In a remarkably disingenuous statement, Senator Chuck Schumer (D-NYC), has telegraphed the political shenanigans Democrats will employ to exploit the security leaks that exposed US tactics in the War on Terror. The Justice Department recently announced that they will investigate the sources used by the
in their stories about monitoring of international phone calls and emails between Americans and suspected al Qaeda operatives. And rightly so; whoever leaked to the NYT should spend a few years in Leavenworth.
Schumer is setting up the rationale for excusing acts that damaged national security interests. To put a point on it, he's suborning treason for political purposes.
Schumer is incorrect.
There is a process for Federal employees to become officially recognized as whistleblowers through the US Office of the Inspector General. Recognition by the OIG protects the employee from retaliatory employment actions, and triggers an OIG investigation of the charges made by the whistleblower.
It's not enough to simply declare oneself a whistleblower. And whistleblower disclosures are never sanctioned to outside agents, including and especially the Press.
1
Bluto
On a personal level - Schumer's our own fault. Republican Party or any alternative is non-existant in NYS.
Posted by: hondo at January 01, 2006 11:40 AM (3aakz)
2
True. Nearly half of New Yorkers (those outside the NYC Metro area) are not represented in the Senate, or in Presidential elections. I don't see a solution short of making NYC a separate state, and that's not going to happen as long as the plump upstate cow can be milked.
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at January 01, 2006 11:50 AM (RHG+K)
3
Staten Island tried breaking away - but to no avail. All true, but Bluto - the Albany region is pretty blue too.
Posted by: hondo at January 01, 2006 11:57 AM (3aakz)
4
Wow, look at all the misinformation here!
The OIG can't help you when the illegal activity stems from an executive order of the President.
And they aren't able to do anything substantive for whistleblowers anyway, let alone keep them from being retaliated against.
When the President commits an illegal act, the press is about the only place you can go.
Posted by: IO ERROR at January 01, 2006 12:21 PM (vhWf1)
5
ERROR,
if it's illegal, then impeach him. But it's not illegal.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 01, 2006 12:29 PM (8e/V4)
6
The Justice Dept. needs to go after the people who leaked the NSA story just exactly like they went after the people who leaked the info on Plame. Anyone who says any different is a hypocrit of monumental proportions.
Jail the reporters, do whatever it takes within the law to find the traitors. Then prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. These traitors need to be punished.
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 01, 2006 12:48 PM (rUyw4)
7
IO ERROR: you have lived up to your name. You don't know what you're talking about.
I have been a whistleblower. I do.
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at January 01, 2006 12:49 PM (RHG+K)
8
JJ,
the difference between the NSA leak and the Plame leak is that the former actually impacts our national security, and the latter was just gotcha politics.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 01, 2006 12:56 PM (8e/V4)
9
True, Carlos, but the libs have blazed the way on this one, and now we need to make them toe the line. No matter what they say, we should keep the pressure on, no matter what.
Now we have their butts in the furnace, and I say turn the fire up. Don't let up one tiny bit. Use their own rhetoric against them, do whatever it takes to get these traitors and get them in jail.
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 01, 2006 01:24 PM (rUyw4)
10
I'm tired of the Democrats coming up with bogus reasons to legitimize their inexcusable political games. It's time Schumer and his ilk were voted out of office.
Posted by: RepJ at January 01, 2006 01:26 PM (6krEN)
11
JJ,
agreed. We have their balls in a vice now, and they're going to try to politicize their way out of it. But it won't work. If Bush got caught doing something "illegal", then impeach him already and have done with it. But it's not illegal, and their balls aint going nowhere.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 01, 2006 01:29 PM (8e/V4)
12
Really, I'm going to enjoy watching the Democrats gyrating in every direction trying to cover their asses. It is truly going to be funny, and I await it with anticipation, starting today with the dumb ass Schumer.
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 01, 2006 01:34 PM (rUyw4)
13
Listening to calls going across the US border is no different than searching me and my stuff when I reenter the US on Wednesday. They can and will go through everything as you have no rights when it comes to Immigration and Customs rights to rifle through your things, your cellphones, your computer, your wallet, and ask you questions about why you have certain things and where you have been.
So what makes a phone call so special? If I mail some goods back to avoid customs, they still have the right to open the box. This is lots of hot air. The open issue is that the story claims that the Govt didn't listen to all calls. When I was living here I was under the assumption that I was being listened too. But then I must be smarter than these Democrats. Too bad they were smart enough to get elected!
----------
If Bush is really out to get you, why isn't your butt in gitmo?
New Yorkers are smart. Hilary tried to move into their state, and they sent her right back to DC!
Posted by: Fred Fry at January 01, 2006 01:36 PM (7N3qE)
14
Another point, Carlos, the people who leaked the NSA story are traitors and need to be dealt with as traitors, not merely as people who just broke the law because they disagreed with the practice. I would like to see them prosecuted as the traitors they are, and whatever the ultimate sentence is for treason, it should be enforced if these people are found guilty.
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 01, 2006 01:40 PM (rUyw4)
15
Chucky Schumer is himself a real pain in the rear he just canta ct with enough common sense be get it all streight he should just resign and save his fool face
Posted by: sandpiper at January 01, 2006 02:01 PM (JtcRt)
16
"The War on Terror"
Every time I see that phrase I wince. I think it's a horrible propaganda strategy. By declaring "war" on terrorism we're dignifying every terrorist as a soldier rather than what they are, criminals.
It's an important distinction. Soldiers, even those who fight and kill our soldiers, have done no wrong. They deserve to be treated honorably so long as they fight honorably. Terrorists are criminals. They are not conscripted to fight under the laws of their nation; their acts are violations of the laws of their own people (and everyone else's.) The only difference between their crimes and other murders and kidnappings is their cause. When we make terrorism special we make their cause special too, and this can only encourage them.
Posted by: ShannonKW at January 01, 2006 02:04 PM (dT1MB)
17
Shannon,
You must be one miserable guy. There is nothing that you don't find fault with. Geez, man, it is a war whether you like it or not, and it does not dignify these terrorists, no matter what you say.
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 01, 2006 02:18 PM (rUyw4)
18
hondo in a cynical Blofeld (I still have the cat) moment -
What if its ... "not leaked"?
What if its ... "planted".
Can the MSM be both "enemy" and "gullible fool"?
How do you thwart a domestic opponent? Noooo - you don't kill them ... you "use" them.
Programs apparently ... dated ... n' scaled back.
Targets specific ... and accepted consciously & "subconsciously" by majority of both political persuasions.
Big elections '06
Pity "successes" can not be exposed (classified) ... unless
Posted by: hondo at January 01, 2006 02:22 PM (3aakz)
19
>>>Soldiers, even those who fight and kill our soldiers, have done no wrong. They deserve to be treated honorably so long as they fight honorably. Terrorists are criminals.
Shannon,
This is a WAR, not a criminal prosecution. Bill Clinton thought it was a criminal prosecution too, and that's why he didn't take Osama bin Laden into custody when Sudan offered him the opportunity. He claimed not to have had enough evidence to hold them. That attitute is directly responsible for 9/11. Liberal morons.
Soldiers fighting for Hitler did plenty wrong, and we hung lots of them. So no problem if they want to call themselves "soldiers". And, by the way, jihadist "soldiers" do not fight honorably when they kill and headchop our civilians by the thousands, regardless of what you want to call them.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 01, 2006 03:37 PM (8e/V4)
20
Have I spooked the lib/leftists yet?
Posted by: hondo at January 01, 2006 06:30 PM (3aakz)
21
Something spooked them because they disappeared. Probably the truth spooked them, as they have no defense against it.
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 01, 2006 07:43 PM (rUyw4)
22
same ole shit, you all still sound like little pussies peeing yourselves continuously. Kill freedom for freedoms sake. How virtuous! Your founding fathers would be on your side for sure (yes stalin and hitler)...you dicks are amazing.
eat shit paste eaters.
e
Posted by: ernie at January 01, 2006 08:26 PM (X4Dyg)
23
paste eaters????
Who has a copy of Dr Demento's Dictionary?
Posted by: hondo at January 01, 2006 08:31 PM (3aakz)
24
ernie,
You little bed-wetting pin head, begone! Before someone gives me your IP address and I hunt you down like the worm you are.
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 01, 2006 08:33 PM (rUyw4)
25
Maybe - pasta or pasties? Both - what's your point?
Posted by: hondo at January 01, 2006 08:40 PM (3aakz)
26
ernie,
when you Libs bring on your "revolution" I hope and pray that you're at the head of that mob. I want it so bad its killing me.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 01, 2006 08:41 PM (8e/V4)
27
Edible pasties, yeah - sure ... not the tassles though. I'm confused!
Posted by: hondo at January 01, 2006 08:44 PM (3aakz)
28
The problem for Dems is most people see the leaks as defacto aimed at getting them killed.
Believe me after 9/11 ordinary people don't live in total denial, they do think about it. The idea that terrorists could "never" attack us at home is dead.
Whats the upside for Dems to be on the side of leakers trying to get the average American killed (by shutting down stuff that oh I dunno actualy WORKS?)
Can someone tell me that? Where's the upside for Dems? Considering that most people figure they are weak on terrorists to begin with?
Posted by: Jim Rockford at January 02, 2006 12:32 AM (4878o)
29
Schumer incorrectly thinks this is even remotely like the Plame case whereby when one "leaks" the name of an agent, it has to be that they know they've put someone in danger to be prosecuted. He's trying hard to put these two issues in the same classification. For one thing, Plame was never in danger as proven by the fact that she and Schmoopsie immediately went on the lecture circuit and jaunted all over the country to tout his book.
Posted by: Oyster at January 02, 2006 05:05 AM (YudAC)
30
Agent Brown asks, did Improbulus Maximus catch his sausage yet?
Posted by: Agent Smith at January 02, 2006 06:23 AM (b1Uko)
31
IM might make sausage out of you dumb ass agents!
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 02, 2006 08:45 AM (rUyw4)
32
Do you suppose Chucky Shumer would drop the whole domestic spying BS charge if he could be convinced that it was motivated by trying catch terrorists not trample civil librerties?
Or would that motivation make him oppose it even more?
Posted by: Stephen Macklin at January 02, 2006 08:47 AM (DdRjH)
33
Stephen, you are right. It is nothing more than Bush Derangement Syndrome. If the NSA discovered a plot to explode a nuclear device in NYC, Schumer would still not be satisfied. It's not about the intelligence.
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 02, 2006 09:18 AM (rUyw4)
34
ernie:
As the NSA routinely intercepts communications throughout the globe, some of which is intercepted in foreign countries, could you please tell me how the law is being broken? especially when the intercept is being initiated by an
inbound communication to a person living inside the United States ?
Could you also explain the difference of intercepting a phone call from a foreign country to a U.S citizen, versus the U.S Customs checking the content of a package sent to a U.S citizen from abroad?
Why is it illegal to check suspected terrorist communications originating from abroad, but it is legal to intercept U.S citizens mail from abroad and search them?
Posted by: dave at January 02, 2006 10:12 AM (CcXvt)
35
Left or right It seems that every one always thinks that the laws should only apply to others. Honesty is always the best policy: at some point the truth almost always comes out. Not always but usually. And name calling and threats tsk tsk tsk I still remember when IM called me a bed wetter. It really hurt and I told my mom.
Posted by: john Ryan at January 02, 2006 10:41 AM (ads7K)
36
Really, John, you should move out of your mother's house. They have a name for the malady that afficts you, but hey, since you deep-sixed the name calling, I will just say it is the malady without a name. But, on the plus side, happy New Year to you and your mother!
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 02, 2006 11:09 AM (rUyw4)
37
poor ernie would SHOCKED, SHOCKED to learn that our government has every right to check inbound packages too (let alone phone calls), and to do body cavity searches at customs. Can you imagine the shitstorm of hysteria when the Libs finally figure that one out. Of course, it's all "Bush's" doing.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 02, 2006 12:03 PM (8e/V4)
38
lil' ernie is a troll
lil' ernie stops by to screech and rage solely to get a re-action.
lil' ernie will not engage - that's not what he wants.
lil' ernie wants your attention (of any kind), like a child wants ice cream.
So, why in God's name do some of you keep givin' this kid ice cream?
He is solely a theme to practice one-line jokes off.
Posted by: hondo at January 02, 2006 01:11 PM (3aakz)
39
The same reason we feed the dumb ass agents. Just for the fun of it.
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 02, 2006 02:37 PM (rUyw4)
40
hondo's Charlie Brown moment ...
Aaarrrggghhhh!!!!
Posted by: hondo at January 02, 2006 05:58 PM (3aakz)
41
"Good grief, hon.., er, Charlie Brown"!
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 02, 2006 06:33 PM (rUyw4)
42
And poor john ryan still thinks the truth prevails. The truth comes at a cost and is far too painful for most.
Posted by: Oyster at January 02, 2006 07:21 PM (YudAC)
43
This is truly dissapointing...42 previous comments and not one "put-a-bullet-in-the-back-of-a-liberal's-head-and-a-toss-'em-into-a-ditch" call. Maximus on vacation?
Posted by: Artemus Gordon at January 02, 2006 11:08 PM (oxMjD)
44
artie:
Do you mean the way her husband Bill acted during his terms,
in exactly the same way that President Bush has done? Not a problem. One correction: this was done
avec, not
sans, Congressional input - where do you think the leak came from?
Btw, you might find this 1982 NYT story interesting:
COURT SAYS U.S. SPY AGENCY CAN TAP OVERSEAS MESSAGES
By DAVID BURNHAM, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES (NYT) 1051 words Published: November 7, 1982
A Federal appeals court has ruled that the National Security Agency may lawfully intercept messages between United States citizens and people overseas, even if there is no cause to believe the Americans are foreign agents, and then provide summaries of these messages to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at January 03, 2006 01:27 AM (RHG+K)
45
If we all agree that the needed ends justify these extraordinary means...
artie,
Bill Clinton Signed Executive Order that allowed Attorney General to do searches without court approval
http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo/eo-12949.htm
Jimmy Carter Signed Executive Order on May 23, 1979: "Attorney General is authorized to approve electronic surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence information without a court order."
http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo12139.htm
[Now I'll stand back and watch you dance.]
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 03, 2006 02:13 AM (8e/V4)
46
What dirty work has this reptile been up to besides being such a liar?
Posted by: sandpiper at January 03, 2006 10:18 AM (8W+Ht)
47
artie,
re "superceding" FISA, and "Senate consent", if the Carter and Clinton EO's didn't violate FISA (presumably because they "advised" the Senate), then neither did Bush's order:
BUSH: CONGRESS MEMBERS WERE BRIEFED ON EAVESDROPPING -- "A DOZEN TIMES..."
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/17/D8EI32N00.html
RE “if you’re not guilty you have nothing to worry about” school of constitutional law", well that's just too bad then. If it wasn't a story then, then it's not a story now. You don't get to be selective about your outrage.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 03, 2006 10:42 AM (8e/V4)
48
>>>"Well, the ones who've spoken out didn't seem to know anything about it.
Because they are not members of the Senate Intelligence Commitee. Advise and consent comes from the committees-- not open sessions of Congress. And if certain politicians are "outraged" that they didn't know about it, boo woop dee doo. They're on the wrong committee.
>>>"I have not seen nor have I heard of one yet who has stepped forward in the President's defense and said, "Wait a second, we knew all about this."
Of course not, they think they have Bush by the balls. And even if they did say that, it wouldn't be reported anyway.
You have yet to show me how this is materially different than the Carter/Clinton EOs. Until you do, this is just gotcha politics. Keep dancing.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 03, 2006 11:01 AM (8e/V4)
49
>>>"As far as Bush support "probably not being reported", you lost me there. More of that "MSM" stuff I guess."
Unless you can show me that Dems are in the business of carrying water for Bush, then it's a non-issue that you, Artie, haven't heard Democrat senators rushing to his defense. And even if they did, it wouldn't be reported. I stand by that.
What does George Will say, in particular, about this? I think you would have quoted him already if it was that bad.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 03, 2006 11:26 AM (8e/V4)
50
artie,
if you and George Will are right-- that Bush didn't tell Congress-- then I capitulate. Bush claims to have told them on several occassions. Do you have proof that he didn't?
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 03, 2006 12:05 PM (8e/V4)
51
artie,
do you have proof that Clinton informed the Senate? That Carter did? Until I see the evidence I'm going to assume they didn't.
In fact, Clinton did not even feel he needed to inform them:
"The Clinton administration argued that the president has "inherent authority" to order physical searches — including break-ins at the homes of U.S. citizens — for foreign intelligence purposes without any warrant or permission from any outside body."
http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200512200946.asp
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 03, 2006 12:26 PM (8e/V4)
52
Interesting that Clinton would even feel the need for warrantless break ins-- even before 9/11. What was the urgency? I've said it before and I'll say it again. Libs are soft stalinists and have a real totalitarian streak.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 03, 2006 12:59 PM (8e/V4)
53
Wow, you guys have been busy without me. For those who wondered, I went to visit family for a couple of days, and had a great time. I watched a bald eagle fly over my sister's house all day Monday; she has a house on the river in a gorge in the mountains and the area is a wildlife haven, where ducks, geese, cormorants, kingfishers, coots, seagulls, ospreys, hawks, and eagles are as common as pigeons in the city. Monday the temperature was around 70 degrees, with a fair sky and a warm southern breeze. Damn it's good to live in the South. There's also the benefit of having very few liberals around, which in itself is enough reason to love the place.
Anyway, I'm still too tired from the trip, too blissed out from the experience, and too busy planning a real estate investment to comment much, except to say that Schumer and the rest of the libtards should be tied together by the neck en masse, like a huge, stinking daisychain, with a large stone at either end for sinkers, and shoved off into an abandoned strip mine, then the mine should be filled in.
P.S.
Please remember the families of the trapped coal miners in West Virginia. This episode reminds me of something that happened in my hometown 25 years ago, when another 13 men were buried in a mine explosion that was heard 50 miles away, and in which several children I was in school with lost their fathers.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at January 03, 2006 01:14 PM (0yYS2)
54
>>>It says right in the document you provided that he did, through his Deputy AG.
It says no such thing. It only says the AG is "authorized to approve physical searches." Given that Clinton felt he had "inherent authority" to make those searches without Congressional approval, and given there's no proof that he ever sought that approval, I see no reason beyond gotcha politics why this is an issue now.
It boils down to this, if Clinton does it, everybody (including Republicans) is ok with it; if Bush does it, Dems are up in arms about it. The fact that our enemy will benefit from it doesn't factor into their reasoning. You wonder why we think you're traitors?
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 03, 2006 01:23 PM (8e/V4)
55
Wasn't one of Clinton's intelligence gathering orders used to enact surveillance on subversive groups after the Oklahoma bombing? so that would also be terrorism related, although domestic suspects were spied upon.
Posted by: dave at January 03, 2006 01:47 PM (CcXvt)
56
artie,
her testimony before the Senate was about this so-called "inherent authority", not about a specific request for a search or wiretap.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 03, 2006 01:55 PM (8e/V4)
57
artie:
What about communications that are intercepted outside the United States, that focus on specific foreign phone numbers?
If those communications are inbound to the United States you believe they require a warrant?
Posted by: dave at January 03, 2006 02:02 PM (CcXvt)
58
I wouldn't know about "Newsweek" it's a leftard rag.
So let me see. you have no specific idea what types of surveillance are done by the NSA, if the intercepts were made abroad, or if they were targetted, but Newsweek prints an article, and you're believing we're in a Stalinist society now?
It's amazing that whole argument about foreign -> domestic -> protected, I'm assuming then the U.S postal service have to apply for a warrent to open packages sent to me from outside the country, or a Customs agent needs a warrent to open my suitcase in the airport?
Posted by: dave at January 03, 2006 02:18 PM (CcXvt)
59
I don't like powers that answer to no one and what I'm seeing now smacks of Stalinism, at least to me.
Posted by: artie at January 3, 2006 01:30 PM
Is the statement I specifically referred to.
An immediate family member of mine, works for British SIGINT, and while he did not tell me specifics due to the OSA, he did tell me that the British MOD routinely intercepted communications for allied countries, and passes on intelligence they had intercepted themselves if deemed important for an allies national security.
Not all information the NSA gathers, or uses comes from domestic surveillance / sources.
Posted by: dave at January 03, 2006 02:53 PM (CcXvt)
60
The same thirty years of surveillance law, that turned out ineffective and lacking when three thousand of your fellow countrymen were killed in a terrorist attack?
So let's make one of those "ticking timebomb" scenario's everyone is so crazy about.
September 8th 2001, a routine random sampling of telecommunication sources identifies an inbound communication to Mohammed Atta in the U.S, which is identified as suspicious and the data is marked for extrapolation by an analyst.
You're telling me that the U.S should wait to use information received in random sampling / targetted samplings before using the intelligence within? the problem with your scenario is the fact that it is known that terrorists routinely use "disposable phones" / email addresses or use a phone once.
Our enemies are not limited by law, and know they can evade detection by using disposable communication methods, you however believe it is correct to seek blindfolding our eyes, unless a court rules that it's "ok" to use intelligence. Wow.
Posted by: dave at January 03, 2006 03:57 PM (CcXvt)
61
How about the judicial block on recovering information stored on Zacarias Moussaoui's Laptop Computer?
He was identified before September 11th as a terrorism suspect (as documented in the "Phoenix memo") who also attended the flight schools? However the court decided that information was not to be recovered.
Your own point, refers to numerous Judicial blocks of actionable intelligence pre-9/11.
Actually I don't believe the plans were laid out in full, but used code words, and as such may already be known, due to the fact the NSA do nothing but code breaking.
You want Judges to tell you what intelligence is actionable and what to act on? do you take your car to a barbers shop to be fixed too?
If you're receiving communications from people already identified as having ties to terrorists, you're saying the suspect has the right for a court to decide the link?
Posted by: dave at January 03, 2006 04:33 PM (CcXvt)
62
All the law in the world won't stop it. Lawmakers often pass a law to do this or that. Because they have to to make it look like they are doing stuff. So do the new laws protect us? Well maybe a little bit. Bluto made the point to me the other day about yes we are less free now than say 1900 but do you really miss those freedoms? Well no not really I don't know any better. But the same argument was used by British Loyalists. At the time citizens of the British Empire were the most free in the world and how dare Americans want more. So I ask you, would you have been a loyalist then? Should the governemt seek to find attackers before they strike hell yes and with whatever means they have during wartime. What most people miss is that this info cannot be used in court. It may be used to seek a warrant to get info that can be used in court or used to prevent an enemy action. People worried about Gov't eyeballs are about 100 years late. Why do they not worry about corporate info collection? That is prevalent and can be bought by the gov't or whomever? It upsets me but not too much because I never thought "they" were not watching already. We should limit government as much as we can just because that's what we are about. But this "evil" spy idea is a bit much. I doubt innocents have too much to worry about. Do you really think they waste time when they pick up nothing? No they go looking for the real deal. To not look for terrorists using what methods we can equates to tuning off the tracking of the USSR during the Cuban missle crisis. If you want to be pissed at someone for taking your privacy and freedom try UBL or Zawahiri or Zaqueery.
Posted by: Howie at January 03, 2006 04:53 PM (D3+20)
63
It's amazing after September 11th, and the original World Trade Center attack, people are still calling for terrorism to be handled by the Law.
While the F.B.I has an APB out for Bin Laden since long before September 11th 2001, I am sure he will not be captured by U.S law enforcement.
However, that aside the President has within his authority to issue an Executive Order, in the case of
In re Neagle (1890), the Supreme Court said that the President was not limited to laws that had been passed by Congress, but the President could administer laws based on those growing out of the Constitution itself, international relations and "all the protections implied by the nature of the Government under the Constitution"
Source: Government By Decree.
An Executive Order, can be classified and unavailable to the public, and can in some cases supercede things that Congress have ruled against.
People such as yourself after September 11th 2001, were asking "What did the President know? When?" and asked why our intelligence was flawed, now when the Government follows suggestions made in the 9/11 Commission people want the judicial branch to rule on issues of national security. This is a nation of laws, and if the President issued an EO to authorize communication interception by the NSA, I'm not sure who will be calling it illegal.
Posted by: dave at January 03, 2006 05:07 PM (CcXvt)
64
artie:
I'm going to give you two examples, as one referers to a controversial act by President Clinton, I'll give another by President Reagan, I do not adopt the philosophy of "Clinton did it too!" or "But Clinton got a Blowjob!!"
In 1996 there was an attempt to pass the Heritage Areas act in Congress, but the effort went down in defeat. Under the original act, Congress would have the authority to designate areas of land as heritage zones. Undeterred by the failed package, the Clinton administration simply repackaged the act and issued it as an executive order. On September 11th 1997 President Clinton issued Executive Order 13061, which "officially" established the American Heritage Rivers Initiation (AHRI).
President Ronald Reagan's executive order of September 1986, which authorized arms shipments to Iran, was a classified order and therefore not known to the public. He had to postpone notification for the order. If information had leaked out, arm could have come to the hostages that were being held in Lebanon by groups closely tied with Iran. Still, this situation illustrates the breadth of this presidential prerogative
Posted by: dave at January 03, 2006 05:28 PM (CcXvt)
65
Bottom line one: artie's problem is that he doesn't realize we're at war. Nor does artie seem to realize that much more menacing things than this NSA surveillance have happened over and over again in times of war - in this country.
Adams and the Alien and Sedition Act, Lincoln and the suspension of habeas corpus, Roosevelt and the internment of Japanese Americans. None of these involved theoretical hair-splitting, either; each was an out-and-out suspension of the normal ways of doing business, which had serious consequences for real people.
And all of them ended when the threat passed.
Bottom line two: artie doesn't give two shits in a flying rat's ass about anyone's civil liberties. The bobbing and weaving inherent in his posts proves to my satisfaction that artie's motives are political, not libertarian.
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at January 03, 2006 05:33 PM (RHG+K)
66
Bluto once again sums the thread up quite nicely for us.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 03, 2006 07:04 PM (8e/V4)
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My thread artie. Pick another one to spew DU propaganda and bile.
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at January 04, 2006 01:29 AM (RHG+K)
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I never cease to be amazed how idiot liberals like artie can talk/type all day long, producing thousands of words, and say exactly nothing.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at January 04, 2006 09:18 AM (0yYS2)
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Like I thought...no guts. Well, as long as YOU read it, I'm happy. What a fag.
Posted by: artie at January 04, 2006 11:12 AM (UHKaK)
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Actually, I don't have to read them, just put a check in the "delete" box.
Now you face a choice. You can decide to stop pitching fits, or you can be banned, as well as flushed. And the banning will involve both your home computer in Appleton and your work machine in Oshkosh.
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at January 04, 2006 11:24 AM (RHG+K)
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Ah, you finally took a few minutes to track my IP address and location through my regional provider--not exactly a technical triumph but likely big news to you. Any other personal info you need, feel free to ask. Presented with these choices, I'll take banning (go two other IPs never used at this site yet!)
Posted by: artie at January 04, 2006 12:05 PM (UHKaK)
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Where exactly is Mountain View, anyway, northern or southern California? That is where I traced YOUR IP to ...
Posted by: artie at January 04, 2006 12:57 PM (UHKaK)
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I couldn't tell you. I live near Syracuse.
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at January 04, 2006 01:53 PM (RHG+K)
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lol. I guess you might want to leave the "tracing" to someone who knows what they're doing artie.
Posted by: dave at January 04, 2006 03:10 PM (CcXvt)
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