After taking Sunday to think about this, let me do a couple of "take-backs."

I implied in this and an earlier post that the troops firing on Sgrena's vehicle was somehow part of Sgrena's bigger plan.

The accusation that this is wingnuttery are actually right-on. I'm embarassed that I made it. My apologies.

Now that would require some sort of conspiracy between Sgrena and the men who had negotiated for her freedom (at a price-tag of over $1 million from what we are now hearing.)

I feel stupid for having implied that such a conspiracy existed.

The most likely explanation is that Sgrena's driver simply did not follow orders to halt.

Now, why did Sgrena's driver not follow these orders?

Two hypothoses come to mind:

a) It was dark and the driver was confused about the identity of the soldiers mistaking them for insurgents

b) The driver believed the anti-American rhetoric of Sgrena and her likes. If the US is as Sgrena describes then why would you stop? Remember, for a large number of people in the world who watch al Jazeera or read left-wing newspaper's US soldiers are terrorists.

If the latter is true than the shooting incident becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Don't stop at an American chekcpoint because they shoot reporters. The reporters get shot because they don't stop at a US checkpoint.

However, for Sgrena to have been complicit in her own kidnapping requires no such grand conspiracy. It takes one reporter cooperating with the mujahadin council or other friends of the terrorist forces. That's it.

PS-Just to clarify I am apologizing for implying that the shooting was somehow part of a conspiracy to maker the US look bad.

I am not apologizing for earlier posts which alleged Sgrena was in no danger and may have been cooperating in her own captivity.

Posted by: Rusty at 08:14 AM | Comments (4) | Add Comment
Post contains 311 words, total size 2 kb.

Caption this photo of two pro-Syrian demonstrators in Lebanon. Winners announced Monday.

I figure since every one else does caption contests. That, and since tomorrow is my Blog Sabbath why not give friends and readers something to do other than look at porn and stock quotes.

This photo has serious photoshop potential too.........

Posted by: Rusty at 06:57 PM | Comments (36) | Add Comment
Post contains 57 words, total size 1 kb.

By Demosophist

I've been thinking lately about the process of nation-building in Iraq and elsewhere, under the difficult conditions imposed by a vicious terrorist insurgency. The prospects for the enterprise sometimes seem as likely as the quest for the Philosopher's Stone, the mythical device that was supposed to turn "dross into gold." Somehow the transfer of legitimacy from an occupying power to a new liberal democratic government, in a recently totalitarian society, seems just as implausible, and valuable. Recently I compared this bit of alchemy to a famous cycling contest, between American Lance Armstrong and Italian Marco Pantani, up the slopes of the bleak and legendary Mont Ventoux. Cycling is such a rich mix of competition and cooperation that it often supplies useful analogies for political processes, and this particular contest seemed appropriate because it involved an attempt by Armstrong to "render the victory" to another rider, in order to obtain cooperation of that rider's team in a larger strategy. The attempt was unsuccessful for a number of reasons. more...

Posted by: Demosophist at 06:55 PM | Comments (17) | Add Comment
Post contains 1835 words, total size 12 kb.

1 two questions 1. was this your dissertation? 2, was it approved? You know how to wear a dumb exJarhead out! My eyes hurt. We have been, are and will win the War on Terror. Have faith

Posted by: Rod Stanton at March 06, 2005 06:48 AM (l5t6M)

2 Rod: But did you like the title?

Posted by: Demosophist at March 06, 2005 08:31 AM (Dfdj0)

3 OK I liked the title. I read the entire thing and you owe me for a new set of glasses. The title inttrigued me.

Posted by: Rod Stanton at March 06, 2005 08:07 PM (l5t6M)

4 Didn't Nietzche say something along the lines of "only a fool muddies his water?" 1) You state the obvious when you make the theoretical comment that Iraq will be able to handle itself when it has a population that supports its government and that (in theory) their military will be able to overcome the insurgency once they are better trained. Also, if there's anything we've learned in the last 30 years is that you can't apply western rationality in determining what will happen in the Middle East. Also, a bike race analogy (or any analogy) wasn't really necessary, and likely bored most readers (constant thesaurus perusal notwithstanding). 2) A well-trained military does not guarantee stability. See most South American countries. While I have hope it does, there is no empirical evidence that would suggest this is always the case. Opinions are one thing, but to create a mini-thesis without really backing up your argument with any kind of tangible evidence (save for a bike analogy you admit is inadequate) leaves a lot to be desired.

Posted by: Venom at March 07, 2005 10:53 AM (dbxVM)

5 1) You state the obvious when you make the theoretical comment that Iraq will be able to handle itself when it has a population that supports its government and that (in theory) their military will be able to overcome the insurgency once they are better trained. Actually, I said the inverse of that. This and your other comments reveal that you don't really understand the point I'm making, which is not about either an Iraqi or American victory over the insurgency (which is something I assume will happen) but what role that plays in establishing the legitimacy of the regime. Suggest you consult something like a political science dictionary or encyclopedia, and look up the term "legitimacy" or "legitimation." Especially "social legitimation." You might also take a look at Lipset's The First New Nation.

Posted by: Demosophist at March 07, 2005 03:05 PM (Dfdj0)

6 "Actually, I said the inverse of that." Hahaha, that's great...despite the fact that the legitimacy of a government increases quite highly with the support of its population (which can be even higher if said government defeats an insurgency), you're "saying the inverse" of that. And yet trying to play up the logical consequences of this "inverse" at the same time. Very deep and mysterious. "This and your other comments reveal that you don't really understand the point I'm making..." Maybe that means you need to put the thesaurus down? I'm sure most people miss the points you're trying to make on a regular basis. Not because you're smarter and they're dumber, mind you. There's something to be said for concise points that don't meander all over the place. Legitimacy is, obviously, a consequence of a population supporting its government. If a people support their government, regardless of the means that government attained power, it has legitimacy in the eyes of its population. So, no, I didn't miss your point. I just didn't think I needed to "legitimize" your post with any more incredibly obvious analysis. "Suggest you consult something like a political science dictionary or encyclopedia, and look up the term "legitimacy" or "legitimation."" Thanks teach. Will that give me the insightful powers you cast with every verbose-ridden post?

Posted by: Venom at March 07, 2005 03:26 PM (dbxVM)

7 Hahaha, that's great...despite the fact that the legitimacy of a government increases quite highly with the support of its population (which can be even higher if said government defeats an insurgency), you're "saying the inverse" of that. Yeah, without legitimacy it won't have any support, but that's the least of it. The regime simply won't exist for very long. "Support" is simply a matter of having popular policies, and so forth, which has very little to do with this. (That's a matter of administrations, rather than regimes, if you want to get technical.) Conceptually you're not even in the ball park. Anyway, Venon... what makes you think anyone would be much interested in what you have to say (apart from pointing out conceptual errors that might mislead others) since you have a universally negative opinion of everything? It'd be like building a house with a .357.

Posted by: Demosophist at March 07, 2005 05:18 PM (Dfdj0)

8 "without legitimacy it won't have any support, but that's the least of it. " And you say I'm not in the ballpark...you're trying to put the cart before the horse with this statement. Popular support gives legitimacy, not the other way around. Otherwise, Saddam would have had a very legitimate government. But hey, how about I try to keep the illumination of conceptual errors to a minimum? "Anyway, Venon... what makes you think anyone would be much interested in what you have to say since you have a universally negative opinion of everything?" I don't think anyone would care what I have to say. Remember, I'm not at the point where I feel vain enough to have a blog. If you write in a blog, you open yourself to comment and criticism. If you don't like it, don't post. Besides, if you're going to write a monolithic post, you might want to keep in mind who your audience is. At this point, I'd bet that the majority of people who see your name likely skip your posts because your choice of words make even the simplest of issues a tiresome game of "how many big words will Demosophist use this time?" At which point, you have to ask yourself are you writing for the benefit of others or for yourself. I'm guessing the latter. So, why do it publicly? Oh, and I don't have a universally negative opinion of everything. Just when I see things that I think a)need questioning, b)are so inherently stupid, they require comment, or c)are ignorant.

Posted by: Venom at March 07, 2005 06:16 PM (dbxVM)

9 And you say I'm not in the ballpark...you're trying to put the cart before the horse with this statement. Popular support gives legitimacy... I'd bother to explain this to you, but you're such a nasty fellow what's the point? Pupular support is just popular support. It has little to do with social legitimacy. Again, I suppose it's too much to ask you to have enough humility to decide you may not have this topic knocked... but a good starting point is Max Weber. That's not so much for you, because you're pretty much unreachable, but in case anyone else is interested.

Posted by: Demosophist at March 07, 2005 06:59 PM (Dfdj0)

10 Holy smokes, you could split hairs until the cows come home, couldn't you? "It's not this legitimacy, it's that legitimacy." C'mon, it's common sense. Popular support makes all the difference in determining a legitimate government. You trying to dismiss it is pretty closed-minded. Considering that was the basis of your entire "argument" suggests to me you failed. "That's not so much for you, because you're pretty much unreachable, but in case anyone else is interested." lol...I guess you just glossed over my other point in that most people don't read your posts? I'm not really unreachable, unless someone is trying to argue a point they 1)haven't backed up (see your post) or 2)is inherently wrong (see your post). Writing a post that you crafted with every conceivable adjective at your disposal doesn't make your post "right," by the way. It just shows a need to attempt to confuse the writer into thinking you know what you're talking about. By the way, I noticed you completely avoided any defense of my take on your need to write gigantic posts. Maybe I hit the nail on the head? Surely you have the "humility" to realize that?

Posted by: Venom at March 08, 2005 08:50 AM (dbxVM)

11 *...to confuse the READER into thinking...

Posted by: Venom at March 08, 2005 08:52 AM (dbxVM)

12 Venom I think he said "fouls his doorstep". As in dump.

Posted by: Rod Stanton at March 08, 2005 11:54 AM (l5t6M)

13 Could be, Rod (though the "fouls his doorstep" has more flair). Either way, the message is the same.

Posted by: Venom at March 08, 2005 02:27 PM (dbxVM)

14 Holy smokes, you could split hairs until the cows come home, couldn't you? How does your inability to recognize a rather commonplace, standard and obvious distinction become my "ability to split hairs?" Equating "popular support" with political legitimacy is like equating applesaunce with jet fuel, observing that they're both sources of energy. George Washington had enough "popular support" to be elected, but so did Grover Cleveland and Jimmy Carter. The latter contributed precisely nothing to the legitimacy of the nation, while Washington contributed (for all practical purposes) everything. And for all I know Cleveland and Carter got a higher percentage of the vote. Legitimacy isn't popular support. It just looks like it, to the ignorant. Legitimacy is what your parents earned by telling you "no,' when you needed to hear it, which obvioushly wasn't often enough.

Posted by: Demosophist at March 09, 2005 02:15 AM (Dfdj0)

15 See, this is the problem with your argument. You're interpretation of the social legitimacy (or lack thereof) of Jimmy Carter's presidency is simply that: your interpretation. Perhaps your interpretation of social legitimacy is based on whether or not the society in question has engaged in some kind of nation-building (which again opens up the question as to what you actually consider "nation-building"). The "fans" of Jimmy Carter - i.e. the people who voted him in - might argue that his presidency did provide value in a socially legitimate sense. The problem is that you're confusing "identity" for "legitimacy" (oh, and cute comeback you slid in at the end, btw. I'll give you a free pass in the psychoanalysis, but I've got a few theories of mine own regarding your own upbringing). His presidency may not have contributed to the nation's identity in the same sense Washington's did, but is was legitimate in a social sense. If you were to argue that the Iraqis are in danger of losing their new identity without the efforts of the U.S. and its coaltion, I'd agree with you. However, this new country is still going to be socially legitimate with or without the U.S.'s help as long as the majority of Iraqis support whoever is elected. It's them, not you (or the U.S.) who defines the social legitimacy of their country. You're attempting to place your viewpoints (or those you subscribe to) as some kind of blueprint as to whether or not their country will be socially legitimate, while in fact its their perceptions that define what's legitimate or not. Their collective (read: majority) perceptions will define all of this. As such, their popular support plays a far greater role than you wish to admit.

Posted by: Venom at March 09, 2005 10:09 AM (dbxVM)

16 I'm really not going to belabor this topic any more, because you're apparently not even interested enough in learning or comprehension to bother to look up the concept somewhere (like Weber ferinstance). But suffice to say it's not "my definition" that's idiosyncratic, it's yours.

Posted by: Demosophist at March 09, 2005 10:54 AM (Dfdj0)

17 Thank you, because this exchange was becoming as boring as your post. The best part, though, is that you actually didn't prove a thing within your post, and like most wannabe philosophers can't back up shite.

Posted by: Venom at March 10, 2005 10:43 AM (dbxVM)

Hide Comments | Add Comment

Due to the overwhelming number of comments on recent posts we are unable to moderate at this time. Please feel free to e-mail Rusty Shackleford (see left sidebar) if you have any news tips, suggestions, or personal comments. Sorry--a little busy.

Oh, yes we have a problem with the comments remembering info. The only fix that we could find, so far, is that commenting will remember your info but only if you click on "comments" from the main page. If you try to comment from an archive page, you will have to retype your info each time.

Posted by: Rusty at 06:41 PM | Comments (1) | Add Comment
Post contains 107 words, total size 1 kb.

A shallow grave has turned up what appears to be the body of Westerners. In the past these reports have sometimes turned out to be wrong.

The reporter makes a few mistakes when listing the hostages and the inference that the could belong to any one of them. For instance, 'Sadeq Mohamed Sadeq' is likely 'Dean Sadek' as he is an immigrant and 'Dean' is probably his 'American' name. Also, we know the bodies can't be those of either Sadek or Roy Hallums since the grave was allegedly first found in September.

A video showing Dean Sadek was released last November on al Jazeera and Roy Hallums was not taken hostage until November of last year. Since we know Roy's family checks in with us from time to time this will be reassuring for them to hear.

Neither would the body likely be that of Army Pfc. Keith Maupin as the remains are described as wearing civilian clothes.

Interestingly, the report mentions one hostage that we have not heard about before Kirk von Ackermann, a contractor. more...

Posted by: Rusty at 06:21 PM | Comments (1) | Add Comment
Post contains 427 words, total size 3 kb.

CNN claims to have new photos of Abu Musab Zarqawi. If you see this man, please kill him. More pics below.

more...

Posted by: Rusty at 05:58 PM | Comments (18) | Add Comment
Post contains 30 words, total size 1 kb.

Update March 07: I have a new posts following the Sgrena story "Giuliana Sgrena Admits to Helping Terrorists, Lies About Shooting".

Suspicion continues to mount that Giuliana Sgrena, the journalist for the Italian Communist paper Il Manifesto, either faked her own abduction or became an accomplice after the fact with her jihadi captors.

Today Giuliana Sgrena told her version of the dramatic story contradicting US military claims that her car was fired upon when it failed to slow down at a Coalition check point. Bloomberg:

``It wasn't a checkpoint, but a patrol that started shooting after pointing some lights in our direction,'' the Ansa news agency cited Sgrena as telling the prosecutors. ``We hadn't previously encountered any checkpoint and we didn't understand where the shots came from.''

``I was never treated badly,'' Sgrena told her colleagues at Manifesto upon her arrival in Rome, according to Ansa.

UPDATE: NPR now reports that an anti-war rally is planned to celebrate Sgrena's release.

The Jawa Report has been predicting from day one that Sgrena would be released unharmed, and that on her release she would blame the US for her ordeal. The fact that her driver did not stop at a US checkpoint on a road scattered with checkpoints is more than a little odd--it is canny.

How does a driver in Iraq not know that the rules of engagement for Coalition forces are to fire upon any car which does not stop when ordered to?

While the Italian people wish to know why the US fired upon Sgrena, we in the US want to know why it was the Sgrena's car did not stop when ordered to do so?

Sgrena, continues her anti-Amricanism (Reuters):

"We thought the danger was over after my release to the Italians but all of a sudden there was this shoot-out, we were hit by a barrage of bullets," she told RAI TV by telephone.

Nicola Calipari, the senior secret service agent who had worked for her release, was telling her about what had been going on in Italy since her capture when the shooting started.

"He leaned over me, probably to protect me, and then he slumped down, and I saw he was dead," said Sgrena.

Sgena was kidnapped by her admitted friends in Iraq.

She was kidnapped while on the phone with another journalist.

A tape was released of her begging Italy to cave to the terrorists demands of pulling Italian troops out of Iraq the day before the Italian Senate was to vote on that very issue.

On the tape Sgrena appears to tell the 'terrorist' holding the camera to stop. He follows her order as if she is directing.

The tape came exactly two-weeks after she was captured.

One month to the day after her abduction she is released.

On the day of her release her car speeds toward a US checkpoint, fails to stop when ordered, fails to heed warning shots, and the car is ultimately fired upon.

In the end, who looks like the bad guys? The terrorists? The jihadis? The 'insurgents'? No, the US.

And what possible motivation, as I am frequently asked, might Sgrena have in being complicit in this whole thing?

Wired:

"I don't believe a word of the American version," said Oliviero Diliberto, head of the Italian Communist party, part of the main left-wing block led byformer premier Romano Prodi.

"The Americans deliberately fired on Italians. This is huge. All of the center-left must vote in parliament for the withdrawal of our troops."

And Iraq? Iraq is an imperialistic move motivated by greed, the desire for hegemeny, and to bolster the Zionist-imperialists in Palestine. Iraq has been a blood-bath with tens of thousands of children dying so that the US could gain control over Mideast oil.

Normally we don't go in for conspiracy theories. We hate them. We despise them. But the speculation that Sgrena collaborated with the 'minutemen' of Iraq in demanding that Italy withdraw from that country does not involve layer upon layer of cover-up. It requires a few people, none of them working in an official government capacity.

Remember Benjamin Vanderford or John Adam?

And if you really believed all that the Left says about the US in Iraq, wouldn't it be your duty to fight the occupation? And if it is morally acceptable to kill in that resistance then surely the lesser crime of lying is also acceptable.

Guliana Sgrena, you are a liar and a propagandist. Why should we trust you now?

UPDATE: I oringinally wrote this from my 28k connection at home and have corrected some of it.

This is speculation and I could be wrong. Speculation, though, is the foundation for any hypothesis testing. I hope Italian and US investigators do not simply take this enemy propagandists word for it. In my book, she is every bit a suspect as she is a victim.

Jeff Goldstein adds his two-cents here.

Let me also remind readers that Sgrena's car was shot at night. The DU is now filled with posters claiming Sgrena was shot because "she was brown, like the Iraqis" or that "the US will shoot any brown person".

The soldiers could not have known who was in the car. They had no idea a hostile journalist was in the car (sorry Eason Jordan, your hypothesis doesn't wash) and they could have had no idea there was a 'brown person' in the car (sorry DU and Ward Churchill)

UPDATE: Let me clarify a few points responding to comments.

1) Nobody is accusing the Italian secret-service to have been in on this. No one is saying that a giant conspiracy exists. What we are saying is that Sgrena was amongst friends if her hostage takers were terrorists. That a ransom was paid makes Italy a victim, not a co-conspirator.

2) When the word of a propagandist is pitted against the word of a US soldier, I am inclined to believe that of the soldier.

3) If the speculation that the whole thing was a hoax is wrong, so be it. However, ample evidence exists that Sgrena was really in no danger if it was jihadis responsible for her kidnapping. If however the kidnappers were simple criminals, then all this is wrong.

UPDATE March 07: After taking Sunday to think about this, let me do a couple of "take-backs."

I implied in this and an earlier post that the troops firing on Sgrena's vehicle was somehow part of Sgrena's bigger plan. The accusation that this is wingnuttery are actually right-on. Now that would require some sort of conspiracy between Sgrena and the men who had negotiated for her freedom (at a price-tag of over $1 million from what we are now hearing.

I feel stupid for having implied that such a conspiracy existed.

The most likely explanation is that Sgrena's driver simply did not follow orders to halt.

Now, why did Sgrena's driver not follow these orders?

Two hypothoses come to mind:

a) It was dark and the driver was confused about the identity of the soldiers mistaking them for insurgents

b) The driver believed the anti-American rhetoric of Sgrena and her likes. If the US is as Sgrena describes then why would you stop? Remember, for a large number of people in the world who watch al Jazeera or read left-wing newspaper's US soldiers are terrorists.

If the latter is true than the shooting incident becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Don't stop at an American chekcpoint because they shoot reporters. The reporters get shot because they don't stop at a US checkpoint.

However, for Sgrena to have been complicit in her own kidnapping requires no such grand conspiracy. It takes one reporter cooperating with the mujahadin council. That's it. more...

Posted by: Rusty at 12:28 PM | Comments (265) | Add Comment
Post contains 2290 words, total size 15 kb.

1 Very funny. Can you really believe people in that car saying: there's the checkpoint, let's hurry up so that they shoot at us... Try again.

Posted by: Louis Robert Fowles at March 05, 2005 01:25 PM (lEdku)

2 If this incident, which appears to be the fault of the Italian driver, results in an Italian troop withdrawl -- good. War is no place for cowards who run at the first sign of trouble. Anyone who hinders the work of the U.S. military should be asked to leave.

Posted by: bpb901 at March 05, 2005 01:28 PM (b2Y3g)

3 And yet you, Louis Robert Fowles, evidently have no problem believing US soldiers decided, "hey, it's a car with a released hostage. Let's just, y'know, unload on it! For kicks! Because we just LOVE TO KILL!"

Posted by: Jeff G at March 05, 2005 01:30 PM (jd1P8)

4 Great story. Clever to have the US troops open fire on her car, wound three and kill a senior Italian emissary. Damn fiendish these left wing journalists.

Posted by: Thom at March 05, 2005 01:30 PM (ckj8m)

5 So, why does a conspiracy involving an anti-war Italian journalist faking her own abduction add up so readily for you, but the possibility that the United States invaded Iraq for nothing more than oil and to install a pliant regime (the better to place permanent bases for stronger presence in the region) gets dismissed out of hand as an "America-hating" conspiracy? Both of these are exercises in applying logic and reading between the lines. So, what separates them, really? I'm not arguing that one of these conspiracies is true while the other isn't. And I've got no issue with you presenting evidence of Srgena's possible duplicity. I'm just mystified as to why wing-nuts are so utterly credulous when it comes to their own government, which has, of late, shown little interest in transparency and accountability. What the hell happened to the classic conservative skepticism of government? That used to gospel to you guys. Further, Bush has given anyone paying an ounce of attention ample reason to question what prompts him to take any action. Look at budget numbers, the Medicare bill, Social Security - yes, even WMD and the accompanying hype - the guy stretches the truth like taffy. And yet, for half the country, this is a man who "says what he means." You're kidding, right? Feel free to question Sgrena's actions and words. But, on the way, don't discard the obvious: yes, she's an anti-war journalist; yes, she's hostile to the U.S. - no question. Until there's greater evidence than guilt by sympathy, you're just reaching. I read this morning in the NY Times (also part of the Michael Moore conspiracy, no doubt) that, for all her anti-war material, Sgrena also criticized the limitations of jihadist political philosophy: why not mention that? Right. Doesn't fit the conspiracy - it's all part of her cagey attempt to disguise her true motives. If you accept the obvious interpretation of this event: the jihadis kidnapped Sgrena precisely to impact the vote; the predictability of the reaction, not only from Sgrena but from the Italian left generally; the reactions of U.S. troops at seeing a speeding car (even if it was a patrol, I'm guessing they'd treat it the same) - the whole thing adds up to a simple, embarrassing tragedy. Remember Occam's razor.

Posted by: TBF at March 05, 2005 01:31 PM (64/E/)

6 Too bad the us troops didn't shoot her in the head and been done with trouble making people like her.........

Posted by: Adnrew at March 05, 2005 01:32 PM (sK6OP)

7 In Europe the communists are in the Communist Parties of the various countries. We are not that lucky in America. In my opinion, it seems the communists in America hide, making it difficult to expose them for what they are. Fred

Posted by: Fred Kolovrat at March 05, 2005 01:33 PM (+7VNs)

8 Jawa, you say you don't like conspiracy theories, but this entire post is precisely that. Sgrena's release was accomplished by a senior officer of the Italian military intelligence agency SCIRI. He was shot dead by the US patrol - and not at a checkpoint - after the US military had been informed their *convoy* of *three* SCIRI cars was approaching the airport. One of the wounded intelligence officers has confirmed Sgrena's story about the attack on their convoy. If you want to find these things out, you'll have to start reading the Italian media - all of it, including the conservative press that supports the war. The fact that Sgrena was against the war and against the occupation may have helped with her release after a month in captivity, but that does not even come close to suggesting she was complicit in a faked abduction. And you might want to check your facts about who Sgrena was waiting to interview - refugees from Fallujah who had fled the US assault on their city. Again, you might need to look a little further than the English language media if you want to find this out. Try Italian Google News, then use the translation function in Google preferences. Of course, your theory may prove correct and as you say it will be interesting to see what emerges over the next few weeks. But it would be a good idea to start reading what the Italians are saying before leaping to conclusions.

Posted by: cat at March 05, 2005 01:34 PM (pq+mH)

9 you people are just sick

Posted by: terrorist at March 05, 2005 01:38 PM (js0j9)

10 your page with this story came up for an "instant" on google news... then it was gone.... is this part of a conspiracy too?

Posted by: Paul at March 05, 2005 01:38 PM (QxbN2)

11 Hello everyone, just a brief comment. In Italian, the word most commonly used for one person killing another is "asassinato." It simply means that one person was killed by another, it does not hold the same meaning that it does in English... Oh, and speaking from personal experience, Il Manifesto and most other leftist organizations in Italy need absolutely NO help from anybody to disagree with the war/the United States and the rightist government in Italy. I assure you that the style of rhetoric coming from those publications would be the same if Sgrena was never captured. BUT, the idea that this was all staged seems very far-fetched to me. You really think that a left-wing newspaper in Italy would've PLANNED to not only have one of their correspondents kidnapped, but then PLANNED to have them fired upon by American troops in order to wound and kill some of them? I mean come on, that kind of staging seems a little TOO much! I mean, this isn't Private Lynch and the U.S. Government here! This is a communist newspaper in Italy! Italy has had its share of tragedy since the beginning and "ending" of this war, the 4 private security guards who were kidnapped and one killed, the bombing at Nasiriyah, two other journalists were captured a few months ago. The idea that Il Manifesto somehow masterminded this whole thing is pretty ridiculous if you ask me. It seems to me that its NOT very hard to get yourself kidnapped or shot at in Iraq nowadays eh?

Posted by: Scott Stuart at March 05, 2005 01:46 PM (24Am3)

12 Oh sorry one more thing, if you want to talk about "conspiracy theories" I'm not so sure how much the American media got....but you remember those 4 security guards who were kidnapped and not heard from in months? Interestingly enough, they were "found" and "rescued" a mere two days before general state wide elections. Silvio Berlusconi's party, "Forza Italia" was able to claim they had successfully infiltrated etc etc... and with the help of the Americans and the Polish found their boys and in a daring firefight managed to pull them out. Soon afterwards, there were all sorts of insinuations in the Italian press about where were these guys all these months? How come we JUST found them? How we seemed to have PAID the U.S. Government something to aid us with this etc etc etc.... now THATS a conspiracy theory

Posted by: Scott Stuart at March 05, 2005 01:50 PM (24Am3)

13 You do not speak for America, as your comment below states. This kind of thing happens to iraqi's every day, yet that story is never told because amerikkkan journalists don't like non-christian arabs(and non-christian americans). "While the Italian people wish to know why the US fired upon Sgrena, we in the US want to know why it was the Sgrena's car did not stop when ordered to do so? "

Posted by: war in iraq = failure at March 05, 2005 01:58 PM (1eVE8)

14 Sorry, and one more thing. The people of Italy are and have ALWAYS been solidly opposed to the war in Iraq. It is Silvio Berlusconi and "Forza Italia" that have dragged them along for the ride, mainly because Italy owes the United States BILLIONS of dollars for post-WWII reconstruction payments (for being on the wrong side). So there you go, another wonderful example of the "coalition of the willing." Oh, and they are involved also because Berlusconi is a grade-A asshole, so he has quite a bit in common with GW. Berlusconi owns almost EVERYTHING there is to own in Italy. If, as an opposition candidate, you wanted to advertise in newspapers, on the streets, or on television...you would have to PAY Berlusconi to do it because he owns 95% of all advertising companies. The man owns the country, and has decided to go where the money is, him and the rest of "new europe" (i'm talking to you, Lithuania) which is in the U.S. Government's back pocket

Posted by: Scott Stuart at March 05, 2005 02:03 PM (24Am3)

15 American Assholes!!!

Posted by: roy at March 05, 2005 02:05 PM (XbwU9)

16 Great Article - I knew I wasn't smoking rope - I told my wife this very thing. This whole event was orchestrated by the left here in Italy and when it went wrong - who else does RAI 3 and the rest of the commies here in Italy blame? The same people who died sixty years ago giving them the right to do so - the Americans naturally...

Posted by: Chuck Benz at March 05, 2005 02:09 PM (+7Nwj)

17 you guys are morons.

Posted by: A.Scott at March 05, 2005 02:16 PM (VJWzz)

18 The whole thing orchestrated eh? and with the help of Rai 3?!?! For those who don't know, Rai 3 is the "leftist" channel on television...but further...it is one of the ONLY television channels that is not some way owned by Silvio Berlusconi!! ALSO...if you haven't spoken to Italians who fought in World War II...and I have, my grand-father in law did, fighting for BOTH Italian and American forces, he tells me that he and everyone else he knows from that time feel nothing but deep respect and gratitude for what the US did in WWII. He tells me "I can never thank the US enough for that....but I think that America is doing the wrong thing here in Iraq, and that is clear to see from all over the world." I think you are grossly misinformed if you think that Italians are not grateful for America's involvement in WWII. But I think that the America 60 years ago is not the America today...and so should not be judged the same way, no? No one in their right mind could possibly compare the ethical justifications for fighting in World War II with the complete absence of ethical, pragmatic, humanitarian justifications in Iraq

Posted by: Scott Stuart at March 05, 2005 02:18 PM (24Am3)

19 Your post proves the intellectual vacuum that is the American Right. This was one of the most idiotic "explanations" I have ever read.

Posted by: Elrod at March 05, 2005 02:18 PM (t5fT9)

20 oh, and lets not forget in the end of all this....Americans DID kill and wound these Italians. AFTER the checkpoint was notified that the three vehicles were on their way there. IF this was switched around and Italian soldiers fired on Private Jessica Lynch and killed one of her "rescuers", what would America be doing right now!?

Posted by: Scott Stuart at March 05, 2005 02:20 PM (24Am3)

21 Well, well Jawa... Google News listing is giving you quite a lot of traffic. Just popped back to this post to correct my earlier reference to SCIRI agents...uhh...I think that should have been SISMI. A colleague of mine quite often tells me I need to lay off the medication - perhaps she's right. By the way, I mentioned that Sgrena's story has been confirmed by one of the wounded SISMI (not SCIRI) agents. Maybe he is also a communist feminist Arabic-speaking anti-US liberal working for Il Manifesto. But that's not the impression I've usually got from people in the security services. Perhaps they're a bit different in Italy.

Posted by: cat at March 05, 2005 02:23 PM (dxJYZ)

22 I not going into the shooting, except that I don't believe that it was deliberate, as all the Italian leftwing press and politicians are saying. For one thing an attempted assassination by friendly fire doesn't seem to be the smarter possible way to kill someone, expecially if the victim doesn't get killed after "being some minutes under intense fire". (and btw, in italian "assassinato" does mean "deliberately murdered". The generic term for "killed" is "ucciso") As for the kidnapping, there seem to be two types of kidnappers, which I'll call type A and type B. Type A are the usual psychos that kidnap foreigners and murder them unless their requests are accepted, or even just to make a point. The killers of Enzo Baldoni and Fabrizio Quattroccchi (and all the other hostages killed in Iraq) were type A. Type B are somewhat different though. They: - only kidnap leftwing activists that "have been in Iraq since before the war" (ie as valued guests of Saddam Hussein's regime). - don't seem in a great hurry to formulate requests, and couldn't care less when their requests are rejected. - go to great lenghts to interfere with Italian domestic politics, asking for mass demonstrations against the government, timing their messages to coincide with parliament votes and so on. - don't use the usual channels such as Al Jazeera or the islamic web sites to deliver their videos, for some reason they prefer to use western press agencies instead. - never kill their hostages, which in return make a point of mentioning how well they have been treated as soon they get off the plane. Pretty weird for someone that went on tape whimpering and pleading for help. The two aid workers "kidnapped" last year and Giuliana Sgrena are clearly "victims" of type B kidnappers. Or else they enjoy a extraordinary and selective luck.

Posted by: Armando B. at March 05, 2005 02:28 PM (EfJ7H)

23 Did you also notice the mole on her face looks JUST LIKE Karl Marx!!!!!!

Posted by: ravingliberal at March 05, 2005 02:29 PM (SMUjt)

24 After witnessing the elections in Iraq and documentation of how many of the countries opposed to the invasion were in fact bilking the Iraqi people of billions of dollars, the international left simply has no credibility.

Posted by: ATM at March 05, 2005 02:36 PM (quHw1)

25 Yeah sorry, what I really wanted to say about "assassinato" is that, yes it means deliberately killed....but it doesn't mean "assassinated" in the sense that we think of it (i.e. J.F.K.). Obviously if a marine opens far at a moving vehicle, he is trying to "deliberately kill" someone. I guess this is all symantics and not all that important

Posted by: Scott Stuart at March 05, 2005 02:37 PM (24Am3)

26 I fail to see the connection between the "International Left" and Iraq being bilked for millions of dollars and isn't "International Left" a pretty broad spectrum? It seems to me that the definition of the "Right" is that THEY are the ones so famously good at bilking?

Posted by: Scott Stuart at March 05, 2005 02:40 PM (24Am3)

27 Unfortunately what the Italian leftwing press and televisions (plural) keep saying is that the US troops deliberately opened fire on the cars, because they were under orders to kill Luciana Sgrena. Not that they bother to explain why the US would do such a thing or how comes they didn't succeed - for their audience "the Americans are evil" is a sufficient and exaustive explanation of pretty much everything

Posted by: Armando B. at March 05, 2005 02:48 PM (EfJ7H)

28 I known Giuliana. She is a good and loyal italian woman who has been always searching to be a good journalist. I'm happy she has not be killed by those stupid terrorists and stupid american soldiers. Maria Coza

Posted by: maborg at March 05, 2005 02:49 PM (uFPpT)

29 The timing was excellent since there has been a shift in opinion of keeping troops stationed in Iraq have become more positive. With an italian agent being killed by US troops, this would help in swinging that opinion back in the other direction. Nothing complex or conspiracle about this. Just a good strategy for the left who want to see Iraq re-repressed, as there is nothing worth fighting or dying for.

Posted by: quark2 at March 05, 2005 02:51 PM (U98ZF)

30 Maborg Does she do toilets too?

Posted by: quark2 at March 05, 2005 02:55 PM (U98ZF)

31 I agree: Why didn't the idiot driving the car stop at the checkpoint? He's the one at fault, not the soldiers at the checkpoint. As far as they knew, the driver was one of Zarqawi's suicide bombers.

Posted by: Clyde at March 05, 2005 02:56 PM (jn16O)

32 If this text would be made available to a wide public in Italy, no doubt the coalition will loose another ally. One another exemple of US stupidity : insult your own ally instead of assuming your own blunder. Go on like this and you soon be left alone in Irak. Please use the brain you were born with. It's highly improbable that the Us army didn't know about the release of the journalist since the Italian, unlike the french, are members of the coalition. The car was shot at at 7OOm from the airport. To be that close, they already had to pass numerous check ups. So the army must have known their passage. The members of Italy's elite secret service securing the release were very experienced people. Not the kind of fools who would speed up if they are warned by " flashing lights and shots in the air". What about if they were not warned but just shot at by trigger happy conscripts ? or scared young boys far away from home ? The content of this article is just filthy. Some americans can go really low, remember Abu Ghraib.

Posted by: Michel Meyer at March 05, 2005 03:06 PM (xTwDq)

33 If the car was running at a check point or passed warnings what exactly are the soldiers supposed to do? Come on! These guys have died in less provocative situations. The driver should have stopped. And with all of his credentials it is hard to believe that he did not know that. Say anything else you choose, but that is a fact that can not be in dispute.

Posted by: rman at March 05, 2005 03:17 PM (g3874)

34 Its incredible, the way you think about communism in europe. Europe is highly against USA because of the war interest. the left and right swing is completly the same in this matter, because everyone should be against the killing. Look at Congo, why the fuck don't you guys help in a much desperate situation than Iraque. Because of the oil and bush fetiches. You can't be joking with serious human rights violations that in a society such evolved as yours should be intrinsic to every individual. Stop messing the world up with this involuntary war and start thinking evolving towards a glorification of the human being. The pulp of your nation has origins wide spread, so think in being part of the world insted of the world being part of you. From Portugal. With respect for Man.

Posted by: Tiago at March 05, 2005 03:17 PM (S9ApA)

35 Michel Meyer People or nations who live in glass houses should not throw boulders. Might do you some good to look down at your feet, see all that glass you're standing in? So much for so-called alliances, that run at the first sign of an error or problem. But then again nothing is really worth fighting for is it.

Posted by: quark2 at March 05, 2005 03:20 PM (U98ZF)

36 The driver may have been partially responsible, but if the hoax was staged by Sgrena, she is the one ultimately to blame for any death and injury that resulted from her little melodrama. I sincerely hope she is exposed and prosecuted.

Posted by: gail at March 05, 2005 03:21 PM (47cun)

37 I hope you people that like to shoot your mouths off about the soldiers doing the wrong thing will be very loud about this shooting for the next few days. That way you will be exposed when the facts are in. I am not saying that our guys can not make mistakes, but you start foaming at the mouth with littlr or no evidence to support your positions and I am glad to see you continually exposed for the lame thinkers, or non-thinkers, you are. Keep chattering!

Posted by: rman at March 05, 2005 03:23 PM (g3874)

38 Tiago You need to speak to the French about the Congo. That is still their territory. Unless as an antiwar afficiando you think the United States should declare war on France in order to do something to help the Congo. But then again, there really is nothing worth fighting for is there.

Posted by: quark2 at March 05, 2005 03:34 PM (U98ZF)

39 To suggest these people were suicidal by knowingly driving themselves into a violently dangerous situation borders on fantasical thinking, and at the very least crosses right into simple patriotical denial. US Soldiers should have been forwarned by US intelligence that this vehicle was coming their way. Were they? Well then the US soldiers fired on a known journalist. Were the US Soldiers NOT warned? Well then, US intelligence set the journalist up to be slaughtered by nervous, trigger happy US Soldiers. Either way you slice it, this Italian Journalist was set up to be murdered. Lucky for her, the Italian intelligence officer protected her from the hail of gunfire, so she lived. The officer died a hero by sacrificing his own life to protect a fellow human being. The family of that Italian officer should be proud of his bravery and service to his country. The US? Hang our heads in shame. We fucked up once again. Especially when we promote a smear campaign against the very people we murdered. Shameful. To sit here and listen to you people justify the shooting because she is a "communist" exposes your warped perceptions. Italy has 3,085 troops in Iraq. Snap back to reality.

Posted by: Sally at March 05, 2005 03:39 PM (4oTpc)

40 Is Giuliana Sgrena a close friend of Eason Jordan?

Posted by: mompjb at March 05, 2005 03:41 PM (jNmJ7)

41 Sally "Either way you slice it, this Italian Journalist was set up to be murdered" And you have the verifiable documented proof to prove this statement? But then again nothing is really worth fighting for then is it.

Posted by: quark2 at March 05, 2005 03:46 PM (U98ZF)

42 Regarding Michael Meyers contention that the car would have previously gone through several checkpoints and therefore the US should have known they were coming: But from Sgrena's own report: ``It wasn't a checkpoint, but a patrol that started shooting after pointing some lights in our direction,'' the Ansa news agency cited Sgrena as telling the prosecutors. ``We hadn't previously encountered any checkpoint and we didn't understand where the shots came from.'' IF you are going to argue her side of the story, you can't dismiss her claim that she had not been through a checkpoint. But if you are willing to believe that she IS lying, then maybe they did go through checkpoints; but if that is the case then we can't believe her when she says this WASN'T a checkpoint, or anything else her group says (her "rescuer" is unlikely to tell a different story than that told be the "hero" hostage). And if they did go through several checkpoints,they should have know the protocol for approaching and stopping at a checkpoint. Since I wasn't there, I will refrain from making my own conclusions about the event; the facts will sort themselves out in a few days. I'm merely saying that arguments must at least be internally consistant, which this one wasn't. Charles

Posted by: Charles Wayne CT at March 05, 2005 03:46 PM (FVv2u)

43 Sally, No one thinks Communists should be murdered.That is willful misinterpretation. The woman works for a Communist newspaper that has engaged in an anti-American propaganda campaign, which has included vicious misrepresentations of American intentions and actions. It seems a lot more reasonable to think that her actions in the past few weeks have been a continuation of her propaganda efforts than to assume that the United States government, intelligence services, and military were all involved in a plot to kill her--and didn't succeed.

Posted by: gail at March 05, 2005 03:48 PM (47cun)

44 This is one of the funniest posts I've ever read. Thank you, you loon!

Posted by: Stan at March 05, 2005 03:49 PM (KF1fi)

45 The international left pretends that all was well in Iraq prior to the invasion, and that the countries who opposed the invasion are fonts of virtue in comparison to the US. Yet we know that many of countries helped Saddam remain in power against the will of the people and profitted from it extremely. As for whether the left does bilking, you have to look no further than Cuba and NoKo for left wing governments that rob the resources of their own countries to enhance the power and comfort of the rulers. Castro is one of the wealthiest men in the world, yet Cuba is dirt poor.

Posted by: ATM at March 05, 2005 03:50 PM (quHw1)

46 Sorry I just had to comment on Quark's constant "there is nothing worth fighting for" mantra. Listen quark, the idea that the war in Iraq is some grand humanitarian, liberating effort on our part is simple bull. I mean anyone who is either FOR or AGAINST the war can see logically that we are there for our own interests....and you can debate the merit of that. But the rhetoric that we are fighting for democracy is just that....rhetoric. If America was really interesting in liberating countries and bringing liberty and democracy to them, we'd be invading every third country on the planet...hell....we'd have to blow up large parts of South America. So cut it with the propaganda buddy....the Iraq warm is not "fighting the good fight" for the good of humanity. All I ask is this...WHY aren't we currently liberating people in X, Y or Z.

Posted by: Scott Stuart at March 05, 2005 03:52 PM (24Am3)

47 I absolutely don't believe that countries that opposed the invasion of iraq are fonts of virtue...for example...I think its going to come out that France had a lot of dirty money in Iraq...a lot of things they didn't want coming out and shame on them. The argument that people thought Iraq was perfect before we went in is ridiculous...no one thought that. But there is a difference between thinking that all is not well in a country, and invading it for your own purposes. And there is no denying this....come on people, we are there for our own gain.(unfortunately we haven't gained much from it it seems) Anyone can see that since the invasion of iraq...women have it even worse than they did in Saddam Hussein's time....the acts of violence and repression against women have skyrocketed as religious hardliners are aggressively pressuring women to don headscarves etc etc.... the point being this, no one is going to argue with you saying that Saddam Hussein was a great guy and his country was in great shape, neither would I argue that Cuba is in great shape....BUT....the literacy rate in Cuba is great....and during Hussein's time....women were treated better than most ANY other Middle Eastern country.... BESIDES. All of the original rationale for going to war has proven to be FALSE. Would anyone like to argue with me on that? I welcome it.

Posted by: Scott Stuart at March 05, 2005 03:58 PM (24Am3)

48 And a comment to ATM....how do you explain the fact that our budget is in such S*itty shape right now and the deficit is higher than it has ever been? At the same time we are pumping billions into the military, the administration wants to cut benefits to veterans, slash the budgets for our school system...increase the retirement age and reduce our social security benefits? WHILE at the same time giving a tax cut to the top 1%? Are YOU up there at that 1%? now THATS some bilkage.

Posted by: Scott Stuart at March 05, 2005 04:05 PM (24Am3)

49 One at a time Scott, one at a time.

Posted by: Gringo at March 05, 2005 04:12 PM (/nsOy)

50 The single reason you know this journalist wasn't targeted for assasination by US troops? - She's still alive. If they knew who was in the car, and were ordered to kill her- then why didn't they? Who was there to stop the troops? Why not just kill them all, and then make up any story you want? This need to believe anything horrific about the motives of the tropps, no matter how contrived, is really astounding to behold.

Posted by: Nukevet at March 05, 2005 04:12 PM (Wm4GU)

51 Calm down Scott, the deficit today is relatively small by historical standards. And everybody that pays income taxes got a cut in rates.

Posted by: Gringo at March 05, 2005 04:14 PM (/nsOy)

52 Scott Stuart Since I am posting from the United States, I do have freedom of speech, just as you. One mans truth can be anothers propaganda. Still doesn't give you the right to tell someone else to stop speaking. And when you applied the word BUT to your last statement, you canceled everything posted before. By the way Hitler made sure the trains ran on time too. But then again to some, nothing is worth fighting for. Not even you.

Posted by: quark2 at March 05, 2005 04:15 PM (U98ZF)

53 Tiago - I agree that we should do something about the Congo, especially about the UN's European and Arab "peacekeepers" who are raping children and using them for pornography there. The Europeans sure can't be trusted to do anything at all, just as they did nothing about Rwanda or Bosnia or Saddam Hussein. Doing nothing about Saddam made sense, though, since the EUnuchs were reaping huge profits by participating in Saddam's circumvention of the Oil for Food fiasco (which led to the deliberate starvation and deaths of Iraqi children when Saddam withheld food and medicine). You hypocritical, cowardly Europeans make me want to vomit. The US is cleaning up your mess for you once again, while you sit back, save your Euros and criticize. But the huge (and exploding) populations of unassimilatable Muslims in Europe is something the US isn't going to be able to fix for you - Europe is finished as a civilization, a corpse that doesn't know it's dead yet. Kiss it goodbye and say hello to Eurabia. Bronxite

Posted by: Bronxite at March 05, 2005 04:15 PM (5KmWh)

54 Yeah, sorry Gringo. I don't participate in a lot of these kinds of things so its all coming out in something of a torrent! By the way, I think that both conspiracies that Sgrena planned her kidnapping AND that the US wanted her killed are ridiculous. I don't think there are many of us "lefties" who think that. In terms of if the Italians think that....I think that they are justifiably outraged right now...and want to know what the HELL just happened. As I know I would too

Posted by: Scott Stuart at March 05, 2005 04:17 PM (24Am3)

55 Scott Yes, this conspiracy theory, like many, is interesting, but it stretches the imagination. As was posted earlier, what REALLY happened is likely exactly what appears to have happened. The reporter got kidnapped, and then was a victim of a friendly-fire (after a fashion) incident. So far 2 of my friends have died in Iraq, both to friendly fire (one before the invasion).

Posted by: Gringo at March 05, 2005 04:19 PM (/nsOy)

56 scott thats easy, because those other third world countries werent funding, hosting, and training terrorists at sanctioned training facilities. they arent apart of a larger problem of which is the festering middle east and its culmination on 911. your critical thinking skills go lacking.

Posted by: rumcrook at March 05, 2005 04:25 PM (Q9W6F)

57 shit happens

Posted by: See you at March 05, 2005 04:25 PM (uFPpT)

58 To Charles Wayne I've read the Ansa report and did'n't see the phrase "We hadn't previously encountered any checkpoint ". She did say that 'it was not a check point but a patrol" who fired. Her boy friend Pier Scolari also says some interesting things about the fact that the US army was warned in advance and talks about an "embuscade". You can try to find every excuse (as absurd as they maybe) for the mistakes of your troops but not insult italians - or other europeans - because they have a different opinion. To start such a smear campaign just hours after one person has been killed is just sickening. To Quark2 Ignorance, stupidity and arrogance are worth fighting against.

Posted by: Michel Meyer at March 05, 2005 04:27 PM (xTwDq)

59 wait let me get this straight rumcrook.....other third world countries aren't training, funding and hosting terrorists? Only Iraq? Oh thats right....we have evidence that Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein were in cahoots (Bin-Ladin issued a message to Iraqi muslims to rise up and overthrow Hussein and install a theocratic government) so YES...the original rationale to going to war have been proven false. NO WMD'S NO SUBSTANTIVE CONNECTIONS TO AL-QAEDA ABSOLUTELY NO THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES don't forget rumcrook, all the 9/11 guys were from Saudi Arabia, right?

Posted by: Scott Stuart at March 05, 2005 04:32 PM (24Am3)

60 Michel Meyer "Ignorance, stupidity and arrogance are worth fighting against." That is an oxymoron. Just what weapons would be used in fighting against ignorance, stupidity and arrogance? Why isn't terrorism, honour killings, clitiorectomies, mass starvations, amputations and child rapes not worth fighting against?

Posted by: quark2 at March 05, 2005 04:33 PM (U98ZF)

61 Cool. All the DU talking points put together nice and neat for laughing at.

Posted by: William Teach at March 05, 2005 04:36 PM (cuTsc)

62 Quark....maybe they are worth fighting for....but then why don't we have an american troop in almost EVERY country in the world? This war is not about us being the good guys, believing that is a LACK of critical thinking

Posted by: Scott Stuart at March 05, 2005 04:36 PM (24Am3)

63 What gets me is how, in nearly all of the accounts I am reading about this incident, it is being called "a tragedy", "an accident" , "a mistake" a tragedy? Yes.. absolutely., no contest there. But an accident? Nope.... Those soldiers fired their weapons on purpose, in accordance with thier training and their orders. A mistake? Sorry... The soldiers hit what they were shooting at- a vehicle that refused orders to stop, again, in accordance with thier orders and their training. In another blog, I came across criticism of the soldiers for thier "failure to properly identify the vehicle" with out any explaination (of course) of HOW they were supposed to identify it as containing non-hostiles, as if it is a given that insurgent cannot wield a paintbrush as they please. No, I think the soldiers did a fine job of identifing the vehicle- as one that would not freaking stop when ordered and very possibly about to blow them into damnation. Put yourself in the position of those soldiers. you have witnessed corades killed and maimed by car bombs and roadside charges. Consider... A vehicle is approaching.... it is signaled to stop.... it does not stop... your gut tightens under your kevlar armor.. another attempt is made to stop to stop the vehicle... discipline holds, even thought the oncoming vehicle, which for all you know contains a couple of hundred pounds of high explosives with your name on it.... does not stop.. warning shots are fired.... with no result! What are you going to do? And from the point of view of the occupants of the oncoming vehicle... you are driving down a road.. up ahead you see American soldiers waving at you to stop and flashing lights at you to the same object. They are pointing automatic weapons at you. Then, warning shots are fired. Do you stop or not? Those boys have orders to stop any vehicle that comes their way, in full awarenness that thier lives may easily depend on their doing so, Bottom Line: If they tell you to stop, you will stop. Dead or alive, you WILL stop. Any Questions? If it is of any help, try looking at this as an intelligence test.. and it's strictly PASS/FAIL, M'kay?

Posted by: Lucius Severus Pertinax at March 05, 2005 04:38 PM (r95xu)

64 The lesson here is that under ANY circumstances, frightening a man that is pointing an automatic weapon at you is A REAL BAD IDEA, okay?

Posted by: Lucius Severus Pertinax at March 05, 2005 04:41 PM (r95xu)

65 Four of the 9.11 terrorists were orginally from Egypt. To whom we give billions of dollars in aid every year.

Posted by: quark2 at March 05, 2005 04:44 PM (U98ZF)

66 the last thing I want to say today is this: I am struck most by how divided all of us are....how we ALL are CERTAIN we are right. Also, I know that most of you guys who are on the pro-war side HONESTLY believe that we are doing good in this world, that we are Superman over there helping out the poor victims of whatever...and that is somethign I respect you all for and appreciate, but I think that time will tell, and in 50 years the history books will chalk all of this up as what it really is. And we on the left do NOT wish for the downfall of our country and think everything we do is evil....quite the opposite, we feel that America IS a great country with GREAT potential....but we squander it. We are selfish, we grandstand, we MAKE ourselves the good guys when we really aren't. I mean, is it surprising that almost everyone else in the world views America as a bullying figure? We are proud to be americans....but that pride should not get in the way of our good judgement and critical analysis.

Posted by: Scott Stuart at March 05, 2005 04:45 PM (24Am3)

67 Scott, If the US wanted this chick dead she would be dead. Why was she not killed by her captors? I don't think that is an unreasonable question. Esp considering that she was sympathetic to the "insurgents" And yes lots of "lefties" hate the US military. They are over a DU having a party right now.

Posted by: susanita at March 05, 2005 04:52 PM (DGrPq)

68 And Scott, The history books will tell you are right. You can't say either. And I hope that if you turn out to be wrong (which it looks increasingly like Bush started a good the in the ME) than I hope that you can admit it. But you won't. Just like with Reagan. He was critized until it was clear he was right and now everyone loves him and claims to have been on his side all along.

Posted by: susanita at March 05, 2005 04:55 PM (DGrPq)

69 To quark2 I don"t really see the link with the Sgrena story but the Congo was not a french colony but a belgium one. It is a good thing to liberate all oppressed nations throughout the world. What about Liberia or Sierra Leone, two countries that have close historical ties with the US and are both plagged by civil war ? Not worth fighting for ?

Posted by: Michel Meyer at March 05, 2005 04:57 PM (xTwDq)

70 Scott. Your claims that women are worse off in Iraq now,shows that your very selective Left Wing memory suffers from critical lapses. Seems you have forgotten about the rape rooms, the govt. paid rapeist, the mass graves & the fun games that those sweet little Saddam Jr's liked to play. You guys all seem to have a firewall that will only allow things in to your mind that strictly conform to your alternate reality.

Posted by: Yankee Diver at March 05, 2005 05:08 PM (6krEN)

71 Since America is the 'great' bully of the world, maybe we should stop sending hundreds of millions of dollars of the taxpayers monies to them. Maybe we should stop going into other countries, teaching them our advanced engineering and technoloies. Maybe we should slam shut our borders, turn our back s on the world. Mind our business. Then the left can line all of 'the masses'in long lines and do our thinking for us as big brother. The great nanny state of from the cradle to the grave. Emulate the systems of such great left leaning systems as North Korea and the also ran USSR. Oh yes, we are not the great guys. We the great white walking dead preying on the world. We should fall to our knees and offer our necks in appeasement and shame to those who are so much greater and better than us........those of the 12th century third world. pshaw!

Posted by: quark2 at March 05, 2005 05:10 PM (U98ZF)

72 no south american countries presently purposely host and train terrorists working to kill americans in mass. so you can put words in my mouth all day long stuart little, but we did what we needed to do to both afghanistan and iraq. and you show your true colors, deny you hate america in one breath then call us the bad guys in the next.

Posted by: rumcrook at March 05, 2005 05:12 PM (Q9W6F)

73 Michel Meyer You are correct, it is a Belgium colony. But then again the belgians are about the same as the french. Same attitudes, same type of culture, same type of governance and same language. And maybe it's time that everyone start fighting their own battles. And everyone start minding their own business.

Posted by: quark2 at March 05, 2005 05:19 PM (U98ZF)

74 to quark2 You seem to know as much about the different cultures and countries of the world as your president G.W.Bush. Hey wake up it is not like in hollywodd movies ? Do you know that for instance that in France no one understood the thing about the "french fries" changed into more patriotic "freedom fies". Because here no one would call the "pommes frites" french since we believe the best fries come from Belgium (like the Congo)!

Posted by: Michel Meyer at March 05, 2005 05:39 PM (xTwDq)

75 Maybe she reached her little foot over and slammed it down on the gas pedal as they appraoched the checkpoint. Who knows, we will find out soon enough...although I agree that it does look like she faked her kidnapping. One telling sign of that is she still has her head!

Posted by: TS at March 05, 2005 05:50 PM (B7VX/)

76 How would the soldiers know it was her in the car, and if they were targeting her, why didn't they just finish the job?

Posted by: Dumbo_the_Elephant at March 05, 2005 05:57 PM (fjxg3)

77 I've read repeatedly that she's been wounded and treated. Does anyone knknow what those wounds are? Was she shot?

Posted by: Arrmatey at March 05, 2005 05:58 PM (DZDzu)

78 It is nonsense to suggest that the Italian driver intentionally failed to stop so that the Americans would start shooting. Probably a combination of the convoy going too fast and an overzealous American patrol. We'll find out soon enough. In the meanwhile, don't make up silly conjectures that the Italians wanted to be attacked.

Posted by: Scott at March 05, 2005 05:58 PM (PiM5Z)

79 Its a tragedy. However, Italian intelligence bears the brunt of the blame. Did they tell anyone what they were doing? Did they show the caution that should have been shown in the situation? What was the exsit strategy. Italian intelligence should review their planning and execution. (And yes, it is on the person speeding toward the checkpoint that needed to be more cautious. Shooting the speeding car IS cautious.)

Posted by: slickdpdx at March 05, 2005 05:59 PM (hzSsW)

80 Michael Meyer, Take your condescension somewhere else. Whoever's colony the Congo is it was a poster here who said the US should get involved. And quark2 was trying to respond. I have lived in Europe and have heard plenty of ridiculous & derogatory things that misunderstand Mexico, South America, and the US. So you can have your Belgian pommes frites and I'll eat my freedom fries and we'll both feel superior- when in fact, Europe's average citizen is pretty ill informed about the world outside the continent. Europe is not like in the movies either. Give me a break.

Posted by: susanita at March 05, 2005 06:01 PM (DGrPq)

81 She was "set up" to be "murdered" huh? Then why the FUCK did, after the shooting of course, the American soldiers took her to a US Military hospital! for treatment?!?

Posted by: madne0 at March 05, 2005 06:02 PM (S9ApA)

82 Michel Meyer No fan of bollywood here. And what do you know of Mr.Bushs knowledge? Are you in an intimate situation that you would know this? You are not an american that is obivious. Freedom fries, because french products are being boycotted in the United States. Which is why the french winemakers are whinging and looking for aid from the government.

Posted by: quark2 at March 05, 2005 06:11 PM (U98ZF)

83 We had an incident similar to this in South Central Los Angeles recently when a 14 year old teen drove a car into a police cruiser at 4 AM. He then compounded the problem by backing into the cruiser. The police shot him dead in order to get him to stop the car. Now the police are in trouble because he was a teenager and black. All the usual suspects are up in arms. The commonsense response - what was he doing out there at 4 AM and driving a car underage? Similar here - what were these people doing when told to halt? Trying to race through US troops. What a foolish thing to do with entirely predictable results.

Posted by: LR at March 05, 2005 06:15 PM (mOion)

84 There seems to be no boundaries for those who oppose the U.S. all over the world. Especially within the U.S. itself, the cowards condemn every action made to try to secure freedom for ourselves and others around the globe. It's never the fault of the monsters who blow up innocent people. NO, the monsters are the victims. Bush, of course, is the real monster, because, boo-hoo, they lost the election. Get over it or get out of my country.

Posted by: fm at March 05, 2005 06:46 PM (q8c7P)

85 I have a question? WHo was behind the wheel of the car.........if a Italian secret-service agent was the one who got her free prehaps it is a safe bet that another Italian secret-service agent was behind the wheel and NOT an Italian Communist working for a newspaper as this artical suggests! I fact calling this entire thing a "Hoax" make me want to HOWL!

Posted by: Red Wolf at March 05, 2005 06:49 PM (RqaMW)

86 Oh Yah.............I would also like to say that RELIGIOUS TERRORIST HATE COMMUNISTS! this is because communists view religion as a way to inslave the people and i, for one, am VERY suprised that she want not killed on this fact alone! AROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

Posted by: Red Wolf at March 05, 2005 06:54 PM (RqaMW)

87 Susanita I'm not condescending but outraged by this article and some of the comments. To inform us, ignorant europeans, journalists like Scregna or Aubenas (french hostage) risk their lives unlike the US press who stays in secured hotels. Me too I travel and I can see that nowadays it's pretty negative about the US almost everywhere, South America, Asia, Africa... This Irak war and the WMD hoax has damaged the image of the US very badly. This "incident"' will only make things worse. Especially if some jerks claim that Scregna deserved it. If the US wants to be a good "world leader" it should have more knowledge and be more sensitive about other people's cultures. The pommes frites thing was an answer to someone who stated that france and Belgium share the same political system when actually one is a Kingdom and the other a Republic.

Posted by: Michel Meyer at March 05, 2005 07:02 PM (xTwDq)

88 Good comments......but let us clarify that this is all the American Government's falt(and PREHAPS the media), NOT the American people's.

Posted by: Red Wolf at March 05, 2005 07:12 PM (RqaMW)

89 Michel Meyer Hurt feelings? Because of the comparison of France and Belgium? Who cares about American "image"? You all still love our money. But, have you noticed you're getting less and less of it? Why? Because all those bad imaged yaahoo umerikuns aren't coming over and spending like we've done in the past. The next time...and it's coming...you get your weenie asses in a fix, don't call us for a rescue and to clean up your effing mess. As reminder of it not happening again, take a long walk through one of the WWII cemetaries holding OUR young men and women.

Posted by: q at March 05, 2005 07:16 PM (U98ZF)

90 YAh......becuse America was the ONLY country that lost people...........you stupid MUTT.

Posted by: Red Wolf at March 05, 2005 07:59 PM (BzMP/)

91 To g and quark 2 You don't get it. I'm not anti american. I'm just dismayed by the way your president is "leading" you. After 9:11 most people wanted you to succeed in the war against terror. But then came Irak. The french and the germans advised you to not to go to Irak. You didn't care and made all the possible mistakes : allow widespread looting, dismantle the Iraki army, the prison scandal and so on. Now you are untangled in a mess for years and the world suffers from the consequences. The french do not forget the WW2 soldiers who came to liberate. You should not forget also that France is your only historical ally that never waged war against you. They wanted to avoid their closest ally the kind of disaster the soviets met in Afghanistan or general Custer with Sitting Bull. Instead of listening you insult them. You are lucky that most people in France did not really know the level of vulgarity and intensity of the anti french smear campaign. Then they would really become anti american. There was nothing comparable directed against americans here. If you start loosing your allies you have a problem. This is GWB's major blunder. As far as the boycot is concerned it is inefficient. The major french companies have declared a record benefit from export late year. Do the US only want to be loved for their dollars ?

Posted by: Michel Meyer at March 05, 2005 08:00 PM (xTwDq)

92 All of Europe is going down the toilet........And you know what? America will be there to bail your sorry asses out you ungrateful sons of bitches! GOD BLESS AMERICA! M.W.

Posted by: MIGHTY WHITEY at March 05, 2005 08:05 PM (vzIsh)

93 "If the US wants to be a good "world leader" it should have more knowledge and be more sensitive about other people's cultures." Respect is a two-way street,you moron. Scregna's actions are repugnant, both before and after the alleged kidnapping. She is now accusing good soldiers of "murder". If you can't see why people are pissed off about that, then you're an idiot. I feel sorry for the special agent that was killed, and for the troops who fired on the vehicle because they are being vilified for trying to protect themselves.

Posted by: Trapeze at March 05, 2005 08:32 PM (ds4O8)

94 madneO, Good question. When I said she was "set up", that requires you to think about it. Seriously, think about it... EVERYONE knows that US Soldiers are going to fire on vehicles driving fast towards them. They have to in order to protect themselves. So you must ask yourself this important question: "Why would the Italians be driving fast towards US Military?" That would be suicide, plain and simple. There is no reason they should want to die. It begs the question then, if they were driving fast, what was their reason? Since we don't have proof (none of us do) we must speculate as to why they would do such a crazy thing. What would be the most logical reason the Italians, WITH an Intelligence Officer on board, would be driving fast near US Military? The ONLY reason would be that the Italian Officer HAD ASSURANCES from US Intelligence that they would be safe because US Intel would inform US ground troops along their route of what kind of vehicle the Italians are driving. Now, the set-up. If US Intelligence gave assurances verbally to the Italian Intel Officer there would be NO PAPER TRAIL. Likewise, if the US Intelligence NEVER informed US troops, there would also be NO PAPER TRAIL. Also, US Intelligence could deny ALL KNOWLEDGE (plausible deniability) of having the Italian's vehicle description if the Italian Officer lived. "Why didn't the US troops kill the journalist?" BECAUSE as far as the US troops know, it was an accident. So they aren't going to "finish her off" if they think they mistakenly shot at a vehicle they shouldn't have. Someone else here said "Shit Happens". You think the US Intelligence doesn't know that? They were counting on "Shit" to happen. Likewise, if the Italian Officer had lived, the US Intelligence could just say, "We didn't know what type of vehicle you were driving. We never spoke to you. You must have spoken to somebody impersonating US Intelligence." Your right quake2, I don't have "proof". But this makes a WHOLE LOT MORE SENSE that the parent article does. Of course, it's a horrible hypothesis if you refuse to believe US Intel had motive for it. Did they?

Posted by: Sally at March 05, 2005 08:44 PM (4oTpc)

95 Sally Oh for sure. She was so important, that they went to all of that trouble to make out a plan to shoot up her car. The car was shot at night. I guess you think the soldiers have some way of identifying who is a car in the dark. ESP? She got what she went for and some icing for that cake too. A story. Good on her. I hope she enjoys the fruits of her efforts.

Posted by: quark2 at March 05, 2005 08:50 PM (U98ZF)

96 "You are lucky that most people in France did not really know the level of vulgarity and intensity of the anti french smear campaign. Then they would really become anti american." What a joke. If Americans had any idea of the depth of anti-Americanism in France, they'd hate the French more as well. France stabbed the US in the back, plain and simple. Don't expect US sympathy for playing politics. How is the French and German economy these days? I hear Germany has the highest jobless rate since WWII. I also hear that the French are depressed out of their skulls. Tough shit. You made your bed, now you lie in it. All we ever hear is how me are supposed to apologise for liberating Iraq, while you were playing politics with Iraqs future. You would rather have seen Saddam Hussein continue his murderous reign, than liberate his victims. The French and Germans have a lot of blood on their hands, no doubt about it. You're the one who should apologise.

Posted by: Trapeze at March 05, 2005 08:52 PM (ds4O8)

97 Your right quake2, I don't have "proof". But this makes a WHOLE LOT MORE SENSE that the parent article does. Maybe, if you're on crack.

Posted by: Trapeze at March 05, 2005 08:54 PM (ds4O8)

98 What has me just rolling on the floor are the Yer a peeins sitting here yapping against America on the American invented Internet, which rests upon the infrastructure of the American invented telephone. Go invent something, fucktards.

Posted by: The Incompetent Trollâ„¢ at March 05, 2005 09:01 PM (lK7Sh)

99 Michel Meyer "I'm just dismayed by the way your president is leading" you." Presidents usually do lead. That's their job. "The french and the germans advised you to not to go to Irak. You didn't care and made all the possible mistakes : allow widespread looting, dismantle the Iraki army, the prison scandal and so on. Now you are untangled in a mess for years and the world suffers from the consequences." The french and germans advised us to not invade Iraq, because they had their hand in Saddams cookie jar. The possible mistakes made were the exposure of the still ongoing oil for food scandal. The prison scandal is beans compared to the scandal of France and Germany abetting Saddam in 12 more years of horror, brutality and murder of his own people. Of course due to them, he did enjoy the 52 palaces all of that illgained money afforded him. "The french do not forget the WW2 soldiers who came to liberate. " Which why in the past year there has been scandalist vandalism of them. "You should not forget also that France is your only historical ally that never waged war against you. They wanted to avoid their closest ally the kind of disaster the soviets met in Afghanistan or general Custer with Sitting Bull. Instead of listening you insult them." Excuse me, but the first soldiers of WWII were KIA in Morrocco by french soldiers. Are have you forgotten the french government set up by and controled by the germans? Custer getting his ass fried by Crazy Horse was a victory. Custer was a worm and finally got his just rewards when all heroic awards were stripped from him. Sometimes the truth can be insulting. "You are lucky that most people in France did not really know the level of vulgarity and intensity of the anti french smear campaign. Then they would really become anti american. There was nothing comparable directed against americans here. If you start loosing your allies you have a problem. This is GWB's major blunder." So, since America disagreed with the french politics it was an anti french smear. Loosing allies like the ones who were caught with their hand in the til isn't such a loss. Getting caught with your pants down is never a blunder except for the perp. The excuse you've laid out here are as about as intelligent as the ones I got from my neighbour today about the gate his teenaged son destroyed. "Oh, it was vibrations that made the gate fall apart." Right

Posted by: quark2 at March 05, 2005 09:17 PM (U98ZF)

100 Dr. Shackleford, I would like to raise some questions: 1) Do we know that she was intending to turn herself into the Iraqi government when they ran into the patrol? 2)Do we know if that this Italian agent was sent after or before the Italian government was notified of her release? 3)Do we know anything about the agent's political or religious loyalties and so forth? It would be interesting to find out the agent's background. His ability to give witness has been silenced very conveniently; could someone else have fired the weapon besides the US troops? 4)For that matter, has anyone examined the bullet wounds on his body to establish the direction and distance of the weapon? 5)Do we know the weapon that killed the agent matched weapons fired by American troops? 6.If the weapons match, my next question how any group was traveling in darkness, inside a speeding vehicle, who ignores soldiers’ directions to slow down could expect anything else but weapon fire. Any fool would expect US or Iraqi soldiers to fire at a speeding vehicle that refused to slow down within a region known for suicide car bombing. This situation appears contrived to create a scandal. 6)Observers have noted earlier that the authenticity of hostage video authenticity is questionable. Her performance as a "hostage” was lacking any projection of the white-faced terror shown by previous hostages, and she does appear to give directions at one point. 7)You and other observers point out that there is no positive proof she was actually kidnapped, therefore, a possibility exists that she faked her kidnapping. If so, then how do we know that her nighttime trip WAS NOT MEANT TO BE THE OCCASION of "her return from the kidnappers? She may have been moving with friends to another location but ran into the group of soldiers by accident. Hence, she ran into an unexpected obstacle, and the vehicle’s attempt to escape detection. It would explain their irrational attempt to speed up and avoid close examination by the soldiers. The driver's behavior certainly sounds extremely suspicious if not irrational.

Posted by: Mirramele at March 05, 2005 09:33 PM (KtFTf)

101 Trapeze said: "Maybe if you're on crack." You really dug down deep for that one, didn't you Trapeze? Thanks for not adding any constructive thought to this forum, we all appreciate it.

Posted by: Sally at March 05, 2005 09:36 PM (4oTpc)

102 Sally, Try to see what it is you're actually saying. If this were a plot to murder Sgrena, why isn't she dead? It would have been a simple matter just to kill everybody in the car. Voila, no witnesses. Even if you believe our soldiers would do such a pointless, idiotic thing as assassinate a little nobody reporterette from the Italian version of the Daily Worker, surely you can't believe that they would be gormless enough to fail, not try again, and leave witnesses, which they then took to the hospital so they would be well enough to testify against them. That's just plain irrational.

Posted by: gail at March 05, 2005 09:46 PM (47cun)

103 quark2 "Oh for sure. She was so important, that they went to all of that trouble to make out a plan to shoot up her car." If you consider "telling someone they are safe, and then doing nothing" a complicated plan, then I'd hate to hear what your idea of a simple plan would be. "The car was shot at night. I guess you think the soldiers have some way of identifying who is a car in the dark. ESP?" ESP may not be as effective as NIGHT VISION EQUIPMENT. "She got what she went for and some icing for that cake too. A story. Good on her. I hope she enjoys the fruits of her efforts. Do you work for US Intelligence? Because that is EXACTLY the same attitude that US Intelligence could have that would motivate them to "show her a lesson". quake2, my post asked the reader "to think". Don't say I didn't warn you...

Posted by: Sally at March 05, 2005 09:48 PM (4oTpc)

104 qual, Did you even read my post? Read it again. I never said the US Troops were in on it. They were just doing what they normally do, protecting themselves from random vehicles they thought were dangerous. It's the US Intelligence that NEVER informed the US Troops that they if they see such-and-such a vehicle, NOT to shoot it. It's a simple plan really, and if you don't understand it, then I can't help you. Suspend your patriotic beliefs for just a few minutes and think about this like a murder mystery. LISTEN CAREFULLY: The US Troops didn't "finish her off" because they were never told to. As far as the US Troops knew, they shot at a suspicious vehicle, realized they made a mistake, and sent the Italian Journalist to the hospital. The crime falls on US Intelligence. Read my original post. It's ALL there.

Posted by: Sally at March 05, 2005 09:58 PM (4oTpc)

105 I've never seen so many generalities over what is probably a simple incident. The media's "reporters" don't seem to be able to find out key facts which determine the entire character of the story. Either they failed to drive properly with respect to a checkpoint in wartime Iraq or they didn't. We news consumers can hardly sort it out with the little data we have. Rehashing the old "Bush lied" and "people hate America" arguments doesn't address much of this. The initial stories were obviously very incomplete, but it doesn't seem like guys who get convicted for putting underwear on peoples heads are going to gun down people just for kicks, and then miss on top of that.

Posted by: Frank at March 05, 2005 09:59 PM (DrvrJ)

106 So... What I see in some comments in this page is the classical example on how international news are edulcorated and filtered in some US's minds. I can't believe people could be so BLIND. Try to read real information on the net before saying stupid things. At midnight (Italian local time), I saw a coffin wrapped in a Green-White-Red Italian flag at Roma's airport. I saw a woman, with her daughter and her son. That woman lost her husband. Those girl and boy lost their father. I saw Italian Republic President Ciampi imposing his hands on the coffin for several minutes as to embrace a valorous man. Mr. Nicola Calipari. He was one of the most important SISMI agent. He was the one who was able to free the Italian hostages in 2004 and 2005, until two days ago. When the car in which he was on his last mission was under US fire. And his last action was to protect the woman who was to be protected till her return here in Italy. Ms Sgrena said "He died in my arms". The man who saved her as from Iraq kidnappers as from US soldiers, 2 times in one hour. He was a REAL agent. He surely made ALL the communications needed for the mission. He saved Ms Sgrena after a month of intense work. He couldn't make any mistake, expecially at the end of her prigiony... at 700 m from the airport in a such infamous road. When she was released, she had a bandage on her eyes, but she could listen to helicopter over her head. The helicopter in Iraq belongs to US, isn't they? So US DID know about her release. But... WHY US soldiers didn't know? Someone among you could say "comunist propaganda". But there was no checkpoint. There was no actions to stop the car. Only FIRE on the car. Ms Sgrena and Mr Calipari were on the phone with Palazzo Chigi, the Italian Government Palace, when US soldiers opened fire. Roma knows that Ms Sgrena and her Mr. Calipari were on the way to Baghdad's airport. Phones were closed by soldiers... 20 years old scared soldiers... Ms Sgrena was taken to the hospital. In Italy everyone is horrified. Are we sure that the US soldiers were informed by the ones who should have to inform them in time to avoid this murder? Something is gone too much wrong... where is the fault? Is it Italian fault to be attacked by its own ALLY? By the country who declared itself as FRIEND? By the country whose interests were so big to began a war in which Italian boys lost their lives in Nassiriya? For an US war, depicted as "democracy war" boys are dead, and they continue to die, everyday. Boys of every nation. Can democracy be obtained with blood? Iraq-civil blood, soldier's blood? From Italy I could only report what is the feeling of Italian people. We didn't want this war in Iraq. Italy IS AGAINST the war in Iraq, as in every other country of the world. But the Italian Government wanted it. It seems that it's not so important what people want. Because Italian Premier Berlusconi is US ally. So Italy (and Italian people) HAD to be US ally. In Iraq there is a war, a war for OIL, and journalists as Ms Sgrena and Ms Abenaus made only their job: to tell people the TRUTH. I hope that the French journalist could return soon in her country, too. That kind of person risks life in every moment. Only to tell the Truth. We, in Italy, are waiting for a reply by US: TRUTH. US MUST TELL US TRUTH. US OWES US TRUTH. Not a "political truth" to hide the TRUTH. For Mr. Calipari's family, for Italian people who are still in shock. This isn't communist propaganda... Propaganda is making "brainwashing" to people making them believing world is divided in "good and evil" where good=US and evil=the rest of the world. Evil is blood. World is paying an heavy tribute in human lives: not in money, not in oil. In human BLOOD. And blood has the same colour for every man or woman in the world. Because we are all human beings. And the most foolish thing that human beings could do... is war. But world is full or wars.

Posted by: Koe at March 05, 2005 10:05 PM (KniaQ)

107 Gail, Good points. Why would the CIA want to create a scandal over such an insignificant journalist? That idea doesn't hold weight. Before this situation, she would have returned, made the usual comments and produced articles with the typical viewpoints heard from that political camp; but the impact would have been minimal. The sucessful Iraqi election has taken the wind out of the Anti-American rants. I doubt if the world would noticed her beyond one day. Now, she has a convenient death of an Italian agent and an opportunity to make accusations that US soldiers attempted the deliberate murder of a journalist; already it has given a jump-start to her formally limp story with a spicy, attention grabbing twist. .

Posted by: Mirramele at March 05, 2005 10:06 PM (KtFTf)

108 Sally, Try not to be a complete little snot, please. This is all a question of who you believe to be the liar--the US, whether you are fantasizing about a plot that extends to the military checkpoint or "only" through the intelligence community, or Sgrena. If Sgrena had a reputation for fairness and honesty I would be less suspicious of her. She is however a paid propagandist for an anti American newspaper who came to Iraq to assist the very people who are supposed to have kidnapped her. I have no way of knowing how events actually unfolded. Nor do you. I only know that I do not trust that woman. In the law courts, jurors are justified in suspecting the testimony of a witness with an agenda. False in one, potentially false in all. And do try to calm down. You're making a public spectacle of yourself.

Posted by: gail at March 05, 2005 10:08 PM (47cun)

109 trapeze Me on crack? No. But there is a possiblity you're sitting on one! ;?)

Posted by: quark2 at March 05, 2005 10:16 PM (U98ZF)

110 I'm reading arguments are entirely based on assumptions: 1. the assumption that the US government was informed in advance 2 the assumption that the US government did not inform its military personnel that she was being returned 3. the assumption that the driver was a idiot. Even if the driver had been informed that the government knew she was returning, why would the driver assume that his vehicle could be correctly identified by armed troops, while the vehicle sped towards them in the dark? 4. The assumption that the driver would believe it was safe to ignore a shouted military command to slow down, and then make the choice to speed past armed soldiers, in the dark, in a region known for car bombing?

Posted by: Mirramele at March 05, 2005 10:22 PM (KtFTf)

111 We are the strongest military force in the history of the planet. If we wanted Sgrena dead, she would be. Simple as that. There was a checkpoint. The Italian Secret Service failed to co-ordinate their movements with American forces as is standard operating proceedure in combat zone. The American forces gave every possible warning, and as I said in my coverage of the event, they should have fired far more rounds into teh vehicle under the circumstances. It is only though some of the greatest fire disciple and professionalism of our soldiers that any of these people lived. If you must place blame on this tragic turn of events, first place the blame with the ISS for not coordinating their movements with coalition forces on the ground. Then place blame on the driver for not heeding obvious warnings. And thank God above that these were American soldiers with American training at this checkpoint, for if there was any other army in the world manning this position, there would be three more families of Italian Secret Service agents in mourning, as well as the husband of a dead communist journalist. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Koe.

Posted by: Confederate Yankee at March 05, 2005 10:24 PM (e02to)

112 Very nicely done, Confederate Yankee. Mirramele too. But don't you sometimes feel you're wasting your time putting together rational arguments that are only going to be met with bullheaded prejudice? I for one am calling it a night.

Posted by: gail at March 05, 2005 10:32 PM (47cun)

113 It's the normal reaction. US can't make errors, US are perfect. I'm not anti-US. I'm against stupidity and talking aloud without knowing the facts. So I'm against who believe to possess the power to shut up someone else. Here it's 5.30 a.m. and it's a waste of time to be without sleeping to read comments as yours. Maybe you didn't understand that we want TRUTH. We are not the kind of people who accuse BEFORE knowing as others do.

Posted by: Koe at March 05, 2005 10:33 PM (KniaQ)

114 qail, Just to set the record straight, I am calm, qail. Also, thank you for stating the obvious, that I'm making a public spectacle of myself. I should expect nothing less when actively engaging in discussion on a "public" forum. I certainly hope you weren't attempting to make some sort of veiled threat with that last sentence, either. Because, if you need to be reminded, this is a public forum of which many eyes read. Threatening someone would be an unwise thing to do. But, surely, you aren't doing that. Since you have plainly stated that you "don't trust Sgrena", it is clear why you haven't even attempted to understand my original post. For me, this isn't a matter of trust. This is about analyzing motives. I understand that Sgrena has Anti-American bias in general. However, she was not alone in that car. She was with the Italian Intelligence Officer, Calipari. He wasn't stupid. He wanted to live. And that motive, wanting to live, shared by both Sgrena and Calipari, strongly outweighs any motive they might have for plotting a scandal against the US. US Intelligence, on the other hand, has a strong motive to create an easily untraceable "unfortunate event" that makes it appear that the "Anti-American" journalist was a victim of the Fog of War. Does it require me to not trust US Intelligence to believe they have this motive? No. Others might argue that US Intel would never do something like this because the scandal would be to outrageous. Well, look at what US Intel is saying right now: "It was obviously an accident. Our deepist sympathies go out to Calipari's family for this unfortunate occurance. We had no knowledge they would be in the area." Time to eat pizza....

Posted by: Sally at March 05, 2005 10:33 PM (4oTpc)

115 I very much doubt that any of the folks posting on this subject have ever been in the military on a night patrol in a hostile environment. I can tell you without a doubt that the 20 year olds on the patrol did exactly as they have been trained to do. If they had wanted to kill the occupants of the car, they would be dead. The bits that I have overheard indicated that the Italian agent died from injuries from the crash and that the reporter had crash and “shrapnel” wounds. Does the average US patrol know or care about some Italian reporter? There are lots of people being kidnapped and killed. I think it quite unreasonable and arrogant to believe that normal foot patrols and checkpoints would be on high alert for this one reporter. And NO, you can’t identify people in a car going 100kph at night with night vision goggles.

Posted by: RicardoVerde at March 05, 2005 10:44 PM (3DOby)

116 Salleeeeeeee Seems you're throwing rocks through your glass house walls. You apparently cannot read. Patriotism has nothing to do with good reading skills...........dear. QUARK2

Posted by: quark2 at March 05, 2005 10:49 PM (U98ZF)

117 Sally, I wasn't making a veiled threat. Try not to be paranoid. You were horrid and snotty to me so I was returning the favor. Enjoy your pizza and grow up.

Posted by: gail at March 05, 2005 10:50 PM (47cun)

118 Again, the CIA conspiracy posts are examples of a circular argument. Her conclusions are not based on facts, but assumptions and speculations.

Posted by: Mirramele at March 05, 2005 10:51 PM (KtFTf)

119 The car reached max. 50 km/h. It's Ms Sgrena and the other wounded agent's evidence. Mr Calipari died because he was injuried at head by a bullet and not for the crash, while Ms Sgrena was injuried at left shoulder by (seems) a splinder.

Posted by: Koe at March 05, 2005 10:52 PM (KniaQ)

120 Just to clarify, since Sally seemed to be having some reading comprehension problems, "making a public spectacle" is a euphemism for being a jackass.

Posted by: gail at March 05, 2005 10:56 PM (47cun)

121 sally Time to eat pizza....maybe you should change your menu to humble pie.

Posted by: quark2 at March 05, 2005 10:57 PM (U98ZF)

122 Don't they know there is a war on? They do now.

Posted by: Walter E. Wallis at March 05, 2005 10:59 PM (7XPVo)

123 Seemingly mIssing from all this discussion is an awareness of the fact that (almost) all "news" being reported about this incident is coming from the Il Manifesto people. There's an awful lot of yelling when we've really only heard one side of the story from a source that clearly has an anti-Iraq-war. anti-American agenda. TBF says" "Remember Occam's razor" ...well I'm not sure that some sort of collusion with the kidnappers or an attempt to force a confrontation would be excluded at this point. ...Or it could be she's just plain stupid... which would explain more than just this incident.

Posted by: Chuck at March 05, 2005 11:04 PM (0syAf)

124 I'm tired of Euro-woosies claiming there was no justification for the war. Bush even stated, although for political reasons could not make it the main arguement for attacking Irag, that a democracy in the Middle East would be a shining example for the rest of the region. And I guess you lefto/commies would have us believe that the events of the last 2-3wks are a HUGE coincidence? Whatever helps you sleps sleep at night. Oh, and by the way, as far as Bush & Co. lying about the WMD's - it was a view held by EVERY major intelligence agency in the world (I'm including France in there even though the words France & intelligence don't mesh well). So shut your pissing and moaning mouths, admit that Bush was right and go about your business. Damn if you losers expended as much energy doing something productive instead of bitching about the mythical big-bad America you might have unemployment in single digits some time. You don't necessarily have to agree with everything we do, but at least you should have the common courtesy of humping dolphins or saving trees and leave the adults to the chores of changing a repulsive (and profitable to EU) Middle East into something that resembles civilization. And one more thing - this is one American who doesn't give two shits about a communist's story stacked up against an American soldiers. Anyone who stands up and proclaims themselves an adherent to an ideology that killed MANY more people in the 20th century then Nazis doesn't deserve any respect. My only regret is that your intelligence officer was killed and not that b**ch that deserved it.

Posted by: F-Her at March 05, 2005 11:05 PM (PG+qd)

125 Gail, I couldn't understand how she thought you posted a threat either. A very odd reaction. Perhaps English is not Sally's native language. She may have misunderstood when reading "making a public spectacle of yourself" (ie. you're making yourself look foolish), and instead, interpreted the remark to mean that she would have a "public execution". Who knows?

Posted by: Mirramele at March 05, 2005 11:07 PM (KtFTf)

126 quark2, qail It's lovely to watch two people that can't (or won't) wrap their minds around a simple concept regress to juvenile "one liners". If that's the best the readers that this forum can offer up, then I've mistakenly stumbled across a "beginners" play ground in blogger commentary. So I must move be moving on, and I'll be sure to direct any kids practicing their "kung-fu" skills down your direction. Cheers!

Posted by: Sally at March 05, 2005 11:10 PM (4oTpc)

127 Chuck, People commented that currently, the sole news source was this Italian Communist news publication. However, one genius thought that the information posted was referring to Marx's original "THE Communist Manifesto" and so posted that "we were all morons". I almost choked while reading his post.

Posted by: Mirramele at March 05, 2005 11:15 PM (KtFTf)

128 Sally the whodunit mystery conspirator is running off, send her back to the kiddies table.

Posted by: quark2 at March 05, 2005 11:16 PM (U98ZF)

129 KOE - To answer your ridiculous question re: Can democracy be achieved with blood? Uhhhhh....yes, why don't you look up a few small countries by the name of Japan and Germany. And yes, you are right this is a war was about OIL. Only it's the "righteous" countries opposed to the war that we're reaping cash from the Food for Oil scandal. Probably don't read much about that in your EU papers I'll bet. Probably don't read much about the child-rapist UN peacekeepers in the Congo, Haiti, etc either. And American are the dumb ones......Okay.....

Posted by: Richard James at March 05, 2005 11:23 PM (PG+qd)

130 F-Her, I find very curious as US people doesn't know the history of Europe, 'cause if you're referring to an ideology (60 years ago ideology) related to Italy, it would be called Fascism. Germany, Italy and Japan were ally. But not all the people who lived (or live) in those countries would be "nazist/fascism/jap". And I'm talking about a thing of two days ago (1 day for US for time zone) and not 60 years ago. I find also strange how it's so strange for many people to understand that diplomacy exists also to avoid wars. But making war is better because also army-producer had to eat... War is better, is easier, and requires only a tribute in blood and money. Diplomacy requires too much sophisticated way of thinking. Try to thing only for one minute: US has the right to impose its policy/civilization on other countries? You consider civilization to shoot agaist everyone, children, women, men? I think that civilization is RESPECT for ourself and others, and also accepting differences. NOT impose one ego on another one.

Posted by: Koe at March 05, 2005 11:24 PM (KniaQ)

131 Richard James, sorry to contradict you. I don't believe you could understand the REAL politics of Japan during and after IIWW. There are some many documents which are unknown to Western. So If you call that "democracy" I close an eye, and think "yes, US version". Many US storics don't understand even today some way of acting of Japan at time. But it was 60 years matters again. I only stated a simple sentence. If you can't read that, I can't do nothing. I don't believe in war. Simply. Because war is first of all a mental state. The mental state of people who claim/consider themselves better than others. But someone could ironically respond: "yes you (generic you) are better... (but you can't even understand what I'm saying)."

Posted by: Koe at March 05, 2005 11:34 PM (KniaQ)

132 http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=aRueVtaX.ri0&refer=europe Michael, what do you think, I just make things up? I will readily admit that I don't know if Bloomberg got the quote right or not, but it's in their story, and its in the article associated with this comment group, so I should think you would have known this if you had read the article before commenting. If you did but missed it, I suggest you go back and read it.

Posted by: Charles Wayne CT at March 05, 2005 11:36 PM (t2ioQ)

133 Koe, I'm glad to hear of your concern for History. Tell me Koe, what nationality formed the majority of the soldiers of the WWII Allied Force invasion Italy? The Allied invasion force which fought and died to rid Italy of Benito Mussolini's dictatorship. A fascist dictator responsible for the invasion of neighboring countries and the murder of thousands of innocent people. A fascist dictator who allied Italy with Hitler's Germany during the greatest genocidal bloodbath in modern history. Koe, from what country did most those Allied soldiers originate? Koe by the way, most of the European students that I work with have demonstrated a horrible background in American history, and most surprisingly, little knowledge of their own country's history during the last 200 years.

Posted by: Mirramele at March 05, 2005 11:43 PM (KtFTf)

134 Some of the posters on this thread are definitely chosen to act out Darwins law. Culling the gene pool.

Posted by: quark2 at March 05, 2005 11:43 PM (U98ZF)

135 Sally, your comments make no sense at all. US intelligence has no motivation to attack Italian communist journalists for what they write. Its ludicrous and solely comes from the more fevered depths of silly minds. You will have to come up with far more to make your illogical ravings even appear coherent. At this point, without more information, logic leads us to conclude that this incident arose from incompetence at the hands of someone - most likely those transporting Sgrena - than from any whacky conspiracy.

Posted by: Robin Roberts at March 05, 2005 11:44 PM (xauGB)

136 Koe, actually you are the one demonstating a poor knowledge of history - especially the history of the United States' intervention in international events.

Posted by: Robin Roberts at March 05, 2005 11:46 PM (xauGB)

137 Well, I find it very curious that you didn't take the time to read my post thoroughly. The "kidnapped" reporter was a COMMUNIST. Even with presented with incontraverable evidence that COMMUNISM is a force that has wrought for human hardship and death then any other in human HISTORY, she still stands by that ideology. I'm talking about the individual reporter, not Italy as a whole. If you want to talk history I'd be more than happy.... Also, I know the party line in Europe is that Americans don't understand history, Europe etc. It give you all a sense of superiority. You need it, because you have lost all sense of morals and ethics, you have few if any accomplishments. So you resort to...how did you put it..."sophisticated diplomacy"...well, I guess if you have ransacked your military in order to supplement a lavish social welfare system, then "sophisticated diplomacy" is kinda...you know...the only thing you can do. We tried diplomacy, and it was the cease-fire at the end of the Gulf War. If you try thinking outside of your European echo-chamber, you might realize that, in fact, this war was not illegal at all because Iraq had not adhered to the cease fire after the first Gulf War. So, yes diplomacy has its place....you should talk to Neville Chamberlain about how great diplomacy works...if England/France had responded to Hitler's aggression vis-a-vis Czechoslavakia with armed force do you have any idea how many lives would have been saved....don't just brush that off...think about it....millions and millions of people would have been saved, including many Italians. Millions, but hey, diplomacy is GREAT!! We, on the other hand have options. We are not restrained to "diplomacy" due to overindulgence in welfare. The status quo in the Middle East was not working. 40+ years of extremism culminating in the World Trade Center attacks. Al Quaeda was the instigator, but as leftist like to say there were "root causes". We saw the "root causes" as corrupt, authoritarian regimes. Democracies don't, as a rule, make war on each other. So why not give it a try, we thought. Seems to be working so far, and spreading a little bit too. Must eat you guys up having to see it working to plan. You can talk all you want about shooting women, children, etc. but you and I both know that when America does it is an accident. If you deny this then you are just simply a raving lunatic. My only question for you is - why the selective outrage? Where is the anger at China for imposing abortions? Where is the anger at North Korea, for starving men, women (and YES!) children while building expensive nuclear weapons? Not as fun to go after them, is it? Maybe because it is not as cool...not as hip.... Just food for though. I think most Europeans don't realize they are being led by the nose by a media and political elite to anti-Americanism because it gets them votes. You shouldn't bite the hand that feeds (ie protects) you. We may remember our friends when your "sophisticated" diplomacy results in an Iranian nuke heading your way....and maybe we just will decide to say "NO" to war then. Food for thought.

Posted by: F-Her at March 05, 2005 11:52 PM (PG+qd)

138 Mirramele, I'm sorry, but maybe I wasn't clear as I would. I try to explain again. I'm not against US. I'm against "this kind of policy choosen by US". And for my own regret, Italy has taken the same policy. The US have helped to free Italy in the IIWW, but I can't believe you make the assumption Italian person=Fascism=Mussolini. I hate ALL the genocide, made during IIWW, in many states of Africa, in Bosnia, Kossovo, or in Iraq. It's not a patriotic matter. It's a problem or prospective: the idea that ONLY war could the the way to obtain progress. I simply don't believe that. You don't have to remid me facts of 60 years ago. I write in this blog to report only FACTS about a loss that Italy had. I'm not here to defend or oppose a US or other country Government. I simply disagree with some choices. Can someone disagree? Or is it better to not say what someone thinks? Sartre said " If I can't say NO, the war is also MY war". Because otherwise it would be a form of agreement. US have many beautiful things. But have also ugly ones. As every nation. Every nation has its problems. I don't despise US. I despice war as the unique way of acting. I hope that my words helped to clarify. Otherwise I can't say in another way...

Posted by: Koe at March 05, 2005 11:58 PM (KniaQ)

139 Koe, you say you hate war. You say you hate genocide. Evidently you don't see the obvious contradictions in your own positions. Naivete is not a principle.

Posted by: Robin Roberts at March 06, 2005 12:04 AM (xauGB)

140 It's not my abitude to put together many realities, as questions about China, Iraq, Africa and so on. Every situation requires a deep knowledge not only of the last 50 years, but of (if it's possible) at least 4/5 centuries. Maybe it's my professional attitude to study history that make me talk in this way. I'm not here to talk about all the problems of the world, I think that the Government of all the nation of the world should. I went on this blog on - I repeat - to refer some information that couldn't be for non-Italian press, because there are few news. The reports I did, were from RAI, Italian TV and not by Il Manifesto. There will be Ms Sgrena's article on Il Manifesto in few hours... or well... I think it's already published 'cause here it' 7.14 am. But in my precedent posts I simply express my concern on a serious "accident" and I claimed that we are only waiting for TRUTH. I pointed no finger to nobody... so I don't understand why it's so difficult for you guys to understand my point of view. I don't think my English is so bad (and sorry if it is), but I only expressed my concern here. Everyone could think what he/she wants. But it's the lack of information that would cause post as some I've seen here. And I can't accept to see someone calling bad words on a woman who was shooten by soldiers, even if it's for error. Thinking is nothing releated with patriotism or ideology. Thinking is simply two or more people that reason together and respect each other, as I try to do... If someone can't reach it... Good night.

Posted by: Koe at March 06, 2005 12:18 AM (KniaQ)

141 KOE, You don't believe in war? See this is exactly the type of simplistic, childish, viewpoint that is going to lead your country to a very unsightly place. Don't believe in war??? What the hell does that even mean? War is ugly, brutal, nasty and is a last resort. But until the rest of us live in the perfect world you seem to already live in, there will be a need for armies to protect us. I guess that shouldn't worry you though, the US will always step in for you as the adult. Keep living your dreams, and don't drink the bong water, dude. As far as Japan goes, I know English isn't your native language, and I'm not going to put you down for that, but I need to make this clear: Japan NEVER had a democracy. Not close. Not even a non-"American-style" democracy. NONE. How did they get there? Was it the mysterious paperwork you refer to? NOOOOOO....it was at a cost of blood!!! Democracy quite literally at the barrel of a gun. General McArthur wrote their friggin constitution. Now, I don't expect you to know this....you probably only hear about our evil (sorry you probably don't use words like good and evil unless referring to the US) dropping of the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I'm here to tell you, today, that Japan is a democracy because men were willing to die, and America came not as a conquerer but a redeemer. And yes, you are right, that was sixty years ago, but America hasn't changed in this regard. We do what's right. Not what's easy. Not what's more profitabable (see France, Russia, China and just about every other backwater country). What's right...and it is why we are in Iraq. You might say..."but, but women, children,...dying...it's not worth it..." Funny those that say this were not very loud and emotional about Saddams and Uday's rape rooms...the people (300,000 last count) that just disappeared, never to be seen again until American and coalition forces uncovered their mass graves. I dare say there is some racism at work with the anti-war folks. They don't believe brown people are worth saving. And to quote you "if you don't understand what I'm saying there is nothing I can do"...how typically European of me.

Posted by: Richard James at March 06, 2005 12:20 AM (R4FGI)

142 Who cares if we lose our alliance with one more nation of cowardly European leftists? They are all allies of convienience, when they are invaded next time tell them to place a call to Paris if they want help, just don't call collect. The old joke about being able to buy used rifles from Italy after WWII was only funny because it was true, they were just like new, never fired and only dropped once. Does anyone really think that Italy would ever help us if we were being attacked? Does anyone think they could? They can barely keep their little Italian heads above water as it is, they sure aren't capable of helping defend us, they can't even defend themselves without our help. The time for all of Europe to pay for it's own defense in both money and boots on the ground came and went a long time ago, if they truly feel that we are the enemy then let's break our alliance and let them fend for themselves. Maybe John Kerry can fix them up with some stem cell research so they can fix their spinal deficiencies, backbones are in short supply over there.

Posted by: bullwinkle at March 06, 2005 12:21 AM (9KpI+)

143 I hate violence. Violence is war. Violence is genocide. Violence is oppression, mental and physical. Violence is abuse... The list could be longer and longer. Even stupidity is violence because stupidity can't make people think and confront, only attack. There are no contraddictions in what I hate. Bye, I do really need rest.

Posted by: Koe at March 06, 2005 12:22 AM (KniaQ)

144 Just because she was shot doesn't make her off-limits. SHE WAS A COMMUNIST. Doesn't that mean anything to any of you Eurpoeans? She embraced a horrific ideology, and promotes it. What she does as a reporter for Il Manifesto is many times worse then what the entire Iraq war represents, because she knows the history of communism and willfully ignores it, encourages its adoption, and would stand idly by why more victims of communism were shot, imprisoned, starved and generally left without any liberties. But, hey, the Americans put panties on a persons head at Abu Graib so its basically the same.....Europeans are sooooooo stupid!! What makes them even look even stupider is that they THINK they're smarter. Funny people them.

Posted by: F-Her at March 06, 2005 12:29 AM (R4FGI)

145 Koe, Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. We are criticizing one female, Italian, communist journalist; not assuming that all Italians agree with her political views. No-one thinks Italy is still controlled by the Fascist party. Americans know that Italy is more of a middle-of-the-road or conservative nation than the rest of Europe. Even the Italian Communist party is more conservative than elsewhere in Europe. Neither am I confusing Italy's current political environment with Fascist political movements which existed during earlier decades. Diplomatic history doesn't always bear out your argument that war is the easier route. Yes, diplomacy has its uses and works well within certain conditions, yet there are several historical examples where continued diplomatic negiotiations made matters worse. For example, diplomats brought about all those secret European alliances leading to WWI. Moreover, there are historical situations where military actions have been necessary to end tyranny. For example, your friend Garibaldi would not have agreed that all war is bad. Without warfare, Italy would never rid itself of the Hapsbergs and have remained an Austrian domain. Neither would Italy have become a unified nation constitutional monarchy,(later a republic) instead of the 19th-century hodgepodge of separate Italian countries.

Posted by: Mirramele at March 06, 2005 12:32 AM (KtFTf)

146 As far as you could be interested (not so much I suppose)... My work is on Japan's history, and I can access to Japanese language. I do know the US point of view. Not all the US know the Japanese's one. I'm referring not to "democracy" but to the way in which Japan look at itself... But that is out of concern. Don't go on another territory: it's of the Italian journalist that I'm talking about. You could express your comments on the attitude of Europe, your faith in war or whatsoever you like. It's only your point of view. It seems to me that you are too much linked to the faith of patriotism, that could be impossible to think that someone could have opened fire on a ally car... Italy don't know why this could happen. But it happened: it's a FACT. So we are asking for WHY. It's too much difficult to understand by you? If the positions were switched, with some guys who talk about "cospiracy" and "propaganda" wouldn't you be indignant? If this too much difficult to understant, too? PS. If I don't respond, it's because I do really need to sleep. Here there are at least 6/8 hours of time zone. Bye bye

Posted by: Koe at March 06, 2005 12:35 AM (KniaQ)

147 KOE - You are way out there dude. Your memorized slogans make no sense. War is not genocide...uh...genocide is genocide. As a matter of fact.....I..believe...yes...there it is in the old history book....war can actually STOP genocide. See chapter 5: Nazis, also chapter 9: Bosnia. And to see what happens when you don't make war on genocide see chapter 7: Rawanda). And here is the clincher "stupidity is violence because it makes you attack rather then think". Well, Mr Slogan, what happens when a stupid person attacks you? My God, are all Europeans like you? I'm losing the last remaining respect I had for your countries as I read your posts. I had actually bought a little into the idea that your people were somehow more educated. Silly me. Now go recite some more slogans that, even if they don't contradict, are just plain nonesense.

Posted by: Koe-ron at March 06, 2005 12:38 AM (R4FGI)

148 Dear Koe America helped rid Italy of the Nazi/Fascist stench. Italy returned the favor with the most wonderful of gifts. The Mafia. Thank you, Koe, and your country, for helping us in our war on Islamofascism. Fuck you Koe, and your country, for murdering thousands of our citizens based on your medieval Cosa Nostra. Which strongly resembles a certain "religion of peace." I do like fettucine alfredo, though.

Posted by: The Ayatollah Assahola at March 06, 2005 12:40 AM (lK7Sh)

149 clarification "remained an Austrian domain" to "large regions remaining under to control of Austrian monarchs." Also, although, this next example is overused but: Neville Chamber's diplomatic meeting with Hitler. Time for sleep, goodnight

Posted by: Mirramele at March 06, 2005 12:41 AM (KtFTf)

150 I agree, we should have answers. But don't sit back and pretend that you are not one trying to promote the "conspiracy theories" that you refer to. The default position is to believe the worst about the US. They were in a very wicked country. Mistakes happen. Sometimes it is just that simple. As big of a communist whore as she was, no one in the American military is going to risk their career and possible imprisonment just to rid the world of a communist sympathizer, as good as that would be. And, once again, the biggest mistake was the ACCIDENTAL killing of your brave intelligence officer. It should have been the communist, who was treated well by her captors. Gee, I wonder why she was treated well? Now, continue on with your anti-Americanism. Oh, yeah, I forgot...your not anti-American....right....

Posted by: F-Her at March 06, 2005 12:45 AM (R4FGI)

151 F-Herr, please... She is a "comunist"? Ok, let your mouth take all the air you need. She was in Iraq, she talked us abour what she saw. Her photos. The bombs used there on children. Comunists hate children, didn't you know? Mirramele, Italian's politic is very strange. Too difficult to understand even for us in our country. Really. Too much ideology. Too much attaks government/opposition. It's their favourite sport. Forza Italia (Berlusconi's political force) is not Fascism. Even if it's conservatory-like. As for Garibaldi... he did war. History is made up of war. Well he make the Italy unified for the first time, 'cause we have dominionations of foreign Empires. But he was ITALIAN. Not a foreign man.

Posted by: Koe at March 06, 2005 12:49 AM (KniaQ)

152 It's not possible to talk in a civil way with people who can't even read nor understand what someone else wrote... Now I understand why many Europeans are so anti-US. I'm sorry for the US people who are civil and intelligent enough to understand and talk without shout. As in every nation, there are intelligent people and stupid people. It's life. Who doesn't own a brain, can't understand... and see comunism everywhere. And there is no need to reply further...

Posted by: Koe at March 06, 2005 01:00 AM (KniaQ)

153 KOE, Yes, I will take some air. Fresh air is good for the mind. You must have quite a bit of pollution where your at. - Yes she's a communist. That is established. - No, communists don't hate kids, but their actions have killed more kids then any other ideology. Don't argue that, its fact. - If you can't tell the ethical difference between accidental bombing killing MINIMAL amounts of innocent civilians as opposed intentional killing by Saddam, then you are a miserable human wretch. I'm tired of pulling punches. You are not a peace advocate, you are an advocate for homicidal dictators and the like. America is a force for good. Period. Cite me evidence where America INTENIONALLY killed innocents in this war and we'll discuss. Don't say that America covers it up either, we have every single press agency in the world trying to pin something on us, so that doesn't work buddy. You know America is bad, so 1 single intentional death. Just one....I'll wait....still waiting.....

Posted by: F-Her at March 06, 2005 01:00 AM (R4FGI)

154 Koe, your comments continue to make no sense. And obviously not just because english isn't your first language. Communism murdered over 100 million in the last century - including children. Pathetic rhetoric about "bombs" just shows you are not a serious person.

Posted by: Robin Roberts at March 06, 2005 01:02 AM (xauGB)

155 Just to give an example of the idiocy of the left I'd like to point out how hard it would be to see into a car with the headlights glaring in your eyes and determining whether or not the occupants were dark skinned compared to looking out of the car with the help of headlights and determining whether the soldiers at the checkpoint were Americans or not. The lefties just don't get it, they never even bother trying.

Posted by: bullwinkle at March 06, 2005 01:03 AM (9KpI+)

156 KOE, Ahhh, when all else fails and you start losing an argument, start crying about how uncivilized the other person is. You are the typicall liberal. And no, we don't see communists everywhere, only when it is an ADMITTED communist reporting for a COMMUNIST newspaper. That is just so paranoid of us..... As far as many Europeans being anti-US, I think it is high time some Americans got a little anti-European. We've got plenty of reasons, and you are a poster child for those reasons.

Posted by: Koe-ron at March 06, 2005 01:05 AM (R4FGI)

157 Yes, bullwinkle, and if you try explaining it to them, they will point how uncivilized and stupid you are. Intellectual superiority is the only possible virtue they have left, and they cling to it like a life raft, hoping that they are not drowned in a sea of logical counter-arguments.

Posted by: F-Her at March 06, 2005 01:11 AM (R4FGI)

158 I think it is high time some Americans got a little anti-European. Yeah, when are we going to get around to that? Oh, wait...

Posted by: mantis at March 06, 2005 02:23 AM (zmcHh)

159 Mantis - I suppose that is what passes for a snappy retort where you're from. Let me put in a simpler way for you - you'll know the US is anti-European when we start voting a certain way in the UN just because it is in opposition to European interests, much the way a good part of Europe does with the US. Also, some behind the scenes maneuvering/cajoling to entice others to vote against European interests, ala the French in the run-up to the Iraq war. Then, even witty people like you will know we are being anti-European. Until then we will just wait for Europe to implode as they bite at our ankles, criticizing incessantly as the US goes about the business of trying to make the world a better place for future generations of ALL countries, not just welfare-state European nitwits.

Posted by: Daisy Duke at March 06, 2005 03:14 AM (R4FGI)

160 There are questions, not that I'm asking, but no one has even suggested that she pulled the trigger on the Italian agent... its possible, but not probable, unless she really HAD set it up, and needed him dead. Eeew! It ascribes execrable motives and mores to an already tainted woman!

Posted by: Carridine at March 06, 2005 03:25 AM (Splh2)

161 Daisy, I look forward to that. In the meantime I'll just enjoy freedom fries and Bill O'Reilly's boycott. High-larious

Posted by: mantis at March 06, 2005 03:29 AM (zmcHh)

162 mantis - Yes, we'll just have to wait. For now the US doesn't need to turn diplomatic relations into something resembling a teenage temper tantrum like some of our erstwhile "allies" seem to do. By the way, if memory serves me, it is not just Bill O'Reilly boycotting Europe (more specifically France). Last article I read about relations had interviews with several Parisian hotel and restaraunt owners begging Americans to return in their previous numbers. I'll bet this "high-larious" boycott added a few tenths of a point to the upswing in already high (I believe record-high)unemployment in France. If so you may want to ask those displaced employees how "high-larious" Bill O'Reilly is. Then again it that may be more attributable to French economic inaptitude, 3 hour liquid lunches and continuous union strikes combined with the loss of their sugar-daddy Saddam's blood money via the Oil-for-food program. Keep eating them freedom fries!!!

Posted by: Daisy Duke at March 06, 2005 03:45 AM (R4FGI)

163 This tragedy is *precisely* the reason why it is a war crime for combatants to conceal themselves within the civilian population. The blame for this woman's death lies with the "insurgents". If they weren't posing as civilians in their attacks then US soldiers, Iraqi security personnel and Iraqi civilians wouldn't need to defend themselves from civilian automobiles.

Posted by: am at March 06, 2005 03:58 AM (ruCAs)

164 If the U.S. did this on purpose, we should be very ashamed. All the money we spend training these troops and they can't kill a smelly, dirty, commie bitch? I demand an answer from my Congressman. Why do these soldiers need more target practice?

Posted by: hulley at March 06, 2005 05:31 AM (y4PlS)

165 Sally: You really must believe that the US intelligence service is the worst in the world, nay, in the universe. If they wanted her to be dead, they would have done what they did to those 4 Al-Qaeda guys a couple of years back in Yemen(?). Used a remote controled plane with a Hellfire missile. They wouldn't even been able recognize the remains.

Posted by: madne0 at March 06, 2005 06:46 AM (S9ApA)

166 Dear friends, As a Pro-US Italian who is disgusted with many of her countrymen,I have to say that I agree 100% with what you say here.

Posted by: Stefania at March 06, 2005 07:14 AM (6NBdg)

167 If the commie hag had not faked her own kidnapping to begin with, she would not have caused the death of the italian itel guy- Commie fraud Beee-Ach! Dear Lord: Please send this hairy lipped commie scribbler a horrific case of anal warts.

Posted by: obsnooks at March 06, 2005 07:51 AM (cXqSY)

168 Ihttp://www.boston.com/dailynews/065/world/Italian_journalist_wounded_in_:.shtml From the article ...In her article, Sgrena wrote that her captors warned her as she was about to be released not to signal her presence to anyone, because ''the Americans might intervene.'' I wonder if they ALSO advised the driver to speed through US checkpoints. I wonder who the driver was ... This story stinks. PS Minor point ... there are all these comments made by Sgrena's boyfriend ... but isn't she ALSO supposed to be married with 2 kids back in Italy ... ???? Also ...Wasn't she wounded in the arm? And she can still type an account ????

Posted by: FrauBudgie at March 06, 2005 07:56 AM (Q6HU9)

169 Amerikani assassini.

Posted by: Spartaco at March 06, 2005 08:00 AM (0GJ72)

170 Is it possible that this kerfuffle was captured on a videotape security camera at the check point? And is it futher possible that the US is simply waiting for these bastards to further ensnare themselves before releasing the tape? Hmmnnn?

Posted by: profwalker at March 06, 2005 09:54 AM (IeZnt)

171 Carridine, Read my list of questions posted in the earlier part of the comments. The Italian government should have a police forensics expert examine the agent's wounds to determine type, distance and direction of the weapon that killed him.

Posted by: Mirramele at March 06, 2005 09:54 AM (Eoe3J)

172 Amerikani assassini e teste di cazzo. http://www.repubblica.it/2005/c/sezioni/esteri/iraq45/cermiss/cermiss.html

Posted by: Spartaco at March 06, 2005 10:03 AM (0GJ72)

173 "The soldiers fired into the engine block to stop vehicle". Has it been admitted by the soldiers that they also intentially fired into the vehicle passenger area to stop the vehicle? Just curious about whose gun the bullets that killed the intel came from..

Posted by: stupidanddumb at March 06, 2005 10:09 AM (0Unub)

174 Let Sgrena read her "holy" Koran.. what a moron she is !

Posted by: Stefania at March 06, 2005 10:42 AM (6NBdg)

175 Does anyone have the web address to her communist paper? I haven't been able to find it.

Posted by: CJ at March 06, 2005 11:20 AM (cEqQB)

176 It's hard to imagine how Italians can ctually be swallowing this bunk from a woman who works for a propagandist newspaper. She is now claiming she was targeted because a ransom was paid for her. This is just such a ridiculous, and stupid statement. surely people are more intelligent than this? The worst part for me is that the Italian Secret Service agent died to save her worthless life. That is a shame.

Posted by: Trapeze at March 06, 2005 11:44 AM (ds4O8)

177 Someone asked for her employer's contact information and email. This is the IL Manifesto's website http://216.239.37.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.ilmanifesto.it/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dil%2Bmanifesto%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D

Posted by: Mirramele at March 06, 2005 11:45 AM (Eoe3J)

178 In my opinion Sgrena got that intelligence guy killed. Regardless of her politics or anything else,she put herself in a position where this kidnapping(or not)could occur. She knew the risks. It wasn't long ago that another woman (the british/iraqi that helped so many for over thirty years)was kidnapped and killed. It was Sgrena's decisions which placed herself in danger and then endangered the lives of her countrymen and ultimately killed them and wounded her. She is the one who is to blame for this.

Posted by: Rich at March 06, 2005 12:00 PM (KSEUz)

179 “Her left-wing newspaper Il Manifesto announced they would hold a "peace" rally(uh huh..oh really? Lenin promoted a "peaceful" Communist revolution?) The "peace" rally will be held in Rome later on Saturday.” The Communist anti-democracy radical left are planning on an early rally, before any formal investigations prove this reporter to be a lier. Once the forensics report, interviews with the soldiers and other investigative information becomes available, IL Manfesto will be revealed to be screaming assumptions, speculations and lies. Are there any Italian Protest Warriors available to present the other side? Questions to be answered: Was the weapon proven to be used by the soldiers? How do we know the reporter didn’t murder the agent to create a story and gain political power? We need to know what type of weapon was used, and the distance and direction of the bullet. We need to find out if the driver worked for the kidnappers/terrorist group t(hat she claimed kidnapped her) and if so, could the driver have volunteered for a suicide mission by attempting to speed past a checkpoint ordering them to slow down? Again, any Italian Protest Warriors available?

Posted by: Mirramele at March 06, 2005 12:21 PM (Eoe3J)

180 Why do the Italians pay ransom? This may be hard for some of you Europeans to understand, but when a ransom is paid it endangers future potential hostages. What the Italian gov't did here is shameful and is clearly indicative a of weak culture. A poster said earlier she is to blame, as well as the non-uniformed,illegal combatants that make this sort of action against civilian vehicles necessary. I agree 100%, great point.

Posted by: JohnW at March 06, 2005 12:48 PM (N+V3m)

181 Canny -- Careful and shrewd, especially where one's own interests are concerned. Uncanny -- Peculiarly unsettling, as if of supernatural origin or nature; eerie. I believe you meant to use uncanny rather than canny in the 8th paragraph down.

Posted by: Mr. Monk at March 06, 2005 01:06 PM (0UpPc)

182 They paid $10,000,000 to free her. This was a kidnapping that satified a lot of people. She knew it was only about money but dramatized the ordeal when she knew her life was not in danger. First glance appears to be a friendly fire death which is sad.

Posted by: EP at March 06, 2005 02:19 PM (6krEN)

183 Amerikani = Assassini

Posted by: Spartaco at March 06, 2005 02:51 PM (XpINw)

184 The Driver didn't stop because like any driving in Italy, they don't know how to use the brakes. He thought he was back on a typical Italian road, where the cops sometimes put up a road block checkpoint where they wave that big lolly-Pop stick in their hand wanting you to stop. Of course in Italy you're supposed to stop at check points or road blocks, but you don't have to do that in Iraq. Apparently he thought it was driving, oops, I mean speeding, on a typical Italian road and he could ignore any road block!! You need brains to make a decision and use up the energy in thinking about stopping! You ever see an Italian working, I mean really working!! or use his brains! They do wonders with steel balls..

Posted by: Vic at March 06, 2005 02:57 PM (uq30O)

185 I thought it made a lot more sense than the deranged theories about Jeff Gannon being involved with "Rathergate" and the Plame story. Just wait a few days, and we'll find out there's a lot more to this story than meets the eye.

Posted by: EyeDoc at March 06, 2005 02:58 PM (WjQ47)

186 Just the obvious. If the car had been actively targeted for destruction, there would be NO survivors. Not when a Bradley got through with it. You'd be able to bury all four in a coffee can, and you'd be able to take the vehicle body remnants home in a shopping cart. There's a story here that doesn't add up, and it's not the checkpoint soldiers'. "Ambush," my sweet little donkey.

Posted by: Spanky at March 06, 2005 03:14 PM (botyS)

187 Italianos===aarrrggghhhh!!! God, said I needed to do penance and so he sent me to Italy. Well, the pasta and vino was good.

Posted by: vic at March 06, 2005 03:16 PM (uq30O)

188 Rumors are that she was pretty smart, more so than you think. The Ransom money was in the millions, some say 4 million, others say 10 million, but the suspicion is that even though she was told ten times not to go into that building, she still insisted, and the rumor is that she had to go in that building in order to be purposely kidnapped and make up the whole kidnapping story, she already knew the people who would supposedly kidnap her so that they could split the Ransom, she was very friendly with certain Iraqis' before. So, she set up her own Bull Shit kidnapping story in order to split the Ransom. It's not the first time such ideas have worked. Italy should either put this actress bimbo in jail or set up a suspicion trial, something is too fishy, especially since she had the camerman hold on as she acted. Hey, she's an Italian and a communist one at that!! Anyway, Pass this on, the Italians honestly believe she was innocent..

Posted by: Vic at March 06, 2005 04:08 PM (uq30O)

189 Wait! It gets better. Here's a picture of her car AFTER it was shot by "300 to 400 bullets," as many news outlets are reporting: http://snipurl.com/d9iu Amazing how they shot out the front windshield! And look at all the bullet holes! Oh wait. They didn't blow out the windshield, and there AREN'T any bullet holes! Hmm... I sniff a fish.

Posted by: Wonderduck at March 06, 2005 04:08 PM (ywZa8)

190 http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=14962_Maybe_All_400_Bullets_Missed#comments

Posted by: h0mi at March 06, 2005 04:16 PM (LuPL2)

191 Sally said : You really dug down deep for that one, didn't you Trapeze? Thanks for not adding any constructive thought to this forum, we all appreciate it. Your contribution is some idiotic conspiracy, and you're accusing me of not adding anything constructive? You are stupid beyond belief. Get a grip on reality and maybe I'll indulge your request. Until then, lay off the crack.

Posted by: Trapeze at March 06, 2005 04:57 PM (ds4O8)

192 Spartaco said : Amerikani = Assassini Spartaco = Retarded

Posted by: Trapeze at March 06, 2005 04:58 PM (ds4O8)

193 This selfish woman was responsible for getting a good man killed. She should be asking this man's family for forgivness. Rather, she rants in her self absorbed way about how America is to blame. What a waste of a good life. How sad for his family to know it was given for this worthless piece of garbage

Posted by: Brad at March 06, 2005 05:48 PM (ywZa8)

194 Hey you sick americans trying to smear dirt on a courageous woman, instead of hiding behind your computers why don't you all take a holyday in Baghbad to meet the people you liberated. Maybe they show you some gratitude !

Posted by: I'm french' & I'm proud at March 06, 2005 06:11 PM (xTwDq)

195 There are pictures at AP and elsewhere of the car. Windscreen in one piece and the engine block shot....so if there were some 300-400 shots how come 90% appear to have missed? How come the windscreen is OK? In NI everyone knows the score - checkpoint? Sloooow down or get shot. Simple no? How come these experienced security chaps did not? Wait until the facts are all gathered in but I for one do not beleive half of what the mad woman is saying now as she keeps changing her story. BBC is now saying she says she was targeted deliberately. Yeah right. Had she been so then she'd be dead.

Posted by: dave t at March 06, 2005 06:29 PM (4zT3Y)

196 I don't believe that this event was orchestrated by Italy, or that this woman is crazy enough to have staged or facilitated her abduction. However, if you did not predict, knowing who this woman is, that she would immediately accuse Americans of firing on the car on purpose then you are as equally as dumb as those who believe this was a set-up by the Italian left. This woman HATES the war in Iraq, and she dispises the Coalition, although it seems that she singles out Americans as if NO-ONE else is fighting in Iraq. I'm surprised that she HAS to point out that she was not "treated badly." Uh, HELLO? You were captured by a militant group who execute Iraqis on a DAILY basis. She just got lucky because she's a woman. And there are reports that there may have been a ransom paid by the Italians. Shootings like this occur daily. However, they are a necessary evil and despite what some of you idiots thoughtlessly blurt out, these checkpoints have thwarted several prospective car bomb attacks, or in the least minimized their damage. She said it wasn't a checkpoint, but that they flashed lights on her????? Yes, lights from a CHECKPOINT which are used at night to warn incoming vehicles. What is WRONG with this woman? She escapes from the hands of a disgusting breed of mostly-foreigners who have decided they're going to slaughter any Iraqi involved with rebuilding the country and she talks about them like they're freedom fighters. And now America purposefully tried to kill her?????? Do you really think that in the dark of night ANY soldier at that checkpoint knew who was inside the car???? Clearly there is a very POOR line of communication between the Italian efforts in this release and the Americans and there needs to be an investigation. We need to find out whether the Italians made the Coalition aware of their efforts and where they were going to be. If it is found that there was no knowledge of her release, then you cannot blame the soldiers at the checkpoint for following the protocol that has been IN PLACE FOR OVER A YEAR. Geez, people, THINK. Stop these heated trainwrecks-of discussions about an Italian left-wing conspiracy or an American right-wing conspiracy. You're both WRONG.

Posted by: Igor Kazakov at March 06, 2005 06:42 PM (xM3Dg)

197 Well first of all that picture is not of the right car, it is of the car she was kidnapped from originally (check LGF for that update). There is no picture of the car that was shot at that I know of. Second, for a little perspective on checkpoints in Iraq (for those of you convinced this was some sort of suicide mission on the part of the Italians in order to make the U.S. look bad. Idiots, the lot of you), check here. There are checkpoints and there are patrols, and there is some dispute as to which this one was, but the article talks about both. Especially consider: "You're driving along and you see a couple of soldiers standing by the side of the road - but that's a pretty ubiquitous sight in Baghdad, so you don't think anything of it. Next thing you know, soldiers are screaming at you, pointing their rifles and swiveling tank guns in your direction, and you didn't even know it was a checkpoint." .... "This feeling is a holdover from the days of Saddam, when driving slowly past a government building or installation was considered suspicious behavior. Get caught idling past the wrong palaces or ministry, and you might never be seen again....This fear comes into play at checkpoints because US troops are often accompanied by a cordon of Iraqi security forces - and a lot of the assassinations and kidnappings have been carried out by Iraqi security forces or people dressed in their uniforms. Often the Iraqi security forces are the first troops visible at checkpoints. If they are angry-looking and you hear shots being fired, it becomes easier to misread the situation and put the pedal to the metal." .... "The essential problem with checkpoints is that the Americans don't know if the Iraqis are "friendlies" or not, and the Iraqis don't know what the Americans want them to do." Food for thought.

Posted by: mantis at March 06, 2005 06:43 PM (zmcHh)

198 Yes I'd like to know as well after looking at those pictures where are the 300-400 bullet holes? Also, spartaca really nailed with her incongruent quotes about "no bright light" and then a "spotlight." If she really believes those are two completely different things, well, I feel sorry for her.

Posted by: Igor Kazakov at March 06, 2005 06:46 PM (xM3Dg)

199 The Italian Intelligence service lost a senior officer. How did he get in the way? Did he know he was assigned to protect a left-wing moonbat? He's dead. And, his fellow officers could care less about this? They'll just swallow the official communist line? Things happen fast in war zones. And, most people who have been to Italy will tell you just crossing the street takes your life into your hands. Italian drivers are nuts. They aren't spooked by roadway definitions, either. And, the guy's dead from a single bullet wound to the head. While sitting in the back of the car. And, the passenger in the front seat was doing what? Who forced the driver to use speed, when caution was necessary? So many holes in this story. Thank goodness for the Internet. And, the ability of many who read this to raise the questions that need to be asked. HA! Once, the MSM thought the weekends were slow newsdays. But not to us in pajamas. I hope our Iraqi troops know we're going to be on top of this until the TRUTH COMES OUT! And, as far as Eason Jordan goes, I don't want to hear from him until he releases his remarks from Davos. HIP DEEP IN THE BIG MUDDY. NO TURNING AROUND, NOW.

Posted by: Carol Herman at March 06, 2005 06:52 PM (4BTRS)

200 Hey, "I'm French...", this "courageous" woman is calling US soldiers assassins. So I'm calling her a liar.

Posted by: Robin Roberts at March 06, 2005 07:17 PM (xauGB)

201 Mr. Steve Stuart, you seem to have no life other than pushing leftist views in a weblog comments section. Go outside and get some fresh air, please. Herr Kommissar Meyer: Achtung, du spinnst und atmst Hass. Everybody, please wait a few days until after this mess is cleared up and more facts are brought out.

Posted by: Comrade_Tovarich at March 06, 2005 07:25 PM (W1wPB)

202 You had this nailed from the start Rusty - she was a fucking shill. BTW, I think we need to come up with a name for this traffic phenomenon that seems somewhat unique to The Jawa Report. Some ideas: MoonBatalanche Leftalanche Moronalanche Same-Loser-Posting-Over-And-Over-aLanche Wow-DU-Must-be-Downalanche

Posted by: John from WuzzaDem at March 06, 2005 07:46 PM (Pt3Le)

203 Again, I want to pose this question: how in God's name would the soldiers at the checkpoint know that this car contained Sgrena and Italian intelligence? Did they stalk the officers and watch the rescue? Then relayed their position back to soldiers who HAPPENED to be in their escape route? Come on.

Posted by: Igor Kazakov at March 06, 2005 08:02 PM (xM3Dg)

204 French & Proud - Two points: - of what do you have to be proud of, being French? Jeez, you may want to look at your country and rethink that pride. - yes we are putting this "courageous" (as you put it) woman down. She is a dirty communist, and as fun as you think they are (much like you thought Facism was a good time when you entertained the Nazis for 4 years), they are responsible for more human suffering in world history then any other ideological force. Any. She is a filthy whore for the communist cause, and, I'm sorry to say, we Americans don't think that a person who furthers this ideology is "courageous". But I guess we and a handful of other populations, are the only ones who actually combine intellect WITH backbone in order to form our plans of actions. As to your point about taking a "holyday" (it's holiday moron) to go to Iraq, it may be beyond you to understand, but one can have an opinion about something without being knee deep in combat. And I'm fairly certain that a majority of Iraqis would indeed show us gratitude, unlike you filthy frogs. French = Cowards

Posted by: Richard James at March 06, 2005 08:24 PM (PG+qd)

205 This is all bullshit served by a commie wop skanky slut-ball. And never forget, an italian whore is a pizza ass.

Posted by: Mr. K at March 06, 2005 09:21 PM (w/2iI)

206 LGF has several different, inconsistent interviews with Sgrena. She can't tell the same story twice so far. But when she is pinned down, she has no reason to make any accusations of being deliberately attacked.

Posted by: Robin Roberts at March 06, 2005 09:55 PM (xauGB)

207 To be fair and on the record, the picture I linked to earlier has proven to be false. Follow the link and you'll read the whole explanation. Sorry. In my defense, the AP is being INCREDIBLY vague here.

Posted by: Wonderduck at March 06, 2005 10:50 PM (ywZa8)

208 This is what happens when we have people that can't hack it in community college armed with machine guns guarding checkpoints. Fuck the troops.

Posted by: John H. at March 06, 2005 11:22 PM (nlWFp)

209 What drives me crazy about almost all of the previous posts is the complete miss on the potential ransom paid. Was a ransom paid for her release or not? This should be a simple question and one of media interest. The potential damage done by $1M+ more being in the IED game is a moral ball and chain that Sgrena cannot simply skulk away from while accusing the US troops. The potential death that those $ bring into the game cannot fairly be calculated to equal the life of one journalist. American troops and Iraqi citizens will pay the price for these selfish negotiations. The MSM needs to be looking into the ransom issue..., all other issues will pale in comparison when the potential damage of this payoff is unleashed. There are rules, she would have made it past the checkpoint without issue had she complied with the requirements. I have no sense of urgency when it comes to journalists...they get in line with John Doe. Specifially to John H., come to my house for cocktails tommorrow, and I'll give you a class on where your rights come from.

Posted by: Major Mike at March 07, 2005 12:42 AM (fLlQ8)

210 John H. provides a fine example of the "support the troops" mentality in action. Not. Well said, Major Mike. Its clear that Sgrena is on the side of the terrorists.

Posted by: Robin Roberts at March 07, 2005 01:02 AM (xauGB)

211 It's really what I call the Islamo-Fascist 'Witch-test'. In the middle ages the test was pretty simple. I'm probably remembering incorrectly as my head is crowded by the 'MontyPythonHolyGrail-as-light-as-a-duck' test... but it boils down to if the woman floats she's burned as a witch and if she sinks, she's mourned, but proven innocent. So as with the three Japanese 'hostage-frauds', the two Italian 'hostage-frauds', the recently released "journalist" who was able to prove his anti-American writings to be excused, and now Mrs. Hail-of-Bullets... This woman faced the "test". Would she die and so be proven an innocent victim, or be released and be proven a collaborator? The irony of course is that the 'witch' is released to burn us... rather then be burned. My apologies to Witches of course... I don't mean to compare you to terrorists... rather I was struck by the Medieval nature of the Islamofascist methodology.

Posted by: DANEgerus at March 07, 2005 02:15 AM (WbXzj)

212 THE ONLY WAY ANY OF THIS NONSENSE ABOUT THE JOURNALIST RIGGING HER OWN ABDUCTION MAKES ANY SENSE, IS IF THE ITALIAN SECRET SERVICE WAS IN ON THE PLAN AND TOLD THE DRIVER TO KEEP GOING AFTER AMERICAN TROOPS TRIED TO STOP THE CAR. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS. THIS WAS A HIT. SOMEONE FROM THE CIA/MOSSAD DIDN'T WANT THIS YOUNG LADY TO COME BACK ALIVE. THE AGENT THAT WAS KILLED SAID AS MUCH BEFORE HE WAS SHOT.

Posted by: GUITAR X at March 07, 2005 02:22 AM (4glSZ)

213 To "I'm French & I'm proud"..dated 6 march Well, as a trader yes, you should be a proud Frenchman. In the invasion of Normandy, there were five beach heads, one Canadian, two British, and two American, not one god blessed French beach heads. In that invasion there were 170 Frenchmen, and not one single one got a scratch, all the rest of the cowards were in Africa sunning themselves and waiting for the liberation of Paris. Real proud of that aren't you, you had to have someone else liberate you stupid asses from the Germans, You gave up all of France in 20 minutes when Germany invaded your country. Be proud of that hero, make a poster of it and put it on the Paris walls. All your country did was sell arms to Saddam conniving and corruption, Bush got wise to you doings, and kicked your asses out of Iraq Hope you never get to go back to do your dirty corruptions again. Frogs, arrgghhh!! =========== *["We do not accept a false caricature that divides the Western world between an idealistic United States and a cynical Euro

Posted by: Vic at March 07, 2005 02:46 AM (ul3Uv)

214 Schifosi assassini

Posted by: Spartaco at March 07, 2005 08:05 AM (jmWCy)

215 Guitar, you are quite confused. This is not surprising given that Sgrena can't tell the same story twice.

Posted by: Robin Roberts at March 07, 2005 09:30 AM (xauGB)

216 Please note that Il Manifesto is not "leftist", it's COMMUNIST.

Posted by: Roman at March 07, 2005 09:44 AM (3ApEW)

217 WELL, I'M AN ITALIAN RETIRED AIR FORCE OFFICER. I hope this gets some attention... US citizens should understand that some political positions in Italy are anti-american "a priori", regardless of what the US does, or doesn't. Giuliana Sgrena's fiancee declared on Italian TV that he was sure she had been ambushed, because the Americans didn't want her to get back to Italy. With all due respect for Giuliana Sgrena, I had never heard of her before her abduction, and I am an Italian living in Italy. So I imagine she wasn't exactly an household name in the USA either... Why then would the US want to try and kill her? And more to the point, (and I speak as an officer who spent 10 years working with US personnel)if the US wanted her dead, she would be dead. A machine gun burst, a frag lobbed into the wreck... So, in my opinion, the truth is: lack of coordination between US and Italian people on the field; maybe some overeagerness of the Italian driver, darkness, some soldier who had lost 1500 friends and didn't really want to be the next to go back in a body bag. Please feel free to comment on my little literary work. regds gb

Posted by: giulio at March 07, 2005 09:57 AM (MIWAC)

218 Stupid reporters should not be in a country as dangerous as iraq running around looking for a nice story,you know the consiquences you want them to remove your head too,and then put others at risk trying to help your sorry commie ass look what she has done and for what to give those bastards $10 mil nice that money will be used to keep this shit going longer,and to help kill a man trying to save her commie ass.Send more reporters over there and give them payola they should have used the ransom money to protect her with armed guards so none of this would have happened in the first place stupid journelists should stay out of hot zones she is the one that should have taken the bullet not the brave man who fell to save a dirty commie bitch

Posted by: Den at March 07, 2005 10:24 AM (I4wCe)

219 March 6, 2005 (from Il Manifesto)—I am still in the darkness. Last Friday was the most dramatic day of my life since I was abducted. I had just spoken with my abductors, who for days kept telling me I would be released. So I was living in wait. They said things that I would understand only later. They talked of transfer related problems. I had learned to understand which way the wind blew from the attitude of my two "sentinels," the two fellows who watched over me every day—especially one of them, who attended to my requests, was incredibly bold. In the attempt to understand what was going on, I provocatively asked him if he was happy because I would go away or because I would stay. I was surprised and happy when, for the first time, he told me, "I only know you will go, but I don't know when." To confirm that something new was happening, at one point they both came in the room to reassure me and joke: "Congratulations," they said, "you are leaving for Rome." To Rome, that's what they were saying. I had a weird feeling, because that word immediately evoked liberation but also projected a void inside myself. I realized it was the most difficult moment of my abduction and that if all I had lived yet was certain, now an abyss of heavy uncertainties was widening. I changed my clothes. They came back: "We'll escort you, but don't give signals of your presence, otherwise the Americans might intervene." That was not what wanted to hear. It was the happiest and also the most dangerous moment. If we ran into someone, meaning American troops, there would be an exchange of fire, and my captors were ready and they would have responded. I had to have my eyes covered. I was already getting used to a temporary blindness. About what happened outside, I only knew that in Baghdad it had rained. The car ran safely in a muddy area. There was the driver and the same old abductors. I soon heard something I didn't want to hear. A helicopter flying low over the area we had stopped in. "Don't worry, now they will come look for you . . . within ten minutes they will come." They had spoken Arabic all the time, some French and much broken English. Now they spoke in this way, too. Then they got out of the car. I stayed in that condition of immobility and blindness. My eyes were stuffed with cotton, and covered by sunglasses. I was motionless. I thought . . . what do I do? Should I start counting the passing seconds to another condition, the one of freedom? I had just started counting when I heard a friendly voice: "Giuliana, Giuliana, this is Nicola, don't worry, I've talked to Gabriele Polo, don't worry, you're free." He took my cotton blindfold and sunglasses off. I felt relieved, not for what was going on, which I didn't understand, but for Nicola's words. He kept talking nonstop, he was uncontainable, a flood of friendly words and jokes. I finally found comfort, almost physically, a warm comfort I had long since forgotten. The car proceeded on its way, through an underpass full of puddles, almost skidding to avoid them. We engaged in incredible laughter. It was relieving. Skidding along a road full of water in Baghdad and maybe have a bad car crash after all I had experienced would not be really explainable. Nicola Calipari sat by my side. The driver had notified the embassy and Italy twice that we were heading to the airport, which I knew was controlled by the American troops. It was less than one kilometre, they told me . . . when. . . . I remember only fire. At that point a rain of fire and bullets came at us, forever silencing the happy voices from a few minutes earlier. The driver started shouting we were Italians, "We are Italians! We are Italians . . ." Nicola Calipari dove on top of me to protect me and immediately, and I mean immediately, I felt his last breath as he died on me. I must have felt physical pain, I didn't know why. But I had a sudden thought: I recalled my abductors' words. They said they were deeply committed to releasing me, but that I had to be careful because "the Americans don't want you to return." Back then, as soon as they had said that, I had judged their words to be meaningless and ideological. In that moment such words risked to take the taste of the most bitter truth away. I can't tell the rest yet. This was the most dramatic moment. But the month I spent as a kidnap victim has probably changed my life forever. One month alone with myself, prisoner of my deepest belief. Each hour was a pitiless test of my work. Sometimes they kidded me. They even asked me why I would leave and asked me to stay. I pointed out that I had personal relationships. They led me to think to such priorities that too often we put aside. "Ask for your husband's help," they told me. And I did so in the first video, the one I think you all have watched. My life has changed. Same as Ra'ad Ali Abdulaziz's, the Iraqi engineer from "Un Ponte per" who was abducted with Simona & Simona. "My life is no longer the same," he told me. I didn't understand. Now I know what he meant. Because I have experienced the hardness of the truth, I realize the difficulty of communicating it, and the weakness of trying to. In the first days of my abduction I didn't shed a single tear. I was simply mad. I told them directly: "How can you abduct me, if I am against the war?" And they started a fierce debate. "Yes, because you want to speak to the people, we would never abduct a reporter who stays shut in the hotel. And then the fact you say you're against the war could be a cover up." I would reply, almost provoking them: "It's easy to abduct a weak woman like me, why don't you do it to the American officers?" I insisted that they couldn't ask the Italian government to withdraw its troops; that they had to address the Italian people who were and are against the war, not Italian government. It was a month of ups and downs, moments of hope and moments of deep depression. Like when the first Sunday after my abduction, in the Baghdad house where I was prisoner and where there was a satellite television dish, they let me see the EuroNews. I saw my poster on the Rome city hall building. I was relieved. Soon after, however, a claim from the Jihad announced I would be executed if Italy didn't withdraw its troops. I was frightened. But they reassured me that it wasn't them, that people should have mistrusted those proclamations, that they were a "provocation." I often asked the one who seemed more approachable and who looked more like a soldier: "Tell me the truth, you will kill me". Nonetheless, many times, we talked. "Come see a movie on TV," they told me, while a Wahhabi woman, covered from head to foot, hung around the house taking care of me. The abductors seemed a very religious group, constantly praying the Koran verses. But on Friday, at the time of my release, the one who seemed the most religious and who used to wake up at 5 o'clock every morning to pray, "congratulated" me and incredibly shook my hand—it is not a usual behaviour for an Islamic fundamentalist—adding "If you behave, you'll leave soon." That was followed by a rather humorous episode. One of my two guards came to me astonished because the TV showed my photographs displayed in European towns and also on Totti. Yes, Totti (the Rome football team player, T.N.). The guard said he said he was a Rome team fan and he was amazed that his favourite player had taken to field with "Free Giuliana" on his T-shirt. I now live with no more certainties. I find myself deeply weak. I failed in my belief. I had always claimed there was need to go tell about that dirty war. And I had to decide whether to stay in the hotel or going out and chance being abducted because of my work. "We don't want anyone any more," the abductors told me. But I wanted to tell about the bloodbath in Falluja through the refugees' tales. And that morning the refugees and some of their "leaders" didn't listen to me. I had in front of me the evidence of what the Iraqi society has become with the war and they threw their truth in my face: "We don't want anyone. Why don't you stay home? What such interview can be useful for?". The worst collateral damage, the war killing communication, was falling on me. On me, who had risked it all, challenging the Italian government that didn't want reporters gong to Iraq, and the Americans who don't want our work that gives witness to what that country has really turned into with the war, despite what they call elections. Now I wonder. Is their refusal a failure?

Posted by: Joe Longo at March 07, 2005 10:36 AM (sC/iV)

220 Interesting that Sgrena's car was "almost skidding to avoid puddles". She talks about joking about narrowly missing a car crash. And this is the car that is traveling at low speed? Sorry, my car doesn't skid and almost crash when I'm driving slowly. Maybe "Italian slow" is not "Army checkpoint slow".

Posted by: Dorothy Hyden at March 07, 2005 03:54 PM (YekN6)

221 Everyone except Den seems to be blind. The country is at war. You all know that. There are many many facts that you all do NOT know about. Read some history about the Iraqi people. Obviously you could give acrap about slaughter and demonic style governments as long as they don't happen in your back yard. Thats bigotry at its best. But when 911 happened everyone gasps and then soon forget...ho-hum...whatever! Its a person's CHOICE to go over there, and they go. They get beheaded, shot at live in crappy conditions and are subject to car bombs. If your in the WRONG place at the WRONG time and take a Strafing of fire, YOUR to blame. You don't have to be there, there are plenty other jobs that are less deadly. YOU carry your happy ass there. Go, do it... well ?! Why not? EXACTLY.

Posted by: Major_Tom at March 07, 2005 06:05 PM (psM9e)

222 Ahhh, and now we have someone lecturing us on how we feel about slaughter that happens elsewhere. Well, you know what Mr Snippy? People DO actually care more about slaughters that happen in their backyard. Imagine that!! It's called human nature and don't be so friggin naive. I don't know of too many other countries that make it a standing goal that they are willing to bleed for the freedom of others. So don't tell us we don't care. The goverment is "of the people" therefore we do care if our government is freeing people...duh? As far as the rest of your paragraph, I really don't understand what you're going for there. Your either foreign or stupid, possibly both.

Posted by: Major Idiot at March 07, 2005 07:06 PM (KgBCx)

223 Good for you... I am not a usual subscriber to conspiracy theories, but this scenario Jawa lays out makes perfect sense. This woman is a soul sister of that British woman ' journalist ' ....what's her name? ....whose previous life included the resume of " Clown" and now believes herself the true chronicler of events in Iraq.

Posted by: tradewind 111 at March 07, 2005 09:04 PM (6krEN)

224 giulio, I appreciate your comment.

Posted by: Robin Roberts at March 07, 2005 09:35 PM (xauGB)

225 Stupid no-body journalist that have never done nothing worthwhile and go to iraq to fake her kidnapping and put her name on the news. Then of course they run the check point and expect the kids with guns that are all jumpy for justifiable reasons will say to them "please stop... stoooop please... Ms Sgrena beautiful italian with your cindy cratford hairy wart on your upper lip, stop" The woman is enjoying her 15 minutes fame. Doing a victim/ drama queen show. She probably expect an increase in salary and her statue by the torre Pizza. She fake her own kidnapping. We all know that in Iraq, kidnapped women get raped, bitten and then beheaded. Do you guys believe this communist?, that she was freed because her kidnappers saw she worked to withdraw the italian troops from iraq?. HER NOSE IS GROWING LIKE PINOCHIO! Do you guys remember few months ago when margaret Hassan, the British-born head of CARE International's was kidnapped?, that woman did a lot for 25 years for the iraqui people. SHe really did a lot!, and she was raped, beaten, abused and then horrendously murdered. Now tell me that the kidnappers of this idiotic italian communist were "moved" by her journalistic work. It is sickening!

Posted by: Pelagio at March 07, 2005 10:43 PM (q9/MB)

226 You know what? There was really no conspiracy about Sgrena, on either side. This is really the problem: US soldiers are pussies who start firing at the buzz of a fly. Stop sending snot-nosed kids down into war zones, you'll only get them and others (like Calipari, who was a real pro) killed.

Posted by: al at March 08, 2005 09:36 AM (ChMKy)

227 >you'll only get them and others (like Calipari, who was a real pro) killed. If he was such a pro, then how come I have to use the word "was"? My own crazy theory, based on his repeat performances of these obviously phony "negotiated releases" of anti-American terrorist supporters for millions of dollars from non-existent insurgent groups, is that he was in on it, and kept most of the ransom money for his own rogue contingent. Maybe the people in the car knew that if they stopped at the checkpoint, discovery of the unpaid ransom in the car would be their undoing. We'll see what the investigation turns up. Kooky and unsubstantiated? Sure! But it holds a heck of a lot more water than saying these American soldiers are "hair-trigger." That's the comment of a moron. As far as I'm concerned, though, we'd be better off if ALL of our allies would not join us in these wars. Their effort is appreciated, but their presence only becomes a liability and a complication. This is why it was a damn good thing that Bush kept NATO out of the initial Afghan campaign. And that went off a lot more smoothly. P.S. It's time to kick the insurgent-supporting "journalists" out of Iraq. They are in league with murderers.

Posted by: Korla Pundit at March 08, 2005 10:04 AM (l+MMl)

228 Let me re-phrase my thought: Sgrena is no journalist, she writes biast articles for a biast newspaper (probably financed by RC or PCI political parties - Yuk!) Calipari, on the other hand, was a pro. You should look at his personal story. He was a policeman for a long time, in Reggio Calabria (which makes the Bronx look like grade school). He was killed by some snot-nosed kid with a gun in his hand. It is unacceptable that the US send it's frustrated youth to get some kicks at the expense of some poor bastards (Bulgarian, Iraqi, Italian alike). Oh, one more thing: youguys asked for help. I bet that none of the other nationalities would have gone to Iraqi if they weren't forced to by Bush and renegade mafioso Berlusconi.

Posted by: al at March 08, 2005 10:13 AM (ChMKy)

229 FOR AL Well, al, I feel compelled to say something about what you wrote. How much combat time have you got? Have you ever been fired at? We might have a constructive discussion about the political savvy of American leaders, but this is now beyond the point. Things look different when viewed from behind a Hummvee's door or from your armchair. Yes, maybe you can find young snotty US soldiers, I've met some; but the vast majority of them were highly trained, highly motivated young men and women. Have you ever seen your best friend burn alive inside a Bradley, or have you ever tried to help him hold his own entrails gushing from a belly wound? After a few months of this, you don't treat an approaching car the same way your local traffic cop would. The fact is: some very politically biased minds will never forgive anything that the US do, regardless of common sense.

Posted by: giulio at March 08, 2005 11:04 AM (MIWAC)

230 Hey Jagoff - Capilari was a friggin bagman. All he did was arrange payment of money that would be used to blow those "snot nosed" soldier up once the terrorist received their payoff. F-you and Capilari - they are indirectly responsible for the deaths of future American soldiers. Hero, pro, my ASS!! I guess if arranging payment makes you a hero then my bank has several bona-fide heros no one even makes a big deal about. You are a dumb-ass in the extreme.

Posted by: Al Blows at March 08, 2005 12:14 PM (2ymJe)

231 Al- And another thing - if you think for one second that your 3,000 soldiers in Iraq make a difference and we "needed" your help your hopeless. It is a political cover so that when communists like your whore reporter say that we are unilateral we can say "no - look the Poles and Italians are here too". The Brits are the only ones making a significant contribution, so shove it up your ass.

Posted by: Al Blows at March 08, 2005 12:17 PM (2ymJe)

232 I am italian and I am proud of secret service agent that saved life of a communist that always hated him like her companions that was crying at his funeral. Disgusting!I do not accept italian government policy to pay terrorist for free hostages, millions of euro that will be used to kill american soldiers and iraqi men women and children.I am proud of Fabrizio Quattrocchi.

Posted by: anvarat at March 08, 2005 02:29 PM (YBUFf)

233 "I would reply, almost provoking them: "It's easy to abduct a weak woman like me, why don't you do it to the American officers?" Says it ALL right there. I gave this woman the benefit of the doubt but I have come to the conclusion that she is just a piece of shit. And why would they follow the commands from the abductors not to signal to the U.S??? They're in a car by themselves in U.S controlled areas. I would signal to the Americans IMMEDIATELY.

Posted by: Igor Kazakov at March 08, 2005 03:57 PM (xM3Dg)

234 Well major idiot you confirmed exactly what many moderate Americans who support the war find PATHETIC. This is not about caring "more" about slaughters that are in your own backyard, this is about not caring AT ALL for those that are not. When's the last time Belgium suffered from a massive human rights crisis? When's the last time Italians or Dutch or British experienced on-going NATION-WIDE torture and complete segregation of and favoritism of the people who represented the leaders' religious beliefs (and even the Sunnis were constantly screwed by Hussein). The "it's their society leave them be" excuse is getting out-dated. If the U.S was as apathetic as most of Europe is then the situation in the middle east right now would be COMPLETELY unchanged. And why would it matter? The aforementioned countries would still be nice and dandy. Also, I love the irony of "leave the Iraqis in peace." Really? IS that what they were living in since the 70s? Peace? Read your history books. I really don't care about the non-participants anymore. Let the current Coalition and hopefully the U.N get together and facilitate change where it is needed. It's time we stop pretending like we all live on different fucking planets.

Posted by: Igor Kazakov at March 08, 2005 04:14 PM (xM3Dg)

235 If you have to choose between a conspiracy and a stuff up go for the stuff up every time.

Posted by: Guido at March 08, 2005 05:53 PM (fCGGa)

236 Giulio I posted a similar opinion about her nonsensical claim of being a threat to the American government. Sgrena lacked any international reputation of importance until this "kidnapping" and death of an Italian agent. Now her accusations of "deliberate targeting" have conveniently placed her in the spotlight. Otherwise her return would have not generated much attention beyond a few days. The easiest explanation for this situation appears to point at the "stupid or insane driver causes terrible accident" theory, i.e. speeding car mistaken for terrorist bomber. However, I think someone should investigate the direction and distance of the weapon that killed the agent. If this wasnÂ’t just a bad accident, but instead an actual murder, then investigators should be look for who had the motivation. So then one must ask: Who stood to gain by the death of an Italian secret service agent? Certainly, not the US government. So far, Sgrena and her Communist paper and the kidnappers have been raking in the benefits. So, as an alterative explanation, could Sgrena or one of her kidnappers been responsible? If I may speculate further in this direction; Sgrena has vilified the USA in earlier articles and without providing documentation. She went to Iraq with the express purpose of assisting the very group that kidnapped her. Outside of the suggestion that she could have gained a cut of the ransom money, her political goals for Italy failed despite her kidnappers' demands. So Sgrena was about to return home without the prize. How far would she being willing to go in order to create a world class story, and turn her failing efforts into a victory? Would Sgrena have capable of suggesting to her hosts that killing the agent would allow her to discredit the Americans?

Posted by: Mirramele at March 08, 2005 08:52 PM (hmPkH)

237 The Right bloggers obsession with this story accurately reflects the serious ramifications for the US, if it goes wrong. And, till this point, the careful examination of the Pentagon vs. Sgrena version has focused on what details and accounts are currently available, yet what truths are illuminated will matter little outside this country. However, such reckless, indicting speculation and hysterical accusations manufactured, retracted here, yet already passed on as the truth, will cause more damage than the Right can imagine. This is what the Italians will read as the 'reaction' of the Americans! Their tabloid news media will eat this up - mark my words!

Posted by: Clive Tolson at March 08, 2005 10:07 PM (3iQs9)

238 As far as anyone knows, the driver could have been another cockroach suicide bomber, at times there have been even families including children killed of his whole family at various check points so trusting anyone has led to GI deaths. There is a nation wide propaganda drive to stir up the nation to of course collect big bucks from Bush. They did it after a ski lift accident years ago, accused the U.S. of having drunken pilots flying over Italy. That bimbo broad journalist should be put in jail. She was warned many times not to go in that building where she got kidnapped. In fact, rumors are she already knew her kidnappers, and set up the whole story. Now they are out to put the poor GI's on trial. All kinds of lies are coming out. The bitch's story is as full of holes as the car she was in. But the driver while driving was also on a cell phone talking to someone in Rome, so that means that he could have been easily distracted while claiming to be a hero. :>) The poor secret agent called 007 apparently like anyone else in life, he made a grave mistake in not notifying his General who knew of the action but was not contacted. Apparently while he chatted with the journalist in the back seat, the driver was on the cell phone to Rome, and of course easily distracted. There was initially a report of 4 people in the car, someone must have disappeared because now suddenly, that is disputed, they say there were only three people. Where the hell did the 4th one go?

Posted by: Eric at March 09, 2005 02:44 AM (hlvoT)

239 Is someone out there defending pieces of shit that kidnap pieces of shit for money? The responsibility for this entire fiasco lies on the commie bitch. She went to Iraq to cause trouble. She caused the death of an (apparently) innocent man. America has no fault here. The fault lies with the kidnappers and the woman who intentionally caused the event. Accidents similar to this happen all the time. Sometimes during the commision of a crime innocents get hurt. The responsibility lies on the crooks (kidnappers), not the cops (soldiers). Now pieces of dog shit like this AL call our young soldiers snot nosed kids and pussies. How pussy were they when they kicked the shit out of the Italian army 60 years ago? Half the time you sissies wouldn't even fight back. Short memory? We are the same people that liberated your people.

Posted by: greyrooster at March 09, 2005 03:40 AM (CBNGy)

240 You guys really don't get it. It's not about needing or not needing the military help of Italians, or Polish, or Dutch. The aforementioned European countries are there because your president asked them to. One more thing: this war is being fought (and Americans, Italians and Iraqis are being killed) to keep the standard of living of you pussies high enough so you'll vote your monkey president again. This is NOT an attempt to export democracy, as you would gladly think. As far as wars, I've seen my share. I was in Congo during the revolt in the 90's (still ongoing). Four million dead in 4 years (I think that's a record) so don't lecture me. How many wars have you actually seen (with your own eyes, not on CNN). So if you think that the war was waged to oust Saddam and save the Iraqis, think again. There are hundreds of places in the world that are being ignored because they are not strategic enough (economically) for the US. Don't be children. We all know why wars are fought. Al.

Posted by: al at March 09, 2005 03:58 AM (ChMKy)

241 Oh, and, grey roostie, May I remind you that after you disembarked in Sicily 60 years ago, we were the ones to invade your ass, seen as your administration is now mafia-ridden more-so than ours. So why don't you stuff it. Al.

Posted by: al at March 09, 2005 04:01 AM (ChMKy)

242 Don't anyone get me wrong. I think that Sgrena's words of "conspiracy" are absurd. She's just using what happened to carry on her own absurd campaign against the US. Al.

Posted by: al at March 09, 2005 04:07 AM (ChMKy)

243 AL: True enough. We got the best of your country. Isn't that always the case. JEALOUS or can't get a green card?

Posted by: greyrooster at March 09, 2005 06:30 AM (CBNGy)

244 AL: and why would we wish to fight a war in some place that doesn't have any strategic meaning for us? Personally, I believe people like you are mentally handicapped by the gnawing feeling that we once kicked your asses. Searching for something that will relieve that inferior feeling. IT WON'T HAPPEN: Because our soldiers are not pussy. As to knowing about war. I served in Viet Nam. My uncle Albert was killed in Korea. Mr father was killed when I was 2 years old by the Japs. My son, a marine, is presently in Iraq. My wife will retire in 2 months, after 30 years in the Coast Guard. You should have stayed in the Congo. You know, Birds of a feather.

Posted by: greyrooster at March 09, 2005 06:48 AM (CBNGy)

245 Your soldiers ARE pussies. They can only fight against poor Arab derelicts armed with slingshots. Don't kid yourself, you didn't free anyone during WWII. You were just another damn invader (perhaps you should read how you pricks murdered hundreds of Italian farmers who already thought that the war was over. Maybe you like to wave your gun around so much for lack of something else. Al.

Posted by: al at March 09, 2005 09:52 AM (ChMKy)

246 Hey Jagoff Al, I would be interested in seeing proof of how Americans killed "hundreds" of Italian farmers. They probably shit themselves to death when they saw what a real army was like, but I don't believe this ever happened. As far as us only fighting "kids with slingshots" you obviously never were in the Congo you lying POS. Cause I'll bet these "kids with slingshots" (financed by the Syrians, Iranians, and Baathist holdouts) have some weapons that would make the spears used against you in the Congo look like, well,....spears. Numbnuts. We are the best country and army in the world, it pains you, I know. But look, get rid of communists like that "hostage" bitch, take a bath and clean the grease off, quit taking 4 hour lunches and dinners until midnight and maybe you too can go kick some ass. Until then I think I speak for everyone if you would just shut the hell up and maybe whisper in gratitude a "thank-you" to America for sacrificing her youth because Europe is too pussy to do so....and don't tell me about your 3,000 troops. And yes, the President asked the Italians, Poles, etc what the hell's your point? I guess your point must be that you are such great friends of the US, and you know what yes - your Prime Minister is, but don't go looking for sympathy around here because your PM went against people like you to do the right thing and change a civilization bent on destruction while the rest of your ivory-tower mates in the EU looked on and derided the "cowboy" President Bush. That "cowboys" actions have resulted in great things happening in the Middle East at a pace unheard of in history. It hurts when a chimp, as you call him, has more brains then yourself, doesn't it. That "cowboy" has changed the world for the better, and pussies like you will reap the rewards and probably lie to your grandkids about how you "fought" in the Congo AND Iraq. Fought in the Congo, what a joke....

Posted by: Al Blows at March 09, 2005 09:37 PM (RmwvT)

247 GOD WILL SAVE US! (but we will be so bored by cons like you ) http://treepie.sf.net

Posted by: Treepie.sf.net at March 10, 2005 12:51 AM (4rkMo)

248 The Congo (Zaire - now RDC), is a place where 14-year old kids are running around with Chinese made Kalashnikovs given to them by the government, whom in turn was supplied by the US (in an attempt to oust the now-departed Mobutu and replace him with Kabila, who was readily killed by his own son's followers). Now the country is completely fucked over, but I don't hear anyone saying: "let's go to Congo and bring some democracy there". Why not? Al.

Posted by: al at March 10, 2005 04:29 AM (ChMKy)

249 Because assface - no one from f'd up African nations is blowing up NYC. However, there is no disagreement that while not all Arabs are terrorist, most terrorists are Arab. Ergo, we clean up that cesspool first. Jerk. By the way Mr Congo/Zaire expert, why don't you get some real learnin' on and find out the MAIN suppliers of weapons. Gee, last I checked the US didn't produce Kalishnikovs. And gee, looks like at the top of the list is....oh my gosh, France and Russia, arms whores to the world. So take your America bashing back to uneducated people in Europe that shit ain't flying here numbnuts.

Posted by: Al Blows at March 10, 2005 05:13 PM (RmwvT)

250 Well, actually the Kalashnikovs in Congo were SUPPLIED by the US, I never said they were PRODUCED by the US. And although the intentions may have been good, presently those weapons are just adding to the killing. I agree with you that terrorists should be wiped away and I am not America-bashing, but I think that you should be more critical about your own before you criticize others. One more thing. What makes you think I'm not American? Al.

Posted by: al at March 11, 2005 07:57 AM (ChMKy)

251 Also, I read Sgrena's new version of what happened and it seems to me like her versions keep changing from one day to the next. I also read that she was kidnapped after standing around a mosk for almost 4 hours. So I was wrong and you were right there, she seemed to be looking for it. Anyways, I believe that the patrols in Baghdad, (carried out by 3rd infantry - correct me if I'm wrong) should be handed over to divisions with more experience and cold blood. Al.

Posted by: Al at March 11, 2005 08:02 AM (ChMKy)

252 "Oh, and one more thing - you guys asked for help" - That's what makes me think your not American genius, among other snippets like "we invaded your ass....w/mafioso" (paraphrasing). So there you go. Either you are American initially pretending not to be, or your not, either way I had good reason to think you weren't. Especially when you add in anti-American gibberish that sounds oh-so-European (although that is getting harder to distinguish from mainstream democrat gibberish). But I got to say I'll give you your dues for your last post admitting some mistakes. Most people cannot/will not do this and it sometimes reminds me of the reality police shows where the suspect denies doing something that he does right in front of the cops and looks foolish, so kudos for you, and sorry about the rough language, I'm a news junkie and just get overwhelmed by the depth of unthinking anti-Americanism. No problem if there is good reason, but it seems like many people bend anything story they can to damage America. It gets frustrating.

Posted by: Al Blows at March 12, 2005 02:33 PM (0y+ms)

253 I was born in Italy. I moved to Congo when I was 6. Moved to NYC when I was 17. Back to Italy around 25 and soon moving. I've been in American schools since 4th grade and went to an American University. You decide what I am, it really doesn't make a difference for me. Anyways, what do you think of the whole Syria deal. At first I thought that Syrians should defenetly be kicked out of Lebanon to free the country. Then a girl I know from Beirut told me that most people there want the Syrians to stay because they feel protected by them (this is also supported by last week's mass demonstration in favor of Hizbollah. It's actually quite confusing. Al.

Posted by: Al at March 14, 2005 03:45 AM (ChMKy)

254 RE: Syria. People love security, and in a country that saw many years of chaos this pull to go the "safe" route must be strong. However, and this is a beat-up cliche but fits so many situations - as one of our forefathers said - "those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither". If the Lebanese can't ensure their own country's security maybe Syria should just annex it.

Posted by: Al Blows at March 14, 2005 05:16 PM (VZV9e)

255 See this

Posted by: Biggy at March 17, 2005 06:10 PM (CbR96)

256 Hey Fredo, Remember one thing if not for the Americans in WWII you probably would have never left Italy to come to the best place on Earth NYC,and you would not be writing in English you would be writing in GERMAN............Duh oh yeah if you are a Catholic you would have been burnt like a well pizza ya vol

Posted by: Al Blows2 at March 17, 2005 08:04 PM (I4wCe)

257 Hey you faggot, If it weren't for us you probably would never exist at all, so don't start going back to the past, because if your merits go back 50 years, ours go back at least 2000 years. So why don't you shut your ignorant trap, you idiot. Al

Posted by: al at March 18, 2005 06:04 AM (ChMKy)

258 Thanks, for the article, I beleive US or Italian governments should publicly prosecute Giuliana Sgrena and once for all show the world her treasonous affairs with the terrorists.

Posted by: Great at March 19, 2005 07:07 PM (au7Fb)

259 Yeah, I know... If she is communist she is laying... that's the freedom you have there, you are free, free not to be communist because they are evil... it's so sad. We're sick of USA army attacking all over the world and killing journalists just because they want to control everything that can be said about your wars. Giulana is the last one, but there have been more cases of USA troops murdering journalists like Jose Couso (when they attacked the journalists hotel in Iraq) the same day that they attacked 2 journalists buildings, the same day they entered Bagdad... They lost vietnam war because the whole world could see the brutailties being done there, using napalm, orange agent or cutting people ears to make necklaces. Where are the mass destruction weapons? This was is based in lies, just for oil, I'm so sorry you can't see it... your soldiers are paying the price of your government's avarice, but also people in iraq are suffering it. Greetings from Spain.

Posted by: Attanar at March 22, 2005 03:15 PM (T7ziU)

260 What a bunch of rediculous comments. SAFU describes what happened. An American patrol shines a bright light at an unidentified car (to that patrol), the driver is confused by the light and slows down but the somebody on patrol panics and starts shooting. A very upset reporter who thought that her convoy had clearance to go to the airport claims that the shooting wasn't accidental. From my reading of left wing web sites this happens quite a bit. Can't really balm the soldiers, they are always in danger of being blown up and not all check points are as obvious as they should be.

Posted by: Qzada at March 26, 2005 12:56 AM (yVXTt)

261 April, 29, 2005. The truth finally has come out, all contrary to that lying Sgrena journalist who said that they were doing 40 kph, instead now either real satellite photos or facsimile reproduced computer analysis, the outcome results that the car was doing 96 kph, and that at about 137 yards the car was warned to stop by bright lights, but no shooting took place directly at the vehicle until it was about 40 yards away, by then it took just 3 seconds between those two times. Now that makes more sense, since when did you ever hear of an Italian driving at only 40kph especially on a wide open road with no traffic. Wonder now what she will say to the widow of Mr. Calipari and his children. Wonder now if the Italian government has the guts to put this lier conniving communists on trail for all the problems she caused, also, almost for sure, a ransom of several million dollars was given for her release. This is the same woman who was so grateful to American GI's who literally protected her while she lived in the hotel in Baghdad, yet she would still wander around taking pictures of so called atrocities that she accused American of doing.

Posted by: Vicktor at April 29, 2005 11:10 AM (AVAfo)

262 Sgrena is a scrofa - the lying bitch who got her government to pay a ransom so her buddies could buy weapons and kill more americans sickens me. She is unrepentently anti-american and revels in the trouble she has caused Berlusconi. Though she insured it wouldn't happen before she staged her "kidnapping", Im just sorry she came back in one piece versus the two those untrustworthy jihadists promised.....I hope she burns in hell. My condolences to the Calipari family - a good man lost for the sake of a horribly bad woman.

Posted by: Marvin Ellis at May 06, 2005 03:59 PM (DjW5R)

263 What a load of utter rubbish. That woman was put through an horrific ordeal, and just as far-fetched as it is that US soldiers deliberately tried to kill her, it's totally nuts to imply that she staged her own kidnapping! Come on! Why would she do that to her partner of 25 years, Pier who was distraught? Why would she put that poor man through all that? An example that goes a little way to prove that she didn't stage it. During the whole "Liberate Guiliana" campaign that was going on in Italy, a famous Italian footballer, Francesco Totti went onto the pitch wearing that slogan on a T-shirt. After her captors saw this on TV (one was an avid AS Roma supporter) they were more inclined to release her and even told her to thank Totti. If her kidnap was staged it would mean that Totti would have had to be in on it as well or at least that she knew in advance that he was going to come out wearing this shirt. It's bloody typical of you Americans - if it's not your way it's the high way. Who gave you the right to impose a "democracy" which by the way is a pretty laughable idea when you look at the "election" and the fact that the new premier just happens to be, according to a Washington official’s assessment of Jaafari: “He is our boy, not Iran’s.” Something tells me the man-on-the-street in Baghdad would be loath to vote for a Washington Yes man. I know I would! Sure you deposed Saddam, woopedy-f**kin'-do, don't you think it's time you slung your hooks out of there? But no, I forgot: far too much oil money to be made and to make sure you've got your hands firmly on that oil supply! You Americans make me sick. Then people who simply want to defend what little national pride they have left and fight (I'll say nothing of the al-Qaeda elements) are branded "terrorists?" Under that logic doesn't that make George Washington, Paul Revere etc. terrorists and "insurgents" also? I suppose this view will make me a "Leftist." As if I give a monkey's what you have to say about my views. "Oh we're America, we can do no wrong" please... It makes me laugh when everyone was so shocked when 9/11 happened. You had it coming in all fairness just for being arrogant twats. Yes America IS the bad guy (especially when you elect a gormless moronic twit as your President, not just once but TWICE!), you're all just too damned indoctrinated to see it. Leave this woman alone and admit when you're wrong sometimes. Maybe the driver of her car was driving a little too fast and needed to pay more attention, but maybe those National Guardsmen at the checkpoint didn't have to be so trigger-happy. Alastair, Ireland.

Posted by: Alastair at July 04, 2005 11:02 PM (bmfSx)

264 Marvin's right, Sgrena is a scrofa - the bitch's evil plan went awry. We had 9/11 coming? Nice - real nice. I suppose in your world, London did too...Have a nice day as the Americans say and scream if you wanna be a bastard...Hey, isn't Ireland in England?

Posted by: Spandy Packard at July 08, 2005 02:11 PM (DmTUS)

265 i want to know the location of people live in uk there last name that bear Tiago with full email address where they live

Posted by: jim at October 11, 2005 05:47 PM (C6N0n)

Hide Comments | Add Comment

Giuliana Sgrena, the female Italian hostage held in Iraq since Feb. 4th, has been freed. The Communist daily Il Manifesto has reported that the Italian secret-service had notified them of their employee's release. Update: Sgrena was wounded as her driver sped toward a US checkpoint near the Baghdad airport. Do not believe MSM reports on this as they are all being fed information through the Communist Il Manifesto.

Sgrena's vehicle was warned to stop but continued speeding toward a US checkpoint on a road which has been the scene of frequent terrorist attacks. US soldiers signaled for the car to stop, flashed lights at it, and then fired warning shots at the vehicle before opening fire on the car. The troops then shot the car's engine block, not the passengers. The car spun out of control. It was the car accident which killed one occupant and wounded Sgrena. UPDATE: Apprently Sgena did suffer a shrapenal wound, but this is consistent with the soldier's version of the story that the engine block was shot which would cause metal debris.
-----
Reuters reports that an Italian Foreign Ministry spokesperson says, "I can confirm it 100 percent. She should board a plane in the coming hours and should be back in Rome later tonight."

Scroll down for updates and world reaction....(Update: be sure to scroll down and see DU reaction--Eason Jordan vindicated!)

The Jawa Report has been assuring readers from the beginning that Sgrena would be releaed unharmed. Sgrena was an anti-American reporter in Iraq to bolster the terrorist insurgency. She was abducted while interviewing refugees from the battle of Fallujah who were camped outside a Sunni mosque near Baghdad University. Il Manifesto has reported in the past that Sgrena was close to radical anti-occupation clerics. Update: Not that we're questioning the timing (as Ace implies) but Chad Evans just e-mailed me noting that Sgrena had been released exactly one month after being captured.

Update: Leftist media already blaming US of interfering with hostage release, as if stopping at US checkpoint was more dangerous than, say, her time with the alleged terrorists. London Times:

Ms Sgrena was wounded when US troops opened fire on a convoy carrying her to safety, and an Italian negotiator who help negotiate her release was killed, her newspaper Il Manifesto said.

UPDATE: "I've driven that road to [Baghdad International Airport] many times and everyone knows that Big Army does not tolerate being ridden up on suddenly or at a high rate of speed." *

AP:

"Multinational forces fired on a vehicle that was approaching a coalition checkpoint in Baghdad at a high rate of speed," Defense Department spokesman Bryan Whitman told reporters.

"The recently freed Italian journalist was an occupant in the vehicle and was apparently injured. Though details are unclear at this point, it appears that a second person in the automobile was killed," Whitman added.

The incident is under investigation, he said.

In Rome, Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi called on the United States to explain how U.S. forces in Iraq (news - web sites) had killed an Italian agent and someone had to take responsibility for the shooting.

Another VERY CRITICAL Update within an UPDATE 3:57 P.M: The early reports left out some very critical information out of the military press release:

U.S. troops "attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car," the statement said. "When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block, which stopped the vehicle, killing one and wounding two others."

Developing......updates are continious. more...

Posted by: Rusty at 05:12 PM | Comments (75) | Add Comment
Post contains 1431 words, total size 11 kb.

NK in LA Times: We are human and we need to be roved, just like everybody else does. Kevin McCullough fisks the article in the WND here.

By the way, Kevin, I hear that Barbara Demick wrote the story because she didn't want to end up like Hans Brix.

For another perspective on the situation in North Korea here is what the traitor Charles Jenkins has to say about the ronery dictator of the country he defected to 40 years ago:

“I believe Kim Jong Il is an evil person. He is exploiting and oppressing the (North Korean) people,” Jenkins answered the reporters who asked him what he thought.

Jenkins was an American soldier stationed in South Korea, Compound 8, but crossed the Demilitarized Zone into North Korea for fear of being sent to the Vietnam during the war, in January 5, 1965. However, he lived in misery ever since. With three other American soldiers who defected to North Korea, he survived torture and hunger and was obliged to study about Kim Il Sung [the former dictator] ten hours per day. He was expelled from Pyongyang for secretly listening to BBC broadcasts by changing the fixed radio stations, and got into trouble by requesting defection to the Soviet Embassy in Pyongyang. One time, a North Korean doctor cut out his skin on his shoulder where he had a tattoo that read, “U.S. Army” without anesthesia.

Posted by: Rusty at 05:07 PM | No Comments | Add Comment
Post contains 261 words, total size 2 kb.

When the bombs finally start falling on al Jazeera, will Eason Jordan blame the US for Lindsey Oliver's death? Al Reuters reports that al Jazeera has picked up ideological ally and former head of MSNBC Europe, Lindsey Oliver, to head up the terrorist networks new English language channel.

Former executive at ITN Nick Walshe is also set to work for the new channel. Yes, that's the same ITN that many PBS news affiliates regularly run feed from.

For their part, al Jazeera had this to say:

"Together we will work to bring the English-speaking world an alternative voice in news and to provide both a regional voice and a global perspective to a potential world audience of over one billion English speakers."

It's good to see so many British citizens collaborating in the planned death of their own civilization by fascists in the Islamic world.

Posted by: Rusty at 04:47 PM | Comments (1) | Add Comment
Post contains 178 words, total size 2 kb.

Syrian President Bessar Asad will address the Syrian National Assembly tomorrow and announce plans to withdraw troops from Lebanon in the speech scheduled in Damascus tomorrow afternoon.

The AP, however, reports that insiders say that the Baathist dictator will announce a partial withdrawal only. more...

Posted by: Rusty at 09:00 AM | No Comments | Add Comment
Post contains 358 words, total size 2 kb.

UPDATE: A second arrest has been made. Newsday:

Two people have been arrested in the murder of an Egyptian Christian family, authorities said Friday.

The suspects were to be arraigned Friday afternoon in state Superior Court. The Hudson County prosecutor's office would not release the identities of those arrested or the charges they face until they appear in court.

According to two sources very close to the investigation, the FBI has picked up a suspect they believe my have some ties to the murders of a Coptic Christian family in Jersey City.

The man in custody is a former tenant of the family's home and evidence was still being removed from the home as we arrived on the scene this afternoon.

According to our source the possible suspect was picked up this morning on Charles Street and is now being interrogated by the FBI at a location in Jersey City. Our source tells us that the man in custody is providing detailed information in the case although he claims he is not responsible for the murders....

But now the motive appears to be robbery. A big break came when authorities discovered that Armonious' ATM card had been used at several locations after the murder, and authorities got a picture of the suspect and his automobile.

Detectives picked up the man, identified by a relative as Edward McDonald, 25, after reviewing surveillance videos from ATMS in Jersey City and Manhattan, WABC-TV and WNBC-TV reported.

The ex-con was providing detailed information about the case but claimed a second man was responsible for the horrific slaying of the devout Coptic Christian family, WABC said.

However much I would like to think that, a number of reports indicate that the FBI and local police would like to think the same thing. In fact, various reports in the past have indicated that local police were ignoring the hate-crime angle altogether. Are the police ignoring the facts? more...

Posted by: Rusty at 08:44 AM | Comments (1) | Add Comment
Post contains 726 words, total size 5 kb.

International ANSWER, the Marxist organization that masks its anti-American and pro-terrorist philosophies in the guise of being anti-Iraq war, will mark the second anniversary of the liberation of Iraq on March 19. Rep. Maurice "KKKarl Rove used Jeff Gannon to get Dan Rather fired" Hinchey (D-NY) is set to be the featured speaker at a rally near the SUNY New Paltz campus.

The Confederate Yankee all over this like dKos on gay Republicans.

You still think International ANSWER's real objection to the Iraq liberation campaign is that it was illegal and unilateral? Notice the day they were formed:

"The A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition formed on September 14, 2001."

That's right, three days after 9-11.

If you are dumb enough to believe their rhetoric, you're dumb enough to---well, you're just plain dumb!

Posted by: Rusty at 08:14 AM | Comments (6) | Add Comment
Post contains 149 words, total size 1 kb.

The US State Department reacted to news that Abu Bakar Bashir (Ba'asyir), the mastermind of the Bali nightclub bombing, was to receive a maximum sentence of 2.5 years (that's 30 months, or 900 days, or roughly 4.5 days for each of the 202 murdered victims). The phrases used by the State Department to describe the sentence: disappointed, not commensurate, disturbed, cause for concern.

As always, the US State Department is at the forefront of condemning jihadi mass murderers in the strongest possible terms. Bashir was heard to exclaim at the news of the disturbing sentence:

I'm being oppressed by people from abroad and at home. They consider Islamic law to be a shackle and are slaves to immoral behavior. Allah, open their hearts or destroy them!"

Posted by: Rusty at 05:03 PM | Comments (7) | Add Comment
Post contains 732 words, total size 5 kb.

Al Qaeda has a new internet based magazine, one that is sure to give Martha Stewart's Living a run for its money. Guardian:

A new online magazine purportedly posted by al-Qaida's affiliate in Iraq has launched an effort to recruit Muslims to rid Iraq of infidels and apostates [eg]...Americans and their Iraqi partners.

The colorful, well-designed magazine is named Zurwat al-Sanam, Arabic for ``The Tip of the Camel's Hump'' - a reference among Islamic militants to ``the epitome of belief and virtuous activity.''

Washington-based counterterrorism expert Evan Kohlmann told The Associated Press the magazine aims at ``conveying the sense that the organization is professional, capable and really understands what they're doing.''

It was designed as ``an attempt to refute the idea that al-Zarqawi and these people are desperate. ... It shows that these people have time on their hands and don't have to worry about mobility.''

SITE adds this about the internet porno-mag for the death-cultist camel-humping jihadis:

“This is a loud cry,” it explains, “written by young writers to keep Allah’s words, which we share with our sword-carrying brothers, about what Allah gave us about wisdom and guidance in the Qur’an, the Sunnah, and understanding the Sahaba and their followers [so we may] pledge to people [entrance] to the Garden of Eden.”

Repeating the importance of the sword in the religion of Islam, the authors go on to state that “our call is to make the word of Allah the highest, and the Sharia will rule the East and West of the Earth, to wipe out unbelievers wherever they are and in any form.”

Dear Imam Achmed,

Is it harem for Brad Pitt to divorce Jennifer Annistons (sic)?

Signed,
Pop-shahid in Yemen

Dear Pop-shahid in Yemen,

It is harem as long as Brad says I divorce thee three times, but it is not recommended.

I would also recommend that you spend less time worrying about the infidels in Zionist controlled Hollywood and come to Iraq to cut the heads off the Zionist-Crusader forces. If you can get Brad Pitt to come then Allah assures he will have 72 virgins--each more beautiful than that whore Jennifer Aniston--in paradise.

Allahu-akhbar,
Imam Achmed

Posted by: Rusty at 04:25 PM | Comments (2) | Add Comment
Post contains 465 words, total size 4 kb.

Let's send these guys. If they die in the process, no big.

Posted by: Rusty at 03:41 PM | Comments (3) | Add Comment
Post contains 30 words, total size 1 kb.

Novinite:

In his speech on the 28th anniversary of the establishment of the Libyan Jamahiriyah (popular republic), Qaddafi described the United States, Britain and Italy as dictatorships, which should learn “genuine democracy” in Libya.

Hat tip: Chad Evans

UPDATE: Jeff at Beautiful Attrocities notes some of Qaddafi's other brilliant statements.

Posted by: Rusty at 03:32 PM | Comments (1) | Add Comment
Post contains 84 words, total size 1 kb.

....have been greatly exaggerated! The Blogger Death Pool is up. Apparently I will die playing with my own lightsaber. Can I just say in my defense, it is a big lightsaber. Not Gannon big, but big.

Posted by: Rusty at 03:26 PM | No Comments | Add Comment
Post contains 44 words, total size 1 kb.

It doesn't have Brad Pitt, but it does have a lot of homo-erotic subtexts. An interview with Jeff Gannon.

Posted by: Rusty at 01:59 PM | No Comments | Add Comment
Post contains 27 words, total size 1 kb.

The anonymous Freeway Blogger celebrates the liberation of Iraq and Afghanistan, it's spill-over affects into Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Palestine, and the complete paradigm shift uderway in the entire Middle East by mocking the 1,500 brave soldiers who died in that effort.

Examples of his signs:

...more evidence the real objection to the war in Iraq is that the Left thinks all war is bad. more...

Posted by: Rusty at 12:38 PM | Comments (10) | Add Comment
Post contains 254 words, total size 3 kb.

1 This is why I don't visit the leftosphere. The effects of the blinding rage on my blood pressure can't be good for my health. Thanks for doing the dirty work so that I don't have to sully my browser with their vomitous (sorry!) bilge.

Posted by: Preston Taylor Holmes at March 03, 2005 12:55 PM (WsZ4F)

2 Hello Dr. Shackleford, Looks like the LLL media elite got together in the backroom and decided to allow a slight, grudging change of tone by admitting there are some positive aspects about the uses of the US Military, and perhaps, that a new wind is blowing in the Middle East. However, read the Guardian article, and be reassured that they haven't changed their true nature. A Force for Good, by Robert Kaplan/NYT http://www.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/03/opinion/03kaplan.html&OP=20bcd540/eqQ26We8Q5C)YwQ5CQ5CbTeTaaKeaUeaUeQ5CBQ3EQ3FQ3EQ5CQ3FeaU0rBCrQ3F7RbQ2B NYT "The global war on terrorism has made the military far more effective at performing humanitarian deeds." and also You're going to love this one. Only the Guardian would make an attempt to credit Osama bin Laden with starting a democratic revolution in the Middle East. The Guardian announces Osama started the The Cedar Revolution: http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1429001,00.html The Guardian: "Has Osama bin Laden started a democratic revolution in the Middle East? One of very few universally valid laws of history is the law of unintended consequences. The effects of what men and women do are rarely those they intend, and sometimes they are the exact opposite. If that happens here, it would be hard to imagine a nicer illustration of the law." They apparently really believe that the world is quite that stupid

Posted by: Ariana at March 03, 2005 01:26 PM (Z+LC9)

3 A-freaking-amazing.

Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at March 03, 2005 01:51 PM (JQjhA)

4 The usial antiamerican bunch of low life scum why dont they go live in cuba im sure that castro would love these no good scum

Posted by: sandpiper at March 03, 2005 01:53 PM (kxat+)

5 Maybe, just maybe, if terrorists would only butcher liberals maybe then they would want to fight back.

Posted by: Lovetobuggertheleft at March 03, 2005 02:11 PM (yBHNA)

6 No, if terrorists would only butcher liberals there would be no need to fight back

Posted by: joey at March 03, 2005 02:51 PM (+7Usq)

7 Cowardly is saying you care about human rights and ending oppression while you watch innocent people being brutalized by tyrants and remain silent. You care more about seeing Bush and your country fail than freeing oppressed people and making the world a safer place. Try evading AAA fire and SAMs or being held as a POW in the Hanoi Hilton for about seven years or so before you talk about bombing being cowardly. Step away from the Kool-Aid kids and get a fricking clue! Oh yeah Free Tibet! But everyplace else oh well, we are to blame. More Kool-Aid please!

Posted by: bags75 at March 04, 2005 08:37 AM (G1JLb)

8 I prefer Tang

Posted by: Night Weasel at March 04, 2005 09:58 AM (tkj+t)

9 Right wing Cowards, sit back here in the States, while the rest of us fight your war. If your for the War join up you sniffling COWARDS

Posted by: Been their at March 29, 2005 12:47 AM (EEqmd)

10 119 dath row inmates now free nationwide because they were found out to be innocenct and the crisis is growing please checkout www.innocenceproject.org thank you for your time

Posted by: greg walden at June 01, 2005 03:48 PM (8D1Qh)

Hide Comments | Add Comment