Three British nationals recently released from Guantanamo Bay have claimed they were
. The ICRC goes so far as to say that what is going on at Gitmo may be a
. Many involved in the Abu Ghraib
scandal now stand trial for their crimes. In fact, Islamist websites routinely use pictures of 'torture' at Abu Ghraib to justify their jihad against the US.
But what exactly does 'torture' mean? Is what was done at Abu Ghraib torture? Laying aside the fact that most of what is being said by the released Gitmo prisoners is rubbish--also, suspend for a second your knowlege that the Geneva Conventions do not apply to non-uniformed enemy combatants---what about the more credible claims of 'torture'?
I offer the following photo essay. Us vs. Them. Our 'torture' vs. their torture.
1
Well done - a few need explaining. Saddam had hand written and drawn out notebooks full of torture mechanisms. What he did with his people does not come even remotely close to what was done to Iraqi and/or Afghanistan insurgents. We are much more civilized despite what the soldiers did in Abu Ghraib prison. There is no comparison. I understand the stress and the fear but we do not do what they do and we never have and hopefully never will. They are barbarians, we are civilized. So civilized, in fact, that those who leaked those pictures - most likely other soldiers and Operation Iraqi Freedom website - found them to be surreal. But NOTHING can compare to what Saddam and his sons and others did, not only to their own families, friends and countrymen and all those mass graves, another found today. We are not capable of that and our soldiers are not used to that so when they see it, it disgusts them to no end and they get angry and trust me, they have every right to be angry. We all do - they are barbarians!! They cut off hands, fingers, arms, legs; they thought nothing about it and based on Saddam in court, he still thinks he's President in Iraq; that he's still the LAW in Iraq and we are the "infedels." Not true. DO NOT FORGET 9/11 EVER! These boys sure aren't and let us support them in every way we can. I think everything should be told, everything seen and my reason for that is so that you will get so angry that you will stand up and do the right thing. Politics aside, Stand up, side my side and make that promise to those next to you that this will never happen again on our soil. If it does, we're still holding hands and we will go through it today. Support your troops, support your country whether you like or not like being in a war. Do you think we could just bomb that entire continent and be done with it?
Posted by: firstbrokenangel at August 06, 2004 06:40 AM (t0rjm)
2
Rusty,
As far as the actual torture goes, I agree that what happened in Abu Ghraib is not the equivelent of what happened in Iraq and elsewhere.
It's the wrong point to make.
The real difference between Hussein's Iraq and Abu Ghraib is that Abu Ghraib was a bunch of out of control soldiers playing sex games and disobeying orders, whereas Saddam, his kids, and his henchmen used it as a, official state tool of governance(and an aphrodesiac, the sick bastards).
Posted by: ccwbass at August 06, 2004 04:13 PM (qg4dU)
3
Those pictures make me so mad I could just....I could just...put a hood over someone's head?
Posted by: Christopher Cross at August 06, 2004 06:41 PM (62o26)
4
What you haven't included are the pictures of American soldiers gloating over the body of an Iraqi detainee that they had beaten to death. Let's compare that to Berg's death: Both men are unarmed and handcuffed, one is beaten to death, the other had his head cut off with a knife. I think the only main point for arguing in this case is which is worse: getting beaten to death or having your head cut off with a knife. I don't think either should be accepted.
Posted by: theBZA at August 23, 2004 06:23 PM (5lg2t)
5
I have to say that your comments and conclusions are well thought out and i respect them. however, i must disagree, just because the torture the US carries out is not as "bad" as the torture and murder carried out by Saddam, Osama, Al Queda, or other islamic militants doesn't make it right. And you must remember, nobody likes foreigners invading their home, ask the japanese, its probably that the US occupation of Japan after WWII was for the best, but there is still resentment and bitterness, it is hard for Americans to understand this, but what if the british would have invaded the US in the first half of the XIX century because the US was condoning slavery??? The US should NOT act as the police to the World, thats what the UN is for, WAR MUST ALWAYS BE AVOIDED, ask the 20,000,000 Russians who died in WWII, ask the 50,000 Americans who died in Vietnam.
If the US insists on being the WORLD POLICE, then it should be prepared for more terrorists strikes against its people, terrorism is a means used by people against certain things, like Al Queda they use terrorism to protest US Foreign policy, i don't agree with them much less condone it, but it is a means, nothing more, since the US can not be matched in the convention military sense, these people attack the only way they can, guerrilla warefate and terrorism
kind regards,
R
Posted by: Robert at September 02, 2004 07:37 PM (UKTYk)
6
just testing plz dont mind
Posted by: sam at September 03, 2004 05:57 AM (2mOD8)
7
A war waged on the premise of moral superiority requires us to be morally superior.
Disputing the degree of torture and which is worse is irrelevent. We cannot say that we are civilized and they are not because they murder people and we only torture people.
Posted by: Tai at December 17, 2004 02:52 AM (4IkVz)
8
But we are better than they are. That is the thing ... we are better. Why do we compare ourselves to those who commit such atrocities as a way to say we can do things that are bad too.
I think my mom told me something about this once ... how did it go ... maybe some of you can fill me in ...
Two wrongs don't make a ..... hmmmmmmmmmm
Posted by: MisterTinAZ at January 12, 2005 01:02 PM (dWkes)
9
Dearest Fucktard I:
We didn't wage war based on a premise of moral superiority; we waged war because we felt THEY were a threat to US. Ironically, it was your own twisted sense of moral superiority that led you to write that...liberals showing signs of projection? Why I never knew...
Dearest Fucktard II:
Two wrongs don't make a right? Sure, maybe. But you'd have to start there by accepting that we're wrong. I'll clue you in: We're not.
I have a cousin serving honorably as a guard over there. My only advice for him: Beat that ass like you own it. Ahmed will talk eventually.
While you're at it, Why only be half a reflexive, anti-anythingAmericaDoes pussy? Go for the full-throated, Daily Kos Level 12 pussification. I mean, clearly it is wrong to put people into cages; yet there these poor, innocent Iraqis were, in a jailhouse cage. TO SHAME!
The rest of my treatment of the "torture" story is at my blog. I have work to do, and you two tards bore me.
Posted by: John Thorpe at January 16, 2005 11:07 AM (QLFJN)
10
I thought America was supposed to strive for something better than this: The very fact that you're engaged in hairsplitting about degrees of evil reveals how badly America has slipped under George W. Bush.
Posted by: Marc at January 20, 2005 05:07 PM (33Ll5)
11
the dogs were released on the prisoner, asshole:
http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444
why do you have to pick the lesser evil?
Posted by: joe at January 26, 2005 04:31 PM (989xy)
12
Firstbrokenangel, how you can can call the bush administration and the US army civilized is beyond me. The American goverment are barbarians. We will never be shown images of extreme torture inflicted upon other cultures by the US, namely Guantanimo bay. It is called propergander and if you aren't aware of it maybe you might consider an education.
Posted by: sarah at February 07, 2005 06:27 AM (F1nba)
13
torture is unacceptable and you don't know a tenth of what americans also do. I am aware that saddam hussein has killed and tortured thousands but I really don't think Americans show the exemple. You shouldn't even compare these pictures, none is more appropriate
Posted by: hadro at February 07, 2005 04:59 PM (+jjwL)
14
Your post is pointless and makes no sense. Your choice of contrasting pictures is completely arbitrary.
Posted by: Teen Sheng at February 07, 2005 11:17 PM (zQNLl)
15
sick pictures. some people on this earth have no heart. they make me sick. lol.
Anyway, keep the pictures coming.
Posted by: jon at February 08, 2005 07:03 AM (w+ruI)
16
I dont know what to think about these pictures at first i laught but then relized that they were all humans,and yet i laughted agian,Im not shure what to really think other then that,i wouldn't chose for that to happen to me or anyone i know,OTher then that im just going to leave it at that.I dont wish that on anyone that doest deserve it.......Other then that i like the write up and i respect what you are saying.
Posted by: Jeff Mac at February 09, 2005 09:47 AM (a4r5l)
17
cheers to both USA and Iraq .... they have done PHD in torture or else you can say they are masters of torture well the image collection is really ..awesome i mean the beheaded image is just outstanding ...i found this site the best after nausea ..well i am doing my bachelors in human torture and i conclude that the torture that happened in abu ghraib gets full points from my side ;-) alright then keep the good may we see a more 100 yrs of torture ....long live USA and IRAQ . remember just keep torturing and beheading
Posted by: pussyman at February 10, 2005 02:35 PM (MNegh)
18
hwahaha....goddamn assmerican!!! after the cruelty you've done, you're still sayin' that you're good??!! or f*ckin innocent??! it's a pleasure to kill person like you and your f*ckin conservative catholic-jew president!!!!
Posted by: hate u at February 26, 2005 02:26 AM (3XStG)
19
Torture is torture. We aren't nearly as barbaric as the Hussein Regime was, but are we to say that we've done nothing wrong? Releasing dogs on prisoners, beating prisoners to death, using depleted uranium in Iraq causing 1000's of deformities and ruining lands for centuries to come.... who are we to condem any other nation?
1 last point: If we're so worried about human atrocities then why the fuck don't we have troops in Sudan to help the MILLIONS of innocents who've been killed and tortured there? Oh, I forgot, they don't have oil.
hooray america
Posted by: Feelin 2 nice at February 28, 2005 04:39 PM (KpSLd)
20
why is america better than the rest of the world?
it has nothing to do with torture.
every country on earth has psychopathic citizens.
america is great because we have HIGH STANDARDS.
We have CODES of CONDUCT, and we ENFORCE our codes.
These rules and regulations encompass every aspect of the American life. From the food we eat to the cars we drive to the toilets we use.
This is what makes the US the best country in the world.
Posted by: __rich__ at March 02, 2005 12:19 AM (sxw1H)
21
Right or wrong? Where are we all going to if this is how we lead and if this is how we teach.
Some people may say that im a dreamer but im not the only one.
My heart is broken to know that so many people are born into a world where there will neverbe any peace...
There is no peace in the family home
No peace in our schools
No peace at the work place
No peace between any country in the world
No peace in the bible
There will always be fallings out and to what level these arguments will rise to has no end.
Man shouts at woman it leads to divorce or man murders wife, man murders children then takes his own life. Woman kills cheating husband then takes her own life
Children argue they fall out and one hits the other. They break friends, one might bully the other the bullied child takes his own life
Child has argument with teacher child takes fathers gun into school and shoots teacher and other pupils and then takes his own life
President fall out with priminister war breaks out thousands die and the world has yet more tears to cry
This is life and because none of us learn anything from history we will always be faced with a world like this.
One person can make a difference? Maybe but if everyone wants world peace then its going to take a world effort.
No action of terror or violence can be accepted.
May we all start to learn and soon.
Posted by: Pete at March 02, 2005 12:26 PM (SRv0w)
22
tit for tat,u.s. army rulessssssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: slipknot9 at March 05, 2005 10:17 AM (zZdOR)
23
Fucking hell, god damned jews. Stop complaining and suck my fucking dick. God damn it, you are all bitchs, back in the fucking day taking a cock or two was normal. But you fucking Americans with your fucking rights, i swear if i put my penis into a little girl these days, i would get sued. What the fuck is this world coming too? Now all our childern are pussies, not enough cock, to much Tv. Fucking hell what the fuck are you doing?
Posted by: OmegaPirate at March 09, 2005 04:49 AM (39uFO)
24
firstbrokenangel you are probly the most disgusting american iv eva herd of
all the world hates america u no y? caus of there
fukin big headedness.
rich country, firtile lands, u got evrythin but u stil want more fukin selfish greedy bastards
try bein fair 2 poor countreys that need il 2 sel 2 STAY ALIV the world is ruled by mony. how r they gona eet wit no mony caus they got they oil stolen from them.
im aussie. and no im NOT proud of my country. or our PM. howards sending our country down the same road that americas on.
americans dont seem 2 reelise that wat they c on tv and the news is conrtoled by the government. the government controls wat u see and hear. they control wat you know. the only way you can reely no wats going on is 2 b there wen it hapns. americans r LIED 2 by their own government.
in 6 months me and my family are traveling 2 europe and ges wat? we hav 2 hav litl aus flags on our bags so were not mistaken 4 americans. its amazing how much countrys OTHER than america hate the US
hey u no wat wood b great? if all of the US could just dissapear. INCLUDING alaska. fukin bush luvers.
but u no wat the reely funy thing is? im a 14 yr old girl an iv got more of an idea of wats reely goin on in the world than midl aged americans
Posted by: Resurrected_Dragon at March 10, 2005 06:50 PM (jItEJ)
25
You all need to get fucked they did rong they are fucking dick heads and why would they ever do such discusting fucking things fuckin Homos why dont they get a fucking life
Posted by: Fuckin_god at March 10, 2005 07:02 PM (jItEJ)
26
YEH and to that fucker about his cock get a life just caus you cant get none and go for kids dosen't make it rigth fucker get over it you dum shite you must just think a bout your dick 24 7 perve get a fucking clue
Posted by: Fackin_God at March 10, 2005 07:09 PM (jItEJ)
27
You all are wired and need theroph you people are the sickes fuckers i have ever herd of man you guys are fucking nuts ccrazy fuckers you all need a good kick in the ass get a clue and get a life stoners.
Posted by: Gods must be stoned at March 10, 2005 07:13 PM (jItEJ)
28
You all suck monkey cock and need to get a fucking life you fuckers
Posted by: Fuck face at March 20, 2005 10:08 PM (jItEJ)
29
You know what! those fucking towl heads behead our guys, and dumbass liberals bitch about us humiliating them. We use stupid little tactice to loosen them up, but the Iraqi's beat the shit out of us, and just bold faced kill our guys. There is no comparison what so ever, bleeding heart liberals can burn in hell!
Posted by: Kill towl heads at March 24, 2005 11:28 AM (J3FxU)
30
whatever this person wrote expressed ..only an opinion...looks like this person is extremely...patriotic or ..blind. an excellent way to show ur propaganda....americanz arms all the world...TO KILL... not To make Peace...In the name of Democracy,,....rage war...FUK u .......if i bring pictures which will prove americá's dirty game.....where will u hide....they killed everyone who came to make peace......american's r da worst nation...which made da whole world suffer.....U MUTHA FUCKAZ...
THEY USED TO SAY BRITISH SUN WILL NEVER SET>
BUT AFTA LONG TYME THEY DID LOSE>>>COULDN"T KEEP RULE OVER THE WORLD>>>>BRITISH THEY DID TOOK OVER DA MOST OF DA WORLD>>BUT AMERICA THEY TRYIN TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD NOT OPENLY BUT WITH PUPPET GOVERNMENTS N ALL THOSE FUKIN PUSSIES>>>>BUT DON"T BE TOO PROUD>>CAUSE AMERICAN SUN WILL SET ONE DAY>>>>THIS IS MA WORD IF NOT TOMMOROW>>>AFTA TOMMOROW>>NOW LOOK AT BRITIAN>>THEY ARE NOW AMERICA"S BITCH >>>>>>
YOU HAVN"T SEEN DA DEVASTATIN DAYS WHEN AMERICANS R BOMBING FROM THE SKY.....CAUSE U GUYZ R TRUE PUSSIES..WHY NOT FIGHT LIKE MEN.....YAH U DID SHOW UR AMERICAN...WAY OF TORTURING.......HOW STUPID OF U SHOWIN THIS PICS...U STUPID..FAG...HOW COME U DON'T SHOW PICTURES...WHEN IRAQ WAS BOMBED ....THE US PLANES DROPPIN POUND N POUND BOMBS...HOW COME ? U SHOULD BE LEAVE PATRIOTISM .....FO A SECOND THINK LYKE A FUKIN HUMAN BEING.......U SHOULD FEEL OTHERS PAIN....PICZ DAT SHOWS ...WHERE IRAQI N AFGHANI KIDS LOST DERE PARENTS CAUSE OF DA BOMBING......THEY SEE THEIR PARENTS N BROS N SISTERS HEAD BLOWN OFF...WHEN THE BOMB DROPED....YOU CÃÂN'T EVEN FIND A PIECE OF BONE...WHY NOT?....U KNOW WHY CAUSE U R BLIND....I DON'T BLAME U..CAUSE DATS HOW U GREW......YOU PPL STUPID....YOU CAN'T SEE WHATS WRONG WATS RIGHT.....WHY PPL HATE AMERICA? CAUSE OF THOSE REASON ....REVENGE.T....THEY R DA ONE FUKED UP.........one tyme u will be destroyed>>>ur pride will destroy n THA INJUSTICES..THAT AMERICA...COMMITS...THERE IS ALWAYZ AFTA DEATH......EVERYBODY WILL GET PUNISHMENT..god will destroy you
Posted by: solja at March 27, 2005 03:22 AM (29aHP)
31
Wow - What on earth happened to a friendly disagreement?
I have been watching and reading this blog for many months now and I am, quite truthfully disappointed at the degradation of the language used.
Do I agree with torture - NO!
Do I support our president and our troops -
YOU BETCHA!
I read the post from the Aussies - now THAT was enlightening!
As a former military brat and (I consider myself) a patriot - if you are a foreigner in our country and don't like our policies - LEAVE! Did we drag you here?
Just an aside:
Regarding the foul mouthed comments - My father (a major in the air force) used to tell me that:
"Those who speak (or write in this case)with little more than profanities are showing what a limited vocabulary they really have".
Hmmm, might that be the case here?
Posted by: Mel at April 28, 2005 11:14 PM (bbxLM)
32
Resurrected_Dragon/Gods must be stoned/Fuck face or Fred Marther, who ever the hell you are: Good Lord! Get an English tutor. Learn to spell. Grow up. Be happy there are young men and women over there protecting every ingrate just like you who never took the time to pay attention in school. And then bow down and kiss the feet of every literate person here who will be paying into the welfare system you're likely to be collecting from because you're too stupid to hold a job.
Solja: You're a moron.
There ... I feel better.
Posted by: Oyster at April 29, 2005 02:11 PM (fl6E1)
33
oyster who really cares how people spell as long as they get there opinion heard.
yes now i'm spelling properly but only to show you that no matter how you type or dress or talk or what you believe in or what country you're in we are all the same.
originally we all came from africa and we were all exactly the same. we look at animals and think that they are all the same and we are completely different but we're just animals too. religious people might think otherewise but this is all fact.
i really try not to be prejudice or biased (sorry can't spell that one) and i think the only way i am biased is that i am against christianity.
yes what the iraqi's did was wrong but does that really give the american troops the right to hurt back?
we're taught in school, two wrongs don't make a right, if you get hit, don't hit back.
what's the point of this lesson? to keep people from fighting.
so if you americans continue to follow president bush what do you think will happen?
hey it's allready happened so why bother making up a new one?
TERRORISTS attack the twin towers
BUSH attacks Iraq
TERRORISTS bomb bali
BUSH sends harder forces of violence into iraq
do you think there would be a war if bush had just worked with the iraqi government to catch whoever was involved?
yes maybe but so many lives could have been spared.
america boasts about being land of the free, home of the brave.
free to whome? theres more homeless people now than ever before. they can't do what they want so how is that free? people of different races and religions get shit from so many so they can't do things like sport, social stuff nearly as much as white christian americans so how are they free?
and how are you brave? really think about it. do you really want to go to a war zone where so many american troops are killed and really what do you achieve? does bush recognise that you've given your life for your country?
i'm not asking that you change immediatly. just recognise that all humans deserve respect no matter what age, race, sex or religion.
o and oyster, im only 15 an in yr nine how am i sposed 2 'go bak 2 skool' and im actually gona b a shrink an liv reel comftabl wit a spa an a pool an a few thousand acres. theres no way im gona liv off the welfare mony im not that hopeless
luv sarah
Posted by: Resurrected_dragon at May 17, 2005 06:29 AM (08I4a)
34
"the dogs were released on the prisoner, asshole:
http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444"
Someone seemed to miss this part of the web page:
It is unclear whether his injuries were from dog bites.
Posted by: h0mi at June 17, 2005 09:53 AM (LuPL2)
35
Resurrected Dragon,
I guess I'll stick to your most recent post, because it's too exhausting to point out the shortcomings in both that I saw here.
"do you think there would be a war if bush had just worked with the iraqi government to catch whoever was involved?"
Worked with the Iraqi government? The problem was Hussein. We're not going to get far if we work with Hussein to get Hussein. Or with Hitler to get Hitler.
"people of different races and religions get shit from so many so they can't do things like sport, social stuff nearly as much as white christian americans so how are they free?"
Who are you again? You're a 15-yr old Aussie, and you think you're some sort of authority on racial relations in America? "Can't do things like sport, social stuff nearly as much as white Christian Americans?" Honestly, you're a joke. Except you're not funny. You're sad.
You'd do yourself a favor if you UNconvinced yourself that you know so much about the world at your age.
Oh, and the fact that your family is travelling with Aussie flags on their luggage is a testament only to their paranoia and disconnect from the world, it's not actually founded in some prescient knowledge that they're going to be attacked for 'looking American' or some such nonsense.
You're flat out ridiculous, Sarah. Seriously, get a grip.
Posted by: hard to believe at June 20, 2005 09:44 PM (/wN2Y)
36
As far as the torture goes, yeah.
I agree with pretty much what most of the people on here are saying.
Torture is bad. I honestly do not care who is doing it and why.
As far as this little sentiment:
"The problem was Hussein. We're not going to get far if we work with Hussein to get Hussein. Or with Hitler to get Hitler."
Wait, didn't Bush say it was to fight the "terrists"? No, wait, was it WMD's? Or wait, "to pertect our freedom"? Or "to pertect the freedom of the Iraqis"?
Well, I guess I can't blame you for watching too much Fox News. It's what all the cool kids are doing now.
If the current administration in the US government really cared about the suffering of the Iraqi people they'd be doing a hell of a lot more elsewhere too, like Feelin 2 nice said.
But I suppose if you trust that Bush and his advisors sent thousands of young Americans to die in Iraq for a worthy cause, that's your decision. Just don't attack other people who are entitled to their own decisions. That is the beauty of America, after all.
Posted by: trees & dirt at July 11, 2005 08:22 PM (zlaZy)
37
Okay some of u guys have a point with ur opions the rest are just running ur mouths ...u guys keep memtioning that IRAQIS are doing this but u can not blame what a group of dumb and beyond pathtic individuals did on EVERY iraqi out there i mean iraqis here are getting blamed for everything and they are being treated differnetly after the 9/11 attacks but they suffered more then anybody can indure and for the people that are blaming them they need to get their heads right i support bush going to war cause the world had to get rid of saddam and his sons they were a disease to this world and sadly the price of getting rid of them is the lives of soliders, innocent citzens and thousands more....we can only hope that this war will be over soon and that their might be a little hope of world peace!! sorry about some of my spelling..
Posted by: serenity at July 15, 2005 06:20 PM (pO1tP)
38
to the 15-year old aussie girl. enough with your very flawed arguments. you obviously have not got a clue on what your saying
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