seeing these termites immediately go on offense whenever they get called on their murderous behavior. One thing islamofacists are good at is lying and playing the aggrieved party. I was listening to Hugh Hewitt and he had a guy from CAIR (Council on American Islamic Relations) expressing shock that anyone would suspect a muslim of doing anything anti-social.. how they were all just patriotic Americans.. blah, blah, blah. Then he tried to slip it by that Hitler's atrocities were carried out in the name of Christianity. At that point Hewitt put the skids to this guy's rambling. The point is, this guy was so smooth. He had an answer for EVERYTHING. Afterward, people were calling in and saying, "What about so and so? He's on trial for terrorist activities and wasn't he part of your group (CAIR)??" This happened over and over and the CAIR spokeshole never would cop to the fact that they have terrorists in their ranks. I guess the saddest part is there is no shortage of self-loathing lawyers who can't wait to defend these pukes.

4 Judge Dick is a dick.

1 A refutation without condescension would have been preferred. In reviewing my comments, I believe it is a viable summary to say Pat Robertson thinks this way. He cites the Bible and we know that his life is guided by the Bible. He cautions that future leaders should follow this biblical warning. "Sharon "was dividing God's land and I would say woe unto any prime minister of Israel who takes a similar course to appease the EU (European Union), the United Nations, or the United States of America," Robertson said. The rest of my comments were meant to reflect that it is human behavior to rejoice when our opponents have trouble and that it is just as common on one side as another. There was no intent to support evildoers of any hue. I regret that my comments were not clear.

2 I don't do condescension, just sarcasm. Or snark, if you will. That's one problem with the internets, you can't hear the voices in my head.

3 Anyone who takes one word from Pat Robertson's mouth seriously is about as big an idiot as Robertson himself. I used to watch the 700 Club when I was a Christian, and even back then in my brainwashed state I knew he was as full of shit as a Christmas goose.

4 The rest of my comments were meant to reflect that it is human behavior to rejoice when our opponents have trouble and that it is just as common on one side as another. Why we should not simply resign ourselves to such "human behavior": Proverbs 24:17-18 17 Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when he stumbles, do not let your heart rejoice, 18 or the LORD will see and disapprove and turn his wrath away from him.

5 Pat Robertson is not representative of Christians, and does not speak for anyone but himself. That the media reports his stupidity is more a statement on the media than on Christianity.

6 Just an aside from the Peanut Gallery: Anyone who takes one word from Pat Robertson's mouth seriously is about as big an idiot as Robertson himself. I used to watch the 700 Club when I was a Christian, and even back then in my brainwashed state I knew he was as full of shit as a Christmas goose. The difference between Left and Right. We denounce our looneys. Yet everyone wants a photo-op with theirs (e.g. Crazy Al Sharpton)

7 A refutation without condescension would have been preferred. Funny, I thought the comments being refuted were condescending.

8 So is everybody on this board saying it WASN'T the will of God?

9 Well this might be splitting hairs... but do I think it was the will of god. Specifically Loki, the Norse god of mischief and the deity Libs call to when they pray for an American defeat.

10 Right. And Pat Robertson wasn't chosen to head up the RNC either.

11 Pat Robertson is the head of the Republican National Committee?

12 I wonder what Robertson or Osama would have to say about the structural failure at Mecca which killed a bunch of hajjis?

13 Ah! I'm with IM on this one.

14 JJ - You and I are having a communication breakdown, I think ;-) I was implying that the dems gleefully chose Dean as their spokesman and embrace all the looney comments he spews, yet scream about republicans by quoting the likes of Robertson. The difference is that we didn't choose Robertson to head up the RNC. Sorry. I'm expecting people to read my mind.

15 Oyster, I got it. (only because I had to read your mind though)

16 Damn, Oyster, I get no sarcasm these days. I'm uptight and out of sight about this damn dry weather. Christian or no, you need to pray for some rain in Texas. It is bone dry.

17 Pat Robertson had better spend all his time praying that he dies peacefully in his bed from no apparent cause. What's the saying? "Payback is Hell"

18 Yeah, I hope the weather gets damper, JJ. Maybe Filthy can sacrifice a goat or something for you. I'll say a prayer.

1 Okay... So what does this guy think we were aiming at doing? Staying there forever? Turning Iraq into a U.S. colony? We haven't tried something like that since the Philipines, and look at the fine result we got there. My guess is that we'll maintain permanent military bases in Iraq, but that doesn't necessarily entail keeping the country under foot--take a look at Gitmo. I wonder if the Sunni preference for civilian targets should diqualify them as insurgents. The Viet Cong, if I recall correctly, learned rather quickly that civvies make better targets than Marines. The difference between the V.C. and the Sunnis doesn't appear to be their targets or their methods, but the quality of their operatives. The V.C. had a plan and used some cleverness in making it work, manipulating the press, intimidating collaborators, etc. The Sunnis seem more interested in just blowing stuff up for the glory of it.

2 Over and over, the left drones on that we must withdraw. Then, as we prepare to withdraw, they crow, "AHA! Proof that the war is a failure!" How can anyone take such children seriously?

3 A tomato/tomatoe argument - or who's on first ... Does it matter once you realize the motive is for both entertainment and ulterior purposes?

4 >>>Over and over, the left drones on that we must withdraw. Then, as we prepare to withdraw, they crow, "AHA! Proof that the war is a failure!" bwahaha! exactly. Liberalism is such a childish game.

5 Liberalism is one form of a mental disorder that prevents people from accepting reality. I don't know what causes it, except that it seems to be predominant among right-brained people, i.e. creative types.

6 IM: You've nailed it, it's those artsy-fartsy creative Hollywood types we gotta watch. Except for maybe Charlton Heston and Ron Silver. They're OK.

7 Heston and Silver are more balanced, as is evinced by the fact that they don't end up on the pages of the National Enquirer. John Wayne's Hollywood is long dead, and the place is now inhabited almost solely by braindead morons. It's like one of those zombie movies, with the idiot liberals trying to eat everyone's brain while wearing their best Vera Wang.

8 I like Silver, an unusual character in the role of conservative spokesman...supporter of gay rights, stem cell research, gun control and universal health, while being a past supporter of Reagan's missile defense and current terrorism efforts. Certainly pragmatic, he said once, "In the words of Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping, 'I don't care if the cat is black or white as long as it catches mice.'"

9 I'm going to take the editorial at it's word. The guy argues the US should stay as long as necessary with necessary force. So confusing him with advocates of withdrawal as some here do is idiotic and dishonest. I think the idea that there is a lot that can explode in Iraq and that we are the only ones that can keep a lid on it is fairly reasonable. Hopefully it's wrong and the withdrawal is the right course along with the pullback in Afghanistan and ending aid for both countries, but I think the issue is subject to debate. If it's a mistake a lot of sacrifice is for nothing. Or even worse, it was for making the world more unstable.

10 That is about the funniest thing I've read in a while! Thanks for this post, Jawa!

1 Hell, they've already made a movie which, I'm sure, will be praised by the Hollywood left as being worthy of some award or another.

2 I hope they didn't think they were going to gain credibility by associating themselves with the "Jesus Seminar." I thought they were debunked as loonies a LONG time ago.

3 Why dose that idiot judge think we clebrate christmas for? he needs a lightning bolt in his rear end

4 Thanks for reminding me why I'm not a Leftwinger anymore.

5 15 minutes.

6 If these people had any balls they would make a film about why Allah doesn't exist. They know they can pick on Christians, but I will guarantee you they won't take the Muslims on. As a matter of fact, I remember something about Muslims filing a criminal complaint against a writer in Italy who criticized Islam. Do Christians not have the same rights in the EU as Muslims?

7 Religion in general is losing in the EU (unless it involves crystals and chants). Islam has a temporary luxury - the Euros are scared of them. Terror does work with some people.

8 Yeah, let's see them make a movie about the life and whacky antics of Moooohammed. Sean Penn would make a good Mohammed.

9 >>>"the Euros are scared of them. Terror does work with some people." I read somewhere some Hollyweirdo pretty much admitting as much.

10 >>>"the Euros are scared of them. Terror does work with some people." I read somewhere some Hollyweirdo pretty much admitting as much.

11 Who cares what a silly little man in Italy does?

12 Ah crap, here we go again. Okay, let me, as somwhat of a scholar on religion generally, and Christianity specifically, state the following: There has never been a living person named Jesus Christ. This is not a name, but rather a title, conferred after the man, Yeshua bin Yusef, (Joshua, son of Joseph) had died and been made a legend many years after his death. Jesus is the Anglicized form of the Latin Iesu, pronounced ee-yeh-soo, (Latin had no hard j sound, but rather used the letter i instead, with a pronunciation more like a y), which itself was a form of the Greek Isus (ee-soos), which means the good, and can be demonstrated to be etymologically related to an archaic word for good, i-yah, which in context is interchangable with holy, and from which the name Yahweh is derived, which basically means he who is good. The ancient Hebrews called their god Yahweh, but since it was forbidden to speak this name, he was called El, which means in this context, he who is. The ancient Indo-Europeans had a god called Issus, who was a general purpose god and was called by the ancient Celts the good striker. The name Christ is a derivative of the Greek chrysos, which means gold, or golden, and which is itself derived from the Semitic word khrus. Incidentally, the name of the Egyptian goddess Isis is also related to the name Jesus by the same means. So, it is quite easy to prove that no person named Jesus Christ ever lived, but that doesn't really settle the issue of the legendary Jesus compared to the real Yeshua bin Yusef, who obviously lived and made quite an impression on the Pharisees and, unfortunately for him, the Romans too, who had no sense of humor regarding anyone calling themselves the king of anything, and especially not regarding someone who was rumored to claim that he was the son of a god, as the Emperor was the foremost deity in any territory controlled by the Romans, and suffered no rivals. The whole Jesus legend is taken from parts of other legends and traditions, such as divine lineage as practiced by the Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians, and from other religions such as the cult of Mitra, who was coincidentally born in a stable on midwinter to human parents, though being of divine lineage himself. There is even anecdotal evidence that Yeshua may have been exposed to Zoroastrianism, Mitraism, Buddhism, and other religions during his "missing years", from the age of 12 until his reappearance at 33, shortly before his death. In conclusion, the truth has been lost for so long, and the legend has not grown less in the telling and down through the generations, but has rather been embellished by successive adherents to the faith, that not even all Christians can agree on specific details of the birth, life, death, or even divinity of Jesus, who was not even universally considered divine until the Council of Nicea, called by the Emperor Constantine to unify the faith so that he could control the faithful and consolidate his hold on a declining empire. So believe what you want to believe, because one legend is as valid as another, since none of them have anything more to do with reality than the others. As the prophets Bill and Ted said, "Be excellent to one another", and don't get bent out of shape over the details.

13 Maximus, this little rant of yours can be made right with the sacrament of reconciliation (confession). But shit son, we got to get your but into Mass!

14 C'mon Brad, you read it on the internet, it must be true, right?

15 <spelling flames are lame> athy, athier, athiest </spelling flames are lame>

16 Maximus is the smartest man alive. You should listen to him.

17 Maximus doesn't realize that God had all this information as well, and, being so fond of literary allusion as to have included it in His Creation, instructed Gabriel to forward the name "Jesus" to Mary. (It is speculated that it may also be because the fifth level of Hell, which was designated for keyboard philosophers fond of popping out steamers like "So, it is quite easy to prove that no person named Jesus Christ ever lived", was looking a little underpopulated.)

18 The name Jesus comes from the Greek Iesous, from the Hebrew Yeshua or Yesua, the word meaning "Yahweh is Salvation." The name was given to Mary via God the Father from the angel Gabriel and signifies the redemptive act of love, the salvation of man from sin through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross as part of the New covenant. The Greek word Christos means "annointed," from "chriein." It was used as a proper name after the death of death of Jesus, particulary in the writing of St. Paul )Phil. 1:1-2). Its use by St. Paul declared the apostles' belief and affirmation of the divinity if Jesus, wxplicit in Phil. 2:5-11. However, the word Kyrios in Greek is a translation of the Aramaic equivalent of "the prophesied king." Thus, Jesus fulfilled in His Incarnation the promise made to Abraham, as given in the geneology found in the first chapter of St. Matthew's Gospel. The fact that a Savior would one day be born was common knowledge in the Midle East and surrounding territories. There are references throughout the Old Testament. Thus, other and false religions were easily able to add some elements of truth to their ultimately made-up fantasies. Buddhism, etc., make no claims to their founders being divine. Christianity alone has the boldness (and authority) to make this claim. Pax to all.

19 Greetings YBP, and thanks for the informative comment. I'm too stupid to make an intelligent post on this subject, so I'm enjoying reading other's ideas. Gracias!

20 [Oyster's brain explodes]

21 L. Ron Hubbard never said anything about Scientology being a joke - and I doubt that a man would devote one half of his life, working 12-14 hour days for all that time, just for the sake of a "joke". Not everyone thinks that Scientology is a "scam". I've been a Scientologist for over 20 years and I'm quite happy and proud to be one. So is my wife. We have a great life, good income, two happy kids and we have a great relationship, and our practice of Scientology is no small part of this. Neither do the 8 million Scientologists worldwide think it a joke, nor do the Governors and Senators that have praised our volunteer efforts. The thousands of Katrina survivors we helped (www.volunteerministers.org), delivering food and water to them and helping them get to safety, don't think we're a joke either. In fact, the only people who think we're a joke are self-ascribed Internet pundits who've never as much as read one single Scientology book in their lifetime.

22 ...And, before I get flamed for being off-topic (though my religion was part of the original post), let me contribute this: There's an excellent book called "In Search Of the Historical Jesus", and another called "Who Was Jesus" - both excellent references. In the first one, I read that archeology has gone as far as proving the existence of Pontius Pilates - but that the existence of Jesus himself is still not proven. Then there's the shroud of Turin - but many have doubted its authenticity. My two cents, should anyone care for change.

23 [Oyster's brain explodes] Thereby disproving the Big Bang Theory. There has to be something to bang before you can have a big bang. You can't get something from nothing. Haha, now everyone can call me stupid, and frankly, I deserve it.

24 (hondo's brain tunes out - good time to take down some of those Christmas lights)

25 HAHAHAHA! Why does it not surprise me that 'tinfoil' Greg practices a religion based on 'murdered space aliens' possessing the living? How's Xenu?

26 Greg has two kids? Crap! I have three kids, I wonder if there is a chance they will ever meet. Nah, my kids are rednecks!

27 Hi Dave, What you're referring to is not Scientology practice, but the stolen documents of case research that Hubbard did in the 1960s. It's out--of-context distorted crap taken from transcripts of sessions exploring the possibility of past lives. Get over it. You don't learn about someone's religion by reading hate-sites.

28 Jesusland Joe: Et tu Carlos???

29 You guys can believe what you want, but prophesied kings and deliverers are no less common than goats in the ME, and the Hebrews were no more or less afflicted with such prophesies than any other Semitic culture, they just happened to find a willing audience in the Romans to perpetuate their myths. The Romans were extrememly accepting of others' religions and myths, and readily incorporated them into their own, often combining names and aspects of mythological beings to create new ones, such as when they combined Egyptian, Zoroastrian, and Hebrew aspects and traditions in the myth of Jesus, who was no less a creation of Paul, et al. As I said before, the hard facts are long lost, and everyone who wishes to believe will find what they want, regardless of the truth, and personally, as long as people don't go around murdering and oppressing others in the name of myth they follow, I don't really care, just don't expect me to buy it.

30 Did the Scientologists tell you, to tell me that? How the hell would you know what I'm referring to you've not paid enough money to "achieve the level" of the super duper top secret OTIII religious instruction! What with their attempts to filter the internet results on members machines, and the "creator" being a science fiction writer, I think I'll take those documents at face value. XENU LIVES!

31 To Dave: 1) Take a deep breath, man. Relax. 2) I'm not sure what you mean by the "Scientologists" telling me that. I AM them. (They is me. I am it. Whatever.) 3) You're perpetuating a stupid Internet urban legend. You can walk into any Scientology organization and ask to buy a taped lecture called "Ron's Journal 1967" and you get to hear what you're referring to. Some of this stuff is also in the book "Have You Lived Before This Life?", and you can also find much of it in lectures and seminars of that period. It's research into the concept of past lives. It's not such a big deal. Someone's been screwing with your head, and you've bought into it hook, line and sinker. Incidentally, you don't achieve OT3 by paying - you achieve it through religious counseling, good deeds and dedicated introspection. But enough about that! Back to the topic. I'm glad someone brought up Mithraism into this. We're days away from "the day of the 3 Kings" (for hispanic catholics) - did any of you know that the "3 kings" were actually most likely Zoroastrian Magi, pursuing the birth of Mithras? The similarities between the Birth of Christ story and the Mithras legend are astounding.

32 Hey, this is to all you folks. And sorry for my ignorance. But it seems I've walked into a room of "I hate Islam" club - is this correct? Anyway, my question is, how come you hate Islam? I know very little about Muslims, but when I volunteered in Indonesia this year (tsunami), I met a ton of really cool, decent muslims. Sure, I realize that some a&&ho1es have done some real nasty things in the name of Islam, but, hold on, haven't other a&&ho1es done bad things in the name of Christianity as well? It seems to me that it'd be better to be "anti-a&&ho1e" instead of anti one religion or the other.

33 >>>You guys can believe what you want, but prophesied kings and deliverers are no less common than goats in the ME, LoL!

34 >>>Jesusland Joe: Et tu Carlos??? esqueeze me?

35 perhaps you and your fellow nutballs, could get together and sue (most likely) or educate all of the masses on wikipedia that have been duped by a "urban legend" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu Funny thing is, the discussion page is the only one on wikipedia I've ever seen that starts with: This is not a joke article. Check the references if you want verification. This is a genuine religious belief. " Despite your claim of it being an urban legend, it has been used as a source, and cited as being one of the best articles.

36 The entire collection of idiots on this board should collectively be given "IDIOT OF THE MILLENIUM AWARD".

37 Norris, bug off. Nobody is forcing you to come here.

38 JJ Gotta admit - a lotta people really got into this "Idiot Of The Year" topic!

39 The thing that gets me is how this is such a juicy topic, ripe with potential, yet so many idiots still manage to go completely off the damn map.

40 It got a lot of traffic because it comes up in a search of google news on Luigi Cascioli. It would be nice if there was a possibility of critical discussion of the lack of evidence for the existence of a historical Jesus in the US. However, as you even see in this forum, such a topic brings up such a viseral negative reaction, and such cemented ignorance that it effectively closes the discussion down. People posit Muslims as the opposite of Christians, when they are a part of the same tradition. Do they disagree? Oh, with bloodshed! There's no conflict quite as bloody as internecine warfare. The fact that there may be a committed athiest somewhere convinced that there was an historical Jesus, only points to the pervasiveness of the frauds perpetrated by the church and the lack of real dialog on the subject. Not that it matters...

41 A fellow attorney here in Houston wrote a book a few years ago entitled Faith on Trial, a superbly documented legal analysis...to show that almost every event surrounding the fundamental testimony of the Gospels can be verified today. Perhaps Pam can join the defense team in that silly Italian trial.

42 Well Dave, I guess then you must know more than I do about my own religion. Funny thing, considering I've been a practicing Scientologist for twenty-two years, and all you know about it is what you've read on Wikipedia. Hmmm... (Another case of "I read it on the Net, it MUST be true!) Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -- Albert Einstein If the world should blow itself up, the last audible voice would be that of an expert saying it can't be done. --Peter Ustinov I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance. --Socra+es (Can you *believe* the posting interface objected to my use of Socra+es as a word??)

43 "Thereby disproving the Big Bang Theory. [...]" ??? WTF, JJ? I'll let that one slide, but I'm curious ... Who pissed in your cornflakes?

44 durga must be reading a different koran than the one entitled "The Holy Koran", for that is the only way he can say that Christianity and Islam have anything in common. They are as different as night and day. Christianity is 600 years older than Islam. Its method of salvation is based on grace (i.e. it is the free gift of God to those who believe), while in Islam you have a set of proscribed duties (making the Hajj, praying five times a day, etc) and if those are accomplished then you might get into paradise, which is also completely different from the Christian idea of Heaven. Oh, and then there is that whole jihad thing. Jesus didn't spend his time massacring those who disagreed with him, nor did enjoin his followers to force others to convert by the sword. The Koran specifically states that muslims are to fight with the infidels until they are subdued (see Sura 9) or the infidels pay the tax.

45 L. Ron Hubbard never said anything about Scientology being a joke - and I doubt that a man would devote one half of his life, working 12-14 hour days for all that time, just for the sake of a "joke". No, but all that cash, lavish attention, drugs, and nubile young girls might induce a dishonest man to run such a scam.

46 Durga, Christianity was a new faith based on the teachings of a man who had travelled far and probably been influenced by Buddhism and Zoroastrianism, as well as his own native Judaism of course. Islam was begun by a man who had never travelled much, but who had been exposed to Judaism and Arab paganism, and who tried to make himself a prophet in the style of those in the OT. The only similarities between Christianity and Islam is that both try to be successors to Judaism, but neither really is because Judaism is still around and is distinct from both. The reason muslims hate Jews so much is because muslims want to take the Jews place as the "chosen people", a self-given appelation which means nothing, and has even been abandoned by all but the most orthodox of Jews and fundamentalist Christians. Christianity learned to accept the Jews only in this century, and given that islam is always behind the times, it may be another hundred years before muslims do too, but first, muslims have to stop hating themselves before they can stop hating others.

47 Tick Master: Actually, I believe durga refers to Abraham's two sons Isaac and Ishmael. In Abraham's time, God told him that he would be the father of a great nation through his son. Of course at the time Abraham was in his 80s and he and his wife had never had children, so Abraham was a bit skeptical. Since his wife thoght she coudln't have kids, she arranged for Abraham to have a child with their maid. He was born and named Ishmael. 14 years later, Sarah (Abraham's wife) became pregnant and gave birth to Isaac. Since Ishmael was illegitimate, Abraham pushed him to the side and Isaac was proclaimed the rightful heir through which a great nation would appear. Long story short, Ishmael is the founder of the Muslim religion and Isaac is the father of the Jewish nation. I'm telling this off the top of my head, so if I've got any of my specifics twisted, please let me know, but that's the gist of it and a whole lot of the reason for the animosity between the Jews and Muslims. Or between the Muslims and everyone else.

48 Y'all wanna hear something crazy from me? Well, it will sound crazy, considering I'm an avoiwed atheist; I think the teachings of Jesus, (whether he was real or imaginary is irrelevant), are a damn good set of guideposts by which to live one's life. But, (You saw this coming, didn't you?), unfortunately, most people who call themselves Christians have about as much to do with the actual teachings of Jesus as does the average satanist. This isn't to say that there aren't some damn fine people among the Christians, because there are and plenty, but hypocrisy and ignorance are all too common among the flock, and they give the rest a bad name. I left Christianity, but I didn't forget the lessons taught me by people who truly believed in doing what was right by all, and not just on Sunday morning when they dress up and play pretend at being good people, but all the time. One of my most vivid memories from childhood comes from when I was no more than three or four years old, when I was sick and my dad's old '55 Chevy truck wouldn't start because the six volt electrical system wouldn't work in the cold. He called people from our church to find someone with a four wheel drive truck or jeep to get us down the snowy mountain roads, but none of them had time to help save a sick child in the middle of a freezing cold night, so he called an old drunk who was roundly despised by all the good god-fearing people of the community, and all the old man said was "I'll be right there." He drove us over fifty miles to the hospital and stayed with us until I was released, then drove us home, and wouldn't even accept gas money from my dad. It was about that time that our churchgoing dropped off sharply, and the good people of the community saw fit to look down their noses at us. The church can go to hell for all I care, and every Bible-thumping sonofabitch with it, because all the churches and Bibles in the world can't make someone be what they're not, they only let them pretend to be better than everyone else.

49 Oyster, Sorry, what I meant to convey is that there has to be something to bang for there to be a "big bang theory". And since you obviously had a brain to begin with then there could be a bang. It was a bad joke, obviously. I apologize.

50 And some people call this an echo chamber? If all of us got together for a few beers, a fight would break out before the 3rd round. BTW: I bought a copy of Dianetics just so I could throw it in the toilet this am. Do Scientologists issue FatwaÂ’s?

51 What I meant was that, mistaken about each other or not, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all a part of what is properly identified as Abramic monotheism. Each lays claim to following the true directives of the God of Abraham. Islam claims Jesus as a prophet and his mother Mary as a sacred figure. Durga is the name of a Hindu Warrior Deity. I am outside of this system we are discussing. But as I pointed out, the harshest, bloodiest conflicts are internecine, between brothers. I personally think that this is because it takes so much energy to de-humanize and internally alienate people who are so very very like you. I friend of mine was brought up in a Jewish family, but later studied Arabic, and confessed to me that the languages were far more alike than they were different. These are brothers who are hating and killing each other century after century. It is horrifying to watch. Durga Bhakti

52 Regardless of the fact that there have been so many wars fought over religious beliefs, they all boil down to social engineering and control. And there are other secular social engineering experiments which have proven to be far more deadly to those subjected to them. Honestly, as far as I can see in this day and age though, Islamic fundamentalism has proven to be the most dangerous to human rights, equality and individualism among the religious ones. And I'm not talking about what's written in the books, but what is actually widely accepted and practiced. Hearing about a Christian man gouging his wife's eye out for dishonoring him is an aberration. Hearing about a Muslim man doing it is daily news. Any religion or ideology that mandates certain behavior in everything from which hand to wipe your ass with to what size stick is proper to beat one's wife with under threat of any manner of repercussion is bad news. Any deviation does not necessarily just get one sent back to re-education camps or "Koran school". Depending on the infraction, one can easily get permanent disfiguration or death. Justice is arbitrary, inconsistant and often the punishment no where near fits the "crime". No matter what the Koran says, these are behaviors we regularly observe from followers of Islam. Islam's God is not even remotely like Christianity's God, nor anything like the Creator mentioned by our own forefathers. Nor is Mohammed even close to Jesus (I don't care who really existed or not). Mohammed had sex with a 9 year old and no one blinks an eye. Dan Brown writes a book that Jesus might have been married to a full grown woman and everyone screams about the hypocrisy of the Christians. Give me a break. Finding similarities between the religions is just a silly game and an exercize in moral relativism. When there are differences so vast in the practices, it kind of negates those minor likenesses or what derived from what. [/rant] Sorry. I get angry sometimes.

53 Damn good rant, Oyster!

54 Damn Oyster, I like it when you get riled up. Durga did make a couple of valid points though, just don't read too much into them.

55 Greg: You are a dumb shit. So's your wife for believing you.

56 To greyrooster: Thanks for that constructive criticism. It's nice to know there's people like you in the world, making everyone's day a little brighter.

57 To Robert Crawford: No, but all that cash, lavish attention, drugs, and nubile young girls might induce a dishonest man to run such a scam. Robert, while it's interesting in some way to disagree with things that don't exist and never happened, it would be much more useful to discuss things related to reality. You might be referring to Mick Jagger's life, but not to Hubbard's. http://www.lrh.org

58 Interesting! the Bacofoil king, and the master of the loony tune website URL, criticized me for believing something I read on the Internet. If you know "so much more" about your faith Greg, why don't you go and correct them, instead of letting them propagate "urban legends" as you call it? you do realize anyone can edit a article at wikipedia? you might hit a snag: they require sources for reputing/verifying facts. I'm guessing you can't refute the Xenu/Xemu/whatever article.

59 Hey Greg, don't let them get you down, they're only ignorant unbelievers. The head of cabbage in my refrigerator tells me so.

60 Greg... After you pay around $400,000, you will learn that all these engrams you have been working on these last decades are actually body thetans (space alien spirits clustering to you): it's a higher knowledge level where you learn what really engrams are. Many former scientologists that have reached OT3 and beyond confirm this. The unfortunate things, it seems there is no end to get rid of all these body thetans, you will have to go through auditing until you run out of money, or you die, or you wake up to the scam. Many have woken up, they feel freer than ever nowayds. Of course, you "church" won't tell you that, you bring in the dough. Conveniently for the "church", we are just suppressive, so you will discard this information we bring to you, and keep on feeding this sinister organization. I suggest you read www.xenu.net, but cognitive dissonance being what it is, it is unlikely you will accept that you gave 20 years of your life into an organization consider the following a religious scipture: "If attacked on some vulnerable point by anyone or anything or any organization, always find or manufacture enough threat against them to cause them to sue for peace." L. Ron Hubbard (only one out of so many sinister policies)...

61 Well, now, isn't this coming back around to the point? And it's so easy for it to spread out like a wildfire. But back to the point... People will believe what it best suits them to believe. Some beliefs, in spite of how fantastical they seem to others, work very well for a great number of their followers. I see no problem with that. We seem to get into trouble with each other when each one insists that they have the single monopoly on the truth and the others better catch on quick or either face the consequences of the unseen divine, or better yet the wrath of the true believers. Oyster said "Any religion or ideology that mandates certain behavior in everything..." which reminded me of something I find problematic, fundamentalism, the insistence on a single literal interpretation of a text. The question of "historical accuracy" feeds right back into this debate. There are certain believers that use historical accuracy hand in hand with fundamentalism to insist on a single truth... for everyone. One god, one text, one way. I think at some point someone is bound to say "Prove it" and then we get back to the news story that has sparked this debate. When I read Ray's post to Greg, it seems very similar to Luigi Cascioli's perspective on the Catholic Church.

62 Hubbard: "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion." http://www.whyaretheydead.net/krasel/aff_sm_930414.pdf Ps. Xenu is realy a part of Scientology, otherwise scientology would't have raided indivuduals and my ISP, nor dragged to court 24 defendants in one swoom in The Netherlands for supposed copyright violation. They lost, but it took ten years and a huge bag of money. If you want to quick guide to the alien Scientology beliefs then watch South Park. Scroll down here http://www.xenu.net/news/ Mike

63 Hubbard didn't say that, Orson Welles did. Court affidavits say so. You guys can believe whatever you want. But I find it kinda stupid that you'd believe Internet rumors over the word of an actual, practicing Scientologist who's been in Scientology for over two decades. And, Hi Mike Gormez, why don't you tell the group who you really are, and all the lawsuits you've been involved in? To the rest of you, like I said before - you're being fed a bunch of bs by anti-Scientologists like this Mike Gormez here (who's devoted much of his free time to attacking my religion on the Net). Some day, you may want to actually learn for yourselves what Scientology is really about. In the meantime, feel free to hang on to your alien stories if they amuse you.

64 Greg, I'll believe the cabbage in my fridge any day over a brainwashed religious cult fanatic, whether you, or Osama, or the Pope, because cabbages don't lie and they're useful for something, unlike religious fanatics who are dangerous and should all be exiled to anthrax island or some such place.

65 Hi Improbus, I can empathize with your logic - but it has a couple of holes. First of all, you may find that the people that you dub "religious fanatics" are not any more so than you. Challenge your assumptions. I happen to follow a philosophy which helps me deal with the problems of everyday life, and (I hope) makes me a better person. This philosophy is what took me to volunteer for three weeks in Indonesia in January, and for another three weeks in July in Mississippi - at my own expense. This philosophy does not teach me to hate, does not advocate any of my fellow human beings "exiled to anthrax island" or any such thing. Scientology appeals to me because it encourages introspection and allows -encourages- people to think for themselves. (Sure, that's not what you hear in the Media, but Hello? the Media twists things.) I don't think it's fair to compare any Scientologist to Osama. On the 20th of September of 2001 I, along with 800 other Scientology volunteers, was on a plane to New York to pitch in. We helped the firefighters and the relief workers for days at a time right in Ground Zero, and were commended by Giulianni's office for it. So I believe the Osama reference is a bit out of place. Look, all I'm asking you is to realize that I'm not here telling you that you should believe as I do, nor am I here to convince you of anything other than this: Allow for the possibility that the bullshit you read about Scientology on the Internet and the National Enquirer MAY not be the absolute truth. Peace. Greg www.liveandgrow.org PS: Ask the cabbage in your fridge, it may agree with me. :-)

1 It's a mean thing to say but, Those people in West Virginia were thanking God that He let everyone live, right up until they found out that He didn't. Then they forgot all about God and started yelling at a corporation. Christians and Muslims have this in common: When fortune smiles on them, they say it is the work of God. When things go badly, they say it is the work of bad men.

2 In this case, Shannon, I have to agree. However, had they lived, the anger at the company would only have been deflected for a short time. I'm not convinced God has anything to do with any of this. Mother Nature, on the other hand ....

3 That quote is from Syria? Shoot, I thought it was from U.C. Berkeley's Daily Californian. Oh right, sorry. The God reference would never fly there. Nevermind.

4 Equating a known terrorist with the families of WVa coal miners. Yup, I'd say that was pretty mean.

5 If Sharon dies, at least it would have been from an unavoidable, sudden illness. As opposed to that other guy who most likely died from complications due to numerous Brokeback Gaza encounters.

6 I keep up with a lot of things but I must admit that I'm not really knowledgeable about Israeli politics, but I was under the impression that Sharon is/was considered more of a liberal (by their standards) and someone like Netanyahu is considered more to the right. Am I wrong about that? If not, I would think the Palestinian thugs would rather have Sharon in power. It was under Sharon's watch that Israel left Palestinian settlements. The last I kept up with these things, Netanyahu was still a powerful person in Israel and could easily regain control. I seem to remember that his position was more toward pushing everyone of them into the sea. Be careful what you ask for. Of course, that was many hours of sleep and several beers ago, so I could be wrong.

7 I wonder what they consider the death of Yassir Arafat...

8 Mychimo, Uh, murder. Most claim that the Jews somehow poisoned Arafat. Some of them even claimed that harmful rays from Jewish women's hair killed him. I'm not kidding, that is how backward these people are, and everyone wants to give them a country. Unbelievable!

9 Yep! God did it. Knew it all the time. He also did Katrina and the flood in Indonesia. Whoa wait. Indonesia worships the camel jockey? Earthquakes in Pakistan? Probably not god. Must be Bush.

10 He wasn't being mean Vinnie, just pointing out the duplicitous nature of people, and he was right.

11 After seeing photographs of Palastinian people rejoicing at his stroke, including the banners "Sharoon go to hell" I hope his replacement is someone that does not concede anymore land, and ratchets up the reprisals in return for Palastinian terrorist attacks.

12 I hope the next Israeli PM accidentally orders the carpet bombing of about half a dozen paleostinian hives.

13 >>>But a radical Palestinian leader in Damascus, the Syrian capital, called Sharon's health crisis a gift from God. Proving once again that these assorted paleos, arabs, and muslims have zero class. Yes, everyone wanted Arafat dead when he caught the AIDS, for instance, but did any of our leaders go around holding press conferences to say it? Class vs no class.

14 You know I had been kinda hoping with Sharon pulling out of the Gaza and the Westbank. The Palestinians would get their act together and build a peaceful society. Not a chance as soon as Sharon dies their going to start lobbing mortars from the Westbank. This is going to end bad for the Palestinians. Watched PBS last night One God three religion thingy. I started to try to understand them a little more. Then of course they pull this crap today. Frankly the Isrealis are going to run out of patience and Palestine will just be one big smear that will wash away in the next rain.

15 Pat Robertson thinks God struck Sharon for not keeping the territory intact. Palestinians are just as thankful about Sharon's condition as the Israelis were about Arafat's condition. Perhaps it's just human nature to hate your enemy so much that you rejoice when tragedy strikes.

16 Dale, yes, but we expect our leaders to show a little class. The president of Iran is practically dancing a jig he's so happy. No class.

17 P.S.S If GOD gives Israel to Benji, YOU will be pushed into the ocean. End of that "State" you have been seeking. Straighten up now and become civilized, Palestine. Leave Israel alone.

1 No... no chip on the shoulder there.

2 There probably is... but the Chinese spy thing... that makes me not want to dismiss him so readily. But that's just me.

3 Hm, this is something I mentioned a while back, I think. I did some cursory looking into it, and couldn't find anything to suggest he was off his rocker. What I do know is there's a documented pattern of retaliation of this type against national security whistleblowers such as Tice, and under current law, they have virtually no recourse. Congress is set to hold hearings on the topic sometime this month. I'll have to look up exactly when...

4 Our plan is to pretend to like the Chinese while we make money off of them. Their plan is to pretend to like the U.S. while they make money off of us. I hope our plan works before their plan does.

5 I wouldn't be a bit surprised if we still had some questionable Chinese in sensitive positions, given the proclivity the Clinton Admin had for fraternizing with the Chinese throughout the entire second half of the 90's. Some were bound to fall through the cracks. And the CIA and NSA (and a few other acronyms) still have many devout Clintonites willing to protect his reputation by dismissing any accusations about Chinese spies. Hell, Janet Reno was busier than a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs deflecting attention and stopping investigations into many Chinese nationals who were granted very sensitive positions. I won't speak to the legalities of the NSA wiretapping because I'm not well versed in that law, but this Chinese spy accusation wouldn't surprise me in the least. As a matter of fact, I think the deep sixing of Able Danger had something to do with the Chinese too even though all the attention is on its finding of al Qaeda cells. [/conspiracy theorizing]

6 Pulling someone's security clearance is a career-ending move, and as stated it seems a bit overblown. I suppose that depends on what his exact behavior happened to be. (The Chinese spy is communicating with her handlers by virtue of a foil hat and an implanted HRF chip in her brain, etc.) Everything lies in the details. Besides, because of the nature of the work NSA is bound to include a number of "marginal personalities." That's the tradeoff you make. But there ought to be some sort of probationary situation where a person may lose their clearance until the circumstances are cleared up. Knowing what I know about how these bureaucracies operate it's fairly easy to believe that they might be unfair and oppressive, as well as ineffective. They're bound to be full of people with grievances.

7 Unless his "information" also includes why he believed a co-worker was a Chinese spy, then .. what? Interesting accusation (baggage) isn't it? Anyone here even been familiar with co-workers making accusations against fellow co-workers on any hosts of subjects? And you give credibility immediately becasue - why?

8 I've been there on this one - I've worked with a fellow employee who had a re-occuring habit of making accusations against fellow employees. Including "he's a Chinese spy - she's really a lesbian - he got promoted 'cause he's white - he's a muslim and you know about them - I could easily go on. I'll wait.

9 Ah shit! He might me right. Play the odds.

1 I think it would only last until one astronaut triple dog dares another astronaut to do a spacewalk without a spacesuit. Or until the drunken astronauts look at each other and scream "ROAD TRIP!!"

2 Like I always said - I got a lot of hope and good feelings about the Russians - can you imagine a Western European being so down to earth while up in space?

3 this might start a trend. the Brits can send ale, the Germans lagers, the French wines (heh), and Americans can send whiskey. and just imagine the feats of strength that they could pull in close to zero G's. Of course it all depends on what a "small ration of alcohol" means.

4 Heck why stop at alcohol. Next they can recommend space hooker visits to boost morale.

5 Alcohol makes me sing much better too.

6 Roluman Ale or Suarian Brandy take what you want the Ten Forward serves it all

7 Mixed sex crews and ten gallons of Vodka? Good idea!

8 The headlines pretty much write themselves, including the part where W. gets blamed for everything. Or atheists, gotta blame us too.

1 hey Shackelford, get this cow off your page Fight On Trojans!

2 Hey, it's just a Big 12 thing. I'll be happy to go back hating Texas when the game's over.

3 Am I the only one who finds it amusing that the Longhorns are playing the Trojans?

4 No, Bluto, I'm laughing my ass off too. And even though I am from Texas, I went to school at the University of Arkansas, so, I still want Texas to win. Haha! WhooooPigggssSooieeeee!!!!!!!!!

5 I must have missed something - is this a Forrest Gump thing like ... RUN VINNIE RUN

6 hondo, when Rusty sees one of his contributors rooting against USC, my name may as well be Forrest Gump. Actually, it'll be more like Forrest Gimp.

7 Hey, Vince can avoid the Heisman Curse. Go in the draft, after all He never won it; therefore no Curse. Now ducking Longhorn curses!!!!

8 USC wins stupidity award....Reggie Bush's idiotic lateral cost them points in the 1st quarter, not kicking the field goal in the first quarter because of miscommunication from the bench cost them three points, and more than anything...Pete Carroll- are you on crack? 2nd down and 7..less than 3 minutes to go and up five- incomplete pass stops the clock and leaves team in 3rd and long! Dummy! CLOCK MANAGEMENT! and then, two plays later, you punt you jackass!!!! never go for it at midfield, particularly when a TD can beat you and your defense SUCKS!

9 Don't forget the most brilliant coach of our time [at least according to the hype] also called his last time out on a meaningless 2 point conversion trailing by 1 with 26 seconds left on the clock; thus costing his team at least one additional play to attempt to tie or win. Frankly, Texas played like crap for most of the game and couldn't get out of their own way, but won anyway because of three factors: 1. PRIDE. Young picked up the team, put it on his shoulders and carried them to victory, but not without the Texas defense [finally] asserting itself in the last 5 minutes. 2. TALENT. Texas just had more of it, especially defensively. and 3. STUPIDITY: Did Pete Carol watch ANY film on Texas? His defensive game plan took away Jamal Charles and Seldon Young and forced the ball into the hands of Vince Young. How dumb is that? Mac Brown, on the other hand, correctly decided to take away Reggie Bush and force Matt Leinart to win or lose the game. Hook'em Horns!!!

10 (Unbiased opinion as a non-fan of either team) Re: Pete Carroll/USC hype Remember Pete was an NFL coach who couldn't make it due to, among other things, clock mismanagement, bad game plans, etc. So this is really no surprise. He has been talked about as getting another chance in the NFL but I think he's just a good college coach who has been blessed with good talent. USC spent much of the season pulling victories out of a hat in the 4th quarter against weaker teams. I'm not saying that they didn't deserve to be in the game because they did win when they had to but most of #3 - #10+ were pretty weak compared to other years. Even at 11-1, I think Penn State is one of the weaker #3 teams in a long time. It took them 3 OTs to beat the #23 team. I think Ohio State should have finished at #3. Penn State reminds me of 'that' team every year that comes from out of nowhere for one season and then slinks back to reality the following year. Even though he'll probably be the #1 pick, it appears that Reggie Bush might be human after all and his value may have dropped just a little. I have a buddy with season tickets to the Texans and go to a few games with him and Reggie won't have a good OL as it stands right now and will be going up against pro defenses that are designed to stop the run first. I do think he'll be a good player eventually but don't think he'll be an impact player without someone to block. I also heard hype last night about USC's defense 'possibily being the best ever' and how they might be able to beat a few NFL teams. Uh, yeah. I will say one good thing about Pete Carroll since it was mentioned that he didn't have a game plan for Young. I don't think any college defense can shut him down for long so it looks like Carroll was hoping to shut down his main targets and cross his fingers that the line could contain him. That's the problem with a QB who is as good a running back as a QB and the reason a lot of pro teams are going that direction - because the QB doesn't usually have a man assigned directly to him unless it's a blitz. Again, (mostly) unbiased but I haven't bought into all the hype for USC for most of the year and got real sick of it. Now I can go back to hating UT.

11 Eric Crouch is just the tip of that iceberg. Jason White - 2003 Chris Weinke - 2000 Danny Wuerffel - 1996 Rashaan Salaam - 1994 Charlie Ward - 1993 Gino Torretta - 1992 Andre Ware - 1989 And that's just the last 20 years. Just shows that you can be an average athlete and still put up huge numbers in college.

1 You mean that dinosaurs and palm trees living in Antarctica, and glaciers in Ohio had nothing to do with my pickup truck? Damn, imagine that.

2 Mars could be undergoing major global warming http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1660 Looks like those SUVs aren't just warming the earth-- they're warming the whole solar system!!!

3 Damn, I better go shut that engine off on my truck. Well, I was watching the game and forgot about it. Piss on Mars!

4 I've got gas heat n' so far this winter its been quite mild here in NY - 52 today - no need for heat! so JJ - turn that engine back on - please!

5 A meteor, perhaps?

6 OR that huuuuge volcano under Yellowstone, that is scheduled to blow up again within the next 500 years.

7 Or the Sun's output. Someone turn that damn Sun off!

8 And they did,nt have factories or SUVs back then it was cuased by volcanos and burping dinosuars and perhapes some dino fetulence as well eeeuuwww the dipldocus just cut one

9 Of course, there weren't billions of people living along coastal areas 55 million years ago, either. Hence, the concern now. Unless, of course, you're willing to billet some of these people out of the goodness of your heart.

10 Venom, the point is not a lack of "concern" about all those people on the coasts. We all know they're up shit creek. The point is WHAT is causing global warming. Is it the evil corprayshuns or is it a natural cycle. Warming on Mars would suggest the latter.

11 I'll billet a few of them coasties if they got the money, but I didn't take 'em to raise. Last time I checked(this AM) land was available here in Texas, and there's still plenty of room. Except for liberals. We don't need or want any more liberals down here.

12 Well, Mars is a little different from Earth...but that's neither here nor there. Besides, who cares if volcanos contribute to global warming? They're beyond the scope of humanity's control. The fact is that emissions caused by corporations, cars, etc. can be controled and/or dealt with. Since they contribute to global warming (notice I didn't say "are the main cause of"), why not try to reduce them?

13 THE END IS NEAR - REPENT NOW! Sorry, not interested - but you are absolutely free to live in a grass hut and make your own butter.

14 >>>Well, Mars is a little different from Earth...but that's neither here nor there. Actually that statement is neither here nor there given that the warming on Mars suggests that our own warming isn't "global", but SOLAR. And switching to hybrids and shutting down the corprayshuns isn't going to change that. As far as reducing emissions, I'm sure that's a worthy cause (I guess), but not if other polluters don't also participate. I don't think whitey should be penalized, while China and India, and all the 3rd worlders get a pass. Eff that.

15 Vote for Rush.

16 You miss the point, Carlos. Who gives a shit if it's warming on Mars? Do Volcanos contribute to global warming here on Earth? Sure. Do emissions from factories, cars, etc. contribute to global warming, too? Yes. Can something be done about volcanos erupting? No. Can something be done about the latter? Yes. Soooo....maybe, um, reducing emissions could have a positive impact for you and I? It's not really that kwazy an idea. Oh, and sure, China and India contribute a lot of greenhouse gasses. But I don't see why the West can't continue to reduce said emissions even if other countries won't. Unless, of course, you don't consider the West to be better than third-world countries. Besides, they're in the middle of their Industrial Revolution, so they're not going to stop. That doesn't mean the West should hold off on further reductions until they're ready.

17 >>>"Yes. Soooo....maybe, um, reducing emissions could have a positive impact for you and I? It's not really that kwazy an idea. You're going to have to do better than "maybe" if you intend on putting people out of jobs and getting folks's homes foreclosed when you slow down our economies because of "maybe". Maybe "maybe" just aint gonna cut it.

18 >>>But I don't see why the West can't continue to reduce said emissions even if other countries won't. Venom, you're a perfect example of why I think Liberalism is so idiotic. If other countries don't reduce-- especially China and India-- then it won't make a difference whether we reduce. It just becomes a Liberal exercise in feel-good and self-loathing. If you REALLY cared about global warming you Libs would INSIST that China and India, and all the little brown people's of the world sign onto Kyoto. But you don't. It's all targeted at the West. And what does this prove? That Kyoto is more about self-loathing and Liberal notions of "fairness" than it is about global warming. And in the meantime, Solar warming progresses and China's and India's billions pump out more pollution in one year than the West would in 10, but Libs FEEL GOOD ABOUT THEMSELVES!!! YIIIPEEE! Liberalism is a mental disorder.

19 Went the "solutions" to a "problem" happen to be identical to the same "solutions" they have been advocating for "other problems" for the past many decades - one wonders. The lib/left's position - we need to change the socio-industrial-economic-political structures because .....

20 REPENT! (er, change - less it sounds like some new kind of religion) THE END IS NEAR! CONFESS YOUR SINS! (er, crimes - same problem) Don't you all just love all the religious analogies found in the Evironmental movement. quite apocalyptic - isn't it?

21 Once again, Venom takes a swing and misses completely. Of course, it's hard to hit a ball coming over the plate when you're in the parking lot.

22 IM, everyday the evidence mounts-- Liberalism is a mental disorder. It's a scourge upon Western civilization. A civilizational AIDS virus.

23 Carlos, are these the same jobs that have already gone to China and India? I mean, most true American companies have abandoned their patriotism to secure higher profits in those countries already. Especially those manufacturing jobs that can take advantage of the lower emission standards in those countries you already stated. Please, don't play the job card. It's already been done. And Carlos, appreciating the environment isn't liberalism. I'm a Conservative. Maybe not of the douchebag variety you've succumbed to, but a conservative nonetheless. Oh right, anyone who doesn't think like you is a raving lib. Gimme a break. It's dumbasses like you who continue to marginalize middle-of-the-road conservatives that are going to get the Dems back in power. Oh, and I'd really like to see your science that says that the West reducing emissions would have no measureable impact on global greenhouse gas emissions. Or, is it that you're talking out of your ass again? Ah, thought so. Sure, India and China spout more, but you don't seem to get it that we're all on this planet together and that any kind of progress is GOOD PROGRESS. Get India and China to sign on to Kyoto? Who gives a fuck. Why doesn't the U.S. sign it outright? Oh yeah, that "jobs" thang. The ones that have for the most part, are already gone. Right. Why do you need a third-world country to go first? America is going to lose jobs to those countries regardless of if they sign on or not. Maybe if America signed on, it could flex its muscles and get others to sign on.

24 Once again, Clueless Maximus types away, but no one really cares. Of course, it's hard to be taken seriously when most posts are about killing off all the Muslims and liberals.

25 >>>Carlos, are these the same jobs that have already gone to China and India? And Kyoto will only turn that outsourcing of our jobs into an unstopable flood. Is that what you mean by "positive impact"? Please, LIBS, don't do us any favors. >>>And Carlos, appreciating the environment isn't liberalism. I didn't say it was. But I prefer the term "conservation" because it doesn't carry all the mental disorder Liberal wacko baggage that environmentalism does. The former entails sound policy and common sense, the latter is nothing but feel-good religion for otherwise atheistic Leftists looking to fill that hole in their lives. >>>Oh, and I'd really like to see your science that says that the West reducing emissions would have no measureable impact on global greenhouse gas emissions. Is science really the issue for you? And yet you glibly dismiss warming on Mars, or ancient global warming. You're a religious nut, and no conservative, you little phony. >>>Get India and China to sign on to Kyoto? Who gives a fuck. hahaha! proof this isn't about global warming. Just more Liberal self-loathing. Liberalism is a mental disorder.

26 Hahaha, what an absolute dumbass you are. Please, tell me why 1) I'm a liberal, 2) I'm a religious nut, 3) you have any credibility. You're completely closed-minded to anything that doesn't "jive" with your neocon bullshit. You give the rest of us conservatives a black eye, and then you wonder why liberals and democrats continue to get the support they do. What unstoppable flood? The flood of what meagre manufacturing jobs are still here? Dude, did you just come out of a coma or something? The vasy majority of American manufacturing jobs have already left. To Mexico, China, India, and more. Maybe to you the leaving of a scant few percent of what American jobs used to be here consists of a "flood," but if that's the case, then you're provervially wet behind the ears. Ok, so you prefer the term "conservation." Good for you, give yourself a pat on the back. Maybe I could split hairs, too. I prefer conservatism, you prefer neo-conservatism. The former harkens back to a day of fiscal responsibility, love of one's country, family. The latter, unfortunately, is a philosophy adhered to by those of myopic tunnel vision who see a boogeyman behind everything. Can you see which side you fit on? (hint: it's the latter!) I'm dismissing warming on Mars because I prefer to compare apples to apples, and also because it has no bearing on the here and now. Did Mars experience some kind of warming event? Sure. Did Earth? Sure. Are circumstances different between then and now? Yes. Are volcanos having a measureable impact on global warming now? Maybe some. Do manmade emissions have a measureable impact? Of course. Can we do something about said manmade emissions. Yes. So, why don't we? Carlos is a mental disorder. Read his posts with caution.

27 >>>"neocon bullshit." You just gave yourself away. Only moonbats use that word. And what a complete fucking moonbat moron you must be if you don't realize that more regulation under Kyoto wouldn't excacerbate the outsourcing of jobs. If that simple fact is beyond your tiny brainwashed Liberal mind then you're completely hopeless.

28 Nope, us conservatives use it also to distance ourselves from frothing-at-the-mouth dumbasses like yourself. If you were able to poke your head out of your cocoon once in a while, you might have noticed. But, since you're unable to distinguish between neo-conservatism and conservatism, you're almost a waste of breath to even attempt to discuss with. I mean, even the president called himself a "compassionate conservative." In your mind, he might as well have called himself Chomsky, right? And hey, at least I've figured out that there aren't a whole lot more jobs (from a Kyoto) standpoint to outsource anymore anyways. But, like I said, you don't seem to get out a whole lot so maybe your ignorance is excusable. Maybe. And like I said, fuck Kyoto. America shouldn't need a pact to see the benefits of a cleaner environment. But you can't figure that out, either. Interesting article, by the way. Too bad it doesn't add to your point. CO2 emissions come from a variety of sources. On Mars, it comes from CO2 ice. On Earth, a lot of it is manmade. Nice try. Would you like to keep trying?

29 >>>On Mars, it comes from CO2 ice. It comes from the ice because it's MELTING you fucking moron. HEAT causes the MELTING, moron. SOLAR radiation is causing that HEAT on Mars, moron. Just like it causes HEAT everwhere else in the SOLAR system, INCLUDING EARTH. I can barely stand it how stupid you people are. My GOD you people are stupid.

30 And sorry, cocksucker. You ain't no conservative, "neocon" or otherwise. There's no conservative on the planet that buys into your environmental wackoism.

31 Holy fuck, I didn't think I had to actually spell out that the CO2 ice is MELTED for the greenhouse gas to emit. I didn't think I had to dumb it down and connect every dot for you, but based on you batting 1.000 in MISSING THE FUCKING POINT apparently I did. Good for you, the SUN melts it, whoopitydoo....you get a sticker, smarty. It doesn't change the fact that Mars' warming and Earth's is COMPLETELY FUCKING DIFFERENT! How did you even pass high school, you fucking douchebag? Solar warming. Give me a fucking break. Obviously the SUN plays a part in any kind of global warming. Apparently the issue of CAUSE and EFFECT are two terms you've NEVER FUCKING HEARD OF. Do you get it now, dummy? And yup, sorry to say, I am a conservative; just not to your clueless kind, dumbfuck. You know, maybe you aren't a neocon. Maybe dumbfuck is your political stripe. You know, no matter how many times proof is shown at them, they close their eyes and believe something else? Yeah, sounds like you.

32 Are you actually trying to argue that the Sun is warming up Mars-- as evidenced by it's melting ice and release of gases-- but NOT also warming the Earth? You're saying that the Sun is just picking on Mars for some reason and giving Earth the big pass? Please clarify if that's what you actually think because I don't want to jump to any conclusions about the severity of your mental retardation. Again, the Sun is warming Mars, but not Earth? And if so, tell me how that's possible. Don't go off on tangents and red herrings please. Just how the Sun can warm Mars but not Earth.

33 >>>And yup, sorry to say, I am a conservative; Fanfuckingtastic, and I'm a Liberal who objects to how Liberalism got taken over by all you anti-American, self-loathing moonbats, Leftwingers and communists. See how easy that is? moron.

34 Carlos, did I not fucking say "Obviously the SUN plays a part in any kind of global warming."? Please, nice try in attempting to change the goalposts. Or, maybe your comprehension skills are, shall we say, third-world? Obviously the Sun warms any thing under it - Earth, Mars, even Pluto gets a measly degree Kelvin of warmth from it. The point, which you seem intent on missing, is that global warming happens for a variety of reasons. On Mars, CO2 ice melts (yes, via the Sun) and it's released into what atmosphere Mars has. On Earth, it's released from factories and cars (and yes, from volcanoes). And good golly, the Sun warms it all up and creates a greenhouse effect. Yes, the Sun, because I apparently had to state before, the Sun is integral in global warming. But, as you can maybe fathom, there are no cars on Mars. No factories. Not even a clueless neocon whose best feat so far is converting his oxygen into CO2. So, Mars is warming because of different reasons than Earth. And, because of that, I once again don't see the relevance in bringing Mars into a debate about global warming on Earth. Get it?

35 Carlos, please tell me how I'm anti-American. I know you can go on and on about how liberals are anti-american and blah blah blah. But please tell me what I've ever said that makes me a liberal, despite the fact that in the 1 1/2 years I've been posting here, I've maintained by conservative values. Please, because I'm really interested in how your thinking works. Perhaps you make things up so they fit what you want to believe?

36 >>Obviously the SUN plays a part in any kind of global warming."? Venom, progress. So what evidence do you have that given the forces of the universe arrayed against us we can make any noticeable difference by tanking our economies while giving our enemies (China) the big pass? I don't see how that terrible cost can justified the extremely SPECULATIVE benefits. Re your anti-Americanism, your whole bit about putting America under Kyoto and giving 2.5 billion Chinese and Indians a pass reeks of anti-Americanism. Look what the Chinese are doing to their country right now even as we speak. Now imagine them all driving SUVs. Get it?

37 Carlos, the jobs are gone. You seem to think that by signing to Kyoto, you sign away these hordes of jobs. They're long gone. And that's why I said fuck Kyoto. America can go it alone, hell even exceed Kyoto. My fundamental point is that there is a lot of room for improvement with respect to greenhouse emissions and reducing them. If that comes across as being anti-American, then I apologize. Perhaps I love America so much, I want to see it exceed everyone else's expectations. As a leader in the world, it ought to have a place front-and-centre. It can use its clout to encourage other countries to get on board, whether it's Kyoto or some other kind of agreement. American jobs have been disappearing for over 20 years. Most are long gone. A few still remain. Without Kyoto, they're going anyways. Is Kyoto the answer to everything? Of course not. But, it's presumptious to assume a "sky is falling" mentality to even consider it, especially when all the economic damage it might have done has already been committed over years and years. Are the benefits speculative? Sure. But the costs to our planet aren't. It's measureble. I say again, you don't have to be a liberal to love the environment. I know many conservatives like myself who love the environment. We fish, we hunt, we hike. Being environmentally conscious isn't the sole domain of hippies and beatniks. Fuck that. Everyone should see that the environmental damages in the last hundred years could have a monumental impact for centuries, and that we ought to be doing something about.

38 And if you're really a conservative, I want you to say in all CAPS that Liberalism is a mental disorder. Say it and maybe I'll believe you.

39 Awwww wassamatter venom? Is it irked that I busted it without even having to address its precious little attempt at an argument? Please, you're not smart enough to argue with me, so go grow up, get a job, move out of your mom's basement, and contribute to society, then maybe someone will care what you say.

40 Sniff, sniff, aw gee Mr. Clueless Maximus, please don't make me cry with your big tough words. You're such a powerhouse. lmfao. What a joke you are, CM. Not even Rusty takes you seriously. Not smarter than you? Fuck, you're one of the most ignorant people that's ever posted here. Anyone is smarter than you. And I should give a shit about what you say? Boo-hoo, cry me a river. Why don't you get fucked, you peenass. lol. Carlos, your stance on American jobs seems to be the one that ignores reality. For whatever reason, you're ignoring the fact that the job exodus has been occuring for a very long time. According to the Economic Policy Institute, 1.5 million since 1989. And that's just to China alone. They're gone. You seem to think that the scant few percent still here amount to the full 100% that have been here forever. I say it in simple terms because I can't seem to make it any clearer. Are there jobs still here? Sure, but the shifting of American jobs to other countries is a trend that's not going to reverse any time soon, because America is progressing forward. And signing on to Kyoto or staying off of it isn't going to make a lick of difference. Big business is going to do what it wants, it doesn't really matter what kind of administration is in power. And sure reducing emissions is going to cost money and some jobs. I never said it it wouldn't. But the benefits in doing so could be worth it. Changes often do require a fair bit of expenditure. Just by reducing the dependency on coal, America could reduce it's emissions by 40%. You're saying that's not worth it? It's an ineffecient fuel to begin with. Look, to move forward, change requires a cost. Should we all continue to live in the dark ages because it's expensive to move forward? Job transitioning is part of the business cycle. You can't have change without losing some jobs. It's inevitable. It's realistic. And Carlos, I'm not going to say that, caps or otherwise (because it's dumb, actually). What I will say is that liberalism is misguided and incongruent with progress. The same as neoconservatism. Conservate thinking (the pure, non-shortsighted kind) is the only kind worth considering in this day and age.

41 Jesus, that's sad. I almost feel bad for dumbass above for being such a lamer. Almost. Hey moron, just so you know, I have about as much regard for your opinion as I do for the dog crap I step over in my back yard, so don't waste your time.

42 "Holy fuck, I didn't think I had to actually spell out that the CO2 ice is MELTED for the greenhouse gas to emit." Actually, CO2 ice sublimates. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimation_%28physics%29 /pedant

43 lol, Clueless Maximus, the only thing missing from that last post of yours was the trademark "I know you are but what am I" retort.

1 I'm missing the part where suicide bombing is supposed to be glorified. If you want to see suicide attacks glorified on film, the best examples I can think of are the propaganda posters put out by the IJA toward the end of WW2. This guy just says he's going to make the film from the bomber's POV. It might turn out to glorify terrorism, but you'll have to watch it to find out. "All Quiet on the Western Front" was written from the German POV, but it hardly glorified Prussian imperialism.

2 ShannonKW: The difference of course, is that the German armed forces, from their point of view were serving their country. However, if you can suggest that their is a side story, to people decimated by glass / ball bearings / nails at the hands of a suicide bomber, that does not hit military, nor a Government targets, perhaps you could fill us all in? I guess that must sound rather noble to you?

3 Let me see. A Muslim makes a film about suicide bombing starring his own son in the lead role of the failed suicide bomber. I'm pretty sure he is going to show the bomber being brainwashed by a radical cleric in a London mosque. The cleric will be depicted as an evil adherant of the radical Salafist cult of Islam, where the Koran is taken to literally mean that the kufirs who refuse to convert to Islam are to be killed, their riches are to be plundered, and their women are to be raped and put into harems. After the failed bombing, the young man will regain his senses, and realize that bombing innocent people is wrong, and he will reject the radical Salafist cleric and turn him over to the authorities, and will testify against the cleric in a court of law in an attempt to get the cleric jailed for inciting murder. The cleric will be convicted, the young man will moderate his view, and become a dedicated moderate Muslim who takes it upon himself to rid the World of radical Islam. Now I would pay good money to see that movie. I guess we will just have to wait and see, but I won't hold my breath. I have a feeling the movie will be entirely different.

4 The Reuters story says: "the story of a would-be suicide bomber struggling to reconcile the message of radical Islam with an appetite for life." It seems to me that if he really did want to delve into whatever mental struggle he seems to believe occurs in suicide bombers, then perhaps it would be far more beneficial to have the central character being a reformed would-be bomber who has abandonned all prior held beliefs of radical Islam and now strives to put an end to it. But I guess that's not artsy and chic enough.

5 Dave, Nope, not to me. But then again, if I was born an Arab and had a suicidal chip on my shoulder for the U.S., I would have flown a jet into a docked nuclear aircraft carrier, not into an aging office building full of marketing weenies. The former would have enraged only the U.S. and left the rest of the world sending token condolences (while hiding their smirks with the other hand) but the actual terrorists chose the latter. I still don't know why. I'd have to see it from their POV to understand. For now my working hypothesis is that they were stupid.

6 Dang it JJ, when did you become psychic?

7 I think you would like my movie, Graeme. Hmm...maybe I should become a movie producer? Nah, could you see a redneck producer in Hollywood? Me, neither.

8 How do you account for Dukes of Hazard?

9 The cleric will be convicted, the young man will moderate his view, and become a dedicated moderate Muslim who takes it upon himself to rid the World of radical Islam. So it'll be a work of fantasy....

10 Graeme, Let's just say we think a lot alike, beside the fact that a storyline like we suggested would actually be good for all concerned. But alas, the storyline will be nothing like that. And that's a shame!

11 ShannonKW: The very notion that a suicide bombers 'motive' is being interpreted in a movie, ennobles it. Instead of seeing it as a senseless, irrational, multiple homicide; we get to see some bollywood's director "idea" of what justifies a homicide bombing, as if there is a justification for a terrorist attack against civilian entities.

12 JJ, a storyline like that would be one worth turning into a movie. I'm curious to see if this will fly in India, considering the problems that they face with terrorism and hindu-muslim fighting. I guess that's why the director chose London for the subject matter - so it won't hit too close to home. Hey I think a Texan as a bigshot Hollywood would be a good thing. Afterall, there's a Texan in the Oval Office and he's doing an okay job.

13 Haha, thanks, Graeme, for the vote of confidence. I think I'll select you as my front man to pave the way, a Karl Rove type, to smooth my transition from rancher/farmer redneck to, well, rancher/farmer redneck Texan movie producer. Hell man, that might make a good movie itself!

14 Perhaps this monkey should take a trip to iraq and try to explain the point of view of a wretched suicide bomber to the families of the 30 killed in the latest mass murder in iraq. The victims were attending a funeral when the maggot struck. As displayed before, these 'freedom fighters' are far from noble, time and time again they display how low they can go, why even pigs would have more of a conscience.

15 >>>"The film will be an attempt to clarify Islam is not demonic and to delve into the mind of a young suicide bomber to try to find out what drives him to reject life for a violent death." Yet another opportunity to display their anti-Americanism. Nothing new to see here.

16 The west better stop pussy-footing around with this crap. There's generally too much hand-wringing about taking on the threat. Mark Steyn has a great article about how great societies are never "murdered". Rather, they commit suicide.. little by little. It's what's happening to the west right now. I don't want to understand islam. I just want it gone. Somehow, the West needs to find the intestinal fortitude to do what Spain finally had to do in 1492.

17 "Muslims are demonized by the western nations especially after the so-called war on terror. The gulf between Muslims and the rest of the world is widening." Ah, so the Muslims who excoriate and malign all Jews are feeling the pinch when they find themselves at the same end of the ugly stick? Naw - can't be.

1 Yet a mooselimb in the other thread, accuses the U.S of making Afghanistan a hell hole, it just shows you the Islamic ideology also shorts out all logic from the brain.

2 Howie, this dovetails rather nicely with the post I just made about the upcoming suicide bomber movie. Is anyone else reminded of that "the Mafia doesn't exist" period we went through in the eighties?

3 It is a hideous religion that would kill a man, a Muslim no less, who has done nothing more than try to educate girls so they can help themselves out of poverty. I'm waiting for the moderate Muslims to condemn this murder and all murders committed in the name of Islam. I've been waiting a long time.

4 Amaad: Here's your chance to make Dave's day.

5 The Taliban have shown themselves once again to be cowards and scum of the lowest order. Despite the beatings and intimidation, this teacher was willing to stand firm and do what he thought was right and to help his country advance. That's courage.

6 "The Islamic teachings about jihad are what uproots oppression and guarantees people the freedom to think and to choose their religion for themselves without being under any compulsion. Islam seeks to have people freely submit themselves to their Creator and not be placed under the subjugation of any worldly dictator, race, tribe, or nationality" AMAAD 1/4/2006 Ya sure, you betcha. Dude, they cut dad's head off in front of his 8 kids.

7 I thought Muslims were not to imbibe in the spirits, yet Amaad makes a statement like that and claims to be sober. Now that's funny!

8 And it's not even Ramadan yet.

9 You'd have known about this two weeks ago if you read the Carnival of the Liberated over at Dean's World. I picked it up from an Afghan blogger on December 20.

10 Dave. You got me I did not read it. Sorry. Give me a heads up now and then and I'll link it. I think I need an RSS reader or a net surfing sponsor... Howie brought to you by Pioneer Seed! Get better yields and your choice of this green farmer's hoodie or this black insulated winter jacket with the pioneer logo. Ah I can see it now.

11 Par for the course, my friends. Any one surprised? Thought not...

12 Muslims are silly little children. Nothing more. The world should stop educating them and allowing them to leave their silly little cruel countries. Shun them. Piss on them.

13 Since we're too civilized as a nation to just nuke them into submission, as we rightfully should, and nor are we likely to purge the libtards from among us, we should at least exile all libtards to muslim countries, and prohibit mulsims and libtards from entering civilized countries upon pain of death.

14 Opium Poppy production up 264% since the US-led forces captured Afghanistan. WOMEN IN ISLAM Women and Their Status In Islam by Muhammad Adbul Aleem Siddiqui (R.A) Reproduced with permission from World Islamic Mission (Canada) History is silent as to whether there was any distinction in status between the male and the female sexes during the beginnings of human civilization. In later days no doubt the female sex was regarded as inferior to the male and the idea of inferiority developed to such an extent that the male sex not only claimed a complete superiority over the female sex, but further arrogated to itself the right to utilise and employ the female sex as it liked. Surveying the history of the world on this point we find that in pre-Christian Europe and Greece, which was the centre of light and learning for a long time and which provided philosophical and scientific inspiration to the Europe of later days, regarded woman as something definitely inferior to man. She was a subservient creature who had come into existence solely for the purpose of breeding citizens for the state and soldiers for the army. Their great dramatist Euripedes puts into the mouth of Medea the remark. "Women are impotent for good, but clever contrivers of all evils," Such degrading conceptions led to a moral.degeneration which ultimately ruined the Greek society. The names of virtuous women says Professor Lecky, scarcely appear in Greek history." (History of European Morals, Vol:ll p. 307). Conditions in Europe did not irnprove with the advent of Christianity. "Of the woman came the beginning of sin and the wickedness of man and through her we all die. " Consequently, Paul, the premier saint of Christendom, proclaimed: "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence, for Adam was first formed than Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in transgression." Other early Fathers were even more uncharitable and denounced women as "the lance of the demon," "the gate of the Devil," "the road of iniquity." "the sting of the scorpion," a daughter of falsehood, the sentinel of Hell," "the enemy of peace" and "of the wild beast, the most dangerous." Nay, they went still further. The Greek Orthodox Church denied that woman had a soul and at the Council of Macon, a Bishop vehemently asserted that a woman did not belong to the human species. (Westermarck, p.663) A council held at Auxierre prohibited women [from receiving] the Eucharist [with their bare] hands [or] to [go] near the altar during the celebration of the Mass on the ground that she was an "unclean thing". "I may define man," says Principal Donaldson (Woman, pp. 181, 182), "to be a male human being and woman to be a female human being . . . Now what the early Christains did was to strike the 'male' out of the definition of man and 'human being' out of the definition of woman. Man was [a] human being made for the highest and noblest purpose; woman was a female made to serve only. She was on earth to influence the heart of man with every evil passion. She was a fire[storm] continually striving to get alongside the male man-of-war to blow him up into pieces." In the Asian cradles of civilization [women were] no better off. Hinduism, which is the oldest among the present day religions of the world, laid it down: 'In childhood a female must be subjected to her father, in youth to her husband, when her husband is dead, to her sons; a woman must never be independent'. (Manu, V 140). "The legislator Man", says the celebrated Hindu scholar, Sir R. G. Bhandarkar,"is equally hard on women. It must be acknowledged that the estimate of the old Aryan of womanly nature is not flattering to them generally. They are debarred from reading the Vedas; any religious rite in which they alone are concerned is directed to be performed without Vedic Mantras. Even the Bhagavad Gita gives expression to the general belief that it is only a sinful soul that is born as woman, Vaisya or Sudra". (Collected Works, p. 46 1). In Buddhism, says the Buddhist scholar, May Oung, "the idea of wedlock and its attendant worldly life, is opposed to the ultimate and the annihilation of Desire, the striving for which must necessarily involve celibacy." (Buddhist Law, Par. 1, p. 2). In Buddhist ideology, therefore, according to the historian Westermarck,"Woman are, of all the snares which the temper has spread for men, the most dangerous; in women are embodied all the powers of infatuation which blind the mind of the world." In pre-lslamic Arabia, the general conception of womanhood was of such a degraded type that her very existence was considered ignominious for the family. Female infanticide was consequently practiced on a wide scale. Those women, however, who escaped early death were allowed to live only on sufferance. For, an Arab woman "had no rights; she could not inherit property; her person formed part of the inheritance which came to the heir of her husband, and he was entitled to marry her against her will. Hence sprung up the impious marriages of their sons with their stepmothers and others of an even worse character. . ." "Polygamy was universal and quite unrestricted; equally so was divorce at least as far as man was concerned; (Mohammed and Mohammedanism; Bosworth Smith; p 82) Such was the condition of the female sex in the world when Mohammed (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) the Saviour of womanhood, stood up in Arabia and, through the Divine Revelation of the Lord of the Universe Who created both the male and the female and Who loves them equally, preached to the world that : females were just like males have equal rights have equal honour equal status in life They were on no account to be treated as the property of the males. They have the right of ownership of property in the same way that males have, though, no doubt under the principle of the division, the female sex has some specialised duties to perform in life, just as the male sex has its own duties. There are three stages through which womenfolk will pass in life: (a) daughter (b) wife, and (c) mother. (a) DAUGHTER Islam denounces in unequivocal terms the pre-Islamic inhumane custom of female infanticide and commands people to love and cherish their daughters even more than their sons. The Holy Qur'an says that on the Day of Judgment, the female infant who was buried alive will be questioned: "For what crime wast thou murdered?" [Qur'an 81:8,9] Thus before the Almighty, the victim herself will be able to give evidence against those who killed an innocent creature of Allah simply for the sake of satisfying their vanity. Allah again commands humanity: "Kill not your children for fear of want. We shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you. Verily, to kill them is a great sin. [Qur'an 17:31] Fatimah was the youngest daughter of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him). In dealing with her, he set an example of fatherly love which is a model for mankind. "Fatimah," he would say, "is a part of my being; whosoever annoys her annoys me" (Mishkat-ul-Masabih, XLIV:S) He also emphasized preferential treatment towards the female sex and said "When you bring anything for your children for distribution, begin with the girls first because the girls love their parents more than the boys." (b) WIFE Marriage in Islamic law is really a contract just like other civil contracts between two parties. As far as the conditions of the contract are concerned, both the parties, the man and the woman, stand upon the same level. Each party has certain rights and duties. Islam commands justice to be observed in every contract, and so in the contract of marriage too justice should be observed. The Holy Quran says: "The women have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable." [Qur'an 2:228] No doubt, under the principle of the distribution of labour, work should be divided between the pair. The womenfolk have naturally to take care of their offspring until they grow up. They have to engage themselves in bringing them up and so are not in a position to pay attention to securing their means of livelihood. The men, therefore, have been made responsible for maintaining the family, including the wife, and have been given the duty of securing all the requirments of the home. Thus we might say that in a Muslim home, the husband is supposed to work as the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the wife as the Minister of the Interior. The Holy Prophet is reported to have said : "A woman is the queen of her house." The Holy Quran describes the position of the wife in a beautiful verse, "He created for you mates from among yourselves that you might find solace in them and he ordained between you love and mercy," [Qur'an 30:21] The Prophet said: "The most perfect of believers in faith is the best of them in morals and the best of you are those who are kindest to your wives." In his famous Address at the Farewell Pilgrimage, the Prophet again laid stress on the good treatment on womenfolk. He said: "O my people, you have certain rights over your wives and so have your wives over you .... they are Allah's trust in your hand. See that you treat them with all kindness." Before this saviour of the female sex preached his Message, there was no limit for the males in respect of the number of their wives. Islam really imposed a limit and allowed plurality of marriage with the idea of abolishing adultery. Polygamy is permitted in place of illegal intercourse in cases where it becomes difficult or rather impossible ill the interest of social health to restrict marriage to strict monogamy. There are two definite occasions in the lives of human beings when polygamy becomes necessary. For example, if the marriage proves fruitless, the husband can, in most cases, be kept on the path of virtue and uprightness only by allowing a second marriage. Again, when there is a surplus of women, as happens after men have died in wars, human society can be saved from corruption and also extinction by the permission of marrying more than one wife. The Holy Quran restricts the number of wives to four and also orders complete equality and justice between them: "And if you fear that you will not deal fairly towards the orphans, marry of the women who seem good to you, two or three or four, and if you fear that you cannot do justice between them , then (marry) only one." [Qur'an 4:3] The conditions of the marriage contract are to be settled by the parties of the marriage. If, on the one hand according to the Islamic teaching, the husbands are entitled to have the right of divorce, the wives are also entitled to the right of fixing their dowry and niaintainence as they like, and they may also take the authority of separating themselves from their husbands when they find it necessary to do so. If agreement at a time of marriage is made with complete consideration, the parties stand practically at the same level and there remains no possibility for the womenfolk to suffer. Islam enjoins justice, equity and straightforwardness. Therefore if those who claim to be Muslims do not observe Islamic principles, then it is their fault and Islam can on no account be accused for that. If today people misuse the permission for polygamy and try to hide their lustftil actions under the cloak of Islamic legality, it is their fault and they deserve the most severe punishment at the Court of the All-Knowing Allah who knows what is in their hearts. (c) MOTHER As mothers, the status of women has been raised by Islam to such an extent that nothing higher is conceivable. The Holy Quran says: Your Lord has commanded that you shall worship none but Him and goodness to your parents. If either or both of them reach old age in your life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour. And make yourself submissively gentle to them with compassion and say: O my Lord bestow on them compassion even as they cherished me in my childhood.[Qur'an 17 23-24] It is reported that when the Prophet was questioned by a disciple as to who after God and his Prophet should be revered most, the Prophet said "Your mother." When questioned "Who, after the mother?" The Prophet said "Your mother." He was again asked "And, then, who after the mother? " He again replied: "Your mother". The man put the question for the fourth time and the Prophet then answered: "Your father." This Tradition shows that the position of the mother in the eyes of her sons and daughters should be three times higher than that of the father. It is reported that once a disciple came to the Prophet and said "O Prophet Of Allah, on a hot day in the desert of Arabia, in the sunny noon when the stones and sands were burning like fire, my mother and I were travelling by foot without any shoes. I carried my mother on my shoulders so that she may not suffer the pain of walking bare-footed on the hot sands and stones. Could I pay the reward of the pains she had to bear in bringing me up?" The Prophet replied:"No, not even a fraction of the pain she suffered at the time you were born." In Islam the best action of worship is the performance of Pilgrimage to Mecca, i.e., the Hajj, and the reward to a person who performs the Hajj properly is that all his past sins are pardoned and he receives a high rank in the estimation of Allah. But in expressing the dignity of the mother, the Holy Prophet said: "One who looks at the face of his mother with sentiments of reverence and love once, is rewarded as if he had performed the Pilgrimage." The people asked him, what if he looked twice, to which he replied: "It is as if he had performed two Pilgrimages, and thrice, as if he had performed three Pilgrimages and so on. In this respect, the Prophet himself set a model for the world. Once Halimah, the lady who nursed him in his childhood came to see him. The Prophet was sitting with his disciples. As soon as he saw her, he stood up with reverence and spread his mantle on the floor and requested his foster-mother to take her seat there. It is quite evident from the above that the respect which a mother receives from her children in Islam is the highest to which no other wordly relationship can aspire. The doors of spiritual elevation are open to woman in the same way as they are open to men. They are commanded to educate themselves in the same way as the men, and if they attain a high position in learning, "Never will I waste the work of a worker among you, whether male or female. You are members, one of another."[Qur'an 3:195]. Afganistan is now a US country, maybe the fact that the Taliban did not allow the US to build a gas pipe through the country led to the invasion of Afghanistan. Ahmed Karzai will bow down to every request made by the American government. Muslims are the people that sort out all logic from the brain? The Islamic empire in the early 6th. centuries were the inheritors of the scientific tradition of late antiquity. They preserved it, elaborated it, and finally, passed it to Europe (Science p3). At this early date, the Islamic dynasty of the Umayyads envinced an interest in science. It was the century that were, for Europeans, the Dark Ages, were, for Muslim scholars, centuries of philosophical and scientific discovery and development. The Arabs at the time not only assimilated the ancient wisdom of Persia, and the classical heritage of Greece, but adapted their own distinctive needs and ways of thinking (Hitti 363). The Islamic ability to reconcile monotheism and science proofs to be a first time in human thought that theology, philosophy, and science were finally harmonized in a unified whole. Thus their contribution was "one of the first magnitude, considering its effect upon scientific and philosophic thought and upon the theology of later times" (Hitti 580). One of the reason for such development of science is probably due to God's commandment to explore the laws of nature. The idea is to admire all creations for its complexity - to cherish the creator for the ingenuity. Possibly holding to this believe, Islam's contributions to science had covered many roots of thought including mathematics, astronomy, medicine and philosophy. This paper will examine these roots of natural science, and unearth the contributions of the Islamic thinkers. Islam's redound to encourage into thinking was accessed by two other ancient cultures - the Persian and the Indians. They became part of the Islamic heritage in the field of mathematics (Hitti 373). About the year 600 A.H.-during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad - an Indian Muslim mathematician developed the symbol "cipher" or zero and the system of placed notation. This invention, first mentioned in a Syriac text written in 662 AD, revolutionized the study of mathematics and made possible the great achievements of Muslim mathematicians (Science p4). Mathematical vocabulary such as "algebra" and "algorithm" are actually borrowings from Arabic words, that were later translated into Latin. It was a Muslim mathematician who formulated the trigonometric function explicitly. The word "sine" was actually the direct translation of the arabic word "jayb". An English mathematician Robert of Chester, who flourished in the middle of the twelfth century, was the first to use sinus equivalent to this Arabic jayb in its trigonometrical acception (Hitti 573). Al-Khwarizmi composed the oldest book on mathematics, known only in translation. He presented more than 800 examples of the calculation of integration and equation, later anticipated by Neo-Babylonians (Hitti 379)."As in trigonometry so in Algebra Muslims must be considered as the founders of this science whose very name reflects its origin... al-Khwarizmi... firmly established this branch of mathematics" (qtd. King 214). They introduced it with the Arabic numerals into Europe and taught Westerners the most convenient convention of arithmetic concept. "The zero and Arabic numerals lie behind the science of calculation as we know it today" (Hitti 573-574). In the first half of the ninth century, exponent numerals including the zero is used in preference to letters by al- Khwarizmi. In the second half of the ninth century, the Muslims of Spain developed numerals slightly different in shape, huruf al-ghubar (letters of dust), originally used in conjunction with a type of sand abacus. Leonardo Fibonacci of Pisa, who was taught by a Muslim master published a work which remain a landmark in the introduction of the Arabic numerals (Hitti 573-574). Early in the ninth century, mathematical calculations stimulates the crave for answers to the celestial motion. This curiosity introduces a new field of thought, called astronomy. One most important application of astronomy is the timekeeping for the time of the five daily prayers. These are defined according to the position of the sun moving from east to west. The earliest known tables for such purpose are dated from the tenth century (King 46-4 . As necessary to accurate timekeeping as tables are the instruments used by the Muslims: The magnificent sundial that ibn al-Shatir constructed in the year 1371/72 to adorn the main minaret of the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus. The sundial displays the time of day relative to sunrise, midday, and sunset and relative to the afternoon prayer. There are also special curves for times relative to daybreak and nightfall. Thus the sundial effectively measures time with respect to each of the five daily prayers (King 547). An individual by the name of Ibn al-Sarraj devised a series of astrolables, quadrants, trigonometric grids and other instruments which are innovative to the extreme. "I consider Ibn al-Sarraj's astrolable, which is universal from five different aspects, to be the most sophisticated astrolable from the Near East and Europe..." (King 544). Al-Khwarizmi, the genius mathematician, at the time applied his findings to the new field from which he composed the oldest planetary tables, or the zij (King 39, Hitti 379). His work serves as a reference text and were rendered into Latin in the twelfth century by Gerard of Cremona (Hitti 571). Among the first regular astronomical observatory tower constructed was in Jundaysabur, south west of Persia, under the direction of Sind ibn-'Ali, and Yahaya ibn-abi-Mansur. Being the Caliph's astronomer, not only that they construct a systematic chart of celestial movements, but also verified the fundamental elements of the Almangest (Hitti 373-375). The astronomers of al-Mamun, the Abbasid Caliph, made many original observations. One of the most outstanding is the measurement of the meridian near Mosul. It was found to be 111,814 meters, and measured a degree of latitude at about 36x north to be 2877 feet (qtd. King 214-215). "The object is to determine the size of the earth and its circumference on the assumption that the earth was round" (Hitti 375). In Spain, astronomical studies were cultivated after the middle of the tenth century. They reproduced the Aristotelian system, as distinguished from the Ptolemaic, the representation of celestial movements. Abu-al-Qasim Maslamah al-Majriti (of Madrid), the earliest Spanish Muslim astronomer edited and corrected the zij (planetary tables of al-Khwarizmi), the first tables composed by a Muslim. Among al-Majriti titles were al- hisab or the mathematician, for he was considered the leader in mathematical knowledge. About fourteen years later, the zij that of al-Battani, was rendered into Latin by Plato of Tivoli. Copernicus later quotes al-Battani in his book De revolutionibus orbium coelestium . Al-Zarqali (known as Arzachel in Latin West) the foremost astronomical observer of his age, deviced the safihah, a type of astrolabe, that prove the motion of solar apogee with reference to the stars (Hitti 570-71). Al-Bitruji, known as Alpetragius developed a new theory of stellar movement and wrote The book of Form in which it was detailed (Science p22 c3). Arab astronomers left the sky immortal traces of their findings. Not only are most of the star-names in European languages are of Arabic origin (The Worlds Almanac and fact Book p199 c2), but a number of technical term such as "azimuth" (al- sumut), "nadir" (nazir), "zenith" (al-samt) are of Arabic etymology. This testifies the rich legacy of Islam to Christian Europe (Hitti 573). The first of the Arabians, the rival indeed of Galen, was the Persian Ibn Sina, or better known as Avicenna. He was given the title 'the Prince of Medicine'. His most celebrated work is Al-Qanun Fil-Tibb or "the Canon of Medicine." He is one of the greatest names in the history of medicine. He could repeat the Quraan by heart when he was ten years old, and by twelve he had disputed in law and logic. He found that medicine was an easy subject, not hard and thorny (Osler 9 . "When I found a difficulty," he says, "I reffered to my notes and prayed to the creator" (qtd. Osler 9 . His book was long and lengthy, testifying many aspects of medicine. He classifies efficient causes and symptoms of diseases. He said that diseases are caused by the imbalance of the four elementary qualities of hot, wet cold and dry in the body. Those caused by the faulty composition or conformation of bodily parts, and those caused by trauma. The cause of disease is categorize as either connected by the environment, regimen, and psychology. Among them are the traditional scheme of "non naturals" from air, food and drink, repletion and inanition, to the passions of the soul. His book also discuss concerns for the conservation of health: separate sections on pediatric, adult, and geriatric regimen. Avicenna provides twenty one fen on ailments distinctive to each major organs of the body-arranged from head to toe. (Siraisi 21-22). The "Black Death", in the middle of the fourteenth century ravaged Europe while the Christians stood helpless. Ibn-al- Khatib, a physician of Granada composed a treaties in defence of the contagion theory and said: To those who say, "How can we admit the possibility of infection while the religious law denies it?" we reply that the existence of contagion is established by experience, investigation, the evidence on the senses and trustworthy reports. These facts constitute a sound argument. The fact of contagion becomes clear to the investigator who notices how he who establishes contact with afflicted gets the disease, whereas he who is not in contact remains safe, and how transmission through garments, vessels and earrings (qtd. Hitti 576). The circulation of blood and the idea of quarantine came from an empirical indication of contagion. It was discovered by Ibn al- Nafis. Ibn Juljul of Cordoba in 943 became a leading physician at the age of 24, compiled a book of special treaties on drugs found in al-Andalus, the Iberian Peninsula (science p23). Ibn-Masawayh wrote the oldest systematic treaties on opthamology. The book, titled al-Ashr Maqalat fi al-'Ayn (the ten treaties of the eye) was the earliest existing text book of opthmathology. In the curative use of drugs, some amazing advances were made by the Muslims. They have established the first apothecary shops, and founded the earliest school of pharmacy (Hitti 364). The Prince of Medicine, Avicenna, is himself a philosopher (Arabic falsafah). Philosophy at the time is defined as the knowledge of the true cause of things as they really are (Hitti 369). He is the first of the Arabic language who created a philosophical system which is really complete and whole (Khan 5). "It is noteworthy that Avicenna to his independent intellectual attainments was without undue modesty" (Fakhry 149). From his initial study of logic, he turned to the study of physics, and metaphysics entirely on his own. He became the mentor of many senior physician at the age of sixteen. By the age of eighteen, he had mastered logic, physics and mathematics, so there was nothing left for him to learn except to concentrate on metaphysics. His major philosophical treaties is Kitab al-Shifa or the Book of Healing , known in Latin by the title Sufficienta. It is an encyclopedia of Islamic-Greek learning in the eleventh century, ranging from logic to mathematics (Fakhry 149-150). Another greatest patron of Philosophy and science in the history of Islam is Caliph Al-Mamun. Son of Caliph Harun al- Rashid, he encouraged on holding disputes in court on logical, legal, and grammar (Rahman 182). He express with liberal mindedness, great openness and equanimity (Fakhry 23). He established in Baghdad his famous Bayt al-Hikmah (house of wisdom) (Rahman 4), a combination library and academy which in many respect is an important educational institution (Hitti 310). This library contains books on all subjects-literature, specifically Islamic sciences, natural sciences, logic, philosophy, an many other subjects of thoughts (Rahman 182-183). The greatest figure in the history of Islamic philosophy and reaction to Neo Platonism is Imam al-Ghazali - a jurist, theologian, philosopher and mystic. He said that the "Fiqh" is the daily bread of believing soul, while the doctrine is only as valuable as a medicine for the sick (De Boer 39). He also said that he is being seized by the desire for the truth. He resolved to search for a "certain knowledge" upon which the object known in manner is not open to doubt at all. So if the truth were to be challenged by a miracle-maker, it would withstand its claim - solid (Fakhry 244-245). Fundamentally, al-Ghazali affirmed an agnosticism about the ultimate and absolute nature of God. This need for religious certainty impelled al-Ghazali to mysticism, and led him back to the discovery of the Quraanic conception of God. This revealed nature of God is constituted by the Divine Names and Attributes (Rahman 95). The first genuine philosopher to write in Arabic was al- Kindi (Fakhry 9). He is the first peripatetic in Islam. He is related in many ways to Mutazilite Dialecticians and the Neo- Pythagorean Natural-Philosophers (DeBoer 97). He was a man of extraordinary erudition which communicated observations as a geographer, a historian of civilization and a physician (De Boer 99). Kindi is more than a philosopher. He was a chemist, an optician and a music theorist (Hitti 370). "He was in no respect a creative genius" (De Boer 99). The influence of al-Kindi as author and teacher is mainly through his Mathematics, Geography and Medicine (De Boer 105). The intellectual history of the Arabs which the development of philosophy and science in the Near East virtually begins with the rise of Islam. Islam not only provide the Arabs with bold world-view, but thrust them the cultural stage of the ancient world and set before them their scientific and cultural treasures. The first generation of Muslim scholars dedicated themselves wholly to the fixing of a canon based primarily on the Quran. This is because of the overwhelming sacredness of the Quraan and the traditions of Prophet Muhammad (Fakhry 1-3). To the Muslim scholars whose work is shown, the Quraan is the source of all knowledge - the revelation of God (Science 32). Many hints was given in the Quran as a prove of the All Knowing. God says: "Verily God Knows The secrets of the Heavens And earth:and God sees well all That ye do" (Quran 65:1 . Some of the hints that were mentioned are: "Do not the unbeliever see that the heavens and earth Were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water Every living thing. Will they not believe?" (Quran 21:30). God phrase " Do not They Think...", in certain parts of the Quran after illuminating natural phenomena unthought of by man. Such hints enhanced man's curiosity and probably fueled their quest for knowledge. As the roots of knowledge has been established, the branches and leaves then flourished onto todays advance technology. Such roots must never be forgotten as without solid foundation, no pillars can be built and lived on. I COULD GO ON AND ON ABOUT THE MUSLIM MEN AND WOMENS CONTRIBUTION TO SCIENCE BUT THEIR WOULD BE NO POINT. I AM CONDEMING THIS MURDER IN THE NAME OF ALL MUSLIMS, HAPPY NOW JESUSLAND JOE? I WOULD LIKE YOU TO CONDEMN THE MURDER OF MUSLIMS IN PALESTINE, IN BOSNIA AND OTHER EASTERN-EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AND IN INDIA. We should all realize that terrorism is global not ISlamic. http://www.netmuslims.com/info/contributions.html If you think that Islam is not peacefull give me any verse in the qura'an or from the sayings of the prophet that justifies violence or denies the right of education for females. http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/christ/bible_precepts.htm Howie, how shall I make Dave's day? Too right Graeme the Taliban have shown themselves to be cowards and scums. I have no problem with truthfull, unbiased comments like that yet if you were to say that about Muslims that would be wrong as to the fact: my great-granfather was a strict muslim yet he opened the first all-female school, a boys school and a library in a town in Pakistan, he also opened schools in Qatar, Oman, Tunisia, Mali,India, Sri-Lanka and a few other countries. So is my great-grandfather not a mulsim because he worked for the betterment of countries, sjould he have been killed by the Taliban? Yes I was and still am sober when I made the statement Jesusland Joe. Oh well that sums up the whole debate apart from greyroosters comment; that just proves that 'SOME' people can't be talked into reasonable debate but the have to resort to crude language and childish comments. C U ALL AROUND

15 The worst enemies of Islam are from within - The Reverend Amos Brown said in no uncertain terms that America must ask herself what she has done either wittingly or unwittingly to incur the wrath and hate of people around the world. Muslims on the other hand, generally prefer to attack the West as the sole reason for their problems when the truth is we are bankrupt as a religious community and our spiritual bankruptcy has led to our inability to even deliver the message of Islam to Westerners in a time when they were giving us platforms to do so. In Pakistan We Have Selective Islam - The biggest factor that drove people like me away from religion was the selective Islam practised by most of its preachers. In other words, there was a huge difference between what they practised and what they preached. Also, rather than explaining the philosophy behind the religion, there was an over emphasis on rituals. I feel that humans are different; to animals whereas the latter can be drilled, humans need to be intellectually convinced. That is why the Quran constantly appeals to reason. The worst of course, was the exploitation of Islam for political gains by various individuals or groups. Muslims Silent While Muslims Die - The Muslim world has been exposed for its impotence, incompetent leadership, lack of Islamic honor, dignity, courage, and hypocritical support for Palestine, Chechnya, Kashmir, and even the Afghan refugees. Muslims Debate Diverging Loyalties - Muslims who urge their communities to engage in self-introspection are being labelled traitors, while protestors say too much public self-criticism will divide their community, play into the hands of those they call "Muslim bashers" and weaken their efforts to influence U.S. foreign policy Seeing with Both eyes, by Abdul Hakim Murad - The Dajjal, as everyone knows, has only one eye. Those ulema who are concerned to understand and apply their intuition rather than simply to act as historical relay stations have sometimes interpreted this attribute as a reference to the characteristic sickness of decadent religious communities; a sickness that will necessarily be at its most prevalent as the end of time approaches. The Dajjal represents, in human form, a cosmic possibility which occurs throughout history, gathering momentum as Prophetic restorations are forgotten, until, for a time during the last days, he is the one-eyed man who is king. Moving Beyond Theory - "In Islam, you..." "Islam teaches that the state is..." "A Fatwa issued by a scholar in..." There is always someone propounding on what Islam teaches, how Islam shapes our behavior and what Islam says about halal/haram issues. But we never seem to move beyond the theoretical. Stopping the onslaught of missionaries in Muslim Homes - The Christians are not the problem. The Muslims are the problem because they are failing their own people in the way of establishing permanent institutions for the teaching of Islam. Let's look at ourselves because we have no control over what the Christians do, but we do have control over what we do with Muslims. Be Careful who you Call a Kafir - The fastest way to leave Islam is to wrongly call another person a Kafir. Waste no time debating what a good Muslim should be. Be one! "What Color Was The Dog?" - Why Muslims are in such a dire state today The Pitfalls of Emotion - Leaving the heart as the centre of decision leaves its owner vulnerable to the whispering of Shaytan. His choice of right and wrong, of punishment and mercy, does not waver with his own temper and emotions. Rather, his choice is decisive, based on the Criterion which is pure and just and universal. Had it been any other way, Islam could not have withstood the onslaught from its enemies, just as every other religion was ultimately corrupted according to the whims and desires of its followers. Who is Responsible? - "You have health care and hospitals, but the first health care center was in the home. The first store was in the home. The first government was in the home. The first governmental order was in the home. The first school was in the home. The first bank was in the home. The first transportation was home. If the home is run well, society does not have to worry." Good Deed that will lead to Hell - A hadith which relates how the consequences of committing sin, as opposed to doing good deeds, could lead a person to be successful in the life hereafter. Arrogance against others and mistreatment of animals - List of Hadiths and Quranic verses which severely prohibit mistreatment of other people and of animals Muslims in the Mirror - Prejudice in the Muslim community - Islam is the most anti-racist and anti-prejudicial way of life. Islamic history testifies to the openness Muslims have shown towards people of different cultures and religions. Yet, there is a problem in the Ummah today. Prejudices are not the problems of others. They have become the very sad reality amongst a number of Muslims as well. Frustrations of Converts, Complacency of the Ummah - How sincere is our worship of God if we pray 5 times a day but when a new Muslim turns to us for friendship, we become judgemental and assume they cannot be worth as much as "us born Muslims." They say a man's true nature is revealed when he is confronted with dealing with those who are of no direct importance to him. How do you treat those who are not important to you? Ethnic Culture Versus Islam - Islam is a religion. But, to many, Islam is a culture. It is something they do out of habit rather than out of the education they have received. Sometimes even the culture over-rides religion and they rush out to implement a cultural practice as if it would be unIslamic in not doing so. Difference of Opinion: A Cause of Weakness? - Is it Wrong for Muslims to Differ? In short, No. Evidence for this is an incident in which the Prophet (SAW) witnessed the companions disputing, but did not rebuke them for doing so. The Confusion of the Scholars - Have you ever been confronted with such stupidity that you were speechless? What about Muslims? Are there any incredibly stupid actions which have built up to a dangerous level? Of course! I'm going to point out how some (not all) "scholars" have steered us wrong and taken us away from the path of Islam. It's time to face an uncomfortable truth: Muslims can be racists- When were Muslims like me going to tell the world how badly Muslims treat people of other faiths? Muslims have been far too reluctant to condemn the persecution of people of other religions in some Islamic countries, and it is time we spoke up. Divide and Conquer - Muslims are supposed to be brothers and sisters. We are not supposed to oppress one another by making it impossible to practice our religion. When someone denies an aspect of Islam to the non-believers it gives them a chance to hurt us or oppress us. It gives them a basis for their oppression - a precedent. Muslims Wake up - Too many are trying to "make the deen easier" by watering it down. Necessity in Islam is defined as life and death - and only as much as is necessary to sustain life. Allah Bless America - With Islam - Muslims were like dogs at the feet of their master, waiting for any scrap he might throw from his table. He was singing "God Bless America"!!!!! God Bless America! The Ummah is a stalled car - Sadly, this is our current state. At the most, we are idling on the shoulder of the road, and even that is a generous description. It seems we have forgotten the glorious early days of Islam when the proverbial Muslim engine was running at maximum efficiency. The Meaning of Pride in Poverty - Muslims should not reject economic realities and they should try to earn a living for themselves and their families. Pride in poverty rather means that they should be prepared to become poor in the way of God and truth and if and when they do become poor they should not be ashamed of their poverty but feel proud of it. The Living Character of Islamic Tradition - A great deal of controversy, confusion and disunity among Muslims is caused by a careless use of the argument that such and such a thing did not exist in the days of the Prophet and the rightly guided caliphs or was not allowed by them and therefore it is un-Islamic. Often this argument is used with a measure of hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty.... How Charitable are Muslims? A big hint ... NOT VERY. We do very poorly compared to the Americans whom many Muslims do nothing but backbite and slander Zakat and Charity should be Instruments for Developing the Poor But affluence has made Muslims arrogant and negligent Muslims Earn A Distorted Image How blind we are to the extent to which we have deviated from the example of the Holy Prophet The Women of Afghanistan: Whose Concern Is It, Anyway?This is a crisis that both our Muslim brothers & the media of the west is to blame for. This article gives a balanced opinion showing the drawbacks of both sides. Muslims on the Internet: The Good, the Bad...the Ugly This article shows how Muslims are misbehaving and acting irresponsibly on the Internet. This is a shame since the Internet is a fantastic tool for Dawah. Women are Falling Behind In Pakistan! This article sheds light on the crisis that Pakistani women are facing - the situation is terrible and again, this is a great paradox since Pakistan pays lip-service to being an "Islamic" country. A Quranic society does not treat its women this way. Obligation of a Muslim Towards a Disbeliever This article gives details on how we should treat Non-Muslims. Many Muslims are rude and unfair toward Non-Muslims and this is WRONG. Don't forget that when our Prophet received his first revelation, almost EVERYONE was a disbeliever. Do you think he could have converted so many people if treated them the way some Muslims today treat Non-Muslims? Women are ABUSED in the name of Islam This is a article that briefly describes how women are mistreated in the name of religion i.e. Muslim men - fathers, brothers, husbands, etc. are using religion as an excuse to abuse women. This article is good because the Non-Muslim writer points out the various examples of abuse but concludes firmly, that what these Muslim men are doing is against Islam. The Unholy war between Iraq and Iran This article shows how irresponsibly leaders such as Khomeini and Saddam Hussein act, in the expense of ruining the reputation of Islam - a religion they claim to represent. Disunity over Eid Date Reflects More Muslims remain divided even on this special occasion. An Islamic Perspective on the Ego The Qur'an and Sunnah attack the root of the problem by reminding the human being, in many places, of his origin (mire, clay, a worthless drop of fluid, etc.) so that he would have no reason to become arrogant WE AS MUSLIMS ARE TO BLAME NOT ISLAM.

1 Wretchard has an interesting post about making decisions under conditions of uncertainty that applies to this error, as well as the general problem of accurate reporting and intelligence. The defense is unlikely to occur to MSM, however, because they need to ignore it in order to crucify the Bush Administration for "lying about Iraq's WMD." Well, at least not bothering to keep the database clean and up to date.

2 Rescue OPS are professionals. I personally doubt there would be a "mis-communication" between them - more like a cautious and reserved analysis constantly evolving during find/recovery stage which would take possibly several hours. Scratch this story deep enough, and I bet your gonna find an over-eager media in a rush to file a story - and the media sources being essentially each other. Read the media "stories" and the filler detail. Since the initial point of the story is wrong - the filler information is clearly manufactured - with the media sourcing each other. We have a lot of complaints about the media, but seldom do we acknowledge their incompetence and laziness. This is a classic.

3 This morning on CNN some of the relatives of the victims said the CEO of the mining corporation relayed the message that the twelve men were alive, personally.

4 The search is on for a scapegoat for MSM CYA. Note - Command CTR - presspool - live cameras - SAT links - no record - it didn't come from there - so where? A rumor was all they needed - then they quote/source each other - once on the air local people believe it - MSM mentality - if people believe it - it must be true - a circle by another name. Back to the story - since it wasn't true - all the after filler 'bout hospitals, conditions, technical reports were - all MSM manufactured.

5 So how can we blame this one on the europeans and socialism in general ?

6 ????

7 One of our customers here and I can't say sorry has four employees that were married to miners who died.

8 The MSM demonstrate their "vetting" abilities and rigorous checking of sources.

1 Let me just remind you guys. That Saddam was bad, he had WMD. He could nuke the UK in 45 mins, just like that was a load of bollocks, so is this whole Iran and N. Korea rubbish. Finally lets remember Iran. The FIRST DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED PRIME MINISTER OF THE COUNTRY WAS OVERTHROWN BY THE USA BECAUSE OF NATNIOLIZING THE OIL and replaced by the very western Shah of Iran, WHO WAS OBERTHROWN AND REPLACED BY THE WESTERN BACKED AYATOLLAH KHOMENEI.

2 Jaaaaaaack Abramoff is squealing, Republicans get pwned, coooooorrupted government, gets blown up on the walls. I bet he won't live till Friday, surely he'll be dead, shot down like John Kennedy, or slave-freeing poor Abe. Soon available on über-copyrighted, spywared CDs and DVDs from Sony BMG. Also tune in for "Abramoff is going to die"-music video, 10 pm every day on NBC.

3 In other news, 99%-certainly-Christian Greek anarchists blow up car of Finlands ambassador. Greek authorities try to assure that the Finnish embassy was not especially targeted. A Finn still feeling hung over after holidays... 90% alcohol drinks are not meant to be drunk in mug sizes.

4 Yes Amaad, the whole thing with Iran is a "load of bollocks" as you eloquently put it. As Europe will be one of the first areas that Iran's nuclear warheads will be capable of reaching, you had best hope that indeed that is the case. Iran is preparing to be a Nuclear armed nation, not only are they purchasing weapon systems capable of missile defense, they're also shopping for missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads to greater increasing distances. Nth. Korea is an example why Iran should not be allowed to possess nuclear weapons, "you cannot put the genie back in the bottle" and once they have them, they'll use them as a bargaining chip in round after round of negotiations, they will of course never give them up. Then you have to look at Iran's promise to prolificate nuclear technologies to all Islamic nations, not an idea anyone should relish.

5 The article is way to obscure on details. What "western European nations"? What "leading industrialists"? They're saying, "We have a leaked, sensitive document 55 pages long, but we're not telling you any of the 'detailed assessments' we have in the document. We'll just stick with generalities to freak you out." All it tells me is that if Iran is still "seeking" parts and knowledge, they don't have anything concrete yet.

6 Hey amaad, tell your mother that her last goat-blowing video sold well, but she needs to take a bath, as the goats are complaining about the smell. Finn, you're just a fucking moron and not worth the effort of a good, biting comment. I hope being a dhimmi works out for you, which it should, as you seem to like fellating muslims.

7 Amaad, The Brits wanted Mossadegh out, not the U.S. Their money was at stake, not ours. We helped them get rid of him because that was the price of their continued help in the Korean War. That doesn't make it right, but the people who own the blame for the abuse Iran took up to 1953 are the Brits, not the Americans. Where do you get this idea that the "West" backed Khomeini? Khomeini's only tie to the West prior the revolution was his short stay in France after the Shah forced him out of Iraq. France never "supported" him. They just gave him asylum.

8 Nice writng Shannon. improbulus go f**** yourself. The Ayatollah was given the support of the USA after his touching speech on 'Islamic democracy'. This suprised the Shah because he thought the USA would respect a man in a suit more. 'taken from 'the days that shook the world' BBC3

9 As for terrorism: you fail to remember its global, not islamic. There are Christian, Jewish, Black, White, Nationalistic, Communist etc terrorist groups. S0 THINK BEFORE YOU ARE PREJUDICED AGAINST MUSLIMS. IF YOU ARE DRIVEN TO HATE BY THE ACTIONS OF A FEW SO CALLED 'MUSLIMS' THEN YOU HAVE FELL INTO THE TERORISTS T

10 Afgahanistan is now a pothole in the ground beacuse of the USA not the Soviets. Soviets invaded, mujahideen rebelled, USA gave financial and political backing, soviets left, USA left, Afghanistan turns into a pothole. i think I know why the Afghani's would be pissed with America.

11 Muslims going to America and Europe are faced with a flood of questions about Islam. People have many ways of asking these question and different motivations for doing so, but their questions are essentially as follows: Why does Islam permit polygamy? Why is a woman counted as half a man in matters of inheritance and when she gives testimony? Why does Islam “belittle” women? Is Islam a religion of terror since it prescribes jihad? Who should we believe: Sunnis or Shiites? Questions like these are what occupy their minds when they think about Islam, since the Western media has actively maligned Islam as a religion of lust and blood and nothing else. When our Muslim youth go to their countries, they often find such questions awkward and try to evade them. They might say things like: Permission for polygamy is conditional upon justice between wives and justice between wives is impossible to achieve. Allah says: “You will not be able to be just between women even if you strive to do so.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 129] Whatever is conditional upon something impossible is impossible itself. Therefore, polygamy is forbidden in Islam. In many cases, Muslims will come across a strange opinion on a matter and promote it simply because it is more conciliatory. When I visited America, I found that many Muslims who did not have correct or sufficient Islamic knowledge suffered from such difficulties. They really did not know what to do. I used to tell them the following: Why should we be on the defensive? Why don’t we adopt a more assertive attitude? If they confront us one question, we should respond with ten of our own. If they ask us about jihad, we should ask them about America’s openly aggressive policies in many parts of the world, not to mention all of their covert operations. If they ask you about polygamy, ask them about the sexual promiscuity that is rife in their societies that has brought humiliation to so many women and allowed men to absolve themselves of their responsibilities towards them and towards their children? If they ask you about inequalities in inheritance, ask them about the reality in their own country where a woman earns only 60% of what a man earns for doing the exact same job. I do not mean that we should be evasive. However, it is not good for you to respond when you are in a state of weakness and difficulty where there is a danger that you might answer falsely and misrepresent Allah’s religion in order to appease someone else. You can move on to a more advanced level of discourse and demonstrate that Islamic teachings are the solution to the problems that they are suffering from. For instance, according to some assessments, there are 119 women to every 100 men in the United States. In some states, the number is more like 160 women to every 100 men. Polygamy is the solution to the problems that ensue under such circumstances, since it requires some men to assume responsibility for more than one woman and to be as just as humanly possible in doing so. We can stress how Islam teaches equality between all people. There is no preference for anyone over anyone else except by a person’s piety and virtue. This is the way to do away with the problem of racism that people in the West suffer from. The Islamic teachings about jihad are what uproots oppression and guarantees people the freedom to think and to choose their religion for themselves without being under any compulsion. Islam seeks to have people freely submit themselves to their Creator and not be placed under the subjugation of any worldly dictator, race, tribe, or nationality. There are a few points that I would like to emphasize: 1. Matters of Islamic law are established by the unambiguous texts of the Qur’ân and Sunnah. No one, regardless of who he is, has the right to change, add, or subtract anything to placate anyone’s desires or fears. When someone who calls others to Islam opts to misinform people about Allah’s rulings, he is doing a disservice to Islam. He is also deceiving people. He has no right to meddle in matters of Islamic Law that are the jurisdiction of Allah alone. 2. Matters that fall within the scope of juristic discretion and allow for differences of opinion should be presented in a balanced and objective manner by the person who is calling others to Islam. He should take circumstances into consideration when doing so. He should not select the most severe and restrictive opinion on a matter and present it to the people as if it is Islam itself, especially when he is trying to endear Islam to the people’s hearts. 3. Our objective should be to convince others of the correctness of the Islamic ruling so that they will accept it. We must employ all of our knowledge and reasoning abilities in achieving this objective. We must provide all the relevant facts. We can employ to our advantage other areas of knowledge that we find to be of benefit in convincing people of Islam. This may inlude discussions of the Qur’ân's scientific miracles, statistical information, circumstances and experiences, and rational arguments. There is nothing wrong with this. In fact, this is an integral part of conveying the truth to the people. 4. We must instill in the hearts of our young people complete and total confidence in every aspect of Islam, from the most general teachings of their faith to the most specific. We must dispel any sense of weakness or deficiency that they might possibly feel at the hands of some of those who dispute with them. We do a disservice to Islam if we lead the people to believe that Islam is close to the life that they already living and that the Islamic approach to life is not much different than their own. This only makes the people feel that Islam is unnecessary for them and encourages them to turn away from it. They are, in fact, trying to escape from the hellish aspects of the lives that they are already leading. They need to be presented with an alternative. When they ask about Islam or even about something else, they are looking for a way out. They are looking for something to rescue them. Therefore, we must present Islam to them with all of its uniqueness and show them clearly how it differs from their own life experiences. In this way, we encourage them to think about Islam. We must present Islam to them in a logical manner with clear and insightful arguments. Our responsibility ends here. Indeed, this was the extent of the responsibility of Allah’s Messengers (peace be upon them). Allah says to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him): “It is naught your duty but to convey the message.” [Sûrah al-Shûrâ: 48] “It is your duty only to convey the message. It is upon Us to take account.” [Sûrah al-Ra`d: 40] “So admonish them. You are but one who admonishes. You do not control their affairs.” [Sûrah al-Ghâshiyah: 21-22] It is not necessary for us to fancy that the whole world will convert to Islam at our hands. However, we must be eager to guide them and we must seek to do so in every possible and permissible way. We should perfect our way of presenting Islam to them, taking into account the age, circumstances, and level of knowledge of those whom we are addressing. We must present to them the noble Islamic values of freedom, justice, and human dignity and prove to them that Islam is superior to everything that they already know. Above and beyond all of this, we must conduct ourselves in the best, most ethical manner and present our own lives as a practical example of moral virtue. Unfortunately, many Muslims call people to Islam with their tongues while pushing them away from it with their ignoble, contradictory conduct and with their narrow-mindedness.

12 First of all don't talk crap up about Islam. Read between the lines of the quraan. Don't make up phony hadith. ISlam isn't bad.

13 Back to the topic point - I have serious problems with a report in the Guardian - long on claims and totally absent on details. The Guardian will eagerly play both sides of the street to stir the pot.

14 WHY SHOULD I BELIVE BUSH THIS TIME. HE HAD 'CLEAR' and 'CONCSIVE' PROOF THAT SADDAM HAD NUKES, WHERE THE F*** ARE THEY?

15 Stay on topic - don't let Amaad divert you into an idiotic argument about caparative islam.

16 Yes, the lack of specifics in the Guardian report is curious. Perhaps they're planning a series. Amaad: the source of Islam's bad press is 9/11 and 7/7, not the western media. The American MSM have bent over backwards to accommodate Islam. That's why there's a media embargo on 9/11 images. I have tried to find something redeeming in Islam, but failed. It appears to be a corrosive, third-world cult that thrives on ignorance.

17 There are good people that are Muslims, nonetheless Islam is not peaceful. Eventhough Islamofascists are a minority of Muslim they still represent Muslims in the millions. Unlike communist, neo-nazi, white supremacist etc, etc groups; Islamofascists are extremely well financed by millionaire and billionaire fellow cadres. As for the religion of peace claim by Muslims go to this website - http://www.thereligionofpeace.org - to see the true ethics of Islam. Islamofascist are not nice people and their intent is world domination with an overseeing Caliphate. Not good for unbelieving Muslims who will to choose between conversion or death or dhimmitude.

18 Oops that website is http://www.thereligionofpeace.com, not dot org.

19 Afgahanistan is now a pothole in the ground beacuse of the USA not the Soviets. How is that again? The Arabs flocked to Afghanistan like it was some third-world, donkey meat, kebab cart and hung around like a bad cumin smell. You can also look at their neighboring country Pakistan for pretty much all of Afghanistan problems, seeing as they occupied, and created their own Government in Afghanistan, and created a third-world, medieval, knuckle-dragging society where women were treated worse than goats, and "evils" such as music and art were banned. You have some huge nuts, sunshine.

20 Amaad, It seems unlikely that the U.S. supported Khomeini prior to the revolution for several reasons: We were already invested in the Shah, and Khomeini started denouncing the U.S. shortly after he started denouncing the Shah (about 1963). Khomeini kept claiming the shah was our puppet. He was wrong, but he had no way of knowing that. The U.S. historically *hates* the notion of political disruption in the Gulf to the extent of propping up some pretty oppressive monarchies. We weren't willing to topple the shah for democracy any more than we are willing to support democracy in Saudi or Bahrain. Serious questions of revolution in Iran didn't rise in the U.S. until the latter half of 1979, and our state department was encouraging the shah to put down the massive autumn protests right up until his army fell apart and he fled the county weeks later. What you are interpreting as support for Khomeini is really just State Department double-talk. Khomeini was talking democracy, and the U.S. has to approve of democracy, even when we are working with a dictator. Compare the situation with that of Ferdinand Marcos (though the shah was a good deal more benign than Marcos.)

21 So Amaad Since the topic story (AS PER THE GUARDIAN) is about Iran aquiring missile and nuclear weapons technology from Europe and other sources - what is your opinion? Or is that too fuckin' much to ask? Thank God muslims don't play baseball - otherwise you would be giving use box scores too.

22 Hey amaad, I heard the reason that so many muslim guys are such psychopathic retards is because you all get used like girls when you're young, like your pedophile prophet mohammed (bacon grease upon him) did to poor little Aisha. I guess being used like a girl would mess a guy up, so it figures that you're all such pathetic losers who abuse women and pretty much hate everyone. Maybe you should just kill yourself to end the pain?

23 Amaad: Don't forget to give some credit to the Afghans themselves. We stay we are asked to leave. We leave it's our fault for leaving them hanging. Blaming the US for everything is counter productive. Is it not reasonable to suggest that these countries are due some blame as well.

24 Oh, poor 'as unlikely as possible', disappointment, terrible disappointment. Crummy insults, since it's always that same stuff when you people get stumped and angry. Dhimmi dhimmi dhimmi and some sex stuff, possibly because it's extremely taboo for certain fanatics and those who desperately want more of it. Me? Nah, enough nudity on various screens to not value sex stuff too much, despite lack of manual labour related to the subject.

25 You all hear amaad guys, islam isn't bad, so it must be Mennonites cutting peoples' heads off and blowing up kids and stuff. Hey amaad, is your sister still prostituting in Africa?

26 I also wanted to address the "man assumes responsibility for more then one woman" stuff. Ok men should be responsible and that's all honorable and good. However the attitude that women are helpless without men or a burden is the core problem. If your mindset is that women are incapable and a burden what do you expect? that they will be treated well. Women can and do just about anything and surely in some families the man could be called the "burden".

27 Howie nice seeing you. talk t a later time, busy. Hondo wtf. I do play baseball and soocer.

28 dave your comments are absurd. Pakistan have caught many more Al-qaeda leaders than the USA. Pakistan accept Afghani refugees. Oh and by the way most of the natural gas going to America goes through Afghanistan, turkeminestan and PAKISTAN. Finally Pakistan did not make the government. “A senior delegation from the Taleban movement in Afghanistan is in the United States for talks with an international energy company that wants to construct a gas pipeline from Turkmenistan across Afghanistan to Pakistan. A spokesman for the company, Unocal, said the Taleban were expected to spend several days at the company's headquarters in Sugarland, Texas.” “Taleban in Texas for talks on Gas Pipeline,” BBC News, December 4, 1997 (Sugarland is 22 miles outside Houston.) THE PRESIDENT OF AFGHANISTAN IS A SHARE HOLDER IN THE CARLYLE GROUP. A SHARE HOLDER IN THE MANY OF BUSH'S GROUPS AND FORMER GROUPS. YOU GUYS SHOULD SERIOUSLY WATCH FARENHEIT 9/11. IT'LL GET RID OF THE CRAP IN YOUR BRAIN.

1 When it comes to moral outrage, 3 kinds of victim dominate British journalism: Women, children, and animals. Or, in other words, every living thing on Earth except men.

2 it all sounds like a perfect scenario for a porno movie.

3 "It will be interesting to see how the British public reacts if it's found that people are discriminated against because they're ugly." If that were the case, how did Camilla not get thrown out?

4 Hot broads don't blowthemselves up.

5 Considering that most British girls are about dog ugly, and that the good looking ones usually immigrate to America, it's probably just a measure to breed some good looks back into the Brits.

6 Who would stoop low enough to have sex with a muslim. YuK!~!

7 I can't believe I never thought of that idea.

8 british girls are lovely.....your sounding like a batty boy, maximus.

9 .....and judging by this site im just glad british women are not a bunch of child molesters, unlike some.......

10 that "cool mom" is a bit of a hound isnt she.....not exactly an oil painting. i wouldnt touch her with yours....

1 I was just reviewing a colleague's syllabus for a course I begin teaching in two weeks on Oral and Interpersonal skills, and I laughed at the page at the end that had a twenty-question quiz about his basic personal statistics, the kind many instructors give in a short speech at the beginning of the course. I laughed because I knew he was giving his speech to students, many of whom mentally bugged out while waiting to hear what was directly required of them, only to find out that they had missed a wealth of points in what they thought to be insignificant minutiae. I'm not sure I'd say I've felt buried alive, but I've surely felt the barrier of zoning out people tend to do that I associate with media overload - I think of it as a muffler.

1 January 3rd, 2006 1:53 pm U.S. Air Strike Kills Iraqi Family of 12 Attack Was Directed at Suspected Bombers, U.S. Military Says By A Washington Post Special Correspondent TIKRIT, Iraq, Jan. 3 -- A U.S. air strike that Americans said was directed at suspected bombers killed a family of 12 in their home north of Baghdad Monday night, Iraqi officials said Tuesday. A Washington Post special correspondent watched as rescuers removed the bodies of women and children still in their nightclothes. Lt. Col. Barry Johnson, a U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad, confirmed the air strike in the Baiji area, about 155 miles north of the capital, but said he had no immediate information on casualties. In a statement, the U.S. military said an unmanned drone in the area had tracked three men digging in a road about 9 p.m. Monday. Insurgents commonly plant bombs in such craters to catch passing convoys of U.S. and Iraqi officials. The military called in air support, tracked the three men as they entered a building nearby and attacked the building with precision-guided munitions, the military said. Maj. Abdul Jabbar Kaissi, a security officer with Salahuddin governorate, said the air strike killed the 12-member family of Ghadban Nahi Kaissi, a farmer and relative of the governor of Salahuddin province, Ahmad Mahmud Kaissi. U.S. forces surrounded the area Tuesday morning as bulldozers removed rubble and emergency crews pulled out bodies. The Post special correspondent watched as crews removed the bloody body of an older woman, her head covered in a black scarf, and two younger women in nightclothes with their heads uncovered for sleep. Rescuers brought out the bodies of three boys on their thin mattresses. They were wrapped in the blankets in which search teams said the boys had been sleeping when the explosives hit. The boys appeared younger than 10. Residents and Iraqi officials said there were no insurgents in the home. The area is one where insurgents are present and stage frequent attacks. Six other houses in the area were damaged, and two residents wounded, authorities said. U.S. air strikes in Iraq increased almost five-fold over the course of 2005, going from 25 last January to 120 in November. The U.S. military says it uses only precision-guided munitions and makes every effort to minimize civilian casualties. Critics say civilian casualties are almost inevitable in air strikes in cities and towns, and they fault the military for not tracking civilian deaths from those strikes to better learn how to reduce them.

2 You left out he part where we found an IED in the area where these men were digging Mr. Sucks. So rather than blame us maybe the men who planted the bomb put these people in danger. So there were no "men" in the house just women and Children. Likely story.

3 Get me the ISP of this idiot.

4 Collateral damage - unfortunate - but I can live with it. I would like to know if we "wacked" the two targets - I'd be a little pissed if we "missed". Those missiles cost good money.

5 Oh forgot - thats a lot of damage for one precision missile (possibly a Hellfire) - any "secondary" explosions - or is that too fuckin' much info to ask for?

6 Fortunately reverting to said type of action is relatively rare (always collateral risks - try to avoid). Fortunately HK Nightcrawler activities has become "extremely" successful.

7 Heh. NO JIHAD FOR JOO!!!

8 ... and there is no MSM out on the road at 3 in the morning all by their lonesome in the middle of nowhere.

9 9/11 was collateral damage hondo. msm won't leave the green zone.

10 Gee Whiz! Sooooo brilliant! I have absolutely no problem with you, libs, & leftists proclaiming that loudly and proudly throughout America from sea to shining sea. I'll even buy you a bullhorn for that brilliance. Please do with my blessing.

1 It's looking likely that Iran is going to get rocked, and instead of shutting his mouth, and doing the clandestine program, their leader is almost begging for a Tomahawk to hit his house.

2 Looks like it's just about time for a good spread of tactical nukes.

1 Since when did truth and reason work with Democrats -- or the Old Media?

2 Timeline is important - CIA did have "problems" coming out of '90s and it takes a bit to straighten out. But key is ALL after 9/11 immediately - ALL targeting AQ and islamic friends and associates (and not deviating! - this is important!) ... BULK of OPS up front (9/12 -'04) - current OPS clearly implied by all as scaled back ... AND ONGOING! (DON'T BACK DOWN BUSH! LET THEM CALL YOUR HAND (IN PUBLIC!) If all that holds - lib/left goes BDS - EVERYBODY else goes "Yeah! So what!" Terror free at home is NOT by luck - and everyone KNOWS that (though some attempt (poorly) to imply otherwise ... "devil's in the details" and the "details (successes) are currently classified ... ... unless "forced" out (in '06)? I still believe there is an element of "planting" involved here ... hondo would do it - but I'm a devious smart MoFu - and and libs all know Bush/Cheney/Rove & Co. are morons - right? Big problems for DEM/lib/left - tie-in with Iraq minimal to non-existant ... program totally AQ, 9/11 aftermath & WOT! Predominate words put out by opposition - SPYING ON US RESIDENTS! CITIZENS used sparingly and generic .. this is No accident! Does our resident Dem/libs think non-conservative middle Americans are "going to give a flying fuck" the NSA is checking on "Momar & his brother Salad running that laundromat in Cleveland" in the aftermath of 9/11? I don't think so!

3 The book claims that the CIA knew that there were no WMDS but decided to ignore the fact and allow the administration to continue a logic that had no validity in reality. Too mnay facts are coming out about republican criminality...Abramoff is about to destroy the "republican revolution" to save his ass from years behind bars. Americans are waking up real fast to the corruption of the current administration and congress. Bush support from military drops to 54%, Murtha says he wouldnt join the army today, BUsh found to be illegally spying on US citizens, Delay and Frsit in legal troubles....man you guys are bumming come 06...do you smell impeachment too? ernie

4 No ice cream for you ernie!

5 And hondo, your racism blinds you, as Constitution supporting American citizens we deny the US executive the right to arbitrarily and illegally spy on ALL US citizens, including Muslims and folks of Abrab descent. The Constitution does not just guarantee rights for WASPY good toby keith listening republican texans. freedom and liberty, courage...over fearful needs for safety from a despot...ALWAYS! ernie

6 HA! NO SOUP FOR YOU TOO!

7 BUT A SONG ... Who's your daddy, who's your baby? Who's your buddy, who's your friend? And who's the one guy that you come runnin' to When your lovelife starts tumblin? I got the money if you got the honey Lets cut a deal lets make a plan Who's your daddy, who's your baby? Who's your buddy, who's your man?

8 "freedom, liberty and courage...." ernie talking about courage? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Oh that's rich.

9 good responses, i take it you agree with my points. this abramoff squealing thing should get real interesting. ANyone wanna take any guesses how many republican/democrat politicans go down in this? ernie

10 Wanna put your money where your big mouth is, ernie boy? Boy, where's your money?

11 Ha ha ha ha!

12 Please don't give him ice cream!

13 What are the chances that Risen will be jailed in an attempt to find out his sources? Probably wouldn't work as well with Risen because he will be receiving more money the more publicity he can get. As he sits in jail, he would be counting his money. How long could he be kept in jail for refusing to testify before a grand jury? Just for the life of the grand jury?

14 BUsh found to be illegally spying on US citizens, As usual Ernie misses the mark by about a hundred miles, as the targets have not been identified, only that the recipients were inside the United States, which obviously could encompass people inside the U.S on Work/University visa, tourist visas or even people here illegally, not to worry Ernie wants to give them all the rights of citizenship so he can stick it to Bush! (BDS) Did your mom feed you paint chip sandwiches for lunch Ernie?

15 "Abramoff" lil ernie, I bet you think they're still going to indict "Rove" too. bwahaha! keep dreaming. Abramoff will turn out to be just another one of many non-scandals you Libs keep working yourself up for. You're a pathetic sight.

16 Risen sounds like he might be a war profiteer in the mode of Richard Clarke. Oh, well. At least we know what the news peg is going to be for the next couple weeks.

17 "Richard Clarke" yup. The timing of all these leaks is always so conducive to their book sales. Disgusting. War profiteers sums it up well.

18 Hypothetically, would it be considered inciting to violence to state that anyone who knowingly and willfully damages the war effort and national security is a traitor and should be murdered in the street by a couple of guys in ski masks with ball bats? Hypothetically, of course...

19 The book claims that the CIA knew that there were no WMDS but decided to ignore the fact and allow the administration to continue a logic that had no validity in reality. OK, let's take that step by step. "The book claims" and so you're going to automatically believe it? Without a little more evidence to support it, I'll have to assume you accept that claim simply because it reinforces your own, already established view of things. I'm not even going to address the "No WMD'S" blather, it's rather tired by this point, and has been so well answered by so many others. But let's, for the sake of argument, pretend that the claim has even a sliver of validity. If the CIA failed to correct an assumption made by the administration, how does that translate to a fault on the part of the administration? Rather, it would be a stinging indictment of the CIA, and would raise serious questions (ones that are already being asked) as to why the CIA would intentionally sabotage the presidency. Too mnay facts are coming out about republican criminality...Abramoff is about to destroy the "republican revolution" to save his ass from years behind bars. I didn't know Harry Reid had changed parties. The fact is, there are dirty politicians on both sides of the political divide. So why did you bring it up? It has nothing to do with the Risen Book (making it a non sequitur), and it has nothing to do with the validity of any belief held by conservatives (making it an ad hominem). Two fallacies for the price of one! do you smell impeachment too? No, I just smell the same tired bullshit being spewed by your side that has been around since 2000.

20 From CNN [can't paste link] "CIA Director of Public Affairs Jennifer Millerwise Dyke issued this statement Tuesday about Risen's book: "Readers deserve to know that every chapter of 'State of War' contains serious inaccuracies. The author's reliance on anonymous sources begs the reader to trust that these are knowledgeable people. As this book demonstrates, anonymous sources are often unreliable. "It is most alarming that the author discloses information that he believes to be ongoing intelligence operations, including actions as critical as stopping dangerous nations from acquiring nuclear weapons. Setting aside whether what he wrote is accurate or inaccurate, it demonstrates an unfathomable and sad disregard for U.S. national security and those who take life-threatening risks to ensure it.""

1 Hillary Clinton - I resolve that I will pretend to be conservative no more that 50% of the time.

2 Noooo! I hope Pelosi gets so many-many more Botox treatments that her forehead splits open to reveal the alien space-bug inside.

3 I'm home sick and there was a special on the History Channel about the Gulag. What an idiot Durban is.

4 Howard Dean: I resolve not to call Republicans any more names. Okay so maybe just those that start with "Z". Yeah, that's it. I won't call them zebras .... or zulus.

5 Ted Kennedy- I will remember not to miss my swimming lessons, they were a real lifesaver before.

1 Agent Smith says "The virus is ME".

2 You've certainly behaved virus-like here.

3 Whoah baby look at that there virus threat. Why, that sucker's huge.

4 We need a patch against the Liberal virus.

5 Hmmmmm! Have "Me" finally transititioned to M2 - the Architect will be displeased.

6 Bluto's post Bluto's rules. I would imagine he has left 98% of your blabber. So you did not get your way one time and are whining? Now who is acting age two here?

7 Howie: I had left 99.9% of his blather. Now I've flushed all of his comments from my posts.

8 I take it your referring to artie - OK & not Smith - Smith I can deal with, and appreciate.

9 Yes, apparently artie has gone off his meds and is experiencing a major psychotic break. Of course, I always find it flattering when lib stalker fixates on me.

10 Show him your photo - that will spook him - nice shirt - is that the Hudson or Mohawk Valley.

11 Neither, it's the Hollywood Hills. We took a vacation to the left coast last year. I don't want to scare him off. I'm hoping he'll start a "Bluto Sucks" or "Dreadwatch" blog. Then I'll know that I've arrived.