1 Dr. Rusty, it's not often that I agree with you, and in fact I can't subscribe to every word you said (for instance, I don't believe that opposing an ongoing war is treason -- if one feels that a war is actually a misuse of American forces, or was illegally begun, I believe it is one's patriotic duty to oppose the policy). But the idea of accusing American troops of willingly becoming "tools of American imperialism" is way, way over the line. Maybe it's because I grew up in a military town, and had family and family friends who have served (including two who attended West Point), but as one of those Democrats you spoke of (and a fairly liberal one) I find what Mr. Stein wrote in his LAT piece offensive and repugnant. As you stated, members of the uniformed military do not start wars. They carry out the policies of their civilian government. They are no more responsible for the rightness or wrongness of the policies they carry out than are the companies that produce the MRE's the troops are served in the field. However, it is no longer true, as you say, that nations fight wars. In the all-volunteer military of today, soldiers and their families pretty much fight alone. The rest of us go on with our lives, with nothing much asked of us -- no sacrifices, no war bonds, no limiting our use of gasoline to counteract the escalating price of oil... This administration has failed, not only in divising and executing its policies competently, but also in making the war an American -- rather than strictly a military -- conflict. All their strategists ask of the rest of us is unquestioning personal loyalty to the president, something that would have been an anathema to the other Roosevelt -- Teddy -- not to mention the Founding Fathers, who carried us away from the King. So I agree with you and I disagree. As an American, I worship no president, and I feel no obligation to support his administration's policies when I find them objectionable; war or no war. But I DO support our men and women in uniform, and feel that the line must clearly be drawn at "spitting on them" -- literally or figuratively. That is true both for liberals like Stein who denigrate their service to some sort of hit squad for Dubya, and for conservatives who have argued with me that troops have no right to complain because they volunteered. I believe that in but for a few cases of people who can't handle the pressure or don't follow the rules, our fighting men and women are the bravest, most honorable, humblest and least appreciated people among us. They often deserve better military and civilian leadership, but you know what? I know I wouldn't be brave enough to do what they do, and to do it whether I agreed with the policy or not (I've talked to some who disagree, but who go forward with absolute honor and integrity anyway). They are duty bound to try and make this war work, and they are doing the best job they can. I commend them for that, and for their sakes (and the sake of our national honor) I want them to kick ass and win in Iraq, asap so they can come home. But Dr. S, I will go to my grave believing that the invasion of Iraq was a needless and costly mistake -- perhaps the greatest foreign policy blunder in a generation. You and I clearly disagree about that, but I feel absolute confidence that my opinion makes me as good an American as anybody. Respectfully, Joy Reid

2 I don't support this guy. I urge anyone to bitch slap his ass open hand kung fu- julie numar style!

3 I love it! Its got a kinda 3rd World feel to it - politicalizing the military (which is what this adds up to). Shows you where there heads are at. Got a cool one for the Left - convince some Govenor and State assembly to recall their National Guard components. Should make for some interesting legal mumbo-jumbo over authority and chain of command.

4 (Sorry for the bad English, I'm French Canadian) I live in Quebec, Canada. I went in Bosnia when Canada was needed there. And like a lot of my colleagues and friends, we were sad to know that we wouln't go to Iraq, letting all the US do the work almost alone. I talked to some guys who were about to leave there when I was at Camp Shelby, Mississipi. I was so upset when they said that a lot of people in their own country didn't support them. It was a non-sense to me. And now, I can read something like this article in what appears to be a major publication. What kind of message is been sent to troops?!? Support by the people who don't fight is at least 50% of the war effort. Rest assured that a lot of people are proud in Quebec of what the US do for the rest of the world. Leadership par l'Exemple, Max

5 This is humongogigantinormous. Joel Stein isn't some obscure diarist at DailyKos. Imagine, a Time magazine columnist actually coming out on the same side as Michael Crook.

6 Filthy, will a digital bitch slap do? Because I just fisked the guy - and in an Olympian move, only cussed once.

7 The guy's supposed to be a humor writer; I wonder if this is an incredibly misguided attempt at being arch? BTW, I predict that the Lefties will be angry about this column too, over Stein's repeating of the "myth" that soldiers returning from Vietnam were spat upon.

8 What do you expect? This moron writes for the same idiots at Time who put Ann Coulter on the cover. If they think she's an intelligent commentator, they probably think he's funny.

9 Ed, Ann's smarter than you by an infinite order of mangnitudes.

10 Max, Once again I applaud your support. You astound me. I only wish that all French Canadians were like you. I solute you as a brave soldier. (SOLUTE) Joy Reid, You are right to voice your own opinion but you are not respected for them. Remember this; "You should not judge unless prepared to be judged". Sometimes battles don't come out as planned. We lost good men and women on that field (mothers/fathers/brothers and sisters) DON'T GIVE UP ON THEM NOW! By saying you don't believe in this war is just the same as saying you don't believe in them. Your killing the AMERICAN Faith! Each and every soldier INCLUDING BUSH need to be soluted! He lead them in to battle believing for you and me and everyone in America, including the world, that what we were doing is for the better. "SO, maybe the psychic hotline was closed". I didn't hear your voice screaming out; "I KNOW WHO DID IT". So you already condemmed him for being wrong, BUT.... Just a thought, what if Bush was right. What if after 9/11, came more bombings all over the U.S.? What if Bush had waited to act, so that our Generals can ponder on where this attack was originated? What if he had just waited a second longer? Would you have argued that he should have acted quicker? What if he had attacked before 9/11? Would you have told him; "there never was going to be an attack"? You knew as much information as I did. We never said you had to like Bush, but when someone comes to knock a fellow American soldier like Bush to the ground, you had BETTER be there to defend him. (if he is wrong, you punch him for it later) but not in the middle of a fight. I KNOW that any fellow AMERICAN would NEVER let another AMERICAN FALL. WE STAND UNITED, SHOULDER TO SHOULDER. I maybe an ignorant brave AMERICAN, but atleast i'm a BRAVE AMERICAN! And I would NEVER turn my back on another AMERICAN no matter how wrong he is. IF HE IS WRONG, he has me to deal with but I will NEVER disgrace him/her. America is #1 because we all STAND AS 1! the AMERICAN Taco Bandit

11 >>"I don't support our troops." shocka! No, really. I'm shocked, shocked!

12 So why do you assume he's a "leftist"? I've read Stein's mildly amusing stuff (he's supposed to be a humor writer) over the years, and I don't recall him taking an political stand. For all you know he's a closet Pat Buchanan groupie. I'm a REAL Leftist, and I say Stein is not one of us. I have family in the army and I support the troops even if I disagree with the mission. If the mission is wrong it's up to us civilians to put pressure on the government to change it. The troops, who have their lives on the line, can't afford to do anything cute to protest the mission. Stein isn't speaking for the Left; he's speaking for Stein. Keep that straight.

13 Stein isn't speaking for the Left; he's speaking for Stein. Except he sounds so much like so many on the left, it's hard to tell the difference.

14 maha He's your baggage - we've got ours - accept it - and deal with it - the Pontius Pilate route doesn't work.

15 Maha, if you're a true leftist, then you can't possibly support our troops, because the core ethos of leftism is to undermine and attack America at every opportunity. You may have swallowed some leftist propaganda about wealth, etc., but if you truly support our military, you're just misguided, not leftist.

16 idiot

17 Maxi, I think we have many more misguided people than we have true Leftists. It takes a mental disconnect to actually believe the rubbish of the Left. I remember a time in my life when a professor tried to corrupt my mind with Leftist doctrine, but I could feel in my bones that what he said and advocated was a crock of crap. Most people are not fooled by the stupidity of the Left, confused maybe, but most people eventually see the light, just as I did.

18 Now Now People, I can relate to what you say about the left for most of the population. But, as for some like these two, they say they support our troops and they like America, then that will do. They have nothing to prove until the time comes to prove it. I have a friend from Canada and even he is willing to kick ass for america. I once banged a chick from Canada and she was a nice peace of ass for America. Leave that last part out. The TACO BANDIT

19 Taco Bandit said, "America is #1 because we all STAND AS 1!" But you don't stand as 1. To an external observer surfing the blogs it looks like you (Americans) genuinely hate each other. The name-calling and general visciousness of the debate is almost stomach churning. You don't discuss issues any more because everyone's mind seems to be made up. "Liberal" and "conservative" are no longer descriptive of a intellectual positions, they're just longer words for "good" and "bad". Like "Catholic" and "Protestant" or "Palestinian" and "Isreali" - and the consequences are likely to be just as stupid, tragic and generational. It's a terrible shame because the world faces many urgent problems and it would be great if the world's wealthiest nation could provide some enlightened and coherent leadership. But that's not going to happen while you guys are tearing each other's throats out. I don't have any magic solutions to the mess you're in but you could start by being civil to your fellow citizens.

20 Guess they don't have satire on Tatooin (or whatever the fuck planet you live on.)

21 Kinda hard to tell at times, but it doesn't matter if it's satire or not. The point I was trying to make remains exactly the same.

22 Barry, Please don't steal my quotes. I say them because I feel them. And yes, America does stand together. I will take up arms agains the enemy if i have to. Just because what you see here isn't to your liking, doesn't give you the right try and change it. Move your happy ass on to the next blog if you want. Yahoo has a good one on Canadians striking Oil in the Middle East again! GEEZ! Blow it out your ASS! How's that for name-calling visciousness!

23 Taco Bandit, Thank you for your thoughtful response. It fills me with hope for the future of your great nation.

24 Nevermind what I said...your right. You see so many people come here and so so many bad things about America, it gets annoying! But, anyways. My bad. Lets be Civil. (Handshake)

25 Well...I hope that's not satirical...but hey, nice to meet you.

26 Barry, nope, no mocking intended. I agree, Americans are civil (most) and it shouldn't change here. Nice to meet you too. O.k. I don't want to turn this thing in to a instant messenger. I'm out. later.

27 This whole Jill Carroll thing is really frustrating me. We went to War to fight terrorism (people who say "if you don't meet our demands we'll commit horrible acts and it's your fault for not heeding our warnings"). Anyway, I'm witnessing for the first time otherwise pro-war Americans question a policy to not negotiate. I've never wanted to be so cold hearted not to listen to a fathers plea, but, so far I've taken the position that we shouldn't, as she was anti-war, out of the green zone and pretty pretty much brought this on herself like we'ld all go running out into 100-mi hr. hurricane to save a reporter standing on a beach selling papers. This one however is pulling at the hear strings which gives light to the fact that Terrorism Pays so they should just keep on doing it, even if we didn't give in...the effect has been achieved with myself and swayed way more Patriots than any little lefty girl out hugging Iraqis could have done with a pen. This is really a difficult position to be in...I feel like to question it would mean my ultimate demise and a true burning in Hell, but, by my nature I must question the facts here. My best friend a former Marine with a daughter like myself is almost coming to blows with me...it's terrible -A no name anti-war "journalist" works for a barely read paper (news organizations would never be dishonest to sell papers)gets kidnapped...everyone knows who Jill is now, her word and ideas are a spreading. -She gets kidnapped by a terrorist org noone has ever heard of in front of a supposed meeting with a arabic leader who wasn't aware of the meeting in grand fashion. -She's been living amongst the Iraqi people outside the Green Zone telling their story for years (thanks for that because us dumb rednecks thought bombs were so smart they only hit bad guys and drop gold coins for good...I had no idea a War zone would suck)...anyway wouldn't it be safer to take her from her home rather than in front of an embasy type setting? -The women were set to be let go anyway! Information a journalist may be privy to. But, now it adds merit to being a terrorist and gives the appearance of negotiation. -I go out to the internet and try to find her recent articles (all I see is old, but, they may be listed way back as so many articles have her name now)...I can however join CSMonitor (bizarre that they are the only news site I've been to that has join and pay as the first article...bet their distribution is up)and see if it's in their archives, but I would never give money to increase their liberal distribution who are obviously desperate to get their point of view out). -I just get the feeling dead or alive Jill isn't getting what she deserves (the lefty premise in calling me a sadist for not thinking we should negotiate), I get the feeling Jill is getting what she wants...whether it be of her own attrition or not. -the people she's been living with strap bombs to their chests and achieve less than she has... It just sux to have these feelings and be in this position morally...Why are some of these people there? It's not like she wrote for ABC or CNN! Why is she putting herself and we the American people in this position and chancing setting US Policy back 100 yrs?

28 Barry Pity you missed our group Christmas video - great duet of Maxie & actus singing "What The World Needs Now ..." Sure! Some call each other names - but its done with affection!

29 Did you see the MULLET on that boy?!?

30 Barry, the reason that we seem to hate one another is because we genuinely do. We are not a homogenous people by any means, and all normal boundaries of ingroup/outgroup have been chucked out the window long ago. We are a nation of many different groups with blurry distinctions which collide as often as they overlap, and often within the same group. You can't describe Americans with any sort of a pat label, and must take each of us as individuals. The split comes when you get to the two major groups; those who love America and those who don't. There are things about this country that sicken me, but it's still my country, and I love it, and I have have put my life on the line to serve it, and still would again without hesitation, because that's just the way I am. Likewise, there are those who hate America despite the ease which it affords them to live, yet they refuse to contribute or serve in even the least way, though they also won't leave. We are approaching an unbridgable chasm in our society, and I'm not sure how things will get sorted out, but I am sure of one thing; the fate of the world follows the fate of America. If we fall, everyone loses.

31 That is a beauty, isn't it?

32 "So why do you assume he's a leftist?" Because he sounds like one. I'm pleased that you disagree with him on the rightness of this war, but it seems as if you are a minority on the left. "Stein isn't speaking for the Left; he's speaking for Stein. Keep that straight." Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. He speaks just like an awful lot of leftists. I've been talking to leftists like him for decades. He is NOT some sort of anomaly. Please read Putting Cruelty First: An Interview with Kanan Makiya in Democratiya. He talks about how the left (and non-Iraqi Arabs) attacked him unmercifully for speaking the truth in his book "Cruelty and Silence." This is not a new phenomenon. For generations the left has attacked those who spoke the truth about leftist tyranny. Each generation attacks and attempts to silence the witnesses to murder and cruelty. Then, when the mountains of evidence become too high to ignore, the next generation says "that's old news, mistakes were made, errors of enthusiastic young idealists, time to move on" and then proceeds to do exactly the same thing to the witnesses of their day.

33 "This is America's war, and to be against it is to be against America." I would argue that Stein's language reveals that he is against the war because he is against America.

34 I think pst314 just nailed it. America represents everything that Marxism opposes, and leftism is Marxism, plain and simple. One cannot be a leftist and a loyal American any more than one may sit while standing.

35 Improbulus Maximus - "We are approaching an unbridgable chasm in our society..." Yep, that's how it looks. Again speaking as an external observer I'm amazed at how determined you all seem to be to keep throwing petrol on the fire. The insistence on framing the debate in us versus them terms can never, ever have a constructive outcome (well, not unless you view an actual war against the "leftists" as constructive). BTW, I'm no airy fairy "love conquers all" type. I love my wife, family and close friends, I mostly tolerate the rest of mankind. That's the best I can do. But one thing OBL and co. would dearly love to see would be the US tearing itself apart internally. Surely that should be sufficient incentive for you lot to put a little more effort into seeing each other's point of view.

36 thejoelstein@yahoo.com drop him a note, i'm sure he'd be tickled pink.

37 Responses to responses to earlier comment: "Except he sounds so much like so many on the left, it's hard to tell the difference." Not really. He sounds like what YOU IMAGINE the Left sounds like, but you never really listen to the Left. You listen to what Rush Limbaugh tells you about the Left. Yes, the Left has its whackjob extremist fringe, but so does the Right -- white supremacists, for example. I'm sure you'd feel ill used if I called you all Klansmen. "He's your baggage - we've got ours - accept it - and deal with it - the Pontius Pilate route doesn't work." Once again, there's no way to know whose baggage he is. He is a humorist. He doesn't usually express political opinions in his columns. For all we know he's a lifelong Republican. Remember, lots of Republicans (the Pat Buchanan faction comes to mind) opposed the Iraq War. "Maha, if you're a true leftist, then you can't possibly support our troops, because the core ethos of leftism is to undermine and attack America at every opportunity. You may have swallowed some leftist propaganda about wealth, etc., but if you truly support our military, you're just misguided, not leftist." Again, you have no idea what the Left believes. You've just swallowed propaganda yourself. There IS a whackjob extremist fringe that would like to bring down the government (e.g., International ANSWER, which most of us disown), but there's a whackjob extremist fringe on the Right that wants to bring down the government also (Tim McVeigh types). You judge the mainstream Left by the fringe. If I assumes you were all just like Tim McVeigh you'd probably be insulted, wouldn't you? ""So why do you assume he's a leftist?" Because he sounds like one. I'm pleased that you disagree with him on the rightness of this war, but it seems as if you are a minority on the left." Here is the majority opinion of the Left, to which I subscribe: Invading Iraq was one of the most colossaly stupid things this country has ever done. I supported fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan; indeed, I think we should have gone into Afghanistan quicker and harder. We blew opportunities in Afghanistan, let bin Laden get away, etc. But invading Iraq should have been a much lower priority than the Bush White House made it. Saddam Hussein was a long way away from being a threat to the U.S., and the money, lives, and resources wasted in Iraq could have been put to better use elsewhere. As I said in the earlier post, the Iraq war is wrong, wrong, wrong. But the burden of finding solutions to the mess there falls on us civilians, not the soldiers. I believe most of the soldiers are working very hard to help establish a secure Iraq and come home safely. That's enough on their plates. THAT, sir, IS the majority opinion of the Left. There are some who opposed invading Afghanistan, but they are a small minority. ""Stein isn't speaking for the Left; he's speaking for Stein. Keep that straight." Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. He speaks just like an awful lot of leftists. I've been talking to leftists like him for decades. He is NOT some sort of anomaly." Once again, you take one brick and assume you know what the whole building looks like. And in all the "decades" you've been talking to "leftists" I doubt you've encountered a representative cross-section. "He talks about how the left (and non-Iraqi Arabs) attacked him unmercifully for speaking the truth in his book "Cruelty and Silence."" If you ever want to be attacked unmercifully, just try being a leftie in America speaking out against the Bush Administration. I've actually received obscene and threatening phone calls from you righties because of opinions I have expressed. So don't give me any whiny crap about how nasty lefties are until you clean up your own act.

38 Guess Who showed up in Orlando, Florida! @ the TD WATERHOUSE Centre today. Zig Ziglar <- What a name!> Steve Forbes Bobby Bowden Suze Orman Tom Hopkins Phil Town Gen. Colin Powell Rudolph Giulliani Appears they are giving MOTIVATED SEMINARS about success (speeches are listed above, right of their name) @ only $225.00 a person (WOW!) and let me tell you, the roads and highways were packed! Since I'm poor and my trailor got repoed, leaving me to this BOX behind my parents house (the dog gets to sleep inside) talking to you guys on my Apple 1 computer and watering down my last beer to make it last longer, I might as well attend. Anyone have some money than can fax me?

39 LOL Taco, In French we say: "Ou il y a de la vie, il y a de l'espoir!" (Where there's life, there's hope!) Max

40 Rough week for Stein. He even made Atrios' Wanker of the Day.

41 >>>You listen to what Rush Limbaugh tells you about the Left. Not really. That's what *you* IMAGINE Rush Limbaugh says to us. But you never really listen to Rush. Us rightwingers are all racist, sexist, warmongering pigs, greedy, hate the poor, religious wingnuts. But you Lefties are all a picture of moderation-- except for that one Leftard out on the margins. Riiiight. >>>Again, you have no idea what the Left believes. You've just swallowed propaganda yourself. Right again. We have "no idea" what the Left believes. roflmao! No matter that many of your greatest foes have been Lefties for most of our lives, and we're onto you. Yup, you Lefties are a great mystery wrapped in an enigma inside a riddle. You're all very shy about your beliefs, apparently. You're totally misunderstood. See, that's your problem. You just haven't gotten your message out! Yeah, that's the ticket!

42 Us rightwingers are all racist, sexist, warmongering pigs, greedy, hate the poor, religious wingnuts. But you Lefties are all a picture of moderation-- except for that one Leftard out on the margins. Riiiight. This describes the looney Right fringe. Does it describe you? I take it you don't think so. I accept that; the mainstream Right is not racist, sexist, etc. So why is it you (and Michelle Malkin, who is the worst offender these days) insist that the looney Left fringe represents the mainstream Left? It does not. And I still have seen no evidence that Joel Stein is anything but an asshole with no particular political agenda.

43 "And in all the 'decades' you've been talking to 'leftists' I doubt you've encountered a representative cross-section." How kind of you to put 'decades' and 'leftists' in quotes. Since you "doubt" what I wrote, let me be more specific: In my youth I was on the left, and most of my friends were liberals and leftists. I have over 30 years of adult interactions with such people, ranging from academics in various fields to union activists and ordinary individuals. Their incomes ranged from upper-upper middle class to on welfare. They ranged from blue collar to white collar. Their ranged all over the political spectrum, from Hubert Humphrey liberals to every sort of leftist you can imagine, including Wobblies, Maoists, Trotskyites, Fidelistas, Spartacist Leaguers, Wobblies, social democrats of various sorts, and so on. I have books in my library by various liberals and leftists, and have read others, including, for example, some Marx and Lenin. One brick? I've seen hundreds. One phenomenon I noticed across much of the left was, as I mentioned before, an inclination to defame and denigrate refugees from Communist tyranny, in an attempt to silence any criticism of leftist thugs. And of course to do everything possible to deny assistance to those fighting such tyranny. Was this universal? No, of course not, but it was very common. Kanan Makiya wrote of how he was betrayed by his "comrades." The same thing happened with the boat people of Vietnam, refugees from Cuba and Nicaragua. And of course, it happened earlier with refugees from the Soviet Union and from China. The left has still largely failed to face up to this shameful legacy of betrayal. Oh sure, you can find a principled leftist here and there who discusses the issue honestly, but too much of the left wants to either explain away and excuse, or just pretend it didn't happen. But don't take criticism of the left too personally: Just because many of the people posting here see the left in in general is deeply pathological, that does not necessarily reflect on you. Our opinions of you will largely depend on the opinions you express here. But if you insist on denying history we'll have difficulty taking you seriously. As for "don't give me any whiny crap" well, even back in the 60's and 70's I was noticing how comfortable ordinary leftists were with harassment and assault on people they disagreed with. Furthermore, who's whining? Do you have trouble handling disagreement? Well, you wouldn't be the first leftist I've met who blew up when faced with dissent from dogma, not by a long shot.

44 Oh--as for Rush Limbaugh, sorry, wrong again. I don't listen to talk radio much. I've heard maybe 20 minutes of him in my entire life. I got my opinions of the left by speaking with leftists and reading what they wrote.

45 pst314: As a 55-year-old myself, what I've observed over the years is that when you argue with a Leftie you may be cursed and insulted, but when you argue with a Rightie you are asking for physical assault. The blogger David Neiwert at Orcinus documents hate speech coming from the Right, if you want to check it out. Here's just one example. Righties are far more likely than lefties to threaten to eliminate people who disagree with them. I spend a lot of time on the blogosphere, and one finds rightie bloggers and their commenters who fantasize about doing physical harm to, even killing, the opposition. This is more rare on the Left. Lefties hurl insults, yes; but they don't threaten to kill people at nearly the same rate righties do. So don't give me any crap about how you poor righties are so reasonable and lefties are so nasty. Also, regarding "in my youth I was on the left" -- I run into this a lot. Inevitably, with a little digging, I find out that the individual was either a committed Marxist who did a complete flip (David Horowitz comes to mind) or was some fairly apolitical kid who considered himself to be a "leftist" because in the 1960s that's what young people were supposed to be. If in your youth you were seriously knowledgable of and committed to liberal/progressive ideals and values and then changed your mind, you would be most unusual.

46 Maha, As your Canadian population grows and winter hits, you guys seem to magically appear in and around America. Why? Righties must not be that bad. I would say more lefts go right than rights go left. Is that Right or not right? You put your right foot in, You put your right foot out, you put your right foot in and you shake it all about. You do the Hokey Pokey and you turn yourself about......That's what it's all about....

47 >>>If in your youth you were seriously knowledgable of and committed to liberal/progressive ideals and values and then changed your mind, you would be most unusual. That's why people tend to be more Liberal when they're young and stupid-- because they don't know what the fuck they're talking about. And then as they grow older and wiser, they turn more conservative. Especially when they start raising a family. To quote Churchill, if you're not a Liberal at 20, you have no heart. If you're still a Liberal at 30, you have no brain. I thought myself very clever back in my young Lib days. Very, very clever indeed. Now I can only look back at myself and shake my head in amusement. What was I thinking. But I was a full-on Lefty, and committed enough to put my money where my mouth was. I travelled several times to Nicaragua to support the Sandinistas, I was at all the protests, and stopped traffic on numerous occassion during our "die-ins" to protest the warmongering Reagan. I could argue your ears off on Lefty dogma. Today Reagan is my hero! hahaha! Now you Lefties don't have a bigger enemy in the world than me. And unlike most rightwingers, I've been on the inside. I know you better than you know yourselves.

48 ...well, you may have "bigger" enemies than me, but certainly not more committed ;-)

49 This is ridiculous. The article had self deprecation and sarcasm all through it. And everyone missed the point. All he says in this article is he doesnÂ’t feel you can separate supporting the troops and support for the war. He says he doesnÂ’t hate them as people; donÂ’t spit on them and so on. He just means he canÂ’t and doesnÂ’t see it as correct to say you support the troops and donÂ’t support the war. He even goes on to say that it would be ok to fight for real issues like genocide. And the whole article is more about a liberal saying they are for the troops but against the war. Whether I agree with this article or not doesnÂ’t matter. I think everyoneÂ’s outrage is ridiculousÂ…encouraging troops to disobey orders, please. I think this whole country needs a giant enema. Oh and I find it funny that this site has a quote by Thomas Mann in its title. Many people wouldnÂ’t understand, be appalled or highly disagree with his works with gay and sexual undertones, support for socialism, communism and other issues many would disagree with. People should think before they just pull quotes they think fit their views.

50 maha, if you think that the left is so much less prone to hate speech or threats or even violence, well, the kindest way I can put it is that you are deluding yourself. And the left has a record of excusing and condoning it. Hey--look at the unrepentant terrorists and terrorist aiders who were eagerly given tenure by major universities, and lauded by liberal journalists. But even a hint of violent past for someone on the right is a career-killer. As for your assertion that I "would be most unusual" well, again you are wrong. Oh, and by the way, the pervasive intolerance of dissent is one of the things that drove me away from the left. I have found it much easier to debate issues with conservatives. (Although one should remember that "conservative" today usually would be better called "classical liberal".)

51 Barry, all of nature is "us versus them", and war is indeed the only meaningful way to solve major societal problems with any finality, only most people are too gutless to admit it. If it weren't for the righteous employment of warfare, the Nazi's and Communists would still be fighting over the scraps of the world, but we big bad Americans put a stop to them, with no thanks from those we saved, by the way. If problems can be solved by means other than war, then they mostly are, and people do it all the time, but sometimes we run into problems that just can't be resolved peacefully, such as muslims wanting to enslave or murder everyone, for example. This is dealbreaker among civilized humans, and unless one is a spineless liberal, one is inclined to resist such efforts by the savages who commit such acts. The only solution to the muslim problem is to kill them until they get tired of it and slither back to hide under the rocks whence they emerged, or be exterminated like the vermin they are. They cannot be reasoned with. They don't want to negotiate. They just want to conquer, murder, rape, and pillage, because they're unevolved primitive savages, and that's what they do. Anyone who would make apologies for them should be shot along with them for betraying humanity and civilization.

52 I wouldn't go so far as to describe all of life as "us versus them" but I would maintain that there is nothing wrong with condemning seditionists. Some things are beyond the pale. (Of course much of "progressive" talk has been aimed at making nothing, no matter how vile, beyond the pale--except for disagreement with those tolerant, peaceful progressives.)

53 Mr. Stein is right. Soldiers are not bound to obey immoral or illegal orders. I think the Nuremberg trials made it clear that "I was just following orders" defense, does not absolve guilt. Just remember, Germans supported their troops too! "It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority."- Benjamin Franklin

54 Ah, now I understand. America is like Nazi Germany because we brought down a fascist regime that was and continued to be a menace to the region and to the world. Thanks for explaining that.