1 What the hell is the surprise???? Are they going to announce that Kerry was a traitor in Viet Nam??? That's no surprise we already know that...let's see....hmmmm.

2 Laura: I think the surprise is that perhaps the former Secretary of the Navy is willing to make a public statement that Kerry was dishonorably discharged.

3 Gee, any more tricks up anyone's sleeve so close to the election? What happens if one of the candidates gets "discharged" from the running???? Then what? No election? One could only hope. :-)

4 What I've heard is that the former Secretary has confirmed that Kerry received something other than an "honorable" discharge, which doesn't necessarily mean it was "dishonorable." (There are other standard discharges that are given for, essentially, "technical" reasons.) I also have something of a problem with announcing it this late, especially if that's all it is. It isn't just that it doesn't give Kerry time to respond, which would be perceived as unfair, but it also doesn't give the story a chance to have its full impact. The Swiftvets have (wrongly in my view) been soundly villified in the MSM, which will automatically create skepticism for many people, even with a former Secretary's testimony. The story has to have time to sink in, get support from prominent peope, etc.. Plus, it'd be extremely embarassing if they make a big hoopla about it, and it turns out to be some sort of standard discharge other than "honorable." It might even cause a backlash. If they have something, they should just announce it and start building the media awareness. You can really get too cute with this stuff.

5 Surely, if something this big were true, Kerry couldn't possibly have been a potential candidate for Presidency?

6 I just listened to "hear jawas now" for the first time, and gained further appreciation for this blog.

7 Sounds more like a last ditch attempt from the Bush camp to smear Kerry. What with the credibile "truth" the Swifties have had so far, one would think it must mean Bush himself is thinking he is gonna lose. Desparate measures by a desparate man? Peronally I hope so, the door can't close fast enough on Bush for my own opinion. We have our choice this time, between a total f%#$ up and a total moron. Not an election to be excited about. Where are some candidates we can really believe in? Personally I am tired of the constant lies coming from both political parties. What ever commercial one watches from either candidate, the deception ranges from moderate truth stretching to outright baldfaced lies told about the other candidate. I believe our founding fathers would be more than a little pissed off if they could see what this country they made has become, and that their anger wouldn't be directed to either side but to all of us in general. They knew how to deal the likes of John Kerry and what he did 30 years ago, but also in kind they certainly knew how to deal with the likes of Bush and Cheney. In either case it wouldn't be with a clap on the back and a friendly handshake.

8 Demosphist, if you're an officer, anything other than an Honorable Discharge means you're a scumbag. You have to f*ck up in an egregious manner to get a discarge that doesn't say "Honorable" on it.

9 I have to get out of these pajamas and get my ass in gear!

10 Kerry the traitor cannot be elected. He is a TRAITOR, TRAITOR, TRAITOR. I would rather have the democrat's 1st choice. The MADMAN Dean. Kerry will sell us out. Same as he sold me and my brothers out in Vietnam. A vote for Kerry is a vote for Bin laden.

11 AMEN KEVIN AMEN. Even a General under Honorable conditions is a slap to an Officer. All others discharges are reserved for the enlisted goofups.

12 Jawa, "Other than Honorable" is a technical term. It doesn't mean health-related or hardship; it means "We don't want to have to pay for a courtmartial so we're kicking your ass out". It' s a bad conduct discharge, dude... go ask any service member. Expalins why Carter's SecNav had to re-issue his decorations.... the decorations he didn't throw over the White House fence, or maybe he did, or maybe they were ribbons and not medals, or maybe they were someone else'... Geoff, do you mean the lies like Kerry never being in Cambodia (which Kerry admitted...) or the lies like the one about how all of his service buddies support him (all one of them, while the rest hate his guts...) or teh one about how the military suports him (they hate his gts too, and for the same reasons), or do you have more lies?

13 Dave P is dead on accurate on the issue of the discharge. I'll vouch for that.

14 The democrats; namely their block union vote and their block black vote would vote O.J. Simpson in if he was on their ticket. Time to call it like it is. Time for those who suffered because of the commie loving Kerry's quest for public attention to stand up. Kerry sold out our military in Viet Nam because he thought the anti war, hippy, peacenik movement would lead him to public office. Real Americans are on a roll. Let us keep rolling and get things straight. Kerry has never been anything but a publicity hog. No substance, no pride, no honor. He played his party, he played his wife, he played the war hero game. This man (or mouse) doesn't even deserve citizenship in this great country. After his defeat in this election let us continue to show the liberals and democrats just how wrong they were to back this traitor.

15 GEOFF; Don't agree with everything in your post but the one concerning our founding fathers sure strikes home. Keep the faith. BUSH not perfect but a far better choice than Kerry.

16 Demosophist, John Kerry promised to show his full records, and even said they had already been released (not true.) He did this back in April. I don't see how it's unfair to release it now. He had many chances to come clean and let the pundits on the left nuance it into oblivion.

17 Johnny Treason

18 Even if the Swiftvets DO announce something, will it be enough for Kerry to have to step down? Pipedreams, I know.

19 Dave: I mean the common everyday stuff we get subjected to in the "vote for me" ads on TV, in the papers, etc. It's all a bunch of BS lies, if you take the time to dig out the truth of whatever it is they happen to focus the ad on. Neither side has an honest commercial or ad running anywhere, neither side can be honest with me or you, and that includes the national election and your state election. Here in NH where I live, our Republican party has been caught red handed illegally jamming phones lines run by the other camp; I see in Ohio they tried to sue the state and keep 20,000 new registrations out "because they might be fraud". These are 2 examples. The people I used to believe in disgust me more and more with each passing day, as I read about what sort of tactics are at work out there. I guess honest elections are a thing of the past. If you can objectively remain neutral for a second, ask yourself what the founding fathers would have done to a supreme court that ruled 5-4 that all the ballots didn't count? Now don't get me wrong for I am no Gore fan, not a Kerry fan either. Blowhard number1 and blowhard number 2 is about right for the likes of them. But if any democrat ever tried doing what Bush and Cheney have done, the GOP would be fighting over who's names were signed at the bottom of the impeachment bills.

20 I believe it to be very unfair to release info on missing explosives at this late date before President Bush and the mililary have time to explore the findings. HA HA HA HA HA! What's good for the goose etc: The force is with us. The armies of the evil empire are running in circles.

21 GEOFF: If everything you say is true. Probably is. So what. You're not for Bush. You're not for Kerry. Who are you for? Come on man, tell us a better way. How can we implement it. But please stay real. Something that will fly. I'm for Bush because I believe he's the best of the two. Vietnam vet, you know. We all hate Kerry. All politicians are full of BS. They have to be to get elected. It takes big money to get elected. They have to make deals or they don't stand of chance. My deal is this. Whenever republicans are in office they do something greedy. Whenever democrats are in office they do something stupid. Take your choice. But must choose or your tirades against the system don't count. Hope you have a nice evening. Still have 12 Bush signs to sneak on democrats lawns tonight.

22 DEMOSOPHIST: Careful buddy careful. Other than honorable means just that. It's like a plea bargain. I know many young men who received General Discharges under honorable conditions that were in civilian jails facing big time. During the Vietnam war you had. Honorable: General under honorable conditions. General under other than honorable. Bad conduct Undesireable Dishonorable The present system you have. honorable general under honorable general under other than honorable Dishonorable. Bad conduct and undesireable fit under either, depends on the severity of your transgression. General under honorable or general under other than honorable. If receiveing a general under other than honorable one must receive a summary or special courts martial. If receiving a dishonorable one must receive a general courts martial. A discharge under other than honorable is big time bad. In particular for a officer. It means you have stood under a special, summary or general courts martial. Officers by nature don't like the bad publicity. You pretty much had to screw up several times or super big time to get courts martialed. If Kerry received a other than honorable it was for something extremely distasteful to his superiors. How do I know this? Many know my son is in Iraq serving with the marine corps. I haven't said before that my wife has been an Officer in the military for 29 yrs and 7 mos. She is the Admin Officer on a base nearby. Believe me she knows discharges as she prepares them and sits on the courts martial.

23 greyrooster, you are right. It is because of his continued traitorous actions that Kerry finds himself on average, 2 points behind in every major poll I have seen. Maybe he missed the informal poll of the US Military that showed if only the US Military voted, he would have lost before the primaries. I am in the military, and I want John Kerry gone. Gone from the Senate and gone from public life after being tried for his participation in the following UCMJ Articles; Treason, Giving aid and comfort to our enemies in a time of war, sedition, provoking speeches and gestures, dereliction of duty and conduct unbecoming an officer. I hope that the Swiftvets pull this off and that no one in the MSM covers it. It will once again prove what a bunch of biased jackasses they are. I will be very happy to see John Kerry discredited and ran out of office (and hopefully the US) on a rail. Benedict Arnold was a war hero too.

24 Apparently that whole "False Witness" Amendment in the Ten Commandments has been repealed? You guys crack me up. With a nice break in the Electoral College on Tuesday, you all will become quite irrelevant.

25 PETER VON NOSTRIL: Still trying huh? I was there. Were you? Just another asshole who in all probability has never worked a day in his life.

26 Greyrooster: Now, don't you start picking on little Petey Von Weenie. You could try, "why no little Petey, the False Witness amendment was unanimously reinstated after a lying son of a bitch gave false witness in front of the United States Senate in 1971, betraying he fellow soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines, and giving aid and comfort to the Viet Cong, sworn enemies of freedom and the United States." 4 MORE YEARS!!!!!

27 YEAH BABY!!

28 Maybe it's a "trick" for Halloween???????????

29 Yo Rusty, you attract such a thoughtful following! Too funny.

30 Yo Peter, The trolls like you are certainly the most entertaining.... Sincerely, Professor George Stein Nostradomus the Ninth

31 Yo Peter, Just wandered over to your site and now realize why you have to troll here. It seems none of your writings can generate more that 2 or 3 comments. Sooo, sadly, its seems you must come here to have someone to talk to. Sorry I was harsh above, did't realize you were just lonely. Want a hug?

32 he's rone-ree, so rone-ree...

33 Just so everyone knows where I am coming from... I am not a veteran. I was expecting to be drafted when I graduated but they stopped drafting kids the year I graduated from HS. My father was a career soldier and served in Korea (1951-52) and Viet Nam 1968-69. he told me on more than one occasion that he felt the Viet nam conflict was being fought by Washington and the press and not the military. he loved the US and would have died for it (nearly did a couple of times) Yet when he was being re assigned to go back to Viet nam he retired from the Army because he felt so strongly that the US military was not able to fight the way should have been allowed to fight. This was a man who loved the Army and being a soldier. I read the documents that were dug out of the archives about how the VN vets against the war are supposedly said to be working for the North Vietnamese. I don't see any factual material that would lead me to believe what is in these documents can conclusively say that John Kerry was being led by the VC. The swift vets want us to believe that. What I see is a conglomeration of someone's opinion abou the state of affairs in the country in the early 1970's. It sounds like Nixonian paranoia to me. By that point in time most of the country had had enough of Viet nam. The country had seen it day after day on television. Young Americans dying on the nightly news, body counts, government lies about the war and how it was going, etc. The average American was disillusioned about the war and wanted the US out of Viet Nam. nixon kept promising that we would have Peace with honor, but no one believed that anymore. On one page of these documents it talks about an anti war demonstration in Washington consisting of 500,000 marchers. It is probably emblematic of the national mood about Viet Nam. Few people believed that the US belonged their fighting for the South Vietnamese who weren't responsive for the most part to the communist threat. Only those who were making a living from the war wanted the US there. Sounds remarkably like what is going on in Iraq. John Kerry is probably not the big hero that his packagers say he is. Many soldiers were given purple hearts for very minor injuries. It was a joke from what I understand from former soldiers that I know That doesn't make him a commie stooge either, no matter what the swift vets want the document to say. Is it really important to our future of our nation that our president was or was not a hero 30+ years ago? I think not. For if that is true where does that leave GW Bush? I don't have much faith that he is a hero or even a very good leader. He has no qualifications to be the president other than his family's political pull. He has shown how little he is qualified to be president by the way he has led. Record deficits, political favors for the wealthy corporations, no strategy in the war on terror or in Iraq. Record healthcare costs, many less jobs, record gasoline prices, 1100+ dead Americans and no end in site, that is his first term legacy. let's be real. Who cares if Kerry earned three purple hearts the hard way. they were awarded to him regardless of what they are really worth. They were awarded to a man who went to war while George W., Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, Karl Rove and others in the Administration were lying low with deferments. I know that some of you will attack me for saying what I feel. You have the right to say what you want thanks to us liberals who fight for the freedom of speech against the right-wingers who would crush any dissent. I am a LIBERAL. I am proud to be a Liberal so don't ry that that name calling because it makes me happy to be called a liberal. I relish the title because it makes me feel as though i stand for what is right in the world. the right-wingers are the ones who should be ashamed of what they are doing. Decreasing democractic values while invoking the war on terror or using the natioanl grief over the 9-11 attacks. Forcing the their democracy on a country that doesn't want it so that GW and Cheney can make deals under the table for the oil and ensure that the Saudi Royals can keep their wealth. I am probably going to get investigated for speaking my mind. It probably is a violation of their "Patriot Act." It is their stategy to gain control over your lives. Steadily they have moved us closer to a police state. It is what they are after. If they don't succeed they have much to lose and they know it. Don't be sheep. Question their methods and their power over your lives! Dissent is good now just as it was in the 1970's

34 Okay so what's the "big announcement"???? Is the rally over yet? Anyone know?

35 RICK: Investigated for speaking your mind?????? You give yourself too much credit. We've heard the same rambling before. Your self absorbing tirade should be printed to save future liberals the time of rewriting the same thing over & over. That being said, I believe you're a good person. The first paragraph relating to your father's feelings are exactly as I felt. Do you undrstand what caused your father to feel the way he did? Why we weren't allowed to fight like we should have been able to. Well I'll tell you why. THE GOD DAMN SISSY ASSED CRYBABY HIPPY DEFEATIST LIBERALS. Your gallant father should have told you this.

36 Good one George, good one. Keep on Blogging. Laura:Still haven't heard a thing. News media avoiding I guess. Can't say for sure watching football games at same time.

37 Yeah, here too...bet. the games and the doorbell ringing for trick or treaters....have you gone back to the Bigley Blog yet? Our old comrade, Xavier Cooqar the III is back in action, as is his good old chap, James, the terrorist loving scumbags.

38 RICK: Just for record. You apparently wish to blame the Vietnam war on the republican Nixon. KENNEDY THE DEMOCRAT involved us in the whole shebang in 1962 by sending US troops into what was called the Laotian crisis. American troops under Kennedy were send to Vietnam to answer that so called crisis. The so called crisis was the Russian, Chinese backed communist attempt to take over Laos. Ho Chi's communist troops in the north of Vietnam had kicked the crap out of the FRENCH and they ran (it's a french thing). Then KENNEDY THE DEMOCRAT send more troops to Vietnam to counter the North Vietnamese. After Kennedy's assassination the DEMOCRAT JOHNSON escalated the war sending massive ammounts of troops and materials to the south. 5 years of build up. Then NIXON THE REPUBLICAN was wise enough to see the handwriting on the wall and got us out. It took time and wasn't easy. We didn't leave because we lost. We left because America didn't give a shit anymore. The most damaging thing to our military was not the north vietnamese. It was the behavior of the Kerry's, Fonda's and cry baby liberals at home. KENNEDY THE DEMOCRAT STARTED IT JOHNSON THE DEMOCRAT ESCALATED IT NIXON THE REPUBLICAN ENDED IT. NOW HOW IN THE HELL CAN YOU BLAME THE VIETNAM WAR ON THE REPUBLICANS? Damn boy, Get a life.

39 Rick, I think you get your information from Michael Moore Movies. There are two kinds of liberals. The kind that want a handout, and the kind that have so much money, they don't care how much taxes they pay. To them, it fulfills their sense of moral superiority to call themselves liberals. Gotta take care of the riff raff, its, what do they call it? Yes, noblesse oblige. I believe in taking care of my own, and myself. And the people that work with me. I don't want government telling me what to do. And taking my money, and playing nanny. I expect many people to have a liberal mindset. It is human nature. But the war in Iraq is dramatically different from the war in Vietnam. The only parallel is, our success is being undermined by the liberal media, and by misguided people like you, who have swallowed the Michael Moore lies. We have to succeed in Iraq. If we don't liberate the middle east, and well, liberalize it, we may have to vaporize it.

40 Has anyone seen FarenHYPE??? Guess it's the counter-attack to Fahrenheit. Just askin'. Rooster's right. Fucking JFK started that shit. Poor Nixon, he got raked over the coals! When those poor soldiers came home, there was no ticker tape parades seen after WW2 was over. They were spat upon, called rapists and baby killers. It was a total 180 or 360 however the hell you call it. Why in God's name do you lib's stick up for the enemy all the time??? The poor people of Viet Name, the poor people of Iraq, on and on....well, what about the poor soldiers that are getting blown and shot to pieces so that YOU CAN SIT ON YOUR ASS AND SPEND HOURS ON YOUR COMPUTERS?? JFK is only heralded a hero because he was fucking assasinated...everyone becomes a saint when they're killed. Not only did he fuck up with Nam, he screwed up the Cuban missile crisis, Bay of Pigs, and oh yeah, screwed women at the White House right under Jackie's nose. Nice guy.

41 BINGO: Mr. K sees it. We very may well be saving future lives in the middle east by taking action now. If this isn't a good guy, bad guy war then it's a religious/cultural war. Do the Islamic nuts really want to get into that with us? I know the result. The culture that spawns the terrorists will not be able to spawn anymore. They won't be here. Save the people of the middle east VOTE BUSH.

42 RICK: Damn it boy. I'm trying to save you but you're sure making it hard. What the hell are you talking about. Patriot act. Police state. How much longer are you going to claim personal liberties are being enfringed upon when you know of absolutely NO ONE whose liberties have been restricted. You're sounding like a broken record. WAR: War my ass, CLINTON THE DEMOCRAT used our troops in more countries than any president in history. And he used them to protect the Muslims. KENNEDY THE DEMOCRAT: promised the Cuban people assistance at the Bay of Pigs. Then abandoned them. Go to Miami and ask any Cuban. KENNEDY THE DEMOCRAT: got us involved in Southeast Asia. Then the liberal democrats demanded that we abandon our South Vietnanese allies. Find a Vietnamese and ask him. George Bush took us to the middle east for damn good reason. Now the liberal democrats want us to abandon the Iraqi's that are fighting by our side. The war in Vietnam was not neccessary as the Vietnamese commies didn't have the capabilites to do anything to us here in our country. So why did KENNEDY AND JOHNSON THE DEMOCRATS take us there? The ISLAMOFACISTS have proven they can hurt us at home. That's why BUSH THE REPUBLICAN took us there. Damn it boy. Absorb. Get out there and vote for Bush. You'll feel better. And there's another reason to go conservative. Liberal chicks are ugly. They have a chip on the shoulder because mother nature didn't treat them well.

43 RICK: I learned that last comment in college. Think back. It's true.

44 WELL WHAT WAS THE BIG ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE SWIFTVETS? SEEMS THE MEDIA'S IGNORING THIS ONE.

45 Ike put the first "advisors" into Vietnam, Kennedy did not start things there for us. Kennedy increased the numbers of our "advisors" and then inserted troops. Got things going at full steam you might say. But shortly before he was killed, he announced a plan to withdraw from Vietnam, and targeted early 1964 (I think) for the start of troops being brought home. After Kennedy was killed, the very first piece of paper LBJ signed was an executive order completely reversing kennedy's Vietnam policy, immersing us over our heads in that country. An interesting side note is that the signature on the paper enabled our military industrial complex to profit like they never had before. Some of my exact deatils may be slightly off here, but the basics are right on the money. Kennedy didn't "start" Vietnam at all, before us it was the French (how do those a-holes keep coming up?)and one could reasonably argue that ALL of the Vietnam situations were left over, unresolved World War 2 business.

46 BS Geoff BS. Ike had advisors in much of southeast asia. Advisors are advisors. The Russians had many more advisors than we did. We still have advisors in countries where there is no war (at present). KENNEDY THE DEMOCRAT sent in the first combat troops, tanks and aircraft. He was quite clear in his intentions to take up where the frogs had left off. Maybe he intented to pull out on the South Vietnamese like he did the Cubans at the Bay of Pigs but he started the shit in a big way. When I finished boot camp and ITR in 1962 everyone knew we were headed for Vietnam. The indoctrination was underway in early 1962. Everyone with half a brain knew we were going to war. Then came JOHNSON THE DEMOCRAT.

47 Greyrooster: One little flaw in your theory about the LIBERAL's It wasn't just the liberals who were against the war in Viet Nam. It was the vast majority of the American population after 1970 or so. Now we see the same thing happening in Iraq. The Bushies (not the liberals) are running the war in Iraq. They are the one's who are screwing everything up. I have no doubt that our military is perfectly capable of kicking these bastard's asses out of Iraq, so why does Bush let Allawi decide what American troops are going to do in Iraq. Why is this loser of a president letting our troops be controlled by the interim "government." His shameful leadership or lack thereof, is a disgrace. He has the nerve to blast Kerry because he said that he'd try to get a real coalition before committing American troops to this bullshit, yet he is letting these towelheads decide when or if we will get al Zarqawi and his boys. You are dreaming if you think that these right-wingers will do anything right in Iraq. They haven't done a damn thing right so far. You can vote for this complete moron and his corrupt bunglers if you want, all of you can. Just remember that I warned you that we are headed in the same direction that we have been in once before and you will be sorry eventually for your vote.

48 Did I say Nixon started the Vietnam war? I don't think I said that. Eisenhower sent the first military advisors to VN. Kennedy did continue that operation based on what the CIA and others told him, like the Bay of Pigs he was mislead (lied to) by the Eisenhower people. If I remember correctly after WWII the French wanted back into Indochina. They wanted to control it and the Vietnamese wanted to be free and independent. The Americans wanted there to be free elections but didn't pressure the French because they would have retaliated against us in our efforts to limit Russian influence post war Europe. At this point Ho Chi Minh was strong favorite of the Americans but when we failed to force the French out of Indochina he turned on us and then ran the French out of Indochina. You have to give General Giap his due respect. He kicked butt. The seige of Dien Bien Phu ended May 7, 1954 with the complete withdrawal of the French. The Americans moved in when it became known that Ho had gone commie. The country was partioned and Emperor Bao Dai was made head of state he appointed Diem as prime minister because the South Vietnamese people didn't like Bao Dai There were supposed to be elections in Vietnam in 1956 according to the agreements made in Geneva, but the paranoia in the Eisenhower administration was that Ho Chi Minh would win and he was a commie so those elections never happened. The Eisenhower administration started sending Diem everything he needed to ensure that the North would not be able to overrun the South They began training the SVA and that is how the Americans started in Viet nam. The Domino Theory and all that... Kennedy was strongly influenced by what he was told by the outgoing Eisenhower Administration. My understanding of the history is that Kennedy had plans to de-escalate our involvement in VN but was assassinated before doing so. Johnson and the military-industrial complex escalated the war because it was good for business. It cost Johnson his second term. The people of the US spoke loudly, not just hippies and flower children, most Americans were against the war when Nixon was elected. He ran on the promise of "Peace with Honor." He forced the North Vietnamese to the bargaining table by bombing the hell out of the North. I can give Nixon a large amount of credit for that. But even he screwed up quite a bit. He didn't allow the military to do their job either. He and his political team played games with the military just like those presidents before him. Nixon was great a president when comes to foreign affairs. He was mentally and physically ill, but he was strong on foreign affairs. He knew all of the world leaders from his extensive time in government. I actually voted for Nixon for his second term. No didn't mean to blame Nixon for Vietnam. He inherited that mess and eventually did what had to be done to get us out of the mess. I admire him for that but he was coo coo in the long run. Some of you really get upset over this crap don't you? Take a nice warm bath and relax a bit. This blog is not really going to change the world. We really don't need to be vicious. I can agree to disagree with you. I think Bush sucks and you think Kerry sucks so make sure you go out and vote for your man. I am going to vote for my man. So you can nullify my vote if you have a mind to.

49 Christ! How some of you liberal types can skew things to your our point of view. Now you claim KENNEDY THE DEMOCRAT screwups in Vietnam were Eisenhower's and the CIA's fault. But of course any screwups by Bush were not CLINTON'S or the CIA's fault. Don't come down here. It's not a safe place for you. It's hunting season and turkeys are high on the list.

50 When it comes down to it. Your man Kerry is a traitor who is hiding his discharge information. What else will he hide?

51 Anyone know if Kerry has signed his from 180 yet? I doubt it.

52 HELLO OUT THERE....WHAT IS THE BUG SURPRISE FROM THE SWIFTVETS??????

53 http://loanbankruptcy.m-moore.org/fwzzvoqqc/ caresloosenedscratched

54 http://www.nealzone.com/wwwboard/messages/4165.html gentilitywelcomingwhereupon