1 People who are driven by altruism can be more of a problem than evil men. Even with the cruellest of men there is some hope of appealing for mercy and getting the dogs called off. But, when a compassionate but stupid man is engaged in wrecking things, annoying people, or wasting money in the mistaken belief that he is doing good, there is no hope. Beg him to stop and he will assume you don't know what's good for you. Demand that he leave others alone and he will assume you are evil. Try to stop him and he'll struggle like a knight on a holy crusade. Succeed and he'll hang like a martyr for as long as anyone is in eyeshot. It's ironic, but evil can be reformed while altruism pretty much has to be shot.

2 Shannon, you hit the nail on the head. This famous line from Walter Miller's "A Canticle for Leibowitz" says so much: "The closer men came to perfecting themselves a paradise, the more impatient they seemed to become with it, and with themselves as well." [...] Not to say that man shouldn't strive for perfection, but the consistant brow-beating of those who do not move fast enough or a lack of recognition for advances in the right direction causes more discouragement than encouragement. Like the child, who in frustration with a harping parent, finally says, "I can't make you happy no matter what I do, so I give up."

3 Didn't Ayn Rand say that altruism is ultimately self-destructive?

4 Demand that he leave others alone and he will assume you are evil. Try to stop him and he'll struggle like a knight on a holy crusade. Succeed and he'll hang like a martyr for as long as anyone is in eyeshot. Oh, lookie, you've just described about 98.7% of Liberals.

5 Torture is wrong it should not be done even when we know that "god" is on our side.

6 >>>Torture is wrong it should not be done even when we know that "god" is on our side. Torture schmorture. POWs in American prisons today are living in Club Med conditions compared to those in the past, and certainly compared to those held by other countries. Speaking of "god", Liberalism has all the hallmarks of a religion and its followers the same zeal as any religious fanatic. I suppose you can say Liberalism has become a replacement religion to fill the void created by secularism. That's why it's so funny when they claim it's all "relative" and how things aren't "black or white", or how they hate conservatives for thinking they're always right. I mean have you EVER heard a Lib admit he was wrong? or that he MIGHT be wrong? lol! I sure haven't! Arguing with Libs is like arguing with any muslim fundamentalist. They have their doctrine and they're sticking to it! Period. I mean if everything Libs thought about themselves were actually true, they'd all be moderates, willing to accept that gee!, conservatives might just be right at least 50% of the times! But Libs aren't moderates. They're just as extremist as they claim religious folks are. Take for instance how they claim they just want people to be happy. Translated: THEY want to be happy. And if what they do makes OTHER people unhappy then that's THEIR friggin problem for not being Liberal enough! Gee, they sound awfully "conservative" to me!

7 You will never find an apologist as extreme as a white liberal who takes up the cause of the brown and black people of the world, and I mean no offense to brown or black people, but refer to the stupidity and self-rightousness of the white liberal. How brown and black people can stand such condesending idiots is beyond me. The fact that the Islamists they support will kill them as quick as they would me provides comfort when listening to their pontifications.

8 >>>How brown and black people can stand such condesending idiots is beyond me. I sure can't. They positively DRIP with condescension toward the little brown munchkins.

9 ShannonKW: well-said!! from Philosophy:Who Needs It? by Ayn Rand: "What is the moral code of altruism? The basic principle of altruism is that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue and value. Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences which,in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice - which means: self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction- which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as the standard of good... ...Now there is one word-a single word-which can blast the morality of altruism out of existence and which it cannot withstand- the word: "Why?" Why must man live for the sake of others? Why must he be a sacrificial animal? Why is that good?..."

10 Which leads us to the question asked by a comedian once (help me remember who it was) If it's true that we're here to help others then, what are the "others" here for?

11 I'd agree with what Rand said about altruism, but the sort she was after is not what plagues us coming from Amnesty International. Self-sacrificing altruism is a self-limiting problem, and if it posessed the folks at AI to go to Sudan and take up arms for the innocents of Darfur, one of the two groups wouldn't be a problem anymore. They aren't willing to sacrifice however, which is why they pester other countries to sacrifice their soldiers instead. To my mind, the philosophical flaw with the altruism of groups like AI comes from their baseless assumption of moral authority. If I see a man suffer and help him out of pity, this is mere kindness as Rand put it. Others might have helped more or less, depending on how they judged the matter. Being some sort of human rights advocate means preempting the judgment of others and substituting your own, dictating who merits how much aid from whom. Yet, there is no reason to believe that their judgment is any better than the average man's, and a few to suggest that it may be inferior. It is easy to err on the side of generosity when the money is not yours; to err on the side of mercy for criminals who did not offend you; to set them free when you don't have to live among them; to give greater weight to evils that you find terrible to see than evils that are terrible for others to endure; etc.

12 What a bunch a crap.

13 AI is basically made up of two kinds of lefturds; those who think that all the world's problems could be solved with a hug, some granola, and the defeat and overthrow of the big, bad, evil USA, and those who just hate America for whatever reason. A good liberal is a dead liberal.

14 Shannon, dude, you're on a roll.