September 29, 2005
Judge Gives Terrorists New Weapon: More Abu Ghraib Photos to be Released
In a time of war, the first and primary duty of the government of the United States is and ought to be TOTAL VICTORY. Any agent of the government who intentionally gives the enemy a tool to fight us with has betrayed the public trust and must be removed. U.S. District Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein ought to be impeached and his order ignored.
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Saying the United States ``does not surrender to blackmail,'' a judge ruled Thursday that pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government claims that they could damage America's image.What a total idiot. Of course they don't need pretext for their barbarism, but what they do need is pretext for the fundamentialists to support their barbarism. What they do need is pretext to recruit the true believer into the ranks.U.S. District Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein ordered the release of certain pictures in a 50-page decision that said terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan have proven they ``do not need pretexts for their barbarism.''
Terrorists do not kill because they like to kill. Terrorists kill because they believe they are doing the right thing. Thank you judge, thank you ACLU, you are doing the terrorists job of 'winning the hearts and minds' of the world for them and are helping recruit hundreds and thousands of more terrorists to kill your fellow citizens!
Hat tip to Jay from Stop the ACLU who has more here as does Ace from Ace of Spades HQ here and California Conservative here.
UPDATE: Just in case you were not clear on the difference between the abuses at Abu Ghraib and actual torture: 'Torture' vs. Torture
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More reasons that we may elect a president but we are ruled by trrants in black robes why we should remove the UN appointed judges and remove ourselves from the evil UN
Posted by: sandpiper at September 29, 2005 01:51 PM (FpZEl)
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Here's a new idea. How about we stop the torture and abuse of prisoners? How about we honor the treaties we signed that promised we wouldn't use torture against prisoners? Then nobody can get angry.
These US soldiers who have been ordered to do these terrible things will have life long mental problems. The innocent prisoners, the ones who didn't deserve it, won't have a life. The chicken hawks are destroying people's lives. Read your bible and tell me when Jesus would condone torture. Where?
OK, here comes the responses from the pro-torture haters...
Posted by: peace be with you at September 29, 2005 02:07 PM (BmtfW)
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How about you show some patriotism? Abu Ghraib was discovered BEFORE any pictures were released. We were handling it. But it was the pictures that led to so many deaths.
Posted by: Rusty at September 29, 2005 02:47 PM (JQjhA)
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The Judge is also a Clinton appointee.
Posted by: Ariya at September 29, 2005 02:57 PM (noCGr)
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I pay taxes I have a right to know how they are spent or misspent. Handling it ??? I can also handle it, with my vote.What is the purpose of torture ? Information? How reliable is the information obtained under torture? Far too much information is widthheld from "We the People" all bureacrats and politicans want to protect themselves. Open government can be held accountable. Do you think al-Queda has not learned about the torture and abuse? They have a better idea of what happens to detainees than we do. Do you think the Vietnamese only learned about My Lai from the New York Times? They knew about it a lot sooner than we Americans did. The Delay Indicment ? Gee maybe we should keep that secret too, al Queda might use our coruption as a recruiting tool.
Posted by: john Ryan at September 29, 2005 03:31 PM (ads7K)
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What you do not understand, John, is the extent to which the jihadis we are fighting use images to recruit more terrorists. For instance, found at hundreds of these websites are the image, from Abu Ghraib, of a hooded man being 'tortured'. Only the man wasn't being tortured. These images present a reality that doesn't exist.
Posted by: Rusty at September 29, 2005 03:40 PM (JQjhA)
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so "peace be with you" can you tell us exactly what good will come from the release of more pictures of the abuse at the prison?
The original pictures were all over TV, magazines, and now a court of law has held those that performed it accountable. What will these pictures do for us, can you please enlighten us futher?
They will only serve to embolden our enemies with propaganda to use in further recruitment of terrorists, and this will cost the lives of soldiers that had no role in the prison abuse.
I assume then, you believe this is the price the soldiers, and their families will have to bare so that you can oggle the fuzzy genital pics of bound Iraqi's? Bravo Sir, Bravo.
Posted by: dave at September 29, 2005 03:58 PM (CcXvt)
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I don't know about anyone else, but I am not condoning torture of any kind, but dammit, there is no further need for these photographs. The ones guilty of these crimes have been punished or in the process of being punished.
I would like one of you lefties to give me one reason to release the photos that is more important than the lives of our soldiers. Are you lefties saying that these photos will provide additional evidence that will cause someone new to be accused of further torture? If so, I will consider that to be a sufficient reason to release the photos. If not, and this is nothing but an attempt to embarrass Bush, then that is not a good reason.
It was just a few days ago that the Left and the media was reporting the following as fact:
Dozens of people were murdered at the Superdome.
Dozens of people were murdered at the NO Convention Center.
Babies had their throats slit at the Superdome.
Hundreds of rapes and assaults occurred at the Superdome and Convention Center.
Two babies were raped at the Superdome.
Black people were having to resort to canabalism to survive.
When the three tractor trailer trucks arrived at the Superdome to pick up all the dead bodies, only 6 were found. Four people died of natural causes, 1 committed suicide, and 1 was probably murdered. Hardly the scene discribed in the media and on the Lefty blogs. I am calling for an investigation of the news media, and why they printed lies that they made no attempt to verify.
My point is this. It is highly unlikely that you Lefties are in any way concerned about the soldiers or prisoners at Abu Ghraib, but your more likely motive is to embarrass the US military and Bush.
Your silence with respect to all the lies told by the media in NO is deafening. My favorite new saying:
BUSH-HATERS LIED
PEOPLE UNDIED
Posted by: jesusland joe at September 29, 2005 04:49 PM (rUyw4)
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Look Americans can swallow a lot from our leaders.Corruption,infidelites,incompetence to name a few things. But lies or cover-up? No way cases in point ........ Clinton............ Nixon........ You have to be straight with us Americans CAN take bad news, if they think their leaders are being forthright. As far as the jihadist recruitment issue, ummmm I don't think we as civilians are really going to access to that kind of unfiltered intel for quite a while yet. So wheteher more publication will show us as responding to problems or covering them up and how that will effect future recruitment will no dobt create differing responses. Now Dave I am not sure if the "peace be with you" was was meant as a mockery of my religion. Is that a standard greeting from you ?As for what good will come of it. The whole world will see that the USA is different than most other countries, that we are a moral country that holds OUR soldiers to the higheest of standards. And that when mistakes are made, there will be a full and open accountability. That what happened in Iraq under Saddam will not be tolerated by us for any reason. That we are the moral beacon that other nations should look to for inspiration. And Dave debates often succede or fail on thei weakest parts of the case: "so that you can ogglle the fuzzy genital pics of bound Iraqis".Was theis a little glimpse of,,,,,,,, "Dave's World"
Posted by: john Ryan at September 29, 2005 06:16 PM (ads7K)
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John:
The only thing being mocked is your reading and comprehension skill, I was clearly replying to:
Posted by peace be with you at September 29, 2005 02:07 PM
However, since you laid the trap, I shall eat the cheese (while you drink the kool-aid) the fact is what "lies and cover-ups" are you indeed referring to? the last time I checked the Abu Gharaib prison scandel was deemed to be the actions of individual Soldiers, perhaps I missed G.W with the leech pictures?
Who will suffer for these pictures? will it be the leaders? I don't believe so. However you seem rather happy for the Soldiers that had nothing to do with the scandal to have to risk their life because of it. Do you get your jollies looking at nude Iraq blokes or something? some sort of fetish? who should care about more pictures?
Posted by: dave at September 29, 2005 06:27 PM (CcXvt)
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Peace be with you: (1) We are not dealing with christians. (2) Where is your rage when Americans have their heads cut off? (3) Nothing, nothing the American and English soldiers have done even approaches the horrors the Islamofacists have done and will continue to do thoughout the world if not stopped by any means neccessary.
You are a religious nutcase. Never been though anything. Get a life. Take your bible and go to Iraq and tell the insurgents you are a christian and see what happens. riggin pie in the sky idiots make me sick.
Posted by: greyrooster at September 29, 2005 06:33 PM (M7kiy)
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JOHN RYAN: You idiot. The insurgents will use this information as a recuiting tool. Secondly, I still haven't seen anything that approaches torture. What was done that is torture? Making them were panties on their heads? Stripping them naked? Making them crawl on their hands and knees. News for you. All those things happened to me as a Marine Corp recruit. And a whole lot worse. Was it torture? Hell no. Bunch a cry baby weenies. More testosterone needed here. Trouble with America is that candy asses get an equal vote. Not fair for the real men.
Posted by: greyrooster at September 29, 2005 06:41 PM (M7kiy)
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Dave and Jesusland: Well said sirs. Well said.
Posted by: greyrooster at September 29, 2005 06:46 PM (M7kiy)
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peace be with you, bleating louder than ever, said:
"Here's a new idea. How about we stop the torture and abuse of prisoners?"
How about you STFU and let the military do its job, which is to keep Americans alive? I don't know about you, but whatever it takes to make a terrorist talk is fine with me, because I don't want to wake up and read about more dead Americans. Except for liberals, that is. The more dead liberals, the better.
"How about we honor the treaties we signed that promised we wouldn't use torture against prisoners?"
How about our enemies stop planting bombs in the corpses of dead children? Oh, sorry, I forgot, rules only apply to us.
"Then nobody can get angry."
In case you haven't noticed, dipshit, muslims are born angry and don't mellow with age. There is nothing we can do, short of total capitulation, that will assuage their anger. You'd like that, wouldn't you?
"These US soldiers who have been ordered to do these terrible things will have life long mental problems."
Maybe they want to make life hell for terrorists. I'd like to have my own terrorist to chain up in the basement so I could have make him mow the grass in a pink bunny rabbit costume.
"The innocent prisoners, the ones who didn't deserve it, won't have a life."
No such thing moron. The military doesn't just randomly detain people.
"The chicken hawks are destroying people's lives."
You goddamn stupid liberals cockersuckers all need to be destroyed.
"Read your bible and tell me when Jesus would condone torture. Where?"
How about you shove the koran up your ass and tell me where you can find that in the Bible? Idiot.
"OK, here comes the responses from the pro-torture haters..."
Pro-torture haters? Is that someone who supports hating torture? Or maybe someone who hates professional torture but doesn't mind the amateur kind as carried out by the 'slamotard headchoppers? You're too stupid to breathe, so go fucking kill yourself. The sooner you goddamn liberal morons start your precious revolution, the better I'll like it, because I want to kill you all.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at September 29, 2005 07:30 PM (0yYS2)
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I'll believe it when I see it. This will go the distance with the courts - no compromise is possible. Remember - they were used in the criminal cases - and they are over. Public release now serves no purpose whats-so-ever except to inflame and incite hatred and violence against US military personnel and American civilians around the world. This is the sole purpose for the requested release! Don't let anyone forget that or let anyone get away with a dance around that! Drive it home till it hurts!
Posted by: hondo at September 29, 2005 07:34 PM (4Gtyc)
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The problem that all of you seem to be forgetting is that in this country we have laws. Laws are what supposedly keep society running smoothly.
One of those laws is the Freedom of Information Act. There are 9 exemptions stating what can NOT be released under the FOIA. The only one that comes close would be exemption # 1 "Those documents properly classified as secret in the interest of national defense or foreign policy;". I'm assuming that the judge would not have released these photos and documents if they had been "properly classified as secret", and I'm sure there are those of you who would argue that point with me.
However, the fact is a federal judge (who happened to be a Clinton appointee, big deal folks), found that this wasn't the case. Therefore the government has a responsibility to make the information free to the American public. It really is a shame that the opposition will likely get their hands on it and use it against the US, but the fact is that these people don't need evidence. These people will find ways to propagandize regardless of concrete evidence of a US SNAFU (which this most certainly was).
And as for your "Torture vs. torture" segment, conservative pundit Bill O'Reilly loves to tell his guests that one can not justify and bad behavior simply by pointing to worse behavior. This is one example (of decidedly few) that I would urge you to listen to him.
I don't want to hear about or see any American soldier getting killed or beheaded or tortured because of these photos, but then perhaps the Army should have delevoped clearer protocols on what was acceptable prisoner handling, which according to this document released on the ACLU site (at http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/091505/) the Army (to be correct I should say the Navy, since these were Marines, but when I say Army, I mean Armed Forces in general) did not do. And the simple fact is, the American public has the right to know, and it would be wrong for our government to deny us that right based upon the all-too-transparent notion of fear for our soldiers, when the time to think about the soldiers' lives was two years ago before this whole mess got started.
Posted by: "Pink Eyed" Jim Cortina at September 29, 2005 07:54 PM (XHpdW)
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Pink eyed: Please name one instance of what you call torture. If you can't all your retoric is bullshit. Just show me one instance.
If you cannot see what was and would happening if we had not gone to the middle east you are blind. Our Marines are there to fight and die if neccessary so that we here at home to not have to die. If we had not gone over there more 9/11 would have already happened. Open those pink eyes and prove one instance of torture. I'm betting you can't do it. Why because it's all bullshit. Promoted by the left, America haters and Bush haters. Because they know some people are gullable enough to believe it. Again, show me one torture.
Posted by: greyrooster at September 29, 2005 08:24 PM (ywZa8)
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Pinko Eyed:
The problem with people like you is you seem to forget that we are in War, publishing photographs like these serve no practical purpose other than to provide aid and comfort to our enemies, and also give DUmmies more ammo to commit further acts of treason by marching with them on billboards.
You obviously did not see the re-enactments of the "batman" insurgent outside the White House, and the prison abuse pictures all over on their billboards.
Be thankful you didn't because there also was some overweight hippy Heifer's exposing their sagging funbags in a "Breasts not Bombs" demonstration too, and that my friend is REAL torture to see.
Posted by: dave at September 29, 2005 08:46 PM (CcXvt)
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The reporting from all media was worse than unaceptable.Gross distortions tabloid journalism at its worst. Regardless of wheter it was from the left (New York Times) or the right Fox News. Rape, murder,looting sniping at helicopters ANARCHY !!!! Now almost as bad fluff news last night on NBC 3 stories in a row on well..... nothing. Lost puppy reunited with owner; lost 2nd cousin reunited with famil The third wasas silly as the otherv two..About the only real news was the "resignation" of the Chief of police, somebody at the top held accountable for having more than 15% of his force dessert. I liked that, no excuses accepted, YOU ARE FIRED !!!! and don't bother asking for a refrence,
Posted by: john Ryan at September 29, 2005 09:26 PM (ads7K)
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And no one answers my question of what torture. Told you so. Liberal assholes cannot be trusted to tell the truth about anything. WHAT TORTURE YOU ASSHOLES: ANSWER ME OR ADMIT YOU ARE LIARS.
Posted by: greyrooster at September 30, 2005 12:22 AM (ywZa8)
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You Americans come to our country and kill people. You keep people in Jail and treat them like animals. You say this is because you want to stop terrorism ! When did an Iraqi come to America and kill people - I must of missed it on the news because I can't remember it. What would you do if a forign army came to America and did the things the American army is doing in Iraq. I think you would fight to throw them out. If you believe in freedom you should take your troops home and let us have our freedom
Posted by: Abdul at September 30, 2005 01:44 AM (pnVjP)
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When will you Americans leave my country ? When you have won your war, what does this mean ? There will never be peace in Iraq while it is occupied by an American army. So does that mean you will stay to we are all dead ? I don't think so, we have the will to fight and each day we kill more of your American soldiers. One day when you have shed enough tears you will pack up and go home. Why not save yourselves the tears and go NOW !
Posted by: Abdul at September 30, 2005 01:52 AM (pnVjP)
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You'll have them there as long as it's worth it when looking from oil economys perspective. Oil prices drop real low, or someone (Russians first, I'd suspect, they need to care less about international stuff than Finns do...) approves oil pumping in the Baltic Sea, and they'll be gone in a week. Unless it's near the presidential election... That takes publicity stunts such as promising contradictory stuff on both sides, so nothing happens during that time.
Posted by: A Finn at September 30, 2005 04:13 AM (cWMi4)
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Kooky Klanrooster,
Torture R You - under the command of NorthChimpCom, the racist spewing venom blows forth like gophers from the back 40. The motorcycles are racing around the inside of your pointy head, leaving a film of oil and rubber, smoke coming out of your ears.
Posted by: Downin Street memo at September 30, 2005 05:34 AM (A5eqb)
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Improbulas (aptly named, I see), you are a hypocrite of the absolute HIGHEST order.
New York is pretty blue. Based on your statement of wanton longing for the deaths of liberals, seems to me that you should likely be throwing a massive party for the 9/11 terrorists, eh?
As for your really clever remark about bombs in dead baby corpses - I suppose US soldiers and contractors raping Iraqi children, though, is A-okay with you.
I mean, they ARE just brown people. Right? Just future terrorists? Eh? So it's okay.
You are a godless fascist.
And we're all still waiting for you to explain how torture is Godly.
Posted by: s. at September 30, 2005 08:59 AM (AY9if)
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Greyrooster, are you missing the part where there have been released videos of American soldiers and contractors RAPING CHILDREN IN FRONT OF THEIR PARENTS in order to elicit information?
Have you even been paying attention?
Posted by: s at September 30, 2005 09:02 AM (AY9if)
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Why don't you Leftists answer the damn question, and stop with the rhetoric? Will the release of these photos cause more people to be prosecuted for torture, or do these photos show the same people already charged and in some cased already convicted of crimes? I'M GETTING TIRED OF WAITING FOR A DAMN ANSWER, AND I'M GETTING SICK OF YOUR RHETORIC.
WILL YOU PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION I ASKED ABOUT THE FALSE REPORTS OF THE NEWS MEDIA ON HURRICANE KARINA'S AFTERMATH IN NO?
Here's my take on both these situations: You Leftists don't care how many of our soldiers get killed in Iraq, and you don't care if you tell outright lies that make our country look bad as long as you can get back at Bush. You so-called Christians on this thread need to look in the mirror and see if hate is in you before you start accusing someone else of it.
Posted by: jesusland joe at September 30, 2005 10:13 AM (rUyw4)
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S,
You are a liar. No, you are a damned LIAR. Where's the evidence? If there is such a movie, and that's what it would be, it would be made by the jihadists with the help of the traitors here in the US and some of our "allies" in Europe. Hey, maybe Micky Moore will help you and your jihadi buddies make a movie, and that's exactly what it would be. Kinda like the "news report" the Palestinians made for Channel 7 in France that started the recent infifada. All those people killed over there because idiots in the West want to have a pet Pale. Where will the lunacy of the Left end?
Posted by: jesusland joe at September 30, 2005 10:24 AM (rUyw4)
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John Ryan said: "Lost puppy reunited with owner; lost 2nd cousin reunited with famil The third wasas silly as the otherv two..About the only real news was the "resignation" of the Chief of police,..." So good news isn't news in your book? It can't be news unless it's bad? God forbid if we should find out anything good happened after the storm, huh?
S: I can't believe you believe those photos were real. They were thoroughly debunked. Fake. Get it? Have you been paying attention? Or are you so convinced of everything you read as long as it's bad?
Posted by: Oyster at September 30, 2005 10:36 AM (fl6E1)
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Jesusland, what language are you even SPEAKING?
Oyster - the photos the judge ordered released yesterday? Have been debunked?
Cite, please.
Posted by: s. at September 30, 2005 10:44 AM (AY9if)
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Abdul:
>>When did an Iraqi come to America and kill people
September 1992. Abdul Rahman Yasin. Yasin was born in 1960 in Indiana United States while his father completed his Ph.D at the University of Indiana. Once his father completed it they moved back to Baghdad where he lived until he came to the U.S again in September 1992. he is believed to have mixed the chemicals that were used in the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center, and was indicted; but fled back to Iraq and to my knowledge has never been found.
It is also interesting to note that Ramzi Ahmed Yousef, the mastermind behind the bomb was known as "Rashid the Iraqi" he also identified himself to a human rights organization as an "Iraqi-born" victim of persecution in postwar Kuwait" although Yousef carried an Iraqi passport it is unclear if it is authentic, in fact the F.B.I wanted poster for him states "Place of Birth: Iraq, Kuwait or United Arab Emirates" even though he is in U.S custody his origins remain a mystery.
so any more questions?
Posted by: dave at September 30, 2005 11:46 AM (CcXvt)
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S says cite please when he cites nothing. S, the language I speak is English. Will you please answer the damn question? If you don't know what the question is, why are you commenting on this thread? That makes you a silly troll, and what you say means nothing.
Greyrooster, you are right. They are nothing but a bunch of liars. Their only motive for releasing these photos is to embarrass Bush and the US military. I can't stand these little creeps!
Posted by: jesusland joe at September 30, 2005 03:27 PM (rUyw4)
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S: You are a lying piece of shit. There are no videos. Produce one or admit you are a lying camel sucking garbage assed muslim dog. Americans don't act like muslim animals. You are a liar. A lowly dog stupid enough to believe such crap. Produce the video. Show one instance of this horrible torture that never was. LIAR
Posted by: greyrooster at September 30, 2005 09:23 PM (ywZa8)
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Abdul: You don't have a country. Those like you are not evolved enough to be called human. Only human's have cities. You ignorant fools are like little children. Your people produce nothing, invent nothing and are good for nothing. Everything you people use in daily life either comes from the west or is copied from the west. You are a second class people without the brains or ability to become 1st class people. We are trying to make you into civilized human beings. It's hard because we have so little to work with. I am sick of the problems your people and your stupid religion cause the rest of the world. Everywhere there are muslims there is killing, riots, murder and persecution of all who don't agree with your gutter religion. We don't want you in the west and we must teach you to behave in your areas. Stay there and behave and we will leave. No American wishes to be in your corrupt country. Why we care I do not know. Probably because you need to be spanked like little children. You people have been raised poorly and it shows. You are a silly, cruel, ignorant little people. Nothing but a problem for the world. Liars in the extreme. No one can believe anything a muslim says. Nothing but lie after lie from your dirty faces. The world would be better without you. Be careful, when we have had enough of your muslim shit we might remove you from the world.
Quit acting like dogs and the world will treat you like humans.
Shit! my dog is looking at me like he has just been insulted.
Posted by: greyrooster at September 30, 2005 09:47 PM (ywZa8)
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"As for your really clever remark about bombs in dead baby corpses - I suppose US soldiers and contractors raping Iraqi children, though, is A-okay with you."
"...there have been released videos of American soldiers and contractors RAPING CHILDREN IN FRONT OF THEIR PARENTS in order to elicit information?"
I guess I have to spell it out. Yes, there was at least one instance where the terrorists placed a bomb in the corpse of a child they killed and blew it up when the parents came to claim it. And the pictures of soldiers raping were FAKE! They were gleaned from a triple X site which has since disappeared. Don't get "stuck on stupid". Now who's paying attention?
Posted by: Oyster at October 01, 2005 10:51 AM (YudAC)
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Oyster, you are an IDIOT! Either that or you are a LIER! That video and pictures were not fake. Rumsfeld even commented on seeing them and described them as being beyond sickening, but did not describe exactly what was on the tape or in the photos. However, their contents were reported on back at the same time the original photos surfaced. No one believed they were real but it was all true.
You only care that it makes Bush and the Military and YOU look bad. The Iraqi people have already seen and felt first hand enough reason to join the insurgency. The military has already done the damage. These pictures will do nothing but shame this nation, and I for one am all for that! The Germans had their concentration camps and we have ours.
Posted by: Bearded Clam at October 01, 2005 01:12 PM (BmtfW)
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Bearded Idiot,
The moral equivalency of the Left has now reached a new low in your latest comment. You are saying that the US prisons in Iraq are comparable to the Nazi concentration camps where 10 million, that's 10 million Jews, Slavs, Poles, Russians, Gypsys, homosexsuals, and mentally ill and crippled people were worked, beaten, and gassed to death. You are saying that putting panties on someone's head, making someone listen to loud music, etc. is equivalent to Nazi concentration camps. I would slap your silly face if you were within my reach you little creep.
I'll bet you didn't call it torture when these tactics were used against the Branch Dividians in Waco by Janet Whacko and Klinton. You were all for this because these were mostly white people, and to hell with them, you are the protector of the brown people of the Earth. You make me sick you little creep.
Posted by: jesusland joe at October 01, 2005 08:27 PM (rUyw4)
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You are a racist scumbag, plain and simple. Torture is allowed to happen because losers like you let it. Through your blessing, children are allowed to be raped and tortured. You must be so proud.
And why the hell are you talking about Branch Dividians for??? I'll tell you why. Because you can't rebut what I said! You know it's true so you try to change the topic to make yourself look tough. Stick to the friggin topic! Or is that too much to ask?
Posted by: Bearded Clam at October 01, 2005 11:55 PM (BmtfW)
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The second post in this comments section is particularly confused. The poster called "peace be with you"
Maybe that poster would tell us where and when Jesus ever wrote government policy.
Second, maybe that poster could give specific quotes and or reasoning given by administration officials or war planners which are biblical directives, or quoted parables of Jesus which were spoken by administration officials in order to articulate a strategy or aim.
Thirdly, maybe that poster could assemble an argument, rather than foist up the old "better a hundred guilty men go free, than one innocent man be killed" - equivalent. It's a lot more work and surely more intellectually honest to do so.
Finally, Alan Dershowitz uses the analogy of a captured criminal who has threatened your child's life. The criminal has contained your child in an air tight box. Do you torture the criminal in order to locate your child and therefore save an innocent life, or do you do nothing?
To simply say that torture must NEVER be practiced is to raise this to the level of a moral argument for which a universal condemnation must be made by the person arguing against it's use. To do anything less is just chatter.
Posted by: vladimir at October 02, 2005 03:48 AM (J3sg5)
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Ah! vladimir: Most refreshing.
Bearded Clam Idiot: I just did you wife. You believe that to don't you. Go beat her up. Frigging idiot.
Posted by: greyrooster at October 02, 2005 10:35 AM (ywZa8)
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Mohammed appeared to me in a dream last night. He says Allah is upset with his children and has commanded the western nations to spank them to save their souls.
We must follow Allah's will. All rag head camel jockeys must be punished to save their souls. SAVE THEM, SAVE THEM.
Posted by: greyrooster at October 02, 2005 10:39 AM (ywZa8)
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Bearded Idiot:
Oh protector of the Brown and Black people, where is your proof? PROVE IT! PROVE IT! PROVE IT! You have no proof, you liar.
And you calling someone a scumbag is hypocrisy of the highest, or should I say, LOWEST order. You want to believe anything bad about the US whether you have proof of not. You are just like the reporters down in NO. There are hundreds of bodies, thousands of rapes, babies having their throats slit and being raped, and blacks having to resort to cannabalism to survive.
That was all a pack of lies, proven to be a pack of lies, but I bet you were right here on the internet spreading those lies like the little creep you are. So excuse me if I demand proof from you proven liars on the Left. And you have the nerve to call anyone scum!
Posted by: jesusland joe at October 02, 2005 01:44 PM (rUyw4)
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S: bearded clam: and the rest of you low lifes:
Where is this video? I'll tell you where. Up s's ass. Released videos. What a stupid lie. Only muslim dogs rape children. All you muslim and muslim ass kissers are liars. Your mothers are liars, your children are liars and you are liars. Camel shit is what you are. Cannot tell the truth. Show me these released videos lying piece of camel shit. More is that you are not even good liars. Stupid goat humpers. Back to your tents, cooking grasshoppers on camel dung fires. Subhuman garbage. You wish to be treated like men? Act like men. LIARS, LIARS, LIARS. Nothing more. I piss on you. I piss on your koran. I shit on your ancestors.
Posted by: greyrooster at October 02, 2005 09:33 PM (ywZa8)
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I think Bearded Clam and Anne are talking about something other than what I am. Or they're still in denial, I'm not sure which. There were photos that appeared on the net a good while back of the military raping women - and they were debunked as being taken from a triple X site which has since disappeared. They were circulated by albasrah.net, which is a favorite of terrorists, and another site, which is produced by a defense committee for Saddam. They mixed them in with the photos that were released on abu Graib. And someone recognized the fakes.
I don't know what's in the photos they are trying to release right now and neither does anyone else for sure.
I am not an idiot. And just for the record, Bearded Clam, I DO care that it makes them look bad. The difference is your "glee" that it makes the military look bad. Aren't you lucky a few did some bad things so you could jump up and down and say, "See?! See?!"
Posted by: Oyster at October 03, 2005 04:12 AM (YudAC)
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http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Rueful_Rumsfeld_050704.htm
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001218842
No mention of the tapes being nonexistent or fake.
I can produce plenty more if you like.
Now, hurry with the expletives and kindergarten-level insults.
(Ten bucks says you won't even bother with the links. It is not often that the willfully ignorant REALLY want the citations they request.)
Posted by: S. at October 03, 2005 03:37 PM (AY9if)
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S: You ignorant piece of lying garbage. We are well aware of the links you have posted and their mission. Which is to feed garbage to ignorant assholes like you in the hopes they are stupid enough to believe said garbage. Apparently you are stupid enough. Asshole
Posted by: greyrooster at October 04, 2005 12:16 AM (6krEN)
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S: By the way the first item on veteransforpeace.org is CONTRIBUTE HERE. Be sure and do that. Friggin nutcase.
Posted by: greyrooster at October 04, 2005 12:20 AM (6krEN)
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Keep crying America we killed 5 more of your yankie soldiers today. You will never win - you know in your hearts you will never win. how many Americans are you willing to sacrifice ? The more you torture , the more you kill, the more you take away our freedom the stronger we get.
Posted by: abdul at October 04, 2005 08:10 PM (pnVjP)
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Overheard inside a Haditha bunker, Tuesday, October 4
First militant: “I don’t mean to sound pessimistic, Bakr, but I was under the impression that our righteous resistance would lead to a weakening of the Great Satan’s will. If anything, we seem to be making them angrier and more determined to crush us under their filthy, infidel boots."
Second militant:"A mirage, Ibrahim. The paper tigers are lashing out against us now precisely because their ill-considered offensive is in its death throes. Our ability to manipulate their media and herd the soft, small minds of their fat and decadent populace is proving too much for them. Even their Cowboy Chimp is making overtures about ending his brazen adventure into sacred lands."
First militant: “Sure, sure. But in the meantime, those demonic helicopter gunships are doing more than a little damage to the torsos of our brothers.”
Second militant: “Well, yes. But try to think of that as part of the Big Plan, with Allah simply doing some light pruning to the Great Flower of Islam. Because once you do that, it all begins making perfect sense..."
http://billroggio.com/archives/2005/10/enter_operation_1.php
http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2005/10/sword-and-shield.html
Posted by: Vladimir at October 05, 2005 01:29 AM (J3sg5)
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Do you not remember the Vietnam war you americans ? You used to annouce to the world how many thousands of 'cong you killed every day. For years you used to annouce the enemy are beaten .
But it did not matter if these were lies or the truth because the vietnamese kept on fighting. It does not matter that americans killed millions of vietnamese and the vietnamese only killed thousands of americans. Just under 2000 americans have been killed in iraq so far. I believe you will not leave till we have killed 5 figures. It will take us time but we have plenty of time.
Posted by: abdul at October 05, 2005 02:32 AM (d4OUJ)
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Apparently some, like Abdul see it as acceptable, what happened when Vietnam became unified under a communist government after the agreements made in Paris.
A million-plus refugees fled South Vienam, tens of thousands of boat people drown an a few more million were killed, imprisoned and sent to re-education camps.
And what about the Cambodian holocaust that followed?
When the U.S. has fought dictatorial enemies and stayed on, as in Italy, Germany, Japan, Korea and the Balkans — progress toward democracy and prosperity ensued.
When the U.S. has withdrawn, whether from Europe after World War I, Vietnam in 1973, Beirut after the Marine barracks bombings, Afghanistan after the Soviet defeat, or Iraq in 1991 — only left murderous chaos or the "peace" of dictators.
Through the prism of history, we can all see what sort of regime (or jihadist counter-assault) characters such as "Abdul" support.
Posted by: Vladimir at October 05, 2005 10:57 PM (J3sg5)
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Vladimer was it not the Communist Vietnamese government which came to the aid of the Cambodian people to over throw the Pol Pot regime ! I now see the American dream - if America takes control of all the countries and does not leave then we will have peace. Vladimer we do not want American domination that is why we fight. You can defeat countries but you can not defeat a people. Face facts American left Vietnam because it LOST the war. America will leave Iraq because it can not win.
Posted by: abdul at October 05, 2005 11:47 PM (pnVjP)
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Abdul, you've got not only an admitted admiration for fascistic and totalitarian regimes, but you also hold out hope for history to overlook the fact that the communist Vietnamese reduced the urban populace from between 6-7 million down to 3 million.
If your idea of dialectic is simply cheerleading the jihadist/isurgency in Iraq, then you've already aligned yourself with the losers in this chapter.
Like America, Zarqawi also has the problem of drumming up a steady flow of men to fight his campaign. Hooking up with Al Qaeda may have provided short-term benefit at the cost of long term liability because it excluded the the Shi'ites and Kurds from his recruiting base. They were anathema to the Wahabi theocrats.
Nevertheless, Zarqawi too had his "military transition teams" in the shape of foreign jihadis and old Ba'athists who were engaged in providing OJT for his Sunni recruits. In some sense, you can tell the Iraqi war narrative in terms of a race between two rival force generation strategies. One reason why shutting down the flow of "foreign fighters" is so important is because it shuts down the enemy's training cadre.
I believe that Zarqawi has lost the force generation race. In the beginning, when he was directly attacking government police and army recruitment depots, he was still in the running. But at some point he gave up because he was not interdicting the system sufficiently. It's hard to shut down a system producing 18 new battalions per month. I think he realized he couldn't throttle the system building against him and that's when he switched to trying to start a civil war. If he couldn't win the chess game he was going to upset the board. But I think he's finding the table too heavy to lift.
Posted by: Vladimir at October 06, 2005 12:20 PM (J3sg5)
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I hear that living in moist caves while hiding from the U.S. Marines is bad for your sex life.
Posted by: Vladimir at October 12, 2005 03:45 PM (J3sg5)
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"It's hard to shut down a system producing 18 new battalions per month." 18 battalions of loyal iraqi solders - but loyal to whom ? Loyal to a few dollars ? The reason it is so hard to find the insurgents is that most are in the new iraqi army !
Posted by: abdul at October 12, 2005 10:04 PM (pnVjP)
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Al Qaeda must have viewed with mounting alarm the increasing numbers of Iraqi troops that the US can field against them. The campaigns against the Euphrates and Tigris lines and the seize and hold operations now in progress must be hurting them. Therefore, despite their theological antipathy for the Shi'ites it must have occurred to them that their car bombs, beheadings, outrages and gratuitous murders -- all dutifully reported by a media thinking it might chill American resolve -- were working against them; this brutality was driving the Shia and the Kurds into American arms. And now Zawahiri admits this policy may be leading to their defeat.
As Zawahiri's message made clear, Iraq is but the first phase in an attempt to create a global caliphate. Today Iraq, tomorrow the World. Where have we heard that before?
Posted by: vladimir at October 13, 2005 05:29 PM (J3sg5)
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http://literalthoughts.blogspot.com/2005/10/iraq-will-shame-us-again.html
Posted by: vladimir at October 14, 2005 12:47 AM (J3sg5)
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