April 27, 2006

Do the Geneva Conventions Cover Terrorists?

Two questions:

1) Do the Geneve Conventions protect terrorists? This is a question of fact.

2) Should the Geneva Conventions protect terrorists? This is a question of opinion.

I'll let Ace answer the latter first:

There are many reasons to object to extending Geneva Convention protections with full force to those, like Islamicists, who delight in cruelty and inhumanity. But one reason is psychological in nature, and nevertheless worth considering.

We cannot agree with the Islamists that we are subhuman and only they are entitled to honorable and humane treatement. We must insist, particularly with these racist thugs who consider those who do not share in their creed to be animals, that honor is based on reciprocal conduct and by compact.

We cannot agree that their status as fervent Islamists makes them our superiors and creates obligations towards them that they do not extend in return towards us.

For, if we do, are we not confirming their racist beliefs? Are we not telling them that we are, just as they believe, inferior to them by God's decree, and as such, fit only for slaughter or subjugation?

Do I have to even say read the rest?

So, the answer to #2 is no, terrorist [my word] ought not be covered by the Geneva Conventions. But are they covered? This is a question of fact.

The Conventions apply to all prisoners of war. Should we consider Islamist insurgents prisoners of war? Let's see if they meet the conditions of a prisoner of war according to Article 4:2 of the Conventions:

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance...

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

Do the brave mujahidin wear uniforms or other regalia recognizable at a distance? No, they do not. Unless, of course, one considers Addidas knock-offs a distinctive sign. There's a reason those involved in armed conflict are required to wear uniforms: to protect non-combatents. Blending in with local civilians may be good strategy for assymetrical warfare, but it is also a recipe for getting a lot of civilians killed. The only people who can be rightly blamed for so many civilian deaths in Iraq are insurgents who do not follow the rules of war.

Do they conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war? Do the Conventions talk about what these laws and customs might be? Why, yes, they do. Including this from Article 3:1 which prohibits:

b) Taking of hostages
The mujahidin aren't guilty of that, are they?

Further, from the Geneva Conventions relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War:

Where, in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State.

Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention.

So, all of those alleged violations at Gitmo? Throw them out the window.

And Article 68 of the above Convention distinguishes between normal acts of resistance in an occupied zone and what the media likes to call insurgents--those dressed as civilians who engage in military operations:

Protected persons who commit an offence which is solely intended to harm the Occupying Power, but which does not constitute an attempt on the life or limb of members of the occupying forces or administration, nor a grave collective danger, nor seriously damage the property of the occupying forces or administration or the installations used by them, shall be liable to internment or simple imprisonment
And when a member of the resistance is engaged in espionage, sabotage, or killing?
may impose the death penalty on a protected person only in cases where the person is guilty of espionage, of serious acts of sabotage against the military installations of the Occupying Power or of intentional offences which have caused the death of one or more persons
Of course, all this only applies if the person is 'protected'--meaning a civilian or a uniformed member of an armed force. The Conventions are explicitly not extended to those who engage in acts outside the generally accepted rules of war.

The Additional Protocal is even more specific about who is and who is not a combatent, protected by the Conventions. Article 43: 1:

The armed forces of a Party to a conflict consist of all organized armed forces, groups and units which are under a command responsible to that Party for the conduct of its subordinates....[they] shall enforce compliance with the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict
While I'm sure Zarqawi and co. have some sort of internal discipline, it would be hard to argue that they enforce the rules of war.

Article 44: 3 conitnues:

In order to promote the protection of the civilian population from the effects of hostilities, combatants are obliged to distinguish themselves from the civilian population while they are engaged in an attack or in a military operation preparatory to an attack. Recognizing, however, that there are situations in armed conflicts where, owing to the nature of the hostilities an armed combatant cannot so distinguish himself, he shall retain his status as a combatant, provided that, in such situations, he carries his arms openly:

(a) During each military engagement, and

(b) During such time as he is visible to the adversary while he is engaged in a military deployment preceding the launching of an attack in which he is to participate.

Insurgents do not carry their arms openly. In fact, they try their hardest to blend in with the civilian population.

Burying an IED in the dead of night, wearing civilian clothes, cannot be considered within the rules of war. Detonating that IED with a cell phone while blending in with a crowded market is also outside the bounds.

This does not mean that such prisoners ought to be summarily executed, but that they lose their 'POW' status.

But wait, there's more. Various reports indicate that the muj are, in fact, substantially rewarded for their efforts. That they are mercinaries. And mercinaries, according to Article 47:

shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war.
The Conventions, as Ace mentions in his post, are built upon mutual obligations. When one side has no regard for rules of war, the protections of those rules no longer apply to them.

The Conventions should not apply to Islamist insurgents, and they do not.

Posted by: Rusty at 07:02 PM | Comments (11) | Add Comment
Post contains 1162 words, total size 8 kb.

1 I agree. Yet we give most, if not all terrorists caught two hots, and a cot with ocean view, and a towel for their head. We should do that, and do. If only the MSM would show how well those terrorists are kept, instead of the Abu Garab pictures, (about 48 front pages worth for the Old York Times), we could win the hearts, and minds of those who are brain washed to follow allah. Not only are we giving fair treatment to the Islamists, we are being stabbed in the back by the MSM. Perhaps, they are a form of terror, and as such should be given some type of treatment.

Posted by: Leatherneck at April 27, 2006 09:15 PM (D2g/j)

2 We treat these terrorists better than any legit POWs have been treated in any previous war. It's ridiculous. And still the Leftards complain. Fuck them all. They make me sick.

Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at April 27, 2006 09:54 PM (M3nr/)

3 The "logic" of libtards who say that the Geneva conventions "ought to apply" is mind-bending. I think they should consider applying their logic to the golden rule. A. Everyone "ought" to follow the golden rule. (Do unto others as you would have them do unto you). B. Since it "ought" to be, we should pretend that everyone in fact does follow the golden rule. C. Since the terrorists, [ahem] "militants", kidnap people, saw off their heads, bomb people indiscriminately, set their enemies on fire, torture, and so on, then they necessarily must want to be treated that way (because they are doing unto others as they would want others to do unto them) Conclusion: According to libtard logic, we must behead, torture, incinerate and otherwise abuse the crap out of these bastards because that is how they "want" us to treat them.

Posted by: Ansar-al-kufir at April 28, 2006 12:50 AM (y7gpG)

4 The Geneva Convention is a quaint relic of a time long past, and should be relegated to the history books where it belongs. I say put jumper cables on their nuts and electrified needles in their armpits until they tell all. And the goddamn liberals too, for that matter.

Posted by: Improbulus Maximusi at April 28, 2006 05:16 AM (0yYS2)

5 Ansar al-kufir Spot on, chap. The left, frustrated that they can not draw an actual equivalence between the sickening barbarity of our enemies and the ridiculously humane treatment that child-murdering human debris recieve at the hands of our soldiers, they are forced to invent equivalence. Projection - they want the US to be as bad as they think it is, so they have invent supportive information and pathetic straw-men in order to support their asinine assertions (since reality won't do it for them). The fact v. opinion point is also an important one. The Geneva Conventions, if anyone on the left actually read them, are written specifically to ferret out and to guard against barbaric destruction like the kind that the Islamists practice - namely, the targeting, hostage taking and torture of civilians. No mercy. Every Islamist in the world must be killed. Now.

Posted by: Good Lt at April 28, 2006 05:19 AM (yT+NK)

6 I delved into the question of whether the Geneva Convention covered terrorists after Amnesty International came out with their ridiculous report and sensationalized statements that Guantanamo was the new gulag. The essay was titled, Amnesty's Insanity, Part II Take a look. It covers both of your questions concerning both the law and ethics of the definition/protection.

Posted by: Granddaddy Long Legs at April 28, 2006 09:18 AM (v3hgS)

7 Good Lt -- Yes. The libtards (excuse my ad-hominem) are an inventive lot, aren't they? To argue that the U.S. is in violation of the Geneva conventions if it mistreats these flea-ridden mongrels (my apologies to fleas and dogs) is akin to saying that a man who kills an assailant in self-defense is guilty of murder. Such an argument ignores the ethical nature of the action (motivated from self-defense, not animus), the moving actor (the terrorist or in this case, the assailant, created the situation necessitating the use of force) and the legal definitions (which ultimately define the obligations and duties of parties living in a society governed by the rule of law). There is no equivalence between a premeditated cold-hearted murder and the killing of someone by means of lethal force in defense of one's own life. The end result is the "same" (someone is dead) but that's where the similarity ends. Period.

Posted by: Ansar-al-kufir at April 28, 2006 04:08 PM (y7gpG)

8 I'll take it a step further -- if, by some chance, the Geneva Conventions were determiend to apply to the Islamist insurgents, then they would be morally wrong and ought not be followed.

Posted by: Rhymes With Right at April 28, 2006 05:26 PM (4OIMX)

9 The Conventions state that non-uniformed combatant are to be executed. I'm okay with that.

Posted by: Doug Halsted at April 28, 2006 09:22 PM (VVB4J)

10 I covered this earlier, just like the previous commentator to this thread, when AI tried to fool us into thinking that the headchoppers and homicide bombers enjoy Geneva Convention protections. Short answer: no. Long answer: Oh HELL no. IF we had signed the 1977 "protocols", THEN the jihadists MIGHT be covered. The reason that we did not do this was because the US Governemnt, exercising rare foresight, felt that we would be made too vulnerable to potential asymmetrical warriors. Ace, and your understanding of the 1949 Conventions, is entirely correct. Someone has to be wearing a uniform and fitted out as a soldier to warrant that kind of coverage. Sympathy for the Devil. Jihadi Delento Est. http://okipunk.com/?p=158

Posted by: Peter Bland at April 29, 2006 01:00 PM (nZC0w)

11 This from a country that gives rights to animals

Posted by: sandpiper at April 30, 2006 12:56 PM (QtdTZ)

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