1 I agree. Clueless dopes.

2 Many people don't know that the ACLU and other protest groups receive large donations from countries that are enemies of the US. Cuba is said to be a major contributor. I can't quote the source on that because it's been too long but I remember the response was something along the lines of "we'll take donations where we can get them but that doesn't mean we support what they do." Don't think for a second that these groups are only misguided people who believe they're looking out for America. Some are involved explicitly because they know what they are doing is bad for America.

3 It's just possible that one organization could have both -- clueless dopes AND collaborators -- just as there were both Soviet Agents AND "Usefull Idiots" during the cold war.

4 Good info slug; this needs to be repeated, with facts and figures, as much as possible. The ACLU are known enemy agents, it's just that nobody has the guts to call a spade a spade these days it seems.

5 ACLU headquarters! Now that is a perfect spot for some Muslims to ignite themself's and see the 72 virgins

6 Leave it to the Atheists.Communist and Lawyers.Underground to weaken our national defenses and allow terrorists to enter our nation lets indite the ACLU

1 If these tapes are authentic, and they actually are of Saddam Hussein talking about WMD which he had, then we should hear some major apologies from the Left real soon. Dude, what planet are you living on?

2 The Surrender Monkeys will claim that is is all some Bushian/Rovian conspiracy, and that it is all made up. At which time it will be pointed out how many around the world, including those on the left, said Saddam had them, and they will reply "but they aren't President." And the reply will be "Thank God for small favors"

3 William Teach, I'm thanking God for huge favors!

4 Dr. S. - I will be charitable and assume your tongue was lodged deeply in your cheek on that apologies comment, otherwise I'm with Stotch.

5 I thought dubya said we weren't supposed to talk about the wisdom of the war anymore.

6 When have you ever paid any attention to what Dubya said, Actus?

7 "When have you ever paid any attention to what Dubya said, Actus?" Oh I pay attention. Which is different than following his lead. I'm more than happy to talk about the wisdom of the war in iraq.

8 Of course, as actus so clearly demonstrates, they are far more interested in proving what a dope Bush is rather than whether Saddam actually had WMDs, and where they went. That's a minor tangent of little consequence in their quest to prove Bush "lied".

9 Rusty I have some ummmm doubts that all things Saddam believes(d) in are true.

10 When was the last time Loftus has been right about anything? Never, from what I can recall.

11 I was going to say that the left will just ignore this and change the subject, but Actus beat me to it by ignoring it and changing the subject.

12 Once upon a time, Saddam had DubyaMD - aided and abetted by Reagan, Rumsfeld, Cheney. The 'dead enders' obviously lust after a modicum of vindication for what has become a disastrous fiasco, and will jump on any gossamer hint as if it were a wanton hussy in heat. Did he actually have naughty bits when Junior interrupted intensified UN insections to launch his ill-fated unprovoked invasion and occupation? 1) What did Saddam know? 2) What did Saddam say? 3) When did he say it? No mobile biolabs, no al Qaeda collaboration, no 'nook-yaller' (with no dedicated aluminium tubes, 'yellow cake' from Niger) programme. Iraq fragmenting in bloody chaos. Jihadists enabled and emboldened. Justified desperation counsels caution. Tipsy

13 >>>Once upon a time, Saddam had DubyaMD - aided and abetted by Reagan, Rumsfeld, Cheney. Notice how the moonbats like to claim how the evil rethuglicans "made" Saddam and gave him his WMDs, but will instantly turn around and say he never had WMDs and Bush "lied" and that efforts to find those WMDs is just "desperation." More of the same-- Lefties trying to play both sides against the middle.

14 and p.s., why do so many moonbats write/talk as if they're mentally retarded.

15 Guys, the New York Sun is NOT a credible newspaper. I can't believe how many people are linking this. This is the first blog I've hit on this so far which references anything BUT the New York Sun. I WANT to believe this but come on, you might as well be citing WorldNet Daily or The Nation. What the heck is "Intelligence Summit" and is there any link available to it??

16 The issue is not whether the Sun, or Worldnetdaily, or the Nation are credible papers, but whether the sources they cite are credible-- in this case John Loftus. I've never heard of the guy and know nothing about him. I'm not inclined to take this all that seriously until/unless the tapes are proven authentic.

17 One should be careful not to cherry pick John Loftus, he not as 'clubbable' as you guys might like. Watch http://www.infowars.com/articles/London_attack/mastermind_mi6_asset.htm where he claims (on Fox) that MI6 have been harbouring, aiding and abetting known terrorists. Doesn't quite fit your simplistic picture, does it? I am not a monkey, a surrenderer nor an eater of cheese.

18 From the Wikipedia entry for John Loftus: Loftus also serves as a media commentator, appearing regularly on ABC National Radio and Fox News. On August 7, 2005, Loftus provided the La Habra, California address of a suspected terrorist named Iyad K. Hilal on Fox News. However, Hilal left the address three years previously and the home was currently owned by the family of Randy Vorick, who were subjected to threats and vandalism and required police protection. [1] Loftus said "I thought it might help police in that area now that we have positively identified a terrorist" but did not say why he did not contact police in a more direct manner. Loftus later apologized for the mistake. Now THAT's funny.

19 The NY Sun isn't credible? Compared to whom, the NY Times?

20 Even if we assume that these tapes are genuine and that Saddam himself believed he still had WMDs at such a late date, that doesn't actually prove that there were any. One of the hazards of being a murderous dictator is that you end up surrounded by sycophants who tell you what you want to hear, because saying anything else is a good way to end up dead. Saddam probably ordered his people to produce/preserve WMDs, and even if they failed they would have told him that they succeeded and that the WMDs were ready to go at a moment's notice.

21 This will be another "wait and see" for me.

22 Steven Den Beste's theory has been my own since the beginning of the war. Thus, my word of caution. But, I don't "know" I'm right, so if evidence comes about to the contrary I'm willing to modify my beliefs on WMD.

23 The dead-ender Bushi'ites actually appear to desire that a rogue nation, Syria, is in possession of contrivances capable of inflicting widespread horror and misery - just so Boy George & Culture Club can be, albeit to a negligible extent, exonerated. Since both patriotic and humanitarian inclinations would dictate otherwise, I shall assume that impression is a misleading one. tipsy

24 Tipsy: I tried to lookup your paragraph in the moonbat dictionary, and it still didn't make sense. Are you one of those guys who doesn't use the Internet until you've downed two six-packs?

25 dave, I looked Tipsy up in the moonbat directory and found him listed under clueless clown.

26 Just curious. People keep claiming that Iraq is an unmitigated, unparalleled disaster. Given the scope of what has been accomplished, the fact that attacks are falling, more and more non-Kurdish Sunnis are joining the Kurds and the Shiites, and all of the other successes (and there are many) can anybody name another campaign or war (this is really a campaign, not a war) that was faced with so much resistance both in the arena and here at home that was accomplished so successfully? By what standard has any of the other wars we or anyone else has fought can anybody like Tipsy honestly say the Campaign in Iraq is the worst ever? Details? Evidence? Because from my understanding in costs and casualties throughout history vs the goals set forth and the success in acheiving those goals, the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns have gone off smashingly well. Again: details, evidence. Precise, factual comparisons of the cumulative events on the ground would be useful.

27 Grayson: The war in Iraq is a disaster to Tipsy, because Micheal Moore, and DailyKos told him so. JJ: lol!

28 Search my blog in 2003 for posts about Syria, the Baathist country, being the OBVIOUS answer. If Americans would shut off their ESPN for a moment, they might learn that the orcs are at the door.

29 "The dead-ender Bushi'ites actually appear to desire that a rogue nation, Syria, is in possession of contrivances capable of inflicting widespread horror and misery - just so Boy George & Culture Club can be, albeit to a negligible extent, exonerated." That is the most obtuse and patently ridiculous statement I've read all week. Let's boil it down by eliminating every word that smacks of venomous spittle: "The administration and its supporters hope to prove conclusively that the "LIAR!" label bandied about is unfair and untrue." (The nerve of them!!) Or, let's turn it around: "The whacky conspiracy theorists actually appear to desire that a rogue nation, Syria, is not in possession of contrivances capable of inflicting widespread horror and misery - just so Dingy Harry & The Mooonbat Band can be, albeit to a negligible extent, sanctimonious.

30 >>>That is the most obtuse and patently ridiculous statement I've read all week. Word. Their values have no core, so it's not difficult standing their "witty" insight on its head.

31 As I noted, I assume that any impression that there would be lowlifes actually desiring Syria's possession of proscribed weaponry capable of wreaking misery and havoc is unfounded. Clearly, decent folks everywhere hope that the official findings of Blix, Kay, and Rove that such stockpiles had been destroyed in the early 1990s pertains, rather than such a sinister prospect be valid. Grayson commented, "People keep claiming that Iraq is an unmitigated, unparalleled disaster" evokes, of course, the words of Army Lt. Gen. William Odom on 29 September 2005: “The invasion of Iraq I believe will turn out to be the greatest strategic disaster in U.S. history.” Yes, such a conclusion is widespread. I hasten to note that, fraudulent pretexts aside, I wish the terrorism introduced to Iraq by the invasion was not rampant, that it were not the case that oil production has now reached the lowest point since the invasion, that allies are abandoning the ill-fated fiasco, and that Iran appears to be, especially in the wake of the Iraqi Islamic party's victory over secularists, the undisputed winner in the whole sordid enterprise (as well, of course, as Osama "Dead or Alive" bin Laden for whom the woeful detour provided a recruiting bonanza.) I am reluctant to diminish the glee of those who detect success in all this, but the facts compel me to concur with most Americans that attacking Iraq was a mistake, going badly, not worth fighting - an American populace who overwhelmingly disapprove of Bush's handling of the matter. I'm afraid that is how I also see the sad state of affairs, but respect the viewpoint of those who still see it otherwise. tipsy

32 tipsy, well you are entitled to your opinion, and parts of it are even understandable given the current circumstances. But despite our current difficulties, I believe we'll succeed if we perservere and not cut and run like you folks want us to.

33 After tipsy sobered up, he actually made a little sense. I don't agree with all of it, but it was coherent. Never blog when drunk, tipsy, that's my motto.

34 You know why I believe there are WMDs? Because OIL FOR FOOD (MONEY)!!!! People made Money!!! (Officials at the United Nations, the Russians, the French the Germans...Incidently Haliburton and Ambramhoff didn't make the list). Who's to say the United Nations' led weapons inspectors didn't turn their heads away? YEAH! YEAH! Conspiracy theory!! What about... "Bush Lied!!" "Bush went to Iraq for Haliburton!!" "Bush went to Iraq for his Oil buddies!!" "There is no stained blue dress at the White House."

35 Oh by the way...... Did I forget to mention that John Loftus us a Democrat? Thought I'll let you guys know. :-D

36 Oh by the way...... Did I forget to mention that John Loftus is a Democrat? Thought I'll let you guys know. :-D

37 Tipsy, the umm, 9/11 commission report has dated documents, pictures and testimony delivered by people working under Clinton confirming saddam's connection to Osama and al queda. It also concluded that Bill based his decision to not go after Usama(as the report spells it) harder due to intense partisan politics and negative media spin. Now, 3/4's of the country believe Bush lied about wmd's and the aforementioned connection, and insurgency estimates and length of "campaign". Ted Kennedy states as fact that it was all made up in texas for a project administration had since day1. Most of the TV and metropolitan print media drum into us how much the admin has lied, and how bad things are going, and how unjustified the war is. The connection has been proven. So was intel on the wmd's shown to exist and not fabricated by the white house.If the wmd's are also proven to exist, even if only saddams' mind, then the negative spin the media constantly puts out will be responsible for further dividing a country and it's officials to the point where health bills, entitlement crisis' and other needed work will never get accomplished. If Saddam thought he had wmd's, then he could threaten to use them. Nobody would wait to see if the missiles launched actually had chem weapons. Nobody would wait for the missiles to launch. If he thought he had them, that alone is reason enough to act pre-emptively. If the media, and the dems were responsible, they would report that estimates of insurgency, war costs and length of times are always guesses at best. Hazzards of war. Name one war where these estimates have been correct. America, france, South africa and most other countries took decades to get truly stable govt's when independence was acquired. Should we expect Iraq to be stable in 2? the fact is, the democrats are telling lies now, and the media is generally supporting those lies, and it's the most dangerous thing in the country right now. The repubs did it also. This type of politics and media spin are putting the country in jeopardy. It's probably just as responsible for 9/11 as any other factor, except the true main factor. Islamic extremism. That must be eliminated before we have a world war over something stupid, like a cartoon. We need our politicians to work together, not at each others throats. As citizens, we should demand it, and not play into the media's power game of how much control they can have in politics, or fear they can instill in politicians through the use of negative spin.

38 These recordings are very old and pre gulf war 1. Loftus is a scammer

39 read general george sada's book.it is very compelling

40 I do beleive tipsy is one of those moonbats with a melon full of bile and hatred absorbed and consumed at one of our prestegious leftist institutions of higher learning that LOVES to read what he writes. Just as all lefties do, reply in a condescending tone....look down your nose at us Bush-ites tipsy. After all.....your party did offer us the likes of John F. Kerry!!!

41 "Secretly recorded tapes" with excellent quality!?! Notice how clear each speaker's voice is! Did the person "secretly" recording these conversations put a microphone in front of everyone?

42 The credentials of Loftus aside, some of the speakers at the Intelligence Summit will be Yossef Bodansky, the former director of the Congressional Task Force on Terrorism, former CIA Director John Deutch, former CIA Director James Woolsey and Maj. General Paul Vallely, U.S. Army (ret.). So there is some real weight there, and the tapes could turn out to be very important in a historical sense. However, anything less than actually finding WMDs will not change the image of the US abroad, nor the tone of the liberal media. No matter how efficiently the war was conducted, and no matter how free and prosperous Iraq becomes, they will never let us forget that the stated reason for invading was never proven. It will not be enough to say that Saddam was so crazy and delusional that he tricked us into attacking him. I am anxious to see the reaction of the MSM tomorrow. I suspect the revelations on the tapes will be overshadowed by relentless images of Abu Graibe (sp?), which the MSM never seems to get tired of.

43 Tipsy, if someone states on tape that they totally support terrorism, and will help sponsor it without being linked, does that mean anything to you? Jeez, he only killed hundreds of thousands of people, (no big deal right, proof he is a dictating Psycho) is a maniac just like Stalin was, hmmm.. do you think he has the mindset for that sort of thing? Seems like he would, don't you think? You don't wait for someone to hit you hard, you hit back first, or else you'll lose, simple as that. Its being realistic.

44 These tapes not only doesn't prove Bush regime's WMD accusation, it is obvious they were withheld from the American public because it shows Saddam warning us about terrorist attack years before 9/11: http://www.ms[remove]nbc.msn.com/id/11299205/site/newsweek/ Saddam Tapes: What They Don't Prove At one point Saddam muses how vulnerable D.C. would be to a "biological" attack, but adds that Iraq wouldn't do it. ... Two government officials, requesting anonymity because of the sensitive subject, say the tapes in no way prove that WMD stockpiles or programs existed at the time of the U.S. invasion or were moved to another country before U.S. troops arrived.

45 CNN and the democrats owe Bush and the Whitehouse a huge apology.michael moore does not matter.They should be ashamed to be aginst their government at time of war.

46 With the Iraq now devolving into the bloody chaos that was predicted, the apologists have an increasingly difficult time defending the fiasco. Even clinging to the discredited pretexts is inadequate at this point. You know it's time to give up the bushwa when one of the seminal thinkers in the neocon school, Francis Fukuyama, abandons the disaster: http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=266122006 ...and, not surprisingly, nary a peep from a Bush regime desperate for a modicum of vindication concerning Sada's uncorroborated hearsay. It is revealing that those who hasten to besmirch the reputations of individuals who have served Republican administrations with dedication and integrity such as Richard Clark and Paul Pillar, readily embrace the self-aggrandizing ravings of a bloak who had done whatever was necessary to rise to the second highest post in Saddam's air force. Quite sad, actually. Still, truth eventually penetrates. tipsy

47 Looks as if vestiages of waning support for Junior's Iraq fiasco are drying up, mere dust particles now scattering on the seridipitous winds of war. Following Francis Fukuyama, William F Buckley, Jr. acknowledges and abandons the disaster: http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley200602241451.asp

1 That would be my guess - sitting in Iran with a dozen cell phones and computers and Iranian security forces protecting him.

2 If we were in hot pursuit of him in Western Iraq, there is no way he would have gone East, through the whole country, to cross the border into Iran. It makes no sense whatsoever. He would have gone to Syria... or even better... his home country Jordan where he no doubt still has friends.

3 Ariya, there are regular flights between Iran and Syria. He could have supper in Damascus and breakfast in Tehran on a daily basis. Hell, he's probably doing a madrassah tour in Pakistan to drum up some recruits.

4 Ariya: He has a double death sentence in Jordan (they'll kill him twice?) I doubt he is looking to go back there.

5 You've missed the obvious. The pressure against the Mullah Manhattan project is building. Any action taken against that project by the West will trigger an Iranian response IN Iraq. And who better to direct that response than the Z-Man himself. So of course Z-Man is in Iran right now. He is involved in some high level discussions about their options, about their tactics, targets, cooperation with Al Sadr's boys in the Shiite south. And then again, it's time for him to have a sit down with Osama himself, who is, rest assured, comfortable in a condo outside Tehran. Don't buy any of this nonsense that Osama bin dirtball is wandering from cave to cave in the Northwest Frontier, or that he is slipping from mud hut to mud hut in the dead of the night. He's quite comfortable in Iran, with his family, and his many female companions.

6 Dan, I don't believe he's in a cave either. He's somewhere not too far from a hospital for health reasons. Someone is making him comfortable in their home.

7 I guess there is one nice thing about working for Al Qaeda. Promotions come very quickly. Of course, you don't last very long afterwards.

8 I agree with Dan.

1 "The bottom line is that Islam puts up considerable resistance to civil and political freedom, but that resistance is at least not increasing over time, and it is probably decreasing." No wonder the leftards are going batshit crazy now; they lost communism and fascism, and now they're losing islamofascism as well. They seem drawn to extremist ideologies for some reason, and islam is the last one that offers any sort of real threat to the West, so they're going to hang onto it tooth and claw. If islam as a system is either decreasing or simply not increasing its resistance to reform, its most ardent adherents are definitely increasing their resistance, along with their primitiveness, violence, and savagery. Perhaps we are witnessing the swansong of islam, but the death throes are going to be hell if we don't do somthing soon.

2 If we bomb al-jazeera, does the freedom index go up or down?

3 Neither, but everytime actus comments the intelligence index takes a nosedive.

4 HA! Good one JJ.

5 actus is the master of one line quips that may or may not be on-topic. I think he does it to convince himself of his moral superiority. It's the only affirmation he can get.

6 He's a legend in his own mind.

1 Let me on the sumbitch's jury. Hell, give me an hour and a good knife and I'll have his hide ready for curing.

2 If you think Saddam's trial has been a circus, imagine what it would have been like had it been held in the World Court. Remember Milosevic ...

1 I assume Mr. Mortazavi will underline his point by reprinting the twelve Jyllands-Posten cartoons.

2 Perhaps we should then send a few cruise missiles, the way of the iranian embassies, burn the odd flag etc. We shouldn't be hearing any complaints, afterall, its just business as usual for them.

3 Does that mean that Hitler=Muhammed? Maybe I'll submit a few cartoons along those lines myself.

4 So they think the answer to mocking the "Prophet" with cartoons, and challenging free speech, is to actually attack history (instead of Religion) and make fun of the genocide of the Israeli people -- should we take this as another of their threats to wipe out Israel ? The next Mohammed cartoon I want to see, is one painted on the side of a Tomahawk heading to Iran, preferably with something witty painted underneath, like Behold, I bring you your Virgins -Express

5 what do you think Iran is up do? Does what's-his-name have a game-plan here?

6 أنتم أعداء الله عقاب الله آت لا محالة يا أبناء القردة والخنازير

7 to ابن الاسلام You are a true and genuine example of a banckrupt fundementalist retard whose brains consist of multiple layers of NOTHING. there are no sons of pigs, or sons of monkeys (as you put it) but you, and those who raised you to become the psychopathic idiot you turned out to be...tfoooo

8 Heroic.. I was pondering that. The Iranian Hitler is just itching to be attacked. It makes me think he's got an ace hidden somewhere. I just hope it's not hidden in the US in the form of a suitcase.

9 Now we can see the double standard of the Christian Europe. Denying Holocaust is our freedom of expression. But in Europe it is a crime. Shame on you Europeans. You are launching another Crusade? As Ahmedi Nejad rightly put it " If you, the Europeans, are responsible for the so called Holocaust 'the myth', then you give a piece of land for the Jews. Why did you establish such a country, one of the most terrorist countries in the world, Israel, behind only to the United States, No. 1 terrorist country in the world, in the heart of in Palastine.

10 >>>Denying Holocaust is our freedom of expression. Assfag puke, shut your stinking hole you filthy terrorist. There's no reasoning with animals like you.

11 I can't believe I'm hearing "freedom of expression" and Iran uttered in the same sentence. Like the freedom Kazemi had to express herself.

12 The US is the Number 1 Terrorist, wow. Anyone heard that lame excuse for terrorism trotted out, 'one mans terrorist is another mans hero'. Guess what Assfaqed PK, it works both ways too, Uncle Sam my Hero...

13 I think soon its going to get to the point where we will be forced to deport all Muslims out of civilized countries. Send them back, and put a big fence around the Muslim countries to keep them in.

14 Either Islamo-fascist or Nazi comments here. Humanism is really on vacation these days.

15 And when there are protests consisting only of strongly-worded editorials, but no "boycott" of Iran or torching of embassies, what will spokesmen for the ROP say then?

16 Hopefully if they do publish these disgusting cartoons of the Holocaust in this Iranian newspaper, it will show that westerners will not react to it in an unreasonable way; burning Iranian flags, setting fire to Iranian embassies etc. I know that the Prophet Muhammad (saas) is very important to Muslims, as is God to Christians and that lampooning Muhammad (saas) is one of the worst blasphemous acts you could ever do in the Muslim world but surely this has been blown out of proportion.

17 Atta boy human! Cool keyboard too! I'm taking you at your word that that's what the inbred moron spat onto the screen. I betcha Insanetors Swimmer and Horseface are green with envy for not thinking (uh, sorry scratch that-thinking is one hell of a stretch for either one of those misfits), coming up with that ready for NYT quote on their own!

18 And to the nutless wonders that Jesusland Carlos and human called out and any of the rest of you who side with this kind of evil delirium, why don't you slither your sorry, gelatinous, spineless bags of goo down to the NYT and do a camp out thingy. Don't forget the marshmellows and tires. It's not really a News Agency. It's actually another Danish Embassy, really. I got it straight from Plame herself. Or was that another deranged dhimmi named jimmy, it's hard to keep the lies and liars on track. BTW: Do you know what they call a Professor who graduates last in the class?

19 What will happen is a few people will carp and complain and the Iranians will equate that with the burning of buildings, destruction of personal property and marching down the streets with signs and shouting slogans demanding the death of everyone involved. And a bunch of Muslims will agree that the reactions are indeed the same. It's called moral relativism and it's infected much of the world. They just don't get it.

20 Most of this is saber rattling, as most Americans only care if they can buy cheap chinese merchandise in wal-mart instead of just fondling it and if gas can remain under $3.00 a gallon. Those are the fundamental concerns of America and the West in general. I think 1/3 of the West would put their women in burkas if they could make a dollar on it and 1/3 would put their women in burkas to avoid conflict. The rest of us just talk tough in blogs.

21 By publishing blasphemous cartoons of the Prophet (p.b.u.h), the double standard of the Christian Europe is revealed. If these Europeans are really arguing for freedom of expression, then why they are unable to bear what others say about the holocaust, the myth. Denying holocaust is a crime in the so called DEMOCRATIC CHRISTIAN EUROPE. Shame on you Europeans. You are supporting every terrorist acts of Israel, one of the terrorist countries in the World, second only to the US in terrorism. Israel is everyday killing innocent Palestinian civilians including women and children, grabbing their land, destroying their crops. christain Europe is silently watching and allowing them to do all these crimes. They promised the Palestenians a state by 2005, Tony Blair, the Public Relations Officer of the Terrorist Bush promised all the Arab states that the Palastenian nation will be a reality by 2005, only to garner support for his and his master Bush's evil plan to invade Iraq, to steal their Oil wealth. What did you Europeans do thereafter. Now you are behind Iran, for accusing it of trying to make nuclear arsenal, when you all are having abundant weapons of mass destructions, including the nuclear warheads. And your foster son Israel is also having more than 200 nuclear warheads. And you are not doing anything against it, but accusing and threatening Iran for using nuclear energy only to produce electricity. You promised Iran all aid if they stop enriching uranium, but did not do anything for two years, and due to your cheating, when Iran started enriching uranium, you are now behind them with uncle sam, but without taking any action against Israel.. You CHRISTIAN EUROPE, ARE YOU LOOKING FOR ANOTHER CRUSADE? Do you want to destroy Islam? You are in fools' paradise. Islam will,ONLY ISLAM WILL PREVAIL. YOU ALL WILL PERISH ONE DAY, GOD WILLING.

22 Assfag, you are correct about the illegality of denying the Holocaust in Europe. That is indeed censorship and hypocrisy. You're right! But I would expect nothing less from Europe's politically correct so-called "humanists". Notice that here in America we have so such censorship even though we are fascistic little christian fundies. Yes, Israel can keep its nukes, but Iran may not. Those are the rules. Why? Because Israel will not use its nukes to threaten the West, but Iran will. It's that simple. Israel is our friend, Iran is our enemy. And we aren't "stealing" your oil wealth. We are BUYING it. Do you know the difference between BUYING something versus stealing it? You should be grateful that we are BUYING it, by the way, because if we don't BUY your oil, you'll have NO MONEY to buy food from the Danish! And then what will you do? Eat sand? Drink oil? Re "palestine." As long as Hamas is in power, "palestinians" will NEVER have a state. As far as America being number one terrorist and allahs'

23 It's so funny how these primitive savages, just barely out of the caves, think they can intimidate us with their idiotic rhetoric.

24 I am fed up with Islam. I have Muslim friends but they condone all the so, so many flaws in the quaran and the hadith. Lets stick to facts here about the quaran. Muhammed was the first one to begin a crusade!! heres the link, and the timeline. The film "kingdom of heaven", where the european christians begin a crusade against islam, it shows it began in 1000's. heres the link, heres the timeline, an i want Muslims to respond to this, since no-one is allowed to ask questions about the religion without a FATWA, no-one is able to renounce the religion OR THEY WILL DIE (this 2006, for Allahs sake)and no-one is going to admit to Muhammeds history of Paedophilia ( he has sex with when she 9, this is actually true, most muslims scholars, but make the excuse "it was the times) GENOCIDE ( they had 3 choses when encountering non- muslim villages. Become a muslim, pay a tax, or die) and sodomy and abuse towards women)??????? This is meant to be the religion of peace? heres a link http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5024&search=crusade

25 First off, I am married to a Muslim and am Jewish myself. Muslims believe in the O.T. and that Moses was a messenger of G-d. An informed Muslim will know that G-d gave the land of Israel to the Jews. The Europeans didn't give that Land, G-D in the O.T. did. Nothing in the Quran has ever changed that, nor could it. See: http://www.templemount.org/quranland.html

26 Who's going to call Animal control on Ashfaq P K, he's foaming at the mouth and obviously rabid. Not calling you a son of a dog or anything, but you probably are the only person who's mom had eight nipples, and breath smelled like Pedigree chum.

27 Fucking Americans!. At the hand of the Jews,you become so blind, so paranoid about Islam. You are nothing but real stupid dogs to your masters- the jews. Any fucking response from you fucking American? Please response because your masters are watching!. After all, what's good of being loyal dogs if you fucking americans can't bark? You can forward your fucking email to me: Rush008@yahoo.com

28 Yo, i GiVe a *UcK tO aLl rEliGioN eXcEpT thE mIgThy 1 iF YoU LeT YoUr MotHeRS sLeEp WiTh Me fOr a NigTh LoNg cRuSaDe tHe tHeMe oF tHis bLoG wiLl cHanGe iN a mAttEr oF a NiGth. wAiTiNg 2 C 12 cArToOns, kEep tHe gOod wOrks up bRo. lEt tHe bElL oF fOs rInG. :p

29 To the Jews all over the world, it is true that you get other people to fight and die for you -the americans! Don't you ever doubt them because they have proven to be loyal dogs and pigs, brainless! son of the bi....! Rush008@yahoo.com

30 Yeah right, please respond to someone else's Email -- do you think everyone is as dumb as the cumdump you call "mum"?

31 hmmm, seems like the temperature is raising over here. Is this the old Arab vs Western Civilization "war" again. Rather than arguing each other on the issue, you'd better watch-out for the "empire strikes-back" of the thousand years old chinese civilization. The one who invented papers . Don't you all aware of the acquisition of major American and some european firms by the red flag firms? I'm off, I'll take vacation in samoa then bye.. :p.

32 I need someone to help me draw. I know we can win the gold coins. My caption: Hajj Amin Al-Husseini -- "Yes I can get you 20,000 Hanjar fighters for the SS as long as you also let us kill off 3/4 million of Serbs and those dirty gypsys." There are lots of pictures of Hitler and Hajj Amin Al-Husseini. Or Hajj Amin Al-Husseini inspecting the Hanjar. The proper term is Islamo-Lenninist who distort the Al-Qurʼān al-Karīm. Those who know and follow the Al-Qurʼān al-Karīm are honorable and peaceful people. Shaykh Ibn Baaz Kayfa NuÂ’aalij WaaqiÂ’unaa al-Aleem – Page 108-109 issued a Fatwa against hijacking planes and kidnapping.

33 I think the the poor emarican has been misled by the propaganda initiated by the jews who invented them long ago in order to cover for their crimes in Palastine. American politics has been long moulded by the jews through their financial strength and tactful approach. I never believe in holocaust...If at at it is true, HItler might be a bad leader... but in all honesty, why would a leader hated the jews so much? Was he out of his mind? Were the jews so innocent that they simply became the target of a mad man named Hitler? Why was that HItler's sentiment to the Jews so incomprehensible? Jews were not at fault at all for HItler's sentiment? COMEON PEOPLE!HItler can't be so wrong! Well, come to think about this... HItler's wrong stand at what percentage? 80%? 50%? and the jews were faultless? See? We all know that the Jews are in one way or another the cause of all the problem between the muslim world and the west. How could the land belonging to the Palestine and acknowledged by the UN to hava been "accupied" by the Jews illegally, denied by the Amarica?. The answer seems obvious! ... because every blood and flesh of the american citizen has been contaminated by the Jews. They beg for the western sympathy and in silence clapping their hand when the western start quarreling with the muslims, and killing each other in the process. Rush008@yahoo.com

34 Freedom of expression is borderless? BY virtiue of this freedom of expression, one has the right to offend other people, religiously or otherwise. If that is correct, why would it be a crime to doubt holocaust in the european countries? Is,t it a clear hinderence to the freedom of expression... because it is the right of every man and women to doubt it. Come to think about that people. Rush008@yahoo.com

35 For someone demanding a lot of tolerance from us you seem to be displaying an lot of intolerance rush.

36 The letters posted in this web site and reply to my letter is concrete examples of how intolerant are the Europeans and the Americans. They canÂ’t even give a satisfactory reply to my questions. I am repeating my words here. By publishing blasphemous cartoons of the Prophet (p.b.u.h), the double standard of the Christian Europe is revealed. If these Europeans are really arguing for freedom of expression, then why they are unable to bear what others say about the holocaust, the myth. If publishing any thing in the name of freedom of expression, then it is my freedom of expression to doubt and deny the existence of the so called HOLOCAUS, THE MYTH. Denying holocaust is a crime in the so called DEMOCRATIC CHRISTIAN EUROPE. Shame on you Europeans. Your double standards and enmity towards Muslims are evident from the following. If you are hell bent on freedom of expression, why you are preventing muslim girls and women from wearing head scarves. Wearing head scarves is their freedom of expressing herself. But in European Countries it is not allowed. NOT DOUBLE STANDARD? You the Europeans and the US is pursuing a policy of double standards when it comes to democracy. For you, democracy means the party or the government whom you support should win the election. If the winners are your opponents, you will not allow them to form the Government. Examples: In Algeria , the Islamic Salvation Front won the election with huge majority. But the so called CHRISTIAN EUROPE, PARTICULARLY FRANCE, along with the worldÂ’s No. 1 terrorist country, the USA, interfered and made the Military take over the control. Now the country is under civil war. Who is responsible for that, no doubt, the CHRISTIAN EUROPE AND THE USA. What happened in Turkey? Even though the Islamic Pary led by Najmudheen Arbakan won the elections , you the Europeans with the help of military there, cancelled the elections and made the military to take control there also. Now these Europeans have got retaliation. Again in Turkey, Islamic Party is ruling. What happens in Egypt? EuropeÂ’s and AmericaÂ’s friend Husni Mubarak is ruling for so many years without any democracy. And he recently conducted an mock election. You Europeans and Americans call them Democracy? When your friends are making mockery of democracy you have no complaints. When your opponents wins the election, you try to topple those governments. What a double standard? Now you are aginst Hamas. HamasÂ’s victoy shocked you? You want them to recognize Israel? How can you recognize a country which is illegally occupying your territory and flouting all the resolutions passed by you in the Security Council? A country which is killing your people every day? You promised the Palestineans a state by 2005. What you have done to fulfill your promise? Will you stand as a silent spectator, if any other country illegally occupy your land and kill your people, destroying your agricultural crops, dividing your land by great walls and harassing you always? What did you do in Bosnia Herzegovina? You allowed the Serbs, the insane and maddest people in the world, to systematically kill the muslims of Bosnia, in the heart of Europe. When you were supplying arms to the Yugoslavians and the Serbs, you prevented the Bosnians from acquiring any weapons to defend them by bringing an arms embargo against them. And thereby joined with the Serbs in massacring hundreds of thousands of innocent muslims, including women and children. You raped muslim women of Bosnia. Bosnian Vice President was killed by the Serbs from dragging him out of the UN armoured vehicle in the presence of your European peace keeping force. They killed him in front of your Peace Keeping Force.. You deliberately assisted the Serbs to kill him.. Radovan Karadjic , the War Criminal is still being protected by you, the Europeans. You are supporting every terrorist acts of Israel, one of the terrorist countries in the World, second only to the US in terrorism. Israel is everyday killing innocent Palestinian civilians including women and children, grabbing their land, destroying their agricultural crops. Christian Europe is silently watching and allowing them to do all these crimes. They promised the Palestenians a state by 2005, Tony Blair, the Public Relations Officer of the Terrorist Bush promised all the Arab states that the Palastenian nation will be a reality by 2005, only to garner support for his and his master Bush's evil plan to invade Iraq, to steal their Oil wealth. What did you Europeans do thereafter? Now you are behind Iran, for accusing it of trying to make nuclear arsenal, when you all are having abundant weapons of mass destructions, including the nuclear warheads. And your foster son Israel is also having more than 200 nuclear warheads. And you are not doing anything against it, but accusing and threatening Iran for using nuclear energy only to produce electricity. You promised Iran all aid if they stop enriching uranium, but did not do anything for two years, and due to your cheating, when Iran started enriching uranium, you are now behind them with uncle Sam, but without taking any action against Israel.. You CHRISTIAN EUROPE, ARE YOU LOOKING FOR ANOTHER CRUSADE? Do you want to destroy Islam? You are in fools' paradise. IN THE END ISLAM,ONLY ISLAM WILL PREVAIL, GOD WILLING.

37 IN THE END ISLAM,ONLY ISLAM WILL PREVAIL, GOD WILLING. Why do you idiots insist on tacking on "God Willing" on to the end of every stupid statement you make? Is it because in your heart you know you will fail, so you can blame the failure on the will of Allah? News Flash: Allah is WILLING to wipe out the Muslims by the thousands, in Iraq and Afghanistan war, Indonesia with the Tsunami, Earthquakes in Pakistan, Iran and Turkey and then again recently in Egypt with the sinking of a Ferry. With the logic of "Allah's Will" in everything, we can then assume he hates you.

38 I stumbled across this site doing a Google search on the cartoon controversy. I must say that I am appalled by many of the comments posted by contributors. Do you all realise that it is YOU that are preaching hate with your insults and talk of wiping people out. Why, Hitler himself never said such things about the Jews that you people are saying about Muslims! God help us all. You especially! Best Wishes. Joe

39 Uh, Joe, I'm surprised at how you admonish the hateful language of non-Muslims and not the hateful language of the Muslims in this thread. Are you ignoring something here or are you really that blind? And to this Ashfaq guy - Your hypocrisy is astounding. I'm really at a loss for words.

40 Free speach is free speach, aren't we being hipocritical if we condemn them for cartooning something. I mean Lighten up people. The violence is unneccesary, but its ok for someone to say something, we have the right to object to it. It may be in bad taste and offensive. Quit the PC bullshit and just deal with it.

41 somebody answer me, who was the fisrt using nuclear power to attack another. answer is the world most terrorist Uncle Sam.

42 I think the Hamshahri Holocaust cartoon contest is a great opportunity to underline the repressive and backward nature of the Islamo-fascist socities. Let's all flood the newspaper with drawings that show Hitler and his gang hand-in-hand with Mohammed and his buddies celebrating the murder of 6 million human beings. Let's see if the Iranians have the balls to print THOSE. They've issued a challenge as to wether our society will tolerate holocaust cartoons...but they weren't clever enough to forsee that cartoons even about that subject can still offend traditional (as opposed to core) Muslims. Don't misinterpret the tone of this post. I know and respect decent people of all religions and nationalities. It's the indecent people I object to....and there are indecent people of every religion and nationality. This is a matter of a few murderous and power-hungry "leaders" (from all religions and nations) trying to hijack the world for their own selfish and hateful agendas. Let's put the hatemongers in their place! Can anybody find out how to make submissions to the contest? The only web pages I've found so far are Arabic-only.

43 Americans wake up. Our country and our freedom has been hijacked. Don't listen to them. The truth is coming out every day. This is what our first President George Washington said about these people. "They (the Jews) work more effectively against us, than the enemy's armies. They are a hundred times more dangerous to our liberties and the great cause we are engaged in... It is much to be lamented that each state, long ago, has not hunted them down as pest to society and the greatest enemies we have to the happiness of America." http://www.realnews247.com/who_rules_america_updated_2004.htm http://www.radioislam.org/bush/bush-march262003.htm

44 P.K. Assfuk , Question for you : Were you born an asshold or did you work at it your whole life ?

45 ack!

46 Woohoo! I stumbled right into the dark ages over here! I like to think most folks are folks, the difference being your where you are brought up. Alot to do with "where you stand is where you sit". Religon is a bad deal, the code, however is right. The code are tenents that make us different from most other life on this planet. It tells us it is not a good idea to steal, kill, etc... all the things you would chalk up to comman sense. Putting a ethno-geographical twist to the code, complete with psuedo-historical relevance and of course topped off with a healthy sprinkling of myth & imagination, leads to corrupting of a rather simple notion. God (s) where an excellent example of human natures need for understanding, the science was not always there, so then you get interuptations, and dogma, which have become somehow on par with reality, there is a reason for this, you guessed it, the almighty carrot stick. Religon has always done what Kings could not, self-censure, and a reward/punish system that does not empty their coffers... Get to the point already, you say, fine... Get rid of all religons! Take personal accountability, get rid of the crutch of archaic ideas, and get on with your life! From an observer who whorships no one, all I see is wasted lives & energy, better spent building a world for all. I know I change no opinions with my blather, and you will all no doubt carry on about who's god(s) has a "bigger" one, I thought I would try and shine a little commen sense in here, good luck to you all in getting that nasty religious monkey of your back! Enjoy!!!

47 i think some of you people are really being tough on muslims man. Im not saying i aggree completly with Iranian people, that the holocoust was a Myth and all that crap but i think we should stop hating each other and we have to chill out. There is this idea in US that shows most of the americans hate muslims because of their radical thoughts and most of the americans hate jews too because of the whole Christianity and Jewish stories and that the jews betrayed jusses. i think we should stop fighting over these religous stuff and appreciate the life as full as possible together and with love and peace. You might not agree with me or cuss at me like others but i still respect your thoughts and freedom so just chill!!

48 persianhero: Perhaps sing cumbya as well? Just kidding, I agree this thread is prime example of why it is so hard for folks to get along.How can we as a people, when we are close to traversing the stars, throwback certain aspects of our evolved brain...it is quite shocking to me perfectly intelligent, educated folks stuck in a loop steeped in ignorance and cultural mindsets akin to lemmings? Now, I understand for anyone to accept their particular religon, they cannot do it 95%, and have 5% doubt...that is crushed out of you early generally speaking. So what we have are tons of folks hostage to there dogma, unable to see clearly, and totally unable to have two differing ideas in their head without filtering them thru religous buffers. Yes, I am attacking ALL religons, even the ones I find to be mild and unintrusive (North American Indians come to mind), because they all distract, and they divide us more then anything else... Let it be known my feelings are actually getting more mainstream here in Canada,(Go hosers eh!) Yes, us godless frozen people have had enough of the church (any), they would be better served sheltering the homeless 24/7...whats that? They do, well ok, but in my world, a bible would not become manditory reading for those poor folks..they need jobs, not religon. Well, I end my little rant on Religon in general now, please continue the godtalk, feel free to utterly disregard all my comments, especially if your religous, as if you had a choice!!!

49 Way to go, eh!, Invisablemaninthesky ! Although, I must say that the monkey on the back (as you put it, ie: religion), is actually two monkeys, a good one and a bad one. But, yes, both are 'religion' monkeys. If you can shake the bad monkey off your back you're doing the best. Of course this is very tricky, ie: really knowing which one is bad and which one is good. And since this is rather tricky, for most of us, then its certainly much better to shake both monkeys off you back (as you suggested), rather than taking the risk of keeping the bad one on ! btw: if a canuck/muslim like me can have this view, I wish that other people of religion could have the same view. Yes, I know, I'm asking for waaaaaay too much here boybinary

50 Hey Rush, 0 l/ =Muhammed! /\ Now don't go burning down a Danish embassy over this one!

51 So sad, So Sad...I have Irrefutable proof that Allah, God, Muhammed, jesus, whatever are simply figments of a corrupt imagination. The proof that a so called 'god' does not exist can clearly be seen in our actions as a species inhabiting this little blue marble. If a ‘god’ really did exist, what would he see? He would look down from his spaceship or something, and see a bunch of semi-intelligent monkeys lobbing cruise missiles at each other, the occasional beheading, and the ever present suicide bombings. What would this omnipotent being think? He would probably turn his spaceship around and go back to nebulan 5 or whatever black hole he came out of. Or, Well according to Islamic fundamentalists he would of course, blame the Jews. The problem with Islam (I'm using Islam as an example because the proof to a godless universe is best illustrated using this particular religion) is that for some reason, most muslism actually believe that Jews are the cause and root of all the problems inflicting us as a race. People all over the middle east, really do believe, with blind honesty that Jews are the cause of thier suffering. How briliantly, convienantly simple. Its the ultimate scapegote the Jews. Why is there war in the middle east? the Jews. why is the US occuping Iraq? The Jews. why do I have an ingrown toenail? THE JEWS God damnit. There is no neeed to actually think about the problem and take a second look at a religiously fanatic government, with no prospects for peace, equality, advancement or a future. no that would simply be too complex and we might actually have to use a small, often neglected organ called the BRAIN. So the real problem of course is that THE JEWS DID IT. So why blame Islam on all of society’s ills? Why? because Islam is a religion fit for the middle ages, infact during the 1400’s Islam was perhaps the greatest religion on earth, but a few things have changed since(namely 600 years of evolution) but unfortunately Islam is still living in the past, the very distant past. So what are we left with today? sickies burning Danish flags? (huh? Danish? What did they do? They arent even Jewish?) Religion as a whole will be the downfall of society, and it is clearly evident with Islam. We can already see how successful a society led by religious fanatics can be (see Iran, Syria, Palestine, Afghanistan, the list goes on) How can a responsible government function based on the fact that all their insane actions are because of the Jewish infidels, well, because the Jews are guilty and God said so. Is it ok to wipe out Israel, yeah why not, Allah said so, Is it ok to strap 12 kilo of C4 to yourself and walk into a crowded coffee shop yell out “god is great” and take out some innocent civilians? Yeah why not, Allah said so, he’ll even throw in a few virgins. These are just extreme examples of how religious ideology is used as an excuse to murder others who don’t agree with your religious ideology. The Christians, jews, muslims, they are all the same…blinded by the same lie…that god exists and that we do no need to take responsibility for our own actions because in the end it is all gods will, and god can't be wrong. How wrong we all are….Open your eyes and look at the truth - god isn’t there - you are just trying to fill an empty void. And remember, if you dont want to be held responsible for your actions...just blame the Jews.

52 I written this little poetry,, hope u like it: You need a kick on your behinds, but then you may like it!, You may ask for more, for the fingering is so joyfull, a little bit of cream, and you may find your glorious dream. You cut you clits and clitoris and you call it beauty. you like kiddie porn, shitty stuff and you call it cuttie. standing nudes in fron of us, grilling, crying, caliming happiness, what a joy for us, a tasteless taste, below the animalÂ’s waste, a heap of shit, buried in a pit. you are below animals, and unanimates. yeah sensore this...

53 Why all this hate between humans.

54 create a problem then whine about it. caucasians love to do this. i mean what did you expect to happen when you print cartoons like this? you should have expected this. you saw what happened in france. youre all so scared.... and quit smiling and dancing for the zionist machine, its bound to fall eventually. look at the numbers and do the math. hamas won. god loves democracy and irony.

55 Hehe, we totally hijacked this thread, well sort of! Boybinary: Right on! A fellow Canuck (and Muslim to boot!) here to show the world is not full of hatred, and certainly not all controled by Religon. Feels good, and makes me very proud to live in the true north, strong & free. Canadians rarely toot their own horn, it seems so, well, unCanadian to do so, but once and a while, it is good to to appreciate your country, especially seeing how a lot of the rest of world operates. Don't get me wrong, its not all roses up here, we do have our issues, luckily, religon is not one of them. Consider our leaders, who in elections, none would play the godcard, or be wickedly punished (I'm looking at you Stockwell Day!). I look down south during American elections, and it is god this & god that, god is on my side, bless america, etc. That does not fly up here, thankfully! I certainly do understand how lucky I am to live here, I am free to have my own opinions, if I was born, say, in the west bank, no doubt I would have a different additude, and I no doubt would belive in a religon. So I belive that the "ignorant" masses who buy in to religon, aren't nessessarily lemmings, more they have had no chance to understand the world as it is, rather learn everything thru the lens of religon, you see where I'm going with this...religon sucks, blah blah blah.

56 The letters posted in this web site and reply to my letter is concrete examples of how intolerant are the Europeans and the Americans. They canÂ’t even give a satisfactory reply to my questions. I am repeating my words here. By publishing blasphemous cartoons of the Prophet (p.b.u.h), the double standard of the Christian Europe is revealed. If these Europeans are really arguing for freedom of expression, then why they are unable to bear what others say about the holocaust, the myth. If publishing any thing in the name of freedom of expression, then it is my freedom of expression to doubt and deny the existence of the so called HOLOCAUST, THE MYTH. Denying holocaust is a crime in the so called DEMOCRATIC CHRISTIAN EUROPE. Shame on you Europeans. Your double standards and enmity towards Muslims are evident from the following. If you are hell bent on freedom of expression, why you are preventing muslim girls and women from wearing head scarves. Wearing head scarves is their freedom of expressing herself. But in European Countries it is not allowed. NOT DOUBLE STANDARD? You the Europeans and the US is pursuing a policy of double standards when it comes to democracy. For you, democracy means the party or the government whom you support should win the election. If the winners are your opponents, you will not allow them to form the Government. Examples: In Algeria , the Islamic Salvation Front won the election with huge majority. But the so called CHRISTIAN EUROPE, PARTICULARLY FRANCE, along with the worldÂ’s No. 1 terrorist country, the USA, interfered and made the Military take over the control. Now the country is under civil war. Who is responsible for that, no doubt, the CHRISTIAN EUROPE AND THE USA. What happened in Turkey? Even though the Islamic Pary led by Najmudheen Arbakan won the elections , you the Europeans with the help of military there, cancelled the elections and made the military to take control there also. Now these Europeans have got retaliation. Again in Turkey, Islamic Party is ruling. What happens in Egypt? EuropeÂ’s and AmericaÂ’s friend Husni Mubarak is ruling for so many years without any democracy. And he recently conducted an mock election. You Europeans and Americans call them Democracy? When your friends are making mockery of democracy you have no complaints. When your opponents wins the election, you try to topple those governments. What a double standard? Now you are aginst Hamas. HamasÂ’s victoy shocked you? You want them to recognize Israel? How can you recognize a country which is illegally occupying your territory and flouting all the resolutions passed by you in the Security Council? A country which is killing your people every day? You promised the Palestineans a state by 2005. What you have done to fulfill your promise? Will you stand as a silent spectator, if any other country illegally occupy your land and kill your people, destroying your agricultural crops, dividing your land by great walls and harassing you always? What did you do in Bosnia Herzegovina? You allowed the Serbs, the insane and maddest people in the world, to systematically kill the muslims of Bosnia, in the heart of Europe. When you were supplying arms to the Yugoslavians and the Serbs, you prevented the Bosnians from acquiring any weapons to defend them by bringing an arms embargo against them. And thereby joined with the Serbs in massacring hundreds of thousands of innocent muslims, including women and children. You raped muslim women of Bosnia. Bosnian Vice President was killed by the Serbs from dragging him out of the UN armoured vehicle in the presence of your European peace keeping force. They killed him in front of your Peace Keeping Force.. You deliberately assisted the Serbs to kill him.. Radovan Karadjic , the War Criminal is still being protected by you, the Europeans. You are supporting every terrorist acts of Israel, one of the terrorist countries in the World, second only to the US in terrorism. Israel is everyday killing innocent Palestinian civilians including women and children, grabbing their land, destroying their agricultural crops. Christian Europe is silently watching and allowing them to do all these crimes. They promised the Palestenians a state by 2005, Tony Blair, the Public Relations Officer of the Terrorist Bush promised all the Arab states that the Palastenian nation will be a reality by 2005, only to garner support for his and his master Bush's evil plan to invade Iraq, to steal their Oil wealth. What did you Europeans do thereafter? Now you are behind Iran, for accusing it of trying to make nuclear arsenal, when you all are having abundant weapons of mass destructions, including the nuclear warheads. And your foster son Israel is also having more than 200 nuclear warheads. And you are not doing anything against it, but accusing and threatening Iran for using nuclear energy only to produce electricity. You promised Iran all aid if they stop enriching uranium, but did not do anything for two years, and due to your cheating, when Iran started enriching uranium, you are now behind them with uncle Sam, but without taking any action against Israel..

57 Okay!

58 P.K. Ashfaq: I would be happy to answer your questions! Alrighty, lets start... 1. Intolerance, Re:America/Europe. Absolutely! Double standards & intolerance are hardly the providance of any "people/country", it is rampant accross the globe, I would imagine we all know people like this personaly, this comment is kinda a given.As for the Religous context, this is where I part ways with those who belive (in whatever), belonging to a Religon(any) will make you intolerant by design, how could one man who belives one thing truly understand another, who belives in something else. Because Religon is set up to herd your point of view, understanding anothers view is truly impossible for the true-belivers.

59 P.K. Ashfaq: 3.Democracy: Yeah, well, personaly, a true democracy does not exsist yet. Again, it is no surprise double standards exsist, it is everywhere, certainly not just Europe/America. Thing is, broken or not, Democracy is (for me & my family) the better choice, Theocratic governments are wicked scarey, folks making desisions based on religous dogma & doctirine should not be in power, anywhere (that includes a lot of Islamic states, and yes, even Bush)as commen sense is replaced by archaic thinking, and is bound by laws written for folks a long time ago...mind you, a lot of the laws still make sense, but there is some other ones...ie:Islam & Christianity, both seem to think of Women as property...woops! It is this thinking that holds back progress & enlightenment. 4. The west/Europe, and their manipulation of countries, this is nothing new, I'm certainly not in favour of it, but it is a reality of living in a giant sandbox. I use "sandbox" to invoke an idea of the dynamic of children and their "politics" in said sandbox, that and we have all been there. The big kid gets what he wants, not for right, rather for might. Ok, so what I'm saying is the superpowers of the world have the run of things right now, so other nations will, by our very nature consider how unfair it is, and it is, terribly. The good news (depending on where you are) is things do change, albeit slowly, chances are, there will be many more cycles of this, the U.S. will eventually lose its dominace, and some other country will come into power, history is quite clear on this... Maybe one day, Canada will be the big prick of the world...your right, not gonna happen! 5. Hamas winning the elections, good on 'em! Hopefully they can find comman ground, and I agree with Mr. Ashfuq it seems the U.S wants its cake & get to eat it, not likely! 6.Israel & nukes, zionists & the arabs who love to hate them...I suspect if Israel had no nukes, no doubt they would have been rubbed out by now, I am certainly not saying I agree with how Israel operates, not so much! I do see the Palistinian's plight, and I hope there is some resolution there without turning the middle east into a giant glass furnace. The arab states are not without fault either, and in the big picture, they need to either get along, or perish, and it is a good bet there will be no winners eventualy (see glass furnace comment). Iran and nukes, seems like a path to destruction for all conserned, I am really glad we live opposite the impending storm, and Mr. Ashfaq from India is quite right to be concerned, his country is too close to this desert armeggeddon, your people will suffer, and I suspect they will not care about whos right or wrong at that point. Phew! Next time Mr Ashfaq, please elaborate on your questions...now that was a joke! I hope I have given you some insight into the burning questions, from a heathen Westerner as well! I do not think the brash folks on this board insulting you do us justice, as well, you must as well learn to temper yourself, lest you get into stupid bikering, where the point is lost, things become personal, sharing ideas with our brothers accross the world can only help in understanding, I'm sure you can agree with that! P.S. Ghandi rocks!

60 Ashfaq: Sorry bout the crazy numeric screw up, the message board if freaking out about something with my # 2. Answer, I'll try again... 2. As for the what happened in WWII, events happened, and ones belief (or not) do not change what has happened, I say feel free to deny whatever you like, history will go on regardless, and it is on record that a lot of folks think it was fake, that is now history as well. Points of view are taken, recorded, whatever! Personaly, I belive in the extermination, as I have several sources (Grandfathers) who were actually there, have photos, and grim stories. But I also realize perception for a lot of folks is reality, take me, I am beliving in the atrocities on account of my grandfathers testiment (not even looking at books/media on the subject, just grandpa(s). My perception is a certain way, and it is still a notion, a preception, as I personally was not there, so it works both ways. Hope that helps some! Again, apologies to Mr Ashfaq for the confusing threads!

61 All of you need to take up Buddhism...youll live longer.

62 مرحبا ، هذا محمّد (سلام على ي ، أجل!). أنا يضطرّ قلت أنت الحقيقة - إسلام تمويه. هناك ما من الله. آسفة.

63 أيضا ، يحبّ أنا دانمرك.

64 Wait, let me see if I understand this...your name is really ASHFAQ? Is it just a coincidence that it closely resembles ASS FUCK? as in muslims are the ASS FUCK of society?

65 *cringe* Mr.Ashfaq: Don't let the trolls bait you! Please reply to my comments re: your questions. Its hard to soar like and eagle when your hangin' around a bunch of turkey's! -quote, some coffee mug...it's very applicable!

66 what is your point, loool? really, can you speak intelligently?

67 All Jew's must death!!!!

68 I believe that should be "All Jews must die!!!!" having the ' makes the "Jew" possessive of "must". Also, death is a noun. You are looking for a verb. By the way, Fuck you

69 Can't wait to join the contest Let's see how far "Free Speech" can go in this world >

70 Mr. Invisible man, I shall give you reply soon. As I am busy with my work I cant respond now. We will meet soon. Please give me your e-mail ID. Ashfaq

71 Mr. Invisible man, I shall give you reply soon. As I am busy with my work I cant respond now. We will meet soon. Please give me your e-mail ID. Regarding the comment by Loool, his comment reflect how cultureless he is. Replying in the same language is not on my agenda. Because Islam prohibits such abusive language. IT also prhohibits calling a person by his nick name. May Allah show you the path of rightousness. Ashfaq

72 Dear friends i was browsing your comments, and I found that 1. We must respect every ones faith 2.If you think Muhammed (PBUH), Cartoons makes you proud, I would suggest read About Life of Muhammed (PBUH), if any one of you, who deos not not know Muhammed (PBUH), have read and have the same opinion I would pray that Allah guide you. 3. Muhammed (PBUH), brought message of peace, to this world, we believe in every prophet, whether Jesus,Abrahm, david etc 4. We can never, ever mock any of our prophets. 5. If there is anything wrong done we all must wake up and condemn. 6. Jews, are more closer to muslim then christains, we know them they have always been problem makers, you christains knew this but don't wanna wake up , I am never against jews but against their venomous thinking. One day they will wipe europe or america and they will remove eurocaust or americaust from histry. 7.And remember no one can send missles or tom hawks against us, no one can wipe Islam, as this world is made for Islam, if we are not there, there is no meaning of any living creatures. 8. I want to answer one more comment of my bros, don't buy oil try taking it from us, you tried in iraq , but what happened, you are loosing much then you are able to take. 9. Every nation have few people who are terrorist but you can't blame a nation or religion I beleive not all jews are bad, like not all muslims are terrorists 10. Europeans wake up, I know Americans are in process of being alert from Isreal. 11. I don't support halocaust, or in favour of it whether it happened, as you european have killed more muslims in last 5 years then halocuast. 12. Muhammed (PBUH), is above all human kind so i believe we must repsect using abusive language. 13. be decent in expalinging your point others will listen 13.One more thing, we dont eat from money of petrol, if you would like visit us, we are more capable them all of the europe and america coe to india, we will show you how we eat, you people in US and europe are roaming like mad dogs in search of talents there.

73 Majid do you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of the one true living God. Not Gabrial or Lucifer disguised as Gabriel. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=4&version=9&context=chapter

74 Mr. Ashfaq: Please reply on this thread to my comments, when you have the time! Thanks! Majid: Thanks for your comments & shining a little decency in a rather low-brow thread. From an atheists point of view (mine), it is hard to wrap my head around religon of any stripe, and I realize for any of you to be a true beliver, you gotta have faith. Faith, unfortunatly for me, directly equates to applied ignorance, in that, you are following religous doctrine instead of comman sense. No where else can you get away with this. As well, the world has a lot of religons, all of them cannot be right, so it stands to reason, in the great scheme of things, some must be dead wrong. In fact, if you took all the concieved notions of religon, it is more likely (in cosmic terms) that we are way off. If there are such greater beings (god/gods), it also stands to reason we know nothing of them/him/her. I mean, consider how religons are started, way back when, most things could not be understood, which is a problem for humans, as we like to quantify & label all things, curiosity. So, lets take a hypothetical trip back in time to when man was still a hunter/gatherer, lived in loose villages, there very beginning of the "code". Perhaps a hunter kills a deer, and at that moment, a lightning storm erupts violently, scaring the poor hunter. He runs back and relays his tale to the chief. He determines the "sky" was angry that the hunter killed that deer, so from then on, the villagers sacraficed an animal to the skygod, before they hunt again...wouldn't ya know it, the sky is clear, the hunt goes on, and the root of religon has been born. I digress, I could go on at length about the nature of religon, but realistically, I know I am changing no ones mind, in fact, certain to offend some religous folks, althought, that is not my intention. It is very difficult to talk religon with religous folks, as they usually cannot muster critical thinking on there own religon (and there are volumes to why that is!), as anything but the religous line would seem blasphemous, or worse, enlightening!

75 Dear Mr. Invisible Man inthe Sky and all my Christian brothers and Jews, read this article about Prophet Mohammed, written by a HINDU. Mohammed The Prophet By Prof. K. S. Ramakrishna Rao, Head of the Department of Philosophy, Government College for Women University of Mysore, Mandya-571401 (Karnatika). Re-printed from "Islam and Modern age", Hydrabad, March 1978. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the desert of Arabia was Mohammad born, according to Muslim historians, on April 20, 571. The name means highly praised. He is to me the greatest mind among all the sons of Arabia. He means so much more than all the poets and kings that preceded him in that impenetrable desert of red sand. When he appeared Arabia was a desert -- a nothing. Out of nothing a new world was fashioned by the mighty spirit of Mohammad -- a new life, a new culture, a new civilization, a new kingdom which extended from Morocco to Indies and influenced the thought and life of three continents -- Asia, Africa and Europe. When I thought of writing on Mohammad the prophet, I was a bit hesitant because it was to write about a religion I do not profess and it is a delicate matter to do so for there are many persons professing various religions and belonging to diverse school of thought and denominations even in same religion. Though it is sometimes, claimed that religion is entirely personal yet it can not be gain-said that it has a tendency to envelop the whole universe seen as well unseen. It somehow permeates something or other our hearts, our souls, our minds their conscious as well as subconscious and unconscious levels too. The problem assumes overwhelming importance when there is a deep conviction that our past, present and future all hang by the soft delicate, tender silked cord. If we further happen to be highly sensitive, the center of gravity is very likely to be always in a state of extreme tension. Looked at from this point of view, the less said about other religion the better. Let our religions be deeply hidden and embedded in the resistance of our innermost hearts fortified by unbroken seals on our lips. But there is another aspect of this problem. Man lives in society. Our lives are bound with the lives of others willingly or unwillingly, directly or indirectly. We eat the food grown in the same soil, drink water, from the same the same spring and breathe the same air. Even while staunchly holding our own views, it would be helpful, if we try to adjust ourselves to our surroundings, if we also know to some extent, how the mind our neighbor moves and what the main springs of his actions are. From this angle of vision it is highly desirable that one should try to know all religions of the world, in the proper sprit, to promote mutual understanding and better appreciation of our neighborhood, immediate and remote. Further, our thoughts are not scattered as appear to be on the surface. They have got themselves crystallized around a few nuclei in the form of great world religions and living faiths that guide and motivate the lives of millions that inhabit this earth of ours. It is our duty, in one sense if we have the ideal of ever becoming a citizen of the world before us, to make a little attempt to know the great religions and system of philosophy that have ruled mankind. In spite of these preliminary remarks, the ground in these field of religion, where there is often a conflict between intellect and emotion is so slippery that one is constantly reminded of fools that rush in where angels fear to tread. It is also not so complex from another point of view. The subject of my writing is about the tenets of a religion which is historic and its prophet who is also a historic personality. Even a hostile critic like Sir William Muir speaking about the holy Quran says that. "There is probably in the world no other book which has remained twelve centuries with so pure text." I may also add Prophet Mohammad is also a historic personality, every event of whose life has been most carefully recorded and even the minutest details preserved intact for the posterity. His life and works are not wrapped in mystery. My work today is further lightened because those days are fast disappearing when Islam was highly misrepresented by some of its critics for reasons political and otherwise. Prof. Bevan writes in Cambridge Medieval History, "Those account of Mohammad and Islam which were published in Europe before the beginning of 19th century are now to be regarded as literary curiosities." My problem is to write this monograph is easier because we are now generally not fed on this kind of history and much time need be spent on pointing out our misrepresentation of Islam. The theory of Islam and Sword for instance is not heard now frequently in any quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam that there is no compulsion in religion is well known. Gibbon, a historian of world repute says, "A pernicious tenet has been imputed to Mohammadans, the duty of extirpating all the religions by sword." This charge based on ignorance and bigotry, says the eminent historian, is refuted by Quran, by history of Musalman conquerors and by their public and legal toleration of Christian worship. The great success of Mohammad's life had been effected by sheer moral force, without a stroke of sword. But in pure self-defense, after repeated efforts of conciliation had utterly failed, circumstances dragged him into the battlefield. But the prophet of Islam changed the whole strategy of the battlefield. The total number of casualties in all the wars that took place during his lifetime when the whole Arabian Peninsula came under his banner, does not exceed a few hundreds in all. But even on the battlefield he taught the Arab barbarians to pray, to pray not individually, but in congregation to God the Almighty. During the dust and storm of warfare whenever the time for prayer came, and it comes five times a every day, the congregation prayer had not to be postponed even on the battlefield. A party had to be engaged in bowing their heads before God while other was engaged with the enemy. After finishing the prayers, the two parties had to exchange their positions. To the Arabs, who would fight for forty years on the slight provocation that a camel belonging to the guest of one tribe had strayed into the grazing land belonging to other tribe and both sides had fought till they lost 70,000 lives in all; threatening the extinction of both the tribes to such furious Arabs, the Prophet of Islam taught self-control and discipline to the extent of praying even on the battlefield. In an aged of barbarism, the Battlefield itself was humanized and strict instructions were issued not to cheat, not to break trust, not to mutilate, not to kill a child or woman or an old man, not to hew down date palm nor burn it, not to cut a fruit tree, not to molest any person engaged in worship. His own treatment with his bitterest enemies is the noblest example for his followers. At the conquest of Mecca, he stood at the zenith of his power. The city which had refused to listen to his mission, which had tortured him and his followers, which had driven him and his people into exile and which had unrelentingly persecuted and boycotted him even when he had taken refuge in a place more than 200 miles away, that city now lay at his feet. By the laws of war he could have justly avenged all the cruelties inflicted on him and his people. But what treatment did he accord to them? Mohammad's heart flowed with affection and he declared, "This day, there is no REPROOF against you and you are all free." "This day" he proclaimed, "I trample under my feet all distinctions between man and man, all hatred between man and man." This was one of the chief objects why he permitted war in self defense, that is to unite human beings. And when once this object was achieved, even his worst enemies were pardoned. Even those who killed his beloved uncle, Hamazah, mangled his body, ripped it open, even chewed a piece of his liver. The principles of universal brotherhood and doctrine of the equality of mankind which he proclaimed represents one very great contribution of Mohammad to the social uplift of humanity. All great religions have preached the same doctrine but the prophet of Islam had put this theory into actual practice and its value will be fully recognized, perhaps centuries hence, when international consciousness being awakened, racial prejudices may disappear and greater brotherhood of humanity come into existence. Miss. Sarojini Naidu speaking about this aspect of Islam says, "It was the first religion that preached and practiced democracy; for in the mosque, when the minaret is sounded and the worshipers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and the king kneel side by side and proclaim, God alone is great." The great poetess of India continues, "I have been struck over and over again by this indivisible unity of Islam that makes a man instinctively a brother. When you meet an Egyptian, an Algerian and Indian and a Turk in London, it matters not that Egypt is the motherland of one and India is the motherland of another." Mahatma Gandhi, in his inimitable style, says "Some one has said that Europeans in South Africa dread the advent Islam -- Islam that civilized Spain, Islam that took the torch light to Morocco and preached to the world the Gospel of brotherhood. The Europeans of South Africa dread the Advent of Islam. They may claim equality with the white races. They may well dread it, if brotherhood is a sin. If it is equality of colored races then their dread is well founded." Every year, during the Haj, the world witnesses the wonderful spectacle of this international Exhibition of Islam in leveling all distinctions of race, color and rank. Not only the Europeans, the African, the Arabian, the Persian, the Indians, the Chinese all meet together in Medina as members of one divine family, but they are clad in one dress every person in two simple pieces of white seamless cloth, one piece round the loin the other piece over the shoulders, bare head without pomp or ceremony, repeating "Here am I O God; at thy command; thou art one and alone; Here am I." Thus there remains nothing to differentiate the high from the low and every pilgrim carries home the impression of the international significance of Islam. In the opinion of Prof. Hurgronje "the league of nations founded by prophet of Islam put the principle of international unity of human brotherhood on such Universal foundations as to show candle to other nations." In the words of same Professor "the fact is that no nation of the world can show a parallel to what Islam has done the realization of the idea of the League of Nations." The prophet of Islam brought the reign of democracy in its best form. The Caliph Caliph Ali and the son in-law of the prophet, the Caliph Mansur, Abbas, the son of Caliph Mamun and many other caliphs and kings had to appear before the judge as ordinary men in Islamic courts. Even today we all know how the black Negroes were treated by the civilized white races. Consider the state of BILAL, a Negro Slave, in the days of the prophet of Islam nearly 14 centuries ago. The office of calling Muslims to prayer was considered to be of status in the early days of Islam and it was offered to this Negro slave. After the conquest of Mecca, the Prophet ordered him to call for prayer and the Negro slave, with his black color and his thick lips, stood over the roof of the holy mosque at Mecca called the Ka'ba the most historic and the holiest mosque in the Islamic world, when some proud Arabs painfully cried loud, "Oh, this black Negro Slave, woe be to him. He stands on the roof of holy Ka'ba to call for prayer." At that moment, the prophet announced to the world, this verse of the holy QURAN for the first time. "O mankind, surely we have created you, families and tribes, so you may know one another. Surely, the most honorable of you with God is MOST RIGHTEOUS AMONG you. Surely, God is Knowing, Aware." And these words of the holy Quran created such a mighty transformation that the Caliph of Islam, the purest of Arabs by birth, offered their daughter in marriage to this Negro Slave, and whenever, the second Caliph of Islam, known to history as Umar the great, the commander of faithful, saw this Negro slave, he immediately stood in reverence and welcomed him by "Here come our master; Here come our lord." What a tremendous change was brought by Quran in the Arabs, the proudest people at that time on the earth. This is the reason why Goethe, the greatest of German poets, speaking about the Holy Quran declared that, "This book will go on exercising through all ages a most potent influence." This is also the reason why George Bernard Shaw says, "If any religion has a chance or ruling over England, say, Europe, within the next 100 years, it is Islam". It is this same democratic spirit of Islam that emancipated women from the bondage of man. Sir Charles Edward Archibald Hamilton says "Islam teaches the inherent sinlessness of man. It teaches that man and woman and woman have come from the same essence, posses the same soul and have been equipped with equal capabilities for intellectual, spiritual and moral attainments." The Arabs had a very strong tradition that one who can smite with the spear and can wield the sword would inherit. But Islam came as the defender of the weaker sex and entitled women to share the inheritance of their parents. It gave women, centuries ago right of owning property, yet it was only 12 centuries later , in 1881, that England, supposed to be the cradle of democracy adopted this institution of Islam and the act was called "the married woman act", but centuries earlier, the Prophet of Islam had proclaimed that "Woman are twin halves of men. The rights of women are sacred. See that women maintained rights granted to them." Islam is not directly concerned with political and economic systems, but indirectly and in so far as political and economic affairs influence man's conduct, it does lay down some very important principles to govern economic life. According to Prof. Massignon, it maintains the balance between exaggerated opposites and has always in view the building of character which is the basis of civilization. This is secured by its law of inheritance, by an organized system of charity known as Zakat, and by regarding as illegal all anti-social practices in the economic field like monopoly, usury, securing of predetermined unearned income and increments, cornering markets, creating monopolies, creating an artificial scarcity of any commodity in order to force the prices to rise. Gambling is illegal. Contribution to schools, to places of worship, hospitals, digging of wells, opening of orphanages are highest acts of virtue. Orphanages have sprung for the first time, it is said, under the teaching of the prophet of Islam. The world owes its orphanages to this prophet born an orphan. "Good all this" says Carlyle about Mohammad. "The natural voice of humanity, of pity and equity, dwelling in the heart of this wild son of nature, speaks." A historian once said a great man should be judged by three tests: Was he found to be of true metel by his contemporaries ? Was he great enough to raise above the standards of his age ? Did he leave anything as permanent legacy to the world at large ? This list may be further extended but all these three tests of greatness are eminently satisfied to the highest degree in case of prophet Mohammad. Some illustrations of the last two have already been mentioned. The first is: Was the Prophet of Islam found to be of true metel by his contemporaries? Historical records show that all the contemporaries of Mohammad both friends foes, acknowledged the sterling qualities, the spotless honesty, the noble virtues, the absolute sincerity and every trustworthiness of the apostle of Islam in all walks of life and in every sphere of human activity. Even the Jews and those who did not believe in his message, adopted him as the arbiter in their personal disputes by virtue of his perfect impartiality. Even those who did not believe in his message were forced to say "O Mohammad, we do not call you a liar, but we deny him who has given you a book and inspired you with a message." They thought he was one possessed. They tried violence to cure him. But the best of them saw that a new light had dawned on him and they hastened him to seek the enlightenment. It is a notable feature in the history of prophet of Islam that his nearest relation, his beloved cousin and his bosom friends, who know him most intimately, were not thoroughly imbued with the truth of his mission and were convinced of the genuineness of his divine inspiration. If these men and women, noble, intelligent, educated and intimately acquainted with his private life had perceived the slightest signs of deception, fraud, earthliness, or lack of faith in him, Mohammad's moral hope of regeneration, spiritual awakening, and social reform would all have been foredoomed to a failure and whole edifice would have crumbled to pieces in a moment. On the contrary, we find that devotion of his followers was such that he was voluntarily acknowledged as dictator of their lives. They braved for him persecutions and danger; they trusted, obeyed and honored him even in the most excruciating torture and severest mental agony caused by excommunication even unto death. Would this have been so, had they noticed the slightest backsliding in their master? Read the history of the early converts to Islam, and every heart would melt at the sight of the brutal treatment of innocent Muslim men and women. Sumayya, an innocent women, is cruelly torn into pieces with spears. An example is made of "Yassir whose legs are tied to two camels and the beast were are driven in opposite directions", Khabbab bin Arth is made lie down on the bed of burning coal with the brutal legs of their merciless tyrant on his breast so that he may not move and this makes even the fat beneath his skin melt. "Khabban bin Adi is put to death in a cruel manner by mutilation and cutting off his flesh piece-meal." In the midst of his tortures, being asked weather he did not wish Mohammad in his place while he was in his house with his family, the sufferer cried out that he was gladly prepared to sacrifice himself his family and children and why was it that these sons and daughters of Islam not only surrendered to their prophet their allegiance but also made a gift of their hearts and souls to their master? Is not the intense faith and conviction on part of immediate followers of Mohammad, the noblest testimony to his sincerity and to his utter self-absorption in his appointed task? And these men were not of low station or inferior mental caliber. Around him in quite early days, gathered what was best and noblest in Mecca, its flower and cream, men of position, rank, wealth and culture, and from his own kith and kin, those who knew all about his life. All the first four Caliphs, with their towering personalities, were converts of this period. The Encyclopedia Brittanica says that "Mohammad is the most successful of all Prophets and religious personalities". But the success was not the result of mere accident. It was not a hit of fortune. It was a recognition of fact that he was found to be true metal by his contemporaries. It was the result of his admirable and all compelling personality. The personality of Mohammad! It is most difficult to get into the truth of it. Only a glimpse of it I can catch. What a dramatic succession of picturesque scenes. There is Mohammad the Prophet, there is Mohammad the General; Mohammad the King; Mohammad the Warrior; Mohammad the Businessman; Mohammad the Preacher; Mohammad the Philosopher; Mohammad the Statesman; Mohammad the Orator; Mohammad the reformer; Mohammad the Refuge of orphans; Mohammad the Protector of slaves; Mohammad the Emancipator of women; Mohammad the Law-giver; Mohammad the Judge; Mohammad the Saint. And in all these magnificent roles, in all these departments of human activities, he is like, a hero.. Orphanhood is extreme of helplessness and his life upon this earth began with it; Kingship is the height of the material power and it ended with it. From an orphan boy to a persecuted refugee and then to an overlord, spiritual as well as temporal, of a whole nation and Arbiter of its destinies, with all its trials and temptations, with all its vicissitudes and changes, its lights and shades, its up and downs, its terror and splendor, he has stood the fire of the world and came out unscathed to serve as a model in every face of life. His achievements are not limited to one aspect of life, but cover the whole field of human conditions. If for instance, greatness consist in the purification of a nation, steeped in barbarism and immersed in absolute moral darkness, that dynamic personality who has transformed, refined and uplifted an entire nation, sunk low as the Arabs were, and made them the torch-bearer of civilization and learning, has every claim to greatness. If greatness lies in unifying the discordant elements of society by ties of brotherhood and charity, the prophet of the desert has got every title to this distinction. If greatness consists in reforming those warped in degrading and blind superstition and pernicious practices of every kind, the prophet of Islam has wiped out superstitions and irrational fear from the hearts of millions. If it lies in displaying high morals, Mohammad has been admitted by friend and foe as Al Amin, or the faithful. If a conqueror is a great man, here is a person who rose from helpless orphan and an humble creature to be the ruler of Arabia, the equal to Chosroes and Caesars, one who founded great empire that has survived all these 14 centuries. If the devotion that a leader commands is the criterion of greatness, the prophet's name even today exerts a magic charm over millions of souls, spread all over the world. He had not studied philosophy in the school of Athens of Rome, Persia, India, or China. Yet, He could proclaim the highest truths of eternal value to mankind. Illiterate himself, he could yet speak with an eloquence and fervor which moved men to tears, to tears of ecstasy. Born an orphan blessed with no worldly goods, he was loved by all. He had studied at no military academy; yet he could organize his forces against tremendous odds and gained victories through the moral forces which he marshaled. Gifted men with genius for preaching are rare. Descartes included the perfect preacher among the rarest kind in the world. Hitler in his Mein Kamp has expressed a similar view. He says "A great theorist is seldom a great leader. An Agitator is more likely to posses these qualities. He will always be a great leader. For leadership means ability to move masses of men. The talents to produce ideas has nothing in common with capacity for leadership." "But", he says, "The Union of theorists, organizer and leader in one man, is the rarest phenomenon on this earth; Therein consists greatness." In the person of the Prophet of Islam the world has seen this rarest phenomenon walking on the earth, walking in flesh and blood. And more wonderful still is what the reverend Bosworth Smith remarks, "Head of the state as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but, he was pope without the pope's claims, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without an standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue. If ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by a right divine It was Mohammad, for he had all the power without instruments and without its support. He cared not for dressing of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life." After the fall of Mecca, more than one million square miles of land lay at his feet, Lord of Arabia, he mended his own shoes and coarse woolen garments, milked the goats, swept the hearth, kindled the fire and attended the other menial offices of the family. The entire town of Medina where he lived grew wealthy in the later days of his life. Everywhere there was gold and silver in plenty and yet in those days of prosperity many weeks would elapse without a fire being kindled in the hearth of the king of Arabia, His food being dates and water. His family would go hungry many nights successively because they could not get anything to eat in the evening. He slept on no soften bed but on a palm mat, after a long busy day to spend most of his night in prayer, often bursting with tears before his creator to grant him strength to discharge his duties. As the reports go, his voice would get choked with weeping and it would appear as if a cooking pot was on fire and boiling had commenced. On the very day of his death his only assets were few coins a part of which went to satisfy a debt and rest was given to a needy person who came to his house for charity. The clothes in which he breathed his last had many patches. The house from where light had spread to the world was in darkness because there was no oil in the lamp. Circumstances changed, but the prophet of God did not. In victory or in defeat, in power or in adversity, in affluence or in indigence, he is the same man, disclosed the same character. Like all the ways and laws of God, Prophets of God are unchangeable. An honest man, as the saying goes, is the noblest work of God, Mohammad was more than honest. He was human to the marrow of his bones. Human sympathy, human love was the music of his soul. To serve man, to elevate man, to purify man, to educate man, in a word to humanize man-this was the object of his mission, the be-all and end all of his life. In thought, in word, in action he had the good of humanity as his sole inspiration, his sole guiding principle. He was most unostentatious and selfless to the core. What were the titles he assumed? Only true servant of God and His Messenger. Servant first, and then a messenger. A Messenger and prophet like many other prophets in every part of the world, some known to you, many not known you. If one does not believe in any of these truths one ceases to be a Muslim. It is an article of faith. "Looking at the circumstances of the time and unbounded reverence of his followers" says a western writer "the most miraculous thing about Mohammad is, that he never claimed the power of working miracles." Miracles were performed but not to propagate his faith and were attributed entirely to God and his inscrutable ways. He would plainly say that he was a man like others. He had no treasures of earth or heaven. Nor did he claim to know the secrets of that lie in womb of future. All this was in an age when miracles were supposed to be ordinary occurrences, at the back and call of the commonest saint, when the whole atmosphere was surcharged with supernaturalism in Arabia and outside Arabia. He turned the attention of his followers towards the study of nature and its laws, to understand them and appreciate the Glory of God. The Quran says, "God did not create the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in play. He did not create them all but with the truth. But most men do not know." The world is not illusion, nor without purpose. It has been created with the truth. The number of verses inviting close observation of nature are several times more than those that relate to prayer, fasting, pilgrimage etc. all put together. The Muslim under its influence began to observe nature closely and this give birth to the scientific spirit of the observation and experiment which was unknown to the Greeks. While the Muslim Botanist Ibn Baitar wrote on Botany after collecting plants from all parts of the world, described by Myer in his Gesch. der Botanikaa-s, a monument of industry, while Al Byruni traveled for forty years to collect mineralogical specimens, and Muslim Astronomers made some observations extending even over twelve years. Aristotle wrote on Physics without performing a single experiment, wrote on natural history, carelessly stating without taking the trouble to ascertain the most verifiable fact that men have more teeth than animal. Galen, the greatest authority on classical anatomy informed that the lower jaw consists of two bones, a statement which is accepted unchallenged for centuries till Abdul Lateef takes the trouble to examine a human skeleton. After enumerating several such instances, Robert Priffault concludes in his well known book The making of humanity, "The debt of our science to the Arabs does not consist in starting discovers or revolutionary theories. Science owes a great more to Arabs culture; it owes is existence." The same writer says "The Greeks systematized, generalized and theorized but patient ways of investigation, the accumulation of positive knowledge, the minute methods of science, detailed and prolonged observation, experimental inquiry, were altogether alien to Greek temperament. What we call science arose in Europe as result of new methods of investigation, of the method of experiment, observation, measurement, of the development of Mathematics in form unknown to the Greeks. That spirit and these methods, concludes the same author, were introduced into the European world by Arabs." It is the same practical character of the teaching of Prophet Mohammad that gave birth to the scientific spirit, that has also sanctified the daily labors and the so called mundane affairs. The Quran says that God has created man to worship him but the word worship has a connotation of its own. Gods worship is not confined to prayer alone, but every act that is done with the purpose of winning approval of God and is for the benefit of the humanity comes under its purview. Islam sanctifies life and all its pursuits provided they are performed with honesty, justice and pure intents. It obliterates the age-long distinction between the sacred and profane. The Quran says if you eat clean things and thank God for it, it is an act of worship. It is saying of the prophet of Islam that Morsel of food that one places in the mouth of his wife is an act of virtue to be rewarded by God. Another tradition of the Prophet says "He who is satisfying the desire of his heart will be rewarded by God provided the methods adopted are permissible." A person was listening to him exclaimed 'O Prophet of God, he is answering the calls of passions, is only satisfying the craving of his heart. Forthwith came the reply, "Had he adopted an awful method for the satisfaction of his urge, he would have been punished; then why should he not be rewarded for following the right course." This new conception of religion that it should also devote itself to the betterment of this life rather than concern itself exclusively with super mundane affairs, has led to a new orientation of moral values. Its abiding influence on the common relations of mankind in the affairs of every day life, its deep power over the masses, its regulation of their conception of rights and duty, its suitability and adaptability to the ignorant savage and the wise philosopher are characteristic features of the teaching of the Prophet of Islam. But it should be most carefully born in mind this stress on good actions is not the sacrifice correctness of faith. While there are various school of thought, one praising faith at the expense of deeds, another exhausting various acts to the detriment of correct belief, Islam is based on correct faith and righteous actions. Means are important as the end and ends are as important as the means. It is an organic Unity. Together they live and thrive. Separate them and both decay and die. In Islam faith can not be divorced from the action. Right knowledge should be transferred into right action to produce the right results. How often the words came in Quran -- Those who believe and do good thing, they alone shall enter paradise. Again and again, not less than fifty times these words are repeated as if too much stress can not be laid on them. Contemplation is encouraged but mere contemplation is not the goal. Those who believe and do nothing can not exist in Islam. These who believe and do wrong are inconceivable. Divine law is the law of effort and not of ideals. It chalks out for the men the path of eternal progress from knowledge to action and from action to satisfaction. But what is the correct faith from which right action spontaneously proceeds resulting in complete satisfaction. Here the central doctrine of Islam is the Unity of God. There is no God but God is the pivot from which hangs the whole teaching and practice of Islam. He is unique not only as regards his divine being but also as regards his divine attributes. As regards the attributes of God, Islam adopts here as in other things too, the law of golden mean. It avoids on the one hand, the view of God which divests the divine being of every attribute and rejects, on the other, the view which likens him to things material. The Quran says, On the one hand, there is nothing which is like him, on the other , it affirms that he is Seeing, Hearing, Knowing. He is the King who is without a stain of fault or deficiency, the mighty ship of His power floats upon the ocean of justice and equity. He is the Beneficent, the Merciful. He is the Guardian over all. Islam does not stop with this positive statement. It adds further which is its most special characteristic, the negative aspects of problem. There is also no one else who is guardian over everything. He is the meander of every breakage, and no one else is the meander of any breakage. He is the restorer of every loss and no one else is the restorer of any loss what-so-over. There is no God but one God, above any need, the maker of bodies, creator of souls, the Lord of the day of judgment, and in short, in the words of Quran, to him belong all excellent qualities. Regarding the position of man in relation to the Universe, the Quran says: "God has made subservient to you whatever is on the earth or in universe. You are destined to rule over the Universe." But in relation to God, the Quran says: "O man God has bestowed on you excellent faculties and has created life and death to put you to test in order to see whose actions are good and who has deviated from the right path." In spite of free will which he enjoys, to some extent, every man is born under certain circumstances and continues to live under certain circumstances beyond his control. With regard to this God says, according to Islam, it is my will to create any man under condition that seem best to me. cosmic plans finite mortals can not fully comprehend. But I will certainly test you in prosperity as well in adversity, in health as well as in sickness, in heights as well as in depths. My ways of testing differ from man to man, from hour to hour. In adversity do not despair and do resort to unlawful means. It is but a passing phase. In prosperity do not forget God. God-gifts are given only as trusts. You are always on trial, every moment on test. In this sphere of life there is not to reason why, there is but to do and die. If you live in accordance with God; and if you die, die in the path of God. You may call it fatalism. but this type of fatalism is a condition of vigorous increasing effort, keeping you ever on the alert. Do not consider this temporal life on earth as the end of human existence. There is a life after death and it is eternal. Life after death is only a connection link, a door that opens up hidden reality of life. Every action in life however insignificant, produces a lasting effect. It is correctly recorded somehow. Some of the ways of God are known to you, but many of his ways are hidden from you. What is hidden in you and from you in this world will be unrolled and laid open before you in the next. the virtuous will enjoy the blessing of God which the eye has not seen, nor has the ear heard, nor has it entered into the hearts of men to conceive of they will march onward reaching higher and higher stages of evolution. Those who have wasted opportunity in this life shall under the inevitable law, which makes every man taste of what he has done, be subjugated to a course of treatment of the spiritual diseases which they have brought about with their own hands. Beware, it is terrible ordeal. Bodily pain is torture, you can bear somehow. Spiritual pain is hell, you will find it almost unbearable. Fight in this life itself the tendencies of the spirit prone to evil, tempting to lead you into iniquities ways. Reach the next stage when the self-accusing sprit in your conscience is awakened and the soul is anxious to attain moral excellence and revolt against disobedience. This will lead you to the final stage of the soul at rest, contented with God, finding its happiness and delight in him alone. The soul no more stumbles. The stage of struggle passes away. Truth is victorious and falsehood lays down its arms. All complexes will then be resolved. Your house will not be divided against itself. Your personality will get integrated round the central core of submission to the will of God and complete surrender to his divine purpose. All hidden energies will then be released. The soul then will have peace. God will then address you: "O thou soul that art at rest, and restest fully contented with thy Lord return to thy Lord. He pleased with thee and thou pleased with him; So enter among my servants and enter into my paradise." This is the final goal for man; to become, on the, one hand, the master of the universe and on the other, to see that his soul finds rest in his Lord, that not only his Lord will be pleased with him but that he is also pleased with his Lord. Contentment, complete contentment, satisfaction, complete satisfaction, peace, complete peace. The love of God is his food at this stage and he drinks deep at the fountain of life. Sorrow and defeat do not overwhelm him and success does not find him in vain and exulting. The western nations are only trying to become the master of the Universe. But their souls have not found peace and rest. Thomas Carlyle, struck by this philosophy of life writes "and then also Islam-that we must submit to God; that our whole strength lies in resigned submission to Him, whatsoever he does to us, the thing he sends to us, even if death and worse than death, shall be good, shall be best; we resign ourselves to God." The same author continues "If this be Islam, says Goethe, do we not all live in Islam?" Carlyle himself answers this question of Goethe and says "Yes, all of us that have any moral life, we all live so. This is yet the highest wisdom that heaven has revealed to our earth." Azmat N. Khan Sponsored by the MSA.

76 WoW! That was a long and intersting answer Mr. Ashfaq! Good thing I made a tea! I found the bit about the sciences and how Mohammed crafted the islamic application to higher learning key, good stuff that! It was not the reply I was looking for though, as I was originally replying to several of your points, specifically. But very good insite into Islam nonetheless. The Code Reading that I was struck (in my heathen mind) with the feeling that Islam is same as other religons, in that, while they all have some elements of the code, it is mashed togather with superstition & myth of old. The code, is simply the original framework humans needed to follow to be successful when living in groups, animals do it to, with there own versions code. These things are, well, things that seem wrong, killing folks, stealing, these are wrong no matter what you belive, correct? Enter any religon, and the code now comes with stories, to help understand & illustrate the codes obvious rules. Sub-sets & contradiction come into play, interuprations and reality is split, from day to day living, and notions of judging gods that oversee ones every move (that sounds a lot like Santa Claus...!) In a way, the religous notion of the code effectively makes the beliver imediatly subserviant to the going doctrine, elinating free will to a degree, lest he be eternaly damned...I think that is a very affective way of enforcement. But it is frightening zealotry that is terrible, warring over religous ideologies, and the faithful follow the directions of apparently a Universal intelligence, who does not give interviews. If I can just vear off wickedly and pose another interesting hypothetical question, it may seem slightly absurb, but please, humour me! What would be the faithfuls answer to other civilzations somewhere in space? Ok, now what if said aliens had a different religon, but theirs is like, a million years old, and seems to be providing some real results. Would you bail & go to the obviously more divine? What if they are all 80' tall, and don't want to be called a infidel, now what do you do! Ok, a little bit of wackyness at the end, no reason we can't have it a little lighter sometimes!

77 The free press could take up Iranians on their desire to publish cartoons on the Holocaust. At first, the notion of a cartoon on the Holocaust seems blasphemous. But, on the second thought, there are some aspects of the Holocaust that could fit on a cartoon. Imagine the pictures of: 1) The muifti of Jerusalem urging Hitler to implement the "final solution". 2) Free nations of Europe and America closing their doors to Jews trying to escapoe Nazis. 3) Good citizens of occupied countries gloating over the demise of Jews being herded to Ghettos, eager to seize their property. 4) British air force refusing to bomb the railroads to death camps: "There are more important targets..." 5) Nazi camp survivors being thrown by Bruitish to concentration camps for their desire to immigrate to Palestine. 6) A Swiss bank denying claims on Holocaust victims' life insurances: "Where are the death certificates from the camps?" 7) The late Simon Wiesenthal fishing Eichman out from his hiding place with a sarcastic remark like "There is no Iranian president out there yet to argue for your innocence!" My favorite: Iranian president himself staring at many volumes of the Nuremberg tribunal documents, muttering: "Still, there is not enough evidence..." I cannot draw. I offer these ideas free to any cartoonist talented enough to draw the cartoons, and to any newspaper courageous enough to publish them.

78 The point everyone seems to be missing here is that, The Europeans are doing something that is illigal in Islamic nations, now the Iranaian paper is going to do something thats illigal (prison illigal) in the west... I basiclly go to a Jewish school, Have 100s of jewish friends but sadlly the Iranian paper is making a very convincing argument. Btw, dont be iggorant rambling on thinking Iran is a 2nd Germany (WW2), In Iran there is a jewish repesentative in parliment, also a christian representative, well presented compaired to the 98% muslim population of the country... Peace, and always check ur facts.

79 here on earth everything changes with time but over the years that man has walked this planet his thought has not evolved. mankind still fights for justice. but for justice to function requires a timeless environment. an environment that leaves no void for a need to change in time. but here on earth everything changes with time. justice can only be acheived when there is timelessness...

80 Ashfaq. According to your lengthy tirade about Mohammed, I find it strangely coincidental that Mohammed and one Adolf Hitler seem to share the same birthday. Both were born on April 20, 571 and April 20, 1889 respectively. Just a little nugget of historical fact. Maybe someone should make a cartoon about that and kill two birds with one stone.

1 Outstanding catch, only in need of one addendum. God wrote down the ten commandments, is it blasphemy to reject the word of God? Breaking the individual commandments is bad in so far as they're concerned but what happens when they reject the commandments outright? I would make sure that those 72 virgins got a medical checkup if I were smart.

2 I’m tired of reading the same line in damn near every thread related to the cartoons, where the liars say Islam “respects all religions.” What religion "respects all other religions?" Name one that respects any other religion, for that matter. The whole point of sectarianism is not that the sects "respect" one another, but that none is able to get such a stranglehold on the state that it can use the state's resources to crush the others. I'm not sure whether Islam is less tolerant, but suppose that depends on the sect of Islam we're talking about. I'm not sure how far one can get with this religion-bashing thing. But as a practical matter shouldn't we try to differentiate between sects that at least tolerate the idea of religious diversity and those that don't? Not that they "honor it" mind you. Just that they're willing to put up with it. But anyway, you guys are proving my point. There is large-scale willingness to just consign the entire Muslim world to the dust bin, because of the reaction against a few cartoons. Listen Muslims, can you just imagine what this would be like were any of your holy warriors successful enough to destroy an American city, or even a neighborhood? Still think it's a good idea to get the bomb? The only reason things don't look worse for you in the West is that your holy warriors just haven't been very successful. And for that you can thank Allah and George Bush, not to mention a few apostate Muslims.

3 Demosophist, we're not consigning them to the dustbin, they're doing it all themselves. That post smacked of apologetics.

4 Thank you for reminding me of this. I reread all of the Chronicles of Narnia, and you might be interested in reading "The Last Battle". It might take you a day, and you will be surprised by its common day relevance especially where taqiyya is concerned. C.S. Lewis knew this was coming and how it would come long before I was even born...

5 Re #17: does that mean you can't covet your Kuwaiti neighbour's oil, cars, tvs, gold...

6 Why don't you go over to Beth's site and debate it with her, Demosophist? I didn't write that, she did. But anyway, you guys are proving my point. There is large-scale willingness to just consign the entire Muslim world to the dust bin, because of the reaction against a few cartoons. Sorry, but I don't know how old you are, but I clearly remember Munich in 1972, the oil embargo of 1973, and the hostage crisis of 1979. My perspective on Islam goes alot farther back than just this current cartoon issue, Demosophist. Finally, it's not "religion bashing." It's "getting out the facts."

7 abu hamza convicted by british court for incitement to murder! woohoo!

8 I'm going to do a little "religion bashing" here. This is just my own opinion, but Mohammed was just an egomaniac with control issues. And he was smart too. I mean "real" genious. He coupled his ability to imagine some pretty advanced ideas about the universe and mathematics (even though his math doesn't add up when disbursing inheritances among the family - and in other instances) with his own perversities and personality defects to create an unquestionable self-made existence. He proclaimed himself a prophet by playing on the superstitions that were prevalent at the time. He proceeded to destroy knowledge gained by others so that his Koran was the only word. The destruction of books, scrolls and other sources of knowledge were routinely destroyed by him and his followers for centuries after. And look at some of the most ridiculous proclamations he made: * Angels won't visit a house with a dog in it? * Jews were turned into rats? His proof? Rats don't drink camel's milk and neither did Jews. * The devil resides in your nose while you sleep? (there are many, many more) And this "word" is eternal and must never be questioned? And to this whole issue about not allowing any depiction of Mohammed; this was NOT Allah's word. This rule was made up by other men after Mohammed died. Funny how God's edicts always benefitted Mohammed over everyone else. Even his followers. He got the pick of women after their husband's were killed. He got a full fifth of all the booty from conquests. He claimed to speak for God yet, changed the rules regularly to suit himself, and after he died it was proclaimed that Muslims live their lives patterned after his. And there you have it.

9

10 Actually, I have heard of one religion that is tolerant of all others. I is called something like the Church of Latter Day Messengers, or something like that. It seems that they believe all religions are based on messengers of hope and salvation, and are told at different times, in different places, to different people. They maintain it is just the same message and has been that way since the dawn of time. I seem to recall that they thought John Lennon was one of the last(est). Something about "love being all you need" and the "inability to purchase love". Their central tenent around which every thing revolves is the belief that 'War is a crime' (in other words 'peace') and that this is the revelation foreseen and foretold by Nostradamus, amongst others. I happened to overhear a conversation about it on the bus in from Yass (about 45 minutes out of Canberra) last Monday. It was a probably a crack-pot fringe sect. Rupert Murdoch has a farm out that way, if that means anything. Peace and Out Jack

1 They are of the sect of jews that were kafiyehs instead of kippas.

2 I loved the slogan...Islam is indeed a cancer. There may be a billion muslims but they can't fight or organise an army apart from cowardly terrorist attacks. There is no military might in the muslim world and little old Israel will continue kicking their sorry backsides. Mohammed passed on a crap fighting tradition to his useless warriors.

3 Are you sure this isn't a Photoshop, I mean.. these people don't look very much like Jews, more Arab...funny!

1 Here's my dilemma. a) I'm for the legalization of prostitution. b) I believe prostitution is immoral. So, this gets it 180 degrees backward! I want religious authorities to condemn prostitution and secular authorities to keep it legal. I don't want a state (like Iran) which legally outlaws prostitution but then comes up with essentially its equivalent, yet wrapped in the guise of relgion.

2 I believe that about 99% of what our government does is immoral and unconstitutional, but it mostly isn't illegal. Morality and legality rarely cross paths.

3 IM: And all this time i thought that our laws were based on Christian morality...i think i better reread my year 11 legal studies textbook

4 Matthew, originally they were based on Christian morality. Today, they bear little resemblance to one another. The laws these days are based on "do whatever you want because not only are all men equal, so are their ideas".

5 Rusty, federally mandated legal prostitution would lead to more irresponsibility, more laws and more cost to taxpayers who don't "indulge". It would be one thing to say, "Go ahead, but you're on your own." But that's not what would come of it.

6 Our laws, i.e., the Constitution, were more directly based on Enlightenment ideals than Christian morality, which is specifically evinced by the fact that in the entire Constitution, there is no mention of God, Jesus, or anyone else, and religion is only mentioned in that it may neither be promoted nor suppressed by the government. Now, this does not mean that Christian morals had no influence upon the men who wrote the Constitution, or the ideals of the Enlightenment, because I believe that a document like the Constitution, and its forebear, the Magna Carta, along with other important writings, such as those of Voltaire, Paine, and Locke, could have only been written by Christians in a Christian nation at that time, or perhaps any time, but also only in a Christian nation that was heir to the Greek and Roman, and to some extent Germanic and Celtic legal, moral, and philosophical traditions. My evidence for all this is the fact that alone in the world, it was the citizens of the Enlightened nations who did more to propel the world forward to a new age of Liberty than anyone else; indeed, they alone are responsible, and though those who were the most influential were generally not very religious, they could not have survived very long amongst any people other than Christians, because Buddhists could not have been motivated to fight for Liberty, and a muslim nation would have sent them to the headsman double quick. Such men as Voltaire, Franklin, Paine, Locke, Jefferson, et al, would not even have existed in any other place, because only in the West were people allowed to develop intellectually as they themselves saw fit. At least after the Catholic Church stopped burning them, but that's another argument.

1 DAMN!!!!!!Just DAMN. I blame Bush!!!!

2 SHAFT!.....Can you dig it?

3 "What am I doing here? I have to constantly train for Christmas Eve and my chimney simulator isn't as good as the real thing. Yes, even I, Santa Claus, screws up the down-the-chimney technique once in a while."

4 "Damn, get me outta here quick! My 12-hour deodorant's about to expire!" J.

5 Excellent! I can now sue the building owner and become a millionaire!

6 I think Marcus is already the winner.

7 Shields's lawyer Jackie Charles was quoted as saying “My client was framed.” If the vent don’t fit, you must acquit”.

8 "Publish a few cartoons and I've gotta hide my ass in here? Man it's just not right."

9 looks like a good hole in the ground to shit in.......

10 I call this performance piece "In The Hull Of Slaveship White America". It reflects the experience of forced conformity to the oppressor's paradigms. Now, give me a hand and pull me outta here b*tch.

11 "Chloe? This is Black Bauer. There's no time to explain so listen carefully. I've become lodged in a model Q-237 air conditioning duct. I'm connecting you to the duct's peripheral communications center by remote armpit access, you'll have to help me find some way to get free."

12 DRUDGEBREAKING: The NEA funded Performance Art Exhibit, A Good Start, depicts the Prophet Mohammad going through a wood chipper. The ACLU, not knowing whether to kowtow to islamofascists or to cater the National Endowment of Art, exploded.

13 The India Space program took off with an early success today, as Hindunaut, Ravi "Beans" Bindharvi, (pictured in launch device), consumed enough legume derivative to produce sufficient volatile gases needed to achieve escape velocity.

14 DRUDGEBREAKING: The NEA funded Performance Art Exhibit, "A Good Start", depicts the Prophet Mohammad going through a wood chipper. The ACLU, not knowing whether to kowtow to islamofascists or to cater to the National Endowment for the Arts, exploded. (with a few minor corrections.)

15 "No man... Saddam is 2 spider holes south."

16 "I was just out - going to the store - to buy milk - for the children - n' this gust of wind came by - n' I had a 20 dollar bill in my hand - n' it blew away - up on this roof - so I came up here to get it - n' then I heard these sounds - cryin' like - down this hole - so I leaned over - n' dropped my car keys down the hole - n' I need those keys cause first thing tomarrow I have to take some children to the hospital for kidney dialysis - n' down in that hole - was this lil' kitten - cryin' - I mean - I had to do something man! - I tried to call the Fire Dept thru 911 on my cell phone - but weak signal - what with that ozone hole and interfering rays n' stuff - harming the children - besides - those guys - are like really busy - what with putting out fires - rescuing people - and children n' stuff - so I decided to - take personal responsibily - be a man - a good Chistian n' stuff - and said to myself - what would Jesus do? - an Jesus said - save that kitten and feed those children! - so I went down into this hole - n' got stuck - but the kitten - crawled up my leg to safety - its gone now - I rescued it - ....

17 For it's 15 year anniversary at this year's Super Bowl XL in Detroit, the 'NFL Experience' had shorter lines than expected to see Terrell Owens demonstrating about racism and how tight the restrictions will be playing for another NFL team. Owens was believed to be yelling for help as everyone headed for the stadium.

18 But...but..I was told this tunnel came out in my mosque. Am I facing east?

19 "Hey Bush...do you know where I am?"

20 Damn! I thought I was going to Disney World!

21 My name is Saddam Hussein, I am the ruler of Iraq and there are no American troops in Baghdad!

22 Sorry guy - Johnny Cochran's dead - and he didn't do Pro Bono anyway.

23 Thanks Beth

24 Yeah, Rodney's "Hindunaut" caption is great! "How many times I gotta tell you muthafuckas this is my hidin place, not no shitter! And who tha fuck had the lentil surprise?!"

25 Venom, LOL! Lentil surprise. Does that contain pork? Just asking.

1 Rusty We have all seen thousands of cartoons over the years insulting to muslims and arabs in particular. My favorite is a Scud missile in a camel's mouth while an arab with a sledge hammer is poised to smack the camel in the testicles. let's have more of it - fine with me - but why Mohammed? The Danish artists targeted Mohammed for a very specific reason - and I do know why. We don't need to go there - not because of muslim sensiblities - but in keeping with our own. If muslims don't reciprocate - hell with them - so what!

2 I think that Green gives Hollywood far too much credit. As long as a conservative is in the White House, they'll side with the enemies of their enemy. That's presumably why they didn't react to Theo Van Gogh's murder. Another reason may be that while riding a bicycle is environmentally concious, it's not as hip as a Toyota Prius, so coolness points were lost there. An offensive offensive won't do any good. At present there isn't a whole lot that will do a lot of good because we're never prepared for the response. There's no united front. Look at the diverse reactions to the cartoon rage. Some Western officials defended the cartoons, others railed against it, embassies were hastily abandonned, while foreigners in the Middle East ran for the hills. All this is perceived as weakness and without a doubt encouraged the chaos we see going on now. Until the West is willing to stand together, regardless of the pressure, we'll always be in a state of falling back until there's nowhere to fall back to.

3 I think that the porno propaganda may have already started. Could this Fox News piece have uncovered part of our black ops ? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,183060,00.html

4 "They want a culture war? Fine. Let's give them one..." Are we going to bomb al-jazeera? You know, for freedom of speech?

5 >>>Are we going to bomb al-jazeera? You know, for freedom of speech? I don't know actus. How bout we eat pussy, you know, for freedom to bear arms. Yes, a non sequitor.

6 Rusty, actus illustrates why letting slip the dogs of war is a bad idea. It takes people's attention off the behaviour of the islamooslims and draws it towards us. So while the mooslims are acting the barbarians, people like actus are tongue-tied and speechless, pretending not to notice (but they do). But as soon as you let slip a comment about "culture war", out of nowhere the Leftards find their tongues again. I say this is the muslim's time in the sun; let's not distract people's attention away from them. Liberals apparently go mute when their little mooslim pets show their true colors, and that's always a good thing. We should just sit back and enjoy the show, knowing the the cat's got Lefty's tongue until it blows over.

7 ROAD TRIP!!! And I'm buyin! Don't let your pit of a heart fret cause we'll manage to get you all on board. I know where there's a bunch of busses not being used. I'll take as many of you Islamic puddles of hate who require a certain kind of enlightenment to show you a very large cemetery. You won't mind if I don't bring you back as you are de facto mindless!

8 "o while the mooslims are acting the barbarians, people like actus are tongue-tied and speechless, pretending not to notice (but they do)." Oh. Its quite easy to notice the threats against the Danish press. Just awful. How would could they even think to silence a press they disagree with? Have they no respect for our western notions of freedom of speech?

9 I don't think we have to get into a deity porno war with these people when our greatest weapon against them is who we are, how we live, how we love and respect our families, how we strive to better our societies for eveybody, how we are there for other countries in time of disasters and to a capacity unmatched by the rest of the world. no I think the most damaging wound inflicted on them is when look at the world around them and realize where they have been and where they are going as a society. But for now they are shielded from this reality by their religious leaders who have convinced them that they have to destroy what they cannot achieve.

10 Hey, didn't Muhammad say, ‘Whoever insults a Prophet kill him’?? If so, and Muslims are insulting Jesus, do they have to commit suicide or help kill each other? Inquiring minds want to know.

11 >>>Just awful. actus, you did good. But aren't you going to follow that up with the required shot at the "American taliban" just to balance things out? It's morally equivalent, you know (perhaps even worse).

12 actus, never mind. That was unnecessary snark on my part.

13 "you did good. But aren't you going to follow that up with the required shot at the "American taliban" just to balance things out? It's morally equivalent, you know (perhaps even worse)." I don't think they're morally equivalent. Like I want to bomb al-jazeera, an international network that reaches millions. That's not equivalent to a danish newspaper.

14 Guess actus got kicked out of Protein Wisdom.

15 Not only is poor rectus bad at making points, he's gone completely incoherent. I have no freaking idea what he's going on about anymore, except that he still likes muslims better than Americans. That part still comes through loud and clear.

16 "incoherent" lol! I was thinking the same thing. He's in an impossible situation.

17 Actus somehow thinks the Left can use the Muslims to destroy the opposition, yet be strong enough to fend the Muslims off afterwards. Sorta like the Toledo Whore and the invasion of Spain. Once the Muslims were there, however, they could not be dislodged for 700 years. You won't live long enough to see your plan come to fruition, Actus, so give it up. Haha!

18 "Actus somehow thinks the Left can use the Muslims to destroy the opposition," Yes. Somehow somebody thinks this. But you have no idea how right?

19 >>>But you have no idea how right? By subverting the dominant paradigm. Then you Lefties think you can recreate it in your own image.

20 True on that last bit JC, and they also think that Marx was right, that corporations cause wars, that governments create wealth, and that they're smarter than everyone else. Oh, and that they're in the majority. Another group of Marxist extremists thught they were the majority too, they called themselves the Bolsheviks. Some things never change.

21 "By subverting the dominant paradigm. " If the muslim's subvert anything, its a sense of restraint.

22 >>>"If the muslim's subvert anything, its a sense of restraint." true dat. So who is this person pretending to be actus.

23 wow. Talk about incoherent drivel.

1 Islam and Western culture and incompatible. The Liberal multi-culti experiment vis a vis muslims has failed.

2 Is this a trick question?

3 any culture that rejects the prevailing democratic laws in pursuit of its own perceived rights is incompatible, and Muslim extremism which seems to be more mainstream now, is criminal.

4 any culture that rejects the prevailing democratic laws in pursuit of its own perceived rights is incompatible, and Muslim extremism which seems to be more mainstream now, is criminal. Well, not two weeks ago there was lots of polling data suggesting that the extremists were losing the battle for hearts and minds across the Middle East. So, given that, it shouldn't be a surprise that they'd launch some sort of propaganda offensive to change the parameters of the fight. They've partly succeeded, but they've also created a host of unintended consequences that might easily work to their disadvantage. For instance, the nature of the confrontation has changed. It's clear that the instigators of the main riots and destruction are not the average "man on the street" in Damascus, but agents of the Bashir regime itself. I submit that this suggests weakness, rather than strength, as does the fact that they had to include two cartoons that were not in the original publication in order to get people riled.

5 Demo We just about see it the same way. Islam lends itself to tyranny very easily - but a case can be made for virtually anything - it being just a question of ease. I don't believe its incompatible with democracy though it will be different. It remains to be seen however - and I want to see this thru. I do see these events as a staged tactic on the part if the islamists and their allies (Syria's participation is kinda wierd though) - and as a sign of growing weakness. on their part. More like a frenzied hyped pep rally to bring/force them together. I also see this as a sign of weakness in Europe - notice how the islamists target weakness - shia crowds, schools, mosques in Iraq with bombings - current events in Europe (don't for a minute think Spain's pullout didn't help lit the fuse).

6 What is effective? The Muslim extremists are absolutely stupid! Tell us to do anything and guess what, nada, death! Show the proper respect and beg properly and every once in a while your superior masters might throw the lowly dog a bone just to shut him up...something is better than nothing...

7 Hondo, you are exactly right, and I and many others here said that Spain's capitulation would only cause things to get worse. We now look like sages, except it is so easy to see one wonders why the Europeans couldn't see it at the time. I remember being called a racist by several Europeans for suggesting that Europe confront the Muslim radicals before it was too late.

8 Demosophist Can we stop referring to these ululating, slobbering, hate filled, bags of flesh as men? They are so far removed from the definition of a man and what real men are! Semantics, some might say but not I. Other than that...I'm mostly in agreement.

9 Forest: The phrase "man on the street" refers to the concept of an average, or mean... so by definition I'm not talking about the "ululating, slobbering, hate filled, bags of flesh." Moreover, there have been a lot of anti-terror demonstrations in Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon that don't get much play on our media... so given the opposition they have to contend with they might actually be more a man than I.

10 Demosophist I'm not picking on you whatsoever and I understood the reference. I'm truly sorry If I offended your sensibilities, it was unintentional. As a man, It offends me to be lumped in with this or any other category of idiots, when MSM and others refer to these grape-less clots, as men. I certainly hope I don't sound like the wailing hoards of hypersensitive jerks going off about every little thing under the sun. I am simply hoping for them to be more accurately described.

11 I am simply hoping for them to be more accurately described. Well, I'd ululate to that if I had the first idea how. But I had enough trouble learning to whistle.

12 Heh. Looks like I'm not alone anymore.

13 I was still in puberty when I first ululated! Then I met an ex-employee of a cell phone company but a budding young "Hindunaut" and he demonstrated how some of the best pie isn't round at all. It's been said that If you listen reeeeal close and put your to ear to the ductwork.....can you hear me now? (I vote for the Dill sandwich). Demosophost: We can get into the whistling thing another time. As to the other things for them to be referred to as, I'm sure we can come up with something more in alignment with their stature...with all due respect.

14 Of course Islam is incompatible with democracy. As pointed out elsewhere, democracy implies equality. One site puts it thus: In Western democracy, the people are sovereign; in Islam sovereignty is vested in Allah and the people are His caliphs or representatives. The laws given by Allah through His Prophet ( Shari ‘ah) are to be regarded as constitutional principles that should not be violated. http://www.islamonline.net/English/introducingislam/politics/Politics/article01.shtml Other Muslims make much the same claim. As Allah is the source of all law, parliaments are not needed to make laws. All that the state needs is the Khalifate to enforce the laws of Allah. Thus democracy is a direct challenge to the innate authority of Allah and the sharia since the law of Allah cannot be changed or challenged. And it is all a load of BS :-)

15 "geeky references" is an understatement ;-)

1 Is it possible for a islamic official to make a statement without ever including some thinly veiled threat? Okay. Dumb question. This statement by Bakri is big talk for someone who high tailed it out of Britain when all he had hanging over his head was a deportation order.

2 Bakri and his supporters underestimated the opposition, Graeme. And Bakri's support for violence should place him in a position to be prosecuted should he ever come to any part of the West again. And his organization should be banned and its followers should be deported from Britain, post haste.

3 "...whoever insults a prophet, he must be punished and executed." Isn't Jesus considered a prophet in Islam?

4 This calling for the execution of the cartoonists development is not surprising. Mohammed ordered the execution of his critics in his day and seeing how he is held up as the supreme example of human behaviour muslims must emulate if they are to attain place in paradise its only normal that muslims think that this the way to go. So, what are we doing about it? Nothing much. We sit around writing our posts in this and other forums, the only people who read them are the already converted. I have tried to explain the realities of Islam to the PC mindless drones and they refuse to engage in any meaningful dialogue preferring to spew out the terrorists have hijacked Islam fantasy, out of context peaceful loving & tolerant Islam quotes and point out that the incorrect myth that the Christian past was no less evil. It is interesting to note that the Jews in ghettos of Europe during WW II were told about the death camps but they refused to believe. Even though they had people among them who informed them what was coming, the majority ignored all the signs, lived in denial until they were led to their slaughter like sheep. In the one instance (Warsaw Ghetto) that they did fight back, it was to late. Any way when push come to shove, I am not going to be one of the sheep. The climate of PC in the real world is so pervasive its sickening. If this keeps up, Islam will dominate the world, sooner rather than later. If you want to vent by drawing and posting Mohammed cartoons click on the URL http://www.drawmohammad.com

5 Since it is perfectly acceptable in the Muslim world view to call for the death of anyone who offends their sensibilities, I think it is acceptable for those of us who are offended by their very existence to call for the immediate destruction by what ever means necessary of all Muslim countries throughout the world. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. By their fruits shall ye know them.

6 Well, the muslim radicals of the world have finally made their case for us to declare them mentally ill and incompetent to make any further decisions for themselves whatsoever. These people have to be the most self-centered people I have seen in quite a while. THEY are not allowed to "make images" of their prophet. FINE, so they aren't. Last time I looked, their rules did not apply to non-muslims. Now they want Denmark to punish the cartoonist, who did nothing wrong in his own country, and have the nerve to get angry at countries who won't do anything about it, extending to the Netherlands, England, and other countries. They really HATE the freedoms of speech, expression, and freedoms PERIOD. That should never be more evident than right now with the way they are acting, killing people, burning buildings, cutting important ties to countries who are trying to help them rebuild, even cutting off access to medicine for their own people - all because someone made fun of them and their senseless violence. They try to blame their bad behaviour on their "religion", but if they were really SO offended by cartoons, WHY has it taken them so long to their panties in a bunch? The drawings happend last September for crying out loud! The answer is simple - this is just an excuse for these radical morons to get everyone on their bandwagon. What makes me mad is that they have managed to get alot of people to apologize for legal free speech, including the bird-brained liberals here in this country. These terroristic idiots must be rolling on the floor laughing. They have managed to get the free world to not only apologize for being free, but to "feel their pain" when what we should should be doing is condemning their violent selfish displays, their complete intolerance, and their attempts to make everyone live and believe the way the do. If radical Islam were a child -, willful, spoiled, and acting out because it did't get its way, we would give that child a good spanking. Aren't we tired of this YET ???????????

1 First time blogger. I just watched your video regarding islamic extremism-nice job. I could go on and on about how I feel regarding frustration w/Europe and anger at the "Sheehans" of the world. I am actually looking to reenlist and join (as a 1st LT) an Army Reserve unit here in CT to be able to say that I am doing my part to counter these fools and threats to our way of life. Anyway, I will keep checking in on your thoughts and others like Ralph Peters and M. Malkin. Thank you for the information.

1 I don't think it was fear, I think they just want everyone to know who's side they're on.

2 It's funny how they always end up on the anti-American side of every dispute. Liberal hypocracy has been on display quite a bit in the last few weeks. First the Google - China issue. Now this cartoon fiasco.

3 I remember the exibit very well here in NY. There were complaints and demonstrations - attendance was modest - exibit went on tour only to select cities (small number) in the US - bastions of the left no less. It did however go on tour to Europe - with wide and great acceptance and applause.

4 CNN the Communist News Network and Big Bad Wolf Blitzer

5 And how many Christians called for the people who created the exibit to be killed. I personally didn't like it, but I recognize someone's right to do it, although it was juvenile. As long as these things aren't being done at the taxpayer's expense, I have no problem with them. Only an idiot would be enamored with such a thing, but heh, it's ok to be an idiot.

6 I'm sure there would be squeals from all these left wing media outlets if George Bush had asked them not to publish certain christian pictures, he'd get the 'freedom of speech' crap thrown in his face, there would be mass hysterics all round. however in this case, its all sensitive and warm and fuzzy bending over, submission. hypocrites.

7 When the war comes to our streets, we will have to kill as many liberals as muslims, because they'll be helping them any way they can. Liberals are traitors to humanity and a scourge to civilization, and should be purged from amongst us.

8 to those who claim the Christian Right is intolerant, here is some comparisons between the Bible and the qur'an in the Gospels, where the founder Jesus speaks, hell is mentioned only in these verses Matthew chapter 5 verse 22 5 v 29 5 v 30 10 v 28 11 v 23 16 v 18 18 v 9 23 v 15 23 v 33 Mark 9 v 43 9 v 45 9 v 47 Luke 10 v 15 12 v 5 16 v 23 also in the Gospels the term punishment is used in Matthew 25 v 46 THUS THE GOSPELS USE THE TERMS HELL AND PUNISHMENT ONLY 16 TIMES. THE GOSPELS CONTAIN 3789 VERSES TOTAL now for the qur'an. i will use the verses in surah 2 only the qur'an uses the terms 'burned in fire', punished etc in the following verses v 7 v10 v 24 v27 v 39 v 59 v 61 v 79 (these terms are used twice in this verse) v 80 v 81 v 85 v 86 v 89 v 90(these terms are used twice in this verse) v96 v 104 v114 v121 v126 v161 v165 v166 v 167 v 174(these terms are used twice in this verse) v 178 v191 v196 v 201 v 206 v 211 v 217 v 257 v 275 THEREFORE THE qur'an USED THE TERMS BURNED BY FIRE AND PUNISHMENT ON 36 OCCASSIONS IN SURAH 2 WHICH HAS A TOTAL OF 286 VERSES. THEREFOR THE GOSPELS OF THE BIBLE USES WHAT SOME MAY CALL TERMS OF INTORLERANCE 16 TIMES IN 3789 VERSES the percentage is 0.448 (thus less than one half of one percent) WHILE THE qur'an USES WHAT SOME MAY CALL TERMS OF INTORERANCE 36 TIMES IN 286 VERSES (PROVIDED SURAH 2 ONLY IS USED) the percentage is 12.58 percent

9 To compare the Bible to the koran is just useless hand-waving, because words printed on paper ultimately don't matter; it's the actions of the people who read those words that matter. No more need be said.

10 maximus improboulus do not try to discourage me to present evidence. if no one presents evidence, then you are like the liberals who just say what comes into their heads without regards to what the world of electrons, protons and nuetrons is like. people are motivated by what you find in print therefore the claims of critics of the religous right is intolerant can be proven FALSE by such evidence as comparing the Bible and qur'an since there is a set of people who do their best to follow the Bible, and there is a set of people who do their best to follow the qur'an but liberals typically try to avoid providing evidence. example: there are those who call talk show host jay severn, and try to make a false claim, and when jay tells them to present their evidence, the caller rants on about other topics, so jay severn says that he will give the caller a second chance to provide the evidence, and when the caller fails to do it 3 times jay severn hangs up on the caller, because it was just another liberal trying to get propagnda out in the opening. another example of the propaganda technique was when hitlers gestapo and other followers use to make the statements that jews and gypsys were useless eaters when the truth is it was gestapo and other followers of hitler who were the useless eaters. so i will present evidence and announce where the information can be found

1 Ah, now it's clear why Gonzales did all that smiling yesterday. He knows fascist Karl has all those Repug senators by the balls. They've all gotten the word: Step one inch out of line, guys, and you will be on the LIST. Which will mean no more big $$$$, no more face time with the Preznit, and you might even find yourself framed as soft on terra. In this country, that's the kiss of death. He's smiling, too, because he knows that the Democrats are too busy pissing their pants and covering their asses to mount any serious challenge, no matter WHAT laws Preznit and his fascist gang decide to break. Karl is is fabulous form these days, no matter what that special prosecutor is doing with his Plame grand jury. Karl saw Hillary's face when Bush alluded to Bill during SOTU. Karl also heard Jon Stewart say "That look is where a boner goes to die." But Karl just smiles, 'cuz his boner is still riding high. So grab your ankles, boys & girls. The fun has just begun.

2 Good rant John, but you forgot to blame the JOOOOOOOOOOOS for something.

1 Islamophobia? How about Scaredofgettingmyfuckingheadsawedoff-obia. You goat lovers have some nerve. How about dirtybeardophobia? How about terroristophobia? Dudes, we don't like your holier than thru bullshit and the whole kidnapping,sawing of heads, terrorist stuff does nothing for your image either. What if the rest of us started acting like you dirty muslims eh? Everytime we get "offended" we go on a rampage burning stores, consulates and threatening everyong who stinks like kabbab with a head sawing.

2 No, the problem is Islam. Islamophobia is not burning down embassies and threatening to kill people. And in some cases murdering people.

3 Would it be fair to say there is a fair amount of Catholic phobia in Iran? DonÂ’t agree? Try passing the NIV bible out in Tehran. I bet you start running into phobias pretty quick.

4 >>> "Insult to Islamic values and Muslims' sanctity in the West has been now turned into a main challenge facing the Islamic nations now. It is vital to seriously confront this challenge," Mottaki said.<<< Translation: "Say you like us or we'll kill you!"

5 just seen sheik bakawi on british evening news say he wants to see the danish cartoonist executed after a muslim trial...............

6 and he was complaining about liberal muslims being apologetic to the british people

7 Danish Cartoonists, Super bowl Referees, Jeremy Stevens, all should die after a Muslim trial.

8 lol

9 bush is caught out lying about phone taps eh? hehe.

10 I'll give the sons-o'-bitches a brand new phobia if they start getting uppity around here.

11 . In Afghanistan, The Associated Press reported four people were killed -- two of them when police fired on protesters trying to enter a U.S. airbase. Danish cartoons == assault an American air base. When is the MSM going to realize the Muslims use any excuse to create violence, often random and sporadic violence against anyone, or anything? It's the same when the Muslims in France, claimed the Police killed Muslim youths and were "outraged" -- who got targetted? that's right French citizens cars and a pensioner who is set on fire.

12 now the egyptian government is blaming bin laden for that ferry sinking.....

13 HEY !!! let's not make any comparisons with buddhism. Buddhists have been at peace with the USA for more than 30 years.

14 Sorry, but a "phobia" is generally "an unreasonable fear". If it's reasonable to be afraid, it's just good sense.

15 >It's the same when the Muslims in France, claimed the Police >killed Muslim youths and were "outraged" -- who got >targetted? that's right French citizens cars and a pensioner >who is set on fire. Or Muslims in the Netherlands. I just read about Moroccan youths who were angered and provoked when a police station was built next to a mosque in Amsterdam. One Moroccan guy they interviewed was certain that certain people in his neigbourhood would like to blow up the police station because of this affront.

1 I think Dean focusses too much on how the church influences the state, rather than the church BEING the state itself. The fact that you had kings and a pope at the same time should tell you right off the bat that power is not exclusive to a sigular church-state entity. Moses came down from the mountain with a book of laws that came from God himself. Early Jewish society was governed by such laws, and the great jewish kings administered these laws. This is similar to most of Islamic history, especially shi'at, where the job of the king is to be the prime enforcer of Sharia laws, which are thought to be from the mouth of God himself delivered to Mohammad in the 6th century. Since Christ abrogated all of the laws of deuteronomy and leviticus, save two (love your neighbor, love god). The state has to achieve social cohesion with an improvised justice system that cannot be derived from any sacred legislature. If these statutes are just and reflect the light of Christ, then of course the king should recieve your obedience. One could interpret "the divine right of kings" as described by Paul to the Romans as the "devine right of the existance of secular governments outside of the church" as the proper means to achieve social cohesion on this earthly plane. If you do this, then you have implicitly advocated the separation of church and state by modern standards.

2 Oh sure islam is exactly like Buddhism, except for the headchopping, terrorism, suicide bombing, fanatical zealotry, primitive behavior, etc.. Yep. Just like it.

1 that looks like a lot of reading Rusty.....ill set aside an hour for that later.

2 I must say that I do see most countries with a Muslim majority as not truely "free" in any sense of the word, however the one country in the above article that always draws in my interest is Turkey. The Turks seemed to have done a much better job of integrating the freedoms of the West with the teachings of Islam. Using the cartoon fiasco as an example, I have not heard of any mass rioting in Turkey in response to these cartoons. While it is not yet fully integrated with the teachings of a true democracy, and I will not be happy until it does, Turkey may be a good country to look at as to where to start "converting" a nation from Islam to a true democracy.

3 Geoff, the Turks already shot a Christian priest dead over the cartoons, I guess they are not as liberal as they would like to be seen as. Can read the story here: http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/02/05/news/turkey.php

4 The interesting thing about Turkey is it is an experiment in 'forcing one to be free'. Turkey has had to ban many religious expressions precisely because past leaders believed they had to force secularism down the throats of the Turkish people.

5 Let's see. I have had two death threats made against me by people from Turkey over this cartoon issue. I would not allow Turkey to enter the EU for any reason. Europe will be flooded with radical Muslims, who make up between 25-40 per cent of the Turkish population. Geoff, the people of Europe need to study Turkey very carefully. The trends are not encouraging, as the radicals and even jihadists are seeing gains in power and influence. I would never let Turkey enter the EU. The power of Islam is just too great a risk. Of course, that is just my opinion, but I urge caution.

6 Well Rusty I believe YOU failed to mention the two best models for muslim democracy Afghanistan and Iraq. LOL

7 Thank you all for the enlightning posts and comments. Although I have heard about what I thought were remote instances of abuse against freedom, I was much more misinformed than I would have thought.

8 Yes, John, you may laugh, as the present situation has shown that there is no hope for any Muslim country.

9 If you look at Jesus' and Paul's philosophy, you would expect all Christian countries to be pacifist communes. Fortunately, for most of Christianity's history the masses were unable to read the Bible, so the West was mercifully spared these ideas. By the time it was translated into the vernacular, a firm tradition of not taking inconvenient portions of the Holy Writ seriously had been established which continues to the present day. The modern Christian can bomb people and get rich while he imagines he follows the Prince of Peace who despised wealth. On the other hand you have the Muslims. They have been cursed with a Holy Book that they can read. Worse still, the text actually makes sense--not that it's *good* advice, mind you, but at least it sounds like something other than what you'd find scrawled in purple crayon by a schizophrenia patient. Worst of all, it actually sounds good. No kidding. By all accounts Koran is spellbinding poetry to native speakers of Arabic, and of course they believe every word because it's beautiful. The entire Middle East has been enthralled for 1300 years by an uncommonly good MTV rotation. Imagine if all U.S. domestic and foregn policy had been founded on the lyrics of Tracy Chapman and Madonna! We hope that the Muslims will follow in the spiritual footsteps of the West so we won't have to blast the whole lot of them to bits. We hope that Mohammed and the Koran will become revered yet disregarded figures for Islam as Jesus and the Bible are for Christianity. In blunt language we hope that the Muslims will grow a pair of nuts and learn to thrust their moral opinions into the mouth of God like Christians have been doing since the Enlightenment. I'm not confident that they will. These people love their poetry and they're not all that brave.

10 Amusing snippets from this post/thread: "Becoming more or less of anything is kind of irrelevant to the discussion." Er, no it's not. What part of trend analysis do you not grasp? All of it? "Geoff, the Turks already shot a Christian priest dead over the cartoons, I guess they are not as liberal as they would like to be seen as." The Turks? Like, all of them/i> and stuff? Hey Dave Clark - "the Americans" torture and eat young boys! I guess they're not as into vegetables as they'd like to be seen as. You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer

11 There is no muslim nation that is not our enemy, some just pretend not to be so as to benefit from a relationship with us.

12 No, many Muslim nations are our allies. But alliances are formed over mutual interests, and not necessarily mutual ideologies. Just because they are less repressive than, say, the Taliban does not mean that they are not repressive. Bill, Trend analysis only matters based on assumption that the trend line continues in one direction. But as you well know there is such a thing as a plateu. Also, to say Islam is the root cause of Muslim theocratic tyranny and the vast majority of terrorism in the world is not to say we should not support regimes like the ones that are emerging in Iraq and Afghanistan. It should be remembered that Afghanistan does not allow freedom of religion, even post Taliban. Nor in Iraq. Yet, we support them because their brand of tyranny is far better than the tyranny they replaced. That is to say, it is in our interests that what passes for a democracy in an Islamic country be established in Iraq and Afghanistan but it is folly to imagine that Afghanis might ever be free spread the good news of Krishna.

13 Very depressing, Rusty, but this shows that the number one priority of the US should be to become energy independant. If we need to do something akin to the Manhattan Project, so be it, but let's do it now.

14 Who said that there is anything in history is called holocaust, who said that it is true who said that it happened. Ask yourself before others why is it important to us to accept a big lie in history that this matter took place during a second world war. Facts millions and millions of people were killed no one till today knows where there graves are. On the soviet side alone (Russia) lost 20 million people whom were killed during war, so how they are calling for the holocaust that it is a fact if many millions were also killed. How can any one prove that those so called concentration camps were not for Jews but for troops during the war? It is the biggest lie in history and today leaders in Europe are supporting the Jews not for any thing but to stay in the power. Jews are black milling Europeans to pay for a big lie. People in Europe are illiterate of history it is the second generation who are living in Europe and those who were alive during the war days they were kidnapped by the allies during the war to write history the way new comers want it. It is not clearer than today that nothing in history took place was called the holocaust. This is a real fabrication done by liars in Europe received money by rich Jews to be either silent or supporter for the big lie. We and every body know that the gas rooms, concentration camps are all false incidents to collect long-term benefits through all European governments. No one knows the true of the lie except the fabricators from the Jews who took all the advantages from Europe. Do I dare in Europe to express this idea in the media do I dare to talk in the TV do I dare to announce this in the newspaper. Where is freedom to talk about the biggest lie in history? In addition, till when we should accept the false history I will say the truth.

1 wow never heard of that guy before but i gotta say what a cool bastard. you yank's should be proud of him. glad he's on our side.

2 Yep, he's a keeper! Glad he is ok, that's for sure.