Images from a video of the jihadis of the Islamic Thinkers Society below. This is the group that,
. He makes a good point about our reaction to flag desecration vs. the childish actions of Muslims over Koran abuse. However, he is way off the mark in the rest of the post. As a loyal follower of the
(who advocates vigorous debate amongst ourselves), I must stand up and point out that my right-wing friend at Wizbang makes a
logical error.
No freedom or liberty can be understood as anything but ordered and contextual. What this means is that what is thought of as a liberty in one context must be weighed against other liberties, and that sometimes these acts may be even considered criminal. From the Schenck (1919) case, for insance, comes the famous (if not discredited) example that people generally have the liberty to say whatever they wish, but they cannot yell fire in a crowded theater. The context of the theater changes the permissible action of shouting fire.
War also changes the context. We are in a war with jihadi inspired terrorists. In the context of war, embedded in the further context of a community which may have at least some minor percentage of those that are sympathetic to the cause, then advocating for the cause of the enemy ceases to be protected speech. In fact, this is a classic example of of the exception carved out in Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969): "Freedoms of speech and press do not permit a State to forbid advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action"
I would argue that the word imminent ought to be dropped from the legal rule set up in Brandenburg. If 9/11 has taught us anything it is that terrorist acts may take years of planning. It has also taught us that our freedoms and liberties may be used against us in order to destroy those very liberties.
So, do I want flag desecration to be forbidden? No, of course not. What I do want is for incitement to take up arms against the US to be forbidden when the US is in a shooting war.
more...
1
how come none of these idiots are in custody, for providing comfort to the enemy?
Posted by: dave at June 08, 2005 04:27 PM (fsJ2z)
2
Indeed. Another question: How come no one went over and popped these bastards in the mouth?
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at June 08, 2005 04:28 PM (JQjhA)
3
probably afraid the cops would arrest them.
Posted by: dave at June 08, 2005 04:32 PM (fsJ2z)
4
Yeah, but could you see a jury convicting?
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at June 08, 2005 04:40 PM (JQjhA)
5
I fear I have no answer in the current climate.
Did some of your posts disappear?
Posted by: dave at June 08, 2005 04:53 PM (fsJ2z)
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at June 08, 2005 04:54 PM (JQjhA)
7
Just when I refresh I no longer see the "California cell", Al-sunni or Syria posts.
Posted by: dave at June 08, 2005 04:56 PM (fsJ2z)
8
Try, er, scrolling down...or maybe your refreshing on the individual archive link rather than on the main page???
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at June 08, 2005 04:58 PM (JQjhA)
9
twas my browser, I run it with a pretty funky configuration -- my bad!!
Posted by: dave at June 08, 2005 05:03 PM (fsJ2z)
10
Question:
If these are 'home growns' like Johnny Taliban, what should be done with them? You would not have the luxury of deporting them to a country of origin, and would the court uphold any charge against them, especially as they would most likely claim to being denied their constitutional rights to freedom of speech / expression?
Posted by: dave at June 08, 2005 05:21 PM (fsJ2z)
11
Until today I thought all Americans are idiots. But now I see that some americans like Islamic Thinkers Society are not so stupid. I enjoyed the video,great show, thanks.
Posted by: sadam at June 08, 2005 05:46 PM (jw0u5)
12
Isn't "Islamic Thinkers" an oxymoron?
And considering that the Koran is the word of Allah and not open to interpretation, what would there be to be think about?
Posted by: Don Miguel at June 08, 2005 06:12 PM (+KixN)
13
Now, does anyone need advice as to what kind of gun to buy or where to get ammo? We will be fighting in the streets in a few years people, if it takes that long, be prepared.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at June 08, 2005 06:39 PM (0yYS2)
14
Improbulus,
get yourself an AK and a couple thousand rounds of ammo. It's a good trusty gun ideal for shooting jihadists and traitors. You can get a brand new one for $250 - $600, and the ammo goes for about $100 for a box of 1,000.
Posted by: Carlos at June 08, 2005 08:40 PM (8e/V4)
15
Can anyone tell me if the 1st Amendment right covers speech that calls for the overthrow of the federal government? Would this not be the same as yelling "fire" in a crowded theater? To call for the overthrow of the federal government and the Constitution is an act of sedition. Supporting a foreign power, even a terrorist group, is that not treason? Much like those wacky leftists who are trying to dismantle our military by banning recruiters from school campuses and enouraging soldiers to desert or become conscientious objectors, are they not acting againstthe government. I am all for free speech and the importance to protect it. But just like the "fire" example above... there are limits...
Posted by: Duncan Avatar at June 08, 2005 09:26 PM (Ban8v)
16
Thanks Carlos, but I'm already set, I just worry about the average slob who doesn't know which end the bullet comes out of.
And yes, Duncan, it is seditious speech and not covered under the First, but our government has no balls. When the fighting comes, it will be up to We the People, because the government will be worried about offending those who are trying to kill us.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at June 08, 2005 10:56 PM (0yYS2)
17
I guar-RON-Fcuking-Tee these brave souls did this in the jihadi barrio, no other souls to come and put the smack down on 'em. Cowards.
Posted by: Justin_Wilson at June 08, 2005 10:57 PM (d6mij)
18
Hey Psychotic Maximus,
Did you ever track down that osama guy with your super 1337 hacker skills? What a fucking bitch. Hope you shoot yourself while you're jacking off with your guns.
Posted by: Jim at June 08, 2005 11:20 PM (FzCFs)
19
Although I disagree with their methods, the idiots in the video never actually call for terrorist actions against the US. They are just trying to inspire other muslims to speak up against the US government. In total bad taste, but perfectly legal.
Posted by: Jim at June 08, 2005 11:39 PM (FzCFs)
20
Jim,
I'm just thrilled as a punch drunk monkey that you actually recognize them as idiots. Well done!
Posted by: Carlos at June 08, 2005 11:47 PM (8e/V4)
21
I just don't understand why you people worry so much. I went to their website and its obvious this group is a bit radical. They even demonstrate against "progressive muslims". The fact of the matter is that if you look at their mantra, it says "Our struggle is always intellectual & political non-violent means." As long as they stick to that then what they do is perfectly legal no matter how stupid. The second they resort to violence they will be stopped.
Note their website doesn't say "we will kill you, and get all of new york next time." If it did, they would be arrested. So all they can do is hold their stupid rallies that only makes matters worse and hurts Islam. So instead of being paranoid gun freaks, remember that they are idiots and that the second they even think about playing terrorist like their "heroes" they will be brought down by the government. Honestly you don't think the FBI is watching these guys? Freaking relax...
Posted by: Jim at June 09, 2005 12:02 AM (FzCFs)
22
I just don't understand why you people worry so much.
Jim,
the only thing that worries me is some jihadi smuggling a nuke into an American city, aided and abetted by people like this. Otherwise, no problem, it's just fun to hate these clowns.
Posted by: Carlos at June 09, 2005 12:06 AM (8e/V4)
23
Jim...I guarantee that nobody in here can track me down. Why would they anyway? Are the thought police gonna bust down my door? Really...they'd end up with a dead-end IP. I hope you're not calling me a bitch, btw. Maximus is way too versed with guns for an accident, but in the heat of passion, you never know. I wouldn't mess with him either because unless you are slick as shit he is smart enough to find you if he needed some target practice! Carlos...you just mentioned my #1 prediction. I'd be pretty surprised if that doesn't happen in our lifetimes, and what a sad day that will be.
Posted by: osamabeenhiding at June 09, 2005 12:08 AM (B9hEP)
24
I just can't stand people who threaten others over the internet like maximus has done before and now he is talking about going into the streets and fighting some war. It's ridiculous. Kinda funny how first you say you aren't afraid then you say I should watch out. I guess you are "slick as shit" then. Honestly shouldn't you kids be going to bed soon?
Posted by: Jim at June 09, 2005 12:17 AM (FzCFs)
25
Jim,
some christian got his throat slashed, and his family's too, because he played these blog games with the wrong muslims. They actually hunted him down and massacred his family, but you Lefties (not you osama!) are more afraid of "christian fascists" taking over the country. Do you see why I have zero respect for you Lefties? You are morally confused, and that's putting it very kindly because I like you.
Posted by: Carlos at June 09, 2005 01:16 AM (8e/V4)
26
Jim, you are so naive. This is called intimidation and incitement. You can look at it anyway you like, but these guys standing on the street yelling this swill through loud speakers and burning the flag while people are out going about their daily business, cars driving by, etc. is blatant fear mongering. You think these scare tactics don't cause fear and intimidation? And all you have to say is to quote what's on their website? And you don't understand why anyone worries? Of COURSE the FBI is watching them. And as soon as one of them is arrested, you'll jump to their defense questioning their motives.
How do you think the store owners behind them feel? You think they got any business that day? You think anyone felt safe to walk down that street? You might not be worried. Their not in your neighborhood. I, on the other hand, have the ability to think beyond my own friggin back yard. All you can do is quote their website and get technical about how the law applies to their activities.
You seem to have a habit of not reading up on anything before you start berating people. Do you know who was bankrolling these guys and why their website went down for a while? I'll let you Google it. I'm not going to do all your work for you. Do you know there are reported instances being investigated of them threatening individuals who speak out against them?
I think you need to loosen up your turbin and start paying better attention.
Posted by: Oyster at June 09, 2005 06:18 AM (YudAC)
27
Rusty, the video is gone now. As a matter of fact the entire website is gone.
Posted by: Oyster at June 09, 2005 06:39 AM (YudAC)
28
Every time I see our flag burned by a muslim, I am going to wipe my ass with a page from the Koran.
Posted by: FILTHY ALLAH at June 09, 2005 08:11 AM (yBHNA)
29
I will be happy to pitch in with bail money for anyone who throws one of these flag stompers a beating.
I want their dirty beards ripped out. Step on our flag? Fuck you.
Posted by: OBsnooks at June 09, 2005 08:13 AM (yBHNA)
30
This just pisses me off. I'm afraid (not in fear) the rederic these fools spout is for real. We need to take this seriously. The are calling for the overthrow of our government by violent means. Sedition indeed at the least.
Posted by: Howie at June 09, 2005 08:38 AM (D3+20)
31
So, hit them first. Simple.
I am sure the FBI is all over these idiots.
Posted by: Filthy Allah at June 09, 2005 08:43 AM (yBHNA)
32
I don't believe for one second the line about them using only non-violent means. Those jackoffs in Lodi went so far as to condemn the 9/11 attacks and signed a peace pledge with the local Jewish & Christian leaders. It's a bullshit tactic that goes back to the 11th Century.
They should be jailed on sedition charges. I'm surprised they didn't get their asses beat. If anything fits the legal definition of "fighting words", it's this.
Posted by: disgruntledinca at June 09, 2005 10:02 AM (8DwXG)
33
I have the video if any one can host it. E-mail me if you can.
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at June 09, 2005 10:59 AM (JQjhA)
34
They are having a little biker rally called "Hog Rock" this weekend in So ILL. I would like to invite all Jihadis and any other flag burners/desecraters to attend and demonstrate their craft to these fine ladies and gentlemen. There will be a wet t-shirt contest which is always won by two (good gay) chicks who take it all the way for cheers. There will also be a pickle licking and popsickle sucking contest as well as a bike show and bike pull. So grab up your flag and head on down I dare you. Just follow ILL 1 all the way south till you see the sign. (no my wife won't let me go)
Posted by: Howie at June 09, 2005 12:02 PM (D3+20)
35
"some christian got his throat slashed, and his family's too, because he played these blog games with the wrong muslims. They actually hunted him down and massacred his family"
No shit...Do you have a link about this Carlos? I never heard about this. That's fucked...was it on US soil too?
Posted by: osamabeenhiding at June 09, 2005 12:09 PM (B9hEP)
36
Osama, all prior references I could find to the story point to the NY Post which has moved it or something. However, here are a couple of blogs that wrote about it when it occurred (there are a lot more. A Google search will bring up a ton of stuff):
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004660.php
and they did a follow up here
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/2005/03/005241print.html
and Powerline is another
http://powerlineblog.com/archives/009210.php
and their follow up is here
http://powerlineblog.com/archives/009221.php
Posted by: Oyster at June 09, 2005 12:30 PM (fl6E1)
37
Oyster: I hate to burst yer bubble there because I would not put it past em. But I think later on this turned out to be a robbery staged to look like a jihadi murder. I'm pretty swamped so I don't have time to look up links but you may want to check into how this eventually panned out. I'm pretty sure they caught the guy though.
Posted by: Howie at June 09, 2005 12:51 PM (D3+20)
38
Howie,
nothing was stolen, and they haven't caught anybody. It wasn't a robbery.
Posted by: Carlos at June 09, 2005 12:58 PM (8e/V4)
39
Rusty, the crux of my thesis is that I LIKE it when our enemies and other assholes go to such lengths to point themselves out. I'm far more concerned about sleepers and other covert agents; I believe the authorities got lots of pictures and will give lots of attention to those "Islamic thinkers" in the future.
And while I understand that certain things change during wartime, the idea of desecrating a flag posing such an imminent threat doesn't pass my personal "smell test."
Now, for advocating the violent overthrow of the government, and giving "aid and comfort" (which I understand has to mean something tangible, not just saying nice things about them), I'll buy the rope for hanging myself (thank you, Home Depot). But when it's limited to just abusing a flag, I'll content myself to laughing at them -- and keeping an eye on them in the future.
J.
Posted by: Jay Tea at June 09, 2005 12:58 PM (Rfqkp)
40
and ps, Howie, what kind of an idiot would "coverup" a robbery by committing mass murder. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Posted by: Carlos at June 09, 2005 12:59 PM (8e/V4)
41
Howie, you haven't burst my bubble. Im aware of the developments in the case. Yet, there are still a number of unanswered questions that no one, not the police, not anyone will address. I didn't give Osama any links that I didn't read myself. If you'll read the follow ups on both sites, you'll see what I mean. I haven't passed judgement on this either way. Nor is it my intention to sensationalize. My apologies if it appears that way.
Posted by: Oyster at June 09, 2005 01:05 PM (fl6E1)
42
I took a few minutes and did find this:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,149434,00.html
Like I said these jihadi types will take credit for anything it's part of their terror tactics.
Still not a lot of info anywhere.
Posted by: Howie at June 09, 2005 01:26 PM (D3+20)
43
I guess it's not the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Posted by: Carlos at June 09, 2005 01:39 PM (8e/V4)
44
Oh yeah it's stupid alright. Nothing like a bunch of dope, no sleep, and physical addiction to turn a person into a total moron.
Posted by: Howie at June 09, 2005 01:42 PM (D3+20)
45
Had you all been reading the Jawa every minute of every day you would have seen my post on this. Yeah, they caught the scumbags and it turned out to have nothing to do with the threats that were made against him at that Islamic forum (which, as one or two of you may recall, I was a subject of some discussion at the same forum which made me a little scared, to say the least!!)
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at June 09, 2005 01:45 PM (JQjhA)
46
I had one other thought on why was it Fox is the only one you can search and get this info. Obviously most of the MSM would let you go on beleiving the other claims of responsability thereby aiding the tactic I just spoke of. Hey we all get caught up in it. Don't feel bad
Posted by: Howie at June 09, 2005 01:45 PM (D3+20)
47
Howie: Pickle-licking contests? Who's sponsoring this? Biker-delicatessen owners? Now I've heard of everything!!!
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at June 09, 2005 02:06 PM (x+5JB)
48
YBP I'm not sure but it may be A.B.A.T.E. Last year there was about 20,000 bikes. Same kind of deal as the Sturgis and little Sturgis KY rallies. I intend to sit on the porch a while and check out the parade of freaks and bikes. I used to ride an old CB750 Honda quite a bit. Maybe in a few years I'll be able to take that up again.
Posted by: Howie at June 09, 2005 02:32 PM (D3+20)
49
Howie: A fellow teacher years back used to ride a Harley. He loved to hang with his "outlaw" biker friends. (Actually, decent chaps, many of them.)
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at June 09, 2005 03:10 PM (x+5JB)
50
Yeah the former president of the Joliet chapter is from my hometown. They are for the most part quite a bit of fun. Just don't ask about "business". His daughter was cool and a lot of them are just working stiffs like anyone else. Just watch out for the guy with tkob on his jacket. I certainly would not want to piss one off or burn a flag in front of them. I also probably would not accept a invitation to the club as well maybe I'm just not quite cut out for that.
Posted by: Howie at June 09, 2005 03:21 PM (D3+20)
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at June 09, 2005 03:56 PM (x+5JB)
52
takes care of business.
Posted by: Howie at June 09, 2005 04:42 PM (D3+20)
53
I mean tcob. Sorry I got a deadline bearing down on me like a mack truck.
Posted by: Howie at June 09, 2005 04:49 PM (D3+20)
54
Howie: I need to brush up on acronyms.
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at June 09, 2005 05:41 PM (C0pBN)
55
"Isn't "Islamic Thinkers" an oxymoron?
And considering that the Koran is the word of Allah and not open to interpretation, what would there be to be think about?"
Posted by: Don Miguel at June 8, 2005 06:12 PM
Reply:
"Islamic" means having to do with Islam. If you put the words "Islamic" and "Thinkers" together the meaning of that would be people who think islamically. Therefore, no it is not an oxymoron. It's funny how people here seem to act like they are experts on islam and muslim people yet they lack UTTERLY BASIC KNOWLEDGE OF THE RELIGION OR THE TERMINOLOGY associated with it. Do your research! And NO research doesn't mean going to biased websites and reading other ignorant views. It's not only illogical to that, it is dangerous. For muslims and non muslims a like.
Posted by: Person at October 18, 2005 01:39 PM (XZNSX)
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