1 "Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer." Explain to me how it is a bad thing to have anyone interested in supporting or joining Hamas send their ip addresses and with it, their real world physical locations to a website hosted in America?

2 Except that they use internet cafes and libraries to upload their propaganda. Hence, the IP addresses are not as nearly as important as you might initially think. Again, that is pre-911 thinking. This is not a criminal investigation, it is a war. In war, you take out the assets of the enemy.

3 " Instead, the FBI treats terrorism on the internet as a criminal matter." A subpeona would get the info from the registrars, would bust the "whois protection" service.

4 I think- or hope at least- that you are misunderestimating our spooks. Deception is vital to defeating a guerilla opponent. There are some strategies that only work if the opponent is unaware of the strategy. I really want to say more because I like being right, but winning this war is more important than me being right, so patriotism requires discretion on this issue.

5 I wish I was. I don't think I am. I will be publishing some pretty shocking stuff about this pretty soon.

6 Let's see now ... terrorist linked sites posting with abandon while the FEC is ruminating over rules to shut down any American that blogs about any issue that may have political connotations ... yeah, that's the ticket ...

7 Report it anyway, Rusty; that's our job. I would love a job with the FBI or CIA or even for Missing Children. They are using people at home, like myself, on the computer, to find these bastards. Maybe they just don't know it, Rusty, so again, I say report it and see what happens. We have got to stop them from communicating. Cindy

1 EFFIN GREAT!

2 I totally agree with you. It outrages me that this is really going on! I wrote a similar article on my site that says we are becoming more and more like Nazi Germany every day. I've been a long-time oponent of the left and think they've really stepped over the line this time!

3 A ss-phinkter says what? huh A ss-phinkter says what? hmmm A ss-phinkter says what? what EXACTLY!

4 What a total @$$hat.

5 your mom is a moo cow

6 so bored in school

7 Kos even goes extra moonbat with the "100K dead Iraqi's" meme, which, seemingly, not one Lefty actually understands.

8 In all unreality, Bush would probably get a promotion.

1 You didn't post my letter demanding the blood of crusader forces in The Jihad to Rid the World of the International Jew and the Crest Cavity Patrol. Flouride is a mind control device!

2 "thanx god they killed jack hesely i will like it more when they kill bush the bastard he is a pure son of a bitch." I've always liked Barbara Bush. Hmmm. I guess she's a bitch. "72 virgins for muslims ...72 pigs for anti-god forces" I must admit that I've seen some of these Muslim women who are promised to martyrs and I would much rather have the pigs. You can't beat a good bacon burger.

3 72 pigs! Damn the cracklins you could make out of 72 swine!! Or they fat? Juicy with a hint of muscle tone or just sloppy fat from ..well too much slop? Cause see you need that little bit of muscle tone for good craclins or bacon.

4 What is this magic beast you speak of which produces so much delicious food stuffs?

5 72 virgins for muslims ...72 pigs for anti-god forces. I'm going to need a walk-in freezer for this. I don't really like head cheese though, anybody want mine?

6 I could spell better than any of these retards in second grade.Now this post hit home the reason this scum kills in the name of Allah.Their mental capacity is that of a grape(and thats being nice). U.S. Troops don't kill,Intellect(or lack thereof)does.

7 Words of wisdom from a 16 year old from a country that worships cows, rats and monkeys. Would that be the definition of irony?

8 whatare the effortof the islaamic organization did on this issue we musslim we are week just only non muslim was controlly us pls ineed the more information this issue thanks. ma'asallam

9 72 virgins? This is an erroneous reading of the illustrious prophet. It is one 72-year-old virgin. ISLAMIC SCHOLAR.

1 This was never practiced during the days of our Prophet (SAW). He explicity asked us to pray as we have seen him pray. Was he ever lead by a female in prayer? Hadith is there to help us follow the Prophet (SAW)'s lifestlye and to help guide us in life. He was the most upstanding Muslim, and the safest way to stay on the correct path is to do as the Prophet (SAW) did. InshAllah Amina Wadud will repent for her mistake, and will no longer commit such acts of blasphemy. Those who argue that times have chanced...all I can say is that Islam is everlasting and not bound by time. The word of Allah and the teachings of his Prophet (SAW) are for all the ages, through all of time. Anyone who believes the opposite surely has little respect for our creator and his gift to us that is Islam.

2 Has it ever crossed your mind that Muhammad was a human being, and as a human being, he wasn't perfect, that he had biases and carried cultural baggage in the form of traditions? Perhaps those traditions were so chauvinistic that he couldn't help but shush his wives.

3 jacquelina i suggest u develop ur understanding if islam before u make pathetic remarks about the prophet (peace be upon him). it is clear u are not a follower so do us a favour and keep ur blasphemous remarks out if this discussion.The phophet (peace be upon him) was the best example for mankind and perfect in every way. period.Therefore this discussion is based on what is permissable and not according to the Sunnah (the prophet's time). certaintly it is not an invitation for You (a nobody) to comment on Muhammad pbuh, the best example to mankind. end.

4 it is a clear cut case..."fain tanaza'tum fi syaiin farudduhu ila Allaha wa Rasulihi" (in case where there is disagreement among you in any matter, refer back to Quran and Sunnah". in one of the hadith of Prophet (pbuh), "sollu kama raaitumuuni usolli" (pray as how you see I prayed). another hadith of Prophet (pbuh), "faman ghaghibi annis sunnati, falaisa minni" (whoever against or hate my sunnah, they are not my followers). this is a very basic principle in usul al-fiqh (islamic jurisprudence). think about it.end.wallahu a'lam.

5 Dear Fans of Muhammad, 1) I am NOT a nobody. I exist. That is enough to not be a nobody. 2) I will NOT keep my opinions to myself. Kaffirs have a right to speak their minds about Muhammad once they learn about him. 3) Muhammad was a product of his time. His chauvinism was milder than that of his culture, but it was chauvinism nonetheless. Also, Muhammad didn't drive, watch TV, use electricity, and wave American flags. He never went to Spain (although it was theoretically possible in that day and age). 4) "Blasphemous" remarks have a place in this discussion. They have a right to be heard, just as Islamic remarks are. You don't have to agree with me. But just whining about the remarks being blasphemous is not going to keep them out of the conversation. Offer up sound reasoning about your opinions, on why you feel Muhammad is the best example for humankind, and I might add my two cents. 5) I submit to you that, regardless of what Muhammad (pbuh) said about being the last Prophet, that Amina Wadud (pbuh) is the next Prophet.

6 I made that last statement to be provocative. I know that no Muslims would believe that statement. I probably don't believe it myself. But it's about as reasonable as yours, given that you base your arguments on faith. As for what Wadud herself says: http://almusawwir.org/amina.html

7 i say when wadud is dead SHOOT JAQALINA. ill tell u why, waste of space, U SOUND LIKE A 50 YEAR OLD WRINKLED UP WOMAN, BUT B4 U TAKE DA P*** OUT OF MY WRITING IM TWICE HALF UR AGE. U DONT KNW NUFFIN ABOUT OUR PROPHET,AS FAR AS I CAN SEE UR MIND IS FULL OF RUBBISH. U MAKIN STUPUD STORIES ABOUT OUR PROPHET AND WHAT HIS LIFE WAS ABOUT. U DONT F***** KNW NUFFFIN, I C U HAV NO RELIGON BUT IT DONT MEAN THAT EVER1 WILL B LIKE U. U ARE ONE OF THE MOST STUPID WOMEN ON EARTH THAT MAKES REMARKS ABOUT STUFF THAT DUZENT EVEN EXIST IN THE RELIGON. U SEM TO BE LOW LIFE TRYING TO SUCK UP TO WADUD WELL SHE AINT GONNA GIV YA EXTRA BUCKS FOR LIKIN HER ASS. NITHER U AINT GONNA CHANGE NO ONES POINT OF VIEW ABOUT ISLAM. IF U THINK THAT PPL WILL BELIEVE UR COMMENTS THEN THEY MUS BE ANOVA ZERO METER DODO LIK U. DONT KNW HOW MANY TIMES UR MOTHER GAVE BIRTH TO YA BUT LOOKS LIKE UR DAD DID HER EVERY CENTURY, AND U POPPED OUT EVERY CENTURY TO INFORM US WHAT USE TO HAPPEN THE CENTURY B4. COZ LOOKING AT UR STUPID DISCUSSIONS U SEEM TO BE DISCUSSIN ABOUT THE PROPHETS AND HIS WIVES. WHO DA HELL ARE U TO STATE THAT WADUD IS THE NEX PROPHET, I KNOW U R ANOTHER BUSH BUT LISTEN STUPID JAQAKLINA OR WHATEVA DA NAME, U AINT NO GOD. ONLY GOD SENDS PROPHETS. IF U THINK U ARE, GOOD LUK TO YA. I DONT GIV 2 S**** OR FLIPPIN MONKEYS IF U AGREE OR DISAGREE WID WHAT I AM SAYIN MY AIM IS NOT TO CHANGE UR MIND BUT JUS TO TELL U HOW STUPID U ARE GRAN. U AINT LEARNT NUFFIN ABOUT THE PROPHET I FINK UR LEARNIN ABOUT UR SELF HERE, WHAT A HYPOCRIT b**** u r. BECOZ U TALK S*** U DNT KNW NUFFIN ABOUT ISLAM OR THE PROPHET, I C U HAVE NO FRIENDS THEREFOR U POP UR ASS IN HERE TO TALK SHIT THAT DONT EXIST. U MAYBE WADUDS LESBIAN PARTNER OR U MAY WORSHIP DA COW BUT UR FAKE REMARKS AINT CHANGED NO ONES THINKING ABOUT ISLAM. WEN PPL DO READ UR COMMENTS IM SURE THEY SPIT ON IT COZ I DD IT SEVERAL TIMES. LISTEN GRANDMA POST UR COMMENTS NOT ONCE, OR TWICE, BUT A BILLION TIMES. COZ U ARE RITE ANYONE TAKES PART IN THIS DISCUSSION, THEY HAVE THE RITE TO SAY WHTEVA. BUT STUPID WOMAN only take part in discussions wen u know da tru facts, not just made up ones, thats wat u seem to be doin. i bet u will reply, u may say, u knw about islam and our prophet, and that blah blah blah. BECOZ U TALK RUBBISH, PPL DNT BOTHER REPLYIN AS MANY TIMES AS U DO. COZ THEY KNOW U TALKIN BULLS***. I SUPPSE I WONT CUM BAK TO THIS SITE, BUT PPL LIK U NEED A GOOD CLEAN IN THE HEAD ABOUT ONES RELIGON. PLZ IF U DONT KNW ABOUT THE RELIGON WHY DISCUSS AND MAKE STORIES ABOUT IT.DONT U HAV ANYFINK ELS TO DO, LIK WIPE UR DOGS ASS. ONE MORE THING IN THE PREVOIUSE COMMENTS U STATED "WHAT GOOD DD SEP 11 OR 3 DO TO ISLAM" WELL STUPID WOMAN LEARN SOMETHING, NO ONE MAKES ISLAM BETTER ONLY ISLAM MAKES PEOPLE BETTER. U ARE THE RESULT FOR OUR SINS BURN IN HELL

8 amina wadud talks out of her glutius maximas and thinks she can change our religion, i don't like people of that sort and hope they get badly punished

9 amina talks s**t she bloody thinks she's the flipin queen, but get out of my ass and dont come back in you twit, bug off tworp

10 The approach that Fritz and Usman take - a death threat (w00t, that means I'm being revolutionary) and name-calling - mean that the Muslims have run out of sound arguments against my statements. Typical bully attitude: if you can't argue, then threaten violence and threaten to kill a person. I'll tell you this: murder makes martyrs. To wit: the 9/11 victims. The best thing that conservatives can do now is to leave Wadud and her ilk alone - they'll form a new sect of Islam, and America makes that possible. Any violence, and you'll bet she becomes a martyr for liberal religion. That only increases the determination of the progressives.

11 Hello I find your discussion very insightful. Jacquelina is asking some serious questions. And those who arent able to defend their faith feel that their faith is based on shaky grounds. Or arent you able to use your mind? Quran isnt ready to say you in every way of life what to do. It must be interpreted, as every written piece. Dont you think? Or do you refuse to think about this? Thank you very much

12 http://www.tenrikyo.or.jp/en/teaching/teachings/oyasama.html Hey, look, another Prophet of Allah!

13 Methinks you refuse to think about it.

14 You all will have to understand that the Holy Quran is Perfect and people's interpretations of certail metaphorical and even clear ayats that's wrong And Jacqueline if u want to learn a thing or two bout Islam..then I suggest u ask ur questions nicely coz slander won't take u anywhere Salaam

15 Perfection is in the eye of the beholder.

16 Jacquelina, Mix prayers are not allowed in islam. A women can lead prayer but only to women. God wants us forget world (which is not eternal) while we bow in front of him. In case of amina wadud, she is leading prayers for both men and women touching their shoulders. This is forbidden by God because a slight desire of sex in prayers invalidates prayers and this is possible in mix prayers. Even christianity, jews, hinduism, jainism and many religions dont have female priest or a leader of prayers Y west doenst target their own religion, jews, hinduism ? y only islam

17 Brother in islam, Fritz, don't waste your time on the likes of Jacquelina, she is not worth it. I have read all of her opinions that give me the impression that she is seriously foolish or uneducated. And i totally agree with what u said. unfortunately there are some that get a kick out of manipulating the truth, and "trying" aimlessley to destroy something they dont have: IMAN AND CONVICTION. without conviction they base their argument on logic and and rationality, basically she like her fellow Americans want to see God in his true form, perhaps the Prophets (pbuh) lifestyle on dvd or vhs, before they are convinced of ISLAM. Because this is not the case with islam, and we base our devotion on the miracoulous Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet, not to mention the trust in Allah the Exhalled, these non-believers cannot comprehend this. she is not arguing right or wrong, but she is introducing the primary question: is there God, how do we know etc! As for u jaqulina sista! Don't embarrass yourself further darling cos u have made an utter fool out of urself and ur fellow nation. If you really wana involve urself on the debate of God, faith, i suggest u widen ur knowledge on faith itself, and understand life is not all about Hollywood movies and pornography! There is a way of life out there that entails conviction and faith, spirituality, and devotion to the creator of all creations- and a way of life based on the Quran and Hadiths of the prophet (pbuh) that leads to enternal hapiness in both the worlds. Go check it out. Finally

18 "Mix prayers are not allowed in islam. A women can lead prayer but only to women. God wants us forget world (which is not eternal) while we bow in front of him." And, obviously, some Muslims disagree with you, and have been citing chapter and verse of the Quran to back up their case. "In case of amina wadud, she is leading prayers for both men and women touching their shoulders. This is forbidden by God because a slight desire of sex in prayers invalidates prayers and this is possible in mix prayers." Not necessarily true. While Muhammad may have said so in the past, God might not have been speaking through Muhammad at the time; furthermore, biases of the SCRIBES of Muhammad might have further muddied up whatever Muhammad was saying. Thus, there is no evidence for the invalidation of prayers of people who are, well, horny. Call it a lie if you want to - you don't believe it anyway, but I feel differently from how Muhammad felt. I'm not God. Neither was your Muhammad. "Even christianity, jews, hinduism, jainism and many religions dont have female priest or a leader of prayers" BLATANTLY FALSE. Christianity has female ministers, and Judaism has female rabbis. Tenrikyo (a Japanese religion) was founded by a woman, and, while I don't know much about the status of women in the Vedic traditions, there were likely female shamans in many an aboriginal tradition. "Y west doenst target their own religion, jews, hinduism ? y only islam" Hinduism is not a Western religion, and, besides, Hinduism is more concerned about the fate of its caste system. As for Judaism and Christianity, they HAVE been targeted, and they HAVE been changing for several centuries already.

19 "Brother in islam, Fritz, don't waste your time on the likes of Jacquelina, she is not worth it. I have read all of her opinions that give me the impression that she is seriously foolish or uneducated. And i totally agree with what u said" I'm educated in many ways. I am educated in the Western tradition, which says to question everything, to look for proof, to leave no stone unturned. It is a dynamic kind of education, not a repetitive kind of education. And, of course, any orthodoxy goes around calling the dissenters "foolish". Nothing new here, folks. "Without conviction they base their argument on logic and and rationality, basically she like her fellow Americans want to see God in his true form, perhaps the Prophets (pbuh) lifestyle on dvd or vhs, before they are convinced of ISLAM." You misunderstand the Western way of education. To the Westerner, logic and rationality are the heart of proof. It is the foundation-stone of science. In order for an educated Westerner to have conviction, oftentimes, he or she will require proof. As for the "Prophet's life on DVD", that's obviously impossible, and so are attempts to "see God in Its true form". "Because this is not the case with islam, and we base our devotion on the miracoulous Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet, not to mention the trust in Allah the Exhalled, these non-believers cannot comprehend this. she is not arguing right or wrong, but she is introducing the primary question: is there God, how do we know etc!" Obviously, Islam will do pretty poorly in scientifically oriented non-Islamic cultures, as it is faith-based while science is evidence-based (and thus offers a closer view of the truth, by and large). "As for u jaqulina sista! Don't embarrass yourself further darling cos u have made an utter fool out of urself and ur fellow nation." In YOUR opinion. In my opinion, it's those who rely on faith without looking at the evidence who are fools. And so is those folks' "fellow nation". "If you really wana involve urself on the debate of God, faith, i suggest u widen ur knowledge on faith itself, and understand life is not all about Hollywood movies and pornography!" Please. My arguments are not based on what Hollywood cranks out. They are based on the sort of thinking that American universities crank out. And, YES, this includes Comparative Religion courses, and geology, and other courses where much evidence is pointed out. And some of that evidence runs against what any religion, including Islam, has said by far in its sacred documents. "There is a way of life out there that entails conviction and faith, spirituality, and devotion to the creator of all creations- and a way of life based on the Quran and Hadiths of the prophet (pbuh) that leads to enternal hapiness in both the worlds. Go check it out." Mind if I point out that Judaism, Christianity, Tenrikyo, and spiritualism - as well as Buddhism - offer just about the same thing - a way of life that leads to eternal happiness in both the worlds - and, of course, this presumes there IS an afterlife (which at least one religion, Judaism, hasn't really decided on, and which mainstream science is skeptical about).

20 "BECOZ U TALK RUBBISH, PPL DNT BOTHER REPLYIN AS MANY TIMES AS U DO. COZ THEY KNOW U TALKIN BULLS***. " No, it's because I'm hitting "Reply" and then thinking up something new which you'd likely refer to as "bull----"....so now I have to hit post all over again. As far as I know, I've been getting responses, mostly by folks such as you who think they can bully folks into Islam. Nice try. "ONLY ISLAM MAKES PEOPLE BETTER. U ARE THE RESULT FOR OUR SINS BURN IN HELL " Obviously not. If your diatribe is any guide, it gives the impression that Islam makes people WORSE. Now, I know that Islam makes some prople better.... but so do Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, etc. I am not the result of (or "for") anybody's sins. I am a Westerner. I don't consider myself an evil person. I don't think God does, in spite of your "evidence" to the contrary. Yeah, I have sinned, just as everyone has; however, I feel preaching in favor of liberal religion is NOT one of my sins. You may disagree. As for "BURN IN HELL", the concept of Hell has a long history, but is pretty short on concrete evidence. People (mainly Christians and liberals) have had near-death experiences and put them on record (the concentration of kaffirs and dhimmis is due to the prevalence of Christianity and reasons in the countries the researchers studied), and found the following: about a third or so had an NDE, the vast majority of which showed peace and bliss; there was a rare "hellish" experience every once in a while. (And, mind you, those are NOT Muslims!) Others have had weirder experiences (such as seeing a "giant disembodied hand", but not very many actually saw anything like hellfire. Perhaps hell is a more prevalent vision in Indonesia; culture may well play some kind of a role in how people experience death - but the Quran and Sunnah appear to be but one of a number of possible causes in play here. Perhaps hellfire-and-brimstone preachers are responsible for the largest contributions of lost souls to hell (after all, they preach it so much that it becomes expected by individuals). This cultural nature of death is another reason why scientists are skeptical about there being an afterlife. Also, lobotomies show that different parts of the brain house different parts of one's mind, or soul, and it's apparently possible to prevent communication between part of one's mind and another part with the use of a knife.

21 I might add: Read Kant and you wont need religion. Yes, there is morality without god/allah. In fact such a concept is misleading in finding the right ethics. Life is too complex for only one book.

22 Just in case anyone's still listening: http://www.faithfreedom.org/faq.htm see here, all religions are false, so there.

23 TO JAQUELINA, i would just like to point out that despite your attempts to give a another insight to Islam, as a muslim myslef and reading this discussion, i am not moved or influeneced by your opinions in any way. My faith to me, in fact has become more clear that sadly there are none-beleievers out there that are so desperate to destroy soemthing so beautiful. Primarily, your perspective to islam from a "science point of view" and the "possibilities of misunterpretation from the Prophets" is a reccurent arguemet that boils back to "how do we know there is God etc". To this question, Muslims have the Word of God in the Quran, that its laws and teachings are the safest way to succeed in this life and the hearafter. We believe that this book is a guide to live our life, for we are weak as humans, despite having a brain, god has urged us to witness his signs, which tells us everything that happened in the past, to the prediction of what is to come. in short the Quran is a miracle, And my God, is it spot on! You have to comprehend this before you can progress onto developing respect for this way of life, you simply cannot use "science" or "Western way of interrogation" to reduce this concept. It is your agument against mine that Muhammad was the final messenger of God, (PBUH), an argument that no doubt will continue throughout time. But please, do not argue your case by starting with "what if" what if the quran was misunterpreted, what if there are flaws in the Quran.....etc. remember "looking for alternatives" is another theory, and by no means a method through which religion can be filtered to be "proved or disproved". Islam may be a "myth" to non-muslims, but to muslims it is the truth.how can you urge muslims to "interrogate this truth" when God has told us to have belief, and shown us signs? do u undersatnd this? Your beliefs by no means gives you authority to assess islam through your way of thinking, this is why none-beleivers will always remain proud that islam is "just a myth" "misnderstood" etc, because you assume that you have that authority to dictate your views over everything else. All you have done is reitterted the concept of "Questioning and open to interpretation", which in islam can be applied to everthing BUT the laws of Allah, As Allah created man, so Allah knows what his creation does not know. So please jacquelina, have some respect for other ways of thinking, because you have continuosely emphasised the need to "look for possibilites", take a leaf out of your own book, because it seems as though you cannot/dont wish to respect that Islam is the truth for Muslims, despite what none-believers say, and it is not there to be manipulated.

24 well guys to be honest first of all, there is a very logical reason to why women in islam are not allowed to lead the prayers.And it has nothing to do with male chavinisum or anything ..just consider this example, whenever in an areobic class u have a female instructor, half of the men just stare at her body like pervets .. rather then doing wat they r meant to do ..when a women leads a prayer in a mix congregation , some men might behave in a disrespectful manner , even if they do it unintentioanlly , it will harm their original intent of paryers as well , hence they wont get the just reward as well..the reason is as simple as that , its all about given a women her due respect and maintaining grace.. as far as i remeber in the old english culture it was even considered unrespectful for a women to dismound a horse in front of a man .. so why when it comes to islam all these common sense approach changes , most of the feakin westren media just brands it as women being treated as inferior...when actually its all about maintainings a women grace , it has nothing to do with a women's place in an islamic society , she is still a strong member at her house and in her life as well.. this wadud lady just is another wanna be , just wait she will end up like many other who tried to mould this religion for their own ease.

25 dear readers.. things are going according to God's will and plan. the late Rashad Khalifa accalimed his prophecy in the mid-eighties last century. he was advocating for women to be imams, etc. what recently happened in vew york city is not new and won't be the last trial for women to invent and do whatever thei minds can create. the truth always prevails and stays high. Islam will be kept intact till the end of this world, like it or not. Any invention or innovations in this religion will die as soon as it comes up. thanks.

26 Dear brothers/sisters in Islam, I would like to quote you a hadith right now. Please take something out of it.... "....When ever there was a quarrel/dispute, the Prophet (PBUH) would leave that gathering...." As individuals, we are not suppose to protect Islam, Allah (SWT) protects it as He (SWT) has given muslims that promise. I would encourage my self and then my brothers/sisters to be practising muslims. This is the only way to clear Jahiliyah. We, as muslims, can't blame any of the non-muslims because they are misguided. They believe in giving in to their own desires as being liberation and view being naked as fashionable. Please utilize your time wisely and don't participate in these type of forums, especially when the party asking these questions has no clue about Islam. Just my one cent. Assalam-u-alaikum.

27 Question On March 18, 2005 Amina Wadud led the first female-led Jumu`ah Prayer. On that day, women took a huge step towards being more like men. But, did we come closer to actualizing our God-given liberation? Date 2005/3/28 Name of Consultant AAI Editorial Staff Content of Reply This answer was kindly provided by Sister Yasmin Mogahed, a member of Ask About Islam Editorial Staff. Yasmin is an Egyptian-American journalist based in Wisconsin, USA. She is currently studying for a Master's degree in Journalism. Salam, Sarah. Thank you for your inspiring question! Well, answering your question, I can say that I don't think so. What we so often forget is that God has honored women by giving them value in relation to God-not in relation to men. But as Western feminism erases God from the scene, there is no standard left but men. As a result, the Western feminist is forced to find her value in relation to a man. And in so doing, she has accepted a faulty assumption. She has accepted that man is the standard, and thus a woman can never be a full human being until she becomes just like a man-the standard. When a man cut his hair short, she wanted to cut her hair short. When a man joined the army, she wanted to join the army, and so on. She wanted these things for no other reason than because the "standard" had it. What she didn't recognize was that God dignifies both men and women in their distinctiveness, not their sameness. And on March 18, Muslim women made the very same mistake. For 1,400 years, there has been a consensus of scholars that men are to lead Prayer. As a Muslim woman, why does this matter? The one who leads Prayer is not spiritually superior in any way. Something is not better just because a man does it. And leading Prayer is not better just because it is leading. Had it been the role of women or had it been more divine, why wouldn't the Prophet have asked Lady `A'ishah or Lady Khadijah, or Lady Fatimah-the greatest women of all time-to lead? These women were promised heaven and yet they never led Prayer. But now, for the first time in 1,400 years, we look at a man leading Prayer and we think, "That's not fair." We think so, although God has given no special privilege to the one who leads. The imam is no higher in the eyes of God than the one who prays behind. On the other hand, only a woman can be a mother. And the Creator has given special privilege to a mother. The Prophet taught us that heaven lies at the feet of mothers. But no matter what a man does, he can never be a mother. So why is that not unfair? When asked who is most deserving of our kind treatment? The Prophet replied "your mother" three times before saying "your father" only once. Isn't that sexist? No matter what a man does, he will never be able to have the status of a mother. And yet even when God honors us with something uniquely feminine, we are too busy trying to find our worth in reference to men, to value it or even notice it. We too have accepted men as the standard; so anything uniquely feminine is, by definition, inferior. Being sensitive is an insult, becoming a mother is a degradation. In the battle between stoic rationality (considered masculine) and selfless compassion (considered feminine), rationality reigns supreme. As soon as we accept that everything a man has and does is better, all that follows is just a knee jerk reaction: if men have it, we want it too. If men pray in the front rows, we assume this is better, so we want to pray in the front rows too. If men lead Prayer, we assume the imam is closer to God, so we want to lead Prayer too. Somewhere along the line, we've accepted the notion that having a position of worldly leadership is some indication of one's position with God. A Muslim woman does not need to degrade herself in this way. She has God as a standard. She has God to give her value; she doesn't need a man here. In fact, in our crusade to follow men, we, as women, never even stopped to examine the possibility that what we have is better for us. In some cases, we even gave up what was higher only to be like men. Fifty years ago, we saw men leaving the home to work in factories. We were mothers. And yet, we saw men doing it, so we wanted to do it too. Somehow, we considered it women's liberation to abandon the raising of another human being in order to work on a machine. We accepted that working in a factory was superior to raising the foundation of society-just because a man did it. Then after working, we were expected to be superhuman-the perfect mother, the perfect wife, the perfect homemaker, and have the perfect career. And while there is nothing wrong, by definition, with a woman having a career, we soon came to realize what we had sacrificed by blindly mimicking men. We watched as our children became strangers, and soon recognized the privilege we'd given up. And so only now-given the choice-women in the West are choosing to stay home to raise their children. According to the United States Department of Agriculture, only 31 percent of mothers with babies, and 18 percent of mothers with two or more children, are working fulltime. And of those working mothers, a survey conducted by Parenting Magazine in 2000, found that 93 percent of them say they would rather be home with their kids, but are compelled to work due to "financial obligations." These "obligations" are imposed on women by the gender sameness of the modern West and removed from women by the gender distinctiveness of Islam. It took women in the West almost a century of experimentation to realize a privilege given to Muslim women 1,400 years ago. Given my privilege as a woman, I only degrade myself by trying to be something I'm not, and in all honesty, don't want to be-a man. As women, we will never reach true liberation until we stop trying to mimic men and value the beauty in our own God given distinctiveness. If given a choice between stoic justice and compassion, I choose compassion. And if given a choice between worldly leadership and heaven at my feet, I choose heaven. I hope my words answer your question. In case you have any comment or you need more about the topic, please don't hesitate to contact us again. Thank you and please keep in touch. Salam. Useful Links: Woman Leading Men in Prayer Women Leading Friday Prayer: AMJA's Statement

28 This is to remind you that this sort of arguments are normal 2 muslims,and we should give them no consideration; since we know our religion very well, we are pretty much confident it is the right religion and we do not need people like Wadud or Jacquelina to teach us about islam, either they are ignorant or they need to correct their "virus alike infected info" information gathered from untrusted sources. we have only one version of quran and thus a comprehensive religion unlike other religions; other than that it's all human make up, and of course we don't accept it. I am not here to argue with those people, but to say look at those who studied islam very well and know its truth, they weren't muslims b4, but since they were that much educated, they converted to islam instead, cos they have found their way to the truth, and just to mention here: Wise People Never Look at one side, they get to think, research, analyse then compare, and this is too much for an ignorant to look for, cos "what you miss, you can't give". Eventually even I oppose those comments, I believe in discussions within the boundaries of respect but not violence as this is not in islam teaching.

29 To Jacquilina ( pardon if i spell it wrong) I read your first thread ! You said that Prophet (PBUH) was a human being ! RIGHT! He was a human being. But whats different about him then if he was just like us! Quran describes it "that i'm no one but a human being like you but "wahee" (message of God to prophet) is sent to me" So what he DOES or DOES NOT was not to be treated as actions of a simple human being like us! He was given messages, orders, restrictions (like leading the prayer is not allowed for women !) by God. Your next logical question would be then why a prophet is then chosen to be a human being if he was to be only the carrier of God's messages why not an angel or some other link! Actually we forget here that 'to be guided' is not the problem of God but of us ! WE NEED TO BE GUIDED. WE NEED TO KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG. WE NEED TO KNOW HOW TO TALK TO GOD. WE NEED TO KNOW WHAT TO DO WHEN A CHILD IS BORN WE NEED TO KNOW WHAT TO DO WHEN A PERSON DIES AND OF COURSE WE NEED TO KNOW WHETHER A WOMAN CAN LEAD THE PRAYER OR NOT. So in any of these or other conditions we need some sort of guidance. Now question arises where to get knowledge ! Are we really in need of some heavenly knowledge like that is sent from God or we can make things based on our own logic. (I come to THE POINT AFTERWARDS SO HAVE PATIENCE) Lets take an example. Scenario 1: A child is brutly wounded by a dacoit. He pulls out a knife and cuts his intestines. What will his father do when he sees all this in front of him. He will pull out his own rifle,pistol or in worst case hands out of his pockets and try to save his child in any case .... Scenario 2: The same child has some sort of gastro intestinal disturbance. A surgeon "pulls out a knife and cuts his intestines". What will his father do when he sees all this in front of him. Of course, he will pay doctor for this. What is different in the two scenarios is the PERSPECTIVE with which we see things, with which that particular child saw things and with which his father saw things. To child, both the doctor and dacoit are brutes ! To his father dacoit is brute and doctor is a messiah. So who knows better , the child or his father Of course his father. In the same way Allah , the Almighty has created us. He knows better what is right for us and what is wrong. Whether we should drink or not. Is a man allowed to marry 4 wives or more or not and if a woman can be allowed to lead the prayer. So Allah sent a prophet to us like he did before to guide us from within us so that we dont face any difficulty in understanding his language.We cant make perfect desicion about anything if we dont have the perspective of the FATHER. The best way to teach was to present a modal, and Allah did so! Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was the ONE. He was the model, guided all the way by God, tracked all the way by God. So that's why we call him the PERFECT and do belive in his perfection not because he is 'surprisingly' a perfect human being but he is the prophet(PBUH) sent by God with complete guidance. So all above i explained why do we need to be,live a perfect man for perfect guidance. If you have more comments feel free to ask but as a good 'human being' you should take care of others' feelings. If you want to ask something ask in way that doesn't hurt others ! I dont think so you need any 'logical reasoning' behind that In the end i apologize if anyone is hurt and let me know so that i'll be more careful in the future. And God knows the best (Wallah o Alim bis-Sawab)

30 Benefits of Practicing lkhlas With Allah Shaykh Husayn al-Awaaishah Kitab Al-Ikhlas © 1997 The Daar of Islamic Heritage 1. The Muslim ummah will be victorious, for the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu `alayhi wa sallam, said, what translated means, "Allah only gives victory to this nation because of its weak ones, because of their du`aa', prayer and ikhlas." [At-Targhib wa At-Tarhib]. 2. Acquiring safety from Allah's punishment and wrath in the Hereafter. Allah said about some people who observe ikhlas, what translated means, "And they give food, in spite of their love for it (or for the love of Him), to the poor, the orphan, and the captive. (Saying), 'We feed you seeking Allah's Countenance only. We wish for no reward, nor thanks from you. Verily, we fear from our Lord a Day, hard and distressful, that will make the faces look horrible (from extreme dislikeness to it).' So Allah saved them from the evil of that Day, and gave them Nadhratan (a light of beauty) and joy. And their recompense shall be Paradise, and silken garments, because they were patient." [76:8-12]. 3. Elevation to a higher grade in the Hereafter. There are many ayat and hadiths about this subject, such as the following ayah that describes the abrar (the pious). Allah said, what translated means, "So Allah saved them from the evil of that Day, and gave them Nadhratan (a light of beauty) and joy. And their recompense shall be Paradise, and silken garments, because they were patient. Reclining therein on raised thrones, they will see there neither the excessive heat of the sun, nor the excessive bitter cold. And the shade thereof is close upon them, and the bunches of fruit thereof will hang low within their reach. And amongst them will be passed round vessels of silver and cups of crystal. Crystal-clear, made of silver. They will determine the measure thereof according to their wishes. And they will be given to drink there a cup (of wine) mixed with Zanjabil (ginger, etc.). A spring there, called Salsabil. And round about them will (serve) boys of everlasting youth. If you see them, you vould think them scattered pearls." [76:11-19]. Also, the Messenger of Allah said, what translated means, "The first group that enters Paradise will be glittering like the moon when it is full. The following group will glitter like the brightest planet in the sky; they will neither urinate, nor answer the call of nature, nor spit, nor have any nasal secretions; their brushes will be from gold, their sweat is Misk. The aloes-wood will be used in their centers, and their wives are from Hur al-`Een (Houris, female fair ones, with wide, lovely eyes). They will all look like each other, just as is the statute of their father Adam, sixty feet in the sky." [Al-Bukhari & Muslim]. 4. Safety from falling into misguidance in this dunya, that is, the life of this world. We have mentioned before example to this subject in the story of Prophet Yusuf. "Thus it was, that We might turn away from him evil and illegal sexual intercourse. Surely, he was one of our Mukhlasin (chosen, guided persons who observe ikhlas with Allah." [12:24] 5. Acquiring an increase in huda (Right Guidance), as Allah said, what translated means, "Truly! They were young men who believed in their Lord (Allah), and We increased them in guidance." [18:13]. 6. Residents of the heavens will love those who observe ikhlas. The Messenger of Allah said, what translated means, "When Allah loves a slave, He summons Jibreel, saying, 'Allah, the Exalted, loves Fulan (such and such person), so love him,' and Jibreel will love him. Then he calls upon the people of the heaven, 'Allah loves Fulan, so love him', and the people of the heaven will love him. Then acceptance (honor, content, love, etc.) will be sent down (and spread up [meaning between the community of the believers]) on earth for him." [Al-Bukhari & Muslim]. 7. Acceptance and honor for the mukhlisin, those who observe ikhlas, will be sent down and spread up on earth for them, as was mentioned in the previous hadith. 8. Having a good reputation among people, as was mentioned in the previous hadith. Also, the Messenger of Allah said, what translated means, "Each slave has a reputation in the heaven. If his reputation in the heaven is good, it will be sent down to earth (transferred as such). However, if his reputation is bad in the heaven, it will be transferred as such to the earth." [Al-Bazzar]. 9. Acquiring safety from all types of hardships and disasters in this life, as was mentioned in the story of the three persons who were trapped in the cave. 10. Achieving tranquillity in the heart and feeling joy, content and elation, for Allah said, what translated means, "Verily, in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest." [13:28]. 11. Faith will be endeared to the Mukhlisin, while wickedness will be made hateful to them. Allah said, what translated means, "And know that, among you there is the Messenger of Allah. If he were to obey you (follow your opinions and desires) in much of the matter, you would surely be in trouble, but Allah has endeared the Faith to you and has beautified it in your hearts, and has made disbelief, wickedness and disobedience (to Allah and His Messenger) hateful to you. These! They are the rightly guided ones." [49:7]. We have mentioned before how Prophet Yusuf was made to hate fornication, disbelief and wickedness, and how iman was made beautiful to him, that he preferred staying in jail rather than falling into fornication and sin. 12. Allah willing, ikhlas will guide one to choose the rightly-guided company, those who observe ikhlas. The best example for this subject is that the companions of the Messenger of Allah were friends with each other as they were friends with the Messenger, and who can find a better company than the Prophet and his companions. 13. Enduring all types of hardships in this life with patience. The Messenger of Allah and his companions were excellent in this behavior, for they endured and were patient in the face of all types of hardships, and the proof to this better behavior is detailed in abundance in their seerah (life stories). 14. Acquiring the good end, as is evident from the story of the man who had killed ninety nine persons, but then sought to repent from his crimes. This person's ikhlas in seeking forgiveness from Allah guided him until he died while his heart was coming back to Allah, the Exalted. 15. Du`aa' will be accepted, as is evident from the story of the young boy, the wizard and the priest. Also, an example to this is the story of the three men who were trapped in the cave. This, indeed, is a vast subject with numerous examples testifying to the fact that ikhlas is an essential ingredient that ensures the acceptance of du`aa'. 16. Being rewarded in the grave, and receiving the glad tidings of the joy and happiness that the mukhlisin will enjoy in the grave and in the Hereafter. We have narrated the hadith by Al-Baraa' ibn `Azib which describes how one's good deeds will come in the shape of a handsome man, wearing nice clothes and whose scent is pleasing, saying, "I am your good deeds."

31 To all moslems brothers & sisters, do not waist your precious time on this unproductive issues. Amina wadud is just some women with emotive driven agenda of her pro-feminist perpective for some unproductive publicity. What kind of improvement or progress from her action towards the moslems or to the world community ? Controversy..Don't waiste your time to explain to those non believers. If they sincerely want to learn from their logic & critical thinking cap as their base argument to understand this issues, they should start with neutral perpective first instead with prejudice and falacies judgement. And please brothers, do not curse anybody even the non-believers, that is not the prophet teaching. Moslems should more focus on the Palestinians issues, economis progress, technology development instead arguing with this nonsense issue. Please..wake up..

32 I am back Jacquelina, It is wise to think before you talk. A person full of wisdom is the one who thinks before uttering anything nonsense. If you believe that amina wadud is the prophet than I have no problem with that. In fact noone should not have any problem becuase you know and I know that death will approach us all. So wait for your death. This is not a threat but a reminder because the Creator said to those who deny and utter foolishness to wait until death approaches them. It would be too late for you to change your opinion than becuase truth will be before all of us and none of us would be able to deny it. And if you have no idea what you are talking about than let me make it clear to you. If you believe amina a prophet than ask amina to perform some miracle from the Almighty Creator. Because a person cannot claim to be a prophet without a miracle sister!!! otherwise he/she would be a liar. My honest adivice to you-DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME, EDUCATE YOURSELF BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE. unisys-tech, You did a great job. Well done! I really appreaciate it. fritz, Please don't dirty your tongue and make yourself a sinner before Allah swt. You (Muslims) are the best of the Creation before Allah. If these people utter something, let them. don't pay attention because you know the guidance is in the hands of Allah swt. Allah swt says they have diseases in their hearts and neither they can see or hear. So unless they themselves want and Allah swt opens for them, they will not get even point zero percent. So becareful, don't dirty yourself with dirty language brother.

33 Everyone please wake up. There is no god. Us humans are just the result of 5 billion years of evolution. You all need to face reality and be at peace with all other humans because religion means nothing.

1 Hey Wadud, What you been smoking for real??? I want some of that good stuff too. Iight??? Oh and me and some of my boyz were wondering when you leadin the next one? Gotta check those A$$ out? LADY SHAME ON YOU!!!! HEAVEN DOESNT WANT YOU & HELL IS CALLING YOU!!! (.)(.)---> ( )( )---> THINK WHAT GUYZ BE THINKING...!!! I WANT TO CHECK OUT THE ONE WITHOUT THE HEADSCARF AND THE TIGHT JEANS WHEN SHE BENDS THAT LOOKS GOOD. HOPEFULLY THEN I'LL START GOING TO PRAYER TO EVERY DAY, THANKS TO YOU , MY FRIENDS WILL JOIN TOO THANX AGAIN )

2 Amina, I don't know if I can make du'ah for you, because I don't know if your actions have taken you out of Islam. Your speeches and writings indicate that you think there is no equality for women in Islam, but Allah has made each of us equal in His sight. How we worship Him is what makes one higher than any other. You have studied this deen, how have you allowed yourself to be misguided? You have read ahaadith; you know where every innovation leads. Do you not see the wisdom in sisters standing behind the men, so that the men are not distracted by the temptation to look and the women are not distracted by the thought of someone viewing what is private to them? Standing behind does not make one less of a person. If women leading the prayer of a mixed jumu'ah was a good thing, would not one of the Mothers of the Believers have done it? 'Aishah, the most learned of the Mothers, the one from whom Prophet Muhammad (saw) said "Take from this little red-haired woman", the one from whom the sahabah and the tabi'een learned their deen...wouldn't she have done it? Do you understand something she did not? You have a greater insight than she? I am not questioning you with animosity, but with compassion. Every people in every time have strayed away from the purity of Islam, and this speaks to their misinterpretation of the message, not of any defect in the message. If men have misused the deen for their own benefit and the oppression of others, do not fault the deen, fault the men who have misused the deen. And strive for an authentic, true understanding of it. I implore you, and I adjure you, as I do myself, to make taubah and beg Allah's forgiveness. Do not be so proud as to think you have not sinned. None of us has that luxury.

3 It's sad to hear the uneducated comments of those people that have no idea about that work that Dr Amina is involved in. Who are you to judge another's actions when Allah is the only judge. It is really sad to hear that the only way men can control their thoughts about women is to have the women stand behind them. It seems to me that the men have the problem. Maybe they should stop looking at women as sexual objects to be lusted after and instead mothers, daughters, wives, teachers, and scholars. If you as a man can not do that then maybe you should lower your gaze and ask for forgiveness. Instead youwould rather limit women's opportunities and ask them to take responsibility for your shortcomings. How does this make sense??

4 The comments of Ahmed and Amatuallah are those of children who have neither the dedication or the intellectual capacity to really discuss the topic. Its sad and pathetic. This, however, represents the vast majority of Muslims, people who have read next to nothing, including the Qur'an. People who are obviously unaware of the fact that Mufti Sheikh Ali Gum'a, an Islamic "authority" (from Egypt), along with renowned Islamic scholars like Imam Tabari and Imam Ibn Arabi, who found the practice acceptable. And then theres always how this entire issue caused tremors accross the globe. A woman leads a Jummah jamaat, and this alone causes a great stir across the Muslim world. People beheading female aid workers (Margaret Hassan) in the name of Islam didn't budge them, nor did the years of oppression that was forced upon the women of Afghanistan by the Taliban. I remember the day I heard Saudi religious police confined school girls to a burning building, preventing their escape for their very lives because they were not in 'adequate' hijaab. The shock from hearing of such an atrocity was only dwarved by that of the silence of the "Muslim World" around me. This Ummah that has been silent for so long in the face of the terrible records of treatment in Muslim countries now screams over this jamaat of only 80-100 people. Truly amazing. Shame on you.

5 Dear Sister Amina, I have just cited some of the letters condemning your plan to lead a mixed congregation. I am also aware of the protest made by the general Muslim- of course mostly men-folk, appearing in the media. On my part I am neither in a position to commend you nor to condem you. But I have no doubts in my mind that those muslims who criticise you for leading the prayer are behaving irrationally and their outburst betrays a medevial worldview on male biased gender discrimination.There are some who have brought the charge of blasphemony on you. Ironically, charging you of blasphemy is in itself an act of high shirk.They have taken upon themselves the role of Allah (Nauz-zo-billah), to outrightly reject your prayers as though Allah had communicated to them His judgement. Indeed, these are the people who are mis-guiding themselves and mis-guiding others, and creating Fitna. As for your gesture to lead a prayer, God and God alone is the judge. The first inspector of market in Madina, in Calif Omar's time was a woman. There is no dearth of learned and scholarly women in Islam who have guided muslim men in juristic and religious matters.Even this very day atleast in two pre-dominantly muslim countries, we have women heads.In many muslim countries, notably Indonesia, women judges pass final judgements.There are great many women scholars today, who lead men in the academy, business and other lawful pursuits, which are nothing but practical elements of the deen of Islam. Prayer and supplication are the spritual side of Islam. If women can lead the practical side, what stops them from leading the spritual side. The fact of the matter is that the present day muslim community is clinging on to the notions and values of their ancestors' pre-conversion faiths. Women have been comdemned in all the scriptures, except the Quran, so Muslims today who condemn you are under the influence of the scriptures of other religions, though they claim to have belief in the Quran. All I can say is that God is the best judge, whether you qualify to lead the prayer or not. Those who criticise you, are unquestionably mis-guided, and my only prayer is that God shows them the right guidance and delivers them from the emotional grip of paganism and other corrupted faiths to which their ancestors belonged.

6 I think that what you did was a good thing, for islam. In a article in the Herald sun stated that Women don't reprosent islam, if the don't why do they make them wear the hijab and make the faste if the are not reprosenting islam.

7 Ok. What the heck is going on? I am a Muslim woman and I am ASHAMED by Wadud's claims and action. You can't study Islam for all these years then claim that women are not equal to men in our great religion. Are you for real, dear? Is this why I, along with many other Muslim women, feel so respected and sometimes even feel MORE appriciated for being a female in Islam? If you don't get that feeling, then maybe you've got some issues. Also, this is obvoius stupidness. I'm sorry but this is all I SEE. If you want to get attention, you can do other GOOD stuff, rather than listening to your Zionist buddies and getting bribed by them to make this stupid stupid STUPID thing. I don't know what happened in your childhood or teenage years that's making you crave for attention now, I think it's the Zionist money that I talked about earlier, or maybe the Devil has decided to ride you. Just because men are the ones who're supposed to lead the prayers, it doesn't mean that women are oppressed. I wouldn't -at all- feel comfortable praying in front of men, for that I wouldn't want them staring at my body at a time where all of us should just be concentrating on pleasing Allah. If there's anyone who's stealing my rights, it's you, Amina.

8 Also, those people who claim that the first two responses are those of children, could you please clarifiy WHY? Like, what are your arguments? And hahahaha funny message, Asif. First you say that you're not taking sides then you start talking about how mis-guided people who criticized her were... Please, STUPIDNESS ASIDE.

9 Asif Alim, it doesn't occur to you that its wrong to call some one a pagan. You have no wright to judge anyone. You need to BEG God for forgiveness.

10 Asalaamu Alikum, this whole charade is just ridiculous. Allah assorts in the Quran that men and women are equal, throughout the history of Islam women have been held in high regard. Aisha (May Allah be Pleased with HER) was one of the greatest women who has walked on this earth and she never led a single Salaah, so why should this idiot of a woman who is only scum be allowed to.What would Mary, mother of Jesus, again one of the best people to ever walk on this planet, who even has an entire chapter of the Quran named after her think of you?....SHAME... SHAME.... SHAME.

11 Peace be upon All, To Dr Amina Wadud, Regardless of the common openion from all Muslim scholars all over the world about what you have done, Think about the "Fitnah" you caused between all Muslim just to prove something in your head. Do you take this responsibility in front of Allah? Remember that Allah said in the Quran: "and who is more astray than one who follows his own lusts, devoid of guidance from Allah? For Allah guides not people given to wrong-doing." Al Qasas [28:48] May Allah guide you to the right path Saifolislam

12 AsalamAlaikum wr wb Can't agree more with Raya, Ahmed, Amatullah and other sensible people. It blows my mind when I read people writing in defence of Amina. She and her supporters indeed are ignorant people and will have the curse of Allah SWT in this life and hereafter. Folks, take this as a reminder,we need to be "patient" and save our energies and time, lets spend our time and energies on learning more about our deen than discussing the issue over and over on tons of forums out there discussing this. MaSalama Mr. What

13 “The Real Issue Is Not Whether Women Can Lead Prayers. The Real Issue Is Can Quran Simply Be Disobeyed In The Formulation Of Community And Individual Policy.” Sister Amina Wadud’s stunt of leading the Friday prayers has focused the attention of the entire world on the issue of whether or not Islam affords women equal rights. Ms. Wadud’s claim is that the traditions of the Muslims, not Islam is flawed. Her aim is to amend fourteen hundred years of injustice, and bring the Muslim woman into the light of full participation in Muslim affairs. I believe, and I think that most sincere Muslims would agree with me, that there is a more important matter that must be debated before we can settle these very important issues with consciences that are totally submitted to Allah, and dedicated entirely to fostering the mission of The Final Prophet. Dr. Wadud’s leading the prayer is a non issue and merely an ill conceived stunt. Ms. Wadud and many people who are arguing positions under the label of “Progressive Muslims” are really challenging the absoluteness of Quran’s authority as the Muslim community’s Infallible Ultimate Criterion. Ms. Wadud made a statement last Friday that she has a right to say “no” to The Quran. Many self named progressive Muslims agree with her. And they seem hell bent on propagating this foolishness especially in countries where Western Secularism dominates and protects this kind of attack. In my opinion this is the real danger posed by Wadud and the people who would follow her as Imam. The Muslim community certainly needs to reform some ethnic traditions relating to women. But who and what shall decide the legality of issues that are ambiguous. Some issues are obvious. Clitorectomies are illegal. Forced marriage is illegal. Depriving women of the right to education is illegal (Of course this issue begs the question of what is the difference between education and Westoxicating indoctrination). Honor killings are illegal. There are other issues that are very ambiguous however. Shall Muslims invade the communities that practice clitorectomies and force the residents to cease and desist? If they don’t, do we fight with those people who violently resist? Who decides what is legal and what is not? Another non issue that so called Progressive Muslims banter about is the issue of hijab. Quran clearly forbids Mumin women to leave their houses without Khimar, but is disobeying this Quranic edict a sin or a crime? Does the state have the right to force women to obey the Quran? Do parents have the right to “force” their daughters to obey the Islamic standard of decent dress? Do husbands have that right? There are many more examples, which I will not go into here. I am raising these issues not to discuss them but to point out the fact that there is a huge difference between, educated guessing, personal preference, and Jurisprudence. Sister Dr. Wadud and her crowd are thrashing around in an attempt to muddy the waters of discernment in order to blur the lines between them. Most of the Regressives, to include their leadership, are not Jurists. It is certainly not conjecture to state that most of them admire Western freedom more than they cherish Muslim servitude to God and the preservation of The Straight Path to God’s Favors called Islam. Most of them will trust a Ph.D. in psychology or political science before they would trust a man who’s spent 30 years of his life in formal study of Quran, Sirah, Hadeeths, Ethics, and the 1400 years of Islamic precedents that one is required to master before Jurists of similar rank look to him as a human ayah of God. The Final Prophet, and the Divinely Guided Imams are not walking amongst us in this age. Without these high standards of scholarship and service, any brazen fool with enough arms and enough men can change an entire generation’s view of Islam. This was one of the arguments of the proponents of The Islamic Republic of Iran’s political concept called Waliyah Faqih, or the authority of the Supreme Court Judge. Any serious Islamic Scholar has the right to use his common sense and interpret Quran for his or her self. He or she is only responsible for his or her self. But according to the school of Ja’far Sadiq, only the highest level of Jurist has the right to issue fatwas for others. In this school of thought people have the right to express their opinion bring their evidence and argue their view. But they do not have the right to make what has been deemed haram halal, and what has been deemed halal haram. And their opinion will never trump the opinion of the Highest Level of Islamic Jurist. the “Unimpressives” are attempting to do just that. This movement of aggressive foolishness destroyed the integrity of the holy books of those who came before us, which eventually destroyed the authenticity of their religion. These backward looking progressives seem to want to rupture the seams of Muslim ethics by throwing out the baby with the bath water in this post modern era of Pax Americana. Muslim means to submit to the letter and spirit of God’s Divine Guidance as it’s been revealed in the Muhammadan dispensation of Islam. I call on my brothers and sisters in faith who are living here in the West to be very careful before they pledge allegiance to a masjid whose philosophy is quick to adopt any rash, and radical deviations from Quran, and the works of the best of our Jurists. Those who are not ready to bow their will with those who bow will find themselves in the same position as Shaytan on the day when there is no choice. Opinions are often fueled by the fires of passion. But everything we desire is not good for us, and everything we detest is not bad for us. The Faithful Muslim adjusts his or will to say we hear and we obey. These people are not too proud to bow their passions to the sober Earthy Prophetic Truth. This point must be understood and heeded in these days of confused loyalties due to ethnocentric arrogance, Western intellectual elitism, and an Ummah that’s atomized, and consequently easily victimized. Allah help us all. Shaykh Ali Abu-Talib Son Of AbdunNur

14 Salaamz. Personally, i agree that Amina Wadud was wrong in leading a mixed congregation. But what upsets me more, is the way the media have publicised this event, within a few hours the whole world was talking about it! Are there not more urgent issues that need addressing in the Muslim world, our brothers are being mercilessly slayed in palestine and Iraq, our sisters are being raped by soldiers in Iraq-if such a fuss was kicked about such issues, if such attention was given to such issues, would it not stir emotions, would it not create an urge in Muslims and nonmuslims alike to try and stop these atrocities, by creatng such a fuss about Wadud's actions, we as Muslims are achieving nothing but ridiculing ourselves in the sight of the Kuffar-maybe thats what they want, to make a mockery out of Islam. Wake up Muslims, your energy and passion is required urgently in more serious issues, use it positively!!!!

15 As a non-muslim I do have a comment because though I addmitedly don't know much about Islam, I do have a rather healthy conception of female repression. The mere fact that women aren't allowed to lead a mixed congregation is, without a doubt, regardless of traditional practices, chauvenistic (sp?). It's no different from the same practices in Christian churches that say women can't lead services. I am a student of Dr. Wadud and personally interact with her in a small class of 6. She really summed it up by pointing out how sick a religion can become when they won't even allow people to pray. And though that is paraphrased, I can do nothing but agree with her because Paying homage/respect/appreciateion, etc.. to God shouldn't be censored in today's age regardless of ancient traditions. God designed humans to be progressive and to learn from life. If women were truly equal in Islam, there would be NO limits, or Restrictions on them that would not likewise be placed on men.

16 This was never practiced during the days of our Prophet (SAW). He explicity asked us to pray as we have seen him pray. Was he ever lead by a female in prayer? Hadith is there to help us follow the Prophet (SAW)'s lifestlye and to help guide us in life. He was the most upstanding Muslim, and the safest way to stay on the correct path is to do as the Prophet (SAW) did. InshAllah Amina Wadud will repent for her mistake, and will no longer commit such acts of blasphemy. Those who argue that times have chanced...all I can say is that Islam is everlasting and not bound by time. The word of Allah and the teachings of his Prophet (SAW) are for all the ages, through all of time. Anyone who believes the opposite surely has little respect for our creator and his gift to us that is Islam.

17 According to Alex, Amina said that a religion is sick if it doesn't allow people to pray. If that is true this woman has very little respect for Islam. A woman, by the word of Allah Almighty, is not allowed to pray while she is menstruating. Does that make Islam sick?

18 sami, you wrote "A woman, by the word of Allah Almighty, is not allowed to pray while she is menstruating". Would you please be so kind to share with me this ayat(s) in the Quran. please be specific, and use only the reference you cited, the Quran. Thank you for your response. Student

19 There is definitely a correlation between the comments written by those with a superior education and support for Dr. Amina Wadud. Rudeness and incorrect spelling, on the other hand, are abundant in comments of the others. Outstanding achievements require outstanding people. A very positive contribution has been made by a very brave and unselfish person.

20 The spread of Islamic misunderstanding and the Constitutional Rights of Americans seems to have been missed by those of you have cavalerically written your comments in reaction to an event about which you apparently know quite. I myself am so ignorant as to be ashamed to offer these humble words for your consideration.Dr Amina Wadud is a Woman of African American Heritage. She is multi lingual and has obtained a Ph.D from U.Mich and is recognized by scholars around the Muslim and non-Muslim world for her research, knowledge of Arabic, and of the Qur'an. She represents the seekers of knowledge of the time of Prophet Muhammad, and of the great scholars at the height of Islams 'golden age'. Because she has accepted the blessings of Allah (to us all) to seek knowlwedge, to ask, to inquire, to question (as ALlah allows in the Qur'an) lessor minds follow the tracks of those who feel threatened by free, responsible inquiry and free and responsible speech. What frightens them about this woman? That she questions the translations of Qur'an of previous and most current commentators. Did they critcise the translation of Yusef Ali, a translation tailored to Christian undertanding, written in the biblical language of King James. It is filled with words and concepts, in the English- which are alien to the Islamic Worldview. Where is the critique of that? Dr Wadud had n-e-v-e-r stated that she does not believe the Qur'an is from Allah. She has never committed blasphemy as a writer above asserts. Blasphemy too is a Christian concept. She is not an Apostate from Islam, either. But those cowardly ones among the many Muslims who fled oppression of their Deen in their homelands have assume the role of their oppressors, here. I challenge them to take their fight for the 'Purity' of Islam to Mubarraks's Egypt. to the British controlled 'Kingdoms' in Bharain, Kuwait, Dubai, or to Saud's Arabia, etc. Dr Wadud stands here, in her home land freely and courageously and responsibly asking the questions of many Muslims, and sharing her concerns and search for understanding with we who also search. Look at what you have written and said here. Then, cite the Qur'anic justification for what you have said and have encouraged others to say and do regarding this Muslim woman. F. Thaufeer al-Deen, Chicago, IL

21 1) Everyone has the right to their own opinion 2) All opinions should be unbiased. 3) We should respect other people’s opinion, as we expect the same from others. I am a Muslim, but I am not as learned as probably most others, as I write now, I will write on what I understand in general. We humans are weak, we are afraid. We have difficulty in believing what is not seen, or that can be held. Some, are also afraid of what can’t be seen or when it’s is dark. Because of this we are inadequate. We need guidance for every step we take. And then, there are a few whom are not weak, are not afraid, possibly does not have difficulty in believing what can’t be seen or heard, not even when it is dark. These are the people whom over the centuries, have become leaders, or of people in power. They know what they want, and in what they believe in. Not for one moment do I not believe that Amina knows in what she wants to achieve in doing what she has done. For me, whatever one says, more times than not, does not reflect what the heart actually believes in. I don’t consider this as wrong as sometimes, we never tell what our heart truly desires. It is only human by nature. But before one starts to act upon whatever actions that one wish to perform, let me just state a few things that I believe in. 1) No action can be performed without the will of Allah. Nothing, absolutely nothing can start/act before Allah say’s it’s ok. To breathe, talk, smile, walk, eat, absolutely nothing. So, we only act upon his will. 2) No action can be deemed right or wrong, good or bad, just or unjust as only Allah knows better. What we humans may think of good may reflect otherwise, as ONLY Allah knows best. Then some may ask, if all is the will of Allah, why am I to be blamed for what I have done? Well, the answer is simple, “The mind/Free will”, something that differentiates us against all others. It is how we act or react to situations that will condemn us. As most Muslims will know, the hands, the eyes, the mouth all will be against us on judgement day. They will related what deeds that have been done. So, how we think, the formation of the road to our conclusions on how to act or react to any situation will be the downfall for each and everyone of us. But never the action, as the root of the problem stems on how we came to the conclusion. To my brothers and sisters of Islam, for every action, there will be a reaction, if not now then later. Hold steadfast to Islam and be patient. Peace be upon you.

22 I'am surprise that Bush and his allied call you a professor in islamic studies, but unfortunately you don't know anything about islam and muslim. You are just a so call prof. I'm very sure without doubt that you are only sponsored to do that. Mind you Allah has promise to protect his religious no one even ten million Bush and his allied can destroy it. I'm just sorry for you for one day you shall meet your lord and account for your deeds.

23 As-Salaamu 'Alaikum. Eah of us needs to know that Allah (S.W.T.), in His majesty, and Beneficent nature can forgive all sins and mistakes. For a surety, this act was not one which would have occurred during the times of our beloved Nabi (S.A.W.), therefore it could be looked at as an innovation in the religion. We are only human.We will make many mistakes, and we break the rules of Islam on a daily basis. May Allah forgive us. This woman is still a Muslim, regardless of the mistakes she may have made. We should still treat her with respect. Allah knows best the errors that have been made, and no one should trample on her dignity by calling her scum. When our Deen is under scrutiny, it is instances such as this which shows the fortitude and resilience of Muslims to remain united in the face of adversity. May Allah grant us patience and constancy to follow His Example to us in Muhammad (S.A.W.). Ma Salaama

24 Thank you Ali Abu Talib for making the very important point that Dr Amina Wadud's views regarding the Qur'an are enormously more problematic Islamically than the simple fact that she led the Jumu'ah prayer to a mixed gender congregation. No, F. Thaufeer al-Deen, Chicago, no-one has asserted that she does not believe the Qur'an is from Allah or is guilty of blasphemy. Nor is it simply 'that she questions the translations of Qur'an of previous and most current commentators'. This woman teaches that we should, in her OWN WORDS, 'say "No" to the Qur'an', and that she 'intellectually and spiritually' cannot accept certain injuctions of Allah. What does that mean except that she has not beieved Allah to be al-'Aleem, the ALL-Knowing, al-Hakeem, the ALL-Wise, and that she considers herself more knowledgable and wise than the One who conferred knowledge and wisdom to her, a contradiction in terms if ever there was one. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but if that opinion is that you do not agree with Allah then you forfeit your claim to Islam, which by its very definition is to be in submission to Allah, that is, to surrender to Him completely: physically, spiritually, intellectually and otherwise. The Messenger, salla 'llaahu `alaihi wa sallam, said "None of you BELIEVES unless his desires are subservient to what I have brought" (an-Nawawi from Kitab al-Hujjah). Allah says, "It is not for any BELIEVING man or BELIEVING woman, when Allah and His Apostle have decreed a matter, that they should (after that) claim any say in the affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His Apostle, he verily goes astray in manifest error," (33:36), and "What! Will you then believe in part of the Scripture and reject a part thereof? And what is the reward of those who do, save ignominy in the life of this world, and one the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievious doom; for Allah is not unaware of what you do," (2:85). This, my friends, is the issue that we (and, it would seem, Allah as well) have with Dr Wadud. P.S. As for Natalie's remarks that 'there is definitely a correlation between the comments written by those with a superior education and support for Dr. Amina Wadud. Rudeness and incorrect spelling, on the other hand, are abundant in comments of the others', I would like to direct her and everyone else's attention to muslimwakeup.com - Dr Wadud's main supporters and the convenors of her Jumu'ah and the representatives of the Progressive Muslims of North America - whose pages abound with the most grotesque obscenity and filth I have ever seen on a website purporting to be Islamic (or, for that matter, religious). Peace.

25 Bottom Line Amina Wadud is a stinkin Mushriq Kaffir who obviously is trying to deter men and women from islam I wouldn't be suprised if the Feds don't have something to do with this clown. She is so far from the sunnah of the the prophet (saws) and her followers are kuffar. You can't take from an innovator she is a Mubtadi. A ruling has already been dropped on her from Qur'an and Sunnah presented by the Ulamaa of the salaf. She is a kaffir who has deviated and she is leading people to the fire. Men and women praying side by side what the hek is this church. Let alone this idiot let salah in a church with her misguided and ignorant followers who obviously want to practice the religion of islam like christians practice whatever they practice. Allah states that he is pleased with the religion and it is complete. Whoever takes something out of the religion and whoever puts some newly innovated thing in it will never be successful. Don't be misguided cause she is a so called doctor when it comes to deen she is ignorant. This can only happen in New York where anything goes.

26 Assalamu alaikum. Some people claim that this action is allowed as it is not stated in Quran and Hadeeth.Prophet(S) said that surely after he leaves there wd be confusion.He said we shd stick with the opinion of the salaaf or pious generation of muslims.If I interpret Quran and Hadeeth as per my own free will, I wd end up with a new brand of islam.So, understanding must be "As understood" by the sahabah becos they witnessed islam and are the first to graduate as muslims,and learnt islam from the cheif of mankind.So,No sahabah has ever said or allowed abt women leading men in salah.In islam,we cant make new rules and say,"Well, its not mentioned in Quran and hadeeth."Becos,the new things we make can please our eyes,can look very very islamic,but it is a bid ah.Prophet(S) had said that every bid ah is going to hell fire.When we make new things in islam, we either mean that the Prophet(S) has forgot to tell the ummah abt such a great thing, or we indirectly say,"We are more wise and clever than the Prophet, for we introduce things that even he did not imagine to."May Allah protect us from bid ah.The enemies of islam are trying to bring this issue and prove to the world that Women are suppresed in islam.As a muslim we shd know that men and women are not equal.They have their degrees in different lines.Men are better in some aspects while women are better in some.So the genders must nt compete with the other in doing the other's responsibility.Some people claim that ibn Arabi approved it.Ibn Arabi is a heretic who claimed that "Allah is all and all is Allah".He was influenced by greek mythology of pantheism which is not of islam.Some muslims say,"why make a fuss of this while muslim brothers are dying?"For that I need to say,"When my islam is dying,I have no other thing of more concern." Amina Wadud should fear Allah and understand the Quran and Hadeeth as understood by the sahabah.

27 amina is just a mad woman.period.

28 Wudud's attempts to "spice up" islam to suit her african american lifestyle is nothing more than a joke. her argument that women should be allowed to pray alongside men, will never be tolerated, as everone knows claims that lack authentic evidence from the Quran or hadith means nothing more than a deviation from the pure islam.therefore, muslims should not concern themselves about her stunt, as it is clear from her interviews she is craving attention with her "new innovation to islam". she has clearly "decontextualised" (her own words) the Quran and made her own interpretations, which as any true believer knows is surely a misguidance.Islam has no room for "progression" or modernisation, as long as the majority of believers follow the authentic Islam, People like Wudud would soon be forgotten figures, and islam remaining intact from falsity. so brothers and sisters, who are we kidding, take no notice.

29 follow the link to see how men and women are equal in islam http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=14167

30 amina..please don't be an american dog

31 Amina Wadud is being a corageous woman. She is standing up to the idea that the Quran is infalliable, and naturally, it bothers the Muslims. Now, I am not a Muslim. However, I understand how the Muslims feel. In my religion, today is Purim, a holiday commemorating the mercy and kindness of what was then Iran's leader, one King Ahasaurus, upon recognizing what his Jewish wife was telling her about a man, Haman, who was all about to upset the state of what passed for an ummah in the Iran of those pre-Islamic days by murdering all the Jews. Now, it was a WOMAN that told the king of Iran that a great evil was about to befall Iran, and the king listened. (Granted, he may have been aroused by her, but this was secondary to the fact that she bore an important message.) Muhammad may have had ulterior reasons for shushing his wives. He obviously wanted to be a leader, or God wanted him to be a leader, or the Angel Gabriel, but the effect was the same - Muhammad was led to shush his wives so that he could prophesize. I am not quite sure why Muslims consider his prophecy to be true and the word of God - where's the evidence? Or are you believing this based on allegations of a Judgement Day? - In any case, Muhammad might have made mistakes along the way, and who would've noticed? Everyone was charmed by Muhammad, just like Moses, just like Jesus, just like the Buddha, just like Avalokiteshvara. Now, you might shrug me off as "just another kaffir", but there are reasons why kaffirs insist on kufr, just like there are reasons why Muslims insist on Islam. And - mark my words - I am SURE that Shaytan (or Satan) is NOT the only reason for kufr. Some of you think that Allah is the cause of everything. I think that people have free will, and I also think that Muslims were too hasty to accept Muhammad's vision of judgement day without looking to see if there was actual evidence of its truth or not. Wadud was right to play the doubting Thomas here (indeed, the Catholic term for this is "devil's advocate", a term some of you might find apt, although she isn't really advocating Shaytan so much as she is advocating thinking for oneself.)

32 Amina Wadud is a devil, an open enemy to Islam and the Muslims. SHE IS NOT A MUSLIM. She told her audance in Canada that she was a nigger. She has clearly said that some of the commandments in the Quran are wrong, like cutting off the theif's hand. To believe Allah revealed verses in the Quran that are unjust and unacceptable, makes you a kafur an unbeliever. I pray to Allah that she openly repent for what she has said and done or Allah destory her in this life and place her in the Hell Fire. Ameen

33 I know Amina personally and all discussion of her actions aside let me make it clear to the world that she is not in the pocket of The Devil Bush. As a white male Christian and American I can say with absolute certainty that both her and I oppose the evil acts of Bush against the Muslim people of the world, most especially Palestine and Iraq. God willing, do not let this issue cause fire among the Muslim people I love so dear. Bush and his evil republican allies are the real enemy to peace and justice in the world. Your attention should be focussed on this much more important issue. Amina is doing what she believes in right according to the knowledge Allah has created in her. She is a person of profound submission to Allah, let no twisting of the tounge tell you otherwise. Let someone show me where the Qur'an, sunnah, hadith, or any other work or action of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, prohibited women from being spiritual leaders. I urge you not to reduce yourselves to name calling and passing the Judgement that only Allah can give. If you disagree with what Amina has done, debate it, but do not decry her relationship to Allah...you have no right! There is an evil force in this world, and sadly, its origin is in my backyard, and all people who love Allah (God) and submit to His will, let us stand together, not fight within, and confront this force of evil. Although I follow the practices of Christian faith, I love the same God you love. Only language creates a barrier that makes us believe our Gods are different. There is but one God, God. And in that spirit of Tawhid, I would die to defend my Muslim brothers and sisters from oppression and tyranny of those who seek to rape and pillage from them. We must stand united. Peace be upon you all.

34 To the liberator, your question "where in the Quran or hadith does islam prohibit women from becoming spiritual leaders". Let us first clarify Wudud's claims. she claims that women should be allowed to lead prayers for mixed sex. This is clearly violating the practice of the prophet (pbuh) as never in the lifetime of the messenger has he stood behind a woman leading prayer. This is the reason why she is causing uproar umongst the Muslim community. You have to understand that unlike any other faith, Islam emphasises the importance of following none other than the Prophet (pbuh), and simply believing in Allah alone without respect for the messenger is not Islam. The Quran has clearly informed us that The messenger pbuh, is the best example to mankind, if he never practiced such custom some 1400 years ago, who are we to introduce such practice now?. So to answer your question: No women cannot lead mixed sex prayers, simply because it was not done by the messenger. Looking for possible interpretations to innovate new practices will never be tolerated. Furthermore, miraculously Allah has warned us about this in the Glorious Quran decades ago, about followers going astray. Not only this, Wadud argues that the the predomint islamic faith is patriarchal. Allah has told us that women and men are equal in the sight of Allah (swa). leading or not leading the prayer does not indicate the superiority of one sex over the other. Again one has to question the connotations associated with the term "leadership", through the lens of the Western world as someone "positioned" before others. Islam is univesal, and not specific to one continent, race, decade or culture. As muslims we are accounted for our actions and our deeds equally in the sight of Allah (swa). and there is no difference between our devotion to Allah. protesting to "lead" prayers to make women equal to men, is clearly a western concept, not only does it indicate the lack of understanding Wadud has for Islam, but her lack of trust: if Allah says we are equal then why is she questioning this for the whole world to see?

35 above comment by Samara

36 Assalamualikum wr wb First of all its realy sad 2 hear this coming from a muslim sister.What is this ummah coming 2 these days.In Islam we are given rights according to our respective roles.Allah in his hikmah has given us responsiobilities that we are able to deal with.Allah states in the Quran that men and women are equal,yes but then again women are not allowed 2 lead saalah as folled by sunnah! so how can a women lead whereas not even Aaishah(RA)sallah.And we have 2 follow according 2 the QURAN AND SUNNAH!!! Anyways may allah guide us 2 da siratulmustakim AMEEEN

37 let me give yuou some advise....BEG FOR GODS FORGIVENESS.......because you neeed it. I am studying in a Islamic boarding school and I have learned that women CANNOT lead men in prayer and it clearly states that in the Quran so how can you call yourself a Muslim when you go against the words of Allah. I think satan has got a big inflounce on you. When you say anything about Islam could give us referance from QURAN AND SUNNAH ONLY. Yor putting all us muslims down. The only reason some people follow you is because they dont have a clue about Islam so why do you think no one allowed you to pray in thier mosques. I think you should wake up and come to reality!!!!

38 Asssalmu alaykum After hearing all this i am really ashamed, i am studing islam right now i go to a islamic residential college. Also i have been taught from day one that a women leading mixed-gender prayer, is against islam. Amina is a professor she from all people should know that this is wrong. i hope you ask for forgiveness soon so that you can be saved on the day of judgement. Let not shaytaan misguide you. as for maryam you say that men should lower their gaze. if you remember in the story of yusuf. Allah says that if yusuf never wanted to let zulaika seduce him he would not be a man. but allah saved him., it is in the nature os a man to be attracted by women. this is in the creation of Allah now how can they change the creation of islam. salaamu alaykum

39 amina wadud it's a great shame on you and those that are behind this so call gender equality you're into, i want you to know that if truely you are a muslim you must have read the hadith that talk about women leading in prayers but never in mixed prayer. i wanr\t you to know that you are satan in disguise and Allah anger shall befall you. you can never innovate anything in the religion of God not even you are backed up by jinn and fellow men

40 To Sama, I respectfully submit to you that, The Prophet Muhammed, Peace be upon him, never used a computer, never drove a car, never used a condom in any sexual relations, never used a telephone, never sent a fax, never spoke from a microphone, and a host of other things. Are you to argue to me now, that because the Phophet didn't do these things that no Muslim in the world should do them today? Is this not the same logic? Please explain how you can differentiate this, since the Phophet never prohibited or said it was wrong for women to lead pray (please cite specific text if you disagree with my conclusion). Your arguement is that because there is no record that he permitted it, one has to assume that it is not permissible, but like I said there are hundreds of other things Muslims do that the Prophet did not, simply because of the times. I believe the Prophet would have approved of women leading the prayer, but because of the customs of the pre-Islamic period it was not considered. Anyway, I would appreciate your response to these points. Peace be upon you all.

41 AMINA I WILL KILL U. U ADD A NEW THING 2 ISLAM .GO 2 HELL.

42 To the Liberator : what you believe doesn't give u the right to change the Islamic religion according to the times. As a Christian and an American, just stick with what you believe. Don't try to stir up more problem in the muslim world.(Anticipation of death is worst than death itself)

43 Hassan Syed's sentiments have no place in decent society. He just wants to murder people for being alleged kaffirs. This is what's wrong with Islam today. 9/11 DIDN'T HELP ISLAM EITHER! 3/11 DIDN'T HELP ISLAM EITHER!

44 Islam can be changed. Islam has changed in the past (when it went to new cultures, to Indonesia, to Egypt, to Turkiye, to Iran) and it will change in the future. Change, even when it violates what the Prophet Muhammad did, is no stranger to Islam, and Amina Wadud is quick to point that out.

45 Wadud is not Satan, or Shaytan, or anything evil. She just wants to open up Islam to the realm of possibility. I don't find anything wrong with that.

46 Dr. Amina, or just Amina Wadud has earned hell for herself by disobeying hadith. she has nothing to back her action up. If you think that since it doesnt say in Quran that a female cannot lead a prayer, than thats a garbage reason. It doest say in Quran either that a hindu cannot be a priest, or a christian cannot be a priest. so, should we have a non-muslim lead a jumah prayer, because Quran doesnt stop it? Quran doesnt stop is from using opium either. Should we do it? I m not anyone to judge someone's action, but if you see someone killing somebody, what would you do? would you say that killing is wrong and killer is a sinner, or you would say some grabage like " who am i to judge?" atleast u can say its wrong. and people who think that men think that they are superior, and dont think that women have enough rights, they are wayyyy too wrong! women has even more rights given to her by islam. women is like a gem, and a diamond is safe when not fully exposed. feminists who fail to understand that, i pity you.

47 people who dont know a thing about islam are favoring Amina Wadud. For example, Jacquelina thinks that its ok to violate what Allah and Prophet Muhammed SAW said. now, a true muslim would never say that. true, that we are all sinners, but even thinking of changing islam is stupidity. because of people like jacquelina, muslims are fighting among each other, just cuz THEY THINK that islam can be changed. let me tell u this; islam cannot be changed, cuz islam is Quran, and Hadith. If they cannot be changed, how can u change a religion based on those things? go back to grade school and learn elementary islam. may be preschool is better for u.

48 I repeat what I say before, as it is NOT stupid. (Maybe picking KKK as a name is stupid - do you really identify with the Ku Klux Klan?) Change produces beauty; therefore it is a good thing. Allah loves beauty. The great mosques arose because folks dared to get creative about Islam and change the setting in which it is practiced (and this has continued into modern times, too). Islam changes each time we add a light bulb to a mosque. Islam is not merely Quran, or Hadith - it is all the practices that surround Quran and Hadith, it is how the Quran and Hadith are interpreted: whether Quran and Hadith should be taken LITERALLY or FIGURATIVELY, whether Quran and Hadith contains errors by Muhammad or the scholars writing down what Muhammad dictated (remember, he was illiterate), and the degree of influence that Quran and Hadith have on life with modern technology. Islam is all of those things. Are there not light bulbs in Mecca?

49 Amina has earned herself a place in heaven, for furthering the progress of humankind. May Allah bless her and keep her, amen.

50 Sami
"According to Alex, Amina said that a religion is sick if it doesn't allow people to pray. If that is true this woman has very little respect for Islam. A woman, by the word of Allah Almighty, is not allowed to pray while she is menstruating. Does that make Islam sick?" I can assure you that Dr. Wadud has the utmost respect for Islam. What she doesn't have respect for is patriarchy which, unfortunately, exists everywhere else, and when you look to God and religion for solice in an otherwise backwards world you don't want these evils infiltrating religion. I support her because the same things have happened in my own Christian religion, and the Lord has allowed me to see it's wrong. Similarly to how Dr. Wadud has been gifted with this insight. Also I would like to clarify that I was "paraphrasing" what she said. The words are not exact and I don't wish for her to be quoted as having saying those exact words. The jist, however, remains the same. Samara
"This is clearly violating the practice of the prophet (pbuh) as never in the lifetime of the messenger has he stood behind a woman leading prayer.""The Quran has clearly informed us that The messenger pbuh, is the best example to mankind, if he never practiced such custom some 1400 years ago, who are we to introduce such practice now?."
At that time women were considered property. There are multiple manners in which this can be shown, but I think perhaps the practice of poligamy illustrates it well enough. One man... many wives. Notice that this did not work visa versa. Now I think it can be noted that today women have reached a level of liberation that (for the most part) they are not neccessarily "owned" by another person. Now that women have more of a place in society, perhaps they deserve the same rights as men in their religion.
On a different note altogether, is it not a possibility that at the time there was not a woman who was qualified to lead a mixed prayer? AND can you say without a doubt that TODAY the prophet would not stand behind a woman in prayer? I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that there is no passage in the Qu'ran that says "Women can't lead mixed prayers." If it did, then I would be convinced that Dr. Wadud was in violation of her written religion... but it doesn't, so I'm not. If I'm not mistaken (and please correct me if I'm wrong) the prophet said, "pray how I pray." That is a little vague, and by a little I mean extremely vague. The obiously male interpretation of that passage is probably as disasterous as The white male interpretations of biblical passages that have been wrong used to justify satanic actions (pre-emptive wars for one)
"Allah has told us that women and men are equal in the sight of Allah (swa). leading or not leading the prayer does not indicate the superiority of one sex over the other...if Allah says we are equal then why is she questioning this for the whole world to see?" You're right about one thing. Allah said that men and women are equal. If that is the case then why can't women lead a mixed prayer. Why is it that people are saying that Dr. Wadud in front of an audience of men would provoke sexual energy. Shouldn't men learn discipline enough to control their own thoughts. That is the patriarchy. It makes the impure thoughts of men justifiable... when men should learn to control themselves. Dr. Wadud isn't questioning what Allah says, she's questioning what the religion does. She loves her God and is not content with being a robot. Justjool
"what you believe doesn't give u the right to change the Islamic religion according to the times. As a Christian and an American, just stick with what you believe. Don't try to stir up more problem in the muslim world." You must understand, it isn't a changing with the times she is looking for. She's not reinventing the religion, so to speak. She is simply questioning the original interpretation and traditions of Islam. What exactly is the harm in that. Also, as a Christian and a believer, I am sticking with what I believe, because I BELIEVE that we are brothers and sisters. This isn't a matter of stirring up problems, it's about breaking molds that the world has made so that we can all grow closer to God, in whatever form or name you call God. HASSAN SYED
"AMINA I WILL KILL U. U ADD A NEW THING 2 ISLAM .GO 2 HELL." Well YOU, are just precious. Thank you for your insightfullness, you dear,sweet,little thing you Jacquelina I second your Amen

51 I just wanna know how much extra credit Alex and Jacquilene are receiving for being the few people that continue to voice support for Wadud in face of a huge opposition. This woman should not be teaching. She is akin to a wandering ruthless barbarian who is held captive by her fancies! Islam changes, but it must maintain its essence. Prayers as they are are OUR RELIGION, not "a tradition" that is outdated or needs changing. Stop spreading this poison. Seek refuge in Allah from the shaytan and your deviant desires.... once you stop implementing Allah's words and following his commandments, you become a slave to your own ego... "Doctor" A'otho billah min ashaytan ar-rajeem. May Allah guide everyone to his love and true implementation of the Quran and sunnah, Ameen! O Allah, save us from these signs of the day of judgement!!!!

52 Oh I'm sure she'll give me an A for defending her name against a small handfull of people she'll never meet and doesn't care what they think about her. But you are wrong, Prayers as they are in YOUR RELIGION are tradition and if they are based on that one passage I quoted earlier. That passage is vague and could EASILY be interpreted otherwise. Just because they weren't interpreted that way before doesn't make it wrong to rethink the interpretation. What's wrong with standing strong against opposition. If more people did that then America would overthrow its corrupt government. It's sad when you close the mind God gave you for tradition's sake, i hope you can get out of your spiritual complacency and grow.

53 Amina...........exactly how much did BUSH pay you?...and as for your personal opinions on equality,homosexuality in islam etc, wel wadud consider reading and UNDERSTANDING the QURAN properly without the interference from the shytan. PS. no one has given you the right to change Islam. Islam is not based upon YOUR STUPID opinions, it is based upon Allah and how he wants us to lead life.According to Muhammed's ways of life. Muhammed IS THE EXAMPLE TO BE FOLLOWED NOT YOU.. May Allah forgive you....for he is the most merciful

54 The name is Jacquelina, thank you very much. I am not a member of Ms. Wadud's class; I happen to agree with Dr. Wadud's line of thinking. Islam happens to be based more on Muhammad than on Allah, for it is based on Muhammad's CLAIMS of what Allah said - through an angel, no less - to Muhammad. Bottom line: Muhammad had enough manuevering room and enough time to put his own selfish twists on what he claims he heard.

55 Tenrikyo is an example of what Islam might've looked like had a Japanese woman founded it. (After all, Oyasama (pbuh) was a Japanese woman...)

56 To All including Amina Wadud, Islam is a complete religion and was completed at the time of the Prophet PBUH. If Amina wadud has chosen her way of islam, than she should know where her place would be in hereafter.According to Islam, we cannot guide ourselves and therefore we need the Creator and that Creator will send us a teacher to give us the message of the Creator. That teacher is the Prophet send to every nations. If we disobey the Prophets, we are our own and we chose to disobey the Creator and to disobey the Creator is to ask for his punishment. The only way to escape from the punishment of the Creator is to follow the messengers and Prophets only. Therefore, it is very clear for us to either disobey and choose hell or obey and choose the gardens of paradise. The choise is ours and we cannot force anyone. Now, a message to my Muslim brothers and sisters is that we cannot waste our time on what Amina Wadud is doing because Allah will take care of her for He is all seeing and hearing and nothing is hidden from Him. Our Job is only to spread the message of Allah for Allah and ask Allah swt to guide people to Islam. And Allah swt promised this religion will spread no matte what. The truth will spread and Allah says that He will make truth known and false known amongst the people. May Allah swt guide us and protect us from every fitna. Please my brother and sisters in Islam, don't waste your time arguing with the ignornat for it will only create mischief. Our Prophet said to say salaam u alaikum to the ignorant one and don't argue because it will only create mischief. May Allah swt forgive me if I said anything and grant us jannah. ameen ya rabbal a'lameen. Don't worry this is only a trial and the biggest trial would be the dajjal and we have to prepare ourselves for it. Call Allah and Say LA ILLA HA ILLAL LA MUHAMMADUR RASOOLULAH-- THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH AND MUHAMMAD PBUH IS THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH. SUHANA RABBIKA RABBI IZZATI AMAYASIFOON WASALAAMUN AALLAL MURSILEEN WAL HUMDULILAHI RABBIL A'ALAMEEN.

57 Sure, Islam will continue to spread, and so will the so-called "heresies". Since the Islamic world protects Islam, and the Kufr world protects Kufr, both Islam and Kufr have a position in the future. As for what the hereafter is, all your logic is based on faith in what Muhammad said, and let's leave it at that.

58 Dear brothers and sisters, Muslims and Christians who have contributed to this debate so far. As you all will agree that all of us are apt to see a thing, especially if it’s new with our own lenses – and our liking or otherwise of the new thing is determined by our mindset. If three hundred years ago a then enlightened Hindu had proposed the banning of the Sati (burning a widow alive at the funeral pyre of her dead husband), he would have met possibly greater opposition than Amina Wadud receiving today. The same is true of innumerable custom based practices from the right of killing one’s wife in the great Roman Empire to burying alive new born infant babies in pre-Islamic Arabia, slave trade in the medieval era, printing of the Qur’an on a printing machine, use of microphone for proclaiming the azan and so on. In fact one can cite innumerable examples of customs, things and institutions which were objected to when introduced and accepted with time. So mere objection to a novelty does not establish its unlawfulness. Those fellow Muslim who are now opposing the learned Professor (the courtesy that Amina Wadud deserves even if we differ with her) all seem to be blind to the fact that the religion of Islam is for all people for all times. Any effort to restrict its boundaries to the culture and customs of the Prophet’s era will mean freezing the advancement of Muslim society to the seventh century Arabia. But if this was the intent and purpose of the Qur’an or the Prophet (Peace be upon him), the Muslims, after the Prophet’s death would have continued to live in mud houses, read no books, used no new product of advancement from handkerchief onwards. But this did not happen. The early Muslim made phenomenal advances in practically all fields of knowledge, built mansions and libraries and set the stage for the later developments in Europe. So the theory that we must follow the ways of the Prophet, that is, his era is fallacious – nay pugnacious. Just let me ask a few questions to the brothers and sisters who are so zealous about following the Prophet’s ways: 1. How many of you (brothers) would have married an old widow and lived with her in chaste wedlock for practically all your life (the Prophet lived in monogamy for 25 years)? 2. How many of you (brothers), if you were to assume the power and authority of the Prophet, would decline to assist your loving daughter with a maid for grinding wheat? 3. How many of you would hold back from spending anything on items of luxury – TV, Car, Ac following the example of the Prophet – who continued to mend his clothes, repair his wooden sandals and milk his camel even as the head of the Islamic community, when he could avail of great luxuries of the era.? 4. How many sisters would consider donating their rings and jewelry, and parting with their real assets to help the needy? One can go on citing examples to show that we Muslims today are not following the exemplary moral conduct and behavior of the Prophet or those of early Muslims. There is a clear verse in the Qur’an (33:21) which urges Muslims to follow the uswate hasana of the Prophet. All those of my brothers and sister who are not aware of this must go back to their study of the Qur’an before crying crocodile tears about following the Prophet’s ways. And if they insist that the Qur’anic repeated injunction to obey and follow the Prophet implies following his physical habits and customs, then they must leave America and Canada immediately and seek a refuge in the heartland of a desert that has yet to see the light of civilization. The great poet of Pakistan wrote these words about the fellow Muslims in Urdu: Phul ki pati se kat sakata hai hire ka jigar Marde nadan par kalame narm o nazul be asar: Rendering: A flower’s petal could possibly pierce through the heart of diamond But the Noble Discourse has no effect on the ignorant. So those people who are acting God by denouncing Amina Wadud are nothing but ignorant and no surprise there are so many of them. However there are a great many people who support Amina Wadud because they think what she has done only reflects the greatness of Islamic message and does not breach any of Qur’anic injunctions. The question of a woman leading a Friday congregation did not arise at the time of the Prophet because it was an era in which the women had absolutely no opportunity of developing her potential as an individual. The Qur’an gave them power. As God’s creation and an individual the Qur’an treats a woman on equal footing as men and does not bar a woman from acquiring knowledge – religious and secular. So she can become an ‘alim,’ and to make a point of her rights as a Muslim woman, she may also lead a congregation prayer, as Prof. Amina has understandably done. Those who don’t agree with her, can keep away from her congregation but can not commit the ‘shirk’ of condemning her prayer and that of the congregation. They should be more concerned about their own fate on the Day of Judgement than that of Amina Wadud and her congregational assembly. Hundred fools together do not make a wise man. Likewise, a hundred wrong arguments can not refute a right argument. So those who are denouncing Amina have no basis to assume that they are right simply because they are so many of them. The paucity of response in favor of Amina on the other hand is due to the reluctance of the learned to keep away from the ignorant as commanded by God. However let this response serve a challenge to all those who have demonized Amina Wadud to seriously reflect on the comment of Allama Iqbal cited above and look at themselves in the mirror. Thanks Aamer

59 EXCUSE ME PEOPLE!!!! WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON??? SINCE WHEN DID THIS ISSUE INVITE NONE-BELIEVERS TO GUIDE MUSLIMS ON WHAT IS PERMISSABLE AND NOT??? This recent stunt by the so called Muslim Amina Wadud is something that the muslim world has to deal with, and whether they agree or disagree with her is NONE OF UR BUSINESS! Ppl like JACQUELINA, THE LIBERATOR AND ALEX, u guys are kaffir yet u stirring this very much clear-cut debate, by using words like AMEEN, PEACE BE UPON U, ETC, who gave u the right? BUTT OUT OF THIS DEBATE , cos firstly as lacking the essence of the islamic faith, U do not have the knowledge or spiritual devotion as a muslim to share the anger and frustration of the muslims around the world. Go find ur excitement somewhere else, simply cutting and pasting bits of quotes from the internet does not give you an ioto of permission to involve yourselves. As for Jaquelina, you clearly reminded us muslims that u are a kaffir, so why the hell are u addamant to reach us that we muslims are wrong, and Muhammad (pbuh)was not perfect??. obviousely u are not happy in your own religion so you use up your spare time trying to fabricate lies, distort and manipulate Islam to make it a mamsy pamsy religion like yours....Well this is a message to all u guys alike, listen to it loud n clear: INSHLALLAH ISLAM WILL ALWAYS REMAIN PURE IN IT'S ORIGINAL FORM, MASHALLAH JUST LIKE THE MIRACULOUS QURAN THAT HAS BEEN INTACT FROM THE TIME OF THE PROPHET (PBUH). Islam is an example to the rest of mankind, that truth overrides false.This is the essence of this beautiful faith, so do yourseles a favour and go manipulate another religion. sorry to disappoint u guys but the Amina wadud case is already forgotten as we speak, so u are wasting ur time!

60 Assalam alykum bro's and sisters in islam, just to further make u aware the persistent aim of the kaffir to destruct ISLAM, listen to what Jacquelina stated in another discussion, ASTAGHFIRRULLAH.... "I submit to you that, regardless of what Muhammad (pbuh) said about being the last Prophet, that Amina Wadud (pbuh) is the next Prophet." well this tells us a lot about what goes in in the minds of people like Jacquelina, as clearly this Amina Wadud case for them is not an chance to simple have their say, NO, its more than that. An opportunity to dismantlte islam from its very authentic meaning based on "lA ILLAH HA ILLALAHU MUHAMMAD DA RASOOLALAHO" Be aware that it is more than this as we can see islam is a threat to them, by saying that Amina Wadud is the last pro (cant even say it cos it makes me sik), kaffir are looking at every chance to destroy islam.

61 The liberator, and Jacquelina is one person lol! and God knows how many other names he/she is using to try and make it out like there is a majority opinion that Wadud is right! GET A LIFE, and stop using girlie names to manipulate the truth!

62 For the record, I haven't used "Ameen," "PBUH," "Grand Puba," or anything of the Islamic Jargon that presents itself here because I am not Muslim. Also I have no intention of "guiding" anyone. I'm simply posing a point, socially, that Islam might be 1400 years stuck in the past. Similarly to house most of Christianity is stuck 2000 years in the past. I've seen it with my own religion and I know the dangers that it poses. We've all been raised to believe certain things and when you've been raised to believe them, allowing yourself to go beyond what you've been told something means and actually seeking what is right... is difficult. But the religion has changed with what is deemed "socially acceptable" not religiously acceptable. If you use audio eqiptment in mosque it is a flagrant violation in accordance with what you are arguing because the prophet didn't use it... but I bet you would think that is okay. A lot of you are avoiding the points that are being made by those of us who are actually making points. Most of the return answers contain the same comments in different words which show preprogrammed answers that have been instilled in your brains. Regardless of your views Samara I DO regard everyone that believes as my brother or sister. I'm simply posing ideas as a friend that likes for people to use the brains that God provided them.

63 To Alex, Maybe my point is not registering in ur head! let me clarify: islam has no room for modernisation and progression to shape around the selfish desires `of mankind. Muslim follow the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (pbuh) clear from lies and perfect in its original form. To change islam would be to change the very fundamental sources Quran and Sunnah! which part of this do you not understand Alex? you fail to understand that the Quran tells us what is permitted and not, as well as the Sunnah of the Prophet. This is clearly documented. Therefore NO, ALEX WE ARE NOT AS MUSLIMS PERMITTED TO CHOP AND CHANGE WHENEVER WE FEEL LIKE IT, OTHERWISE ISLAM WOULD BE SIMILAR TO CHRISTIANITY WHERE ANYTHING GOES, EVEN GAY POPES!. The sooner you understand this the better for u. Unfortunately ur American society has brainwashed u to interrogate everything, with your FREE SPEECH bullshit, therefore it is so difficult to grasp Islam, based on something far greator than one can comprehend. If u cannot understand anything else, remember this: The quran is not the word of mankind, man has limitations. The Quran is the word of God! (yes diffefent from the bible which yet till this day is unclear who the author(s) were.) So our purpose is to follow the Quran, not interrogate it come up with other ideas. we are not God! and nor is Wadud. Furthermore God tells us that we must follow the prophet (pbuh) therefore as muslims we do EXACLY WHAT HE DID/DIDN'T, certainly not IMAGINE what he would have done if he was alive today! Again we are given clear instructions about this. END I urge all muslims not to waste their time on this issue, those that lack undertanding are the ones at loss.

64 I am not "The Liberator". It is true that I am not a Muslim. It is also true that you are quoting me out of context: I have said that "no Muslim would believe that Wadud is the prophet" and that I "probably" didn't believe it myself. The reason I didn't say "definitely" is that nobody seriously considered evidence for being a Prophet or a Messenger other than, apparently, a) Muhammad being a convincing person and b) Muhammad being an unorthodox, illiterate poet, as far as I know. (Feel free to put more evidence in here, and I'll consider it.) Any religion has room for innovation in it; even Islam does, as the variety of social practices in various Islamic cultures (and the variety of Islamic architecture!) shows. There are Shiite and Sunni sects of Islam, and underneath, such schools as the Wahabbi and Hanbali schools - the presence of different schools of thought alone shows someone, somewhere, has been innovating Islam. Moreover, Islam has been hamstrung by the fact that the scribes of the Prophet didn't have proper writing materials. They wrote on rocks, leaves, the occasional parchment, etc., and then went about making other copies and inscriptions (presumably) over the next several decades. The Uthman Quran was the result of the first "definite" codification of the Quran, and at least one copy survives today. Between the time of first inscription and codification, there is plenty of potential for changes, errors, etc., to slip into the first codification of the Quran.

65 "Grand Puba" is Islamic jargon and not European Tourist Jargon ("Grand Poobah")?

66 "Furthermore God tells us that we must follow the prophet (pbuh) therefore as muslims we do EXACLY WHAT HE DID/DIDN'T, certainly not IMAGINE what he would have done if he was alive today!" ROFLMAO! Am I to believe, then, that Muhammad used a computer and the Internet, as you so obviously did? "Unfortunately ur American society has brainwashed u to interrogate everything, with your FREE SPEECH bullshit, therefore it is so difficult to grasp Islam, based on something far greator than one can comprehend. If u cannot understand anything else, remember this: The quran is not the word of mankind, man has limitations." Of course, one could likewise say you were "brainwashed" on believing the Quran, but "questioning everything" might lead one to Islam (as it did Malcolm X) as well as lead one to question the foundation of Islam (as it did me). Because Islam is "far greater than anything comprehendable", one might argue, it is impossible to prove true or false. Unfortunately for Islam, so are numerous other religions, and so is science (all of which are attempts to comprehend the incomprehensible). Also, while the Quran may be "the word of God", it was written down by man. It was lovingly copied, I'm sure, and carefully bound by a compiler, I'm sure, but they were humans who wrote down and bound those words, and (of course) they made mistakes (see here: http://answering-islam.org .uk/Quran/Contra/). (Note: In all fairness, the Bible also has inherent contraditions, and I find it humorous when Christians and Muslims go around debunking each other's holy scriptures while attempting to prove their own.) "This is clearly documented. Therefore NO, ALEX WE ARE NOT AS MUSLIMS PERMITTED TO CHOP AND CHANGE WHENEVER WE FEEL LIKE IT, OTHERWISE ISLAM WOULD BE SIMILAR TO CHRISTIANITY WHERE ANYTHING GOES, EVEN GAY POPES!." Okay, the fact that you have rules which are documented is not in question. What is in question is whether or not, in fact, God authored those rules and intended them to be followed; as well as whether or not all of the rules came from the same author. Muhammad's illiteracy is a complicating factor in a way; it forced him to use scribes, and he had to rely on other folks to verify what the scribes wrote down. Because of this, those scribes may have wielded a power over future interpretations of the Quran that Muhammad - or God, if It indeed authored the Quran - never intended. No doubt more than one person heard some of what he said; nonetheless, some scribes probably relied on hearsay after the fact as well as direct testimony (memories aren't always perfect, y'know). On at least one occasion, Muhammad had to correct himself (see http://answering-islam.org .uk/ Quran/Contra/qi032m.html); this obviously sounds like an imperfection on the part of your "Prophet"); moreover, there are also contradictions that may have arisen from collecting from multiple scribes and documents that may have had to do with matters other than Muhammad. The Quran may be part of something greater than humankind can understand, but it is also a flawed document. Note: due to Website addresses being considered "questionable", I have broken up some of them with spaces.

67 Oh, and btw, the Pope isn't gay. At least, I don't think so.

68 Darling do you honestly think i am going to go down ur road and get into a debate with you about whether or not Muhammad pbuh was/ was not the prophet of god? I dont think so. "Its better to run away from the fool than to try and make them understand!" U lack conviction, and only Allah guides whom he wants to guide. U will find that no one is replying to your pathetic remarks because they dont want to waste their time on a fool who is clearly twisting our faith to reduce it to another religion. and i wont lower myslef either. Silly people like you dream about the day when islam is "open to interptetation", this u will find, will never happen. That's why kuffr like you cant help but shove ur noses into debates about Islam, as an opportunity to finsish Iman. I am certainly not going to try and prove to u why i believe in Allah and his messenger, and to think that i will give u Quranic verses, u are more foolish than i thought. The quran is too precious for the likes of u and this site. If u are able to count, add up the responses in this thread and u will find the majority of "Muslims" reject Amina Waduds actions, what do u think the response is around the world? so end it there dear, like i said islam will reamain pure from false, no matter how much u try and play around with the teachings of the Prophet (pbuh). I thank God i am born muslim and i have faith, with my conviction i am able to see the clear signs of Allah, and those that are misguided, and above all how to have patience with the enemies if Islam.

69 "U lack conviction, and only Allah guides whom he wants to guide. U will find that no one is replying to your pathetic remarks because they dont want to waste their time on a fool who is clearly twisting our faith to reduce it to another religion. and i wont lower myslef either." Obviously, you are. Why? Is it some desire to "get in the last word"? Never mind that some folks feel all religious folks are fools. I'm not one of them. I'm pointing out that even my own religion is a religion, like all others, and so is Islam - I am not reducing anything; I merely have a lower view of Islam than you do. "Darling do you honestly think i am going to go down ur road and get into a debate with you about whether or not Muhammad pbuh was/ was not the prophet of god? I dont think so. "Its better to run away from the fool than to try and make them understand!"" No, but I obviously think there's doubt for Muhammad's being the prophet of God (or at least the final prophet, or at least with all of his prophecies being accurately recorded or spoken from God), while you obviously dont. I came on here to express support for Wadud. You and other non-kaffirs came here to offer reasons against Wadud. I support the change of religion. You don't. You're not going to convince me either, so what's the point? All I ask is to ask questions about why Islam is the way it is, and whether it could be improved upon. You want people to say "no" without considering why. I want folks to consider why, and then make an answer after consideration. "Silly people like you dream about the day when islam is "open to interptetation", this u will find, will never happen. That's why kuffr like you cant help but shove ur noses into debates about Islam, as an opportunity to finsish Iman." I'm not being silly: Islam is already open to interpretation. It has always been. Even when there is one dissenter in the meanliest hut, one scholar arguing over the problems inherent in the Quran, it shows that one is interpreting the Quran. In America, and in Europe, numerous folks are interpreting Islam. "I am certainly not going to try and prove to u why i believe in Allah and his messenger, and to think that i will give u Quranic verses, u are more foolish than i thought. The quran is too precious for the likes of u and this site." That's okay, more "fools" have sites prodding into the Quran- both for and against - elsewhere. Besides, the Christian missionaries are making short work of the Quran, just as the Muslim ones are of the Bible. I'll leave the arguments to the missionaries, as they know more than I do on either book. "If u are able to count, add up the responses in this thread and u will find the majority of "Muslims" reject Amina Waduds actions, what do u think the response is around the world?"" Please note: a majority of Muslims is NOT all Muslims, and, further note, there is such a thing as progressive Islam. What Wadud did is just an opening salvo. "so end it there dear, like i said islam will reamain pure from false, no matter how much u try and play around with the teachings of the Prophet (pbuh). I thank God i am born muslim and i have faith, with my conviction i am able to see the clear signs of Allah, and those that are misguided, and above all how to have patience with the enemies if Islam." But Islam was never "pure" to begin with! There have been dissenters in every age, including the Bab. There will always be dissenters from Islam. There will always be dissenters within your Ummah, too, no matter how often Muslims deny it. I know how to have patience with the friends of Islam, too.

70 Just in case anyone's still listening (I doubt it): http://www.faithfreedom.org/faq.htm

71 The Grand Puba thing was a joke... I don't know if anyone remembers him... he was a rapper... sometimes I joke. Samara, I'm not proposing you change the written word of Islam, I'm saying you rethink the interpretations. This is not a matter of text it's a matter of how and who reads the text. You can restructure Islam without changing or straying from the words of the Qu'ran. I'm not going to address your free speech comment... other than to say it's interesting to find someone who enjoys repression. There is no reason to interrogate the Qu'ran, just its interpretations. I'm pretty sure that Jacuelina has covered evey other point that I would have in a rebuttal to you Samara, and I thank her for that because you saved me valuable time and energy. The only other thing I would suggest is that you brush up on your Christianity (Catholicism in particular)you lack what I would think is common knowledge in relation to the religion. Perhaps I'm wrong though. I'm glad you were born into Islam too... I'm sad that you were likewise born an idiot, Samara. Your failure to thouroughly address the points that Jaqualina and myself have made has lead me to believe that we aren't going to get anything more than cookie-cutter replys from you. I hoped for a little more than that, but I shouldn't have expected it I suppose. I do however wish you well being and spiritual growth.

72 Alex, I can see you are disappointed that you have not managed to successfully take me away from my firm belief in Islam. even though it seems that you and jacquelina seem to be the only ones here that are soooo desperate to dictate your opinions over eveyone else. Hmmm I wonder why??? As of your proposed questions, like Jaquelina's and many other blind kaffir's that i come accross on a daily basis: ISLAM HAS NO ROOM FOR INTERPRETATION! which aspect of this do u not understand??? you call me the idiot? you are the fool if you honestly think you have a relevant point, you certainly have not convinced me or any other beleiver for sure. You propose that i rethink the interpretation of the Quran, and how does that work when you yourself and jaquelina have no clue on the matter, i doubt you have never read the Quran! i know jacquelina hasn't. lol and you still think u have a valid argument? You have no knowledge on Islam, therefore how can one expect u to have respect for a faith, let alone understand its history and formation? As for me being repressed, lol typical coming from a kaffir like u, anyone who doesn't follow your ways of thinking often end up being labelled as repressed, illiterate, opressed" etc, and who gave you the authority? Finally, wish u guys luck in finding out why you are on this planet, as i can see you have some serious questions that suggest you are not content in ur beliefs.For you guys to go out there on a mission to destroy islam, shows how desperate one can get to eradicate something they lack in their own lives. U guys must really be sad! For Jacquelina, waduds case for "progressive islam" most definately an illusion. Time will tell how far she gets, thats if she escapes murder by the time this is blown over.So do urslef a favour and dissect another religion, because islam is too good for that.

73 A- KKK doesnt HAVE to mean ku klux klan. they r my initials, but we arent talking about anyones name here, so get that straight Jaquelina. B- u r comparing changing in religion pertaining to change in technology? meaning if gettin a light bulb was inevitable in Mecca, gettin a Female muslim prayer was a necessasity too? thats BS. only a moron like you would use that stupid analogy. i dont see any hindu lady as a pundit, or a jewish female rabbi, or a male pope. they arent creating a whole dramatic situation of gender equality, cuz they arent insecure like that wadud lady. anyone with a brain would never consider puttin a new bulb as a change in islam. thats change in a mosque. a building, for sure. change in islam by adding a bulb? jaqui honey, u need to either AA or shutup, cuz u dont make sense to anyone!

74 make that "female pope" instead of "male pope" it was a typo.

75 bottom line is, we shouldnt waste time on arguing with Alex and Jaq, cuz if u wanna argue with a retard, u gotta bring urself down to that level, which i m sure us muslim bros and sis dont wanna, cuz obviously calling our prayers a tradition and using light bulb analogy to justify change in a religion are childish thoughts, and i m sure alex is in 1st grade and jaq didnt start school yet, and someone is typing junk on their behalf. ;-) know wat u MUST know before think what u wanna think.

76 Bismillah Jacquelina, name is not the issue here. KKK or PPP or whatever it is, thats not important.at first, i didn't want to write anything. but after reading the messages posted by jacquelina, i just want to say a few things. jacquelina, could you please clarify that if you are a muslim or not? because if you are not, its not right to talk what you really don't know. by the way, islam doesn't have to change with modern times nor with the technology. i'm not an islamic scholar, but i do know how to read qur'an and i understand it. so please comment after you fully understand about what you are talking about. About wadud, if shes a pure muslim, i'm ashamed that some people want superiority during this short life. who knows maybe tomorrow you might die, and your soul will return to Allah . and then when he questions you, what would you reply? shame shame. i still hope that allah show you people the right path and may allah forgive all your sins. Allah is the most merciful.

77 Assalam alykum aalee, No jacqielina is not a muslim, this is what she said in her discussion: Astaghfirullah "5) I submit to you that, regardless of what Muhammad (pbuh) said about being the last Prophet, that Amina Wadud (pbuh) is the next Prophet." she has come here to try and put filth into the minds of muslims by arguing that we may have got it wrong, that Muhammad PBUH made mistakes, and we should not follow him. She is basing her argument that islam has been changed, and the Quran is not perfect, by comparing it to the use of technology in mosques; ie light bulbs in the mosque, as a progression in islam! Dont waste your time with her because you will find that she and alex are here to try and convince you that God does not exist, and there is no proof...like she has made an impact! whatever! dont get excited jacqulaina u "havnt made a revolution" as u said, u are a joke!

78 This is also Jacquelina's own words: Has it ever crossed your mind that Muhammad was a human being, and as a human being, he wasn't perfect, that he had biases and carried cultural baggage in the form of traditions? Perhaps those traditions were so chauvinistic that he couldn't help but shush his wives. Astaghfirullah, hope u go to hell for ur comments about our beloeved prophet PBUH, u stooopid fool.

79 bismillah: as salaamu alaykum have you noticed everytime there is a deviancy from quraan and sunnah its always praised by non muslims Allah (swt) says the non muslim will never will be satisfied until they can deviate you from guidance i'm no scholar, but i know of no ayat in the quraan or any ahaadith which permits mixed prayer even at home being lead by a women as muslims we are supposed to follow the sunnah of rasoolullah (saw) and clear warning is given to us about adding or subtracting anything from this deen (bidda) let Allah (swt)deal with this woman and her motives and lets not give her any attention obviously thats was her aim and those who despise islam whats next? gay imams? wa salaam

80 It's sad that your reaction is to falsely accuse myself of trying to sway your beliefs and convince you the God does not exist. I assure you this is not the case. I'm just sad for you because you have lost your ability to think and understand your own religion because you are brainwashed. As for female Rabbis and Popes, I can't really speak judaically but I was raised Catholic. I think the Pope is a joke. I could care less about the gender of the Pope, because I'd rather not see a Pope at all to be perfectly honest. Let me reclarify. Not only am I aware that I cannot "destroy Islam" because I am a nobody, but that is not at all my intention because, for the record, I LIKE THE ISLAMIC FAITH AND FEEL IT HAS PURPOSE. I didn't expect to sway your faith Samara. I want you to love God with all of your heart, which I'm sure you do or at least feel you do. I apologize for slandering you, I do not truly feel you are an idiot. I just hate when people turn their God given minds off and refuse to think without any reason. Where in the Qu'ran is there a passage that says "there is no room for interpretation in the Qu'ran" It doesn't so you can't back that statement up. Your Dogma has clouded your spirituality and I hope that one day you can see that.

81 Hi all, there is no need to create a chaos over a foolish act by a hypocrite. If only the church will have a woman priest and also a woman as pope. Then they could argue about this. What would you call her then, Mother??? You faith is yours and who are you to tell others on how it should be done. All of us is as tiny as a piece of dirt in the almighty eyes. Islam is like a diamond, how you try to dirty it, it will still not lost it shine and value.If only these fools could understand. These cheap publicity stunts will only happens in US. If only those males praying as makmum behind Amina knew about Islam, then there are going to be no issues here. Islam did not prohibit a woman from leading a prayer, but it can only be done in their own home and the makmums must only consists of women. Why must we question something that already happened. We must think how to be a better individual spiritually and mentally. As for Amina, only Allah know her true intentions. Allah is most merciful and most forgiving.Lets pray,she'll be guided to the right path. InsyaAllah. "LAA ILA HA ILLA ANTA SUBHANAKA INNI KUNTU MINAZ DZALIMIIN". (Surah Anbiyak)

82 even if it doesnt say in Quran, we, as true muslims, KNOW that Quran is NOT U.S. Constitution than can be loosely interpreted in different ways. Islam was complete when Quran was complete, and we are forbidden by our Prophet to interpret it in any other way.like Alex said "where it says in Quran". just in case if she is blind or too mentally crippled to understand (which she is), i will repeat it. there are ALOTS of things not said in Quran, such as "dont use opium" or " hindus cannot lead a muslim prayer". but doesnt mean that just cuz it doesnt say in Quran, we are free to do it, even if it is socially, and morally wrong. whereas female prayer leader is forbidden by our Prophet : " there is no welfare in female prayer leadership" - a muslim priest told me. we havent been brainwashed, may be u have. u call "pope" a joke, which clearly indicates that you Do NOT have any understanding of any religion whatsoever, and since u have nothing to do with ur life, u just search for forums like this post ur dumb idle thoughts that nobody agrees with. "i like islamic faith and feel that it has a purpose"? u have a library in ur neighbourhood? if u do, may be u need to go there NOW, get some books on islam WRITTEN BY a muslim, or there is a very good book for people like you called " complete idiot's guide to get something to do when u have lost ur mind"

83 even if it doesnt say in Quran, we, as true muslims, KNOW that Quran is NOT U.S. Constitution than can be loosely interpreted in different ways. Islam was complete when Quran was complete, and we are forbidden by our Prophet to interpret it in any other way.like Alex said "where it says in Quran". just in case if she is blind or too mentally crippled to understand (which she is), i will repeat it. there are ALOTS of things not said in Quran, such as "dont use opium" or " hindus cannot lead a muslim prayer". but doesnt mean that just cuz it doesnt say in Quran, we are free to do it, even if it is socially, and morally wrong. whereas female prayer leader is forbidden by our Prophet : " there is no welfare in female prayer leadership" - a muslim priest told me. we havent been brainwashed, may be u have. u call "pope" a joke, which clearly indicates that you Do NOT have any understanding of any religion whatsoever, and since u have nothing to do with ur life, u just search for forums like this post ur dumb idle thoughts that nobody agrees with. "i like islamic faith and feel that it has a purpose"?then get this straight. we have faith in islam and WE KNOW that it has a purpose. keep ur damn feelings to urself, cuz nobody will agree upon em. u have a library in ur neighbourhood? if u do, may be u need to go there NOW, get some books on islam WRITTEN BY a muslim, or there is a very good book for people like you called " complete idiot's guide to get something to do when u have lost ur mind" - u feel there is a purpose. well go FIND that purpose, than come back to back ur garbage up!

84 even if it doesnt say in Quran, we, as true muslims, KNOW that Quran is NOT U.S. Constitution than can be loosely interpreted in different ways. Islam was complete when Quran was complete, and we are forbidden by our Prophet to interpret it in any other way.like Alex said "where it says in Quran". just in case if she is blind or too mentally crippled to understand (which she is), i will repeat it. there are ALOTS of things not said in Quran, such as "dont use opium" or " hindus cannot lead a muslim prayer". but doesnt mean that just cuz it doesnt say in Quran, we are free to do it, even if it is socially, and morally wrong. whereas female prayer leader is forbidden by our Prophet : " there is no welfare in female prayer leadership" - a muslim priest told me. we havent been brainwashed, may be u have. u call "pope" a joke, which clearly indicates that you Do NOT have any understanding of any religion whatsoever, and since u have nothing to do with ur life, u just search for forums like this post ur dumb idle thoughts that nobody agrees with. "i like islamic faith and feel that it has a purpose"?then get this straight. we have faith in islam and WE KNOW that it has a purpose. keep ur damn feelings to urself, cuz nobody will agree upon em. u have a library in ur neighbourhood? if u do, may be u need to go there NOW, get some books on islam WRITTEN BY a muslim, or there is a very good book for people like you called " complete idiot's guide to get something to do when u have lost ur mind" - u feel there is a purpose. well go FIND that purpose, then come back to back ur garbage up!

85 sorry about three of the same posts. there was a problem with my browser.

86 KKK, where does the prophet forbid women from leading mixed prayer? I see the point in your opium comments, but why would you compare a woman leading prayer to a drug that causes brain damage. Is this to say that women cause brain damage if they lead prayer. Your other point about HIndus or Christians leading a Muslim prayer service seems a bit irregular. Why would anyone lead a faith that they didn't hold as their own? I have a very clear understanding of my faith. Me calling the Pope a joke is because no where in the bible does it promote the installation of the Pope as a religious leader. FOr what it's worth, I am not Catholic and haven't been since I was 17 when I denounced my Catholicism because I found it to be wrong. I see what you are trying to argue, you just aren't doing it well because you, like Samara, let your dogmatic traditions block your religious sensibilities.

87 ok obviously Alex has never taken SATs. i never compared drugs with female prayer leader. i m giving u an EXAMPLE of wat is not in the holy book doesnt mean we are free to do it. and u r talking about dogmatic traditions without know what that means, because none of us here (besides u and jaque) thinks that our belief in islam is an established opinion by the society. religion creates society. society doesnt create it. again u r talking about something not written in a holy book such as bible. i dont like to repeat myself about that because u fail to understand things that make sense to normal people. i m not xtian, but even i wont call pope as a joke. brush up ur religious knowledge and then come back.

88 I'm saying that your EXAMPLE is not a GOOD EXAMPLE. I'm saying it is a BAD EXAMPLE. Do you understand that? I will call the Pope a joke, because I'm not afraid to do it. I also truly believe that the position of Pope is a joke.I have a rather extensive knowledge of my religion. You just don't get it and I don't see you getting it in the near future but I don't blame it on you, I blame it on brainwashing, whihc is not dissimilar to the brainwashing I've had to overcome as a Christian. I don't hold any ill will towards you, but I feel that conceptually you can't handle the philosophy behind my debate. And because of that I'm not going to expend any more energy here.

89 its good to hear that u arent gonna come back. finally the evil gives up! and as far as the example is concerned, people will agree with me that its a good example. u kno wat a bad example is? "Light bulb changes religion" hahaha. brainwashing, philosophy; people who cant back their statements up, use those words. i would like to use an example again, but u wont get it. and u hav extensive knowledge abt ur religion, good for u. but u dont know jack about islam so its good to see u backing off. and if u come back, that will be a case of revenge, and u wont make sense as usual, so peace out, and stick only to christianity.

90 Alex, Even though you cannot get extra credit for your demonstration of huMAN dignity in attempting to listen to, ask questions from, and pose possibilities to those, whether woMAN or man whose inability to think straight lends them ample time to display how little regard they hold for both particular human beings or Allah's collective creation of all humans in dignity: I wanted to say, at least the teacher learned something from the student! and the credit will descend upon you from the Source of the Only one Who can truly judge, which too many seem to forget and instead make themselves God and judge at random.. There is NO WHERE in the Qur'an where Allahu subhanahu wa ta'ala ever prohibited a woman from leading mixed prayer, but the prophet DID prohibit any Muslim from "making haram ANYTHING illa maa hramahu Allah" dr. a

91 hmm.. so according to the person who posted as "amina wadud", Alex will be blessed by allah? what a joke. a true muslim, instead, would invite Alex to become a muslim. hey Alex, next time if u wanna hide your ID, be sure u use some name other than Amina Wadud, and dont be scared to put ur email address. we arent gonna hurt u. i think u r a 5 year old who HAS to EMPHASISE that IT DOES NOT SAY this in Quran, it DOESNT say that in Quran. u have nothing else to say cuz u know nothing else. hahaha. wat a moron.

92 I AM AN AMERICAN. BORN CATHOLIC.. BAPTISED CHRISTIAN. REVERT TO ISLAM 1999 RAMADAN. I FIND AMINA WADUD A SPY.. AND FAKE... AND SHALLOW.. AND BLASPHEMOUS... I AM NOT A NIGGER. I AM A MIDDLECLASS AMERICAN WHITE.. AND I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH ISLAM RELIGION AS IT IS. I FEEL FINE PRAYING BEHIND MEN.. SAFE.. NOT WORRIED OF MY LOOKS.. TO PRAY AND CONCENTRATE TO ALLAH ALONE.. I NEVER FELT SO CLOSE TO GOD as in islamic way to pray. I have no problem knowing accepting i am NOT EQUAL to man.. and dont want to be.. there are many psychological studies saying men and woman are DIFFERENT.. men from mars women from venus etc.. and men have different control of sexuality .. and men stronger and leaders women are the gatherers.. men are the hunters.. its natural.. women in liberal usa should shut up and try what is natural.. if u so strong woman then u can put up with letting the men lead u.. see how it feels instead of fighting nature.. its not as bad as u think. Women naturally love to be taken care of by men to feel the mens strength and protection.. read all the romance novels.. the man carrying the woman againsst her will.. and she end up falling in deep love with him and his domineering.. I AM IN THE MIDDLE EAST NOW.. ILL TELL U.. I NEVER FELT MORE LIKE A WOMAN THAN HERE.. THE WAY THE ISLAMIC ARAB MEN TREAT THE WOMAN IS SO AMAZINGLY WONDERFUL.. IT MAKE U FEEL LIKE A REAL WOMAN U NEVER FELT THIS WAY.. THEY OFFER U THEIR SEATS.. THEY GUIDE U TO HELP MAKE LIFE STRUGGLES EASIER.. THEY OFFER TO CARRY THINGS TO HELP U.. THEY KIND AND GENEROUS TO WOMEN HERE.. I FEEL LIKE CRYING.. my own country.. my own nationality the men so many times push in a bank to cut in front of me stepping on my toes.. and slam elevator doors in my face just to be firest to get into the elevator.. rude..uncaring.. because usa women want to demand to be Equal.. SO WHY hold door for women they are equal they can compete with strong men to open heavy doors.. they dont need help.. or want it.. well what if u are natural and not so afraid to trust nature and men.. what if u want or need a man to take care of your womenness.. in usa u are stuck struggling in rat race to survive , dieing inside as it is unnatural and u r not physically equal for that.. Im a jealous person.. never thought id accept polygamy.. but i saw it from here where it is acceptable.. i see some instances the need for it.. i see the good of it in some places.. i see the hope in it for the mass of unmarried woman and needy old ones.. i see the peace and caring and generousity it can be if done rightly. I find USA is behind in these understandings. so to follow usa liberal equality movements are KAFR and against nature of how God created us womean... ACCEPT YOUR WOMENHOOD.. LOVE IT.. ENJOY IT.. BE A WOMAN.. AND PROUD .. a woman who loves enough to accept being a 2nd wife, who obeys for her man and protector if islamically prudent lead her in prayer and guide her to iman and who accepts her role and justice of her role.. who dies closer to her God .. dies happy content and safe. a woman who fights the natural leadership of her man.. tries to lead the men..changes the religion for her own gains.. gets farther from God and pulls man farther from God and will die lonily and perhaps sorry but it will be too late.. she will be punnished in the next life for her attrocities. someone should stop this evil womans intentions.. inshaallah..

93 Jihad, you really have an insight of Islam even though you converted only 6 years ago. I think all of us should have a mentality like you, and i completely agree with what you wrote. Some people who were born Muslims should learn from you.

94 sorry, but there is no argument, if muhammed did not allow it then the topic is closed. that's is, no point of shouting. trust allah's messenger in that concerns religion.

95 OI you stupid woman!! wot the hell do u think you r doing?!!?! R u mentally insane? And whats wit your sidekick "singin" the adhan!? This my dear brothers and sisters is a clear sign that the day of judgement is edging ever closer. This woman is purely insane. men and women who prayed with her are surely going to end up rotting with her in hell!!

96 OI you stupid woman!! wot the hell do u think you r doing?!!?! R u mentally insane? And whats wit your sidekick "singin" the adhan!? This my dear brothers and sisters is a clear sign that the day of judgement is edging ever closer. This woman is purely insane. men and women who prayed with her are surely going to end up rotting with her in hell!!

97 Assalam alykum, As muslims whose teachings are we to follow, the Prophet (PBUH) or a Doctor by the name "Amina Wadud"???? The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said: "Men will be liars towards the end of the world; and will relate such stories as neither you nor your fathers ever heard. Then avoid them, that they may not lead you astray and throw you into contention and strife." This was warned by the Prophet (PBUH) and look, what do you know, its happening alright!.

98 And for the person named "Amina Wadud" who the hell gave you authority to "give credit" , with your speech to Alex about listenin and asking effective questions? You tellin a kuffr they will get credit from Allah! are you sure you read the Shahadah right when you converted?

99 aite guys, we did a great job forcing Alex to go away and hide, and that chicken face will never come here again. if she does, we will massacre her posts.

100 KKK, I'm a man, or a male at least, and a married one at that. And though I cannot say for sure, that might have actually been Dr. Wadud... If it wasn't, they certainly had her linguistic patterns down as far as sentance structure goes. Which leaves me slightly embarrassed because I didn't expect her to read this. I'm not hiding, know that I'm right here, I'm just not going to debate this with you any longer because there is too much repetition of answer and evasion of my points. I do want everyone of you to know that regardless of our differences in thought processes I do respect all of your for your devotion to your faith. But I urge you not to disregard the love and grace that God has for all of us and in our purposed quests to be more like God we should not push these elements from our own repetoir. Also, KKK, I'll have you know, sir, that ME mother was a chicken. That's why my face looks the way it does.

101 Jihad, I live in the middle east and I can safely say the image your transferring is not ultimately accurate. You get things similar to what happened in the US. ...

102 "Also, KKK, I'll have you know, sir, that ME mother was a chicken. That's why my face looks the way it does."- thats the dumbest thing i have ever read in my life. HAHAHAHA if u dont wanna be a part of this debate, then why did u come back? you know that you have nothing new to say, cuz you have nothing sensible to say. get lost forever before someone else humiliates you again. we dont hate you. our religion doesnt teach us to hate. its just that u cant prove your point and ur repition was getting really aggravating. i suggest you read some books on islam, and then may be we can have a better debate, or no debate at all. i wont talk about ur religion without know wat i need to know. u shld do the same. and that was not Amina Wadud. She is being feminist somewhere else and she wouldnt read this cuz there is something called "guilt conscience:

103 Assalaamu'alaikum, I came to this website by chance cos I was inteested to know more about Amina Wadud. I read all the comments by the Muslims and non Muslims with great interest. I admire the Muslims who wrote with wisdom and patience, I dislike the Muslim who wrote with bad,uncoathe language (which is not becoming of a Muslim) and I symphatise with the non Muslim who are trying to defend Amina Wadud BUT unfortunately do not have enough Islamic knowldege of true Islam. I live in Malaysia. When I heard of the news of a woman leading the friday prayers, I became very curious to find out who and what she is. I found out that Amina Wadud used to be a lecturer at the International Islamic University of Malaysia. She apparently was not very welcomed there cos of her feminist ideas and soon she was shooed away from there. Before leaving Malaysia, she wrote a long letter to the local newspaper of her dispute/discontentment. She was also one of the pioneer/founder of the Sisters in Islam in Malaysia.Unfortunately, the sisters in islam here is a bad representation of the Muslimah. They sometimes,represent and have a voice to talk to the media about muslim women which sometimes gives the wrong interpretation of islam to the non muslim in Malaysia. MaY I REMIND sR Amina Wadud that she will also be responsible in the hereafter for what these people are spreading.It makes us sick to read in the newspapers of how they intepret the Quran and they are anti Hadith/Sunnah. I feel sorry for the sisters in Islam cos they dont have the indepth knowledge of true Islam and they are leading the less knowledgeable astray. And that is what Amina Wadud is doing intentionally or UNintentionally. Walla hu 'alam.

104 I'm sticking around on the off chance that someone will respond to some of my points with counterpoints that are applicable. Thus far no one has proven that what Dr. Wadud did can't be done... they have just proven that it hasn't been traditionally done. So like I said, until I get a response that is wholely non-dogmatic and tadition based. I would just be repeating myself unneccessarily. I can't continue to discuss until someone provides me with a valid response. Also I wasn't worried whether or not you hate me... I am glad however to know that you love me. I sincerely find that comforting if you sincerely meant it. However, I don't believe that hate is the opposite of love. Fear is. I also don't think you are afraid of me. I do think you are afraid of mine and Dr. Wadud's ideas. BUT that is okay, it is healthy to question ideas. It isn't healthy to not give them mind. Especially when their lack of credibility cannot be proven Qu'rannically. It's true I don't know much about Islam. I said that in my first post. But for what I have posed, my knowledge of Islam needn't be extensive. The concepts are simply, but the answers require solidity and Qu'rannical fact. I have seen nothing but overzealous "jibber jabber." Dare I say, it is not I that need to know more about Islam. But perhaps it is you. I have never been given the opportunity to get lost in the methods of Islam to the point that I forget the inherant meaning of what it was to seek Islam. I've done it with Christianity though, and I bet the process for getting lost isn't all that different despite our differences in religious practices. noorhidayah I feel sorry for the sisters in Islam cos they dont have the indepth knowledge of true Islam and they are leading the less knowledgeable astray. And that is what Amina Wadud is doing intentionally or UNintentionally. Walla hu 'alam. That is by far one of the most offensive, sexist, and infuriating things I have ever read. If women and men are equal in your religion, you wouldn't say that. That is preposterous.

105 Assalamua'laikum I'm sorry and sad to hear that Dr. Amina Wadud had done a thing which is clearly against the Islamic teaching. She, as a Muslim scholar and an intellectual who has read extensively the Quran and even goes to the extent of STUDYING it, should know better - that a Muslim woman CANNOT lead a mixed-gender Friday prayer. If GENDER INEQUALITY in the Muslim world is her real agenda, then she should focus on other aspects which "so-called" put Muslim women at a disadvantage to the Muslim men - this I doubt, because as far as I know (and I'm not a Muslim scholar, and my knowledge of Islam is not as extensive as Dr. Wadud's), ISLAM DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE WOMEN. I hope that she would instead utilize her knowledge for the benefit of the Muslims instead of committing an act that would certainly tear the unity of the Muslims apart. I hope that Dr.Wadud would realize what she had done is wrong and apologize to all Muslims. May Allah fogive her...And to others who are furious with what she had done, should try to forgive her as well. There's no need for death threats and the use of violence to threaten Dr. Wadud. After all, ISLAM IS THE RELIGION OF PEACE and ALL MUSLIMS ARE BROTHERS, thus we should learn to forgive each other. Assalamua'laikum

106 "Its true I dont know much about Islam"-ALex Do i need so say anything anymore? I think Not.

107 "Its true I dont know much about Islam"-ALex Do i need 2 say anything anymore? I think Not.

108 Hawa Muhamad ...a Muslim woman CANNOT lead a mixed-gender Friday prayer Perhaps YOU (since KKK obviously can't, or won't, or is scared too because he doesn't have a good reason) can tell me why? And please don't say because that is how it always has been done. I'm looking for a reason that can be backed by the Qu'ran.

109 Bismillah, Salaam Alaikum, Guys we are not going anywhere with all these arguments. I agree with our brother here Aamer who said above that we should all look at ourselves because amina wadud would not have taken such step if we were good ourselves. Believe me how many of us are working day and night for this duniya and how many of us are spending day and night gaining knowledge for Allah so we can give dawah to people and save them from going to hell? Really think over it and look at yourself. Allah Swt is watching all of us and He knows who is a hypocrite and who is a believer, this include myself too. Amina wadud is nothing. How many followers would she have is not the matter to us. What really matters to us is what are we doing to spread the truth. Amina wadud, if she dies now, she'll know the truth or she knows the truth but denies it. Allah swt will take care of her and we need not to worry. As a matter of fact a believers dua is very powerful becasue it is from the heart. Any mu'min can pray to Allah that if she is a mischief creator than take her away or else guide her to the truth. But we like to pinpoint to others as if it is thier mistake. There is no where in Qur'an and hadith where we should blame others. We have to look to ourselves. Allah swt will not ask us who and what he will ask us what have "we" done? And you'll be a fool to blame anyone except yourself. Even on the day of judgement shatan will say to us that don't blame him because he just whispered to us. He did not make us commit any sin. So the believers, please we have to struggle ourselves to Show Allah what we did to spread the truth. By talking will not take you anywhere because I have read so many of your that I feel ashamed reading more. Our language is disgusting. Tell me is that the way our prophet pbuh talked or is that the way the companions talked? The answer is no. For example, our brother Ahmad, come on look at your name and look at what you have written above for it is recorded here and is recorded in your books. Do you know who else had this name? How much are you trying to live him as a role model? your language is a clear proof brother that you are too ignorant of his sunnah. Be ready to face Allah swt with it and be ready to answer Him. I am not trying to insult you but show you the reality. And our sister sumara, I mean what kind of word is " But Off?" where is the manner of this deen? Are you really a disgrace to this deen or you are elevating it? How are you elevating it? By talk wallahi you are a great criminal if you are doing that. For Alex, I have read what you have written and what I conclude is that you should not blame anyone for being brainwashed for I believe it is you who has been brainwashed. Read carefully what I am going to write because after that you are on your own to seek the truth and if you still cannot see the truth than it is your heart that has been blinded. Islam is a complete religion and was completed at the time of the Prophet PBUH. Never ever it happened at his time where women lead a prayer mixed gender. Even if it would have taken place, Our Beloved Prophet would have stopped it because the mix gender is not allowed in this Deen for it is pure. It protects it's follower in every possible sense becasue if you are praying next to women, than your concentration would mostly be on the woman next to you than the Creator. Where is sincerity to the Creator than? Will you control yourself or is it better to just not be in such environment? What if the woman is wearing perfume and you feel attracted towards her? What if the woman is not properly covered and you want to look at her? You will be a liar if you say that you will control yourself because you are a man and shatan is after you too and will whisper to you until you have committed zina or you ask the Creator to protect you and show you what is the truth. Praying seperate does not mean that one is superior than the other or does not mean that one is not equal to the other. It is as if your wife telling you honey why don't you get pregnent this time? Why don't you get pregnent and deliever than any other women who comes to your life. And why don't you feed your child rather than your wife? You are a fool if you do not understand this. where is equality? Does that make sense to you or you have been so blinded by the idealogy of amina wadud tha t you cannot figure the truth. Come on and be a Man and not just male. women and men are equal but thier responsibiltiy are different only if you understand. different responsibilites does no where mean one is superior than the other. Otherwise, even if you try to get pregnent, I promise you you will never because the nature of One Creator does not changes. The creator is Wise and knows best what jobs fits for what kind. You and I do not determine it because we are limited in every aspect. Therefore, Islam is not a JOKE, it is a way of life and teaches people how to live under the submission of One Creator. Our Prophet pbuh never taught us that because there is a wisdom. And if you choose to have your own way of Islam, than prepare yourself to go to hell for every innovation leads to hellfire. Islam is just not A B C and you know it all. You have to study it under a sheikh who has ijazza to teach it. I don't think amina wadud has the Ijazza to teach. Now, in order for you and all of us to be guided, we go to the Creator with sincere heart. If you are sincere in your seeking the truth than you must surrender yourself to the Creator and He will guide you. This only happend when you ar sincere. And let me give you a bad news, you are starting off a wrong teacher. You cannot just go and listen to anyone becaue you feel good or anything. The only one can guide is the Creator and all you need to do is pray when you are alone. My final saying is that the truth is There is no god but Allah and Muhammad pbuh is His messenger. The right path is the Path of the Prophet pbuh and anything not according to Qur'an or the sunnah is bidah and every innovation is leading to HELL. insha-allah whatever I said against the deen, it is from my shortcomings and may Allah swt forgives me and whatever I said from this deen true is the truth and every innovation leads to hellfire. like I said ignorance is not bliss!!!

110 so U ALex, tell me the reason Why it should be done the Amina Wadud way, a solid reason backed up by Quran and sayings of prophet Mohammed SAW. Prayer in Islam “features getting up, sitting down and kneeling ... It is not befitting for a woman to make these movements in the presence of men when worshipping requires a peaceful mind and concentration on communicating with God,” Qaradawi said. Quran tells women to cover themselves with Hijab. Cover in such a way that a na-mehrum man ( potentially elegible to get married to that woman) cant see her physical features, INCLUDING face. (now if u will ask me Why so, then its a whole different ball game) - But Amina Wadud dont really understand the meaning of Hijab, therefore she felt free to bend and reveal her physique, something not allowed in islam by ALLAH and PROPHET. Alex, you really have to get some books on islam. I m not afraid of answering you, and my reasons are good, and most of them agree with me. so how can u say that i dont have good reasons? may be to u, cuz u r the most arrogant and stupidest person i hav ever debated with. u say u dont wanna debate, then u change ur name, and then u come back, trying to avoid me by asking someone else questions, inconsistency and lack of confidence is evident from ur actions. where as I didnt quit, didnt hide myself or changed my name, and i can take on u 1 -on- 1. thats wat u call consistency. i think the better thing for u to do is to go take care of ur wife. she may listen 2 ur junk and will agree with ur moronic thoughts. r u white trash by any chance? ;-)

111 Thank You soo much IIB. What you have written is by far the most thought out contribution as of late... at least the first part of it. Your message to the other muslims was right on. And I would like to thank you for trying to respond to me. I will try to respond to your points, point by point. Islam is a complete religion and was completed at the time of the Prophet PBUH. Never ever it happened at his time where women lead a prayer mixed gender. Even if it would have taken place, Our Beloved Prophet would have stopped it because the mix gender is not allowed in this Deen for it is pure. I still haven't seen what I'm looking for... which is a scriptural passage that states that women can't lead a mixed gender prayer. Did the prophet say that? If so... I can no longer question this. If not, how can you be so sure he would have stopped it? It protects it's follower in every possible sense becasue if you are praying next to women, than your concentration would mostly be on the woman next to you than the Creator. Where is sincerity to the Creator than? Will you control yourself or is it better to just not be in such environment? I start to see your point with the removing yourself from a certain environment. That is a good point actually and I can see it being valid under certain circumstances. But it also shows something else. A complete and utter lack of self discipline, responsibility and respect for females. For the record, I have prayed many times beside females and not once during prayer, at least to my recollection, was my attention diverted by the female beside me. When I pray to the Lord, I take it seriously, and the Lord has my attention. What you are saying to me is that women can only be seen as sexual objects. This perturbs me a bit for your sake. So to answer your question: NO, my attention would certainly not be MOSTLY on the woman beside me, that's ludicrous. And when it comes to prayer, yes I am responsible enough to control myself... What if the woman is wearing perfume and you feel attracted towards her? What if the woman is not properly covered and you want to look at her? If I feel attracted to a woman I assure you it isn't because of her perfume. I actually respect women and my attraction is based on her ability to think equivocally with myself and all that may entail. What is wrong with looking at people who aren't "properly covered?" I can look at someone and not lust after them. I see them everyday and I don't gawk at them or follow them around. I pass them the same way I pass men. I have a question for you, What if you have a very obvious sexual hang up? Women are not things to be worshipped. Women do not exist solely for the purpose of sex. Try looking at a woman as a human, you'll find it liberating I assure you. You will be a liar if you say that you will control yourself because you are a man and shatan is after you too and will whisper to you until you have committed zina or you ask the Creator to protect you and show you what is the truth. I just said that I would control myself, and according to you that makes me a liar... I fail to see how since I am telling the truth. Also I'm confused, does this shatan fellow only whispers in the ears of men? And if so why would he want me to send the warrior princess to an insane asylum. (You won't get that, it was a joke... and pretty clever too if I might add) In any case I don't know what Zina is. Praying seperate does not mean that one is superior than the other or does not mean that one is not equal to the other. Okay, cool... explain how please It is as if your wife telling you honey why don't you get pregnent this time? Why don't you get pregnent and deliever than any other women who comes to your life. And why don't you feed your child rather than your wife? You are a fool if you do not understand this Call me a fool but... IF ANYONE CAN TELL ME WHAT THIS MEANS I WILL TRANSFER THE ENTIRETY OF MY BANK ACCOUNT TO THEM. The first sentance... It is as if your wife telling you honey why don't you get pregnent this time? ... is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE! Having a woman lead a prayer is not physically impossible. Understand this is not a valid argument. The second sentance... Why don't you get pregnent and deliever than any other women who comes to your life. ...IS NOT EVEN A COHERANT SENTANCE! I don't even know what that means?! Understand this if you are going to make a point, make a point that is applicable to the situation and at least makes sense. And why don't you feed your child rather than your wife? Again... what are you talking about? I fail to see how this relates IN ANY WAY,SHAPE,OR FORM to a female leading a mixed prayer. Who taught you guys how to make comparisons?! I swear this is worse than reading a book of knock-knock jokes with the punchlines all mixed up. THIS IS ONCE AGAIN NOT ONLY A DREADFULL ARGUMENT AND COMPARISON BUT IT IS A DISGRACE TO THE WORLD OF ARGUMENTS AND COMPARISONS. where is equality? That's the million dollar question chief... and we still, unfortunately, haven't gotten any closer to it, THanks a whole lot. Does that make sense to you or you have been so blinded by the idealogy of amina wadud that you cannot figure the truth. I'll be honest with you. I'm not a follower of Amina Wadud. My ideals are my own. Not only have I formulated them over the course of my own life, but Dr.Wadud and I have never even discussed our ideals. At this point I wouldn't even know to say that our ideals are all that similar because I honestly don't know what her "ideals" are. I just know she lead a prayer and that no one can give me a valid reason as to why it was wrong. Come on and be a Man and not just male No thanks, I don't really like beer or football women and men are equal but thier responsibiltiy are different only if you understand. different responsibilites does no where mean one is superior than the other Coincidentally, I agree with you, men and women are different, and YES we do have different responsibilities sometimes, but where does it say that leading a mixed prayer is the job of a man? No one has answered me that yet. WHO DETERMINED THAT PRAYER LEADERSHIP WAS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF A MAN? Otherwise, even if you try to get pregnent, I promise you you will never because the nature of One Creator does not changes Not that again... Here is one thing you are one hundred percent right about, I will not get pregnant. How you found that relevant to the topic at hand I do not know The creator is Wise and knows best what jobs fits for what kind. You and I do not determine it because we are limited in every aspect. Perhaps that is why the creator allowed Dr.Wadud to lead the mixed prayer in New York because the job fit her kind. Not her kind as in "woman", but her kind as in "human." The creator is wise after all and it wasn't we who determined her job that day, God did, because GOd allowed it to happen. Like I said your first paragraph was the most relevant thing I've read in a while. Thank you for giving me substantial to counter argue.

112 KKK HEY BUDDY! Here we go, finally some substance from you, I AM suprised. Here we go... Prayer in Islam “features getting up, sitting down and kneeling ... It is not befitting for a woman to make these movements in the presence of men when worshipping requires a peaceful mind and concentration on communicating with God,” Qaradawi said. Qaradawi?! I thought your prophet was Mohammed?! Tell me who Qaradawi is please? But Amina Wadud dont really understand the meaning of Hijab, therefore she felt free to bend and reveal her physique, something not allowed in islam by ALLAH and PROPHET. Wait, I thought it was Qaradawi who didn't allow it? I m not afraid of answering you, and my reasons are good, and most of them agree with me. so how can u say that i dont have good reasons? Then why has it taken you this long to produce anything of "merit." I'm sure most of them agree with you, I'm positing on a conservative muslim website... that is to be expected may be to u, cuz u r the most arrogant and stupidest person i hav ever debated with you might be right about that, but I'm not so lazy that I don't type out the word "you" u say u dont wanna debate, then u change ur name, and then u come back, trying to avoid me by asking someone else questions, inconsistency and lack of confidence is evident from ur actions. I never said I didn't want to debate, I was simply stopping until I got some counter points which I wasn't getting before. When did I change my name? My name has been Alex since day one. I don't recall conciously avoiding you, but you really don't have that much to say. I might be reading my own posts wrong, but they have been consistent and confident. Yours have been full of fals accusation and a flagrant inability to hold properly debate however. .where as I didnt quit, didnt hide myself or changed my name, and i can take on u 1 -on- 1. thats wat u call consistency. Oh is that what you call consitency? I still haven't changed my ideals, and thus far you've only brought one piece of good information to the table. That's pretty sad since you have posted on here more than anyone. You can take me 1 on 1, I'm taking everyone on by myself. I hate to think you are calling for me to "man-up." It doesn't take much to gang up on someone, but the least you could do is balance your information with your insults i think the better thing for u to do is to go take care of ur wife. she may listen 2 ur junk and will agree with ur moronic thoughts She would, you're right Why, actually, I am, I have no class, absolutely despise etiquette and protocall, I live in a trailer, and my mother was a chicken... a white chicken.

113 this post is for maryam, have you ppl not read the quran or maybe u have and just dont understand it...i dont claim to b the best of a muslim, im no where close to a muslim but what amina wadudz trying to do is noway in any way form was or ever will be justified!!!! and brother ahmed i see that you are angered by her actions but you just degrated yourself and all the men, you did not prove your point so i can be nice and say plz refrain from using that kinda language but ill put it in a way you'd understand U ILLITERATE DUMBFUQ SHUT THE FUCK UP AND LEARN TO CONVERSATE IN A HUMANLY MANNER!!! as far as amina wadud and her theories go, i am no1 to judge but all i can say is that what your doing is rong, and can never have any sorta justification for your actions..may allah (swt) have mercy on you! salaam

114 "...i am no1 to judge but all i can say is that what your doing is rong and can never have any sorta justification for your actions..." -Harris I wanted to thank you for this exceptional piece of comedy. This actually made me laugh.

115 All you people that are threatening Amina Wadud are a bunch of pansies. You say that women are treated equal, in what middle eastern country are women equal? Saudi Arabia? NO!!!... You all just can't bear that a woman is standing up for what she believes in. All of you that condemn her are judging her, which you have no right to do. YOU'RE ALL JUST A BUNCH OF BITCH ASS FAGGOTS THAT ARE WILLING TO THREATEN A WOMEN BUT WOULD COWER IN THE PRESENCE OF A MALE. FUCK YOU ALL...

116 Ram, Please don't do that man. Though we are quiping one another back and forth, this isn't the place for that kind of assault. Some of us are actually trying to discuss this and that kind of reaction can do no good for those trying to present ourselves logically.

117 salam alaikum, am very sorry,my english is bad!!..but, it's very sad..n couldnt keep it to myself, with amina's stupidity!! i am a woman n very proud to be a muslimah n love the quran so much because it's so very true!!! AMiNA ...u r not a muslim!!.. u dont know islam... amina...shame on you..do u think with a title of "professor or dr" makes u feel that u know everything?!!!!...amina, pls stop wht u r doing!!!..dr or prof or where u hv studied cairo or egypt n etc doesnt make u to know islam!!!...the title is nothing, u just earned it with a degree!!... PLEASE ALL MUSLIM WAKE UP!!...dont make amina blinded u with dunia!!...this is fitnah of akhir'zaman...especially woman!! amina is just a liar!!..she's not a muslim...she cant be one!!!... SHAME ON U!!!..if amina's living in khulafa'rashiydin era' she'll be known as murtad cos she don believe in quran n u 'll be killed!!!....amina shame on u , as a woman i cant see anything that u r doing to make a woman higher!!!...cos we in islam are always equal...men or women!!!..u don practice true islam..!!! well, i just sees amina as a person to blind the muslim especially muslimah...i cant see her as a muslim!!!..very sorry!!..

118 SubhanAllah! how the debate has heated up since I last posted! Muslims, stop shaming urselves! We can't undo what AMina Wadud did, i'm sure she regrets her actions after all this and I'm sure shes learnt a thing or two since she lead the congregation. Inshallah she will have repented, where does that leave u guys, all this Gheebah and hatred, tsk tsk not very muslim-like, plz show the world and the kuffar the real face of Islam. As for the non-Muslims, no matter how hard u try to convince us- ISLAM IS COMPLETE! We do not need anyone telling us where we need more equality or where we can improve- that has already been decided by ALLAH (swt). Thus, anything new introduced is clearly innovation and Islam has no room for innovations. Jazakallah- please make dua for the ppl of Indonesia who have yet again been devastated by an earthquake- arguing over petty matters is the least of their problems! May Allah help them, ameen

119 Inshallah for people like you ill pray that Allah finishes u and all ur followers from the face of this earth..i cant believe im saying this amina Wadud but i respect some kufaars more then u..my friends who r non-muslims have more knowledge bout islaam then u..if i was in your position ill kill myself..please dont claim to be a muslim because u insult all of us..inshalah u and ur little fanclub will burn in hell for lowering islams value and doing watever u please. astaghfirullah...u have no fuckin right to teach Islam "the true word of Allah".your a hypocrite..your a disgrace to black people..u degrade them..All Black people who bring out racist remarks against themselves are only loosers..those true black brothers and sisters have went on with their lives and have been very succesful alhamdullilah..by the will of Allah everyone can have hadiyaah..so please lead the prayers again for u and ur hypocrite friends.. i wouldnt be surprised of negative results.but remember u DONT HAVE OUR BACK..BITCH....Allah will judge u himself....AMEEN

120 Umm A'tika "ISLAM IS COMPLETE!" I was not saying it wasn't. A woman leading prayer is not changing the essence or completeness of Islam. The only way it would be changing Islam would be if the Qu'ran said that WOMEN CAN'T LEAD PRAYER IN MIXED COMPANY. It doesn't specify that, so it isn't "changing" anything. Dr. Wadud prayed as Muhhammed prayed, what difference does her gender make? soldier of Allah, You have a bad case of potty mouth. Do you kiss your father with that mouth? EWW.

121 "Qaradawi?! I thought your prophet was Mohammed?! Tell me who Qaradawi is please?" He is a Islamic Scholar From UAE. if u wanna know him personally, i ll find out his phone number and email him to u. "Wait, I thought it was Qaradawi who didn't allow it? " what made u think that? its just like sayin that Bush gave a speech about freedom of speech, Cheney backing it up saying it was in the constitution, so would u think that Bush has given people freedom of speech? u cant make a point so u quote and question. grow up. "I never said I didn't want to debate, I was simply stopping until I got some counter points which I wasn't getting before."- if u didnt have any good points to begin with, then why did u even bother debating on some serious issue? would u ever go to take a math test, and stop by simply saying " oh i m not getting the solution in my head, so i will resume later". to start a debate, u need to have some sort of knowledge, which u dont anyway. "I'm taking everyone on by myself. " - shows that nobody is with u. majority rules, so get lost. "thus far you've only brought one piece of good information " - do u need a whole damn book? do u have soo much time on ur hands? oh yeah thats right. u called urself trailor trash. u shld have PLENTY of time. and no its not sad that i m posting more than anyone. what sad is that u bounced back, even though u said u arent gonna go with all this. "consistency" "but the least you could do is balance your information with your insults" "Why, actually, I am, I have no class, absolutely despise etiquette and protocall, I live in a trailer, and my mother was a chicken... a white chicken." - so now, who is insulting who? me insulting you or u insulting urself? "soldier of Allah, You have a bad case of potty mouth. Do you kiss your father with that mouth? EWW." -"I have no class, absolutely despise etiquette and protocall" etiquittes, protocol? what have you been smoking? "Though we are quiping one another back and forth" - now Ram IS Potty Mouth. sad to see that people like ram equip u.

122 Alex, u do admit that Islam is complete. has been complete. Prophet Muhammed SAW predicted that there will be a time when people will try to change islam. men will be leaded by women, and that will be a fitnah. a distraction, and be prepared against it. so thats it. why dont u simply understand that Prophet Mohammed has forbidden women to lead a prayer, because they have other responsibilities. equality? women have even higher place for them in our religion. we are supposed to protect them, but if they wanna expose themselves, we have to stop that. and yes,. female leader IS an attempt to change that religion. If something is complete, why would you change it? take an example of a computer software. it is complete, and only the owner can make legal changes to it, buyers cannot. if buyers make any sort of change, it will be against copyright laws, and it may result in the unstability of that software, because the use didnt have complete knowledge of it. the producer of the software may sue the violator for illegal changes. even though the software comes with the End user license agreement, nobody ever reads it, but everybody knows that altering it is a crime. everybody knows in general. u talk about logic, that is a very logical example. and if u r not fimiliar with all that software talk, ask someone who has more computer knowledge than u. draw ur analogies from that example to that of the religion. and if u start sayin " oh thats a bad example, how can u compare software to a religion". then u really need some help.

123 Bush gave a speech about freedom of speech, Cheney backing it up saying it was in the constitution, so would u think that Bush has given people freedom of speech? Your BUsh Cheney thingy was almost a good point... you're getting bett KKK. The only difference is freedom of speech IS written in the constitution. Females not leading prayer is not in the Qu'ran. The prophet never said that Woman couldn't lead mixed prayer. Or at least, if he has, you still haven't sited the passage where he made this declaration despite the fact I have requested it multiple times. So where Bush can't give us something that the constitution gives us... Your Qu'ran doesn't give you a passage that says what Qaradawi said. So you need to decide if you are following the written word of God or Qaradawi. (Thank you for telling me who he is by the way) if u didnt have any good points to begin with, then why did u even bother debating on some serious issue? would u ever go to take a math test, and stop by simply saying " oh i m not getting the solution in my head, so i will resume later". to start a debate, u need to have some sort of knowledge, which u dont anyway. I have done that on math tests multiple times. I'll finish the problems I know and come back to the ones that stump me. So yes, I've done that with math tests. This isn't a math test though. And there really were no problems because there was nothing I could address until someone had commented sensically to what I had said. what sad is that u bounced back, even though u said u arent gonna go with all this. I never said that and I'm very comfortable with myself to the point I can make fun of myself and not feel the slightest bit ashamed. I like to make people smile even at my own expense. ""Though we are quiping one another back and forth" - now Ram IS Potty Mouth. sad to see that people like ram equip u." Nooooo you Silly Billy Willy Frilly Nilly a "quip" is a slightly insulting sarcastic remark. I have been "quipping" you since we have been discussing this. Not equip. Ram IS a Potty Mouth. I wish he hadn't done that. I'm having fun discussing this and he's ruining my fun by coming on here and getting violent. Prophet Muhammed SAW predicted that there will be a time when people will try to change islam. men will be leaded by women, and that will be a fitnah Okay, this is good. This is the kind of information I have wanted. Now, could you please tell me where the prophet said this? I would like to read the passage. why dont u simply understand that Prophet Mohammed has forbidden women to lead a prayer, because they have other responsibilities. I can't until you show me the passage buddy. If the Prophet Mohammed forbade it. Then surely it must be documented that he said that. NO ONE would just... make that up and yes,. female leader IS an attempt to change that religion. If something is complete, why would you change it? take an example of a computer software. it is complete, and only the owner can make legal changes to it, buyers cannot. if buyers make any sort of change, it will be against copyright laws, and it may result in the unstability of that software, because the use didnt have complete knowledge of it. the producer of the software may sue the violator for illegal changes. even though the software comes with the End user license agreement, nobody ever reads it, but everybody knows that altering it is a crime YESSSSS THIS IS GOOD. Man I'm so excited that you have made a good comparison. Now, let me pick it appart so we can look at the individual components. And again I thank you because this is the kind of knowledge I hoped to get on this board. and yes,. female leader IS an attempt to change that religion. If something is complete, why would you change it? In my experience you can't change something that was never solid in the first place. What I mean to say is that there is no passage that says "This is the duty of men (one of them being prayer) and this is the duty of women (one of them being making you a sandwich)." Because there is no written practice that restricts group prayer lead by a woman, there is no change in the religion. Just because a woman hasn't done it until now does not mean that a woman couldn't have done it all along. If something is complete, why would you change it? take an example of a computer software. it is complete, and only the owner can make legal changes to it, buyers cannot. if buyers make any sort of change, it will be against copyright laws, and it may result in the unstability of that software, because the use didnt have complete knowledge of it. The owner is obviously God. The software Islam. Qu'ran can be the owners manual (would that work?) Perhaps it isn't a change in the software, because the manual would specify exactly how the software should run. Since the manual is in the words of the owner and it doesn't specify how this particular part of the software (prayer) should function in the first place (lead by male or female or either). Then a female lead prayer wouldn't be a change in the software. It would be a legal change in the settings. So since the manual doesn't specify whether you should run the settings under female or run the settings under male... isn't it possible to run the software settings under both. It was preprogrammed into the software from the start. No changes, no copyright infringement. Just changing the resolution, or customizing the print settings. I believe that you are strong in your faith, and a lot smarter than I originally gave you credit. Answer me honestly. Do you really fear that Female lead prayer will cause instability in the software? Also I really liked you "end user license agreement comment. It's funny because it's true. I really felt like I broke some ground on that one. I think we are starting to communicate like humans now. I like it. Keep it coming, I've got more to learn.

124 Who paid you to do this? And how much did they pay you? I am willing to pay you twice as much, if you abstain from any such public appearance, or any kind of insult of Islam or to the followers of Islam. Amna Maryam.

125 I THINK ALEX HAS WAY TOO MUCH TIME ON HIS/HER ( BECAUSE THE NAME AND THE ACTIONS INDICATE HE/SHE IS SOME KIND OF FEMINIST/HOMO. YOU ARE SERIOUSLY GETTING PAID. I THINK KKK DESTROYED YOU MAN.HE MADE EXCELLENT POINTS AND YOU, AS USUALL, BABBLED.YOU JUST QUESTION THE QUESTIONS. I ASK YOU, GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE WHERE IT SAYS THAT A LADY CAN LEAD A PRAYER. PEOPLE LIKE KKK AND UMM ATIKA CAN SUPPORT THEIR POINTS, WHEREAS YOU JUST SIT WITH A DICTIONARY AND COPY WORDS LIKE QUIP AND NILLY WILLY. WHY DON'T YOU GIVE IT UP DUMB ASS?

126 Note that most of the people encouraging Wudud, are mostly Muslims. Also how are women becoming equal to men, by praying without the Hijaab. During Wudud's disturbing congregation not was there no gender segregation, but also, many women did'nt even cover their heads. Wudud might be trying to modernize islam. But her followers must remember that there is a difference between modernism, and westernism. Amna Maryam comments to susan_khan2005@hotmail.com

127 Alex are you an atheist?

128 No. I am gay.

129 Deep X, That is because you are a fundamentalist muslim and you are reading my posts through the eyes of a fundamentalist. You can't give me a passage that says a man can lead a prayer can you. Nope. They just do. I ask questions because I want answers and who would know the answers better than you guys. KKK has not supported a point yet. He has given interesting (and sometimes useless) examples and a quote from someone who was not the prophet, but that does not equate support that is his opinion and the opinion of that guy who was not the prophet. The only way you can support your belief that it is wrong for a woman to lead prayer is with Islamic proof. And since God and the Prophet never said this. There is no proof. Is willy nilly even in the dictionary? And if I had a dictionary I would copy words like verisimilitude and juxtapostion... not quip and willy nilly. Maryam I am not an atheist at all. I am a Gnostic Christian... and apparently I'm gay now too, which is news to me. What are you all so afraid of, there is no reason to get aggressive.

130 Alex, You will not understand it because you are not a Mulsim. You will not understand it because you do not know the Last Prophet Pbuh and his teachings. If you knew him and studied his life and the people around him only than you will know the truth. I am not a scholar but a student myself and therefore the answers I will be posting here are not my own but someone knowledgable. Someone who knows this religion. But insha-allah I will add little to it to make you understand it better if it is in my ability. It is very clear for us Muslims to either follow the example of our Prophet pbuh or follow what we desire. But I know obeying the Prophet will please my Creator and disobeying him will make my Creator angry. Islam commands chastity and virtue and it forbids adultery and fornication. It is because of this, we find Islam has commanded both the male and female believers to lower their gaze in the same fashion and it has forbidden seclusion that leads to temptation. Islam has commanded men to cover themselves between their navels and their knees and women to cover themselves entirely save the face and hands. Allah exalted is He says, (Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do.) (An-Nur 24:30). The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said, “AsmaÂ’, if a woman reaches the age of puberty, it is not fitting for her to be seen except for this and this”, and he pointed to his face and hands (Reported by Abu Dawud). One of the Islamic rulings with this intention behind it, is that Allah has commanded women to stand behind the rows of men in Prayer. This was done in order to honor women because the Prayer of the Muslims includes prostration. Thus the command is like the Arabic saying, “He only held you back so he could put you forward.” Putting the Prayer lines for women behind the Prayer lines for men is not a form of degradation; rather it is a means of raising their status and upholding high manners and virtue. It is also a means of mutual cooperation for the believing men and women to follow the command of lowering their gaze. It is for this reason that we see the Muslims in the East and the West, during the times of the righteous companions and their successors, have unanimously agreed on the practice that women are not assigned to call the Adhan or be the imam of Friday or mixed-sex congregational Prayers. As for men and women praying in one row mixed together; this is not permissible in any situation. As for a woman calling the Adhan, giving the Friday sermon, and leading the Friday Prayer, we do not know of a single difference of opinion between the Muslims—scholars and laymen alike—concerning its impermissibility; the fact is that should such a Prayer and Adhan be performed, they would be incorrect. As for a woman being the imam of men in an unscheduled Prayer, the overwhelming majority of scholars have said that it is forbidden and the Prayer is invalid. However, At-Tabari, Abu Thawr, and Al-Muzani from the Shafi`ie school and Ibn `Arabi from the Dhahiri school held the opinion that it is permissible for a woman to lead men in Prayer and that their Prayer is valid. However, some scholars have her stand behind the men—even if she were to lead them—taking into consideration the principles mentioned above. The evidence these scholars used is the hadith from Abu Dawud and Ad-Darqutni which states that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), allowed Umm Waraqah to lead her household in Prayer. The majority of scholars have understood this hadith as referring to supererogatory Prayers or to leading the women of her household or as being specific to Umm Waraqah. In spite of this, not a single Muslim from the East or West has followed this anomalous opinion. What we and the entire world see happening today is the mixing between two issues: the issue of leading a Prayer and the issue of delivering the Friday sermon. The latter was never permitted by anyone. These confused people who adhere to schools of dissent are divided into various movements. Some deny the Sunnah and consensus, some tamper with the significations of words in the Arabic language, and others call for the permissibility of homosexuality, fornication, alcohol, abortion, and changing the prescribed portions of inheritance. These movements appear in almost every age, then they disappear and the Muslims follow the path Allah has made incumbent upon them, bearing the standard of felicity to all the worlds. (Then as for the foam, it passeth away as scum upon the banks, while, as for that which is of use to mankind, it remaineth in the earth) (Ar-Ra`d 13:17) Here is what other scholar said: Free mixing between men and women is haraam, because it leads to many negative consequences and haraam things.The meeting together, mixing, and intermingling of men and women in one place, the crowding of them together, and the revealing and exposure of women to men are prohibited by the Law of Islam (Shari'ah). These acts are prohibited because they are among the causes for fitnah (temptation or trial which implies evil consequences), the arousing of desires, and the committing of indecency and wrongdoing. Among the many proofs of prohibition of the meeting and mixing of men and women in the QurÂ’aan and Sunnah are: Verse No. 53 of Surat al-Ahzab, or the Confederates (Interpretation of the meaning); "...for anything ye want, ask them from before a screen: that makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs..." In explaining this Verse, Ibn Kathir (May Allaah have mercy on him) said: "Meaning, as I forbade you to enter their rooms, I forbid you to look at them at all. If one wants to take something from a woman, one should do so without looking at her. If one wants to ask a woman for something, the same has to be done from behind a screen." The Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) enforced separation of men and women even at AllaahÂ’s most revered and preferred place, the mosque. This was accomplished via the separation of the womenÂ’s rows from the menÂ’s; men were asked to stay in the mosque after completion of the obligatory prayer so that women will have enough time to leave the mosque; and, a special door was assigned to women. Evidence of the foregoing are: Umm Salamah (May Allah be pleased with her) said that after AllahÂ’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said "as-Salamu ‘Alaykum wa RahmatullahÂ’ twice announcing the end of prayer, women would stand up and leave. He would stay for a while before leaving. Ibn Shihab said that he thought that the staying of the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) was in order for the women to be able to leave before the men who wanted to depart." Narrated by al-Bukhari under No. 793. Abu Dawood under No. 876 narrates the same hadith in Kitab al-Salaat under the title "Insiraaf an-NisaaÂ’ Qabl al-Rijaal min al-Salaah" (Departure of Women before Men after the Prayer). Ibn ‘Umar said that AllahÂ’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said: "We should leave this door (of the mosque) for women." NaafiÂ’ said: "Ibn ‘Umar never again entered through that door until he died." Narrated by Abu Dawood under No. 484 in "Kitab as-Salah" under the Chapter entitled: "at-Tashdid fi Thalik". Abu Hurayrah said that the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) said: ""The best of the menÂ’s rows is the first and the worst is the last, and the best of the womenÂ’s rows is the last and the worst in the first." Narrated by Muslim under No. 664. This is the greatest evidence that the Law of Islam (Shari'ah) forbids meeting and mixing of men and women. The farther the men are from the womenÂ’s rows, the better, and vice versa. If these procedures and precautions were prescribed and adhered to in a mosque, which is a pure place of worship where people are as far away as they ever are from the arousal of desire and temptation, then no doubt the same procedures need to be followed even more rigorously at other places. Abu Usayd al-Ansari narrated that he heard AllahÂ’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) say to the women on his way out of the mosque when he saw men and women mixing together on their way home: ‘Give way (i.e., walk to the sides) as it is not appropriate for you to walk in the middle the road.Â’ Thereafter, women would walk so close to the wall that their dresses would get caught on it. Narrated by Abu Dawood in "Kitab al-Adab min Sunanihi, Chapter: Mashyu an-Nisa MaÂ’ ar-Rijal fi at-Tariq."We know that the intermingling, mixing and crowding together of men and women is part of todayÂ’s unavoidable yet regrettable affliction in most places, such as markets, hospitals, colleges, etc., but: · We will not willfully choose or accept mixing and crowding, particularly in religious classes and council meetings in Islamic Centers. · We take precautions to avoid meeting and mixing of men and women as much as possible while at the same time achieving desired goals and objectives. This result can be achieved by designating separate places assigned for men and women, using different doors for each, utilizing modern means of communication such as microphones, video recorders etc., and expediting efforts to have enough female teachers to teach women, etc. · We show fear of Allaah as much as we can by not looking at members of the opposite sex and by applying self-restraint. There follow some of the results of a study on mixing undertaken by some Muslim social science researchers. When we put the following question: What is the Islamic ruling on mixing as far as you know? The results were as follows: 76% of respondents said “It is not permitted.” 12% said, “It is permitted” – but moral, religious, etc. restrictions applyÂ… 12% said, “I donÂ’t know.” Which would you choose? If you had the choice between working in a mixed workplace and working in another where there was no mixing, which would you choose? The responses to this question were as follows: 76% would choose the workplace where there was no mixing. 9% preferred the mixed workplace. 15% would accept any workplace which suited their specialties, regardless of whether it was mixed or not. Very embarrassing Have any embarrassing situations ever happened to you because of mixing? Among the embarrassing moments mentioned by respondents in this study were the following: I was at work one day, and I went into one department where one of my female colleagues who wears hijaab had taken off her hijaab in front of her female colleagues. My entrance took her by surprise and I was very embarrassed as a result. I had to do an experiment in the lab at university, but I was absent on the day of the experiment. I had to go to the lab on the following day, and I found myself the only male among a group of female students, in addition to a female teacher and a female lab technician. I was very embarrassed and felt very awkward with all those female eyes glaring at me. I was trying to take a feminine towel out of one of the drawers when I was surprised by a male colleague standing behind me, who wanted to take something from his own private drawer. He noticed that I was embarrassed and he left the room quickly to avoid my embarrassment. It so happened that one of the girls at the university bumped into me when turning a corner in a crowded corridor. She was walking quickly, going to one of the lectures. As a result of this collision, she lost her balance, and I caught her in my arms, as if I was embracing her. You can imagine how embarrassed I and this girl felt in front of a group of careless young people. One of my female colleagues fell on the stairs in the university and her clothes fell open in an extremely embarrassing fashion. She landed upside down and could not help herself; the young men standing nearby had no option but to cover her and help her to get up. I work in a company and I went in to give some papers to my boss. When I was going out, my boss called me back. I turned around and saw him with his face turned away. I was waiting for him to ask me for a file or for more papers, and I was surprised by his hesitancy. I turned away to the left side of his office, pretending to be busy with something, and he spoke to me at the same time. I thought that this boss would say anything except what he actually said, which was to point out that my garment was stained with menstrual blood. Can the earth open up and swallow a human being at the moment of making sincere supplication? For I prayed that the earth would open up and swallow me. Victims of mixingÂ… True stories Lost hope Umm Muhammad, a mature woman over the age of 40, tells her story. I lived a life of modest means with my husband. There was never any closeness and harmony, and my husband did not have the kind of strong personality that a woman would hope for, but his good nature made me overlook the fact that I was the one who was responsible for most of the decision making in the family. My husband often used to mention the name of his friend and business partner, and he would talk about him in my presence, and I often used to meet with him in his office which was originally part of our apartment. This went on for many years, until circumstances led to us exchanging visits with this person and his family. These family visits were repeated and because of his close friendship with my husband, we did not notice how the number of visits increased and how many hours a single visit would last. He often used to come on his own to sit with us, me and my husband, for long visits. My husbandÂ’s trust in him knew no bounds, and as days passed I got to know this person very well, and saw how wonderful and decent he was. I began to feel a strong attraction towards this man, and at the same time I began to sense that the feeling was mutual. Things took a strange turn after that, when I realized that this man was the kind of person I had always dreamed about. Why had he come along now, after all these years? The more this manÂ’s status increased in my eyes, the more my husbandÂ’s status diminished. It was as if I had needed to see the beauty of his character in order to discover how ugly my husbandÂ’s character was. The matter between this person and myself did not go beyond these persistent thoughts which were occupying my mind night and day. Neither he nor I ever voiced what we felt in our heartsÂ… until today. Yet despite that my life is over and my husband is little more than a weak man with no self-esteem. I hate him and I do not know how all this hatred towards him started to boil over. I wonder how I put up with him all these years, bearing all these burdens by myself, facing lifeÂ’s problems on my own. Things got so bad that I asked him for a divorce, and he divorced me at my request. After that he became a broken man. Even worse than that is that after my marriage was wrecked and my children and husband were devastated, problems arose in this man's family. His wife, with her feminine intuition, realized what had been going on in his heart of hearts, and his life became hell. She was overwhelmed with jealousy to the extent that one night she left her house at 2 a.m. and came to attack my house, screaming, weeping and hurling accusations. His marriage was also about to collapse. I admit that the lovely gatherings which we used to enjoy gave us the opportunity to get to know one another at a time that was not appropriate at this stage in our lives. His marriage has been wrecked and so has mine. I have lost everything, and now I know that my circumstances and his will not permit us to take any positive step towards coming together. Now I am more miserable than I have ever been, and I am looking for illusionary happiness and lost hopes. Tit-for-tat Umm Ahmad tells us: My husband had a group of married friends, and because of our close friendship with them, we used to get together with them once a week in one of our houses, to enjoy an evening of chat. Deep down in my heart I was never really comfortable with the atmosphere in which we would have dinner, sweets, snacks and drinks of juice accompanied by waves of laughter because of the jokes and chit-chats that often went beyond the bounds of good manners. In the name of friendship, the barriers were lifted and every now and then one would hear suppressed laughter between a woman and the husband of another woman. The jokes were too much, dealing – with no sense of shyness –with sensitive topics such as sex and womenÂ’s private matters. This was usual and was even accepted and regarded as desirable. Although I indulged in these things along with them, my conscience made me feel guilty. Then the day came when it became quite clear just how ugly and filthy this atmosphere was. The telephone rang, and I heard the voice of one of the friends in this group. I said hello to him and apologized that my husband was not home. He replied that he knew that, and that he was calling to speak to me! After he suggested starting a relationship with me, I got very angry and spoke harshly to him and cursed him. All he could do was laugh and say, “DonÂ’t try and show these good manners to me; go and check on your husbandÂ’s good manners and see what he is doing…” I was devastated by what he said, but I pulled myself together and said to myself, this person is only trying to cause the break up of your marriage. But he succeeded in planting the seeds of doubt concerning my husband. Shortly after that, the major disaster struck. I discovered that my husband was cheating on me with another woman. It was the matter of life or death as far as I was concerned. I found my husband out and I confronted him, saying: “You are not the only one who can have a relationship. I have received a similar proposition.” And I told him all about his friend. He was stunned and absolutely shocked. (I said “If you want me to respond in kind to your relationship with that woman, then this is for that, tit-for-tat.” This was a huge slap in the face for him. He knew that I did not intend to do that in reality, but he realized the great disaster that had befallen our lives and the immoral atmosphere in which we were living. I suffered a great deal until my husband finally left that loose woman with whom he was having a relationship, as he admitted to me. Yes, he left her and came back to his family and children, but how can I ever feel the same towards him as I used to? Who will restore respect for him in my heart? This huge wound in my heart is still bleeding out of regret and rage at that filthy atmosphere; it still bears testimony to the fact that what they call innocent get-togethers are in reality anything but innocent. My heart still begs for mercy from the Lord of Glory. Intelligence can also be a temptation (fitnah) ‘Abd al-Fattaah says: I work as the head of department in one of the big companies. For a long time I admired one of my female colleagues, not for her beauty, but for her serious attitude towards her work, her intelligence and her excellent achievements – in addition to the fact that she was a decent and modest person who focused only on her work. This admiration turned into attachment, and I am a married man who fears Allaah and never misses any obligatory prayer. I expressed my feelings to her and she rebuffed me. She is married and has children as well. She sees no reason why I should have any kind of relationship with her, whether it be friendship, as work colleagues or based on admirationÂ… etc. Evil thoughts come to me sometimes, and deep down I wish that her husband would divorce her so that I could get her. I started to put pressure on her at work and put her down in front of my bosses. Perhaps this was a form of revenge on my part, but she accepted it with good manners and did not complain or comment. She works and works; her performance speaks of her quality, and she knows this well. The more she resisted me, the stronger my infatuation grew. I am not a person who is easily tempted by women, because I fear Allaah and I do not overstep the mark with them and go beyond what is required by my work. But this woman attracted me. What is the solution?Â… I do not know. Baby ducks know how to swim N.A.A., a nineteen-year-old girl, tells us: At that time I was a little girl. My innocent eyes watched those evening get-togethers when family friends would meet in the house. What I remember is that I could only see one man, who was my father. I watched him as he moved about the room, how his glances would devour the women present, looking at their thighs and chests, admiring this oneÂ’s eyes, that oneÂ’s hair, the otherÂ’s hips. My poor mother had no choice but to take care of these get-togethers. She was a very simple lady. Among the women present there was one woman who would deliberately try to attract my fatherÂ’s attention, sometimes by coming close to him, and sometimes by making enticing movements. I would watch this with concern, whilst my mother was busy in the kitchen for the sake of her guests. These gatherings stopped suddenly and I tried, young as I was, to understand and make sense of what had happened, but I could not. What I remember was that my mother collapsed completely at that time, and she could not stand to hear my fatherÂ’s name mentioned in the house. I used to hear mysterious words whispered by the adults around me: “BetrayalÂ… bedroomÂ… she saw them with her own eyesÂ… despicable womanÂ… in a very shameful position…” etc. These were the key words which only the adults could understand. I grew up and came to understand, and I bore a grudge against all men. All of them were treacherous. My mother was a broken woman and accused every woman who came to us of being a man-snatcher who wanted to make my father fall into her trap. My father hasnÂ’t changed. He is still practising his favourite hobby of chasing women, but now he does it outside the home. Now I am nineteen years old and I know lots of young men. I feel great pleasure in taking revenge on them, because every one of them is an exact copy of my father. I tempt them and entice them, without letting them get anywhere near me. They follow me in gatherings and in the marketplaces because of my movements and deliberate gestures. Sometimes my phone never stops ringing and I feel proud of what I do to avenge the sex of HawwaÂ’ and my mother. But sometimes I feel so miserable and such a failure that it almost chokes me. My life is shadowed by a huge dark cloud, and its name is my father. Before it is too late S.N.A. tells of her experience: I never imagined that my work circumstances would force me to be in contact with the opposite sex (men), but this in fact is what happenedÂ… In the beginning, I used to cover and screen myself from men by wearing niqaab (face-veil), but some of the sisters advised me that this dress was attracting more attention to my presence, and it would be better for me to take off the niqaab, especially since my eyes were somewhat attractive. So I removed the cover from my face, thinking that this was better. But by continuing to mix with my colleagues, I discovered that I was the odd one out because of my antisocial attitude and my insistence on not joining in the conversation and chatting with others. Everyone was wary of this “lone-wolf” woman (as they saw me), and this is what was stated clearly by one person who affirmed that he would not want to deal with such a snooty and stand-offish character. But I knew that I was the opposite, in fact, and I decided that I would not oppress myself and put myself in a difficult position with my colleagues. So I started to join in their chats and exchanges of anecdotes, and they all discovered that I could speak eloquently and persuasively, and that I could influence others. I could also speak in a manner that was determined yet at the same time was attractive to some of my colleagues. It was not long before I noticed some changes in the expression of my direct supervisor; with some embarrassment, he was enjoying the way I spoke and moved, and he would deliberately bring up topics in the conversation where I would see that hateful look in his eyes. I do not deny the fact that I started to entertain some thoughts about this man. I found it astonishing that a man could fall so easily into the trap of a woman who was religiously committed, so how must it be in the case of women who adorn themselves and invite men to commit immoral actions? In fact, I did not think of him in any way which went beyond the bounds of shareeÂ’ah, but he did occupy a space in my thoughts for quite some time. But soon my self-respect made me reject the idea of being a source of enjoyment for this man in any way, shape or form, even if it was only psychological in nature, and I stopped getting involved in any kind of work that would force me to sit alone with him. In the end, I reached the following conclusions: 1- Attraction between the sexes can occur in any circumstances, no matter how much men and women may deny that. The attraction may start within the bounds of shareeÂ’ah and end up going beyond those bounds. Even if a person protects himself (by marriage), he is not safe from the snares of the Shaytaan. 3- Even though a person may be able to guarantee himself and he works with the opposite sex within reasonable limits, he cannot guarantee the feelings of the other party. Finally, there is nothing good in mixing and it does not bear fruit as they claim. On the contrary, it corrupts sound thinking. What now? We may ask, what comes next, after this discussion on the matter of mixing? ItÂ’s about time for us to recognize that no matter how we try to beautify the issue of mixing and take the matter lightly, its consequences are bound to catch up with us, and the harm it causes will have disastrous results for our families. Sound common sense refuses to accept that mixing is a healthy atmosphere for human relations. This is the sound common sense which made most of the people included in this survey (76%) prefer working in a non-mixed environment. The same percentage (76%) said that mixing is not permitted according to the shareeÂ’ah. What makes us sit up and take notice is not this honourable percentage – which indicates the purity of our Islamic society and the cleanness of its membersÂ’ hearts – but the small number who said that mixing is permitted; they number 12%. This group, with no exceptions, said that mixing is permitted but within the limits set by religion, custom (‘urf), traditions, good manners, conscience, modesty, covering and other worthy values which, in their opinion, keep mixing within proper limits. We ask them: is the mixing which we see nowadays in our universities, market-places, work-places and family and social gatherings, taking place within the limits referred to above? Or are these places filled with transgressions in terms of clothing, speech, interactions and behaviour? We see wanton displays of adornment (tabarruj), not proper covering; we see fitnah (temptations) and dubious relationships, with no good manners and no conscience and no covering. We can conclude that the kind of mixing that is happening nowadays is unacceptable even to those who approve of mixing in a clean atmosphere. ItÂ’s about time for us to recognize that mixing provides a fertile breeding-ground for social poisons to invade and take over our society without anyone ever realizing that it is mixing which is the cause. Mixing is the prime element in this silent fitnah, in the shade of which betrayals erupt, homes are wrecked and hearts are broken. The most important role that the mosque plays is calling people to goodness and warning them against evil. Hence those who are in charge of the mosque must explain to the people that mixing is haraam, and stop them doing it. A special place for women to gather can be set up, whether it is in a particular corner of the mosque or even outside in a tent or some such, and useful programs can be offered to them, which should be supervised by women. Allaah has created man in a world of trials and tests, and He has made Paradise the abode of His friends and beloved ones, who preferred His pleasure over their own and preferred obedience to Him over their physical comfort. And He has made Hell the abode of those among His slaves who disobey Him and preferred their own whims and desires to the pleasure of their Lord. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Such is the Paradise which We shall give as an inheritance to those of Our slaves who have been Al‑Muttaqoon (the pious)” [Maryam 19:63] “But as for him who feared standing before his Lord, and restrained himself from impure evil desires and lusts. Verily, Paradise will be his abode” [al-NaazÂ’iÂ’aat 79:40-41] And He says concerning the people of Hell (interpretation of the meaning): “Then, there has succeeded them a posterity who have given up As‑Salaat (the prayers) [i.e. made their Salaat (prayers) to be lost, either by not offering them or by not offering them perfectly or by not offering them in their proper fixed times] and have followed lusts. So they will be thrown in Hell” [Maryam 19:59] And He says (interpretation of the meaning): “That shall be their recompense, Hell; because they disbelieved and took My Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and My Messengers by way of jest and mockery” [al-Kahf 18:106] “Then for him who transgressed all bounds, (in disbelief, oppression and evil deeds of disobedience to Allaah). And preferred the life of this world (by following his evil desires and lusts), Verily, his abode will be Hell‑fire” [al-NaaziÂ’aat 79:37-39] So the Muslim must strive to worship Allaah and keep away from that which angers Allaah, for Allaah will not cause the reward the one who does good to be lost: “As for those who strive hard in Us (Our Cause), We will surely guide them to Our paths (i.e. AllaahÂ’s religion — Islamic Monotheism). And verily, Allaah is with the Muhsinoon (good-doers)” [al-‘Ankaboot 29:69 – interpretation of the meaning] One of the fitnahs (temptations) with which we are tested is the fitnah of women, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have not left behind me any fitnah (temptation) more harmful to men than women.” There follow some of the methods by which we can avoid this temptation. We ask Allaah to set the affairs of the Muslims straight. Lowering the gaze and avoiding looking at haraam things The gaze can generate bad thoughts in the heart, which then lead to ideas and then to desires, then to will and resolve, and then inevitably to doing haraam things. Think about the meaning of this verse which makes a connection between the first steps towards haraam and the end result. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts). That is purer for them. Verily, Allaah is All‑Aware of what they do” [al-Noor 24:30] Ibn Katheer said: “This is a command from Allaah to His believing slaves, to lower their gaze and avoid looking at that which is forbidden to them so that they only look at that which they are permitted to look at. If it so happens that a personÂ’s gaze accidentally falls upon something haraam, he should turn his gaze away from it quickly. Bad thoughts pose a danger to the heartÂ… If a person dwells on them and does not push them away, they will develop into an idea, then into will and resolve, then this will inevitably lead to haraam actions. Beware of dwelling on passing thoughts; rather what you must do is to ward them off and crowd them out with good thoughts. It is obvious that we are living in a society that is filled with temptation – media of all types, magazines, flirting in the marketplaces, satellite TV, the internet, etcÂ… So you have to flee from all of these in order to keep your religious commitment sound. I hope this is enough for you to understand why a woman cannot lead prayer mix-gender. This is for soldier of Allah, if you really call yourself a soldier of Allah, than why do you curse? We are Muslims and follower of our Prophet pbuh and we should try to set an example for others who did not get the message. There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.

131 1st of all. ignoranceisnotbliss, u are the one! u have done sucha great job that Alex must be searching a whole library right now. and also thanks to deepx. kool screen name by the way. 2nd, Alex appreciated my examples while replying to me, but called my facts useless while replyin 2 deep x. strait hipocracy. 2nd, he claims that Allah and Profit never said that. May be there was lack of enough oxygen to his brain, that made him mentally crippled, because he is denying something he has no clue about whatsoever. u wanted evidences, well ignoranceisnotbliss has done an excellent job to shut ur little mouth up. looks like my job is done here, cuz if u Question the specific quotes she cited and try to deny them, i will become "potty mouth". cuz i really hate ignorant people like u. facts r right infront of u. and if u deny them, then mite as well go kill urself. u call pope a joke, meaning u dont believe in leadership. so why do u give a shit about what gender is our prayer leader. let us deal with this, and u stay away cuz i m not gonna answer u after this. keep reading ignoranceisnotbliss;s post, read ut 1000 times. and i wanna make one thing clear abt my software example. cuztomization and resolution settin is SUB-SETTINGS of a software. in our case, it can be analogous to little things that we do in islam, for example, when we pray, all muslims do it the same. but when we recite quran in it, every muslim recites different sections. i m talking about individual prayer. or different muslims beg to allah for forgiveness in different styles. thats not change cuz it doesnt change religion. same way cuztomizing microsoft word so it could let me type in larger font doesnt change its name from microsoft word to something else. but if i mess with a code that runs the actuall program, the program may become corrupt, and will not function. different codes that make up a software hav different functions. if i use a code that keeps track of last files used, to define color settings, it WILL not work cuz it has a complete different function. do u understand wat i m saying cuz its a little high level material. now ignoranceisnotbliss has provided u with proof. y dont u provide us something that counters it? i want specific quotes from quran and prophet, that allows females to lead prayer. and yes i cited someone who is not prophet. nothing wrong with that. whoever says the right stuff, i can cite him/her. and DONT come back without evidences. make sure u dont make some crap up, cuz we all know QURAN.any source other than quran, prophet wont do it. dont worry, if u r gay, nobody will hold that against u. i dont know why would u insult urself like that.

132 sorry ignoranceisnotbliss, i called u she without knowing . i should say he/she. this is my last post anyway. these people cant just come in and mess with mine, and our religion like that. so i had to go "one-on -one" with Alex. yes thats right. 1-1 but u got the buzzer beater shot in by that post. any debate after ur post will be useless, and it will be wasting time goin against some junkie with no brain. i ll be keep checking though, for some new moron that comes out to make no sense. peace out, fiamanallah!

133 dr. Amina Wa"DOG".... YOU HAVE MADE THE JEWS PROUD AND YOU WON THEM...

134 I will respond to IINB, but I'll have to do it later because there is a lot to read and respond to. KKK I never said your "facts" were useless. As a matter of FACT you didn't give me much FACT at all. I said you gave me some useless examples. But that was earlier on and I stick by what I said because it's true. Your attitude reminds me so much of a young republican that it makes me sick. I hope IINB keeps posting because IINB takes the time and pride in their religion to take this discussion seriously and put forth effort into its explanation. Maybe when you pass the age of 20 you'll get the same drive that IINB has.

135 And KKK if you know the Qu'ran as you say you do... why have you not quoted it once?

136 in the name of ALLAH the beneficient the merciful ... all this commotion is unnecessary .for those of us who have any grounding in islaam ,we know that this daajal amina wadud is a person of desires who has no evidence for her false claims based upon the quran & sunnah and the methodologoy of the sahabas .... weve seen daajaals like her before wolves in sheeps clothing decievers ,like farakan ,dr york ,rashaad khalifah ,kabbani ,ahmad qadiani were living in the last days of times and the faith of the true belivers will be tested by these lesser anti christ (daajaals) so theres no need for uproar our prophet sallalahualahiwasalam predicted these devils would come and our ulama our scholars of this time have evaluated the statements of these heretics and based upon there own statements they leave the fold of islam by denying that which makes you muslim and making what ALLAH has made forbidden permissible ... so its clear theres no argument more dajaals like amina will come and ALLAH has prepared a place called jahanam for these decivers &soothesayers kahins (socerers) i ask ALLAH to destroy dr amina and her likes for raging war against ALLAHS deen and misleading the people and may she eat from the thorn tree in hell zaqoom

137 Hey KKK..... nice initials!!!!!! Ku Klux Klan???? You gave Islam a bad name. Way to go Alex, show these Zarqawi look-alikes what proper Islam means

138 Just a quick post and then I have to run errands, but I promise I will respond to you IINB hopefully tonight, but if not, within the next couple of days I will, I'm busy right now though and that is a lot to respond to. ONce again your post was very informative and you are helping me shape my view of what Islam is. My quick post is: I keep reading that Allah forbids women to lead mixed prayer. I have read that around uhhh let's guesstimate... 50 times. But no one has shown me where Allah forbids this.

139 AFTER THE POST BY IINB, I THINK THERE IS NOTHING LEFT FOR ANYONE TO SAY ANYMORE, SPECIALLY JAQUELINA AND ALEX. MAY BE IF YOU DID UNDERSTAND ISLAM, YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT WORD OF PROPHET MUHAMMED ARE FINAL, AND HE IS ALLAHS MESSENGER. EVEN IF ALLAH DIDNT SAY THAT, MUHAMMED SAID IT, THATS EVIDENT FROM CITATIONS BY IINB. WE THE MUSLIMS, UNDERSTAND THAT, AND IT IS SOO SIMPLE THAT EVEN A 10 YEAR OLD WOULD UNDERSTAND. ALEX, HAS TO BE MENTALLY RETARDED, OR JUST AS KK SAID, WHITE TRASH WHO HAS NOTHING TO DO. NO JOB, INBREEDING IS HIS HOBBY. YOU WANTED SPECIFIC QUOTES, DOESNT MATTER WHO PROVIDES IT, YOU GOT IT TO SHUT YOUR FACEHOLE UP. AND I CANT BELIEVE U ARE STILL ARGUING YOU IGNORANT F**K. GO WORRY ABOUT FEEDING YOUR KIDS, CAUSE U GOTTA MOP MANY FLOORS AND CLEAN MANY TOILETS TO FEED THEM U TRAILOR SHIT!

140 ok i had to come back for that moron white dove trash. kkk doesnt have to mean ku klux klan. if u know some english, u kno that people use initials sometimes if they hav long name. my initials turn out to be kkk and i can use it whenever the hell i want. u have no point to prove so pick on people's initials. and no, i m not making islam look bad. just because my initials r kkk, my religion looks bad? thats the stupidest thing i have heard from anyone. its not ur fault to. lack of schooling in redneck society can be blamed for ur childish thoughts my friend. for others, as i said, ignoranceisnotbliss has said great things that other should be reading and understanding, and if they r still debating, even after that post, they need a life.

141 KKK, Oh I'm going to debate it KKK. Just because it's long doesn't mean his points are infallable.

142 To clarify, we are speaking about Amina Wadud here and on the multiple occasions I have interacted with her (including yesterday) the only parts of her that were visible were her face and hands. It is not fair to hold Amina accountable for the discrepancies of her congregation at the time. Islam promotes Chastity as a virtue and forbids adultery and fornication. So does mine! However it appears from your passage that men should lower their eyes. So if a woman is leading prayer and is covered... shouldn’t they lower their eyes? It seems there is a great deal of responsibility placed on women that should be on men. I see the reason why women were put in the back of the prayer line. But outside of the opinions of scholars, there are no hard facts to back these opinions up, just an interpretation of 1400 year old examples. In my religion we have many sects but the “southern baptists” for one, who have very prominent biblical “scholars” like (Jerry “Tinky Winky” Faldwell) that they look to for leadership. Though I am sure there are more extreme groups than the southern baptists, this group of individuals tends to be VERY fundamentalist like yourselves. I have heard Jerry Faldwell quoting very vague biblical scripture to justify our “war on terror” though God never once tells Christians to go to war nor did Jesus. As a matter of fact, the concept of war is in complete opposition to the teachings of Jesus, at least in the way the US is fighting it now. The problem is that this prominent leader is offering a vague interpretation to support the republican lifestyle which is wrong. For you it is very similar whether you believe it or not. The only difference is that I will stand up for the teachings of The Anointed One, Jesus in the face of scholarly opinion, because I know that these actions can not be justified Biblically. If your scholars are saying that a woman can’t lead a prayer in front of a mixed group of men, and it doesn’t say that in the Qu’ran... and The Prophet didn’t say it...Then your scholars are adding something to the Qu’ran. And if Islam is complete, the Qu’ran is complete. So to quote KKK, “If something is complete, why would you change it?” Your information is very good. I am answering questions as I read it and I am learning a lot about Islam, thank you. Why is it that if mixed prayer can be lead by men and not women? And could you quote the Qu’ran passage that talks about the placement of people in the mosque. I’m interested in learning about that. IINB, you said, “As for a woman calling the Adhan, giving the Friday sermon, and leading the Friday Prayer, we do not know of a single difference of opinion between the Muslims—scholars and laymen alike—concerning its impermissibility; the fact is that should such a Prayer and Adhan be performed, they would be incorrect.”“ There does seem to be a difference of opinion (maybe not on this message board) as long as Dr. Wadud has supporters that are Muslim. It’s true. I’m not Muslim. BUT I know she has a plethora of supporters. Then you said, “As for a woman being the imam of men in an unscheduled Prayer, the overwhelming majority of scholars have said that it is forbidden and the Prayer is invalid. However, At-Tabari, Abu Thawr, and Al-Muzani from the Shafi`ie school and Ibn `Arabi from the Dhahiri school held the opinion that it is permissible for a woman to lead men in Prayer and that their Prayer is valid. However, some scholars have her stand behind the men—even if she were to lead them—taking into consideration the principles mentioned above.” I see that scholars believe this... that’s fine. They put the women in the back because they will not lower their eyes. Why wouldn’t they lower their eyes. The Prophet says to lower your eyes right. So if the Woman is in the front, wouldn’t it be fine as long as the men lowered their eyes? And then... The evidence these scholars used is the hadith from Abu Dawud and Ad-Darqutni which states that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), allowed Umm Waraqah to lead her household in Prayer. The majority of scholars have understood this hadith as referring to supererogatory Prayers or to leading the women of her household or as being specific to Umm Waraqah. In spite of this, not a single Muslim from the East or West has followed this anomalous opinion. I’m curious as to why the Scholars determined that this woman can only lead supererogatory Prayers or women prayers. And again there must be adverse opinions to the situation or this wouldn’t be taking place. Majority opinion doesn’t make things right. I for one am glad I don’t follow the majority of the ideals that exist in America. So long story short, I’m not interested in personal opinion based on cultural norms. I’m looking for hard religious fact. (Then as for the foam, it passeth away as scum upon the banks, while, as for that which is of use to mankind, it remaineth in the earth) (Ar-Ra`d 13:17) So this means that if what Dr. Wadud is doing is just foam. It will wash away right? If it isn’t just foam it will remain. I like that, and agree with it, because it at least gives women a chance to lead. If it doesn’t catch on then it wasn’t meant to be. I can’t argue that because that sounds logical. Why are so many people upset then. If they expect this to wash away there is nothing to worry about “Free mixing between men and women is haraam, because it leads to many negative consequences and haraam things.The meeting together, mixing, and intermingling of men and women in one place, the crowding of them together, and the revealing and exposure of women to men are prohibited by the Law of Islam (Shari'ah). These acts are prohibited because they are among the causes for fitnah (temptation or trial which implies evil consequences), the arousing of desires, and the committing of indecency and wrongdoing.” In America we move about in mixed company everyday and maybe it is because I see people everyday, but I’m not tempted by them. Women in America often do not dress conservatively, but I’ve gotten used to that to and that loses its temptation too. I DO NOT disagree with Islamic law though. I’m cool with women not showing themselves to men... that is law and I have no arguments there This part of your response was great! But naturally I still have stuff to say... “Among the many proofs of prohibition of the meeting and mixing of men and women in the Qur’aan and Sunnah are: Verse No. 53 of Surat al-Ahzab, or the Confederates (Interpretation of the meaning); "...for anything ye want, ask them from before a screen: that makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs..."” Do you ask the Imam for anything when they are praying? Why would you ask a woman for something when she is leading prayer? Why would you talk to them when you should be praying? “In explaining this Verse, Ibn Kathir (May Allaah have mercy on him) said: "Meaning, as I forbade you to enter their rooms, I forbid you to look at them at all. If one wants to take something from a woman, one should do so without looking at her. If one wants to ask a woman for something, the same has to be done from behind a screen."” What does this have to do with prayer? Once again shouldn’t you be praying and not talking? The Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) enforced separation of men and women even at Allaah’s most revered and preferred place, the mosque. This was accomplished via the separation of the women’s rows from the men’s; men were asked to stay in the mosque after completion of the obligatory prayer so that women will have enough time to leave the mosque; and, a special door was assigned to women. Evidence of the foregoing are: There is nothing wrong with this procedure as far as I can see. If the process was described by the prophet, then that’s the way you do it. But again... this has nothing to do with the actual practice of prayer. Umm Salamah (May Allah be pleased with her) said that after Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said "as-Salamu ‘Alaykum wa Rahmatullah’ twice announcing the end of prayer, women would stand up and leave. He would stay for a while before leaving. Ibn Shihab said that he thought that the staying of the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) was in order for the women to be able to leave before the men who wanted to depart." Narrated by al-Bukhari under No. 793. Wait... is this the passage that separates women and men leaving together? That is just an interpretation. The Prophet could stay behind to pray by himself, or to relax alone by himself after prayer, or to knit a sweater in private. Ibn Shihab is speculating here... bigtime. And that is all I have time for. It’ll probably be Monday before I can pick it back up. I won’t be responding to any other messages to me until I have finished this post in its entirety

143 ALEX, JUST COZ URE POST IS LONG DOESNT MEAN THE POINTS ARE INFALLABLE. WHAT YOU DID IS QUOTED IINB, AND THEN ADDED YOUR BULLSHIT THAT NO ONE WILL AGREE HERE. WHAT I WANT FROM YOU ASSHOLE, IS SPECIFIC QUOTES FROM ALLAH, QURAN AND PROPHET WHICH SHOWS THAT THEY ALLOWED FEMALES TO LEAD PRAYER, ITS A SMALLEST SIMPLEST THING WHY THE FUCK DONT YOU UNDERSTAND? THIS IS OUR RELIGION. GO FIGURE URES OUT FIRST, THEN COME TO OURS, COZ NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY, OUR RELIGION IS COMPLETE. YOUR POINTS MAY BE GOOD FOR U, BUT "INFALLABLE" FOR US ALRIGHT. JUST WAIT TILL KK COMES BACK OR IINB POST SOMETHING. OH ACTUALLY, NO POINT. COZ YOU WILL QUESTION AGAIN. YOU WANT TO DEBATE FOR NO REASON.

144 I really think that from now on, we should all ignore what Alex has to say, because he has started to taking sayings of our Holy Prophet Apart, something no muslim can tolerate. Its what they say, just ignore the barking dog, and he will go somewhere else for his bone. And if I have enough time in future, which I do not, unlike Alexia Nervosa, i should, put some bible here, take it apart, and ask Mr., oops, i mean just Alex, some questions about it. I could do that, but I have too much respect for what the God said in bible. Alex, without any knowledge of our religion, comes here, and tries to vandalize Sayings? Definitely getting paid by someone to do that. It is that simple: If you want us to believe in something, support it. But since you cannot, you vandalize this forum.

145 Alex, you said that you have interacted with Amina. Well that supports the theory of someone paying to write this junk. you also said that her hands and her face was visible. well, in out religion, a woman is not supposed to show her face to any man other than her husband, father-grand, great grand father, brother and son. Those are the mehrum people, i.e. people who she cannot get married to (ofcourse with the exception of husband) so that act of her is totally against islam. well i doubt she is still a muslim. "[Tell the believing women] not to reveal their adornments except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women or the (female) slaves, or old male servants who lack vigor, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex" (al-Nur 31). from Quran, said by ALLAH. and for lowering eyes, if u know some psychology, it is human nature that his eyes wander. u live in america. women are all around. can u lower ur eyes when they r infront of u? they cannot be infront because again, its against the islamic rule of Hijab (covering) for all ages. Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) said, "Allah does not accept the prayer of a female who has reached the age of puberty except if she is wearing a head covering (khimaar)." This was recorded by al-Tirmidhi, Ahmad, Abu Dawud and ibn Majah.1 same for older women such as Amina Wadud Allah says, "And as for women past child-bearing who do not expect marriage, it is no sin upon them if they discard their (outer) clothing in such a way as not to show their adornment. But to refrain is better for them. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower" (al-Nur 60). for Amina Wadud's uncovered hands: "The woman should cover all of herself in front of non-mahram men, even if it be a husband's brother, sister's husband, cousin or others, and regardless if it be in the presence of mahram men or not. That is to cover her beauty and the cause of temptation, be it her face, arms, shin, chest and so forth. As for the hand or foot, apparently, it is allowed to show them for some need, such as when giving something to someone or receiving something and so forth. However, if one fears some kind of temptation, then they must remain covered. For example, that would be the case if a woman notices a non-related man gazing at a woman and not moving his eyes from her. This also means that mixing or sitting with non-mahram men is also forbidden if one fears any harmful consequences. Allah knows best." Shaikh ibn Uthaimin. this is just the 1st parts reponse, of u meeting amina wadud,and u certainly are a namehrum. so YES, we can hold her responsible for showing her face infront of live camera and namehrum men. and it IS women's responsibility to cover themselves. why , in ur country, there is a high rate of rapes, sexually abusing underages? Bill Clinton and Monica? Should they lower their eyes? where does it say in bible that you can sleep with someone else without being in wedlock? i m sure it doesnt, but wat is the reality of ur american society, that u speak of? then u say that those examples are 1400 years old. well, islam is 1400 years old too. and those examples are religious practices by Asahaabs (companions) of Prophet Muhammed, that are supported by Our Prophet. you saying "if allah doesnt say it, prophet doesnt say it", well, to be honest, i have doubts about ur knowledge. iibn has cited verses of Quran , hence the words of allah, and then ahadith, the words of prophet muhammaed SAW, so be careful what u say here.and no, scholars didnt add anything to ahadith and quran. citations are still there, go back and read them. the difference of opinion u speak of, who has different opinions? any companion or Prophet, any legitimate scholar, who? name one and quote it. and if u sayin that amina wadud's supporters hav different opinion, then my friend, u r back to square one, cuz THAT is the whole debate. quote something valid, and then talk about the difference in opinions.talk about THIS message board, not some other board. majority of scholars arent agreeing on something they made up. they are agreeing on that umm-Warqa Hatidh. She wanted to become a martyr by going on a war with Muhammed, and Muhammed told her that she will be called "shaheed" in her house, so she doesnt have to to to the war. she can stay home and lead a prayer, and only females were her house. - tirmazi that is the story. atleast 5 of the imams have told this hadith in prayers that i attended , and yes, here, mosque in america. cant disagree with them. cant disagree with hadith. verse number three of sura ahzab, cited, about asking for something behind the screen. and ur answer, that "do u ask a imam when he is praying . .. " clearly shows us that you have no understanding of our religion, Quran, and no power to interprete things the right way. u just have no knowledge whatsoever. THAT verse is for both men and women, that their should be a screen "or a curtain" between two of them so they cannot see each other if theyr are namehrum for each other. it DOESNT mean in any context that u shld ask an Imam for something while he is praying. u need Quranic Knowledge to interprete things the right way, and if u cannot, then might as well dont. and then again u ask "shouldnt they be not talking while praying"- poor understanding of ures. it means that u should not look at the woman if she is namehrum, and neither should the woman. wat does it has to do with the prayer? well Amina wadud was seen by many namehrum men who prayed behind her. thats against Allah. IINB is trying to explain to u the whole concept of hijab that u dont seem to understand, and u ask dumb questions. then, when she cites the "men and women separeted in mosque, men stayed later, women assigned a separate door . . .. ", it does hav to do something with actual prayer. if a female is leading, then women will be standing mixed with men. cuz they will say "oh our imam is female, leading a prayer, leading men, why shouldnt we be mixed"- if they do, thats against Quranic Law of Hijab. if they dont, thats good. it will result in a mixed congregation, which is not allowed by islam. therefore they r separated. then u say "ibn shihab is speculating here".how? Prophet stayed and prayed a little late, thus allowing women to leave early, to avoid them getting mixed. how so, because the companions of Prophet stayed with him unless he was finished. nobody went anywhere, as Prophet made some dua, whereas the women were told to leave 1st to avoid any mixup. Male companions of Prophet had love of Allah and Prophet, and respect for females. thats not just an interpretetion. thats a fact. an no, our Prophet would "knit a sweater". every action of his had a purpose. u said if i hav quranic knowledge, why dont i put it. so i did. now, its a challenge for u. u and amina wadud, show me one quranic verse, one saying of prophet mumammed SAW, that allows female prayer leader. u have been beating about the bush ripping people's posts apart, and u havent even cited one verse, one hadith, one quote from a scholar. dont talk about bible here. i have no knowledge of what is inside the bible, so i wont ever question anything unless i know. talk about Allah, Quran, And Prophet Muhammed here. you dont arent tempted by other woman in american society, strange for u, and good for u. men in islamic society arent either, due to those islamic laws that i quoted. those laws acts as safeguards for women in islamic society, whereas there is no religious safeguard for woman in america. they show their body off, provoke men. i never heard of "date rape" in my country, or my society, cuz of the safeguard laws of hijab in islam. date rape in america is common. so is rape, and child molestation.

146 make that verse 53 instead of "3". and pardon me for not running a spell check. i type extremely fast, and there is a huge potential of grammar mistakes and spelling mistakes at that speed. i dont see any point coming back now. Alex's pattern is known to be just taking posts apart and improvising questions that dont make sense. so far, she hasnt convinced anyone but a bunch of yahoos who have no brain. i can tell u that he will take my post apart, and put some stupid questions, provoking me to answer them and then he will continue, and this debate, which was ended long ago by iinb's post, will continue for no reason. therefore, i have no plans to come back here and answer his dumb questions, UNLESS he comes up with ONE verse from Quran, or ONE Hadith, that is VALID. he knows he cannot BS cuz we have full access to ahadith, and Quran. ACCEPT this challenge. dont be afraid. till then, peace out everybody, hope to NOT see u all again.

147 Man oh man... I have time to read, but not to respond and it sucks because I want to. But I do want to say this KKK. I'm asking questions because I want to know. You said you don't question things you don't know. Then how do you learn? I find this a great way of learning. I don't see why you are getting upset. You shouldn't confuse "human nature" with what God commands. If the prophet said to lower your eyes... You lower your eyes. No questions. You do not justify your wandering eyes by citing human nature. HOw disgraceful, do you think the prophet would accept that? Don't shun your responsibilty in the eyes of God. You are bending the commandments to suit your needs. Sounds as if that SHaytan fellow has gotten in your ear my friend. Allah wouldn't be proud. Also momina. I'm not picking parts of the Quran or the prophets commandments appart. I suggest you rereaD what I wrote. I'm picking apart "scholarly" commandments that weren't said by the prophet or Allah. And now back to writing a paper. See you guys again after the weekend, and if you leave me a bunch of posts know that for the sake of practicality and time, I won't be responding to most of them. I want to finish my response to IINB seeing as how IINB is actually interested in teaching me. So if you do post to me, please make it short and relevant because reading four days of back logged message board content is going to get old fast, and if your message board diss is more than a paragraph long. I'll probably skip it. PEace

148 WAT THE FUCK YE MEAN MAKE IT SHORT. WUT ARE YE SCARED OF EH? GODS COMMANDS ARE FOR HUMANS TO CONTROL THEIR NATURE, AND COMMANDED WUMEN TO COVER EM UP. LAST TIME I READ, THERE WAS A CHALLANGE FOR YE. CUM ON BE A MAN. PUT SOMETHING DOWN THERE. SAD TO SEE YE HAVE NOTHING VALID AND SPECIFIC TO SAY HERE. YE SAY MAKE IT SHORT? JUST COZ YE GOT B-I-T-C-H-E-D BY KK. HAHAHAHAHA! GET THE FUCK OUTA THIS FORUM, GO FIGURE OUR RELIGION OUT PROPERLY, WHICH AINT HARD, OR GO FUCK YERSELF. YE WANTED VERSES, SAYINGS OF PROPHET, GOT EM ALL. WAT DO YE HAV TO SAY PERTAINING TO THEM? N-O-T-H-I-N-G. YE RUN AWAY FUCKIN COWARD, COZ U GOT D-I-C-K-E-D!

149 NO BODY IS INTERESTED IN TEACHING U. QUESTIONS ARE GOOD FOR LEARNING, BUT QUESTIONS U ASK, ARE QUESTIONING THE VALIDITY OF SAYINGS OF OUR PROPHET, AND GOD. THEN U MAY ALSO QUESTION, WHY THERE IS GOD. MAY BE SINCE YER BIBLE IS SCREWED UP BY CHANGES, U DONT KNOW NOTHING. I AGREE WITH IINBLISS, AND KKK, AND ALL THOSE MAH FELLA MUSLIMS WHO MADE YOU LOOK LIKE A RETARD. GOOD JOB.

150 DeepX, Your Caps lock is stuck.

151 OH WHAT A GREAT ANSWER ALEX. BOY YE R 1 DUMB WHITE CRAP. HAHAHAHA. MY CAPS LOCK IS STUCK. REALLY, THAT IS HOW MUCH INTELLIGENCE U HAVE. AND PROVES YE HAV NOTHING TO SAY. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

152 my god, what has gotten into this amina. may god help her and her jamaat. don't they know islam is perfect as it is, no need for anymore additions? may god help us to stop her and return her to islam, prophet muhammad's islam. he is the one we must follow, not amina the dr. next maybe she'll say women can marry four men. follow god's message, please! dr. amina, know that you're wrong. and know that the educated must promote islam for the sake of mankind. it's enough that we have muslims permitting the killing of children and innocent people. god save us, all of us. amen.

153 To Jacquelina: You may want to stop claiming that the World's Greatest Man (Muhammed PBUH -that is) and the World's Most Honest Man was just making things up. You don't agree with his teachings that come straight from God, fine, just watch your mouth, okay? I mean, you better do that. Otherwise, you will have to deal with me. To Alex: I suggest you take REAL Islamic courses taught by some REAL Islamic Studies profs. You obviously have been brain-washed by Amina "The Idiot" Wadud. Or you know what? Simply go to www.islamonline.net and learn the real Islamic teachings, the real good reasons, and the real greatness of Islam. I mean, hello!!!! How COULD you say women during the time of the Prophet were used as properties?????? Didn't you know that it wasn't before Muhammed PBUH had come that Arab men stopped getting rid of their daughters alive, it wasn't before the spread of his great messages that women were granted full rights -- from their rights to get their divorce when they needed it, to the rights of inheriting a relative, the rights of being financially supported by their husbands, their amazing amazing AMAZING rights as wives... etc etc.. Or Amina didn't mention that in class?? To Deep X: I can't believe you're saying that you're Muslim when you're swearing and saying all these dirty, not-cool-at-all words!!!!! What's up, dude?? ================================================== People. Listen up. Just because a prayer should be led by a man, it doesn't make men better than women. Also, the leader of the prayer is no greater than the people praying behind him, be they men or women. So why is this Amina trying to make herself look great??? It isn't getting her nowhere. I recommend her to a psychiatrist.. Finally... A woman can be a mother, and Heaven is at the feet of mothers, but a man can never be a mother. See how great a woman is?? We don't need to do things that were specifically assigned as man's jobs.. WE'VE GOT OUR OWN STUFF, baby..

154 OK, forget about Ku Klux Klan guy, and lets see how Deep-X speaks.... how islamic was that???? WAT THE FUCK ...... .. YE GOT B-I-T-C-H-E-D BY KK. HAHAHAHAHA! .........GET THE FUCK OUTA THIS FORUM, ........GO FUCK YERSELF........ YE RUN AWAY FUCKIN COWARD.............. COZ U GOT D-I-C-K-E-D! Posted by: Deep X at March 30, 2005 10:06 Mr/Ms Deep X is this how you were taught to speak and converse with others??? Actually you give Islam a bad name!!

155 OOOOOOHHHHWH. HAHAHAHAHAHA. ALL OF U LITTLE PAID BIATCHES, WHO YE COME TO DEFEND? KKK=KU KLUX KLAN?, U R SOO FUCKIN DUMB WHITE TRASH DOVE. U DONT HAV ENUF BALLS TO ANSWER HIM OR IINB. LIKE I SAID, YA ALL GOT BITCHED.NOW YE SCRATCHIN THE POLE.

156 Stop swearing Mr Deep freeze!! You are rude and foul mouthed. I know muslims don't speak like that!!!!!!!!!

157 Here's my take on this whole thing. You all thing Islam is complete..thats the stupidest thing i've ever heard. Every religion is flawed b/c its made up by man. You can say what you want about mohammed or JC, but lets face it...they were just men that got people to buy into their shit... Btw, if Islam is so perfect why are so many ME countries so backwards? Why do a bunch of people come to the west? CAUSE IT"S BETTER!!!

158 KKK, My message is simple and if it has to benefit any one it will. And Allah knows best. If you could not quote anything from Qur'an it is okay for I am not a mufti myself. Here I am trying to help our brother Alex who needs our help because this religion is not for Muslims only but for mankind. Therefore, I did not like the way you responded to my post. Please go back and read what you have written and compare between the manners of your and our beloved Prophet pbuh. This is the problem with us Muslims is that we do not respect what we say. We do not believe in what we say otherwise our behavior and our manners would be according to our only model and that is the Prophet pbuh. It saddens me because I am not here to mock or insult any one. May Allah save me from that but I am here to give the message of the Prophet pbuh. There are people out there who are spreading false idealogies of Islam and we cannot stop them. We cannot wait our time stopping them because we have a duty and that duty is to spread the message of Islam to those who do not know. I am sorry if I sound mean to you for a beliver is a mirror of another believer. My gender should not be a matter because I am only here to talk about Allah who is important. I am not important. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. Alex, I am totally be honest with you and it is all up to you friend to seek the truth. I am not here to win the agrument but to tell you the truth. And Of course when I see the way people have responded to you, I feel like crying to Allah because this is not the manner of Muslim should be towards some one who is not a muslim. We are people of mercy and not hate and many of us has forgotten our adabs ( manners). Please don't judge islam based on these people but look at the message. Indeed it is my fault who is not doing much to spread goodness. Alex, I swear to Allah and infront of Allah swt that I am not here to win any argument. Whatever I wrote was only to benefit you and a reminder to myself. I am no better than you and Allah swt knows what is in our heart. If I become arrogant over my deen, Allah swt can switch me around and make and totally disgrace to this ummah. And Allah swt can make you a mercy to this ummah and make you someone who can elevate this deen. Islam is not for me only but for all mankind. May Allah swt open for you, ammen. I have said it before and I am saying it again to my brothers that please watch your tongue. If you claim yourself the follower of the Prophet PBUH, than live his example. Don't just talk but live. I hope it is clear to every one. wasalaam u alaiakum

159 there is enough splitting in christianity. if the schools of maliki, hanafi, shafii, and hambali do not permit a women leading men in prayer, what sect is dr wadud in? stop this woman or islam will split too.

160 wow, a good point of view from james. i presume you're a christian? yours is a fresh idea. i've never thought of that...

161 AMINA WADUD IS NOT A MUSLIM. SHE IS A DISBELIEVING INFIDEL AND HER PLACE IS IN THE DEPTHS OF HELL. UNLESS SHE REPENTS AND CORRECTS HERSELF, FOR INDEED, ALLAH IS THE MOST FORGIVING AND THE MOST MERCIFUL.

162 IINB, i still dont understand what u mean. which post u r talking about? i didnt respond to any post of ures, i m simply answering these people in the way they deserved to be answered. and u r mistaken by calling Alex our brother. every one has a different style of talking, and sorry, i dont sit here with a dictionary putting big words. I am what I am. instead of criticing the way i posted, u should be appreciating someone who is trying to defend our position against ur so-called brother Alex, and other "brothers". i m not wrapped in reynold wrap to use glossy words so these non-believers will like it. if that the case, then Alex should have long gone after reading your post. but he is a stubborn person who doesnt make sense at all. so far i havent used any foul language. and these arent the days that Prophet PBUH is around so these stubborn people will polietly listen to him. i have no problems with non muslims. i am in their company everyday and night, and treat them the way they should be treated. i m not gonna use fancy words to please these people. i will have to be harsh so they will GET what i m trying to say. so be on one side, and like james said, let us not split. stand together to fight them. and a debate IS to win or to lose. this is not a school here. i have tried to tell Alex many times to read a book, get information that he needs, but if he is quoting Hadith and questioning them, no way a true muslims will answer laid back.

163 my post shouldnt sadden u. What should really sadden u is death of innocent nonmuslims in iraq by that extremist zarqawi. he makes islam look bad. Instead of calling Alex ur brother, his ignorance should sadden u. terri schiavo's death should sadden u. tsunami should sadden u. there r plenty of thinks that should make us sad, not the structure of my post. if u r debating for something, u gotta come strong. i m far from being an extremist muslim. i m not a cleric. i m a simple muslim who loves Allah, religion and Prophet PBUH. but i m also far from being a weak link as well.

164 KKK, I meant to say your reply to Alex. I appreciate your defending Islam, wallahi I do brother. But brother do question yourself about what happened at the taif when our Prophet PBUH went with a message? What did the people of taif do to him? What was his reaction towards them? They stoned him until he started bleeding but he did not blame them. Instead he made a dua to Allah swt saying "oh Allah, I complain to you of my weakness etc.... Did our Prophet cursed them or treated them harshly? Not at all brother. Wallahi wallahi and wallahi, I am swearing three times because this is a dangerous time we are living in. Our problems cannot be compared to the problems of our Prophet and his companions and still we act according to our emotions. I am not blaming you for any foul language but others. You know of whom I speak. But brother we have to be patient and wise in answering the non-muslims because again like I said Islam is not only for us but them as well too. When I say wise, meaning you react not according to your emotions but you know what to say and how to react according to a situation. Believe me majority of the Muslims today are not wise and I am including myself in the list too. We really have to ask Allah swt to open for us and to give us the qualities of the prophet and his companions. Alex is not the only one out there. There are million and billions like him who are ignorant about this deen. If we scare them all,than are we really following the sunnah? Again, no harsh feelings but try to read Men around messenger by khalid Muhammad khalid. It is a great book for us especially because it set's a good example for us. may Allah swt forgive us our sins, ameen. fi amanillah

165 DeepX, Please don't curse for it is not the adab of a believer. Thank you

166 Alex massacred ur post in which u put Quranic Verses and Hadith. how did u defend IINB? where was ur answer to Alex? I STEPPED up to defend it. and made him say " oh man i wanna answer so bad but i hav no time". thats bunch of garbage. he couldnt answer it. he couldnt accept the challenge. and all this time u went into background. disappeared, and let Alex tear ur nice post apart. I was the only one who dared, because i can. IINB, your thoughts about me really disappointed me. so i dont see any point of posting anymore, cuz if my fellow muslims r going against each other, there is no way we can make those non muslims believe in our point. muslims r gettin beaten cuz they dont support each other. i m not Alex's or anyone's enemy. my purpose is same as ures, to make him understand our religion. but if u fail to show support to ur fellow muslims, dont expect any support back. i m deleting this page from my link, not cuz of arrogant posts by anyone else, but a disappointing post by you that makes look muslims weak. good luck in futur trying to make these people understand ur point, but i aint comin back. wassalaam.

167 Alex, I have a question for you. Do you believe in the Creator? If yes why and if no than why not? If you are going to see Amina Wadud some times soon than ask her this, Why did not any women at the time of the Prophet and Companions and the taabaeens and the tabataabaeens lead mix-gender prayer? Then give her the hadith The Prophet said, "The people of my generation are the best, then those who follow them, and then whose who follow the latter. After that there will come some people whose witness will go ahead of their oaths, and their oaths will go ahead of their witness." And ask her what does it mean? If she is on the right path she would say what I am saying that anything new in islam after the three generations is something called creating something new to Islam-bid'ah. And every innovation is leading to HELLFIRE. Only if she and you understand. About the Hadiths, It seemed to me that you understood nothing Alex. It is my fault because I forgot for a moment that you are not a Muslim and therefore without studying them from context you will never understand them and it will make you confuse already. But my whole point was to give you proofs which you could not understand. It is like you are majoring in mathematics and I give you a puzzle to solve in history which you have no clue of. So, I believe you are in trouble now and to find out how, ask the Creator. This knowledge will either be against you tomorrow or will be for you, it is your choise take it or leave it One thing you said that you do not feel tempted by all kind of temptations is becasue your women have exposed themselves to the extreme and itis why you are not tempted because they cannot satisfy you anymore so you look for something else to satisfy your soul and that is why we have so many gay people around nyc. If you study Psychology, you'll know what I mean. I have nothing else to say except Islam is the Only religion except by the Creator. Anyone who is not holding on to the Qur'an and the Sunnah will be misguided and every misguidance will lead to innovation and every innovation leads to Hellfire. There is no god but Allah and Muhammad pbuh is the messenger of Allah swt. May Allah swt guide us to the truth which will lead all of us to jannah, ameen.

168 KKK, Listen, don't misunderstand me. May Allah swt forgive me because I do not intend to disappoint anyone of you. Allah swt knows my intentions. May be I was so upset reading others post and forgot who used foul language. Any way, brother forgive me for I do not wish you keep something against me in your heart. I would really appreciate your forgiveness and mercy towards me. But I wanted to make something clear to everyone but I believe it is not the time yet. I hope you do forgive me insha-allah. fi amanillah

169 hey IINB, dont be sorry dude. its all kool. i have nothing against u. i just didnt like that post about me thats all. i have nothing against anyone in my heart man. i m just disappointed in general how muslims r splitted and splitting cuz of some external forces who want them to break apart. we should all be one, with a strong stance. i do it in my style, u in ures. but there is no point of this debate anymore. u made ur points, i made mine, but ignorants will never get it.butting heads with fools is bringing urself down to their level, which i dont want to. so i will stop now. keep up ur good work man, u sound like a very good devoted muslim,and if u ever need me back, email me, cuz i wont be reading this forum anymore. may allah forgive all of us for having any tensions and misunderstandings between us. lets be good muslims, and kick some evil rears.

170 "YOU ALL ARE STUPID". What exactly do you mean by saying that all middle east countries are backward? I live in UAE, and i have no intentions to move westward. You Americans buy Oil from ME, because you cannot mine it of your own. If ME doesnt provide you with oil, you guys are screwed bigtime. and what makes you think that West is better. you call Islam muaazallah incomplete and flawed? well, west is basically christian and some jewish influenced. if you claim that all the religions are flawed, and west society is better, how is that possible. wont ur flawed religion make it a bad place too? "buying into those men's shit" - that shows you have no respect for the creator, the religions, so it can be assumed that you dont have respect for your mother, your dad, anything in the world. sorry, but no one here, with the exception of some self-proclaimed ingenious people will buy you atheist bullshit here.

171 To my muslim brother land sister , please join me to pray for Amina so that Allah will get out of the darkness and bring her to lightness cos she didnt know what she is diong.All stupid fool supporting her are the evil and i will pray that u guys go to hell.

172 I found a website in which this individual named Amina Wadud was interwieved, clearly from her statement below that she is challenging Allah The Almighty. She said that "Sharia was happy to legislate for women, even to define what is the proper role of women, and to do so without women as participants. So obviously that is a major flaw". She is saying as if there is something wrong with the laws that has been provided through Islam and as if blaming Allah for not allowing women to participate in making Syariah Law. I ask you Amina Wadud, is there any such thing as men being allowed to participate in Allah's decision, let alone humans or even animals? And in which history book that you learned that Allah asks us humans for instructions? In simple words, does Allah ever needs assistance from his creation(humans, jinns, animals, etc.) to help Him in his tasks? And I would like her to answer to us, from what possible perspective that we humans are more knowledgeable than Allah? I challenge her supporters to answer me, are we humans comparable to Allah? Are we more brilliant than Allah? Are we even the slightest superior from Allah? Here is the article : - With regard to women, is there a gender bias against women inherent in Islamic law, or Sharia, as is perceived in the West? From my perspective, Sharia is thoroughly patriarchal. ... You cannot legislate with regard to the well-being of women without women as agents of their own definition. And Sharia was not concerned with that construction. Sharia was happy to legislate for women, even to define what is the proper role of women, and to do so without women as participants. So obviously that is a major flaw. And the only way for that aspect of Sharia to be corrected would be a radical reform in the way in which it is thought. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/muslims/interviews/wadud.html

173 Questions, can someone plz enlighten me: Q1: Is there a verse in Quran which prohibits the leadership of woman? Q2: Is there a verse in Quran which prohibis woman going to prayers with men? Q3: Did Muhammad PBUH led prayers where women were present, was this tradition not followed at Mosques in Medina and Mecca until very recently. Q4: Is this not true that Arabs want money to mary their daughter, a cultural issue? Q5: Should the Arab Pimpism of selling their daughters be considered Islam? Q6: Does Islam promotes black marketting of Women as sex slaves? Q7: Saudi(s) now have seperate prayer areas for Men and women in mosques. Are they planning to do the same at their Airports? Q8: When is next Saudi Airport for woman only due? Q9: Can a Woman drive a car, an aeroplane, can they lead in any wqy? Q10: Who was the leader of the War at Jamal, was it Ayesha w/o Muhammad PBUH? My dear fellows, in my opinion, Arab Culture is driven by Arab pimpism. They sell their daughters for higher prices. If women and men mix together, the prices of their daughters go down. This let to their segregation. If men and women can be togther in an aeroplace, at an airport, at universities and so many other places then why men and women can not pray together? Think. Let us all stop Arab Pimpism. Peace.

174 One thing for sure, that Wadud is not one of Moslems. she is for sure one of the dajjal taking form of human, if she continues campaigning what she is doing now. see you in hell Sistah....

175 Hey Harold R U going to hell too? You said see you in hell!!!!

176 I have read all of these posts, but up to now I have not commented. Understand that this arguement over Amina Wadud's actions should be limited to the Qur'an and sunnah. We should look at it only from the point of view of the the materials the Prophet provided us. There is one argument I see over and over that as a Muslim I must refute. The argument is that men would be distracted by a woman next to them or in front of them in prayer. Let me say AS A MUSLIM PRAYER SHOULD BE BETWEEN YOU AND ALLAH, YOU SHOULD BE 100% FOCUSED ON ALLAH AND SEEING HIS BEING. IF YOU CANNOT FOCUS BECAUSE OF YOUR PENIS AND SEXUALITY YOU ARE NOT A GOOD MUSLIM. NO WOMEN, MAN, BUSH, OR ANYONE ELSE WILL EVER DISTRACT ME FROM ALLAH IN PRAYER. SHAME ON THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE SO WEAK. I URGE YOU TO SEEK A BETTER RELATIONSHIP WITH ALLAH. I am not saying Amina is right, only Allah knows that for certain. I am busy studying the materials Allah has provided me to better understand this issue with patients and in the absence of the anger I felt when I first heard about it. This action by Amina caught me off-guard, and I was quick in my mind to say it is wrong, but before I speak words to the world I must spend a lot of time in prayer to fully understand this and be able to say with certainty whether it is completely wrong, completely right, or in some parts wrong or right. All of us should take extra time in face of this spend time in prayer and seek the guidance of Allah.

177 I have already posted the website's address containing the fact that Amina Wadud is misleading Islam and its followers. Bear in mind that I was not talking about her leading the prayers, in fact it was about Amina Wadud disregarding the Syariah of Islam. If she is what appears to be a true Muslim, and like any of us Muslims, would you really think that there is something wrong with Syariah? I am absolutely not the most knowledgeable Muslim , but I have never been taught that there is something wrong with even a part of Islam and I believe that there should not be anything wrong with it. My opinion is, those who say there is something wrong about a part of Islam are either deviationists or deviated, mubasyyirin and mustasyriqin. These types of people are those who mislead Muslims and tarnish Islam religion, they dont convert Muslims to other religion but attracts Muslims to forget Islam.

178 HEY WHITE DOVE: Harold is right. You don't have to go to Hell to see the people of Hellfire burning in Hell. It says in the Qur'an that the people of Paradise will be looking at the people of Hellfire...and guess what else??? They will even be able to talk to eachother!!! You should read more Qur'an. May Allah guide us.

179 In The Name of Allah, The Entirely Merciful, The Especially Merciful. Indeed ALL praise belongs to Allah alone, we praise Him, seek His help and forgiveness. And we seek refuge in Allah from the evil of our own selves and from the evil of our deeds. Whomsoever Allah guides, none can lead astray; and whomsoever Allah allows to stray, none can guide. And I bear witness that there is no god worthy of worship except Allah alone, without any partner(s); and I bear witness that Muhammad (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is His slave and Messenger. To Proceed: It seems that we devoted and practicing Muslims need to explain ourselves better to non-Muslims and those ignorant Muslims who follow the ideologies of Amina Wadud. We have not done a good job at all explaining ourselves. All we have done is make bashing comments directed at those who do not side with us. This is wrong. To make matters worse we do it without providing proof as to where we get these ideas and why we stick to them so stubbornly. And that’s exactly what those who do not understand us think we are…stubborn! Brothers and sisters, let us do what the Qur’an instructs us and “argue with them in the best of manners.” Now, to those who agree with what Amina Wadud is doing in the name of Islam: First and foremost, you must understand that we practicing Muslims unanimously agree that this woman is in no way helping Islam or Muslims. Further, we believe (in fact, we know!) that this woman, Amina Wadud, is not a Muslim at all, even if she claims to be. I will prove this to you, so just bare with me. In order for you to understand why she is rejected by the Muslim masses you must first understand the sources of the Islamic creed. We have to look at what makes a “Muslim” a true Muslim (notice I put it in quotations; because every one who calls himself/herself a “Muslim” doesn’t necessarily mean that he/she is a Muslim in the truest sense of the word, which literally means “one who submits himself/herself to God”). Now the sources of the Islamic creed are the Qur’an and the Sunnah of The Prophet, Muhammad (may the peace and blessings of God be upon him). But before we can look at what these sources say about Amina Wadud’s beliefs, we have to prove their authenticity; because if we just say what the sources say about this woman’s beliefs, you may reject it and say this is fabricated and stay supporting Wadud. However, to keep this argument as short as possible, I will mainly provide proof of authenticity of the Qur’an because discussing the authenticity of the Sunnah would be, in and of itself, a very lengthy topic. Muslims believe that the Qur’an is the literal word of God as spoken to Muhammad (PBUH) through the Angel Gabriel (Jibreel, in the Arabic tongue). The word “Qur’an” in Arabic means “that which is recited.” The book form of the Qur’an is called “The Mus-haf,” meaning “the scripture.” Therefore, the scripture of the “Qur’an” is not the Qur’an unless it is recited, meaning whenever you hear it is when you can call it “Qur’an” but when you see it on paper it is “The Mus-haf”…this is very important for my next point. The Qur’an presents a very bold challenge to mankind saying: “And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses [and supporters] other than Allah, if you should be truthful. But if you do not—and you will never be able to—then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.” (2:23-24) Mankind is being challenged to produce one “surah” (a chapter) like that of one surah from the Qur’an. Then it goes on to say that even if we tried, we will never be able to produce a surah like that of one surah from the Qur’an. Because we will never be able to produce a surah like that of the Qur’an, we are ordered to fear the Fire because then we must know that the Qur’an is truly the word of God (because no man could ever produce something like it). Now for this challenge to be met with success, this surah that would be produced by man must be a recitation (because the Qur’an is recitation), and further it must be memorized by the masses (because that’s how the Qur’an was preserved from the time of its revelation up until today), and even further, it must have a powerful message (like that of the Qur’an). So think about this: The Qur’an was revealed over 1,426 years ago and this challenge was presented in it…until today, no one has been able to produce a single chapter like that of the chapters of the Qur’an! And many have tried. On top of that, the shortest chapter of the Qur’an is only three verses! Mankind for over 1,426 years (and counting) has not been able to produce even three verses like that of the Qur’an! And like the Qur’an tells us, we will never be able to. This is proof that this Qur’an (recitation) was revealed by God to Muhammad (PBUH) because only God can make such statements that turn out to be true. It is a historical fact that the Qur’an, since the time of its revelation, has not been changed or modified in any way; not a single sentence, not a single word, not even a single letter! It is perfectly intact, unchanged, just the way it was when it was first revealed! This is a historical fact (go do your research)! Further, the Qur’an in itself makes this claim over 1,426 years ago…that it will never be changed or altered in any way because it is from God and God will protect it: “Indeed, it is We Who sent down the message [the Qur’an], and indeed, We will be its guardian.” (15:9) So ask yourselves this: How can any book or any message make such claims that turn out to be true even 1,426 years after its revelation? The only logical explanation is that this book or message is what it says it is, “A revelation from The Lord of the worlds,” Allah (The Exalted)! And this is not even mentioning the scientific miracles that the Qur’an speaks about; scientific miracles that have just recently been discovered by scientists using modern technology which did not exist 1,426 years ago. To learn more, check out this site: http://www.islam-guide.com/ Now that it is clear that the Qur’an is in its entirety a revelation from God, let’s see what it says about what Amina Wadud is preaching: Amina Wadud believes that some rulings in the Qur’an regarding prescribed punishments (like the cutting of the hand of a thief) is barbaric and, therefore, not acceptable. Amina Wadud believes that if one does not comprehend some verses of the Qur’an, then it is acceptable to disregard these verses and reject them. She believes that the status women are given to that of men, by the Qur’an, is a lowly status and, therefore, unjust. And among other things, she believes that same-sex marriages are acceptable. These beliefs clearly go against what the Qur’an says. One can say that if the Qur’an makes a statement that Wadud rejects, then it is clear that she is going against the rulings prescribed by God. Let’s see what Allah says about this behavior: “And none reject Our verses except the disbelievers.” (29:47) “Rather, it (the Qur’an) is distinct verses [preserved] within the breasts of those who have been given knowledge. And none reject Our verses except the wrongdoers.” (29:49) “And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed—then it is those who are the disbelievers.” (5:44) “But whoever disbelieves in it from the [various] factions—The Fire is his (or her) promised destination. So be not in doubt about it. Indeed, it is the truth from your Lord, but most of the people do not believe. And who is more unjust than he (or she) who invents a lie about Allah? Those will be presented before their Lord, and the witnesses will say, ‘These are the ones who lied against their Lord.’ Unquestionably, the curse of Allah is upon the wrongdoers. Who averted [people] from the way of Allah and sought to make it [seem] crooked while they, concerning the Hereafter, were disbelievers.” (11:17-19) “Indeed, those who inject deviation into Our verses are not concealed from Us. So, is he who is cast into the Fire better or he who comes secure on the Day of Resurrection? Do whatever you will; indeed, He is Seeing of what you do. Indeed, those who disbelieve in the message after it has come to them…and indeed, it is a mighty Book. Falsehood cannot approach it (the Qur’an) from before it or from behind it; [It is] a revelation from [He Who is] Wise and Praiseworthy.” (41:40-42) “And who is more unjust than one who invents a lie about Allah or says, ‘It has been inspired to me,’ while nothing has been inspired to him (or her), and one who says, ‘I will reveal [something] like what Allah revealed.’ And if you could but see when the wrongdoers are in the overwhelming pangs of death while the angels extend their hands, [saying], ‘Discharge your souls! Today you will be awarded the punishment of [extreme] humiliation for what you used to say against Allah other than the truth and [that] you were, toward His verses, being arrogant.” Amina Wadud is in fact being arrogant toward the verses of the Qur’an. She is just like Satan when he was ordered by Allah to prostrate before Adam and he refused saying, “I am better than him. You created me from fire and you created him from clay.” Satan attributed to Allah the quality of injustice by claiming that Allah was making him prostrate himself to a lesser being. Allah referred to Satan as a disbeliever because Satan disbelieved in the attribute of Allah that He is The Absolutely Just (meaning none is more just than Allah). Amina Wadud is doing something similar to what Satan did in that she is claiming that women have a higher status than what the Qur’an says. She is, in essence, saying what Satan said: “We women are better than this. We deserve a higher status than what the Qur’an gives us. We should be equal to men,” while the Qur’an clearly states that men and women are not the same. This is complete and total disbelief, as you are attributing to The Absolutely Just One the quality of injustice. The Prophet (PBUH) once said, “Who is just if Allah and His Messenger are not just?” meaning that NONE is more just than Allah and His Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him). Additionally, Amina Wadud is, in essence, claiming to know more about God’s creation than God Himself! If God has prescribed a certain punishment (in the Qur’an) for whatever sin, then you come and say, “No, it should be this way.” Aren’t you saying that you know more than The All-Knowing??? The same can be said about all of her views that contradict the Qur’an and the Sunnah. With regard to women leading prayers and such deviant acts, these are additions to the religion of Islam, which is already complete as stated in the Qur’an: “This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed my favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion.” (5:3) The Prophet (PBUH) said, “The most evil of affairs are newly invented ones (in the religion), for every newly invented practice is an innovation (bid’ah), every innovation is misguidance, and every misguidance is in the Fire.” Additionally, in another hadith, he (PBUH) was sitting in a gathering with his companions. He took a stick and drew a straight line in the sand then from the sides of that straight line he drew many crooked lines staggering outward (like a tree branch). He then asked his companions, “Do you know what this is?” They said, “Allah and His Messenger know best.” He (PBUH) said, “The middle straight line is the Siraat-al-Mustaqeem (The Straight Path) which leads straight to Paradise. These other little crooked lines are deviant paths which lead to the Hellfire. At the end of every deviant path is a devil calling the people to it.” They said, “O Messenger of Allah, how do we know which path is that straight path?” He (PBUH) said, “That straight path is the path that you and I are already upon.” So we can conclude that anyone who follows the way of The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) has been guided to The Straight Path which leads to Paradise. At the time of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) women never led men in prayers, thus, this is an innovation. And as explained earlier, innovation leads to the Fire! The correct way is the way of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and unless a certain practice is okayed by him or the Qur’an, then it is rejected by Allah, as The Messenger (PBUH) said, “Whoever adds anything to this matter of ours (meaning the religion of Islam), then it is rejected [by Allah].” To sum things up, we can see that Amina Wadud is not only a deviant, but she is a disbelieving devil (like Satan) who we seek refuge with Allah from. Any Muslim who follows her follows a disbeliever into the Fire of Hell. Everything good and correct that was said is from Allah alone and everything evil and incorrect is from my own imperfect self. I ask Allah to forgive all true Muslims and guide us all to The Straight Path. Thank you for your time.

180 IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE ENTIRELY MERCIFUL, THE ESPECIALLY MERCIFUL. To Curious: First you must understand the true Islam in order to understand its rulings. Second, what goes on in the "Arab world" is not exactly Islam...it's culture. A culture which has deviated from the original implementation of the true Islam. It cannot be called "Islam" because it is not what Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) taught. One cannot look at the practices of so-called "Islamic" countries and state that Islam is corrupt; because not a single one of those countries are following the true Islamic teachings. To one who doesn't know what Islam truly is, it may appear that they are practicing Islam; however, the essence of its true message is missing in the practice. This is why you see such practices like high prices of dowry for their daughters (not "pimpism" as you described, I'll explain it to you). Q1: Is there a verse in Quran which prohibits the leadership of woman? Not to my knowledge; however, in the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) there is. First, you have to understand that as Muslims we follow both the Qur'an and the Sunnah (teachings and practices of Prophet Muhammad), we cannot follow one and reject the other. The reason for this is the numerous verses of the Qur'an that order us to obey the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH); and alos, in the sayings of The Prophet (PBUH) who said, "By Allah, there is nothing that comes out of this mouth except that it is revelation." Further, 'Aaisha (may Allah be pleased with her) said about her husband (PBUH), "He lives the Qur'an" meaning that its teachings are fully implemented by The Prophet (PBUH) in his life. So if a Muslim wants to understand the Qur'an, he/she must also study the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). To answer you question: Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said, "Any people who take a woman as their leader will never succeed." Q2: Is there a verse in Quran which prohibis woman going to prayers with men? No. However, in the teachings of Prophet Muhammd (PBUH) there is: he (PBUH) said, "The best row of the men's rows is the first row, and the best row of the women's rows is the last row." Thus, from this saying we know that women must pray behind men. Women are not prevented from going to the mosques to pray with men in congregation, however, they must stand behind the men's rows. Q3: Did Muhammad PBUH led prayers where women were present, was this tradition not followed at Mosques in Medina and Mecca until very recently. Yes, Muhammad (PBUH) did lead prayers where women were present; however, the women always prayed behind the men's rows. They NEVER prayed in mixed congregation where men and women stand next to eachother. In Makkah, during Hajj, you can see women mixed in with men; however, you will notice that women tend to stick together in their little congregations and men will try to distance themselves from the women's congregation. This is a mixing that cannot be avoided due to the situation. Islamic teachings say that if it is possible to separate the rows of men and women, then we MUST separate them. But in cases like Makkah, it is permissable due to the situation. Q4: Is this not true that Arabs want money to mary their daughter, a cultural issue? This is not cultural at all. In Islam, in order to marry a woman, a husband must provide a marriage dowry to the wife. This is a gift to the bride as described in the Qur'an: "And give the women [upon marriage] their [bridal] gifts graciously. But if they give up willingly to you anything of it, then take it in satisfaction and ease." (4:4) We are encouraged to be generous in this regard but we cannot go beyond our means. And this is proven in the hadith where a man goes to The Prophet (PBUH) asking him to allow him to marry a certain girl for a garment that he had on. The Prophet (PBUH) told him to go find something from his home or his family to give to the woman as dowry, even a "metal ring" as described in the hadith. The man goes and comes back with nothing saying, "I could not find anything, not even a metal ring." So The Prophet (PBUH) asked him how much of the Qur'an the man had memorized and allowed him to marry the woman using that part of the Qur'an he memorized as dowry. I have heard of this being practiced today even, however, the cases are rare because people have deviated from Islam. Those fathers who want rediculous sums of money for their daughters are not doing right, they are not implementing the true Islamic rulings concerning dowry. Q5: Should the Arab Pimpism of selling their daughters be considered Islam? No. It is far from Islam. I answered this in the previous question. Q6: Does Islam promotes black marketting of Women as sex slaves? Not at all. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Nonetheless, women hold a very high esteem in Islam. Islam protects the rights of women and gives them a highly respected role in society. They are the mothers of our future generations. They raise our children, MEN and women. Again, wherever these despicable practices of women being "sex slaves" occur in the "Islamic" world, it is clear deviation from the original teachings of Islam. I will add this though: in the West, this form of degradation of women occurs on a very regular bases. But no one says anything (except some feminists) because it is done in a highly indirect manner. Women are half-naked on advertising boards, movie posters, CD covers, book covers...everything, everywhere! But no one says anything because it is done in the name of marketing. "Sex Sells," right? We all have heard it and we all know it! I'm not even going to mention the role of pornography in Western culture and its influences on the rest of the world. Q7: Saudi(s) now have seperate prayer areas for Men and women in mosques. Are they planning to do the same at their Airports? Islam does not require us to separate men and women in public places such as an airport. However, men are required to accompany women in such places as to protect them from harm (not only physical but also in the sense of being looked at as "sex objects"). Think about this: when any attractive woman goes out in public by herself in America, how often would she be hit on? Now, if she goes out in public with her husband/boyfriend or any mature male escort how often would she be hit on? It's that simple. Q8: When is next Saudi Airport for woman only due? Only Allah knows what the future holds. I explained this in the previous question, though. Q9: Can a Woman drive a car, an aeroplane, can they lead in any wqy? Absolutely. Women can lead in any other way! They can be teachers, doctors, lawyers, and anything else. In Islam, men cannot prevent women from seeking knowledge in any way. Q10: Who was the leader of the War at Jamal, was it Ayesha w/o Muhammad PBUH? I have no knowledge of the war at Jamal, so I cannot speak on this matter. I hope I have made things a bit more clear for you. I would strongly advise you to read the Qur'an and also read the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and how he handled situations. We, as Muslims, are required to follow the example of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and take him as our role model. Our Muslim sisters are required to take the wives of The Prophet (PBUH) as their role models. Please read about them and how they practiced Islam and you'll see how beautiful this religion truly is. Islam is something strange to people today, even in the Muslim world a practicing Muslim will be looked as someone strange. But the truth will always remain, as Prophet Muhammad had said: "There will always be a group of my followers upon my teachings until The Day of Judgement." And there are, scattered here and there, a few. The majority of the Muslim population have deviated and that's why a practicing Muslim is a stranger even in an "Islamic" country. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said, "Islam started out as something strange, and it will be strange once again. How fortunate are those strangers!" Thank you for taking the time to read this. May Allah guide you to the truth and open your heart to accept Islam. Peace.

181 Hello all. I want to tell these people who say that if men pray behind women they will get distracted by the contour of her body, that this is strange. Because, this exactly what happens to me when I watch a man's back. In fact the most "turn on" thing about a man is his backside. I can almost see their genitalia (excuse my language, I mean their balls) hanging especially if they wear a transparent arabic Dishdasha!!!! So to say it is OK for a woman to stand behind a man and not OK for a man to stand behind a woman is a big big lie and you all know it! Regards.

182 Assalam o alykum wr wbkt ... shame on aminah wadud she did wrong and shame on thses ppl those suported her .. i want to ask from aminah wadud when u are going to do imamat in salat tu janaza and when u r going to take a dead body on your shoulder and when you are going to make a grave coz from first day of islam to today thses work also doing men ... not a single woman prophtess all were men so aminah when you are going to say that you are prophet i am waiing for all these stupid thing when u gonna do ..ALLAh and all farishat sending lanat on you miss aminah wadud insha ALLAH Ameen

183 yea yea yea. I wano c dat Amina do all dat shit dat men do. but u know, she cant. u gota hav ballz to do dat.y just pray that she bitches about. do it all

184 In response to Jihad, who writes in rapture from the Middle East on the blessing of being a Muslim woman and the curteous behavior of Muslim men... Like millions, I'm a woman born into a Muslim family, who has lived all her life in Muslim countries (Egypt, Oman, Tunisia, Sudan, Iran, Algeria, Somalia, to be precise). I regret to inform you, Jihad, that women are treated worse than rats in all the above countries, and I have no doubt in all the other Muslim countries also. I don't know how you managed to blind yourself to this fact that is obvious to even the most obtuse observer, and convince yourself that as a Muslim woman you are somehow better off. Why any woman would voluntarily convert to Islam is totally beyond me. Unless it is the desire expressed in your comment, to be dominated and reduced to an unthinking reproductive machine. I feel sorry for you and the other poor misguided women who will certainly regret in time the irrevocable decision they have taken to convert to Islam.

185 Thank you Mina for voicing the opinion of all of us Islamically oppressed women. The extremists have taken center stage and because of their vociferous and rabid attacks on anyone who dares oppsose their narrow-minded views, only their voices can be heard. I salute Dr. Amina Wadud's courage to stand up to these hypocrites. If only there were more like her around... If you don't like a woman leading prayer, don't attend. If you have a problem with seeing a woman's hair, don't look. Personally, I find muslim men offensive, small-minded, backward, and egocentric. Would I marry one? No. But that doesn't mean that I would get out there and shoot them. Islm is not your private property. You extremisits out there don't have a monopoly on Islam. Your opinions are only opinions. You are entitled to think what you want, wear a beard or veil or short trousers, if you so wish. And others are entitled to do otherwise, and go without all the advertising. And you can't say or do a thing about it. Amina Wadud lives in a free country, and not some repressive third world patriarchy in the desert. She lives in a place with democratic institutions and the rule of law, a place where women are not viewed as a separate sub-species. Since most of you in this long thread oppose her so vehemently, don't go to her lectures, don't read her books, and don't attend her prayers.

186 Thank you Mina and Sherine......you've said it all

187 WOW, This has not calmed down a bit since Thursday. Unfortunately I do not have time to read it all. I did have time to skim. I want to thank IINB first of all for being patient with me, I thank you brother. And I do believe in a creator, more than anything I do. When I go back and read everything you have addressed to me I will further continue this conversation. Or perhaps it would better (if you are willing of course) to continue it via email so we can put aside the surreal amount of hostility and negative energy on this message board. I assure you that I am not scared by your religion and having seen people in my own religion act similarly to how those that upset you, I do not hold the actions of the individual against the entirety of the people. Thank you for representing your people the way you have. My love goes out to you and those of you who had the intention of discussing this with me. All of you have a wonderful day today and I will post again after I have caught up with the conversation.

188 Okay, finished and I must say it was refreshing to read some women standing up for Amina in the end there. I think what is happening (as happened with Christianity) is that ORIGINALLY Islam was intended to be uplifting for women, but over time it became oppressive towards them because the general populous of men shunned their responsibility and forced the women to keep theirs. Once again I'm saying "generally" I do believe that people like IINB would most definately lower their eyes. I came to realize something important when I read the post by True Muslim Man. I cannot emphasize enough that I am not Muslim, but I teared up when I came to a startling actualization. I have been discussing this so much with you guys that I neglected to include it as a concern in my prayer. If it's one thing I've learned in my life, it's that I can get good conversation from people... but I can get great truths placed in my heart when I pray to God. The PLain Truth, wonderful post! And I am not questioning the teachings of the prophet. But I do need clarification. What was the context in which he stated that being lead by a woman leads to failure. IINB, I really have to thank you again because I have found your posts to be most helpful and though we may not agree on EVERYTHING I feel that if I was to meet you in real life, outside of the internet, we would end up being good friends. I am seeking the truth as hard as possible, but my heart is teling me not to accept that women can't lead prayer in Islam as a truth... yet. Which is why I would like to continue this conversation elsewhere where we can discuss this point for point. That way, even if in the end we agree to disagree... we can share our ideals with one another and learn that way. To answer your question of Why I believe in God... I just do. Everyone, we may not be of the same religion but I believe we are all decendants, religiously, of Abraham and we are all related by blood if we go back far enough. We are brothers and sisters and though this may not directly effect our OWN religion, it effects our brothers and sisters and because of this we should pray, regardless, about this issue. I know Dr. Wadud and I respect her. I know she say's she is a Muslim and I know she believes she is a Muslim and I know she knows more about Islam than I will ever know. I don't suggest we say she is wrong or right, because that is not our decision to make. I DO suggest that we pray that God's will be done. Not only is that the proper thing to do, but I feel justified in saying that is what she would want us to do as well, as a believer.

189 Someone asked about why the ME countries are backwards...well how aren't they. THey oppress their women & the majority of the people. How can you say its not backwards w/ all the restrictions imposed by the people? No free speech, no freedom of religion, torture people that speak out against the gvt, justify violent actions/reactions w/ Qur'anic verses? As for your oil comment, the areas that have oil are protected right now...I wonder how grand the me will be when the alternative energy or the hydrogen car become affordable...the answer is that the me will go back to being a backwards ass sandbox w/ a bunch of idiots running around. Alex, based on your above post, i have tos ay that i think you are an idiot. You are essentially assuming to believe that you don't believe she's a Muslim w/out saying it. Are you a scholar to judge someone's muslimness? Is anyone on here qualified? Definately not. The biggest problem that i see w/ religion is that it's left up to human interpretation...You can say that Islam isn't, but even you know thats not a lie. Most of you say that Dr. Wadud's leading prayer is against the Quran, yet nobody can find a specific verse that prohibits it.. B/c women really havne't led prayer you assume that it is against the quran...how odd, you are using INTERPRETATION of history & examples to justify your hatred & angry feelings toward her. I'll be waiting to see if someone actually comes up w/ a valid response..by valid i mean of substance & not your dribble about how i dont know what i'm talking about......

190 Actually, i was drunk when i posted last time. I am truly very sorry to all of you who are against Dr. Wadud. I dont really have any knowledge of religion. I dropped out of middle school, and havent gone back since. So you know where I am coming from. as far as ME go, even if i had to bow down to them, i would. They are running our country and helping rednecks like me get gas for my pickup truck. Now I know some of you will make fun of me by calling me white trash. inbreed (tell you its fun though, you need not to go anywhere, you can have all the pleasures in your household) but thats the way God made me. once again, I am extremely sorry guys. However, my thoughts about Alex cannot be changed. He IS an idiot!

191 Yes I know all of you are wondering how my views are changed, and why am I sucking up to IINB. The matter of fact is, in case you never heard, its a wise saying that "If you can not defeat the enemy, be with the enemy". Sucking up doesnt hurt anyone, and i m really impressed by IINB, the way he tried to explain all this to me, and i was acting like an idiot, because I have too much on my mind, and to be honest, i try to do things that i have no clue about. That isnt a bad thing for me. I am married, and I write papers. i hadnt had a chance to come back here, but now it seems that i cannot present any material to support my ideas. therefore, i must say that IINB has forced me to bow down to him. I spread love, not hate, because thats all i have to give.I love men and women equally, and would love to meet IINB in a park.

192 CANT BELIEVE you wimps are still debating on that. Get a goddamn life, and read newspaper, try to keep up with everyone. u morons are still wasting time here. HAHAHAHA! no wonder you guys get ur asses kicked, cuz u like to stay where you started!popester died, tsunami struck back, but u weisels r stuck here. FAGS!

193 Dear You're All Idiots, Someone asked about why the ME countries are backwards...well how aren't they. THey oppress their women & the majority of the people. How can you say its not backwards w/ all the restrictions imposed by the people? No free speech, no freedom of religion, torture people that speak out against the gvt, justify violent actions/reactions w/ Qur'anic verses? I'm under the impression that you have never been to the middle east and have formulated the majority of your views based on American forms of media... probably fox news. Your reaction to the Middle Eastern lifestyle is a simpleton's reaction to not having been brought up within said lifestyle. To them I bet it seems normal. I agree that freedom of speech and religion should be universal, but my opinions are just that, my opinions and if they are cool with no freedom of speech or religion (if those are truly not allowed) then I'm cool with it as well. And as far as them justifying violence with Qu'ranic verses, I heard Fatty McFaldwell doing the exact same thing with the Bible for our preemptive war on Iraq. So misusing religious text is not indicative ONLY to the Middle East. I know for a fact that they look at the US and think the exact same things... understandably so. Alex, based on your above post, i have tos ay that i think you are an idiot. Well...you certainly didn't have to... It's already been established that I am white-trash and chicken headed, now I can add idiot to that running description...but by all means go on... You are essentially assuming to believe that you don't believe she's a Muslim w/out saying it. I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean... "to assume to believe that I don't believe"... that doesn't even make sense. But what I was saying (because I am a student of Dr. Wadud and I do know her if only as a professor) is that I do believe she is a Muslim not just because she says so, but because she believes she is... Which was me refuting the comment that she was not Muslim even though she said she was that was made earlier in a post you probably didn't read. She isn't just saying she is a Muslim she is a true believer and doesn't deserve to have her status as a Muslim downplayed based on the beliefs of others. I experience this same phenomenon often being a Gnostic. I believe I'm a Christian, but because the church sees me as a heretic for my beliefs many would say I am not. But it is neither here nor there because it is ultimately God that makes those judgement calls, not us." Are you a scholar to judge someone's muslimness? Is anyone on here qualified? Definately not. That's what I was saying, there is no such thing as a qualification for judging someone's spirituality. No scholar can do that. That is left up to the individual and God. The biggest problem that i see w/ religion is that it's left up to human interpretation...You can say that Islam isn't, but even you know thats not a lie. The biggest problem behind religion is that it is bent to the will of those who benefit from it's control. Then that control is used to keep people from truly exploring their religion. But I also feel that for every few people that stop thinking due to religion there is at least one who thinks beyond what they would have if they hadn't been exposed to religion in the first place. Most of you say that Dr. Wadud's leading prayer is against the Quran, yet nobody can find a specific verse that prohibits it.. B/c women really havne't led prayer you assume that it is against the quran...how odd, you are using INTERPRETATION of history & examples to justify your hatred & angry feelings toward her. I'll be waiting to see if someone actually comes up w/ a valid response..by valid i mean of substance & not your dribble about how i dont know what i'm talking about...... We've discussed this a while back. It doesn't say in the Qu'ran that women can't lead prayer. And you're right, they just haven't up until now. The prophet might have forbidden it though. I would like to know the context of his words though. And the prophet brings the word of God. I'm would support Dr. Wadud totally on this based solely on the fact that I know religions have been patriarchially ruled and interpreted since the beggining. And if there is a true equality between men and women then responsibilities (outside of physical ones... having babies, standing up to urinate etc.) should be the same. But I also support her because of the amount of knowledge and scriptural study I know she has done in her life time. People on this message board talk about "knowing the Qu'ran and Islam"... In a debate between Dr. Wadud and anyone here I would still place my bet on Dr. Wadud. Also there is a passage where a woman leads a prayer, but it sounds as if it is being attributed to circumstance, when the Qu'ran did not specify that to be the case. You might want to go back and read all 400 posts that have been posted in the past couple of weeks just to brush up on previous conversation. Or a better idea would be for you to go away. Not because you don't know what you're talking about... but you don't care to know what you're talking about."

194 HAHAHAHAHA That is Rich... To whoever posted as me, thanks... that made me laugh. Look I still support Dr. Wadud, my feelings have not changed, but I came here with the intention of increasing my basic knowledge of Islam and the only person who seemed vaguely interested in doing that was IINB. Since my first post I was recieved with anger and hostility. IINB was the first person to show the compassion that I would expect from a fellow human. This is going to be my last post because that is the second time someone has stolen my identity. So if that is how you wanted to win... you've won. Hope Allah is as proud about that as you are.

195 Alex, If ever you are tempted to return to this page, which seems unfortunately to be populated mostly by illiterates, allow me to thank you for your many insigtful and thoughtful contributions. Your analyses and attempts to understand Islam are the reflection of an open mind -- quite the opposite of the obscurantist rantings of the likes of "kkk", "Samara", "You are all idiots", et al. Now you understand the mentality Muslim women the world over have to confront on a daily basis. The oppression of women -- and men, for that matter, has been justified repeatedly by Islamic fundamentalists and extremists through using references in the Quran and Sunna. You will find that many of the paragraphs they point to are either 1) Nonexistent; 2) Of questionable authenticity; or 3) Irrelevant to the context/subject. Their power to impose their views is derived from their tightly knit solidarity, thier aggressivity, and their readiness to use force (ranging from social ostracism to death) to impose their views. Most Muslims are peaceful, lawabiding people, living in poverty and hardship. Their main concern is earning their living honorably and caring for their families. They are not prepared, neither intellectually nor economically, to enter into a potentially deathly struggle against an extremist, and therefore choose the path of least resistance: compliance. If they could choose, and unfortunately they cannot, the majority of Muslims would opt to live in peace with other communities, and together enjoy the fruits of prosperity of their nations. But government corruption and oppression, backed and legitimized by extremist ideology, will not allow it.

196 In the name of Allah, The Entirely Merciful, The Especially Merciful. To Mina and Sherine: It saddens me when people judge the religion of Islam directly based on the current affairs and practices of "Muslims" in the Middle East. To do this, as you both are seemingly doing, would be a grave mistake. What people are living in the Middle East is NOT, I repeat, NOT Islam! Yes, they call themselves "Muslims," but sadly the masses have deviated from the true meaning and practice of Islam. They have deviated from the way Islam should be lived, the way it was meant to be lived. This is why our sisters (and in all honesty, brothers also) are being oppressed in those countries. What people are living is in fact CULTURE with a few practices rooted in Islam, but they are NOT living Islam. The problem with us Muslims is we don't have knowledge. We have no knowledge of our own religion, yet we call ourselves "Muslim." What does the word "Muslim" mean??? Do you know??? And to top things off, the gov'ts' rule is evil and does little or nothing to help Islam. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was sent to all of mankind to deliver a clear and complete message. COMPLETE! Meaning it has no holes in it, no flaws, no room for improvement, no room for addition, and no room for any sort of modifications modernists like Wadud would like to make to it. This belief is a basic conviction in the heart of any true Muslim. To say otherwise is to speak "kufr" (disbelief). The Qur'an is the word of God as revealed to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), this is what Muslims believe. Yet, we have no idea what God is telling us in this Qur'an. If we so-called "Muslims" believe in the Qur'an as a message revealed to mankind why are we not reading it??? This is The One, and only One, God speaking to US!!! Do we know what He is telling us?? Do we have any clue?? If I tell you that Michael Jackson, Michael Jordan, Britney Spears, Justin Timberlake, 50 Cent, Eminem, George W. Bush, Bill Clinton or any other famous person wrote you a letter...directly to YOU, you wouldn't put that letter down for a second. You would read it over and over and over again. Then why, when I say (and we claim that we believe), that God Himself has revealed a message to us...why are we so neglectful of it??? This is GOD, He Who created us! Who sustains us! He Who created all existence and is continuously sustaining it! Why are we not reading what He is trying to tell us? You will go to Him when you die; whether you like it or not, whether you believe it or not, you WILL go to Him! Doesn't His message deserve a little bit of attention? If I told you that you were going to meet your favorite actor/actress (think about it) you would spend every little free minute you have up until that meeting to prepare yourself for it. If this actor/actress, in his/her letter to you, gave you specific instructions on what you should do before you go to meet him/her, you would follow his/her instructions to the most intricate detail. Then what about God, when He tells you in His message how to prepare yourself for the meeting with your Lord. What have you done to prepare yourself? If you have any doubt at all about any part of the Qur'an or deny the verses of the Qur'an, then please (and I ask you with deep sincerity and humbleness) read the post I made on April 2 (I have another post on Apr 3 right after the Apr 2 post; read that too if you want to have some questions answered regarding women). It'll clear things up a bit, insha'Allah. If you believe in every word of the Qur'an, then read it! You owe it to yourself! After all, it's only God speaking to YOU! May Allah (The Exalted and All-Mighty) guide us all to the truth and help us submit. Ameen. My sincere apologies if I have offended you in anyway, as this was not my intention. My intention is simply to get the plain truth across. Anything good and correct I have said is from Allah and anything evil or incorrect I have said is from my own imperfections. And I ask Allah to forgive me.

197 In the name of Allah, The Entirely Merciful, The Especially Merciful. To Alex: When Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said, "Any people who take a woman as their leader will never succeed" it was when a king/leader of some nation (I forgot who and where) died and his daughter took over as the leader of that nation. He made this statement to his companions. This is obviously speaking about women leading a nation, not in prayer so you would probably still side with Wadud. Therefore, I will try and clarify a bit more as to why women cannot lead prayers. The Qur'an was revealed in the Arabic tongue. Allah says in the Qur'an that He made it an Arabic Qur'an so that it would be clear and more precise. Taking this into consideration, I will explain to you the situation of men and women using some basic grammer of the Arabic language. In the Arabic language when one makes reference to a group of men, they use to masculine form of "they/them" (in Arabic, of course) to refer to that group of men. Similarly, when one makes reference to a group of women, they use the feminine form of "they/them" to refer to the group of women. However, when making reference to a mixed group of men and women the masculine form is always used. This is the case no matter what the ratio of men to women may be, even if it be a million women and only one man. So, no matter how many women in the group, the femine form cannot account for the lone male; thus, the masculine form is used. This is the nature of the Arabic language and God's will. Further, we can say that a woman leading prayers cannot account for the men standing behind her. To answer this issue religiously: The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said, "The best rows of the men's rows is the first one; the best rows of the women's rows is the last one." Think about this for a moment. If a woman is leading the prayer with men behind her, is she in the best row? Further, this saying of The Prophet (PBUH) informs us that rows should be segragated with women praying behind men because the best rows are the last ones for women. Naturally, if men want to pray in the best rows they would try to be in the first row or the row closest to it. Similarly, if women want to be in the best rows they would try to pray in the farthest row back. Other narrations from the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and his companions clearly indicate that men and women prayed separately. If you like I will gladly tell you what I know from these narrations. Finally, the issue of women leading prayers in Islam would clearly be a newly invented matter, as we all know it was never done before. So if people adopt this idea, it would be an innovation. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said, "Anyone who makes any addition to this matter of ours (the religion) it is rejected [by Allah]." Further, he said (PBUH), "The most evil of all affairs is newly invented ones [in religion]; every newly invented matter is an innovation, all innovation leads to misguidance, and all misguidance leads to the Hellfire." Now, clearly what Amina Wadud is doing is a newly invented matter in Islam. There is nothing in the Qur'an or the Sunnah that says a woman has ever lead prayer with men behind her. Never! Therefore, this is an innovation; and thus, misguidance which leads to Hell. As far as Amina Wadud's other views are concerned, I would strongly suggest you read the post I made on April 2 to really clear things up for you. I appreciate your sincerity and your honesty throughout this whole matter. There aren't too many non-Muslims who can come out and say they are wrong when they see the truth in something. And as we can see, there aren't too many Muslims with those qualities either (again, a result of deviation from true Islamic teachings because a Muslim knows that Allah knows what is in one's heart and will be judged for what he/she says and does). I pray that God opens your heart to the truth and guides you. Ameen.

198 Excerps from A Woman's Reflection on Leading Prayer by Yasmin Mogahed: (This is a well written passage that makes me realised there are still women in US whom can think rationally and understand the creation of mankind and the Justice of Allah the most Forgiving and most Merciful) On March 18, 2005 Amina Wadud led the first female-led Jumuah (Friday) prayer. On that day women took a huge step towards being more like men. But, did we come closer to actualizing our God-given liberation? I don't think so. What we so often forget is that God has honored the woman by giving her value in relation to God—not in relation to men. But as western feminism erases God from the scene, there is no standard left—but men. As a result the western feminist is forced to find her value in relation to a man. And in so doing she has accepted a faulty assumption. She has accepted that man is the standard, and thus a woman can never be a full human being until she becomes just like a man—the standard. When a man cut his hair short, she wanted to cut her hair short. When a man joined the army, she wanted to join the army. She wanted these things for no other reason than because the "standard" had it. What she didn't recognize was that God dignifies both men and women in their distinctiveness--not their sameness. And on March 18, Muslim women made the very same mistake. For 1400 years there has been a consensus of the scholars that men are to lead prayer. As a Muslim woman, why does this matter? The one who leads prayer is not spiritually superior in any way. Something is not better just because a man does it. And leading prayer is not better, just because it's leading. Had it been the role of women or had it been more divine, why wouldn't the Prophet have asked Ayesha or Khadija, or Fatima—the greatest women of all time—to lead? These women were promised heaven—and yet they never lead prayer. But now for the first time in 1400 years, we look at a man leading prayer and we think, "That's not fair." We think so although God has given no special privilege to the one who leads. The imam is no higher in the eyes of God than the one who prays behind. On the other hand, only a woman can be a mother. And God has given special privilege to a mother. The Prophet taught us that heaven lies at the feet of mothers. But no matter what a man does he can never be a mother. So why is that not unfair? When asked who is most deserving of our kind treatment? The Prophet replied `your mother' three times before saying `your father' only once. Isn't that sexist? No matter what a man does he will never be able to have the status of a mother. And yet even when God honors us with something uniquely feminine, we are too busy trying to find our worth in reference to men, to value it—or even notice. We too have accepted men as the standard; so anything uniquely feminine is, by definition, inferior. Being sensitive is an insult, becoming a mother—a degradation. In the battle between stoic rationality (considered masculine) and self-less compassion (considered feminine), rationality reigns supreme. As soon as we accept that everything a man has and does is better, all that follows is just a knee jerk reaction: if men have it—we want it too. If men pray in the front rows, we assume this is better, so we want to pray in the front rows too. If men lead prayer, we assume the imam is closer to God, so we want to lead prayer too. Somewhere along the line we've accepted the notion that having a position of worldly leadership is some indication of one's position with God. A Muslim woman does not need to degrade herself in this way. She has God as a standard. She has God to give her value; she doesn't need a man. In fact, in our crusade to follow men, we, as women, never even stopped to examine the possibility that what we have is better for us. In some cases we even gave up what was higher only to be like men. Fifty years ago, society told us that men were superior because they left the home to work in factories. We were mothers. And yet, we were told that it was women's liberation to abandon the raising of another human being in order to work on a machine. We accepted that working in a factory was superior to raising the foundation of society—just because a man did it. Then after working, we were expected to be superhuman—the perfect mother, the perfect wife, the perfect homemaker—and have the perfect career. And while there is nothing wrong, by definition, with a woman having a career, we soon came to realize what we had sacrificed by blindly mimicking men. We watched as our children became strangers and soon recognized the privilege we'd given up. And so only now—given the choice—women in the West are choosing to stay home to raise their children. According to the United States Department of Agriculture, only 31 percent of mothers with babies, and 18 percent of mothers with two or more children, are working full- time. And of those working mothers, a survey conducted by Parenting Magazine in 2000, found that 93% of them say they would rather be home with their kids, but are compelled to work due to 'financial obligations'. These `obligations' are imposed on women by the gender sameness of the modern West, and removed from women by the gender distinctiveness of Islam. It took women in the West almost a century of experimentation to realize a privilege given to Muslim women 1400 years ago. Given my privilege as a woman, I only degrade myself by trying to be something I'm not--and in all honesty--don't want to be: a man. As women, we will never reach true liberation until we stop trying to mimic men, and value the beauty in our own God-given distinctiveness. If given a choice between stoic justice and compassion, I choose compassion. And if given a choice between worldly leadership and heaven at my feet—I choose heaven.

199 Hope u come back to NYC Amina Retardud

200 KKK, May Allah swt unite our hearts and allow each and everyone of us to invite people to justice, peace and morality which is our deen. If not in this duniya than lets hope to meet in jannah and give peace to one another. Our goal should be one and that is to please Allah, to serve Allah and strive hard in His cause. A very beautiful verse in the Qur'an came into my heart and that is Surah AS-SAFF verse 10 and 11 where Allah swt says that shall I not tell you something of trade which can save us from the torment of hellfire, that is to believe in Allah and His Prophet and strive hard with our wealth and lives. I am not quoting exact words but this is the verse says. Subhan-allah, do you think after reading this verse one can actually think of something opposite. Allah we need to do to is to strive hard for Allah. May Allah make us his real servants, ameen. I really appreciate yoour help and I ask Allah to give you the best of this life and hereafter and I ask Allah to make us only love Him, ameen. Please don't say I am a devoted muslim for I fear the evil will try to make me arrogantover it. Allah huma rabbigfirli wasallam u'ala'kum brother

201 Alex, May the Creator open for you the doors of light,the truth. Anything that can be seen is a light and anything that cannot be seen clearly is darkness. Reading what you have written above made me smile. With all respect to you, I have to also respect in what you believe for Islam teaches me to respect others belief. You know what I actually believe is that you are a Muslim inside but the only thing you are missing is the Shahada and some self duties. May Allah guide you and your family and May you and your family live in this life and in hereafter in peace, ameen. I pray to the creator for you because what you are seeking for, you will find it sooner or later. You just have to be patient and keep crying to the Creator. It is your heart Alex and nothing else. Whatever is in your heart will truly show one day. Believe me I have met people like you and I am hurt inside becuase I want you and all others to know the truth and I want you to enter paradise with your families. ameen. Amina wadud is not a topic we should be discussing all the times because at this moment you should realize your responsibility as a human being. If your heart is in doubt than I suggest that you turn to the Creator and ask Him to show you what the truth is. Beleive me you will see it but be patient. It's my personal experience. Any time I have an issue in life I return it to the Creator for I know He is the one who created me and He knows what I seek and He can only help me in my quest. Women can lead prayer but not mix prayer alex because Muslims are to only follow the three generations. I gave you the saying of the Prophet above so please read it again and ask amina wadud about it whenever you get the chance to meet her. After the Three generations, anything new in this religion is not to be followed no matter how logic it sounds. Islam is not like any other religion where anyone can come up with something new in this religion becasue It would never be acceptable and because it would automatically create divison between people. I have no problem conversating via e-mail. Insha-allah soon you will hear from me and you'll be surprised about something. Make sure you check your mail alex. overall, I know the conditions of my people and I fear it will destroy them. I think we are much civilized and that we must learn to respect one another in order to gain the same respect back. My message is read the book "men around the Messenger" by Khalid Muhammad Khalid. And if this book does not change anyone than something is wrong in the heart. fi amanillah

202 To the "Muslim girl" Shame on u, u dirty hoe, u call urself a "muslim" yet in your comment you describe male genitals, when you pray behind a man in mosque....Astaghfirullah. i c this is all that goes in in your filthy mind. If i was to c you i would beat the shit outta u u dirty prostitute

203 Dear Anon, Only God may forgive you for calling me "Dirty Prostitute"; you know that it is a big sin to say that to a woman without proving that she is!!! Regarding my post: you obviously did not understand a word I said. I said there is no difference in my opinioun whether a man stands (praying) behind a woman or a woman stands behind a man. Although no one has shown us a single "Aya" or "Hadeeth" that say women may pray behind men but men should not pray behind women, if there is, then my only explanation would be that god knows that women are superior to men by having the ability to control their desires and focus on the prayer, but men could not do that. Which I find degrading to man!!

204 Muslim Girl, If you call yourself a Muslim than follow what Qur'an says and the Sunnah. DO NOT COME UP WITH YOUR OWN INVENTION IN THIS DEEN! One thing I don't understand is why don't you do yourself a favor by asking any scholar or start searching for it yourself. Why do you depend on others to show you an ayah. Are you that lazy or arrogant infront of Allah that you cannot do this much for your own knowledge. Men are not superior over women and vise versa. Please sister do not act like the jews and Christians who think they know but in fact they do not know. Above all they refuse to know. That is why I found something good in our Brother Alex because he is a seeker and seeks for the truth. He is not a Muslims but does his own research. And we Muslims cannot even do that. Please before you say something go and research. Our Prophet pbuh in his last sermon said that he is leaving two sources of guidance behind for us and if we hold them tight, than we will not be misguided but if we leave them, we shall be misguided. I think you should go back and read my post that I posted for Alex. It will also be helpful for you and will increase you in knowledge insha-allah. salaam alaikum

205 WHAT? Alex did his own research? what is wrong with you? He kept asking those arrogant questions which demonstrate his laziness as well.he did not research for shit! ignoranceisnotbliss whoever you are, dont give us your scholarly bullshit. whose side are you on? either support Alex, or support our deen ok?

206 you are here to support muslims, not Alex. you are stereotyping all muslims by calling us lazy and that we dont do research? here is a tip. guide that person, show him or her some verses and hadith, instead of calling him a lazy muslim. you cant call any of your muslims brother or sister lazy, who do you think you are a goddamn scholar? stop making people of your and my religion bad, and help THEM instead of showing love to nonbelievers. Be scared of hellfire goddamnit!

207 and if you, and some other muslims on this page who think they can prove they are smart by making their own brothers and sisters look bad, we dont need you. we need someone like "the plain truth", or KKK, or the guy with 1st post on this page cozz they can come strong and show these nonbelievers that muslims arent weak! ignoranceisnotbliss, you are soft, pathetic, diplomatic , and a weak muslim!

208 Dear Toebucks, you have said it all....THANK YOU, 'cause I trully did my research and still do. I am not lazy!!! I'm doing my best. And for the rest of you, may god bless you and show you the right path!!

209 In the name of Allah, The Entirely Merciful, The Especially Merciful. To "Muslim Girl:" Why do u support a woman who is obviously a kafir? She openly rejects rulings in the Qur'an while Allah says in the Qur'an that anyone who rejects His verses is a kafir. As a "Muslim girl," don't you believe that every word of the Qur'an is Allah's words??? So when Allah says that anyone who rejects His verses is a kafir, and Wadud clearly does, why do you side with her? You must understand that if you side with a kafir and reject Allah's Verses, you become a kafir too! Allah also says that in the Qur'an. And, she is tryin to change the religion of Islam while Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said that anyone who makes any additions or modifications to the religion it will be reject by Allah. Allah says in the Qur'an that Islam is complete and cannot be changed, and that anyone who tries to change it has strayed into misguidance. Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said that all newly invented matters are innovations that lead to Hellfire. Amina Wadud is full of innovative ideas in Islam. Women leading prayer is an innovation in itself. It never ocurred during The Prophet's (SAW) time and it was not authorized by him, therefore this is a newly invented matter. Think about it! What is "the right path" to you? Is it the same path that we, as Muslims, ask Allah (SWT) to guide us to over 17 times a day (in our prayers)??? Is it that same path? Or is your "right path" the path that Amina Wadud has recently came up with? Think about it! May Allah (The Exalted and All-Mighty) guide you in As-Siraatal-Mustaqeem (The Straight Path)

210 where in Islam does it say that is okay to take another's life? Threatening or hurting Amina Wadud wont stop other woman from doing what she did. What makes any of you who threaten to hurt her or say rude remarks to her. Some people talk about "looking at women as they pray and checking them out". well, then..shame on you for not believing in God enough to be focusing in on Him as you pray. it is your faults for being distracted and as you pray to God you shouldnt be distracted by those around you. Prayer is a personal thing between you and God. I pray that Amina Wadud will carry on with her life and that she will always be safe.. Who are you to judge her? Who are you to say what she is doing is wrong?

211 whoa hold on a second muslim girl. i m only criticizing muslims who make other muslims look bad by calling them lazy, and u are a muslim, and i hope u stay a muslim. i aint takin amina wadud's side. i m still on KKK and "the plain truth"'s side. i know thats the issue, and i m against amina wadud. but i wouldnt call u lazy or anything. this is a friggin debate about some religious issue, not someone's characteristics.so people better keep it that way or should leave this forum, cuz they dont kno true meaning of debate. like that person who called you a prostitute.

212 Call me a homo, call me a retard, call me anything. but please, leave my amina wadud alone. i have had a crush on her since i was 10. i m 11 now, and i still have a thing for her. ok?

213 Wow!!! Am I that famous now? Many thanks to my supporters, and shame on you who have gone far in judging me and calling me ugly names. However, I forgive you.

214 Amina, Having followed the polemics surrounding your leading of prayers, I would like to praise the courage, honesty, and audacity you have shown in doing what you believe to be right and in standing up to your detractors. Please do not be cowed into submission, as we have been here in the Arab countries, through education and upbringing. It is now clear that if change is to come to Islam, it will only come from the west. It will be non-Arab Muslims who will lead the reformation of Islam, and Arab Muslims are going to find this very hard to accept. It is about time for someone to be pushing the envelope, and it's not surprising that it would be people who come from a Western culture of inquiry and rational analysis. Warm wishes for your continued success, and to all the obscene contributers above I say TOZ!!

215 And Amina, I am sorry. If you paid me a little more money, I would praise you more. But that check that you mailed me is nothing against my expenses. I now spend 3 dollars and but All American ciggarettes instead of New Ports. I m soo broke, can you please Send me some more? I take travelers checks too!

216 Dear whoever used my name, HAHAHAHA, you will never learn, will you?! Using other people's names (see above posting) to send your nonsense only reinforces our belief in your (and by this I mean all rabid muslim conservatives out there) inherent idiocy. Since you have nothing of substance to say, evidenced by your silence (apart from the last fake message under my name), we can only deduce that your positions and opinions are baseless and void. It is obvious that you have no analytic abilities whatsoever, to say nothing of linguistic prowess. Find a dictionary and try to decipher what that means! Mina

217 Assalam all, i have just finished reading the above comments and all i can say is thanku! Thanks to amina wudud and all the comments from the none-believers on this forum, All you have done is reminded me of the corruption and evil in the world, and makes my beliefs firmer in Allah and islam. I will never be led astray with the will of Allah and inshAllah i pray that all muslims are steadfast in their faith, from those that seek to deviate from the right path. May Allah forgive Amina and put her on the straight path. ameen

218 And if you are having difficulties finding the meaning of these words that I just learned today, just email me. I will send you the dictionary I use everyday to understand the everyday conversations. Its not like I have alot to say, since I was having a hard time putting sentences together. Same thing happened with my parents. They couldnt understand each other, and I am the result of that misunderstanding. May allah forgive me for cheating on my SATs. Ameen!

219 Mina, maybe you should find a Quran and try reading that.

220 Toebucks, You talk to me when you have adabs. I don't like to talk to those who call themselves Muslims but thier language is ugly like the disbelievers. Yes, you can be a Muslim but by name only. Why don't you show a true sprit of a believer by using a language full of manners. If I said something good about Alex should not hurt you because we should appreciate the good qualities even of a non-muslim. unless otherwise you are so jealous that you couldn't take what I said... any way, think about what i said!

221 HAHAHAHAHA2: Sorry Fake Mina: your peurility is only exceeded by your mediocrity! Why not try posting under your true identity? Too intimidated perhaps? Next time, find someone to check your text before exposing yourself needlessly to more ridicule. Signed Mina (not the fake SAT-obsessed, semi-literate teenager posting under my name as she/he lacks the intellect to use her/his own)

222 Post script: Since the only ploys you religious fanatics can resort to are: 1. Stealing (condoned by the Quran, apparently in this case!) other people's identities, 2. Lying (also condoned, exceptionally!), and 3. Cheating, then sorry, this is going to be my last contribution. What seemed at first to be a possibly interesting debate has boiled down to your usual tactics that we all know so well: "When you can't beat them honestly, lie, cheat, steal, and defame until you win". Ameen if that is the Islam that you know. You deserve what you are getting... Mina (the real one and not that illiterate teenager)

223 U SAD BUNCH! GET A LIFE ALL OF U! YOU GUYS ARE DEPRESSING.

224 I think Mina needs to stop all this Drama, by posting something and then faking the fake Mina to get attention. Its good to see you wont post anymore.

225 Anon, Welcome to the reality of Muslims. Do you not see the manners of our muslims and thier actions are subhan-allah. It is very rather sad!

226 It is a pity that we will not be seeing any more contributions from the real Mina -- she was one of the few contributers with real substance, and her departure has impoverished this debate. Don't think that by silencing one voice you are silencing all. By the way, those of you with the ability to think didactically (certainly not IINB, amongst others)will have discerned the difference in style and syntax between the 2 posting as "Mina". Your assumption that all would use your infantile strategies is surely pathetic... Goodbye and good thing this is fizzling out for lack of viable debating partners

227 IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE ENTIRELY MERCIFUL, THE ESPECIALLY MERCIFUL. Sherine and other Wadud supporters: It seems that the lack of viable debate is from your side. I have yet to read a logical argument from anyone who supports Amina Wadud. The only one in whom I saw any kind of sincerity for finding the truth was Alex. As for the rest of you, your cases are backed up by nothing but your own assumptions. Assumption is inadequate in supporting yourselves in this type of debate. Give us some proof! I am ready to debate with any one of you (with the help of Allah, The Most Merciful). The Truth will never surrender to falsehood. Present your arguments if you feel so strongly about them.

228 hmm... Sherine sounds ALOT like "Mina". u gotta stop it!

229 hmmmmm ..... (and a further deeper hmmmm) rxt sounds alot more like THE PLAIN TRUTH!!!! You all gotta stop this!! I am confused here

230 hmm......and Blah Blahdy Blah tries to sound alot like me. dunno y r u confused. its not rocket science.

231

232 Dr. Wadud, I am a young Muslim girl who just recently starting appreciating Islam for what it really is and what it really means. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing your intellect and your beliefs. You are carving a very clear and wonderful path for young Muslim women to follow. I really think that because of you and what you did people will begin to really see Islam as a beautiful religion and a very equal religion. You are an inspiration to me and to fellow Muslims everywhere. I just want to let you know. I go to a small all female high Catholic high school in the Chicago area, and we have to do a project on a strong fearless person who is an inspiration to us and to the world. Well, I picked you because to me you are one of the most fearless and most wonderful people I have ever heard of. I cant say that enough!! I hope Allah blesses you with future roads you will cross. Thank you! Samantha Khalil

233 Samantha, Nobody here gives a shit abt what u think. the debate is OVER!

234 I am sorry to hear these arguments. Wadud, you have arise a "Fitnah" which Death is the penalty...

235 Yes Dr. Rde people do care because whether you like it or not, I'm an educated young Muslim woman and guess what! There are many, many more like me, hate it or love it, its happening. We are the future and when you're gone your words will mean nothing.

236 "...whether you like it or not, I'm an educated young Muslim woman..." "I am a young Muslim girl who just recently starting appreciating Islam for what it really is and what it really means... I go to a small all female high Catholic high school in the Chicago area..." Samantha Khalil: You're educated, huh? "...who just recently starting appreciating Islam..." Nice grammer for an educated girl! Oh...you're a "Muslim" too??? "Muslim girl...I go to a small...Catholic high school..." ??? HUH??? Am I the only one seeing something wrong here?

237 SAMANTHA, wun moor thing. wen u ask a kweschin like: "I'm an educated young Muslim woman and guess what!" their shuudnt be an eks-clamashin mark at the end uv tha sentinse, it shud be a kweshchin mark. Rite? becuz ur asking a qweshchin, rite? at leest thatz wut my teecher told me in hi skool. but then ugan, ur the wun hooz edukated so hoo am i to qorrekt u. Oh, and one more thing: don't speak for your "fellow Muslims everywhere" because we have minds of our own and we understand our religion enough to differentiate between truth and falsehood. We know what it means to be a Muslim. We don't need you or Amina to tell us.

238 hahaha. talk about now. ur words dont mean nothing "now" samantha. even this Spelling-Pee ejukated idiot is making fun of u. everybody knows Amina-Voided is wrong, and u stilll argue for her. creeeeepster!

239 i m "recently starting" to think that Amina Wadud is a "big blunder". i will go "more higher" and "at on" the "level stage". that Samantha is "on and in".and think and make thoughts that how is are a muslim catholic girl who goes to a church that makes her a "more better". very "goodly well" literately "educated". MUSLIM?

240 dr.rde, The idiots are those who don't recognize who is on whose side. And your most recent post indicates that you're no more "ejukated" than Samantha. Seek Allah's help and guidance because he whom Allah guides to a straight path, there is no one who can lead him astray. And he whom Allah allows to stray, there is no one who can guide him.

241 kunfuzed, the idiots are those who dont clarify whose side they r on and "konfuze" others. and ur screen name indicates that u arent educated at all. seek allah's help, as well as buy a dictionary.

242 Assalamualaikum ppl! Wow. Took me a good part of like 2 hours to get through the whole list. The discussion on whether Amina Wadud did right or wrong really took off. From the posts the I have read, I have found that there are a few 'Muslims' that say they are, but act as though they are not, I have also found those whom are quite enlightened, which I shall not mention, for arrogance is the Cloak of Allah. What I would like to write is just a little something of what I think I understand, to be shared merely for pondering purposes. The enlightened ones comes in two forms, one Nabi, another Rasul. One for oneself, and the other for the masses. It is stated, that the last Rasul would be Muhammad pboh, but there never was mentioned whether there would be a last Nabi. In my belief, there are people out there still receiving enlightenment, in what form, I know not, that should be kept for themselves rather then spreading it. For spreading it, might lead to the misconception of it. But in my humble opinion, I doubt Amina Wadud falls under that category. Humans are not perfect, but to most Muslims, the prophet Muhammad is, as for a Muslim, they will learn of Isra' & Mikraj. But whatever we learn, through the ages will always come to naught, why? Because a fact becomes a story, a story becomes a legend, a legend becomes folklore, and probably a folklore becomes a fairytale/fiction. Did Adam exist? Did the flood occur? Was there ever a Noah's Arc? And so on and so on. No evidence, only 'written accounts'. These written accounts not only come from external sources, like The epic of Gilgamesh, but also from sacred books from each major religion. But, please, please remember, most of them were revised over time. Quoting one simple example is England does not follow the Vatican. Changes made by a King that found some passages not to his liking. And I am surprise that people take the book, lock, stock and barrel. The mormons, Joseph Smith's intepretation of the bible. A new religion? What bothers most muslims is that what Amina Wadud is doing is very misleading. Having one's intepretation is okay, you alone go to hell, but bringing other people with you? Be considerate.

243 dr.rde, The true idiots are those who can't tell when someone is being sarcastic and mocking them in posts. I'm sure Samantha knows that much, so she is obviously more educated than you.

244 dr.rde, If your brain had any capability to store information you would know whose side I'm on by what I told Samantha: "Oh, and one more thing: don't speak for your "fellow Muslims everywhere" because we have minds of our own and we understand our religion enough to differentiate between truth and falsehood. We know what it means to be a Muslim. We don't need you or Amina to tell us."

245 konfuzed, idiots r those who call themselves confused and at the same time try to be sarcastic when sarcasm is the last thing needed. and i never said that U didnt clarify whose side u r on. i said that idiots dont do that. unless u think that u r an idiot, i hav no doubts whose side u r on. and how r u soo sure Samantha is more educated than me? NOW WHOSE SIDE r u on?

246 I am not asking any to feel the way I do and I am also NOT telling anyone to believe what I Do. I also am not a CATHOLIC girl. I go to a very well known high school just for reasons so that I get into a University not because I believe in the religion. It also makes me and more informed person by going here. I do not participate in church or masses. But that's besided the point. Who am I to tell anyone how to interpret the Qu'ran? Who are you? We all have our own minds and feelings. I didn't mean to offend anyone, all I did was state my opinion.

247 Oh yes, and sorry for the mis-print. WHO RENCENTLY STARTED aprreciating Islam for what it is... One mistake, and yet the University that I am going into early because of my GPA still accepted me with honors.

248 To Alex: I was wondering if you had replied to the Al-Hadith (Sahih Muslim): Every innovation is a misguidance and every misguidance leads to Hell fire which was quoted by Muslim Man aka Plain Truth and also IIBN.. In my eyes, I see this as an act of innovation and thus is sufficient proof that women leading prayer is haram and leads to hell fire. I'm sorry if you have already replied about this point. It is possible that I might have missed your reply due to the large volume of posts. If so, I would greatly appreciate it if you could repeat your reply again. Thanks Mohammed Azm! ------------------------------------------------- Dear brothers and sisters Assalamu alaikum I'm pleased to see so much passion about Islam from our Ummah but please don't start dissing on forums. Prophet Sallallahualaihiwassalam said we are the best Ummah and its the responsibility of all of us to show the mushriks and kafirs that this is the best Ummah. Jazakallah Khair Mohammed Azm!

249 Salaam Alaikum Suban-allah, I came back to this after a long while and I find some still in support of Dr. amina wadud and some against her. Well, we are drawing near to the end of times and we should not forget our goal and responibilities. Amina wadud will be questioned tomorrow for her action and therefore we need not to worry. what we should worry is what we are doing for Allah swt. Are we living the message and spreading it or are we following the footsteps of shaytaan, may Allah's be curse on him? I think we should discuss something new because I don't believe amina wadud is so important that we discuss her over and over. right!! salaam alaikum

250 Salaam Aleikum dear sisters and brothers, It appears to me that all of you who disagree with professor Amina Wadud are acting very hostile against her, her ideals and the ones who support them... As peace is inherently bounded to the meaning of Islam I must conclude you all have misunderstood the message of Allah (swt) No one, no men or woman has the right to judge one another. This right is only to Allah, and everyone of you who claim the right to judge on others should read our Holy Qur'an. It says one of the biggest sin sis to compare yourself with Allah. So please all muslim brothers and sisters: respect eachother. Wadud is a respectful Muslim and all she tries to do is to be a moral agent of Allah, in trying to fulfill her duty by carrying out one of the most important things of Islam: Justice. May Allah guide you all

251 THIS ALL BEHAVOIUR IS THE HEBREW AND KRISTIANISM PROXY WHOSE WILL KILL MUSLIM BY MIND IN SILENT. DR AMINA WADUD IS THE ONE OF THEIR BITCH TO REACH THEIR GOALS. SO WE AS MUSLIM MUST NOT BELIEVE THIS ALL NONSENSE THINGS WITHOUT THINKING THE TRUTH OR REAL ISLAM BY OUR PROPHET MUHAMMAD SAW. THINK.... THINK .... AND THINK.... DONT ACCEPT ANYTHING WITHOUT THINKING. OUR ENEMY JEWS IS ALWAYS WANT TO WATCH OUR MUSLIMS BROTHERS FIGHTING EACH OTHERS BY OUR OWN RELIGIOUS ISSUES. THIS THEIR GOALS. WE MUST THINK AS THEM IF WE WANT TO FIGHT THEM. BELIVE ME, THE WAY IS BY USED OUR MIND. THINK AGAIN. ALLAHUAKBAR

252 Islam is the greatest religion with balance in every thing. Al Quran and Al hathees practising is the most easiest for humankind. God gave most easiest things for woman speacially carrying a responsible is the heaviest duty. In fact God released this kind of things from woman. Woman can pray at home very calmly and easily. Juma prayer allah made for man. So I am very greateful to god even not given difficult things but for winning heaven is equal for woman and man. Alhamdullih

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254 Correction, Amina Wadud has never been recognised as a Mujtahid or Islamic scholar or juristic doctor...and please be informed...Amina Wadud has no ground in Arabic language, she can't speak the language let alone grasping its sciences....

255 so Dr amina wadud doesnt mind bending over and men behind her ?? its honnestly rude to happen. astaghfirullah. god in the quraan makes it clear that the men are leaders over the women. its not an issue of superiority and inferiority but different roles taken by different creatures. can Dr amina change the fact that woman carry the child under the umberella of equality??? she has to complain about god's creation. thats what this form of feminism is.

256 You guys are the 23357 best, thanks so much for the help.

257 say's it all really on this page regarding equality in islam

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Critical_Analysis:_Women_in_Islam

also this page

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Wife_Beating_in_Islam

and this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_islam

not that all muslim men treat their wives badly just that it's allowed at least, and mandated by local religeous authorities at worst.
of course it's made worse by the fact that any fanatic can declare any other muslim as a heretic/apostate for suggesting anything other than a litteral interpretation of the Koran is possible.
all religeons have their issues with gender but islam is still very medieval.
peace out

258 Hello! I simply want to give away a huge thumbs up for the great info you’ve here on this post. I might be coming back to your weblog for more soon.

1 And Moslems have killed Hindus. Are we going to revoke Muslim visas now as well if the Hindus lobby our government?

2 How come the US government does nothing at all when Muslims kill "Infidels" (any non-Moslem must die!)??? Duh!

3 And now the United States starts acting like Europe. Giving in to the muslim, LIBERAL cry babies.

4 WTF, there is no proof that he was directly involved in the violence. We cannot deny him a visa simply because he was the leader of the area where the violence occurred. It would be the same as if India started denying our citizens visas because of some of the sh*t that happened at Abu Grahib prison.

5 If you do some research on the story, you will discover that the riots (in which many muslims were killed) were a reaction to a fire that some rogue muslims started on a train carrying hindu pilgrims. Geee... is there anywhere in the world where these muslims aren't causing trouble? It's an internal India affair. Why are we trying to make political statements by issuing/denying visas???

6 Good point

7 supposedly some "rogue muslims" started this right? wht the hell does that have to do with this at all? are you trying to say that just because muslims started it, modi had the right to ignore the pleas of innocent muslims? The United states should be very proud of this desicion. I applaud them. We dont need any terrorists like modi in this country.

8 "How come the US government does nothing at all when Muslims kill "Infidels" (any non-Moslem must die!)??? Duh" 1. it was terrorists 2. do you get the news, iraq and afghanistan ring a bell? 3. and lets see if any of you support saddam hussein getting a visa to america

9 "And Moslems have killed Hindus. Are we going to revoke Muslim visas now as well if the Hindus lobby our government?" yes, if a muslim leader lets muslims kill innocent hindus, then that leader should have his visa revoked

10 "WTF, there is no proof that he was directly involved in the violence. We cannot deny him a visa simply because he was the leader of the area where the violence occurred. It would be the same as if India started denying our citizens visas because of some of the sh*t that happened at Abu Grahib prison." i guess police officers testifying that they had orders NOT to help muslims and orders NOT to stop hindus arent proof enough. I guess this guy modi is as innocent as hitler. since hitler himself never killed jews, he just got others to do it.

11 AMS owned the Modi-lovers... I lived in India at the time... Modi was guilty as hell... I hope he tries to visit England instead...

12 I find it hard to believe that anyone can make excuses for such an action, let alone justify the killings, rapes, burning of thousands Muslims in gujarat. The allegation that Muslims have killed Hindus, what exactly does that mean? Are you referring to Pakistan-India war, or Kashmir Indepenedence movement? Name one incident in India where Muslims rioted and killed Hindus by the thousands like Hindutvas did in Gujarat. It seems that animosity towards Muslims blinds some of you. There is even a baseless justification about some muslim starting it, that is ridiculous. The fact is the police forces did nothing to stop the genocide and ethnic cleansing, and even encouraged it. What we must also remember is the inhumane treatment of other minorities in India. Christians, Sikhs, and Dalits have also been the target of communal violence similar to that of the Gujurat massacres. Anyone who supports such an action should not even be allowed to call themselves human.

13 Ammar, Yes muslims didnt do riots caz they cant with less strenghth.Instead they planted bombs in bombay,dont u know that?when writing something read the history and then write.Why do the muslims cleansed 4,50,000 hindus from kashmir?What does kafir means?wat does infidels means?does christianity or buddisim or hinduism or jews or any religion asks to kill their non belivers?First there is something wrong in Islam or something wrong u guys intrepeted.If we change or understand that all problems will solve.Say a place where thers peace when muslims are there. Inidans or Hindus arent enemies of any religion nor we convert other people to our religion.Unless ur born nobody can become a hindu.It has historys and civilizations beyond the west.Nalanda is the first university in the world which has science n technology before 2000 years.Hindus hv ethics of war but now to protect ourself we are forced to take swords which we dont like. I am not a fanatic but if u study indias history ull know. Reagards, Royal Hindu

1 Lawsuit and I see setlement big time all over this one! This is to good ... I must find a new use for my skilss of seeing into the future. Its actually in all fortune 50 company employee handbooks, but you must read it carefully and see the part that says "employee must notify the company of religious holidays and special religious needs" You just dont wake up on the day and say "I think I'll take Yom Kippur off" Cut and dry if they notified Dell is screwed, if they didnt its up a creek without a paddle for dorko in the plaid nickers.

2 No lawsuit. They were not Dell employees, but contract help staffed by Spherion. They were Spherion employees assigned to do a job, therefore Dell told Spherion that the contract help would have to go.

3 this website licks nuts!!! so do all of your opinions.... Small minded fags , must be part of the extra samll package belssed to ur ppls hahaha geeks

4 Dear leada, Yes I am a geek, I work around rocket scientist's every day ... we dont see the outside too much as we are way too busy building the next genration of hardware to scare your camel's and wax the jocky all in one move. Yes I have a small brain size; as I have gone through the necessary development since cave man (unlike your strain of the human kind that didnt fork in evolution) and have learned to multitask and dont need the extra weight and space. Yes I lick nuts ... actually a have a 5lb bag of salted assorted nuts on the end of my office desk. As to why I go into this much detail for a rabid camel jocky with the retardation level of infinity and the incapability of spelling due to his homoerotic dreams involving the camel herder eludes me. Though I did think of a better peice of hardware to better target the camel on the other side of the planet. cheers mate, Salamander

5 Salamander: Well said. Number of international pattens in middle east in last twenty years. 26. Number of international pattens at Hewlitt Packard per day 9. Says it all.

6 Hell, Rusty, just have the sack to say it: IKEA is way overrated too. In fact, I think it's a Swedish word meaning "do it yourself crap we sell to homocurious posters like leada".

7 RUSTY: One more negative comment about Swedes and I light the bonfire and get out my sheet.

8 I still say what in the hell are muslims doing here anyway. Send them back. They bring nothing worthwhile with them. Nothing but problems to every country the migrate to.

9 My religion calls for a one hour break every hour and double time after 9:00 AM. Also the boss must kiss my ass at lunch time. Will Dell hire me to?

10 dumbrooster: missing the "t" key on your keyboard? I believe they are called "pattents". Not "pattens". Grow a brain.

11 Jim, Sheesh their called "patents". Rooster had the "t" count right, just the placement was wrong. What are you, an idiott?

12 Gordon, it's "they're", not their. heh, and yeah, caught the double 't' in idiot. Must have been intentional.

13 Grey Rooster I think the point is that somone is bitching because they dont like the labor laws. They protect everyone, but if you read the laws they also tell you that there is a limit to which the protect you. Call Dell they might oblige you hehehehe.

14 Personally, I believe whoever hired them should be fired with them.

15 During an argument between the Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Foreign Minister Shimon Peres, Peres said that Israelis' policies of continued violence might "turn the US against us".   To this Sharon retorted:   "EVERY TIME WE DO SOMETHING, YOU TELL ME AMERICANS WILL DO THIS AND WILL DO THAT. I WANT TO TELL YOU SOMETHING VERY CLEAR: DON'T WORRY ABOUT AMERICAN PRESSURE ON ISRAEL;   WE, THE JEWISH PEOPLE, CONTROL AMERICA. AND THE AMERICANS KNOW IT."   -- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon October 3, 2001 (IAP News)

16 greg: quit posting the same shit. Or send me some of what you're smoking.

17 Jim: You sissy little faggot. You're back. How great. Maybe now the rest of the gay people will return. Poor Jim. He must miss being abused. It's a homo thing. They love being abused. He starts shit just so we will call him dirty names. This gets him off. He gets off a lot. Yes, Jim, I know, I know. You love it. Now go powder your nose and be a good girl.

18 Gordon, touche. I was too busy laughing at rooster's dumb ass I didn't notice that he butchered the word more than I thought. gayrooster: Sounds like you were the bitch tonight. Have fun cleaning out your ass missy. Next time don't act like a bitch and you won't be treated like one. Once again, you and the klan can suck it. Or each other. I really don't care.

19 Jim, you left your earing in the bed last night. Does that mean you will be over to pick it up this evening? Ciao, Lover

20 Bye jim:

21 gayrooster: going to a KKK gay orgy? have fun!

22 Jealous? ha, ha. Snitch on any Marines lately? I know, I know. No likes you. That's because you're a prick.

23 Well, i personally think that everyone should have a right to pray where they want, when they want, as long as they get their work done there should be NO PROBLEM!

1 Will be interesting to see what "facts" come out during this investigation and trial. One can't help to be discouraged though, when we find the very origin of this "kill all the nonbelievers" inside Islam ....inside the Quran. Does the world feel trusting? Whats at stake really? How can one tell the difference between "the good" and "the bad" when the more you get educated you find out the origins of the agenda?

1 its hard to find a better indicator of someones hate and contempt for america than a fact like thier founding date, while the nation mourned they planned how they could further hurt it and tie its hands so we could not defend ourselves. truly disgusting examples of humanity

2 there is nothing more un-american than essentially calling the 60 million americans who are against war and killing terrorists. there is nothing more unamerican than supporting a nazi like george bush.

3 "Billy" added tidbit of wisdom over at my blog: the gop are the terrorists and the "enemy" as howard dean has said. you are a problem that will soon be eliminated. i promise you that. Using your logic it is ok to call 62 million americans "unamerican" and "a problem with will be eliminated" for supporting Bush, but it is not ok to say someone who is antiwar a terrorist. Pot meet kettle.

4 "If you are dumb enough to believe their rhetoric, you're dumb enough to" Buy the BS put out by the MSM the last 60 years. Like the War on Terror is a quagmire. Like 15,000,000 - 35,000,000 white Russians killed themselves Joe had nothing to do with it. I could go on for 1,000,000 words but you get the point, Right? Need more?

5 Hey Byrd you can not fool me with your pseudo-name. billy my ass!

6 Ahh another traitor in our midst another scoundrel and blighter to hang from the yardarm the no good treacerous dogs where the rope? wheres a good stout oak tree? wheres a good horse? lets hang the sidewinder