July 13, 2005
Bad Backlash: Muslim Beaten to Death
Most of what Muslims call backlash is of the sticks and stones variety or things necessary to protect us from terrorism. This is not. This is very, very, very bad. Disgusting, if true. Guardian:
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A Muslim man has been beaten to death outside a corner shop by a gang of youths who shouted anti-Islamic abuse at him, the Guardian has learned.
Kamal Raza Butt, 48, from Pakistan, was visiting Britain to see friends and family. On Sunday afternoon he went to a shop in Nottingham to buy cigarettes and was first called "Taliban" by the youths and then set upon.
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1
I have my doubts about the story. Not necessarily that they didn't beat him, just about the details of the story.
Posted by: Editor at July 13, 2005 01:24 PM (adpJH)
2
"I was speaking out against senseless violence. Burning mosques down and beating people up in the night seems like a criminal hoodlum acts and beneath any civilized government. Mosques? Close 'em down. If the Brits want to deport Moslems for security or safety reasons, it should be done in an orderly matter, using force only if necessary--kind of like, 'No offence, but your presence here is no longer wanted, and you are not safe. No hard feelings. See ya.' I'm talking about the non-violent chaps here--not the rabid terrorist supporters who denounce the very country in which they live. They can be sent on a small raft back to whence they came."
The above was my post from a few days ago. This incident, if true, just makes everyone look bad.
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at July 13, 2005 01:42 PM (x+5JB)
3
This is terrible. And who do I blame? The muslim community themselves. Organize a fucking march, you idiots. Show the radical islamists (and racist anglo-saxons) whose side you're on. Until you do that, you will be eyed with suspicion, and in some cases beaten. If there is a backlash it's your own damn fault cause till now we've heard only crickets chirping or qualified "condemnations" of terror.
Posted by: Carlos at July 13, 2005 01:42 PM (8e/V4)
4
No offense, Carlos, but your post is akin to Muslims who say "9/11 was bad, but it's because of what Americans have been doing around the world." Basically, it's attempting to deflect the blame. Should the Muslim community march in protest of these jihadist scum who perpetrated these acts? Absolutely. But, it's not their fault that this guy was beaten to death. A crime is a crime.
Posted by: Venom at July 13, 2005 01:49 PM (dbxVM)
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No, Carlos. You sound like them. This man's killers are at fault.
Posted by: Oyster at July 13, 2005 01:51 PM (fl6E1)
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I might sound like them, but I'm right and they're wrong. That's the difference.
And by saying I "sound like them", you are implicitly agreeing with me that they're doing something wrong-- which is my basic point.
We don't view muslims suspiciously because they're muslims, we view them suspiciously because we doubt their loyalties.
Posted by: Carlos at July 13, 2005 02:01 PM (8e/V4)
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"I might sound like them, but I'm right and they're wrong. That's the difference."
Haha, impeccable logic.
sigh.
Posted by: Venom at July 13, 2005 02:03 PM (dbxVM)
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>>>""I might sound like them, but I'm right and they're wrong. That's the difference."
Venom,
it is impeccable logic. I'll deconstruct it for you if you like-- something that SOUNDS like another is not necessarily the other.
Posted by: Carlos at July 13, 2005 02:06 PM (8e/V4)
9
Tragic and completely reprehensible. The idea that when A commits an act of evil against B, the best course of action is to take it out on C is part of the reason we are in this mess to begin with.
Posted by: Defense Guy at July 13, 2005 02:13 PM (jPCiN)
10
True, but something that SOUNDS like the other usually is the other. Taking that kind of attitude is the same kind of apologist bullshit we heard from some members of the Muslim community after 9/11 where we heard "Yeah, it's sad, but don't look at us to blame. It's America's fault that their cities were attacked."
It's really not that hard to understand: Terrorist scum were responsible for 9/11. Vigilante scum was responsible for this.
Posted by: Venom at July 13, 2005 02:14 PM (dbxVM)
11
At least they didn't saw his head off and put it on the f-ing internet.
Posted by: Filthy Allah at July 13, 2005 02:19 PM (yBHNA)
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>>>"True, but something that SOUNDS like the other usually is the other."
That may be true, and I may even be wrong at times, but illogical? NEVER.
I will join the rest of the blog in condemning this senseless act. But it is clearly in the best interests of the muslim community to make their loyalties as clear as day in the next few weeks and months.
Posted by: Carlos at July 13, 2005 02:20 PM (8e/V4)
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Venom
If the man who was attacked had been spouting off about how the terrorist were justified, then your point is right on. However, by all accounts the man was in the wrong place at the wrong time and paid for that 'sin' with his life. There is no excuse for it, and those that did it should have to pay for it with their own lives as well.
Posted by: Defense Guy at July 13, 2005 02:31 PM (jPCiN)
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Let the Brits sent these people away by law, but peacefully and humanely. "Right" doesn't need to resort to human vandalism.
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at July 13, 2005 02:36 PM (x+5JB)
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DG,
Uh, isn't that the point I made? I think I stated that there was no justification for what was done.
Posted by: Venom at July 13, 2005 02:44 PM (dbxVM)
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Earlier this morning I saw this posted as an AP story. It might have pulled, as I could no longer find it to reference. It is hard to say whether this was done due to misinformation or ???
Posted by: RomeoDelta at July 13, 2005 02:45 PM (AHaCg)
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Perhaps, if you can, you should provide a video link to it, so we can see the enemy. Sheesh.
Posted by: Professor Peter Von Nostrand at July 13, 2005 02:49 PM (h9w01)
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Wouldn't it be interesting to find out that this man in some way actually had ties to the bombers? Yes, yes... I know that Pakistan is a big country and all, but 3 of the identified bombers were from Pakistan, and this guy just happens to be visiting family during the time of the massacre?
I highly doubt there's a connection, but an interesting thought nonetheless.
Posted by: RomeoDelta at July 13, 2005 02:52 PM (AHaCg)
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As ye sow, also shall ye reap. The harvest is ready for gathering now, and muslims are finding they have planted fields of thorns. May they choke on them.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at July 13, 2005 03:02 PM (0yYS2)
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Jesus Christ,
Just because the guy was a Pakistani doesn't mean he had any ties to even Islam, let alone the bombers.
I went to two CofE schools in England, and it was full of Pakistani kids, so it doesn't even mean he was Muslim because he was from Pakistani. talk about ignorant.
Posted by: dave at July 13, 2005 03:10 PM (fsJ2z)
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Dave,
Ignorance involves not realizing the probability that my idea is incorrect. I, on the other hand, CLEARLY stated that I found the possibility of a connection to be unlikely.
In my mind, it is you who are the ignorant one... as you either did not fully read, nor grasp the full concept within my comment. And, I'd prefer if you didn't address me as Jesus Christ in the future. I'm not fit to tie his sandals.
~RD
Posted by: RomeoDelta at July 13, 2005 03:15 PM (AHaCg)
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actually in your mind, it sounds like all people with brown skin might be evil Muslims -- won't you be surprised.
Posted by: dave at July 13, 2005 03:17 PM (fsJ2z)
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Yeah, Dave. Chill.
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at July 13, 2005 03:18 PM (x+5JB)
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Dave,
Now who is stereotyping whom? I think you'll find that you are barking up the wrong tree when it comes to accusing me of racism or religious bigotry. Want to try a different game? You'll likely come up empty there too, so I'd recommend you take YBP's advice and chill.
~RD
Posted by: RomeoDelta at July 13, 2005 03:23 PM (AHaCg)
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stereotyping?
sorry, did the guy that wrote:
"this guy just happens to be visiting family during the time of the massacre?"
"Wouldn't it be interesting to find out that this man in some way actually had ties to the bombers?"
because the person beaten was from Pakistan just accuse me of sterotyping?
You' would have wrote the same thing right if he was White and from Berlin right?
Posted by: dave at July 13, 2005 03:26 PM (fsJ2z)
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/nottinghamshire/4680891.stm
Posted by: dave at July 13, 2005 03:40 PM (fsJ2z)
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All right, kids. Don't make me come over there.
Posted by: Oyster at July 13, 2005 03:44 PM (fl6E1)
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Dave,
I'm a card-carrying, flag waving, bleeding heart registered democrat liberal, and a friend of Romeo's. While we don't see eye to eye on all political issues, we both agree that the right to freely express opinions is a value we hold dear.
You might be interested to know that Romeo is not racist, nor is he lacking in intellect or communication skills. He is a well educated, eloquent and balanced individual--who also happened to work and live in the Middle East! So your accusations of racism are very off the mark.
I take his "what if" commentary as nothing more than that, a "what if", much like my current musing, "What if it was sunny and hot this weekend and I could spend extra time weeding my garden?"
Have a great day!
Cheers, happygardeningmama
Posted by: happygardeningmama at July 13, 2005 03:46 PM (AHaCg)
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This string delineates the Jawa Community along two clear lines. Those who have sympathy for the man who was murdered and those who find joy in his death. The latter lineage, are no better than the description they attribute to Islam, i.e., it is a fundementally flawed religion. Your attitude leaves no room for reconciliation, which is the only possible way to end this madness, short of the total annihillation of humanity.
I'm certain, that like the former lineage, there is a strong core with whom we can find common ground in the Islamic community.
This will be our salvation. The first step is to be more even handed in dealing with the Israeli/Palestinian situation. From this step will shine the beacon of peace.
Posted by: greg at July 13, 2005 03:48 PM (OiV6y)
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I'm sorry my comments must have been REALLY off the mark if he needed someone to come over here and tell me he's not a racist.
Feel free to apologize, I have nothing better to go by that his own words, you evidently know him better so let's just say he's not a racist if it makes everyone concerned "happy".
Posted by: dave at July 13, 2005 03:54 PM (fsJ2z)
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Bullshit greg, you hate Jews and are always willing to believe it was them instead of muslims who murdered people. The only common ground that muslims have in mind for us is the grave, dhimmis like you included.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at July 13, 2005 04:08 PM (0yYS2)
32
Be nice to greg you know what an effort it was for him to be so reasonable. Greg is right there is a perception that the US always goes with Israel and let's Palestine suffer. While me may scold Israel in private when they thumb their nose at us a public scolding or two might help dispell that perception. Example: some times the US works it's butt off trying to make a deal. There is a certain element in Israel that does not want peace just more expansion. Just Just about the time we get close to making progress boom they bulldoze a house or carry out an assisination at just the wrong moment. I don't often support Palestine since I watched them Cheering the WTC. But not to look a Israel with a critcal eye is not right either. Greg goes overboard with it in my opinion but that's greg's mission. We need to make the US wag Israel's dog not he other way around. While the war in Iraq seems to have taken a lot of the attention from this issue it stands to reason that until Palestine and Israel come to an agreement there will be problems. Maybe since the spotlight is off that issue right now they can quietly make some progress there. For sure there is plenty of guilt on both sides. I just don't think we should always support Israel no matter what. I think that bombing there the other day was the terrorist trying to get attention back. Maybe the war on terror is just the thing to get peace there. Unlikely but I think there is more hope now than in a long time. I put it at about 80/20 palestine/Israel but for sure Israel should rightfully get some of the blame. The concept of Israel looking our for Israel and not the US is not all that far fetched. We look out for them a lot more than they look out for us.
Posted by: Howie at July 13, 2005 04:38 PM (D3+20)
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Well Said Howie
Posted by: Sparky at July 13, 2005 04:45 PM (F1nba)
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Oh and I havent heard anything about this story over here. If its true then it is terrible but that could happen here to me walking down the street with my children. It could have nothing to do with reprisals and more to do wth the yob culture that is overrunning this country.
Posted by: Sparky at July 13, 2005 04:49 PM (F1nba)
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I fully agree with Rusty. The vigilante violence referred to only hurts the cause of reason. There's plenty of room for vigilance, but we really don't need any vigilantism right now.
I also agree with the commenters who denounce any blaming of the victim. We can all discuss positive steps the Muslim world could take at another time. I don't know who this Pakistani man was, but he probably didn't deserve to get beaten to death, and he certainly didn't deserve to get beaten to death simply because he was Pakistani.
This man's killing was wrong. Period.
The people responsible should be severely punished. Period.
Posted by: Eman at July 13, 2005 04:51 PM (c/4ax)
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Sparky:
personally, I wouldn't walk around in the Meadows in Nottingham either, but it wasn't a surprise to me to see reprisals of this nature occuring.
Posted by: dave at July 13, 2005 04:57 PM (fsJ2z)
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A few more beatings and Muslims may be properly deterred from visiting!
He who does not take up arms against Jihadism is by default a Jihadist.
I am looking forward to more instances of Muslim homicide bombers waking up bovine Europeans who shrink from the Kulturkampf we must fight.
Posted by: Hugh Jorgan at July 13, 2005 04:59 PM (u9usz)
38
I hate this freaking keyboard.
Posted by: Howie at July 13, 2005 05:03 PM (D3+20)
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Dave
Im not surprised either I may not agree that this is the best way forward but I would like to see the Muslim community coming forward and letting the authorities know of anyone who is spouting their hate in the mosques they are the only ones who can help us tackle the problems but will they? The sad state of affairs is that until people in this country see some movement in this direction this is the sort of stupidity we can expect.
Greg
Will we be seeing you eat a little humble pie in respect of your post that they were british,they were but they were british MUSLIMS 
Posted by: Sparky at July 13, 2005 05:25 PM (F1nba)
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"The sad state of affairs is that because people in this country will see only trivial movement in this direction, this is the sort of inevitable, visceral response we can expect."
Fixed it for you.
Posted by: Hugh Jorgan at July 13, 2005 05:45 PM (u9usz)
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GREG
OOPS watch those crumbs your getting them all over the carpet!
Hugh
thank you I think
Posted by: Sparky at July 13, 2005 06:09 PM (F1nba)
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Until muslims come out in force to expose and eject from among them extremists, terrorists, and their supporters, they must all be considered enemies. When they start turning in the jihadis then they can expect safety, until then, they are all enemies.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at July 13, 2005 06:44 PM (0yYS2)
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IM:
http://www.blackfive.net/main/
They have pictures of Iraqi's that marched against terrorism on July 5th, next question -- Why haven't we heard about it from the press?
Posted by: dave at July 13, 2005 09:40 PM (fsJ2z)
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A good place for Pakistanis is Pakistan. End of problems now and in the future. Let us face the truth. England screwed up by allowing too many ragheads into their country. Now they have a problem. This problem will grow and grow until the Brits realize that massive deportations is the only answer.
I will point out for the muslim excuse makers that the score this week in England is 52 dead and 300 wounded by the muslims and 1 dead (if true, which I doubt) by the English (Christians). And yet some seem to still make excuses for the muslims and critize Christians who have had enough.
Posted by: greyrooster at July 13, 2005 10:22 PM (CBNGy)
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Hi Sparky: Long time. I trust you and family are fine. I have a new grandson.
Posted by: Greyrooster at July 13, 2005 10:24 PM (CBNGy)
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Muslims marching is one thing; it could easily be a massive damage control campaign, but I will believe there's a change when they start giving up names of terrorists is supporters. I would like to see islam change, but I'm not holding my breath, but rather spending more time at the range and the gym. Like the old Arab proverb goes: Trust Allah, but tie up your camel.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at July 13, 2005 11:54 PM (0yYS2)
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Greyrooster
CONGRATULATIONS I hope all are well. Does he look like his Grandad?
You have been MIA for a while is this why?
Posted by: Sparky at July 14, 2005 06:00 AM (F1nba)
48
Sparky: "Greg, Will we be seeing you eat a little humble pie in respect of your post that they were british,they were but they were british MUSLIMS
"
Sparky, next to apple pie ala mode, humble pie is my favorite.
Remember, these 4 are Suspects. I hear there is a video of the 4 meeting prior to disbursing and reportedly doing the bombing. I haven't watched much TV lately, so I may be wrong about this, but I haven't seen the video or even a still photo of the tetrad. Have you? I want 1st hand evidence, not a second hand account from Big Brother. Even if such a video exists, is it proof any wrong doing? Are any of the other points of evidence proof, or just circumstantial evidence? Was any of the evidence manufactured (see the next paragraph regarding the manufactured 9-11 story).
Cui bono? Blair, who was receiving great resistance in the pursuit of the passage of the new British anti-terrorism bill, will now have the bill sail through.
If the bombs were designed to be detonated remotely, why not do so?
It makes no sense to me. I can't imagine someone with an 8 month old baby killing himself when he could explode his bomb remotely. Apparently the man's own family had no idea that he was a 'terrorist', as they called the police to report him missing. You and others believe that these men are guilty, not because it's a slam dunk, but merely because you have been told that is the case.
I remember after 9-11, we were shown a picture that was reported to be Mohammed Atta entering the Portland, Oregon airport. I never saw pictures of the other 18 entering the airports of their final departure site. According to a BBC report , 4 of the hijackers are still alive, read it for yourself: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
and yet Big Brother never corrected himself. To this day, the FBI still lists the 4 live men as being among the 'terrorists'. Why? Do they think we are that stupid? Are we that stupid? I for one am not, despite, what others on this site might say about me.
I remain unconvinced.
"
Sparky, next to apple pie ala mode, humble pie is my favorite.
Remember, these 4 are Suspects. I hear there is a video of the 4 meeting prior to disbursing and reportedly doing the bombing. I haven't watched much TV lately, so I may be wrong about this, but I haven't seen the video or even a still photo of the tetrad. Have you? I want 1st hand evidence, not a second hand account from Big Brother. Even if such a video exists, is it proof any wrong doing? Are any of the other points of evidence proof, or just circumstantial evidence? Was any of the evidence manufactured (see the next paragraph regarding the manufactured 9-11 story).
Cui bono? Blair, who was receiving great resistance in the pursuit of the passage of the new British anti-terrorism bill, will now have the bill sail through.
If the bombs were designed to be detonated remotely, why not do so?
It makes no sense to me. I can't imagine someone with an 8 month old baby killing himself when he could explode his bomb remotely. Apparently the man's own family had no idea that he was a 'terrorist', as they called the police to report him missing. You and others believe that these men are guilty, not because it's a slam dunk, but merely because you have been told that is the case.
I remember after 9-11, we were shown a picture that was reported to be Mohammed Atta entering the Portland, Oregon airport. I never saw pictures of the other 18 entering the airports of their final departure site. According to a BBC report , 4 of the hijackers are still alive, read it for yourself: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
and yet Big Brother never corrected himself. To this day, the FBI still lists the 4 live men as being among the 'terrorists'. Why? Do they think we are that stupid? Are we that stupid? I for one am not, despite, what others on this site might say about me.
I remain unconvinced.Posted by: greg at July 14, 2005 06:39 AM (rkHVU)
49
"A British disaster recovery consultant working at the scene of the London 7/7 bombings tells British TV and radio how they occurred precisely at the times and places scheduled in a terrorism drill he was running.
July 13, 2005—The slip was showing On Her Majesty's Secret Service, broadcast on prime time TV for all Britain to see on the evening of 7/7—but almost no one noticed.
It happened on a special called Target London. Rescue workers on one half of the screen, and on the other, Peter Power, a British consultant, innocently giving the game away.
Can you see what's wrong with this picture?
Power: Today we were running an exercise for a company . . . 1,000 people involved in the whole organization—with the crisis team. And the most peculiar thing was, it was we based on a scenario of simultaneous attacks on a underground and mainline station. So we had to suddenly switch an exercise from fictional to real. . . .
Interviewer: Just to get this right, you were actually working today on an exercise that envisioned virtually this scenario?
Power: Almost precisely. [2]
Within the hour Mr. Power was on the radio, too:
Power: At half past nine this morning we were actually running an exercise for a company of over a thousand people in London based on simultaneous bombs going off precisely at the railway stations where it happened this morning, so I still have the hairs on the back of my neck standing up right now.
Host: To get this quite straight, you were running an exercise to see how you would cope with this and it happened while you were running the exercise?
Power: Precisely. [3]
You might need to be a paranoid 9/11 conspiracy theorist like me to understand what Mr. Power was saying, since as a normal person, he himself was surprised but not suspicious."
Just like on 9-11, the 'suicide bombers' operated under the cover of a drill. Were they part of the drill? Did they think they were carrying fake expolsives? Is this why they died despite carrying explosives that could be detonated remotely? Were they patsies in a psyop like Oswald? Under the cicumstances, these are valid questions.
Posted by: greg at July 14, 2005 07:51 AM (0PbLu)
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Correction:
Atta was supposedly filmed in Portland,MAINE not Oregon, although it makes no difference.
Posted by: greg at July 14, 2005 07:57 AM (0PbLu)
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Venom
You are of course right, and I should have read your post more closely. My apologies.
Posted by: Defense Guy at July 14, 2005 10:46 AM (jPCiN)
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Greg remains unconvinced that muslims did this, but convinced that Jooooooos did it. He also remains a mouth-breathing moron who lives in his mom's basement.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at July 14, 2005 11:35 AM (0yYS2)
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No worries. I kinda figured you weren't referring to me.
Posted by: Venom at July 14, 2005 11:36 AM (dbxVM)
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