1 Rest in peace Ronald Alan Schulz.

2 A brave man, who died at the hands of cowards. Rest in peace.

3 Although I had only met Ron once, (when I was married to his cousin Brad Schulz from Colorado) I remember him as a warm, caring person. He is in my thoughts and prayers. God Bless his family...my heart goes out to you all.

1 Somewhere in all of the Middle East there have got to be Muslims willing to be mercenary mosque-stormers. We've got a base in Bahrain, a country with a downtrodden Shiite underclass that amounts to 75% of the population, many of whom would love to blast on some Sunnis for a few dinars. We need a foreign legion for this sort of thing.

2 Muslims are completely undependable, as treachery is considered a high art in muslim countries.

3 Below is a speech given by Sheikh Harith Sulayman al-Dari - secretary general of the Association of Muslim Scholars, imam of the Umm al-Qura mosque and arguably Iraq's most influential Sunni cleric - in Fallujah in March, 2004. Qatar: Al-Jazirah Satellite Channel Television in Arabic 1505 GMT 19 Mar 04 [Announcer-read report over video] Dr Harith al-Dari, secretary general of the Iraqi Muslim Ulema Council, has called for the continuation of all forms of resistance against the occupation until the liberation of Iraq. This came in a speech following a mass prayer in Al-Fallujah city. [Begin Al-Dari recording] We hope that resistance, with all forms and directions, will escalate in the next year, the year of liberation, with the help and grace of God. Your brothers in all of Iraq now know that the occupation has not come for the sake of anybody or in order to help any side against the other side. Rather, it came to achieve its own ambitions and schemes. The occupation intends to stay in our country and even set up military bases, as propagated by the occupation and its agents, who know that their existence is contingent on that of the occupation. I hope that your resistance will escalate through words, actions, prayers, demonstrations, protests, and other forms. I also hope that all our brothers in the homeland will wake up and rise up to join their brothers in resisting the occupying to expedite its departure, God willing. [end recording] [Video shows Al-Dari addressing worshippers] Shaykh Al-Dari's speech was delivered just eleven days prior to the murder and mutilation of the Blackwater security contractors.

1 Who gives a shit about their stupid f'ing religion! If they are doing anything terroristy in a mosque, it is fair game. Bomb the place. At this point, is there really any hope of mending the schism between the west and Islamofascism anyway? NO! So let loose the tomahawks and to hell with those hadjis. If their religion was so sacred, they wouldn't use the mosques as rallying points for insurgents and IEDs anyway. Violence is the only thing these people understand, so lets oblige them. Enough pussyfooting around; we need to take lessons from the Israelis and simply brutalize these people. Beat them into submission. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am so f'ing sick of these people kidnapping and killing noncombatants, planting roadside bombs and all manner of other cowardly shit, staging all of it from mosques, and then becoming outraged when these same mosques are targeted for raids. Are IQs just lower in that part of the world? It is the same logic that makes them think it is their duty to come to America to destroy buildings, which is cool, but the thought of an infidel in the holy land is cause enough do do what? Come to America and destroy buildings. Beheading someone in the name if Islam is cool, but conducting a search of a mosque is a inconsolable outrage. Enough is enough. Fuck their religion and fuck respecting their religion. Nuke them until they glow and then shoot them in the dark. Thats my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

2 As I have said, these people deserve neither compassion, sympathy, OR respect. They have no problem with killing any of us, our women, or even children. Nothing is off limits to them. NO apologies, NO symapthy. They hate us and our way of life, it's that simple. They hate that we have a system that, while not perfect, enables to live far better than their rat-like existences. They hate that our ideals enables us to have choices in life while they remain dominated and ruled by a backward set of beliefs under threats of losing their heads. THEY CAN'T STAND IT These people cannot be fixed or reasoned with in any sense. They will never have peace, they would not know how, nor are they willing to learn! War and death are all they know or understand. I am all for getting this problem under control in any manner necessary so that the rest of us can live peaceably.

1 He will now of course be accused of being a Jew, stripped of his citizenship, and exiled to Devil's Island.

2 This is proof that not all French people are assholes.

1 Omigod, this reads like one of those spy novels I've never read. Too bad the Germans can't be trusted, and Osthoff is such a crazy freak. http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,392690,00.html This would be a story worth exploring if it involved less loathsome characters.

2 i think she and the bnd are AIDING zarqawi. like schroeder aiding putin.

3 That answers a few questions.

4 What would a German Intelligence operative be doing in Iraq? And more important, what would she be doing arranging high-level meetings with AQ operatives?

5 Bluto - you got to follow up on this one - it is down right weird - and leaves a lot more questions than answers.

6 I also have a well informed source!

7 This is one weird story. This gal has a very tenuous grip on reality. She said that her abductors were affiliated with al Qaeda, then she said they have nothing to do with terror groups and were just "poor people". She gives an interview with al Jazeera speaking only english, yet is fluent in Arabic. She wears something to conceal her face "to protect her identity" yet her picture has been plastered all over the media. Says her daughter "is her life", yet makes no attempt to contact her for weeks. Her sister tried to organize a march in Germany for her release, but no one would join her. Ooookay.

8 Wakey, Wakey, America! Before dissinÂ’ the rest of the world. Remember, us Europeans don't elect YOUR President or determine YOUR Foreign Policy. We have to accept your countries actions, BUT it works both ways. The German people and therefore government took the stance that they were against the Iraq campaign. The near total intransigence against the TWAT means they have soldiers in Afghanistan (and have suffered KIA) and they supported the EU taker of Bosnia/Kosovo from NATO so that the UK and US had enough troops to go to Iraq. As a Brit the notion of paying Kidnappers is wrong, and if true does not help matters. As for Ali Hamadi, your governmentÂ’s policy on GTMO and the Death Penalty as well as the German Constitution prevented him being legally extradited to the US. Nuff Said.

9 When the jihadists are kicking Euroweenie ass, just don't call on us to save you, that's all I ask, jailor.

10 As I've said before, the Germans are nothing but a bunch of goddamned unreconstructed Nazi's, and are actively aiding our enemies. We should invade once again and kill every last one of them this time.

11 Jerusalem Joe, is that like the Jailor and 40,000 of his mates helping the US in Iraq. 5000 Germans in Afganistan?Kosovo, the Dutch, Danes, Norweigens, in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc etc Have you served your country? Have you done a tour of Iraq? Do you know anything about the German or UK or European constitution. Stupid ignorant immature responses like yours alienate the US from the rest of the world lose you freind and allies and support the myths proported by the Jihadists. I am not a dual citizen yet but I may be one day. My wife and Son are US citizens, I am serving Officer in the Royal Air Forces. I have done overseas tours in support of OEF and OIF. Grow up. jon.dennis@fbigs.mod.uk

12 Jailor, nobody cares what you or any other neuterd eurotard liberal-socialist moron has to say. You are irrelevant, so fuck off and let the last real men save the world.

1 Cue the tearful hostage Video. Those AQ "Lions of Allah" are some real tough guys when they point weapons at women and make them beg. I know that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi claimed he would not kill a women. He also claimed he would have released Margaret Hassan if he had her, but she was murdered and found inside Fallujah which at the time was his stronghold. I still have my doubts if his "Lions" weren't the ones behind it. I hope for her safe return.

2 We'll definitely be seeing a video of her soon. Since A l Qaeda's the group behind it. It doesn't look good since she's an American. I hope people don't forget about her like they did about Jeffrey Ake and Tom Fox.

3 I am adopting a wait and see attitude on all hostages from now on if they are not military or associated. It is a dangerous environment and it is getting like you need a scorecard to know whos who walking around it.

4 I'm just a teensy bit suspicious that all these kidnappings are not much more than publicity stunts. Wait for the book, and mark my words.

5 Well she's an American so she's not in on it. The kidnappers may let her go since she's a woman but who knows. You thought the peacekeepers faked it but guess what? They are still missing and probably dead.

6 Who cares about this journalist! i bet she is a liberal commie traitor who should be shot on sight! I bet she is pro-abortion too! We should be happy that al-quaeda took this book reading liberal out of america! hahahahahahhahahaha ahhahahahahahahahah ....this is how ridiculous you guys sound. ernie

7 Ernie is an uninformed IDIOT. The kidnapped woman works for one of the most respected, conservative newspapers in the world -- and you can bet that she's also opposed to abortion. It's very sad that such a quality minded ournalist has been kidnapped - or any human being for that matter. It's stupid idiots like Ernie who deserve to be kidnapped and tortured. Take the time to learn the truth before exposing your ignorance, you fool.

8 What's wrong with being pro abortion? I don't support abortion but this is America and women have the right to choose. If they want an abortion,let them. Also just because a person's liberal doesn't mean they deserve to be kidnapped and beheaded. So to answer your question, who cares about the journalist? I do because she's a human being. Unlike you. ASS!!!

9 You don't support abortion but you support a woman's right to choose what? Abortion. That means you support abortion. j/s.

10 Hey george, nobody cares what you say, because you're such a moron that you couldn't say anything of consequence even by accident. Fuck off with your little friend ernie ya dipshit.

11 Go fuck yourself you far right mother fucker. No I don't support abortion but if woman want to do it. Let them. I can't stop them. Think. And go fuck yourself Maximus. OHHH I'm so scared. Mommy he hurt my feelings.

12 Let me explain better. I'm 18 years old so I'm not married. If I had a wife and she became pregnant, I would not want her to have an abortion. I couldn't live with myself knowing that I killed my child. However if other women want to have an abortion then I won't stop them. This is America and they have the right to do what they want. I don't know them personally so it's none of my business what they do. I'm a moderate so I support some of what Democrats and Republicans do but I also think they both screw up on some of what they do. Now do you understand Jesusland Joe? By the way, what in the name of Jesus(Pardon the pun) is J/S???

13 Hey you guys? I think we're forgetting about the important thing in this situation here...a young woman was kidnapped and is posibly being tortured. What does it matter what she stands for? She was kidnapped doing a job that's intention is to keep us informed about the current state of the world. Her professors at UMass Amherst are now my professors and all of them can only speak about how wonderful she is as a person. Please don't turn this into an argument about religious questions - just wish and hope and pray or do whatever you do to ask forher safe return, do your arguing somewhere else. Thanks.

14 There is no end to the lunacy of these people, nor are there any boundaries as to what is off limits for them ... NO act is taboo to them if they think it furthers their craziness. I feel for this young woman and pray for her return alive and well, however, the chances of this are not good. Killing a woman has more shock value than killing a man and they know this. Their goal is to shock and anger us as much as possible, and to try to make us feel powerless at their hand. No one can reason with fanatics.They do not want nor are they incapable of comprehending reason. I say STOP trying to understand them. We should not try, nor should we apologize for our actions in attempting to rescue any of our people from them. If any one of them is offended, TOO BAD. I believe the only people we should pull out of there are our civilians and then deal with these people in any manner that is necessary to get them under control before we find ourselves having to do it on our own soil. WAKE UP PEOPLE!

15 Agreed, I'm praying for this woman.

16 While Jill Carroll remains in the hands of the terrorists, we must not cease to pray for her and to take what actions we can. Jill is an intelligent and resourceful young woman. Let us pray that God gives her the words to say to her captors which result in her quick release.

17 I knew Jill when I worked at the Collegian at UMass. She is sharp, fair and compassionate. Let's hope they realize just what a valuable member of our humanity she is; it is obvious. I pray for you, Jill and for your family and hope for your safe return.

18 I knew Jill at the Collegian at UMass as well. She's a real person who has been part of people's lives. At the Collegian she was hard-working, dedicated, and extremely bright. I can see from her articles and reporting work that she hasn't changed. I am keeping her in my prayers, regardless of what her views are on abortion.

19 What do her personal views have to do with anything? Isn't this why we are over there in the first place? Anyone who makes this an issue is as sick as the terrorists. It is their agenda to kill anyone who isn't as twisted as they are, and who doesn't subscribe to their fanatical points of view. Don't sink to their level.

20 Keeping things in perspective, there is a human out there who is in danger. A woman that could be your wife, your sister, your best friend, your co-worker...even you, imagine. Sending prayers to Jill that she is comforted & protected, alive & well. Asking for God's blessings to resolve this matter & bring her & other hostages back to their family & friends, who are missing & loving them. Show us that there is good in this world. Pls leave politics & judgements aside when it comes to human suffering. Thank you. Grace

21 I am so sorry to hear that Jill's captors have now threatened to kill her, and are making impossible demands on the US as ransoms. Have we had had enough? Mr Bush, You now what must be done. These people need to understand that we no longer will stand for their fanatical behaviour.

22 I feel really bad for that young lady. I feel bad for all the innocents that get hurt on any side at war. War is a very ugly beast and should be avoided. This is a war of power, greed, and lies. One religious nut trying to take over another. They both want the very same thing. Take over the world and make everyone live under their God. That is a war zone. What was she doing there, cause it was the cool thing to do. War is not a game. It's not like tree hugging, or save the whales. I pray she stays safe.

23 I believe Ms Carroll was honestly trying to help this situation, and that she did know the risks. I do not believe this in any way justifies her kidnapping and possible death. Anyone remember Daniel Pearl? Were we not paying attention? What about all the other Americans that have died after him? People that were there trying to help these people. They do not want help. They cannot fathom living any other way than they have for the past thousands of years. There is no reason or intelligence here. HELLO !!!!!

24 Are you people insane? The Christian Science Monitor is NOT a conservative newspaper nor does it have anything to do with religion. They are a left wing rag in Boston. Jill Caroll has been writing hit pieces on the US Government for a few years now, she is a terrorist sympathizer. The irony of this story is- Now she will be depending on the marines (the people she hates so much) to come rescue her from her ordeal.

25 These people are evil. And anybody, whether American or other, that criticizes the war on terror and sympathizes with these animals, have this girl's blood on there hands if she is killed. Why? Because the anti-war, careless statements give the enemy hope and prolong this insanity. May all the radical Muslims burn forever in hell! And, may you sympathizers burn with them!

26 These terrorist know that the U.S. will never give in to their demands.Thats the whole point.They are just eager to kill as many Americans & Jews & any of our allies as they can. Although the dumbasses fail to realize that by killing all these innocent people is just gonna make things worse for them.I hope they wise up & release this young woman,because killing her isn't gonna change 1 damn thing.They know it wont.They just wanna kill as many as they can. I think we should just take over Iraq completely, because as soon as we leave there & it does'nt matter if it's 10 years from now.It's still gonna be the same & even worse once we leave.You can not teach the unteachable.If these dumbasses want us out of there.Then they need to stop beheading people.If any of them had a brain.Then the smart thing to do would be to release this young lady. Oh & by the way Ernie...I hope you burn in hell you worthless piece of shit!!!

27 Clyde ... FINALLY, a fellow voice of reson! These people are making unreasonable demands for Ms Carroll's release simply in an attempt to justify their behaviour to their people, and to send their own people a message, as wel as the US. They want us to be afraid of them, period. They want everyone to fear them and to feel powerless against them. Trouble is, they are such cowards that they can't fight us like men. They scurry around refusing to wear any uniform or be recognized, always hiding their faces, do sneak attacks and then running away, torture and kill women and helpless children. They are cowards, having no honor whatsoever. They deserve nothing from us. I believe we should pull ALL of our civilian police, contractors, and humanitarian workers out of there and take care of business. If bombing them into submission is what works, then that is what we need to do. No mercy, no sympathy. Get them under control so we can move forward and deal with other things that need attended to ...

28 Why hasn't the media had a lip reader tell us what Jill is saying in the video? It seems pretty obvious that this could be done.

29 I am certain the Government has done this. It is possible they are not releasing that for various reason I can think of.

30 Look at those who have been kidnapped and held hostage in Iraq so far. Notice what most of them have in common. Recently an entire group of American peace activists, who are against the war and seeking an end to the US occupation were taken hostage, and now Jill, who is also very sympathetic to the Iraqi people, is now being held. Remember also how the man who was beheaded, was shown to be wearing an orange jumpsuit, exactly the same as those worn by US held prisoners, he was sitting in a chair exactly the same as those used in Abu Griab Prison, and even the walls looked the same as in Abu Griab Prison. Why can't people do the math on this and come to the obvious conclusion? Well many do, as do many others around the world also, but Bush loyalists are in complete denial of the obvious. They would prefer to believe that Iraqis are intentionally harming their own cause by targeting those who are sympathetic to them, and that US military, who have been caught red handed several times torturing prisoners, are somehow above doing these things to keep the public supportive of their occupation. I am a loyal American. It is because I love my country that I am outrage by such things, and I must stand up for what is right, by standing in opposition to the Bush administration.

31 Well Natasha...I understand what you're saying...I just happen to disagree with you...It is so easy for people to point the finger at Bush now isn't it??? I do not agree on everything Bush has done,but I'd rather have someone like him in there then someone like John Kerry...The reason I voted for Bush is because I think he's the best when it comes to security...If John Kerry had of won we probably would have done had another attack like 9/11 & had some kind of massive weapon smuggled into 1 of our cities...I dont know about you,but I would much rather have car bombs & suicide bombers,& everything destoyed over there then I would here in America...It is so easy to jump across the mexican border...Who knows how many terrorist are already here & just waiting for the right time to strike...I agree with Bush invading our privacy by tapping our phones...All the democrats & liberals have nothing better to do then bitch & complain every chance they get... Thats what's weakening America...Not the bush Administration...If people are'nt talking about anything illegal on the phone,then they have nothing to worry about...If people wanna talk to their lawyers...Then the smart way to do that is in person any damn way...Im so sick of people blaming Bush for every gidamn thing that happens. He's the one who's the President...Not you....He's the one whom which the majority of the country voted for...Not You....He's the one who is there & knows whats really going on...Not You...Dont let the media corrupt your mind...They are very good about doing that sort of thing...especially to the weak idiots who believe them...OMG...Hurricane Katrina Wiped out New Orleans...Come On Everybody...Lets Blame Bush!!!Omg Everybody...Bush must hate blacks.... Come On Everybody...Bush Is A KKK Member...Omg I stomped my toe...Wait...I know...I'll just Blame Bush For that too...WAKE UP YOU FUCKIN" REJECTS...Bush is a damn good president considering all the bullshit he has had to deal with...Look how much he's changed by looks since he was elected...Thats stress...Because everything he tries to do to make this country better...you have Democrats & Liberals trying to fuck everything up...How is this country ever gonna get anything done when you have dipshits like John Kerry & Ted Kennedy,Joe Biden, & all those other jerk offs trying their best to destroy this country...They're rich...Our Opinions mean nothing to them...They would'nt piss on us if we were on fire...I dont see a good future for America.With just 2 years left we'll never get anything done...& even if we do...It wont be long enough...because once a democrat gets in office they'll just change it back or make it worse then it was before...If I had it my way...I would want Bush on for a 3rd term...We should deport all the illegals,Foreigners should not be allowed to vote,or run for any type of political office... Everything is just going to hell...Taking the pledge of allegience out of schools...Taking down certain Christian symbols simply because its offensive to illegals who are over here jacking our jobs,living on welfare,collecting food stamps,living off our goverment...living off our tax dollars...Oh,but when we,us,The Real Americans...The ones that were born & raised here are broke,or in a bind...When we need something they put us in the back of the line,or just flat out tell us Hell No!!!There is more to just being an American then being born here...If You think that by coming over here from another country & starting a new life makes you an American...Then you better go have your head examined...because you will always be a foreigner to America...You have to be born & raised here to consider yourself an American...I believe we have alot of big problems ahead of us & we're gonna have to Reunify ourselves...Get our priorities straight...And Stand United like we should be...Deal with these Islamic fucks so our children dont have to go through this bullshit... These terrorist organizations are a bigger threat then most people care to acknowledge...They Must be stopped...As you can see Iran is starting up their bullshit...Any country that has a Prime Minister who says Israel should be wiped off the map & says shit like the holocaust never happened & then says "Oh by the way,We are gonna build us a nuclear weapon",has no buisness having a nuclear weapon...And if America does'nt do anything about it,you can bet your ass Israel will...Israel will nuke there ass without hesitation...and wont give a damn if we like it or not...Americans Freedom's are slowly deteriorating...We are slowly but surely losing rights...Freedom of Speech is not as it should be anymore...They wanna lock you up now for speaking your mind...Oh & another thing...All the lawsuits on hospitals & Insurance companies & all the others are mostly caused by foreigners coming over here & faking injuries to themselves trying to get a pot of gold...That has got to stop...That is costing our goverment lots of money...Money that could be helping poor Americans...Anyways...I've spoken my mind... I wish the best for "Jill Carroll"...I hope she comes back home & I hope all the sorry piece of shit terrorist burn in hell forever...Oh...And Ernie...I have'nt forgotten about you ya little bitch...I hope you step on a shovel & knock your fuckin' teeth down your throat...Then I hope you choke to death on them & join your friends in a burning hell...

32 Listen, with all due respect, I am nobody obviously, I don't know this woman personally or something, but being human, she should not die especially at this young age, and its not wrong for her friends (directly or indirectly) to vent out their love or frustrations here. For the ones who have been giving ridiculously negative comments regarding Jill her, you don't know anything what they are undergoing! All you can go is bla bla bla, lets take Iraq over, bla bla bla, they want us to negotiate, bla bla bla, Bush government aint doin anything, bla bla .. whatever! Amanda, LAB, Dan ... ignore these ignorant fools and keep those sprits high, she will come home. There's still hope ..

33 The NEOCONS have committed the same grave error of conscience and character made by the people of Germany under Adolf Hitler. Hitler rose to absolute power on the national panic caused by the Reichstag Fire, and Bush has taken the same advantage of 911. This world has always been a dangerous place, and freedom has always been very costly. The wise know that freedom is priceless, and they know also that the safety Bush promises in exchange for it, is a mere fools ransom. Why do you think they call America the land of the free 'and' the home of the brave? If you are not brave enough to live here in freedom, then by all means live in a safe and orderly police state, but do so somewhere else. I hear the PRC is very safe and orderly. There are no drugs, no muggings, no terrorism, and the streets are clean too. If that is what matters to you most of all, then by all means, please get your stupid ass on plane and go!

34 I hope with all my heart that Jill is released and comes home safe, but I have a feelings she is a very aware and smart woman, and by now she knows who really kidnapped her. I can just see it her eyes, and I just know somehow she desperately wishes she could tell us.

35 What do you think is happening to her while she is waiting for the execution?

36 thes terrorist sons of bitches are cowards. ,aking their people do their dirty work while they sit in lavish palaces with their women. whats more they use their people and islam for their own greed manaical ends. peole of islam wake up! you must break free from those that put you in bondage.

37 Thursday, January 19, 2006 From democracy to Captive BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) — As a deadline neared for hostage American journalist Jill Carroll, Muslim leaders and her pleading mother appealed Thursday to kidnappers to spare her life and set her free. Referring to demands from Carroll's abductors that Iraqi women be released from U.S. custody, a senior Iraqi official said six jailed Iraqi women were due to be freed by the U.S. military. Not just another beautiful face,but another beautiful AMERICAN face. So we have been wondering fro a long time now......what does our government in charge stand for? or are the suspisions correct and and they dont stand but are controlled by the anceant middle east? Are we going to ler our girl....that's right ( Our Girl) whose only plan as a journalist was to bring demography to seed in the middel east with comasssionate reports and storys of burnt out life in Iraq? Do you want to wake up every morning to this-----> Well have a nice day at school now son,and study the rebelion hard so you can show the world that even though we are a 3rd rate country we can offer a better show then the blai witch .So go on now Son,go suck some 1st rate blood and get a real good taste for it now. was that totally out there....out of controll,maybe even stupid? Well not any more stupid as the complete waste of man power,service men and woman lifes, millions on millions if not billions of dollars spent to show a ungrateful people the meaning of democracy. Yes they are learning all right, learning that the bush administration is a first rate fear factor machine,and doesn't have the balls to go in there...take the chance,and get the girl or not but put an end to this terrorists activitys once and for all. Will some one in the Bush administration please wake up!,and lets get moving into a peaceful future,and if that means taking out a natation full of terrorists.........do it all ready. I believ in second chances...third ,fourth,even fifth chances if that is what it takes. But if after all that time and effort the only response we can get back is ( off with her head!) Man....I mean put the playboy mag down and get out of the john Mr. P/ Do Something! Help me Mr. President! BOO HOO HOO HOO..snif! some body call 911 please. Have you seen this girl?Call Us.... we can help.Do you know where our childeren are?BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) — As a deadline neared for hostage American journalist Jill Carroll, Muslim leaders and her pleading mother appealed Thursday to kidnappers to spare her life and set her free. Referring to demands from Carroll's abductors that Iraqi women be released from U.S. custody, a senior Iraqi official said six jailed Iraqi women were due to be freed by the U.S. military.Read some other blogs.

38 These beast abductors must be killed. . . the only thing they know is to raise funds by abducting people. Our society must not give importance for these kind of people. by recognizing them, they are also very happy since they thought they are important. They are evil and considered as social cancer.(Neneng C.Rellama-Philippines)

39 Clueless, they are known to torture female Americans with electricity, using car batteries, and I heard some other rumors too... It might not be all that good that she is pretty I am praying for her

40 The Iraqis want the US out of Iraq right? Yes they do, and supposedly they take hostages to make the US get out. Why would the Iraqis take peace activists and sympathetic journalists as hostages? They are not stupid. They know that if they did such things it would only make the American people more supportive of the occupation. Look at the timing of these kidnappings. They always happen when support for the occupation is failing. It is not Al-Qaeda. It is Al-CIAda. Use some common sense.

41 http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=local&id=3828678 ABC NEWS Duke Professor Skeptical of bin Laden Tape By Amber Rupinta (01/19/06 -- DURHAM) - A Duke professor says he is doubtful about Thursday's audiotape from Osama bin Laden. Bruce Lawrence has just published ?Messages to the World: The Statements of Osama Bin Laden,? a book translating bin Laden?s writing. He is skeptical of Thursday?s message. ?It was like a voice from the grave,? Lawrence said. He thinks bin Laden is dead and has doubts about the tape. Lawrence recently analyzed more than 20 complete speeches and interviews of the al Qaida leader for his book. He says the new message is missing several key elements. ?There?s nothing in this from the Koran. He?s, by his own standards, a faithful Muslim,? Lawrence said. ?He quotes scripture in defense of his actions. There?s no quotation from the Koran in the excerpts we got, no reference to specific events, no reference to past atrocities.? While the CIA confirms the voice on the tape is bin Laden?s, Lawrence questions when it was recorded. He says the timing of its release could be to divert attention from last week?s U.S. air strike in Pakistan. The strike targeted bin Laden?s deputy, Ayman al-Zawahri, and killed four leading al Qaeda figures along with civilians. Lawrence believes faulty Pakistani intelligence led to the strike and the civilian deaths, and the tape was leaked by Pakistani authorities to divert attention from their mistake. ?It led to a failed military operation where America got blamed, but they people who are really to blame are the ones who provided the intelligence,? Lawrence said. ?I think this is an effort to say were not going look at this terrible incident that happened.? Another element that Lawrence takes issue with in bin Laden?s latest message is it?s length - - only 10 minutes. Previously, the shortest was 18 minutes.

42 Catching on yet? Christian peace activists and a journalist very sympathetic to the Iraqi people, Jill Carroll, are taken hostage. Then a supposed audio tape of Osama bin Laden threatening terrorism in the US is released. Now just whose agenda do these things serve? It is brutally obvious. The Bush administration is working overtime, to get the American people to support the Iraq occupation, and the immanent invasion of Iran. Wake up people! It's not Al-Qaeda. It's Al-CIAda.

43 I don't like everything he does or says, but his website has some great information, and you NEED to know what is really going on. Use the link. http://www.infowars.com/

44 What In The Blue Hell Is Going Through Your Mind Aaron???

45 And Where The Hell Did My Last Comments I Posted Run Off To???I Think They Dont Like Us Dee...

46 Natasha??? You would'nt by any chance be from Baltimore,Maryland would you?

47 Why is it that people feel the need to post views about things they couldnt possibly understand and have no intention on doing a damn thing about?Hey, how about putting on a military uniform and bringing your self over here and helping rid the world of these fanatics that you have no understanding of!That woman needs prayer not people who would venture to guess what side of the political fence she rides on or whether shes pro abortion or not.makes me sick to know that i defend your right to freedom of speech.

48 Anyone who claims it makes them sick, to know they defend the right to freedom of speech of those whom they disagree with, are not the defenders of liberty they wish us to believe they are. Out one side of his mouth pours hate, while out of the other side of his mouth oozes references to prayer. Who does that remind you of?

49 Has anyone interpreted what she was saying?!

50 as i look around iraq,Natasha......where are you?oh yeh, sitting in the states attempting to belittle others.i dont hate people like you and some of the others on this site.i just hope one day that the insurgents find and take people like you hostage instead of people like Jill Carroll.so sit in your little world taking your safety for granted and ill keep despising the fact that her life is in real danger and all you people can do is post bullshit on a web site about her.oh and by the way,rest easy knowing that we'll keep kicking in doors and dodging bullets trying to find her.god bless.....out here

51 He says he doesn't hate people like me, but he hopes the insurgents take people like me hostage, instead of people like Jill Carroll. He is obviously very confused. He advises me to, "sit in my little world taking my safety for granted", while he kicks in the doors of terrified Iraqis, dragging them off to Abu Graib Prison for "interrogation". Such despicable acts do not make me feel safe. I do not take my safety for granted anymore than the poor Iraqis do now. One would have to be a complete fool to take their safety for granted since the "Patriot" Act, what with the new secret police, and the NSA spying on us and all. Sadly now we must fear our own government. The way things are now, taking ones safety for granted is not only stupid, it is absolutely impossible. By the way. This "mongoose" guy is not in Iraq. They do not allow soldiers to log onto the INTERNET and go on forums discussing the occupation. They totally do NOT.

52 Natasha, you must be cute cuz you sure ain't smart

53 Oh. Ouch.

54 LOL...I Think One Of You Is Scared & The Other Is Glad Of It...

55 Clearly you rarely ever do though, and once again your words make this evident.

56 Oh Shut Up!!!

57 When Seeing and Hearing Isn't Believing Bill Arkin By William M. Arkin Monday, Feb. 1, 1999 "Gentlemen! We have called you together to inform you that we are going to overthrow the United States government." So begins a statement being delivered by Gen. Carl W. Steiner, former Commander-in-chief, U.S. Special Operations Command. At least the voice sounds amazingly like him. But it is not Steiner. It is the result of voice "morphing" technology developed at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico. By taking just a 10-minute digital recording of Steiner's voice, scientist George Papcun is able, in near real time, to clone speech patterns and develop an accurate facsimile. Steiner was so impressed, he asked for a copy of the tape. Steiner was hardly the first or last victim to be spoofed by Papcun's team members. To refine their method, they took various high quality recordings of generals and experimented with creating fake statements. One of the most memorable is Colin Powell stating "I am being treated well by my captors." "They chose to have him say something he would never otherwise have said," chuckled one of Papcun's colleagues. A Box of Chocolates is Like War Most Americans were introduced to the tricks of the digital age in the movie Forrest Gump, when the character played by Tom Hanks appeared to shake hands with President Kennedy. For Hollywood, it is special effects. For covert operators in the U.S. military and intelligence agencies, it is a weapon of the future. "Once you can take any kind of information and reduce it into ones and zeros, you can do some pretty interesting things," says Daniel T. Kuehl, chairman of the Information Operations department of the National Defense University in Washington, the military's school for information warfare. PSYOPS seeks to exploit human vulnerabilities in enemy governments, militaries and populations. Digital morphing — voice, video, and photo — has come of age, available for use in psychological operations. PSYOPS, as the military calls it, seek to exploit human vulnerabilities in enemy governments, militaries and populations to pursue national and battlefield objectives. To some, PSYOPS is a backwater military discipline of leaflet dropping and radio propaganda. To a growing group of information war technologists, it is the nexus of fantasy and reality. Being able to manufacture convincing audio or video, they say, might be the difference in a successful military operation or coup. Allah on the Holodeck Pentagon planners started to discuss digital morphing after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait in 1990. Covert operators kicked around the idea of creating a computer-faked videotape of Saddam Hussein crying or showing other such manly weaknesses, or in some sexually compromising situation. The nascent plan was for the tapes to be flooded into Iraq and the Arab world. The tape war never proceeded, killed, participants say, by bureaucratic fights over jurisdiction, skepticism over the technology, and concerns raised by Arab coalition partners. What if the U.S. projected a holographic image of Allah floating over Baghdad? But the "strategic" PSYOPS scheming didn't die. What if the U.S. projected a holographic image of Allah floating over Baghdad urging the Iraqi people and Army to rise up against Saddam, a senior Air Force officer asked in 1990? According to a military physicist given the task of looking into the hologram idea, the feasibility had been established of projecting large, three-dimensional objects that appeared to float in the air. But doing so over the skies of Iraq? To project such a hologram over Baghdad on the order of several hundred feet, they calculated, would take a mirror more than a mile square in space, as well as huge projectors and power sources. And besides, investigators came back, what does Allah look like? The Gulf War hologram story might be dismissed were it not the case that [CENSORED] has learned that a super secret program was established in 1994 to pursue the very technology for PSYOPS application. The "Holographic Projector" is described in a classified Air Force document as a system to "project information power from space ... for special operations deception missions." War is Like a Box of Chocolates Voice-morphing? Fake video? Holographic projection? They sound more like Mission Impossible and Star Trek gimmicks than weapons. Yet for each, there are corresponding and growing research efforts as the technologies improve and offensive information warfare expands. Whereas early voice morphing required cutting and pasting speech to put letters or words together to make a composite, Papcun's software developed at Los Alamos can far more accurately replicate the way one actually speaks. Eliminated are the robotic intonations. The irony is that after Papcun finished his speech cloning research, there were no takers in the military. Luckily for him, Hollywood is interested: The promise of creating a virtual Clark Gable is mightier than the sword. Video and photo manipulation has already raised profound questions of authenticity for the journalistic world. With audio joining the mix, it is not only journalists but also privacy advocates and the conspiracy-minded who will no doubt ponder the worrisome mischief that lurks in the not too distant future. "We already know that seeing isn't necessarily believing," says Dan Kuehl, "now I guess hearing isn't either."

58 Oh Gee...That Was Something we sure did'nt know.. Thank you for the momentary Glimpse of Day-Ja-Voo

59 Hey Natasha...Can I borrow $10 bucks???

60 There are those who are not aware of that, and I posted that for their benefit. There are other people in this world other than you. What is said or done by others, does not necessarily relate to what you want, or are already aware of.

61 More On New US Containment Camps. Just in case of what? Jan. 24, 2006, 11:05AM (BW) KBR Awarded U.S. Department of Homeland Security Contingency Support Project for Emergency Support Services By Business Editors (c) 2006 Business Wire ARLINGTON, Va.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Jan. 24, 2006--KBR announced today that the Department of Homeland Security's (DHS) U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) component has awarded KBR an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) contingency contract to support ICE facilities in the event of an emergency. KBR is the engineering and construction subsidiary of Halliburton (NYSE:HAL). With a maximum total value of $385 million over a five-year term, consisting of a one-year based period and four one-year options, the competitively awarded contract will be executed by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Fort Worth District. KBR held the previous ICE contract from 2000 through 2005. "We are especially gratified to be awarded this contract because it builds on our extremely strong track record in the arena of emergency operations support," said Bruce Stanski, executive vice president, KBR Government and Infrastructure. "We look forward to continuing the good work we have been doing to support our customer whenever and wherever we are needed." The contract, which is effective immediately, provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to augment existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations (DRO) Program facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs. The contingency support contract provides for planning and, if required, initiation of specific engineering, construction and logistics support tasks to establish, operate and maintain one or more expansion facilities. The contract may also provide migrant detention support to other U.S. Government organizations in the event of an immigration emergency, as well as the development of a plan to react to a national emergency, such as a natural disaster. In the event of a natural disaster, the contractor could be tasked with providing housing for ICE personnel performing law enforcement functions in support of relief efforts. ICE is one of three agencies that make up the Border and Transportation Security (BTS) Directorate of the DHS. The mission of the BTS Directorate is to secure the nation's air, land and sea borders. ICE, the largest investigative arm of the DHS, is responsible for identifying and shutting down vulnerabilities in the nation's border, economic, transportation and infrastructure security. KBR is a global engineering, construction, technology and services company. Whether designing an LNG facility, serving as a defense industry contractor, or providing small capital construction, KBR delivers world-class service and performance. KBR employs more than 60,000 people in 43 countries around the world. Halliburton, founded in 1919, is one of the world's largest providers of products and services to the petroleum and energy industries. The company serves its customers with a broad range of products and services through its Energy Services Group and KBR. Visit the company's World Wide Web site at www.halliburton.com.

62 Our government keeps growing LARGER, and our rights to privacy and freedom of movement, continue to be reduced as the economy teeters on the brink of collapse. Now the Bush administration has funded the building of massive internment camps right here at home. I don't care if you are a conservative or a liberal. These things are cause for grave concern. Clearly it is high time for all of us to drop the partisan bickering, and begin taking a very hard look at what is taking place in our own land for a change. Our entire way of life, the very freedom we have fought for in so many wars, is threatened not from outside by terrorists, but from within, by the very people who claim to protect us. "Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin

63 Oh Geez Natasha...You're pretty hostile for a barnyard animal...

64 Well Natasha...I agree with you on some things... You just need to work on pointing your finger at somebody else besides the Bush Administration for once...

65 I'll be waiting to hear about that $10 bucks...

66 Oh & by the way...The world does revolve around me...I'm just that damn great!!!

67 Natasha...Maybe I can help make you feel better about yourself...So Repeat After Me............ "I LIKE ME"..."YOU LIKE ME"..."AND I'M GOING TO HELP YOU"..."LIKE YOU"..............."SMILE"...

68 I sure hope Jill comes home safe. I have not heard any news about her, and so I imagine she is still alive. I think if they had killed her they would be using that for propaganda, and so I think that may be a good sign. Maybe I am just believing what I want to believe, but I can't help it. I really really hope this has a good ending.

69 its her own fault reporters should not be there on there own will

70 fuckin retard

71 Billy...You ot to not talk like dat...You just a boy...

72 Release of al-Qaida Detainee Still A Mystery 31 Jan 2006 - UPI RABAT, Morocco: Mystery surrounds the release by U.S. authorities in August 2004 of a Moroccan, suspected of being once the bodyguard of Osama bin Laden. Abdallah Tabarak, a former Moroccan transit worker, was captured in 2001 and taken to the U.S. Navy base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. But then in August 2004, he was suddenly released and now Tabarak lives near Casablanca, almost a free man, reports The Washington Post. His case comes to light as the Pentagon gets ready for the first of its military tribunals. It points to the mysteries of U.S. priorities in deciding who to keep and who to let go, said the Post. When captured, Tabarak was suspected of being the bodyguard for the al-Qaida leader, who had worked on bin Laden's farm in Sudan and helped run a gemstone smuggling racket in Afghanistan. But neither the Pentagon nor official in Morocco would publicly offer any explanation why he was released. Tabarak's attorney says his importance as an al-Qaida figure has been exaggerated. http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20060130-101121-8626r [end UPI release] Hmmmmm Why was Abdallah Tabarak, Osama bin Laden's bodyguard, released by the US from Guantanamo, and yet most US prisoners have no known associations to al-Qaida? This is not the first time this has happened either. Why would "al-Qaida" kidnap peace activists and journalists, who oppose the US occupation and are sympathetic to the Iraqi people, instead of Haliburton employees or something? If "al-Qaida" is really that incredibly stupid, then why have US forces, not swiftly defeated them as promised? Why does "al-Qaida" release video and audio tapes whenever support for the war begins to fall again? Use a little common sense people. It's not al-Qaida. It's al-CIAda. We are on to you al-CIAda. Release Jill Carroll!

73 http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/020106Z.shtml What Really Happened By Cindy Sheehan t r u t h o u t | Perspective Wednesday 01 February 2006 As most of you have probably heard, I was arrested before the State of the Union address last night. I am speechless with fury at what happened and with grief over what we have lost in our country. There have been lies from the police and distortions by the press (shocker). So this is what really happened: This afternoon at the People's State of the Union Address in DC, where I was joined by Congresspersons Lynn Woolsey and John Conyers, Ann Wright, Malik Rahim and John Cavanagh, Lynn brought me a ticket to the State of the Union address. At that time, I was wearing the shirt that said: 2245 Dead. How many more? After the PSOTU press conference, I was having second thoughts about going to the SOTU at the Capitol. I didn't feel comfortable going. I knew George Bush would say things that would hurt me and anger me, and I knew that I couldn't disrupt the address because Lynn had given me the ticket, and I didn't want to be disruptive out of respect for her. I, in fact, had given the ticket to John Bruhns, who is in Iraq Veterans Against the War. However, Lynn's office had already called the media, and everyone knew I was going to be there, so I sucked it up and went. I got the ticket back from John, and I met one of Congresswoman Barbara Lee's staffers in the Longworth Congressional Office building and we went to the Capitol via the underground tunnel. I went through security once, then had to use the rest room and went through security again. My ticket was in the 5th gallery, front row, fourth seat in. The person who in a few minutes was to arrest me, helped me to my seat. I had just sat down and I was warm from climbing 3 flights of stairs back up from the bathroom so I unzipped my jacket. I turned to the right to take my left arm out, when the same officer saw my shirt and yelled, "Protester." He then ran over to me, hauled me out of my seat, and roughly (with my hands behind my back) shoved me up the stairs. I said something like "I'm going, do you have to be so rough?" By the way, his name is Mike Weight. The officer ran with me to the elevators, yelling at everyone to move out of the way. When we got to the elevators, he cuffed me and took me outside to await a squad car. On the way out, someone behind me said, "That's Cindy Sheehan." At which point the officer who arrested me said, "Take these steps slowly." I said, "You didn't care about being careful when you were dragging me up the other steps." He said, "That's because you were protesting." Wow, I got hauled out of the People's House because I was "Protesting." I was never told that I couldn't wear that shirt into the Congress. I was never asked to take it off or zip my jacket back up. If I had been asked to do any of those things ... I would have, and written about the suppression of my freedom of speech later. I was immediately and roughly (I have the bruises and muscle spasms to prove it) hauled off and arrested for "unlawful conduct." After I had my personal items inventoried and my fingers printed, a nice Sgt. came in and looked at my shirt and said, "2245, huh? I just got back from there." I told him that my son died there. That's when the enormity of my loss hit me. I have lost my son. I have lost my First Amendment rights. I have lost the country that I love. Where did America go? I started crying in pain. What did Casey die for? What did the 2244 other brave young Americans die for? What are tens of thousands of them over there in harm's way for still? For this? I can't even wear a shirt that has the number of troops on it that George Bush and his arrogant and ignorant policies are responsible for killing. I wore the shirt to make a statement. The press knew I was going to be there, and I thought every once in awhile they would show me, and I would have the shirt on. I did not wear it to be disruptive, or I would have unzipped my jacket during George's speech. If I had any idea what happens to people who wear shirts that make the neocons uncomfortable, that I would be arrested ... maybe I would have, but I didn't. There have already been many wild stories out there. I have some lawyers looking into filing a First Amendment lawsuit against the government for what happened tonight. I will file it. It is time to take our freedoms and our country back. I don't want to live in a country that prohibits any person, whether or not he/she has paid the ultimate price for that country, from wearing, saying, writing, or telephoning any negative statements about the government. That's why I am going to take my freedoms and liberties back. That's why I am not going to let BushCo take anything else away from me ... or you. I am so appreciative of the couple of hundred of protesters who came to the jail while I was locked up to show their support. We have so much potential for good. There is so much good in so many people. Four hours and 2 jails after I was arrested, I was let out. Again, I am so upset and sore it is hard to think straight. Keep up the struggle ... I promise you, I will too.

74 Well,If that was exactly how it happened.Then I think they were wrong for hauling her out of there.In any case,I think they should have waited until she started running her mouth like she usually does,before they arrested her.That would have been a powerful blow against her if she had of.You can't blame Bush for it either.I know most of you democrats & Liberals like to jump at every oppertunity to blame Bush for some bullshit like that.The next thing we will hear is how Bush ordered her to be removed from the building.I sympathize with her over the loss of her son,but she has gone too far.She obviously does'nt understand the reasons we are at war.She is just so upset over her sons death she's gone insane.So I understand she has lost,but she must still pay for her actions,& she deserves the way she has been treated for her past actions.If I had of died when I was over there.I sure as hell would'nt have wanted my mother acting like that. I feel like that would disgrace my name.Everybody has their own preferences though.That's just mine.Her son chose to be a soldier & soldiers have a duty to defend their country by going into harms way.It's sad that we have to go to war,but it's necessary.If we do not confront these problems now,then we endanger the future generations.(OUR CHILDREN THAT IS).Alot of people don't think ahead of what will happen in the future if we do not take action.Thats why most of them come to retarded ass conclusions,because they don't acknowledge all the facts.Alot of people who are not political or never pay attention to what happens around the world usually,automatically make snap decisions & stupid remarks like it's wrong to be over there, Bush is evil,we're just stealing oil,stupid shit like that.Like my sisters for example.They know nothing about the world,yet they think they do. All they care about is what happens around them. They dont know who we are fighting.They dont know who attacked us on 9/11 except that they were terrorist.Hell,They would have to look it up just to find out who "President Bush" is.They dont take the time to vote for anything,even when it myte benefit them.Nor do they vote for presidential elections.My point is they know not 1 damn thing.All they hear is the rumours flowing through the air and they start running their mouths saying they're against the war.When they dont even who the hell we're fighting,or where we're fighting.They dont read the papers or watch the news or anything of that nature.They are not aware of what is happening around their country. Yet they like to bitch & complain when things dont go their way.It just pisses me off,because I see alot of that.They're the type that follows the crowd.Not knowing that they're following the wrong crowd.They're all in their late 20's.They should know better.Ofcourse,a couple of them are blondes.(Go Figure).Thats the problem with people here in America.Alot of them are afraid of failure & they panic.They're too scared to try & be independent.So instead they follow the crowd. The Democratic crowd,The Republican crowd & all the others without understanding the facts.It is very important to vote whether you like any of the parties or not.You simply must vote for whom you like the least.One way or another somebody is gonna win,& in my opinion if you don't vote,then you should sit back,seal your lips,& keep your opinions to yourself.I think we should be more stricter in our schools today.Make sure that todays youth is very well educated in these matters,because todays youth is losing interest in learning such things.Part of the reason for that is because we're not strict enough in school.Stricter by meaning kids should focus more on their work & make sure that each level they're at,that they have fully understood the subject.Then move on to the next.Where I went to school in the late 90's we hardly learned anything about the goverment.(And Yes It Was A Normal School).We were simply briefed on those subjects then moved on.I just know that I would want my kid to learn as much as they can,& understand the facts of how everything works.I dont want my kid to be the type who follows the crowd,& makes snap decisions about things they know nothing about.I dont want them to hear those rumours flowing through the air,& believe it without knowing the facts.Alot of you myte think Im a little off track,& that this is not the right place for me to be expressing my opinions.Why dont you tell that to "Natasha".She's the one who makes me go all haywire here.This is not her first time to do that either.I feel it's relevant,because all these things we talk about,are connected just about.Anyways,Lets keep hope alive for "Jill Carroll".May she return home safe & sound.

75 Oh By The Way "Natasha",BITE ME!!!

76 Oh,1 more thing "Natasha".Quit copying articles out of magazines,& posting them here.I'm the only who ever responds to them,& they suck.You just drive me nutz!

77 Why do you hate freedom?

78 Release of al-Qaida Detainee Still A Mystery 31 Jan 2006 - UPI RABAT, Morocco: Mystery surrounds the release by U.S. authorities in August 2004 of a Moroccan, suspected of being once the bodyguard of Osama bin Laden. Abdallah Tabarak, a former Moroccan transit worker, was captured in 2001 and taken to the U.S. Navy base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. But then in August 2004, he was suddenly released and now Tabarak lives near Casablanca, almost a free man, reports The Washington Post. His case comes to light as the Pentagon gets ready for the first of its military tribunals. It points to the mysteries of U.S. priorities in deciding who to keep and who to let go, said the Post. When captured, Tabarak was suspected of being the bodyguard for the al-Qaida leader, who had worked on bin Laden's farm in Sudan and helped run a gemstone smuggling racket in Afghanistan. But neither the Pentagon nor official in Morocco would publicly offer any explanation why he was released. Tabarak's attorney says his importance as an al-Qaida figure has been exaggerated. http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20060130-101121-8626r [end UPI release] Hmmmmm Why was Abdallah Tabarak, Osama bin Laden's bodyguard, released by the US from Guantanamo, and yet most US prisoners have no known associations to al-Qaida? This is not the first time this has happened either. Why would "al-Qaida" kidnap peace activists and journalists, who oppose the US occupation and are sympathetic to the Iraqi people, instead of Haliburton employees or something? If "al-Qaida" is really that incredibly stupid, then why have US forces, not swiftly defeated them as promised? Why does "al-Qaida" release video and audio tapes whenever support for the war begins to fall again? Use a little common sense people. It's not al-Qaida. It's al-CIAda. We are on to you al-CIAda. Release Jill Carroll!

79 I dont hate freedom...You just annoy me...

80 Then why not go over to Usenet or something? I bet they could use a good trolling.

81 Oh Shut Up ya little brat!!!

82 ....... .

83 ....... .

84 So called "Al-Qaeda", THE BASE in Arabic, was in fact the US code name for CIA funded and trained anti Soviet insurgents, operating in Afghanistan during the early 1980s. QUESTIONS Why was Abdallah Tabarak, Osama bin Laden's bodyguard, released by the US from Guantanamo Bay Prison, and yet the US admits that most "detainees", prisoners, have no known associations to "Al-Qaeda"? Why would "Al-Qaeda" kidnap peace activists and journalists, who oppose the US occupation and are sympathetic to the Iraqi people, when they could abduct people who are a threat to them? Why does "Al-Qaeda" release video and audio tapes whenever support for the war begins to fall again? Use a little common sense people. It's not Al-Qaeda. It's Al-CIAda. We are on to you Al-CIAda. Release Jill Carroll !

85 Was Jill Carroll abducted because she got to close to the truth about Al CIAda? The following article appeared in the May 23, 2002 edition of The Christian Science Monitor. http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0523/p11s02-coop.html Debunk the myth of Al Qaeda Its size and reach have been blown out of proportion By Kimberly A. McCloud and Adam Dolnik MONTEREY, CALIF. – News reports indicate that Al Qaeda, ousted from its camps in Afghanistan, is now on the loose, spreading terror around the world. Several recent attacks have been claimed by or attributed to the terrorist network, including an assault on a Jewish synagogue in Tunisia, multiple explosions in Yemen last month (including one at the US Embassy compound), attacks in the Philippines, and a fire in the Milan metro. But is Al Qaeda really behind all these attacks? Analysts cite differences in modus operandi compared with alleged past attacks, as well as more probable perpetrators in those recent incidents. Still, Al Qaeda is likely to be the top suspect in future incidents. Victims, including states, may even blame Al Qaeda for political reasons, namely to gain US sympathy and support. Would-be terrorists the world over may be inspired to perpetrate attacks, seeking to feel they are part of what they perceive as a large, powerful terrorist movement. The public perception that Al Qaeda is running wild is likely to increase fear, especially among Americans. Such concern, when translated into a heightened vigilance about one's surroundings – particularly in light of this week's warnings about future attacks in the US – may not be a completely bad thing. But unchecked public fear, taken to an extreme, could immobilize citizens, jeopardize civil liberties, and lead America into too many fights abroad. The United States and its allies in the war on terrorism must defuse the widespread image of Al Qaeda as a ubiquitous, super-organized terror network and call it as it is: a loose collection of groups and individuals that doesn't even refer to itself as "Al Qaeda." Most of the affiliated groups have distinct goals within their own countries or regions, and pose little direct threat to the United States. Washington must also be careful not to imply that any attack anywhere is by definition, or likely, the work of Al Qaeda. This phenomenon of "exaggerated enemy" is not new. In 1983, three spectacular suicide bombings in Beirut were claimed by the previously unknown "Islamic Jihad." Numerous subsequent attacks were attributed to the group. And while the intelligence community concluded that "Islamic Jihad" was a nom de guerre for the Lebanese Hizbullah, it was clear that many of the subsequent attacks were unrelated to the militant Shiia organization. Still, the campaign succeeded in creating the image of an invincible force, and "Islamic Jihad" became a symbol to follow – much as Al Qaeda is today. The US must be careful about its use of the term "Al Qaeda." Meaning "the base" in Arabic, it originally referred to an Afghan operational base for the mujahideen during the Soviet occupation in the '80s. In the current context of Osama bin Laden's terror network, this name was imposed externally by Western officials and media sources. Mr. bin Laden has, in fact, never mentioned "Al Qaeda" publicly. In the quest to define the enemy, the US and its allies have helped to blow it out of proportion. Posters and matchbooks featuring bin Laden's face and the reward for his capture in a dozen languages transformed this little-known "jihadist" into a household name and, in some places, a symbol of heroic defiance. By committing itself to eradicating terrorism, the Bush administration has put itself in a difficult position, especially if "Al Qaeda" begins popping up all over the map. While the US government must be diligent in protecting its citizens, it cannot try to extinguish every terrorist flame that appears without further encouraging the phenomenon as well as exhausting its resources. America must choose its battles wisely. Resisting immediate attribution of attacks to Al Qaeda is the first step in defusing the enemy. While the Bush administration has not necessarily been blaming all post-9/11 attacks on Al Qaeda, it has passively allowed others to claim themselves as Al Qaeda or to blame it. By allowing Al Qaeda to become the top brand name of international terrorism, Washington has packaged the "enemy" into something with a structure, a leader, and a main area of operation. An invisible, amorphous enemy may be even more frightening. But we must be honest with the facts in order to construct a viable long-term strategy to combat terrorism.

86 Just in case you misunderstood me before "Natasha"...SHUT THE HELL UP!!!

87 Why do you hate freedom?

88 No...Just You!!!

89 You don't hate me. You don't even know me. No. You just hate the truth.

90 An Al CIAda psychological operation (psyop) in action. "Why did it take five months for what Western media dubbed 'instant reactions to the insult' to materialize?" 'Muhammad cartoon' proved fake Imam added 3 especially provocative images to fuel outrage Posted: February 8, 2006 1:00 a.m. Eastern © 2006 WorldNetDaily.com http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48718 One of three especially inflammatory but undocumented Muhammad images distributed by a Danish imam as an example of an "anti-Muslim environment" in the European country turns out to be a poorly reproduced copy of an Associated Press photo taken at a French pig-squealing contest. The weblog NeanderNews pointed out the image used by Imam Ahmad Abu Laban was a faxed copy of AP's Aug. 15 photo of Jacques Barrot competing at the annual French Pig-Squealing Championships in Trie-sur-Baise. Since last week, Muslims throughout the world have engaged in protests and deadly riots in response to 12 cartoons caricaturing Islam's prophet Muhammad published in September by the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten and three much more provocative images that Muslim leaders have been unable to document. One of those images of mysterious origin, which never were published, is from the AP photo. Another depicts Muhammad as a pedophile demon and a third has a praying Muslim being raped by a dog, according to the weblog Gateway Pundit. Abu Laban, leader of the Islamic Society of Denmark, took the images on a tour of the Middle East in December to rally support for his protest against the newspaper and Danish government. Tour spokesman Akhmad Akkari explained the three drawings had been added to "give an insight in how hateful the atmosphere in Denmark is towards Muslims." Akkari claimed he didn't know the origin of the three images, saying they had been sent anonymously to Danish Muslims. But he rejected a request by the Danish newspaper Ekstra Bladet to speak with the people who supposedly received them. In a television interview, Abu Laban told Fox News the cartoons came from threatening letters, but he has not replied to the network's request to provide copies of the letters. A profile of Abu Laban Friday night on Danish television documented his close ties to the Egyptian terrorist group Gamaa Islamiya. Another program the same evening showed him speaking in English on Danish television in condemnation of the boycott of Danish goods, then, in an interview with the Middle East news channel al-Jazeera, happily remarking in Arabic about how well the boycott was going. Walid Phares, senior fellow with the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies in Washington, asked in an article published on Counterterrorism blog, "Why did it take five months for what Western media dubbed 'instant reactions to the insult' to materialize?" Leaders of the Muslim community in Denmark said they attempted to resolve the matter locally by asking the newspaper or government to apologize. But some analysts, Phares said, "see more of a greater agenda: taking advantage of the harm made by the pictures to impose a new political order in that Scandinavian country, and beyond." Abu Laban seemed to affirm that in the interview with Fox News, which was noted by Gateway Pundit. The Muslim cleric told reporter Jonathan Hunt of his demand that Danish leaders "within their abilities and competence and within the concept of dynamism of liberalism to create … a new set of rules. … " Hunt: So, you want a new set of rules for the way Western Europe lives? Abu Laban: Yes. [the cartoons in question are here] http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48718

91 What makes this bitch anymore important than the previous hostages that were killed? WTF are you people thinking. Ohh... let's give in to the terrorists, let us obey their every word and release other terrorists. Wake up you liberal jerks, stop being so god dam soft. Why should the United States do anything for her? afterall, we don't give into terrorist demands. They can kill her for all I care. P.S. Somebody should tell her to stop dressing like a terrorist, she looks ridiculous with that cloth over her head.

92 Another perfect example of how morally superior Christians are to those barbaric Muslims huh? By the way. Women are required to wear that "cloth" over there. It doesn't matter who they are or why they are there.

93 So much of what is happening are propaganda stunts sponsored by U.S imperial agents to fan the flames of war and aggression. With that said I'd say things do not look good for Jill. My guess is that she will be brutally killed, on video of course, so the world can witness the villan Arabs, who according to W "have no soul." Thusly American sheeple are made ready for the attack. Orwell spins in his grave. jamie jamie

94 Very well said Jamie. It still amazes me how blind so many people are to these things. It all seems so very obvious to me. Certainly the modus/opportunity/timing and motivation revealed by the agenda being profited, would be enough to make any decent police detective or FBI investigator, place BushcoHaliburtoninc as the number one suspect if kidnap/extortion/serial murder unsubs were being profiled. The structure shows these things to be standard wartime 'making of the enemy' propaganda. But the degree of viciousness and callous nature of methodology exceeds anything previously done in wartime by anyone to garner civil support for a war. In light of these things W's accusation of 'their' supposed soulessness is doubly chilling.

95 “There’s a complete lack of empathy from senior officers who don’t know what it’s like to be a combat soldier on the ground,” Rebrook said. “There’s a whole lot of people who don’t want to help you. They’re more concerned with process than product.” [article excerpt] The Charleston Gazette February 07, 2006 Soldier pays for armor Army demanded $700 from city man who was wounded By Eric Eyre Staff writer The last time 1st Lt. William “Eddie” Rebrook IV saw his body armor, he was lying on a stretcher in Iraq, his arm shattered and covered in blood. A field medic tied a tourniquet around Rebrook’s right arm to stanch the bleeding from shrapnel wounds. Soldiers yanked off his blood-soaked body armor. He never saw it again. But last week, Rebrook was forced to pay $700 for that body armor, blown up by a roadside bomb more than a year ago. “I last saw the [body armor] when it was pulled off my bleeding body while I was being evacuated in a helicopter,” Rebrook said. “They took it off me and burned it.” But no one documented that he lost his Kevlar body armor during battle, he said. No one wrote down that armor had apparently been incinerated as a biohazard. Rebrook’s mother, Beckie Drumheler, said she was saddened — and angry — when she learned that the Army discharged her son with a $700 bill. Soldiers who serve their country, those who put their lives on the line, deserve better, she said. “It’s outrageous, ridiculous and unconscionable,” Drumheler said. “I wanted to stand on a street corner and yell through a megaphone about this.” For the rest of the article go here. http://www.wvgazette.com/section/News/2006020623?pt=0 Face it. They don't care about any of us, or anything other, than getting what the want.

96 Hey guys Guess what? Jill Carrol doesn't have enough insight or individuality to know not to where bell bottoms under that stupid burka. So much for the independant thinker with strong opinions. Just another dumb girl which puts her in the majority.

97 One does not "where" pants, one wears them. What a stupid ass.

98 Thanks for the correction, Natasha Let me practise for a second. I don't wear baggy pants or pants that are stacked up at the bottom. I don't wear baggy pants or pants that are stacked up at the bottom. I don't wear baggy pants or pants that are stacked up at the bottom. Now-Girls are dumb and where bell bottoms all the time and pull their eyebrows out into nothing because almost all of them are dumb Like Jill Carroll. I'm so glad that I'm 37 and my sex drive has declined to the point where I don't have to talk to girls any more. I used to have to talk to them when I was younger but now I'm free. I'm also very glad I've never been married because I don't want to do anything for any women and I don't care what their hopes and dreams or opinions are about anything. I also am not going to listen to someone's talking to me about nothing constantly. Here's a little advice for you younger guys out there. If you want to get laid act as though you care what the girl has to say and keep the conversation about nothing. If you bring up anything complicated, 99% of the time you're going home alone. Also, don't get married because once the sex dies off you're stuck paying the bills of a nagging woman who will always be complaining and you'll never get anything out of the situation. For all you Carroll fans, don't worry they're not going to kill her. They'll let her go and then she'll have a press conference in her bell bottoms.

99 Thanks for the correction, Natasha. Let me practise for a second. I don't wear baggy pants or pants that are stacked up at the bottom. I don't wear baggy pants or pants that are stacked up at the bottom. I don't wear baggy pants or pants that are stacked up at the bottom. Now-Girls are dumb and where bell bottoms all the time and pull their eyebrows out into nothing because almost all of them are dumb Like Jill Carroll. I'm so glad that I'm 37 and my sex drive has declined to the point where I don't have to talk to girls any more. I used to have to talk to them when I was younger but now I'm free. I'm also very glad I've never been married because I don't want to do anything for any women and I don't care what their hopes and dreams or opinions are about anything. I also am not going to listen to someone's talking to me about nothing constantly. Here's a little advice for you younger guys out there. If you want to get laid act as though you care what the girl has to say and keep the conversation about nothing. If you bring up anything complicated, 99% of the time you're going home alone. Also, don't get married because once the sex dies off you're stuck paying the bills of a nagging woman who will always be complaining and you'll never get anything out of the situation. For all you Carroll fans, don't worry they're not going to kill her. They'll let her go and then she'll have a press conference in her bell bottoms.

100 Oops misspelled wear again and practice too. WHere's Natasha when I need her?

101 My heart goes out to Jill, but only because she's a total babe. I don't think I'd be paying attention if she wasn't good-looking.

102 Now we have the true Natasha. Conspiracies everywhere! No matter what it is, no matter who did it, the CIA is behind it! I'm wondering; is this the bumbling CIA who couldn't get any intel straight and couldn't connect the simplest of dots - or the CIA who controls the world as if it were their own private puppet show ... MuWAHAHAHA. (Sooper sekrit note to self: remember to tell Natasha "'tis best to link to information on the net instead of copying and pasting reams and reams of someone else's work.") Natasha, you're proving to be a real lightweight, dear.

103 OK. Who brought the trollhouse kookies?

104 Uh, excuse me - "troll" speaking: For your information there are logical and reasonable explanations for all your "conspiracies". Not that logic or reason comprises any part of your repertoire. 1) ICE facilities - ICE facilities serve many purposes. They are not detainment camps in the manner you imply no matter what you read in the media. That is all hype and baloney. They are for containment purposes for emergency reasons such as disease outbreaks that may occur naturally or by reason of mass immigration of infected persons or by reason of deliberate measures like a terrorist organization which may spread, by any means, something like typhoid, plague or any type of infectious organism. They are also for the detainment of mass illegal immigrants as well as for the use of military personnel to facilitate proper procedures of containment for any manner of issues. If they're building new facilities, my guess would be that they finally intend to detain a great deal of illegals and facilitate their deportation. Sure, such things, like anything else, could be used for nefarious purposes, but this is not for the "secret" purposes of detaining American citizens or anyone for political reasons as the media vaguely implies. 2) Cartoons - To imply that the origin of the anomalous cartoons used by the Danish Imams were CIA contrived measures to enrage the Muslim community is ridiculous. The Danish Imams did this to enrage their own people as it is "their" support which is waning. 3) Jill Carroll - To imply that the CIA is "controlling" Ms. Carroll's kidnappers to drum up waning support for the war is absurd. Common sense dictates that this provides more fodder for the opposition to the war than anything. Hence my remark, is this the incredibly stupid CIA or the fantastically smart CIA? There are many and varied reasons to be angry at our government that are legitimate and well founded. To make phantasmagorical, conspiratorial stuff up only detracts from those legitimate issues. Furthermore, I understand it's hard for you to see (you know, "forest for the trees" and all that), but trolls are people who show up new in blogs and immediately display a manner contrary to that of the majority of the group, calling people names, disseminating unproven and unfounded conspiracies, displaying moral superiority and propagating thoroughly debunked or non-factual information. Contrary to your belief, those of us who come here regularly and have for a long time are educated objective people. We don't fall for every conspiracy that comes down the pipe and prefer fact over fiction or imagination. Of course, I could just be a CIA puppet planted here to deflect criticism and obfuscate the issues here. Or I could be a "blind Bush supporter" who can't tell truth from fiction as I lockstep to my master's command and the Zionist conspiracy. Or I could simply be a realist. Whatever the case, your opinion of me means nothing.

105 I am not going to rise to the bait being trolled by those who wish to divert the topic of this thread. I don't care who the trolls "really are", and I not going waste my time speculating upon their motives. Such childish nonsense is a complete waste of time. I hope that Jill Carroll will be released unharmed very soon. I think such hope is still well within reason, and to me her safe return is of primary importance. I look forward to hearing some good news about her very soon.

106 Tralfamadorians, Annanuki or Illuminati anyone? Anyone? Anyone? Beuller?.............Beuller?..............Beuller? Carroll?.............Carroll?...............Carroll?

107 hahaha. Divert the topic of the thread? Oh, that's rich. Your hypocrisy is amazing.

108 I wonder what the Nazis called their "detention facilities"? I wonder also what official explanation the Nazis gave for their construction? The Nazis put on a good show for those sent to check out their "detention centers". That much is known. New prisoners, who hadn't already wasted away from starvation or showed obvious signs of torture, were given nice new prison jumpers and good food, to show the visiting investigators how well the "detainees" were being treated. Why even the acronym ICE is friendly isn't it? So how could anyone even think the new camps, being built all over the country right now, are anything but good wholesome mass detention centers? Oh dear. It just occurred to me how they could. They think. They may also remember history.

109 Ashville Citizen Times http://citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060226/COLUMNISTS08/60224032&SearchID=73237066393288 Detention centers for who, exactly? by Jim Buchanan February 26, 2006 6:00 am Columnist Tom Hennessy beat me to the punch on today’s topic in a column published Feb. 3 in the Press-Telegram of Long Beach, Calif. The points he made also occurred to me, and they bear repeating. Here’s the story: In late January Kellogg, Brown and Root (KBR), a subsidiary of Halliburton, was awarded a contract valued at up to $385 million to build detention centers. On U.S. soil. The story didn’t make much of a dent. It landed on A7 of the New York Times, and was barely picked up anywhere else. A KBR press release says: “The contract, which is effective immediately, provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to augment existing Immigration and Custom Enforcement Detention and Removal Operations (DRO) Program facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs. The contingency support contract provides for planning and, if required, initiation of specific engineering, construction and logistics support tasks to establish, operate and maintain one or more expansion facilities. The contract may also provide migrant detention support to other U.S. Government organizations in the event of an immigration emergency, as well as the development of a plan to react to a national emergency, such as a natural disaster. In the event of a natural disaster, the contractor could be tasked with providing housing for ICE personnel performing law enforcement functions in support of relief efforts.’’ Apparently if the centers aren’t built, KBR won’t get paid. And apparently, this is a contingency contract, not a commitment, that could cover the next five years. KBR and Halliburton — Vice President Dick Cheney’s old firm — have been rolling in taxpayer dollars of late. KBR does a lot of work in Iraq, things like feeding the troops. They’ve also got some experience in building detention centers. The facilities at Guantanamo Bay come to mind. Hennessy called for details about the proposal from elected representatives in California (a call I’ll repeat to those from North Carolina). He finished his column with this: “Let’s not have it said, years from now, that no one ever questioned this.’’ Hear hear, brother Tom. What questions? Well, let’s look back at that press release. “In the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S. …’’ An optimist would say that’s wise planning. A pessimist would wonder just what could spark such an influx and why we should be planning to build detention centers. A true cynic would wonder just what constitutes an emergency influx. There are, after all, an estimated 10 million illegal immigrants currently in the country. Anyway, this thing sounds like a plan to deal with immigration. But it could … “support the rapid development of new programs.’’ And those would be … what, exactly? The bottom line here is that there are plans ready to build large detention facilities in the United States. Not “illegal immigrant relocation centers,’’ not “emergency housing facilities.’’ Detention centers. This at a time when the government seems bent on probing and prying into the lives of Americans — while feeling no obligation to let citizens in on what’s going on. Say another terror strike hits; perhaps everyone on the “no-fly’’ list should be put in camps. Thing is, people on that list have included infants, at least one U.S. senator, and the chairman of the House Transportation Committee. Maybe I should be fitted for a tinfoil hat. Maybe this is no big deal. Whatever. This stuff gives me the willies. Hennessy is right. We have to ask questions. We especially have to ask them in an era of fear.

110 Can we get any alien world domination theories in here. Farrakhan's always talking about the mother ship hovering just outside our atmosphere. If we ad the twelve supreme court justices to the six members of the board of governors on the federal reserve board we have eighteen. But if we throw in Jill Carroll it becomes Farrakhan's ancient evil number nineteen he's always complaining about. That's gotta mean something. Muwahahahaha You know, I have one simple request. And that is to have sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their heads! Now evidently my cycloptic colleague informs me that that cannot be done. Ah, would you remind me what I pay you people for, honestly? Throw me a bone here! What do we have?

111 This is both the current and genuine US ARMY document: Army Regulation 210–35 Installations Civilian Inmate Labor Program Headquarters Department of the Army Washington, DC 14 January 2005 UNCLASSIFIED ----------------------------------------------- SUMMARY of CHANGE AR 210–35 Civilian Inmate Labor Program This rapid action revision dated 14 January 2005-- o Assigns responsibilities to Headquarters, Installation Management Agency (para 1-4j). o Makes administrative and editorial changes (throughout). This new regulation dated 9 December 1997 o Provides Army policy and guidance for establishing civilian inmate labor programs and civilian prison camps on Army installations. o Discusses sources of Federal and State civilian inmate labor. ------------------------------------------------ Headquarters Department of the Army Washington, DC 14 January 2005 Installations Civilian Inmate Labor Program *Army Regulation 210–35 Effective 14 February 2005 History. This publication is a rapid action r e v i s i o n . T h e p o r t i o n s a f f e c t e d b y t h i s r a p i d a c t i o n r e v i s i o n a r e l i s t e d i n t h e summary of change. S u m m a r y . T h i s r e g u l a t i o n p r o v i d e s guidance for establishing and managing civilian inmate labor programs on Army installations. It provides guidance on establishing prison camps on Army installat i o n s . I t a d d r e s s e s r e c o r d k e e p i n g a n d reporting incidents related to the Civilian Inmate Labor Program and/or prison camp administration. Applicability. This regulation applies to t h e A c t i v e A r m y , t h e A r m y N a t i o n a l Guard of the United States, and the U.S. A r m y R e s e r v e u n l e s s o t h e r w i s e s t a t e d . During mobilization, the Assistant Chief of Staff for Installation Management may modify chapters and policies contained in this regulation. Proponent and exception authority. The proponent of this regulation is the Assistant Chief of Staff for Installation Management. The proponent has the authority to approve exceptions or waivers to this regulation that are consistent with controlling law and regulations. The proponent may delegate this approval authority, in writing, to a division chief within the proponent agency or a direct reporting unit or field operating agency of the proponent agency in the grade of colonel or the civilian equivalent. Activities may request a waiver to this regulation by prov i d i n g j u s t i f i c a t i o n t h a t i n c l u d e s a f u l l analysis of the expected benefits and must i n c l u d e f o r m a l r e v i e w b y t h e a c t i v i t y ’ s senior legal officer. All waiver requests will be endorsed by the commander or s e n i o r l e a d e r o f t h e r e q u e s t i n g a c t i v i t y and forwarded through their higher headquarters to the policy proponent. Refer to AR 25–30 for specific guidance. Army management control process. This regulation contains management control provisions and identifies key management controls that must be evaluated. S u p p l e m e n t a t i o n . S u p p l e m e n t a t i o n o f this regulation and establishment of command and local forms are prohibited without prior approval from Assistant Chief of S t a f f f o r I n s t a l l a t i o n M a n a g e m e n t (DAIM–ZA), 600 Army Pentagon, Washington, DC 20310–0600. Suggested improvements. Users are invited to send comments and suggested improvements on DA Form 2028 (Recomm e n d e d C h a n g e s t o P u b l i c a t i o n s a n d Blank Forms) directly to Assistant Chief o f S t a f f f o r I n s t a l l a t i o n M a n a g e m e n t (DAIM–MD), 600 Army Pentagon, Washington, DC 20310–0600. Distribution. This publication is available in electronic media only and is intended for command levels A, B, C, D, and E for the Active Army, Army National Guard of the United States, and the U.S. Army Reserve. Contents (Listed by paragraph and page number) Chapter 1 Introduction, page 1 Purpose  1–1, page 1 References  1–2, page 1 Explanation of abbreviations and terms  1–3, page 1 Responsibilities  1–4, page 1 Civilian inmate labor programs  1–5, page 2 The process  1–6, page 2 Chapter 2 Establishing Installation Civilian Inmate Labor Programs, page 4 Policy statement  2–1, page 4 *This regulation supersedes AR 210–35, dated 9 December 1997. AR 210–35  14 January 2005 i UNCLASSIFIED ----------------------------------------------- Contents—Continued Negotiating with corrections systems representatives  2–2, page 4 Governing provisions  2–3, page 4 Procedures for establishing installation civilian inmate labor programs  2–4, page 7 Chapter 3 Establishing Civilian Inmate Prison Camps on Army Installations, page 8 Policy statement  3–1, page 8 Negotiating with correctional systems representatives to establish prison camps  3–2, page 8 Governing criteria civilian inmate prison camps  3–3, page 8 Governing provisions for operating civilian inmate prison camps on Army installations  3–4, page 9 Procedures for establishing a civilian inmate prison camp on Army installations  3–5, page 9 Interservice, interagency, or interdepartmental support agreements  3–6, page 10 Chapter 4 Reporting and Recordkeeping, page 10 Incident reports  4–1, page 10 Media coverage  4–2, page 10 Recordkeeping  4–3, page 11 Appendixes A. References, page 12 B. Memorandum of Agreement Format, page 13 C. Sample Inmate Labor Plan, page 19 D. Management Control Evaluation Checklist, page 23 E. 18 USC 4125(A), and Executive Order 11755, page 23 Figure List Figure 1–1: Civilian Inmate Labor Program process, page 3 Figure B–1: Sample format for a memorandum of agreement, page 14 Figure B–1: Sample format for a memorandum of agreement—continued, page 15 Figure B–1: Sample format for a memorandum of agreement—continued, page 16 Figure B–1: Sample format for a memorandum of agreement—continued, page 17 Figure B–1: Sample format for a memorandum of agreement—continued, page 18 Figure B–1: Sample format for a memorandum of agreement—continued, page 19 Figure C–1: Sample Inmate Labor Plan—continued, page 20 Figure C–1: Sample Inmate Labor Plan—continued, page 21 Figure C–1: Sample Inmate Labor Plan—continued, page 22 Glossary Index ii AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- Chapter 1 Introduction 1–1. Purpose This regulation provides Army policy and guidance for establishing civilian inmate labor programs and civilian prison camps on Army installations. Sources of civilian inmate labor are limited to on– and off–post Federal corrections facilities, State and/or local corrections facilities operating from on–post prison camps pursuant to leases under Section 2667, Title 10, United States Code (10 USC 2667), and off–post State corrections facilities participating in the demonstration project authorized under Section 1065, Public Law (PL) 103–337. Otherwise, State and/or local inmate labor from off–post corrections facilities is currently excluded from this program. 1–2. References Required and related publications and prescribed and referenced forms are listed in appendix A. 1–3. Explanation of abbreviations and terms Abbreviations and special terms used in this regulation are explained in the glossary. 1–4. Responsibilities a. The Assistant Secretary of the Army (Installations and Environment) (ASA(I&E)) will— (1) Provide policy guidance and resolve policy issues. (2) Provide overall program direction. (3) Serve as approval authority for establishing civilian inmate labor programs and civilian inmate prison camps on Army installations. (4) Provide procedural guidance on real property acquisition, management, and disposal relating to establishing prison camps on Army installations. b. The Assistant Secretary of the Army (Financial Management and Comptroller) (ASA(FM&C)) will— (1) Provide reimbursement policy guidance on interservice, interagency, and/or interdepartmental support agreements between installations and corrections facilities to establish civilian inmate prison camps on Army installations. (2) Provide reimbursement policy for civilian inmate labor utilization, other than reimbursement for inmate labor itself. (3) Review all actions pertaining to the Civilian Inmate Labor Program for compliance with Army financial management guidance. c. The Chief of Public Affairs will— (1) Monitor media coverage on installation civilian inmate labor programs and civilian inmate prison camps on Army installations. (2) Coordinate all proposed media coverage of potential national interest concerning the Army Civilian Inmate Labor Program and civilian inmate prison camps with the Assistant Chief of Staff for Installation Management (ACSIM) prior to release. d. The Assistant Secretary of the Army (Manpower and Reserve Affairs) (ASA(M&RA)) will— (1) Provide policy guidance on inmate labor utilization issues pertaining to existing in–house resources. (2) Provide policy guidance and procedures for apprising installation government employee labor unions of proposals to use civilian inmate labor and, for existing installation civilian inmate labor programs, apprising these unions of changes in agreements with corrections facilities governing inmate use. e. The Assistant Chief of Staff for Installation Management will— (1) Execute the Army Civilian Inmate Labor Program. (2) Develop and implement policy and procedures for using civilian inmate labor and establishing civilian inmate prison camps on Army installations. (3) Serve as the focal point for staff coordination on issues pertaining to the Civilian Inmate Labor Program and/or civilian inmate prison camps. (4) Conduct a program review in accordance with AR 11–2 once every 5 years. (5) Provide policy guidance on functions for which civilian inmate labor can be used. (6) Review reports of availability pertaining to granting the use of Army real property. (7) Immediately inform the Chief, Legislative Liaison of approval of civilian inmate labor programs and civilian inmate prison camps on Army installations to facilitate notification to interested members of Congress. f. The General Counsel and the Judge Advocate General will review all actions pertaining to the Civilian Inmate Labor Program and civilian inmate prison camps for compliance with applicable laws and regulations. g. The Chief of Engineers will, in those cases involving use of Army real property, handle all matters pertaining to granting the use of Army real property. h. The Provost Marshal General will— 1 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- (1) Monitor reporting of serious incidents, that is, walkaways, escapes, riots, disturbances, and any criminal activity by civilian inmates occurring on the installation under AR 190–40. (2) Provide policy on law enforcement operations on Army installations. i. Heads of other Army Staff and Army Secretariat agencies will provide advice, as necessary, on aspects of the Civilian Inmate Labor Program within their functional areas of responsibility. j. The Director, Headquarters, Installation Management Agency (HQ, IMA) will— (1) Ensure that their installations participating in civilian inmate labor programs comply with 18 USC 4125(a) and other applicable laws governing civilian inmate labor, Executive Order (EO) 11755, and all provisions of this regulation. (2) Review and endorse installation memoranda of agreement (MOA) and Inmate Labor Plans to establish civilian inmate labor programs and proposals to establish civilian inmate prison camps on Army installations, and forward such MOA, plans and proposals to Headquarters, Department of the Army (HQDA) for approval. (3) Review and endorse installation requests for changes to Army Civilian Inmate Labor Program policy. (4) Annually review installation civilian inmate labor programs against the key management controls listed in appendix D. k. Installation commanders will— (1) Comply with 18 USC 4125(a) and other applicable laws governing civilian inmate labor, EO 11755, and all provisions of this regulation. (2) Submit the following through command channels to Headquarters, Installation Management Activity (SFIM–PL), 2511 Jefferson Davis Highway, Taylor Building, Arlington, VA 22202–3926: (a) Memoranda of agreement and Inmate Labor Plans to establish civilian inmate labor programs. (b) Proposals to establish civilian inmate prison camps. (c) Written notification of termination of civilian inmate labor programs. (d) Revisions to existing memoranda of agreement requiring changes to Army Civilian Inmate Labor Program policy. (e) Requests for guidance on any Civilian Inmate Labor Program situation that is not addressed in this regulation. (3) Annually review their civilian inmate labor programs to determine if their programs continue to generate cost avoidance. (4) Annually review their civilian inmate labor programs against the key management controls identified in appendix D. (5) Report all contacts with State or local corrections system on possible use of civilian inmate labor, facilities, land, or installation through command channels to Headquarters, Installation Management Activity (SFIM–PL), 2511 Jefferson Davis Highway, Taylor Building, Arlington, VA 22202–3926. 1–5. Civilian inmate labor programs a. Civilian inmate labor programs benefit both the Army and corrections systems by— (1) Providing a source of labor at no direct labor cost to Army installations to accomplish tasks that would not be possible otherwise due to the manning and funding constraints under which the Army operates. (2) Providing meaningful work for inmates and, in some cases, additional space to alleviate overcrowding in nearby corrections facilities. (3) Making cost–effective use of buildings and land not otherwise being used. b. Except for the 3 exceptions listed in paragraph 2–1 d below, installation civilian inmate labor programs may use civilian inmate labor only from Federal corrections facilities located either off or on the installation. c. Keys to operating an effective civilian inmate labor program on Army installations include— (1) Establishing a comprehensive lease agreement, interservice, interagency, and/or interdepartmental support agreement (ISA), and/or memoranda of agreement with the corrections facility. (2) Developing a cooperative working relationship between installation personnel and corrections facility personnel. (3) Working closely with installation government employee labor unions to ensure union leaders understand the program and have current information on program status. (4) Training all installation personnel involved in the operation or administration of the program frequently. (5) Developing a public affairs plan informing the installation and the surrounding local community of the program and work projects assigned to civilian inmate labor. 1–6. The process Figure 1–1 diagrams the Army Civilian Inmate Labor Program process. The flowchart reads top down and left to right, starting with the decision to establish both a prison camp and an inmate labor program (the diamond–shaped box in the upper left corner of the diagram labeled “prison camp inmate labor?”). The diamond–shaped boxes are decision nodes; the rectangular boxes are steps in the process to establish a civilian inmate labor program, establish a civilian inmate 2 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- prison camp on post, or do both. Follow the arrows through the flowchart. Chapters 2 and 3 address procedures for establishing a civilian inmate labor program and/or on–post civilian inmate prison camp. Figure 1–1. Civilian Inmate Labor Program process 3 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- Chapter 2 Establishing Installation Civilian Inmate Labor Programs 2–1. Policy statement a. With a few exceptions, the Army’s Civilian Inmate Labor Program is currently limited to using inmates from facilities under the control of the Federal Bureau of Prisons (FBOP). Section 4125(a), Title 18, United States Code allows the Attorney General to make available to other Federal agencies the services of Federal inmates and defines the types of services inmates can perform. The FBOP provides civilian inmate labor free of charge to the Army. b. The Army is not interested in, nor can afford, any relationship with a corrections facility if that relationship stipulates payment for civilian inmate labor. Installation civilian inmate labor program operating costs must not exceed the cost avoidance generated from using inmate labor (see para 4–3 for a discussion of cost avoidance). c. Guidelines in this regulation for establishing installation civilian inmate labor programs pertain to negotiating with Federal corrections facilities only. Currently, there is no overarching law that addresses establishing State and/or local civilian inmate labor programs on Department of Defense (DOD) military facilities when these programs use inmates from off–post corrections facilities. d. However, there are 3 exceptions to using State or local civilian inmate labor from off–post corrections facilities— (1) Section 1065, PL 103–337, allows the Army to conduct a demonstration project. This demonstration project tests the feasibility of providing prerelease employment training to nonviolent offenders in a State corrections facility. The demonstration project is limited to 3 Army installations. The 3 Army installations participating in the demonstration project may use inmates from an off–post State corrections facility. (2) Army National Guard units leasing facilities from the Army or occupying State–owned land or facilities may use inmates from an off–post State and/or local corrections facility. (3) The prohibition against use of State and/or local civilian inmate labor from off–post corrections facilities does not apply to Civil Works projects where the Army has statutory authority to accept voluntary contributions in the form of services from State or local governments. If contributed, inmate services are combined with materials or services paid for with Federally appropriated funds; the use of civilian inmate labor must also comply with the provisions of EO 11755. The use of civilian inmate labor under these exceptions must still comply with the requirements of this regulation. e. Installation commanders must address, in memoranda of agreement with the corrections facilities, all items in the governing provisions (para 2–3 below). f. Section 4125(a), Title 18, United States Code and EO 11755 are incorporated into this regulation at appendix E. 2–2. Negotiating with corrections systems representatives Installation commanders may initiate discussions with FBOP representatives concerning use of civilian inmate labor on Army installations, subject to the governing provisions listed in paragraph 2–3. Installation commanders are not authorized to negotiate with representatives of State or local corrections systems or governmental agencies regarding civilian inmate labor from off–post corrections facilities (see para 3–2). 2–3. Governing provisions The following provisions govern the Army Civilian Inmate Labor Program and must be reflected in agreements with corrections facilities concerning the use of civilian inmate labor on Army installations: a. No use of land or facilities. No use of land or facilities on installations is involved in executing civilian inmate labor programs, except for designated work, latrine, eating, and vending areas. (1) Installation commanders will establish areas where inmates are prohibited from entering, and any other restrictions that are deemed necessary. These areas will be outlined in the memoranda of agreement between the installation and the corrections facility. The intent is to preclude fraternization between inmates and civilians, military personnel and/or, family members and to ensure their safety at all times. Army policy on prohibited areas is to restrict inmates to the on–post civilian inmate prison camp (where applicable), work areas, latrines, and vending machine areas. (2) Inmates will not enter or work in or near family housing areas at any time. (3) Inmates will not work in day care centers, youth services and/or school–age service centers, schools, recreation centers, and/or libraries, or similar facilities, except when these facilities are closed to the public, or when the likelihood of inmate contact with the general military community or family members is remote. (4) Inmates will not work in areas where medical supplies (drugs, syringes, and so forth) are stored unless the medical supplies are secured and the inmates are under constant view by Army personnel. (5) Inmates will not work in areas where firearms and/or ammunition are sold or stored, nor in areas where alcoholic beverages are sold, stored, or served. b. Nominal costs. The program must be without direct labor cost (for inmate labor itself) or expense to the 4 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- Department of the Army except for nominal costs for equipment, materials, and supplies used in inmate labor details, program administration, telephone calls to corrections facilities, lunch time meals, transporting inmates to and from corrections facilities, and other similar costs addressed in paragraph 4–3, below. Inmates participating in the program will not be recompensed from Department of Army appropriated or nonappropriated funds. (1) Inmates are not Department of the Army employees and are not regarded as such. Inmates must not be referred to as employees. They will not be paid from Department of the Army funds, nor receive any personal or private gratuity for work accomplished or services rendered. Interservice, interagency, or interdepartmental support agreements and/or memoranda of agreement with the corrections facility must not create any appearance of employment of inmates. (2) Installation commanders have authority to determine and absorb nominal costs associated with their civilian inmate labor programs. Nominal costs are minor costs incidental to civilian inmate labor program operations. Nominal costs may be costs for equipment, materials, and supplies used in inmate labor details, program administration, telephone calls to corrections facilities, lunch time meals, transporting inmates to and from corrections facilities, and other similar costs addressed in paragraph 4–3, below. Installations may absorb nominal costs associated with their program on a nonreimbursable basis. However, installation commanders will not reimburse the corrections facility for inmate labor, either as payment of funds or establishing credits in memoranda of agreement or ISAs as payment for inmate labor. (3) Inmates are not allowed to operate Army vehicles or equipment unless they possess the necessary valid operator’s licenses, have been given proper training in vehicle operation and safety by Army personnel in accordance with AR 600–55, and are authorized to operate the vehicle or equipment by both the installation and the corrections facility. (4) Operation of Army vehicles by inmates is permitted only when absolutely necessary for completion of work. Inmates will not be permitted to operate vehicles unless in a secured area or under direct observation of installation or corrections facility personnel. Training to operate Army unique vehicles and/or equipment should be provided by the Army. (5) No personal vehicles will be used to transport inmates to and/or from corrections facilities, or to and/or from work sites. (6) Enforcement of inventory, control, issuance, and return of hand tools and equipment provided for inmate labor details must be controlled by installation plans and/or standing procedures. c. Services provided to installations. Services provided to the installation must be in accordance with 18 USC 4125(a). Such services are constructing or repairing roads; clearing, maintaining, or reforesting public land; building levees; or constructing or repairing any other public way or works financed wholly or in major part by funds a p p r o p r i a t e d b y C o n g r e s s . I n m a t e s m a y p e r f o r m c u s t o d i a l t a s k s , b u i l d i n g d e m o l i t i o n , d e b r i s r e m o v a l , m o w i n g , landscaping, painting, carpentry, trash pickup, transporting debris to and from recycling centers, and other similar activities. No other services are allowed by law. d. Work performed. Work performed by inmates will not interfere nor conflict with approved projects for which resources have been allocated and funds made available for performance by contract or Army civilian labor force, or with work which can be accomplished within authorized personnel ceilings. The Civilian Inmate Labor Program was created to provide installation commanders with an alternate labor source to perform valid requirements. Civilian inmate labor does not compete with existing in–house or contractor resources. e. Participants. Only inmates classified as minimum level security will participate in the Civilian Inmate Labor Program. Minimum level security inmates do not need constant guard. Corrections facilities will be responsible for ensuring that only minimum level security inmates participate in the inmate labor program and for selecting inmate participants. (1) Memoranda of agreement with the corrections facility will state that the installation commander will direct the removal of any inmate deemed undesirable or detrimental in any way to the mission, soldiers, family members, or civilian employees of the installation. (2) Under no circumstances will the following types of inmates be permitted in the Civilian Inmate Labor Program: (a) A person in whom there is a significant public interest as determined by the corrections facility superintendent in coordination with the installation commander. (b) A person who has been a significant management problem in their current corrections facility or in another facility. (c) A principal organized crime figure. (d) An inmate convicted of a sex offense or whose criminal history includes such conduct. (e) An inmate convicted of a violent crime or whose criminal history includes such conduct. (f) An inmate convicted of the sale or intent to distribute illegal drugs who held a leadership position in any drug conspiracy, or has been involved with drugs within the last 3 years while in prison. (g) An escape risk. (h) An inmate who poses a threat to the general public as determined by the corrections facility superintendent in coordination with the installation commander. 5 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- (i) An inmate declared or found insane or mentally incompetent by a court, administrative proceeding, or physician, or under treatment for a mental disease or disorder. (j) An inmate convicted of arson. (k) A Federal inmate convicted while on active duty, presently serving a sentence for that conviction. f. Army personnel. Department of the Army personnel will not be involved with custodial aspects of inmate labor details. (a) The Warden and/or Administrator of the local corrections facility is charged with the responsibility and accountability for the control and custody of inmates on labor details at all times. Any use of Army military or civilian personnel to guard, control, discipline, or otherwise exercise custodial supervision is prohibited. (b) Army military or civilian personnel may oversee the work to be performed by inmates or inmate labor details. Oversight is defined as telling inmates what they must do by specifying work to be accomplished. This oversight includes training inmates in performing assigned work, using special equipment, and safety precautions. Oversight also includes showing inmates the location of the work site and performing quality assurance inspections of inmate work to determine if the work performed meets quality, quantity, and timeliness specifications. Oversight may also include requiring inmates to sign time cards at intervals established by the Warden and/or Administrator of the local corrections facility. If an inmate cannot be located to sign a time card or is otherwise found missing from an assigned work area, Army personnel will immediately notify the local corrections facility point of contact staff supervisor and the installation military police. g. Property damage. Generally, any interference with or damage to property under control of the Department of the Army, incident to the execution of inmate labor details, will be promptly corrected by the corrections facility as directed by the installation commander. However, the installation commander has the prerogative to decide first to thoroughly investigate the incident prior to directing the corrections facility to correct the situation; if the installation commander opts to first investigate the incident, both Army and corrections facility personnel will participate in the investigation. If it is determined that the damage or interference resulting in a loss was caused by an inmate or corrections personnel, both the installation commander and the corrections facility superintendent will be briefed on the findings, and the installation commander may— (1) Request the corrections facility to promptly correct the situation. (2) Direct that the inmate and/or corrections personnel be removed from the installation. (3) Direct that the program with the corrections facility be discontinued. (4) Decide on any combination of these options. This does not include damages, breakage, or breakdowns occurring to equipment or other property due to normal use, or poor and/or unsafe operational condition. (a) All memoranda of agreement with the corrections facility must contain a clause addressing how property damage and/or interference will be redressed. An example of this clause is included at appendix B, paragraph 5e. The aforementioned clause has been used successfully in memoranda of agreement with the FBOP. It is offered as suggested terminology. There is no specific requirement that the corrections facility be held automatically responsible for any loss or damage; this should be resolved on a case by case basis by the installation commander. (b) Investigations may be conducted through AR 15–6 procedures or a report of survey. h. Operation. The Civilian Inmate Labor Program will operate in such a manner that it will not interfere with the operation and/or mission of the installation as determined by the installation commander. i. Safety. Inmate accident compensation procedures set forth at Section 301, Title 28, Code of Federal Regulations (28 CFR 301) apply to all work performed by FBOP inmates. However, installation commanders should check with their legal advisor to determine potential liability for injuries, accidents, or deaths caused by FBOP inmates or corrections facility personnel. (1) Corrections facilities have their own safety program and will generally provide safety training to all civilian inmates participating in the inmate labor program. Installations may provide safety equipment; for example, shoes, goggles, hard hats, and so forth or negotiate this with the corrections facility. Installations providing this equipment will ensure that the equipment is in safe and serviceable condition. (2) Installation personnel will provide safety training to inmates and inmate labor details and corrections facility personnel specific to the type of work being performed. Such safety training will also cover accident and/or hazardous working conditions reporting. Installations should provide any required special protective equipment, materials, tools, and supplies in safe and serviceable condition. (3) Inmate training must include safety instruction as required by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) in 29 CFR 1910 which establishes specific training requirements and places the responsibility for such safety training on the employer (the corrections facility). Inmates will report for work details with this OSHA required training already completed. (4) Inmates will not be assigned work which is inherently dangerous, or of high risk; for example, hazardous materials cleanup, firefighting, and so forth. j. Emergency medical care. The Army will provide emergency medical care and first aid. In the event of an on–post life threatening situation, the local military hospital will respond with emergency medical service, or the installation will provide transportation to the nearest available hospital. The corrections facility will be promptly notified of such 6 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- medical emergencies and/or serious illnesses. The corrections facility will reimburse the Army for all emergency care costs incurred on behalf of the civilian inmates and/or corrections facility personnel. The corrections facility will provide routine medical care for civilian inmates. k. Security. The corrections facility retains control and custody of the civilian inmates at all times. In addition to defining areas off limits to inmates, installations should consult with and incorporate corrections facility security requirements into their memoranda of agreement. For example, the FBOP does not allow inmates to have access to or use installation phone lines, fax machines, computers and/or computer systems, nor to accept a gratuity of any kind at any time. Also, inmates will not be used in areas where classified information, personnel records, medical records, or other confidential or sensitive data is discussed or is in plain view. Inmates working in areas where such information is locked or secured will be under constant view by Army personnel. l. Training of Army personnel. The corrections facility will provide training and indoctrination to all Army personnel who will oversee inmate work. Training will cover inmate discipline, staff conduct, inmate accountability, and corrections facility safety program. This training is mandatory. This training will be provided at no cost to the Army and at least on an annual basis. m. Public affairs. Installations will develop a public affairs plan that informs the installation and the surrounding local community of the program and work projects assigned to civilian inmate labor. This will largely mitigate potential negative repercussions from using and having inmates present on the installation. Press releases involving inmates will be issued only by the corrections facility, in coordination with the installation public affairs office, as corrections facility officials are responsible for protecting the privacy and other rights of inmates. Press releases regarding the civilian inmate labor program should be coordinated with the corrections facility superintendent. One copy of the press release will be routed through command channels to HQDA, Assistant Chief of Staff for Installation Management, Plans and Operations Division (DAIMMD), and HQDA, Office of the Chief of Public Affairs, Public Communications Division (SAPAPCD). Press releases do not require HQDA approval prior to release. (1) Media representatives should not be allowed to interview inmates nor take photographs of inmates without the corrections facility’s and installation public affairs office specific approval. (2) Requests for interviews or photographs of inmates should be referred to the corrections facility superintendent and the installation public affairs office. 2–4. Procedures for establishing installation civilian inmate labor programs Procedures for establishing installation civilian inmate labor programs apply to both off–post corrections facilities and on–post civilian inmate prison camps. a. Upon finalizing negotiations with the corrections facility, the installation commander and corrections facility superintendent will prepare a proposed memorandum of agreement, using the format at appendix B, covering all aspects of the Civilian Inmate Labor Program under consideration. This agreement will include, but is not limited to, the governing provisions in paragraph 2–3, above. In addition, the memoranda of agreement must include provisions for reporting serious incidents and negative media coverage, addressed in paragraphs 4–1 and 4–2, and the projected cost avoidance from using civilian inmates addressed in paragraph 4–3, below. b. Installations will prepare an Inmate Labor Plan governing administration and operation of the inmate labor program on the installation. This plan will include, but is not limited to, procedures for assigning inmate labor details, oversight and/or monitoring responsibilities, procedures for requesting inmate labor details, training of personnel involved with the program, required security and/or safety measures, environmental considerations, and any installation reporting requirements. Inmate Labor Plan format is determined locally. c. Memoranda of agreement and/or Inmate Labor Plans will be reviewed as needed by the installation commander and corrections facility superintendent to incorporate changes in Army Civilian Inmate Labor Program policy and other factors affecting the terms and conditions of these documents. d. The installation Staff Judge Advocate (SJA) will review the memoranda of agreement and Inmate Labor Plan for legal sufficiency and to ensure that inmates will not be performing functions contrary to law. Other installation functional proponents will review the memoranda of agreement and Inmate Labor Plan from a functional perspective. e. Installation civilian personnel offices will inform installation Government employee labor unions of proposals to use civilian inmates and comply with any bargaining obligation under 5 USC 7101 et. seq. (Federal Labor Management Relations Statute). f. Requests to establish civilian inmate labor programs will be submitted through command channels to Headquarters, Installation Management Activity (SFIM–PL), 2511 Jefferson Davis Highway, Taylor Building, Arlington, VA 22202–3926. Requests must include HQ, IMA endorsement and copies of the proposed memoranda of agreement and Inmate Labor Plan. The HQ, IMA endorsement includes an SJA review of the memoranda of agreement and Inmate Labor Plan for legal sufficiency. Other HQ, IMA functional proponents will review the memoranda of agreement and Inmate Labor Plan from a functional perspective. g. Installations will not implement civilian inmate labor programs, nor incorporate revisions to existing memoranda of agreement and/or Inmate Labor Plans requiring changes to Army Civilian Inmate Labor Program policy without 7 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- HQDA approval. Appendix B contains the format for installation memoranda of agreement; appendix C contains a sample Inmate Labor Plan. Chapter 3 Establishing Civilian Inmate Prison Camps on Army Installations 3–1. Policy statement It is not Army policy to solicit offers from correctional systems to establish civilian inmate prison camps on Army installations. Nevertheless, the Army recognizes that these correctional systems may approach installations to lease land on which to build corrections facilities, or to lease unoccupied facilities. The Army will evaluate requests to establish civilian inmate prison camps on Army installations on a case by case basis. These prison camps will house minimum and low security inmates, as determined by the correctional systems. However, the Army’s primary purpose for allowing establishment of prison camps on Army installations is to use the resident nonviolent civilian inmate labor pool to work on the leased portions of the installation. 3–2. Negotiating with correctional systems representatives to establish prison camps Installation commanders will not initiate formal discussions with correctional systems representatives to establish civilian inmate prison camps on their installations. Installation commanders are not authorized to negotiate with these representatives without first obtaining HQDA approval to proceed. Once approval is granted, installation commanders may enter into negotiations, subject to the provisions of this chapter. a. Establishing civilian inmate prison camps on Army installations is separate from establishing civilian inmate labor programs, as discussed in chapter 2 above. Establishing civilian inmate prison camps does not automatically institute a civilian inmate labor program. Procedures for establishing civilian inmate labor programs, incident to establishing civilian inmate prison camps, still apply. b. As noted in paragraph 2–1, above, civilian inmate labor programs are limited to use of inmates under the control of the FBOP. Accordingly, establishment of a State civilian inmate prison camp under a lease pursuant to 10 USC 2667 does not permit the creation of a civilian inmate labor program. c. Section 1342, Title 31, United States Code precludes the United States Government from accepting voluntary services unless specifically allowed by statute. The Army has determined that accepting inmate labor with no associated cost for inmate labor is equivalent to accepting voluntary services from corrections facilities. This precludes using State and local civilian inmates from off–post corrections facilities. However, inmate labor programs using State and local civilian inmates from on–post prison camps is allowed. Section 2667, Title 10, United States Code governing leases of DOD property allows acceptance of inmate labor as payment in kind for real property leased to correctional systems for use as prison camps in an amount equivalent to the fair market value of the lease interest; however, such labor is limited to maintenance, protection, repair, improvement, and restoration activities on the leased facilities. 3–3. Governing criteria civilian inmate prison camps The following criteria apply to establishing civilian inmate prison camps on Army installations: a. Since the correctional system has full responsibility and authority over the use and occupation of the civilian inmate prison camp, all claims for property damage or personal injury arising therein are the responsibility of the correctional system, not the Army. b. The installation commander and HQ, IMA must assess the impacts that the prison and prison population will have on the installation, military mission, and installation population. At a minimum, the installation commander must consider mission security, possible impacts on military families living on–post, and community concerns. c. Prison facility sites should be separated from the general installation population to the maximum extent possible. At a minimum, prison facilities should not be located in close proximity to family housing, dormitories, or community support facilities. d. Prison facilities should not be located in close proximity to critical mission areas where surveillance of activities could become a source of intelligence data. e. Location of prison facilities should be in keeping with the requirements and objectives of installation comprehensive planning concepts and environmental considerations at the individual installation. f. Civilian inmate prison camps will not be collocated with military confinement facilities. g. Using installation facilities is acceptable when buildings are scheduled for demolition, or are not needed for current or programmed mission requirements and can be rehabilitated. h. The correctional system will provide the primary source of funding for establishing, operating, and maintaining prison facilities. i. Support and services provided between the Army installation and a Federal civilian inmate prison camp will be delineated in a formal ISA in accordance with Department of Defense Instruction (DODI) 4000.19. There should be no 8 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- need for any reimbursement policy where State corrections facilities are concerned because the cost of doing business with a State corrections facility should be factored into the lease agreement. j. Correctional systems’ use of Army real property will be in accordance with AR 405–80. k. AR 42041 establishes policy, responsibility, and procedures for acquisition and sale of utility services. A separate contract form is required for use in the sale of utilities and related services. 3–4. Governing provisions for operating civilian inmate prison camps on Army installations Civilian inmate prison camps on Army installations are subject to the following provisions: a. No weapons other than those authorized for the security of the civilian inmate prison camp and public protection will be permitted on prison camp premises. Storage, possession, control, and use of such weapons will be in accordance with corrections facility policy and procedures. b. No alcohol or controlled substances other than those under the control and supervision of the corrections facility medical personnel will be permitted on civilian inmate prison camp premises. Storage, possession, control, dispensing, and use of such drugs will be in accordance with corrections facility policy and procedures. c. The corrections facility must have a comprehensive written security plan; a contingency plan for handling walkaways, escapes, riots, serious incidents, job actions or strikes, and any other disruption; and a plan designed to ensure that adequate medical, sanitation, recreational, and other humanitarian services are provided for the inmates housed at the civilian inmate prison camp. These plans will be made available to the installation commander. d. Army personnel will not be involved in quelling or suppressing riots, disorders, and similar incidents within civilian inmate prison camp premises. Military police may not respond to or investigate incidents which occur within the civilian inmate prison camp and involve inmates or correctional facilities personnel, unless the installation commander determines that such action is reasonably necessary to protect personnel, equipment, or facilities under his or her control. They may gather information to fulfill AR 190–40 reporting requirements. Military police may take immediate action to save life or property or protect a Federal function. They may detain and restrain walkaways, escapees, and persons who commit a felony or breach of peace in their presence. However, inmates detained by military police will be turned over to civilian authorities as soon as possible. Military police will continue to perform military law enforcement duties to maintain good order and discipline on the installation, such as patrolling and criminal investigation of incidents occurring outside the prison camp, even if these activities indirectly enhance the camp’s security. e. Civilian inmate prison camp personnel must request approval from the installation commander before using riot control agents or deadly force to quell prison riots, disorders, or other incidents. f. Army personnel will not be involved in any manner with civilian inmate prison camp operations, except as otherwise specified in paragraph 3–4d, above. 3–5. Procedures for establishing a civilian inmate prison camp on Army installations The following procedures apply to establishing a civilian inmate prison camp on Army installations. These procedures are separate from those procedures discussed in chapter 2 above for establishing a civilian inmate labor program. Installations desiring to both establish a civilian inmate prison camp and an inmate labor program must follow the procedures outlined in chapters 2 and 3 of this regulation. Establishment of a civilian inmate prison camp does not automatically establish a civilian inmate labor program. Separate documents must be executed for each action, as outlined below. However, as noted in paragraph 2–1, above, civilian inmate labor programs are limited to use of inmates under the control of the FBOP. Establishment of a State civilian inmate prison camp under a lease pursuant to 10 USC 2667 does not permit the creation of a civilian inmate labor program. a. Installations will submit a proposal to establish a civilian inmate prison camp through command channels to HQDA, Assistant Chief of Staff for Installation Management, Plans and Operations Division (DAIM–MD), 600 Army Pentagon, Washington, DC 20310–0600. The proposal must be signed by the installation commander, be endorsed by the chain of command at all levels, and address the following areas: (1) Proposed civilian inmate prison campsite, intended use for existing buildings, planned renovations, or new construction. Include a site drawing of the planned area. (2) Proposed number of inmates to be housed and security level of inmates. (3) Proposed number of inmates to be used in work details, if applicable. (4) Economic analysis of the cost and/or benefits of establishing a civilian inmate prison camp. The analysis must include all the costs of providing all utility needs, such as water supply, wastewater treatment, stormwater, solid waste management, electricity, and central steam or hot water. The analysis must also describe the planned method of reimbursing the Army for these costs and how a transfer of funds from the corrections facility to the Army will be effected. (5) Synopsis of the correctional system’s request to establish a civilian inmate prison camp. (6) Compliance with the National Environmental Policy Act, the Stewart B. McKinney Homeless Assistance Act, and any successor legislation. 9 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- (7) Local community reaction, including family member reaction to establishing a civilian inmate prison camp on the installation. ( Summary of the benefits the Army will derive from establishing a civilian inmate prison camp. Address the services the Army will provide the prison camp and the services the prison camp will provide the Army in return. However, keep in mind that for State civilian inmate prison camps established pursuant to a lease under 10 USC 2667, the services that the prison camp may provide to the Army are limited to maintenance, protection, restoration, repair, and improvement of the leased facilities. (9) Risk assessment regarding the facilities proposed for outgranting. Address the viability of establishing a civilian inmate prison camp. (10) Correctional system security plan for the civilian inmate prison camp. (11) Proposed length of time of agreements (ISAs and lease and/or permit). (12) Report of availability of real property and/or facilities proposed for outgranting. b. Upon receiving HQDA approval, installations may request the Corps of Engineers district office to proceed with preparing the appropriate outgrant document with the correctional system for the right to use Army real property and facilities, and, for Federal civilian inmate prison camps, prepare a permit and an ISA delineating the services to be rendered by the civilian inmate prison camp and the support required from the installation. One copy of the outgrant document and the ISA, where applicable, will be forwarded through command channels to HQ, IMA (SFIM–PL). c. For Federal civilian inmate prison camps, the outgrant document will reference the ISA governing services the installation will provide the prison camp, and the services the prison camp will provide the installation, if applicable, under the memoranda of agreement establishing an installation civilian inmate labor program. The outgrant document by itself does not establish a civilian inmate labor program. A separate memoranda of agreement with the corrections facility is still required. All outgrants of Army real property will be prepared in accordance with AR 405–80. d. Installations intending to establish a civilian inmate labor program using inmates to be housed in the on–post prison camp will follow the procedures outlined in chapter 2 above. 3–6. Interservice, interagency, or interdepartmental support agreements The ISAs documents the services installations will provide the Federal civilian inmate prison camp and the services the prison camp will provide the installation, in return. The ISAs will be prepared in accordance with DODI 4000.19 and AR 37–49 and will cover the same period as the outgrant document. The ISAs are subject to annual review to examine current costs and determine next year project assignments. Installation commanders have the authority to negotiate and approve ISAs locally. Executing an ISA does not establish a civilian inmate labor program. A separate memoranda of agreement with the corrections facility is still required in accordance with the procedures delineated in chapter 2 above. a. Utility sales contracts and memoranda of agreement establishing civilian inmate labor programs using inmates from the on–post Federal civilian inmate prison are attachments to the ISAs. b. The ISAs will require the Federal civilian inmate prison camp to have a mutually acceptable utility and/or energy conservation program and an environmental management plan. The prison camp will provide assurance that it is resourced to carry out these provisions. c. No credits for inmate labor will be given to offset support services provided to the Federal civilian inmate prison camp. Chapter 4 Reporting and Recordkeeping 4–1. Incident reports Serious incidents, that is, walkaways, escapes, riots, disturbances, and any criminal action involving inmates participating in the civilian inmate labor program and/or occurring in onpost civilian inmate prison camps will be reported in accordance with AR 190–40. One copy of incident reports will be provided to HQ, IMA (SFIM–PL), and HQDA, Office of the Chief of Public Affairs, Public Communications Division (SAPA–PCD). Accidents involving inmates will be investigated and reported in accordance with AR 385–40. 4–2. Media coverage Any media coverage involving inmates participating in the Civilian Inmate Labor Program, or involving onpost civilian inmate prison camps, will be reported through command channels to HQ, IMA (SFIMPL), and HQDA, Office of the Chief of Public Affairs, Public Communications Division (SAPA–PCD). Report media source (newspaper, magazine, radio, television), name of media source (and radio and/or television channel), date of coverage, synopsis of report, and whether the report had local, regional, or national coverage. Provide copies of the article and/or script, if available. 10 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- 4–3. Recordkeeping Installations will maintain records of their civilian inmate labor programs. These records will be used in higher headquarters efforts to assess program utility and assess the effectiveness of key management controls identified in appendix D. The management and final disposition of all civilian inmate labor programs and civilian inmate prison camp records will comply with AR 25–400–2. Recordkeeping will cover the following topics: a. For civilian inmate labor programs— (1) Summary listing of all work projects employing civilian inmates, including project duration, number of civilian inmates used on the project, number of corrections facility personnel supervising work details assigned to each project, and number of Army military and civilian personnel engaged in oversight activities per project. (2) Cost avoidance generated from civilian inmate labor. Cost avoidance is based on determining the dollar value of inmate labor by equating inmate work performed to the dollar value and costs of similar work if performed by authorized and funded positions, or by contract. Cost avoidance must be calculated using the following equation: Cost avoidance=Dollar value of civilian labor (including fringe benefits, monitoring, and overhead) and/or contracts for functions inmates now perform (including overtime) minus Cost of equipment, materials, and supplies furnished to inmate labor details minus Costs of transporting inmates to and from corrections facility (as applicable) minus Inmate meal costs (if provided) minus Program administration costs minus Any other costs associated with the civilian inmate labor program. (3) Synopsis of special incidents and/or military police (MP) reports involving civilian inmate labor. This includes significant events and anticipated problems. (4) Media inquiries and responses provided. (5) Synopsis of any complaints and/or concerns from the surrounding off–post community and family members regarding inmate labor, together with any action taken to resolve the complaint. (6) Borrowed military manpower returned to duty resulting from inmate labor. b. For civilian inmate prison camps— (1) Monthly average daily population for the facility. (2) Any Right of Entry violations and corrective measures taken. (3) Direct and reimbursable obligations for support provided to the civilian inmate prison camp, to allow for analysis of spending trends. (4) Synopsis of any complaints and/or concerns from the surrounding off–post community and family members regarding the civilian inmate prison camp, together with any action taken to resolve the complaint. (5) Synopsis of special incidents and/or MP reports involving the civilian inmate prison camp. This includes significant events and anticipated problems. (6) Media inquiries and responses provided. 11 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- Appendix A References Section I Required Publications AR 11–2 Management Controls. (Cited in para 1–4e(4).) AR 15–6 Procedures for Investigating Officers and Boards of Officers. (Cited in para 2–3 g(4)(b).) AR 37–49 Budgeting, Funding, and Reimbursement for Base Operations Support of Army Activities. (Cited in para 3–6.) AR 190–40 Serious Incident Report. (Cited in paras 1–4 h(1), 3–4d, 4–1, and D–4c(5).) AR 385–40 Accident Reporting and Records. (Cited in para 4–1.) AR 405–80 Management of Title and Granting Use of Real Property. (Cited in paras 3–3 j and 3–5c.) AR 420–41 Acquisition and Sales of Utilities Services. (Cited in paras 3–3 k.) AR 600–55 The Army Driver and Operator Standardization Program (Selection, Training, Testing and Licensing). (Cited in para 2–3b(3).) 5 USC 7101 et. seq. Federal Labor Management Relations Statute. (Cited in para 2–4 e.) 10 USC 2667 Leases, NonExcess Property of Military Departments. (Cited in paras 1–1, 3–2 b, 3–2c, 3–5a( .) 18 USC 4125(a) Public Works; Prison Camps. (Cited in paras 1–4j(1), 1–4k(1), 2–1a, 2–1f, and 2–3c.) 28 CFR 301 Inmate Accident Compensation. (Cited in para 2–3i.) 29 CFR 1910 Occupational Safety and Health Standards. (Cited in para 2–3 i(3).) 31 USC 1342 Limitation on Voluntary Services. (Cited in para 3–2 c.) DODI 4000.19 Interservice, Interdepartmental, and Interagency Support. (Cited in paras 3–3 i and 3–6.) Executive Order 11755 Prison Labor. (Cited in paras 1–4j(1), 1–4k(1), 2–1d(3), and 2–1f.) PL 103–337, Section 1065 Demonstration Project for Use of Army Installations to Provide Prerelease Employment Training to Nonviolent Offenders in State Penal Systems. (Cited in paras 1–1 and 2–1 d(1).) 12 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- Section II Related Publications A related publication is a source of additional information. The user does not have to read it to understand this publication. Army regulations and pamphlets are available on the Army Publishing Directorate’s Web site at http:// www.apd.army.mil. AR 5–9 Area Support Responsibilities AR 5–20 Commercial Activities Program AR 25–400–2 The Army Records Information Management System (ARIMS) AR 190–47 The U.S. Army Correctional System 18 USC Chapter 303 Bureau of Prisons (Available at http://www.gpoaccess.gov/USCODE/INDEX.HTML.) 18 USC Chapter 305 Commitment and Transfer (Available at http://www.gpoaccess.gov/USCODE/INDEX.HTML.) 18 USC Chapter 1385 Posse Comitatus Act (Available at http://www.gpoaccess.gov/USCODE/INDEX.HTML.) 28 USC 1346(b), 2671–2680 Federal Tort Claims Act (Available at http://www.gpoaccess.gov/USCODE/INDEX.HTML.) DODD 5525.5 DOD Cooperation with Civilian Law Enforcement Officials (Available at http://www.dtic.whs/directives.) FAR, Part 22.201 Convict Labor (Available at http://www.arnet.gov.far/.) Section III Prescribed Forms This section contains no entries. Section IV Referenced Forms DA Form 11–2–R Management Control Evaluation Certification Statement (Available at http://www.apd.army.mil.) Appendix B Memorandum of Agreement Format This memorandum of agreement (MOA) format addresses agreements between Army organizations and Federal corrections facilities under the control of the U.S. Federal Bureau of Prisons (FBOP) and is the template for developing such agreements. This MOA format contains all required clauses for compliance with Army policy on using civilian inmates. This MOA format may be modified to accommodate State/local civilian inmate use authorized under the exceptions cited in paragraph 2–1d of this regulation. Users of this template should make the appropriate substitutions indicated in bold print and bounded by parenthesis to tailor this template for their own use. 13 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- Figure B–1. Sample format for a memorandum of agreement 14 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- Figure B–1. Sample format for a memorandum of agreement—continued 15 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- Figure B–1. Sample format for a memorandum of agreement—continued 16 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- Figure B–1. Sample format for a memorandum of agreement—continued 17 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- Figure B–1. Sample format for a memorandum of agreement—continued 18 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- Figure B–1. Sample format for a memorandum of agreement—continued Appendix C Sample Inmate Labor Plan This sample Inmate Labor Plan may be used as a template to develop user Inmate Labor Plans. This sample Inmate Labor Plan contains all required clauses for compliance with Army policy on using civilian inmates. Users of this template should make the appropriate substitutions indicated in bold print and bounded by parenthesis to tailor this template for their own use. User Inmate Labor Plans may be a regulation, letter of instruction, policy memorandum, or other document of the user’s choice. 19 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- Figure C–1. Sample Inmate Labor Plan—continued 20 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- Figure C–1. Sample Inmate Labor Plan—continued 21 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- Figure C–1. Sample Inmate Labor Plan—continued 22 AR 210–35  14 January 2005 ----------------------------------------------- Appendix D Management Control Evaluation Checklist D–1. Function The function covered by this checklist is the administration of the Army’s Civilian Inmate Labor Program, which is currently limited to using inmates from facilities under the control of the Federal Bureau of Prisons. D–2. Purpose The purpose of this checklist is to assist HQDA, HQ, IMA, and installation program administrators in evaluating the key management controls outlined below. It is not intended to cover all controls. D–3. Instructions Answers must be based on the actual testing of key management controls (for example, document analysis, direct observation, sampling, simulation, other). Answers that indicate deficiencies must be explained and corrective action indicated in supporting documentation. These key management controls must be formally evaluated annually. Certification that this evaluation has

112 Homeland Security Contracts for Vast New Detention Camps http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=eed74d9d44c30493706fe03f4c9b3a77 News Analysis/Commentary, Peter Dale Scott, New America Media, Feb 08, 2006 Editor's Note: A little-known $385 million contract for Halliburton subsidiary KBR to build detention facilities for "an emergency influx of immigrants" is another step down the Bush administration's road toward martial law, the writer says. BERKELEY, Calif.--A Halliburton subsidiary has just received a $385 million contract from the Department of Homeland Security to provide "temporary detention and processing capabilities." The contract -- announced Jan. 24 by the engineering and construction firm KBR -- calls for preparing for "an emergency influx of immigrants, or to support the rapid development of new programs" in the event of other emergencies, such as "a natural disaster." The release offered no details about where Halliburton was to build these facilities, or when. To date, some newspapers have worried that open-ended provisions in the contract could lead to cost overruns, such as have occurred with KBR in Iraq. A Homeland Security spokesperson has responded that this is a "contingency contract" and that conceivably no centers might be built. But almost no paper so far has discussed the possibility that detention centers could be used to detain American citizens if the Bush administration were to declare martial law. For those who follow covert government operations abroad and at home, the contract evoked ominous memories of Oliver North's controversial Rex-84 "readiness exercise" in 1984. This called for the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) to round up and detain 400,000 imaginary "refugees," in the context of "uncontrolled population movements" over the Mexican border into the United States. North's activities raised civil liberties concerns in both Congress and the Justice Department. The concerns persist. "Almost certainly this is preparation for a roundup after the next 9/11 for Mid-Easterners, Muslims and possibly dissenters," says Daniel Ellsberg, a former military analyst who in 1971 released the Pentagon Papers, the U.S. military's account of its activities in Vietnam. "They've already done this on a smaller scale, with the 'special registration' detentions of immigrant men from Muslim countries, and with Guantanamo." Plans for detention facilities or camps have a long history, going back to fears in the 1970s of a national uprising by black militants. As Alonzo Chardy reported in the Miami Herald on July 5, 1987, an executive order for continuity of government (COG) had been drafted in 1982 by FEMA head Louis Giuffrida. The order called for "suspension of the Constitution" and "declaration of martial law." The martial law portions of the plan were outlined in a memo by Giuffrida's deputy, John Brinkerhoff. In 1985, President Reagan signed National Security Decision Directive 188, one of a series of directives that authorized continued planning for COG by a private parallel government. Two books, James Mann's "Rise of the Vulcans" and James Bamford's "A Pretext for War," have revealed that in the 1980s this parallel structure, operating outside normal government channels, included the then-head of G. D. Searle and Co., Donald Rumsfeld, and then-Congressman from Wyoming Dick Cheney. After 9/11, new martial law plans began to surface similar to those of FEMA in the 1980s. In January 2002 the Pentagon submitted a proposal for deploying troops on American streets. One month later John Brinkerhoff, the author of the 1982 FEMA memo, published an article arguing for the legality of using U.S. troops for purposes of domestic security. Then in April 2002, Defense Dept. officials implemented a plan for domestic U.S. military operations by creating a new U.S. Northern Command (CINC-NORTHCOM) for the continental United States. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld called this "the most sweeping set of changes since the unified command system was set up in 1946." The NORTHCOM commander, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld announced, is responsible for "homeland defense and also serves as head of the North American A-e-rospace Defense Command (NORAD).... He will command U.S. forces that operate within the United States in support of civil authorities. The command will provide civil support not only in response to attacks, but for natural disasters." John Brinkerhoff later commented on PBS that, "The United States itself is now for the first time since the War of 1812 a theater of war. That means that we should apply, in my view, the same kind of command structure in the United States that we apply in other theaters of war." Then in response to Hurricane Katrina in Sept. 2005, according to the Washington Post, White House senior adviser Karl Rove told the governor of Louisiana, Kathleen Babineaux Blanco, that she should explore legal options to impose martial law "or as close as we can get." The White House tried vigorously, but ultimately failed, to compel Gov. Blanco to yield control of the state National Guard. Also in September, NORTHCOM conducted its highly classified Granite Shadow exercise in Washington. As William Arkin reported in the Washington Post, "Granite Shadow is yet another new Top Secret and compartmented operation related to the military's extra-legal powers regarding weapons of mass destruction. It allows for emergency military operations in the United States without civilian supervision or control." It is clear that the Bush administration is thinking seriously about martial law. Many critics have alleged that FEMA's spectacular failure to respond to Katrina followed from a deliberate White House policy: of paring back FEMA, and instead strengthening the military for responses to disasters. A multimillion program for detention facilities will greatly increase NORTHCOM's ability to respond to any domestic disorders.

113 "To imply that the CIA is "controlling" Ms. Carroll's kidnappers to drum up waning support for the war is absurd. Common sense dictates that this provides more fodder for the opposition to the war than anything." If it were known, to the public, that elements within the intelligence community (including but not limited to those embedded in the CIA) were the ones behind her kidnapping (and most if not all of the other kidnappings as well) then yes it would galvanize public opposition. They pretend to be Al Queda however, because the object is to gain support 'for' the war. It is called the making of the enemy. The kidnappings also always take place when support for the war begins to wane. Now just whose timing would that be? Not Al Queda's certainly, because it runs counter to their agenda, of undermining support for the war. "Hence my remark, is this the incredibly stupid CIA or the fantastically smart CIA?" Could it be that the so called "stupid CIA" mistakes, regarding pre Iraq War intelligence, were really careful manipulations of public opinion? Once again, to garner public support, 'for' the war NOT against it. Could it be that really, the whole "oops we messed up sorry our bad" bull shit, is an exercise in plausible deniability also? The CIA knew Iraq had no WMD, and so did Bush. They lied. Perfect timing really, since a director already planning on retirement, could also "be a big man" about admitting "the mistakes" which happened on his watch. But Bushco Haliburton Inc and the rest of the CFR global corporate alliance get their war. For them, it is all about the objective, by whatever means necessary. Once again. Why in the hell would Al Queda kidnap sympathetic journalists and peace activists? They are too stupid to know how bad that makes them look? WHAT WHAT WHAT! These supposed geniuses who pulled off 911 right in NORAD's face, being also so elusive and magically effective, that they remain a huge threat to the whole planet?! Please use your head for a change. Drop the partisan crap and the hurt feelings. Take an objective look at what really is. It was some body else doing the kidnapping and executions, and the actual perps being Al CIAda figured, what the hell, we can erase this nosy enemy/sympathetic journalist 'and' those pain in the ass Christian peace activists, at the same time. I am not saying these things were done openly by the legit CIA, but rather by embeds within the Agency, and other operators of oh, say, ONI, NSA and lessor known hard/black foreign allied subintel groups, not to mention mercenary KGB left overs, who are part of shall we say a "wider agenda". I do not for one moment assume the CIA to be "stupid", and neither do I presume them to square straight and decent boy scouts either.

114 Oh my God. You Nerds are going berzerk. So far I've said girls are dumb and you guys are on State Department Reports. Let's go this way because I'm giving up here. Did the CIA sell crack to inner city minorities to fund the CONTRAS? Anyone?...............Anyone?............ Beuller?.................Beulller?............ Natasha?..............Natasha?........... Anyone here have frickin sharks with frickin laser beams mounted to their frickin heads? Oh and Natasha any allegations of CIA boy scout molestations?

115 Honestly, Jill should have chosen her "friends" more carefully.

116 I dont thinl she's coming home if shes even still alive

117 When they bring Jill's body back how will they identify the it since she'll have on the low rider bell bottoms, tramp stamp tattoo on the lower back, pierced navel, hair parted down the middle, the big chunky shoes and the high cut t-shirt just like all the other dumb girls?

118 Jill's not coming back, guys. She may have become part of a CIA mind control plot. Super sekrit note to self: try to score with natasha-she's probably like pretty hot and stuff. I'm glad I've still got my inner monologue. Muwahahahahahahah!

1 Yep and I had another thought about Sudan and the refugees forced to Egypt. The government of Sudan claims no support of the terrorists. It's clear the terrorists really want to upset Egypt. Using this same method of kidnap against Sudan's Government, say a commanders family, may also explain the pictures of Gov't helicopters in childrens drawings. So while the Gov't of Sudan may not "support" terrorists well you get the idea...they are Al-Queada's bitch. We could help them but they resist either out of fear or support of the terrorists. IM which do you think it is?

2 Tis a good deal they are free but it does encourage more. It is an effort to soften the image of the terrorists. I would have hoped the CPT hostages would have been with them.

3 The news I heard on the Kate Burton kidnapping was funny. It looks like the previously unheard of terrorists are a bunch of rank amateurs (even by local standards) who didn't stop to consider that their victim is a philanthropist who is fabulously popular among their own people. It sounds like these noobs caught more pressure from Palestinians than from the Brits. Yemen is a different matter though. When you hear about people being abducted not by terrorists but by "tribesmen" that should clue you in that you're dealing with a government that can't exercise authority outside urban areas. They've probably been wrangling with tribesmen like this since the govt. was founded.

4 Kidnapping is a sport in Yemen, where they have nothing better to do besides bugger sheep and chew qat.

1 For some reason the video didn't work for me.

2 George it works for me but is only available in Real Video, windows media won't play it. I tried again to make sure and I can see it. You are not missing much same old stuff and all in Arabic. But you can see the hostages one by one with the ID tags.

3 Thanks. I have Windows Media Player. I'll get Real Player.

4 All right, I switched to Real Player and saw the video. I wish there was a translation when they talked. From what I could understand, the first hostage is the secretary in Iraq for Sudan. The fourth one is the driver since he didn't show ID. I don't know what the other's jobs are but they must be diplomats since they showed ID. Since Al Qaeda in Iraq kidnapped these guys, it doesn't look good. They are going to die.

5 Agent Smith says enough is enough - time to rev up the draft, fill the ranks to the bursting point and whip some terrorist ass!

6 What do Agent Jackson, Thompson and Johnson think???

7 When Al-Qaeda in Iraq says it's gonna kill diplomats, they mean it. Sudan had no choice. I'm not a liberal but seeing six sudanese being shot to death wouldn't look good for Sudan. However I'm not sure Al-Qaeda in Iraq will release these hostages. We'll have to wait and see.

8 The six Sudanese hostages have been freed by Al Qaeda in Iraq according to Al Jazeera and BBC. This is rare considering Zarqawi's notoriety. The Six Sudanese are luck bastards. I'm glad they are safe.

9 Agent Smith replies to Ramos: Agent Jackson never paid attention and took a great fall. Agent Thompson accidentally shot himself and was deleted. Agent Johnson - never heard of him.

10 LOL, thanks Agent Smith.

1 YOU CAN BLAME BUSH/RUMSFELD! If they weren't sooooo obsessed with tolerating the initial orgy of looting in order to suppress massive retribution and bloodletting on the part of the Shia & Kurds against the Sunni - we wouldn't be having many of these problems! Guess someone in Admin thought video footage of people carting off TV sets would be viewed more favorably by the MSM than Sunnis hanging from lamp posts or wearing flaming tire necklaces. Mistake # .... (PS - I am being serious in a light-hearted manner - might make the leftists merry - it is Christmas!)

2 Agent Smith exhorts you to START THE DRAFT NOW!! It is time to open the canned heat and whip some SALAFIST TERRORIST ASS. 500,000 American Troops plus the Baathist Generals will wipe out the terrorist scourge and defend Iraqi Freedom from Iran's President Jihadidad. There is no time to waste, call your senators and congressmen now!

3 Don't need 500000 US troops - need 500000 rifles for the Shia & Kurds - look the other way - and lots of blinders for the MSM. As per Nguyen Ngoc Loan, Ret.

4 "What can one say about a religion that is still debating the legitimacy of hostage taking and murder?" Not anything positive, that's for sure.

5 "What can one say about a religion that is still debating the legitimacy of hostage-taking and murder?" Well, for starters you can safely say it doen't toe the line for fashionable 21st century morality. Why, it's been decades since the West decided it was cool to quit treating children like chattel, women like household appliances, Jews like pizzas, and start being nice to everyone. Islam shows little interest in keeping up with the trends we're setting. What gives? Muslims have this theory: God tells Man what is right, and Man complies. It doesn't work that way in practice, for the most part, but it's a degree more dignified than the way we do religion in the West, which is to thrust all the moral opinions you fancy at the moment into God's mouth like you were a ventriloquist and The Almighty was your puppet. This is why our God never commands anything that clashes with our ideas of "intrinsic human dignity," or anything else we don't want to hear for that matter. Muslims spend most of their time doing this too--burkas and kidnappings are not commanded in the Koran--but at least part of the time they actually read their Holy Book and try to comply with the ancient rules of The Deity. A few of our Christians try to do that with the Bible, but when they do they're treated like freaks, and if they take it too far they get hosed down by the FBI. IIRC, Koran demands death for apostasy, and if you waste Ahmed for deciding to be a Hare Krishna instead, your fellow Muslims might just applaud your piety because they take the scripture seriously (sometimes.)

6 Shannon, You need to go over to Jihad Watch or to Daniel Pipes and read a few of the Koranic verses that order the faithful to kill the infidel and plunder his wealth. The fact that millions of Muslims, if not tens of millions take the Koran at face value might give rise to more thought from you on the matter. Historical perspective can be found at the best book I know on the subject of jihad, and that book is Jihad in the West by Paul Fregosi, who is a Frenchman. Very interesting, to say the least. Anything written by Robert Spencer, such as The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam, or several others will enlighten you on Islam.

7 These radicals have not one bit of civilized behavior and even the muselum clerics are denouncing them as the cowards they are

8 Joe, I don't doubt that the Koran commands some pretty freaky stuff (then again, in fairness, so does the Bible.) Notice that I wasn't praising it for the soundness of the ethical system it propounds. I do stand on the point that Muslems spend much of their time reading local customs (burka) into the Koran that aren't there, and ignoring doctrines (tolerance for Christians and Jews) that are. I've known some Muslems, and they seemed little more preoccupied with religious rules than any other people I've met. If even a substantial fraction of them took the Hellfire & Brimstone parts of Koran seriously, we'd be seeing human waves of thousands sweeping out of Gaza rather than the piddling handful of mortar rounds on alternate Fridays that we see now.

9 If even a substantial fraction of them took the Hellfire & Brimstone parts of Koran seriously, we'd be seeing human waves of thousands sweeping out of Gaza rather than the piddling handful of mortar rounds on alternate Fridays that we see now. Basically they were just waiting to see how we responded to 9/11 before launching the tsunami. The wave has been cancelled.

10 The cleric is wasting his time. The Moroccan hostages are dead. Nothing has been heard from the captors for months. When Al Qaeda says they will kill their hostages, they mean it. What I don't understand is why they never issued a video shoing their executions or a statement saying they killed them. I believe they are dead though.

11 I find it interesting that the media outlets and blogs rapidly declared the Ayman Al Zwahari memo as a forgery (introduced by evil Americans -- no doubt!) however since it's release the last victims of the insurgency were executed via gunshot, rather than beheading as instructed in the memo.

12 One hostage was beheaded. He worked for the Badr brigades. The Moroccan hostages were also probably beheaded but we'll never know since no video was produced.

13 Agent Jones says that we're keeping an eye on Zowie-heerie.

1 I knew it. I freaking knew it. She's just another goddamn dhimmi whore. I swear, all of Western Europe should just be purged of every person and recolonized.

2 Agent Smith asks who is Guilian Sgrena?

3 Funny statement - they don't harm women, or children ... and she is a muslim. So I guess its not car, truck, and suicide bombs slaughtering thousands of same after all! Must be meteorites! Jew meteorites! Yes! That's it! Unless of course in the eyes of Iraqi Sunni insurgents - Shia & Kurds don't count.

4 You're not really surprised about Osthoff, are you?

5 hondo, Down there just above the Jews and the crusaders you will find the Shia. Why they continue to be dogs to their Sunni masters is beyond me. I have tried and tried, but I cannot figure it out.

6 Doh! I just saw the title of the post.

7 we called it.

8 If she's so convinced that they're such nice people, perhaps she should meet with a few fathers and mothers who have lost children in horrific ways to her buddies because all they ever wanted was some humanitarian aid. If that happens she'd better hope that everything in the room was nailed down. I especially love this statement: "She described her captors as "poor people" and that she "cannot blame them for kidnapping her, as they cannot enter (Baghdad's heavily fortified) Green Zone to kidnap Americans." Worthless b**ch

9 Just what I said when you first posted on her. It was all a ploy to support the Muslimfascists; and publicize the terror done by Jews and Christians. Of course the MSM has worked hand in glove with the fascists.

10 You are aware of course, she has telegraphed her real sympathies for an element of Iraqi society that can AT BEST count on support and agreement from no more (max) than 20% of the population. She may have a difficult time returning to Iraq - there aren't too many dig sites in the Sunni Triangle - and the Shia & Kurds have a habit of holding grudges. Archaeologists are an odd breed. Many prefer "stable" dictatorships (like Saddam) who can expedite their "work" of exploring the past - while convienently ignoring the present.

11 Oy...

12 Agent Smith says "Vey".

1 Agent Smith says it is payback time for those terrorist sons of bitches once we get the draft going again.

2 Why do you talk in third person? Can any one explain this to me???

3 Its his sctick - he does it to differentiate himself from the rest with an air of aloof cynicism - an observer or walk-on commentator. Sometimes it works. I do something similar myself ocassionally when I wish to comment on someone or something said without acknowledging that person directly - ie. lil' ernie or recently - greg. Its like speaking about someone (in the third person) while they are standing right there.

4 Agent Smith is fiercely loyal to the Architect!

5 Okay, Sorry it's just I'm new here.

6 It's okay George, he's an idiot and never contributes anything of substance, and it's best just to skip over anything the moron writes. Oh, and welcome to TJR.

7 Agent Smith laughs maniacally at all you podlings, puppets dancing on strings. Agent Brown says that the fiery mix of goatboys and knifeboys under Improbulus Jester's control are only the small fleas on the back of the one big flea. Agent Jones says don't listen to Smith when he laughs.

1 Of course they caved, and they did it without a second thought, because not only did they get a positive return out of it, it also satisfied their animosity toward America at the same time.

2 "Did The Germans Cave? Is the sky blue? Is water wet? Are Liberals self-loathing traitors? Of course the Germans caved. That's why we don't go to the Euroweenies for permission-- because they cave.

3 I was expecting a bit more from the new PM.....silly me.

4 NO, this is what happens when beliefs in American exceptionalism (blind nationalism) begins to hinder and break down cooperation among the world community. This cooperation is necessary for US hegemony, but for some reason the self proclaimed "patriots" running this country do not see it. Remember, in 1930s Germany, they thought the same thing. Nazi Germmans thought they were "the master race" whose duty it was to spread "civilization" by force. Sound familiar followers of Prescott? See, when you ignore intl law because you are so much better than "old europe" those "liberal pinko pussies" they have no reason to cooperate with you, and thus become antagonistic. Germany letting that guy go essentially says "blow us stupid." So again, have fun telling each other how much better you are than everyone else and how everyone who disagrees with you are traitors and such. Ya , ya , I know, for freedom and liberty we need an emperor that can use arbitrary executive power for Jesus to return. Yes, spying on Americans is patriotic as is torturing people and fighting war for peace. ROwell saw you guys coming. DOg patch america wont stand, read a book, turn off that TV. ernie

5 ernie, Whoa what a load of crap you just spewed. The outrage here has nothing to do with Germany not following our directions. This has to do with them having no balls. You should not give in to kidnappers - it ENCOURAGES kidnapping. They are appeasers of terrorists and more Germans will be kidnapped now that they capitulated on this one. America has a policy of not negotiating with terrorists for a reason: common sense. It seems that Germany has not thought out the consequences. Germany is not saying "blow us" to the US. They are prostituting themselves to terrorists. Who's looking stupid now?

6 ernie, too much planet Chomsky for you.

7 So, lebannon and Iraq are sleeping in the same bed now. We should get them too(again). Lock and load Bush, I sees them bad guys now...... I better check CNN to see if its true

8 "Hey Ma! That neighbor's kid - lil' ernie - is in the yard again diggin' up holes! He must have found a way out of their attic again!"

9 Oh, well, maybe it's a good thing. The terrorists will just start kidnapping more Germans and fewer Americans. The downside is that the Germans will be releasing people that will go right back into the fight against the West, which INCLUDES Germany. Europussies don't realise that the islamofascists hate them too.

10 It looks like it's a match between ernie and greg to see who is the bigger moron. Ernie is slightly ahead, but greg is just getting his legs back.

11 It sounds as if ernie has been hitting the local library, unfortunately 99% of the info seems to be gushing out of an ear. This signifies some amusing posts in the coming days. I'm just aquiver with anticipation. The Germans, like the rest of Western Europe have again shown that terrorism pays and pays well. Oh and ernie, if you read that book "Nazism for Dummies" again, you'll see that the Nazis were not spreading civilisation by force. The idea was the enslavement of the world in service of the master race.......by force if necessary, and back when Europe had some spine, it was necessary. The United States is spreading democracy, and not by force. Iraqis did not rush out to vote under threat of American retribution There's a huge difference therefore, between Nazism and US foreign policy.

12 Of course, ernie makes a mountain out of a mole hill. YOU MORON! Can't you see that this will only increase the number of kidnappings now? Are you that stupid? This is not about big, bad, evil America and its insatiable appetite for oil. Shove your conspiracy theories up your ignorant butt and see this simply for what it is. Germany is now negotiating with terrorists. America the horrible is not lurking under the surface on this one man, sorry to disappoint you.

13 Big Bad America lives in lil' ernie's closet. But when the lights go out lil' ernie .... Someone should get him one of those Killer Klowns night lights for Christmas ...

14 Clearly the german government decided to follow what the reagan admin did and sell weapons to the kidnappers. So this is a triumph for the Republican party.Why isn't colonel north out cheering this behaviour ?

15 Agent Jones opines on the German Cave: There once was a German named Pieter, who tried to type a message to Dieter. His keyboard got stuck so he ran out of luck, And thus escaped the "Bahn" from the Rieper.

16 It appears the saying "ignorance has no limitations" is true. It manifests itself regularly in the comment section here. Poor ernie can't see the difference between "spreading civilization" by way of killing off a large portion of it and "spreading civilization" by espousing the idea that all have a right to live. I feel sorry for li'l ernie. He's too stupid to understand the fundamentals of it.

17 When I visualize lil' ernie I see, for reasons unknown, "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels" - the "lesser" brother - though there it was an act of limited "confidence" skills - lil' ernie is the real thing.

18 He's too stupid to know he's stupid.

19 Ernie, what international law are we ignoring? Perhaps those treaties we refrained from signing. As such, those are not binding on us ... according to international law. One reason the USA is reluctant to sign on to all sorts of treaties is that we actually follow them. France signs onto all the treaties it likes because they are not worth the paper they are written on over there, except as gestures of high-mindedness and "sophistication".

20 Besides, even we do sign agreements we still make our own rules. ie NAFTA and the lumber ruling with the Canadians. we like to play the game and change the rules as we go it's better that way...

21 The Germans caved in to the Islamists for the same reason they tolerate honor killings in their own country. Basically they are afraid of the radical Muslims who are in their midst. This was just one more example of appeasement on Germany's slide into Eurabia, nothing more, nor less. It really didn't concern Germany whether American sensibilities were injured or not, as we are not the ones likely to start a burning spree in large German cities, a la France. The real problem I have with the whole episode is its use by lightweight thinkers like ernie and others in more important places who will use it to bash the US rather than seeing the real significance, which is the caving of Europe to radical Islam. One wonders whether Europe has any fight left in it at all.

22 oh hwatever. "planet chomsky"? sounds like you listen to too much horowitz jesus land. Anyway, really, your hyper nationalsit ideology is hindering US hegemony, point...fact...and simple. Not a big deal, couldnt care less, but the fact is Germany is telling yOu..."eat shit". sorry, the truth hurts. happy kwanza. ernie

23 Aaaaahhhh lil ernie! Sad! Still can't get any bush for Christmas.

1 They have been released, apparently after the kidnappers realised they were not american. I wonder what purpose they wanted with american hostages. Doesn't america give a lot of aid to palestine, whats that saying about biting the hand that feeds, perhaps its time for the hand to form a fist and instill some gratitude.

2 They need aid all right. About a couple megatons of it I should guess would do the trick.

3 My dad just resigned from the school and December 21st was to be his last day before flying home for Christmas. Believe me, the phone call saying there'd been two abductions is a heck of a way to begin the day. Thank God everyone's alright.. and kudos and prayersto everyone with the courage to stand up for a cause. Remember: There are three sides of the story: Yours. Mine. Truth. Peace.

1 Well if that isn't the definition of irony, I don't know what is.

2 Actually the definition of irony is the use of a word other than it was originally intended /smartass mode

3 Can we send in another hostage negotiator to rescue, the hostage negotiator, that went into the negotiate for the release of the hostages. Kinds of reminds me of something? oh! yes: There was an old lady who swallowed a fly I don't know why she swallowed a fly - perhaps she'll die! There was an old lady who swallowed a spider, That wriggled and wiggled and tiggled inside her; She swallowed the spider to catch the fly; I don't know why she swallowed a fly - Perhaps she'll die! There was an old lady who swallowed a bird; How absurd to swallow a bird. She swallowed the bird to catch the spider, She swallowed the spider to catch the fly; I don't know why she swallowed a fly - Perhaps she'll die!

4 I don't like that definition of irony, because it completely misses the essence of everything that's ironic. We use words in ways other than originally intended all the time, but we don't call it irony. In fact, irony really has nothing whatsoever to do with the meaning of a word, but everything to do with situational usage, i.e. Jimmy Carter criticizing any other President for any reason under the sun, for example.

5 maxie Rusty got ya on the smackdown - don't go all whinny and girlee on us now.

6 Agent Jones says some people are just too untrustworthy.

7 Harmeet Singh is a friend of mine...and I am hoping you all will help in getting him and his friends released by praying ....praying all you can....things are going from bad to worst and this is not how its supposed to be....Its supposed to be going from bad to good....I wish there were something I could do from here but praying is the last resort...

8 Praying is the first resort - the last resort you can not accept or resort to.

9 Hondo, I will say this only once, and as a friend: You aint got a dog in this fight, so STFU.

10 Thank you Improbulus, I have a dog in the fight. More specifically, and more respectfully, I mean Norman Kember. It's gotten pretty frustrating to wait without any news. In a sense that's a good thing because the lack of murder videos and statements of responsibility implies that the hostages are still alive. I will continue to join people like Sairah Khan and many others in prayer.

11 Tell me I am crazy but everything seems to be weird, this is not the way terrorist have worked in the past, some things are different, coud there be a conspiracy going on ??? I mean when they kill someone they show it and in the case of Schulz in the first video of his abduction the video cuts out the people around him and no video on his so called murder ??? just makes no sense. Anyone with ideas on it ?

12 Ok maxie I just couldn't resist.

13 Agent Smith says to Hondo: none of the agents will ever tell you to be silent.

14 I didn't tell him to be silent, I told him to STFU, which, among men who know one another, is quite another thing. But then, the agents, adolescents who seem fixated with retaining their adolescent geekiness, know nothing about men, except the ones they meet in parks after dark.

15 Well hate to say it but...no one can be trusted in the world of Islam.

16 Agent Smith Maxie has an excellent point. You can tell an enemy to go fuck himself; or you can tell a friend to go fuck himself - same word/expression but two different meanings in context. Dr Rusty would consider this a prime example of irony. I consider it a testament to the versatility of the english word - fuck.

17 Yep! Prayer will save him. Works every time.

1 In light of this information, can you explain to me what this means? What prompted this group to kill some hostages, and let others go? What do you make of their silence? Thanks, Jill

2 Speculation has been that they are trying to raise money for their terror operations, but that is just speculation. They also never released their last snuff video of the murder of Ronald Schulz. It may be that they are getting more media savvy and realize there is some propaganda value in keeping the peace activists alive.

3 "It may be that they are getting more media savvy and realize there is some propaganda value in keeping the peace activists alive." Or, more accurately, they realize they've fucked up and kidnapped the wrong people. I mean, not even hardline extremists have their backs on this one. So, what do they do? They can't kill them because they'll drive even more Muslims away from their brand of thinking. But they can't let them go, because then it looks like they've capitulated or have admitted they've fucked up.

4 Also Venom, if they kill them, they risk alienating the rest of the Useful Idiot dhimmis of the CPT, though the chance is small, as no matter what they do, America will take the blame.

5 They killed Margaret Hassan who worked for their shithole of a country for 20 years. These scum will kill anyone...just depends on what side of the bed they wake up on or if their football team loses.

6 Jester, But they aren't dumb (presumably), just evil. Is it possible that they realize they miscalculated in the Hassan and Baldoni cases?

7 Hassan and Baldoni only served to exacerbate America's problems though, since the media went into instant spin cycle in order to deflect the blame from the true criminals onto America.

8 Producing a snuff video that al Jazeera refused to play indicates a serious miscalculation. If, as Rusty says, they're not stupid, the CPT hostages may survive. Btw, linked to this story, but haven't been able to ping your site with a trackback for some time now.

9 Even with the kidnapping of Hassan, you didn't see anywhere near this level of Islamist pleas for her release.

10 Rusty, you de man, man. Congrats on great coverage of the news in Iraq. The MSM has been scooped again, thanks to the Jawa and others in the blogging community. Pajama's rule!

11 Terrorists good, America Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad, you're coming through loud and clear Background. Where ever there is to be evil found on earth, scratch the surface and the U.S is behind it. Get a life hippy.

12 You know I can fix any link that does not suck.

13 Hmm Maryland?

14 rita recieves all of our information but does not necessarily communicate back to us. I read her intel alerts daily and i too have informed her of things and have not heard back from her, but i am confident that she has recieved my messages. if you recall, she has reported on several occassions that these groups are also becoming more conscious and have been recieving "warnings" from their "friends" to be careful of when and where they send out their "communiques" for fear of being caught kudos to both you and rita for picking up on that link between the two groups. somehow i am not surprised. there is always something strange with those who hide their faces. it reminds me of the old southern police forces and the KKK. keep up the excellent work.

15 Margaret Hassan, God Bless her sole, was killed b/c she helped the vicitms of the oil for food scam and knew something she should not have known. This did not sit well with Jaques Chiraq and the Batthists. I do not believe for one second that the Christian Peacemakers who were there for two plus years had no insight into something that did not sit well with someone over there. This is the reason they have been taken and not released. Their organization is very pro Palestinian and one of the Canadians was very active in the Palestinian cause. They f****ed up indeed, just as they did with Daniel Pearl who had pictures taken with Sheik Yassin and just as Zarqawi did by shooting up a Palestinian wedding party in Jordan. But it is most likely too late.

16 "I think their apparent indifference to the worldwide pleas of Muslims from all political persuasions raises an interesting question of whether or not the kidnappers are jihadists as they claim to be." Background, and why would jihadists respond to the "worldwide" pleas of muslims? Isn't it your story that these terrorists aren't true muslims? Talk about a Freudian slip.

17 That's exactly what they claim, Carlos. I eagerly await a response to your question. Eagerly await, but do not expect one.

18 Why are you contacting UFO hunters? Oh wait, that's SETI, not SITE. ha.

19 To answer the commentary: Terrorists bad.... death squads bad. It's not a zero sum game. The "Salvador Option" may have worked against poor peasants in Central American rainforests... but extra judicial assassinations haven't really gotten the Israelis very far now have they? Painting all Muslims as rabid death cultists is as irresponsible as painting all Americans as Halliburton apologists. There is no question that Hamas, Hezbollah, and most of the other known terrorist organizations that jumped on the "free the hostage" bandwagon are merely looking for some cheap publicity. But how do you explain the ordinary people demonstrating every day in the West Bank? How do you explain Muslims in Canadian detention? The fact is the CPT 4 do have credibility amongst Palestinians. That is why they were travelling with Iraqi Palestinians and visiting Sunni clerics. Those are the groups being targeted by Shi'ite death squads. Folks here claim a) they have evidence of files linking IAI to the kidnappers, b) Rita Katz plagiarized the findings. OK... is there any forensics to back up their assertion? Rita Katz has noted in at least one interview that groups actually steal each others tapes in an effort to claim credit. How do you know where the tapes came from? Here's the thing about IAI that raises a question for me... the CPT 4 are well regarded and well known by Palestinians... They are in Iraq investigating death squad activities that target Palestinians. IAI originally included former militants from the Palestine Liberation Front. That is the group started by Abu Abbas. The PLF are allied with Fatah. Even Fatah's militant wing, Al Aqsa Martyrs, is calling for the release of the hostages....

20 I'm quite skeptical of the reaction from so many that if terrorist groups are calling for their release then, "by golly" there must be something to it. Let us not forget what prompted the Shias to behave in the manner that they were subjected to for decades. I'm not condoning what they've been caught doing - since we've found at least two instances of them torturing people (real torture) in basements or prisons. So don't get me wrong. But it seems to me that there's something terribly wrong with those who are quick to react to the terrorists being upset or the thinly veiled, underlying hope that they can find Americans involved somehow. Yet, they continue with the stark silence on the bleak atmosphere found in Fallujah with copious amounts of blood, executed bodies and those fortunate enough to be found chained and tortured, but still alive. Not to mention their lack of concern for all the other hostages brutally murdered who never did a thing to anyone. The groups screaming bloody murder about mistreatment at the hands of Shias while remaining silent on the daily murders of innocent people in Iraq and everywhere else in the world by Sunnis, Wahabis and Qutbs is what I find disgusting and duplicitous. And they make fun of the US with their slogan "Don't do as I do, do as I say"? Hello? Background Noise can barely contain his glee at the hope of further discrediting more Americans. No matter how far he has to stretch truth or what weak connections he has to make. If he wants an explanation of those "ordinary people" demonstrating everyday - they're doing that in larger numbers everywhere. They're sick and damn tired of terrorism, expecially now that they realize they're tragets too. They're demonstrating in Jordan, Pakistan India and even here in the US. They're releasing some pretty strong statements denouncing terrorism in all its forms and the press is largely ignoring it or merely mentioning these statements as an aside. But let the terror groups utter a single word an it's splashed across the front page. As I've said before, the CPTers don't care when people are mistreated unless the mistreatment is a retaliation or defense. They're anti-war and there's no war unless someone fights back. And CPT's goal is to document anything wrong, no matter how minute, committed by those who fight back - completely ignoring who started it and what atrocities they may have committed. I find it all deplorable and Background Noise and others play willingly into their propaganda scheme.

21 I have four comments in response to the follow ups on my original post. First, the issue of the IAI raises questions for me. They were founded in part by former PLF members. Given the fact the CPT 4 are well known and generally adored by Palestinians, it seems odd that a group containing PLF fighters would do anything to harm them. Especially when the most radical elements of Fatah (e.g. Al Aqsa Martyrs) are calling for their release. Second, for those who think I am painting this as "terrorist good ....America bad".... let be very clear about my motivations here. There are two. First is doing whatever can be done to increase the survivability of the hostages. Since this hostage ordeal began, most efforts on behalf of the hostages were aimed at publicizing Muslim appeals for their release because everyone assumed jihadists were holding them. These do not seem to be having any impact. If the kidnappers are related to death squads, let us hope the people who have control over them realize that if these hostages are killed, even US major media will have to cover the story in some detail. The reason they went to Iraq will inevitably become a topic of discussion. That would naturally focus worldwide attention on the "special police and military units" they were investigating in the first place. Third has to do with our obligation to support our troops. I know people who have been deployed. I know people who ARE deployed. I know people who have lost children. The people serving are not an abstraction to me. The vast majority of Americans serving in Iraq are decent men and women trying as hard as they can to do the right thing even though they are working under terrible conditions. Someone talked about the soldier administering morphine to a dying child. Who can forget the soldiers who defended the Bagdhad orphanage during the early looting period? Not everything is so dramatic. The kid who was killed... he was building roads. He was making things better. I have a whole new appreciation for highways now. We take highways for granted. Although this site doesn't accept BBC links, the fact is the gruesome report of tortured prisoners found in the basement of the Interior Ministry reported it was American troops who found them. The death squads and the "Salvador Option" are an insult to the men and women who are decent. They sully our reputation and mock the values people are dying to defend. I feel obliged to honor their sacrifice and defend our values by having the courage to ask direct questions, expect honest answers, and demand accountability from policymakers. Finally, I am not looking for some cheap way to use this situation to voice my opposition to invading Iraq before we finished in Afghanistan. There are plenty of other things I can point to that more directly support that argument. I am not interested in arguing that here. All I will say is that before we went in a woman who grew up in a military family, and married into a military family said it best in her letter to the editor: "I am not haunted by the fear that my brother will be sent to war. I believe there are beliefs and causes worth taking risks for, worth fighting and dying for. Rather, I am haunted by the fear that he will be sent to war thoughtlessly, carelessly." -- Cara Cannon Byington (Jan. 15, 2003)

22 Oyster: Although my prior response addressed criticims and attributions you and others have raised, I wanted to directly address your mistaken attribution about the Christian Peacemaker Teams in general and Tom Fox in particular. They are not turning a blind eye to one side's atrocities. They reject ALL violence. Tom Fox left a blog http://waitinginthelight.blogspot.com where he discusses these matters in detail. His first entry makes it clear that he is motivated in part by the quote from Jesus found in the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas: "Don't lie and don't do what you hate because all things are revealed under heaven." He specifically talks about how confronting soldiers and kidnappers will require him to move beyond anger and fear. That is very hard to do. But it is noble. It is honest. It is important. It is the way out of this mess. Fox and Kember are not kids. They are seasoned men who have struggled against violence for decades. They do that out of a compassionate expression of their faith. It may be hard for you to believe they love their fellow country men as much as the people they seek to help. You have to accept that on faith. I agree with you that ordinary people around the world are speaking out against terrorism because they simply want to live their lives. I also agree with you that media coverage of the spectacular has routinely crowded out the voices of reason. It enrages me that zealots on all sides routinely betray the aspirations of the people they claim to defend. I carry no brief for terrorists. I don't believe Hamas, Hezbollah, or Islamic Jihad love Palestinians any more than Saddam Hussein did. Anyone who uses children as cannon fodder is wicked. There is no other way to view that. What sets men like Fox, Loney, Sooden, and Kember apart from most people is they hold the captives and captors in their prayers. They struggle to find that place beyond anger and fear. When I think of King Hussein's eulogy for Yitzhak Rabin, I think that is what he was talking about when he spoke of "the camp of peace" when he addressed his comments to "those who live in darkness who are the enemies of life" and said "this is where we stand. This is our camp. May God bless you with the realization that you must join it and we pray that He will, but otherwise we are not ashamed, nor are we afraid, nor are we anything but determined to fulfill the legacy for which my friend fell." I remember when he gave that eulogy how the words tumbled out of him with a force I could only describe as a wind that came through time. It wasn't until later that I learned he was a direct descendent of the Prophet Muhhamed. Before the war Mike Kelly called the people opposing it "Liars, Frauds, and Hypocrites". He mellowed a bit when it was pointed out that he was maligning many honest people of faith. He declared they were "useful idiots" dancing to the Worker's World Party's A.N.S.W.E.R. When it was pointed out that many of the mothers marching on the Mall were motivated more by Mark and Luke than Marx and Lenin, he modified his tone. He spoke about the horrors he witnessed with his own eyes in Kuwait and the need to confront evil. When the war came, he didn't sit behind a desk in Boston and write testosterone-laden cant. He went to Iraq. He didn't go because he wanted a thrill ride as an "embedded journalist" doing victory laps like Ollie North. He went because he felt it was important to witness and report honestly on the war he truly believed needed to be fought. He died too young and we are the poorer for it. But he left us a gift. The final question in the final paragraph of the final column for the "Atlantic," published after his death, said it all. It is a question worth pondering. It is a question that will haunt the men who took us to war from now until the end of history. "The question is whether the employment of this unfathomable power will be largely for good, leading to the liberation of a tyrannized people and the spread of freedom, or largely for bad, leading to imperialism and colonialism,with a consequent corruption of America's own values and freedoms." - Mike Kelly , "What Now?", The Atlantic Monthly , May 2003 With that gift comes an obligation to write that future history mindful of the legacy we were given so we may leave a legacy worthy of those who will follow.

23 They are getting smarter about what they post and where. They have been caught too many times. I'm having jihad troll withdrawls. That has got to be teh funnest part of Jawa. They come and post and we put em up on the front page or take em down. Finally they realize posting here is not so bright. Darn. But really the commentators and writers here deserve a big old pat on the back. We have trolled many into giving themselves away. I've not posted on that for a bit becuase ti's just not there. As soon as I see one thought boom we'll let him have it. Filthy had one last week go over there and check it out.

24 According to Background noise, King Hussein is a direct descendant of Mohammed. WHAT? Somebody give me some proof of this. Please!

25 Through his great-grandfather, the prophet Mohammad was himself a Hashemite, a subdivision of the Quraysh tribe of what is now Saudi Arabia. The most revered Hashemite line then passed through Hassan, son of the ProphetÂ’s daughter Fatima and her husband Ali, the fourth caliph. Hassan was the last of this line to hold the disputed claim to the caliphate, but his progeny eventually established themselves as hereditary emirs of Mecca, the role continuing under Ottoman rule. The last of the line to rule as emir of Mecca and King of Hijaz along the Red Sea was Hussain bin Ali. Ibn Saudi, the founder of Saudi Arabia, conquered the Hijaz in 1924 and deposed Hussein, thus ending Hashemite rule of the region and the holy places of Islam. The new Saudi dynasty, supported by the Wahhabi Muslim sect, proclaimed itself Guardians of the Shrines of Islam HusseinÂ’s dispossessed sons, Abdullah and Faisal, were later placed on the newly-created thrones of Amman and Baghdad, respectively. The Hashemite line survived in Jordan but not in Baghdad. Faisal was assassinated on July 14, 1958 in a military coup that soon led to the rise of Saddam Hussein at the head of the Baath regime. In 1951, Abdullah was murdered by a Muslim zealot at the door of al Aqsa mosque on JerusalemÂ’s Temple Mount. Two years later, his grandson Hussein succeeded to the Jordanian throne as a boy king. He reigned until his death in 1999, when he was succeeded by his eldest son Abdullah II. http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=921 At the time of his passing on February 7, 1999, His Majesty was the longest serving executive head of state in the world. Of great significance to Muslims throughout the world, the late King Hussein was also the forty-second generation direct descendant of the Prophet Muhammad. http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/biography.html His Majesty King Abdullah II is the 43rd generation direct descendant of the Prophet Muhammad. http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/king_abdullah2.html

26 By there very words and deeds, the CPTers have taken a side in this. To say they deplore the acts of terrorism, yet, carefully document every misstep of those who seek to liberate the oppressed and focus on what they believe to be the motives of the liberators, portraying them as wrong-doers at every opportunity, is disingenuous at best and criminal at worst. I stand by my assessment. Their actions belie what they say. I find them to be misled souls. I don't believe they're evil. I believe they truly think that what they do is just and correct. I think they're wrong. That's all.

27 I'm not surprised they're all related with the amount of inbreeding in the muslim world.

28 Ah the CPTs! Hmmmmm ... If they're killed how would this play out to a western audience? Why do people insist on believing that the jidhadists are concerned with western audiences for anything except shock and fear factor? How would this play out to an arab/islamist street audience - and the jidhadists themselves? That's the real question.

29 8ackground: How long have you been out of the Iraqi asylum?

30 Oyster, with all due respect for your opinion, and no small respect at that, I must say this: "Misled souls" my ass. They are flaming liberals who hate America and would aid terrorists against us in any way, because according to them, we're the only evil in the world. You're just too nice a person to believe the awful truth, and bless you for it, but I think you've given them too much credit. People who are so mentally defective should not be allowed to walk free, much less be given any legitimacy.

31 IM, at first I thought you were going to correct me on using "there" instead of "their" in my first sentence ;-) (I hate it when I screw up like that) But ... point taken, sir.

32 Howie wrote: They are getting smarter about what they post and where. They have been caught too many times. I'm having jihad troll withdrawls. That has got to be teh funnest part of Jawa. They come and post and we put em up on the front page or take em down. Finally they realize posting here is not so bright. Darn. But really the commentators and writers here deserve a big old pat on the back. We have trolled many into giving themselves away. First off, it's a little on the juvenile side to deride someone as a troll when you can't address any of the comments in a substantive way. That's just lazy. Second, I realize this is your private little playground and First Amendment issues don't apply. That's why I make my points respectfully and without invective. Third, and this is the most important for you in particular. The reason I stumbled across this corner of the net was you were claiming to have confirmation about the likely identity of the kidnappers. Instead, you have taken the intellectually untenable position of saying: a) Rita Katz plagiarized your work and b) Rita Katz confirms your finding Plagiarism and confirmation are not synonyms.

33 Ackground has realized I enjoy games!!!!! And if I label a troll a troll it's just that. Personally when some jihadist moron posts stuff like. "Bush must die", "F*uck all Christians", F*uck the Virgin Mary" Death to this that and the other I'll call em a jihadist troll all I want. Hey you guys it's a news flash. Howie is a bit juvenile and enjoys blog games with Jihadist trolls and loves to watch and catch the little bastards. It's just like fishin don't tell me you don't like fishin.

34 Howie: NEWSFLASH: There's a reason they call it fishing instead of catching. Speaking of clarification.... care to distinquish your claim of confirmation from plaigerism, or did you get caught with your pants down?

35 Uh would you care to read the authors name Mr. is probably greg.

36 Shackleford posted it. CTT said he has also sent SITE the info. You have said You know I can fix any link that does not suck. I went back to review it and apparently the whole diatribe about the plagiarism has been snipped from this thread. So correct me if I'm wrong: You in charge of this site or not? You exercise editorial discretion or not? Regardless of who answers it, the question is still out there based on material originally provided by this thread: Did SITE "confirm" or "plagiarize" the evidence cited? Pick one. It can't be both.

37 Rusty can speak for himself he's a big boy.

38 Oh yeah. Links eh. I don't get the hostility. I tried your CNN link and sure enough it was rejected. I will fix links for you but they would be subject to my own judgement of rather the link was worth the trouble or not. I'd do this for just about any one for just about any link. But that was just a heads up that just because you submit one does not mean I will post it but I may post it.

39 Yeah not cathing any becaue the deep freeze is full maybe.

40 never in a million years would i say rita katz plagerized or snipped anything from me. i merely said i have reported things to her and not heard back from her. sorry but this is a "we" thing and as far as i am concerned, i do not need the credit. she and i are definately "fighting" (and neither of us want to be by the way) on the same side, i can assure you of that. but thank your for your concern mr. noise

41 howie/rusty did you hear the latest "chatter" about the peaceworkers and what they are saying "to do" with them? i won't post it here as i do not want to violate any rules or cause any trouble, but i may post it at mine later on, waiting for some confirmations.

42 CTT .... maybe you missed the opening lines of the post that started this thread: Islamic Army in Iraq Link to Peace Activist Hostages Confirmed The Jawa Report was the first media outlet to report that there was a possible connection between the Islamic Army in Iraq and the Swords of Righteousness Brigade, the group responsible for kidnapping four Western peace activists in Iraq, in a November 29th posting. In fact, what is said by the director of the SITE Institute in this Canadian National Post article comes awfully close to plagiarism. [emphasis added] Hence my question: Did SITE confirm the finding independently or did they parrot it? You can appreciate how those are qualitatively different. One increases credibility and the other makes you look like an echo chamber.

43 Strange that you mention the word plagiarism.

44 I didn't say she 'plagiarized' it, I said it 'comes awfully close to plagiarism'. That means what she is saying is strikingly similar to what I have been saying. Hence, the qualified statement. But, thanks for playing.

45 Oh...well that comes awfully close to answering it... You are awfully close to being an echo chamber.... or you are awfully close to being full of crap.... or awfully close to both. Thanks for clearing that up.

1 I hope she is released safely, her work in Iraq is far more important that the CPT fellows that seemed to have got all the attention.

2 I think they are shaking their fist at Angie Merkel.

3 The motivation is ransom. This theft extorted by murder is just one of the many violations of the Ten Commandments sanctioned by Islam, on the grounds that those damned Jews and Christians are not true to the Mosaic law.

4 Alec, The Koran encourages just this kind of thing. It clearly says to kill the infidel and take their riches. If the victim is not Muslim, then it is not a crime. This was the gasoline that fueled the jihad; the looting, raping, and enslaving of people for the riches this provided.

5 JJ - very true. That is why muslims true to their faith cannot be trusted when the knives come out.

6 No reason or motive? They just make them up as they go along. Talibani is being very naive about this one.

7 Maybe the Germans will learn that they should have been there. I mean aren't the Germans the ones who caused the movement of Jews to a homeland? Which in turn caused the displacement of the palestinian people. Which caused the hated and side taking by other nations. Shit!! this entire crap in the middle east was caused by the Germans slaughter of another people. Maybe, the muslims are just copying what they seen the Germans do to the Jews. Asshole Germans. May the French Frogs invade you. Naw! On second thought the frogs couldn't whip their own asses.

1 As we outsource the duties of the occupation, civilians become functionally indistinguishable from military and diplomatic participants in the same effort. What remains is the question of who is a productive target and who is not. The terrorists/insurgents/partisans make choices, and in the case of some choices such as "peace activists" they are counterproductive. I would prefer Islamists continue to kill "innocent" (whatever that means) peace creeps and other silly do- gooders who shouldn't be in Iraq to start with. It is better than if they observed "civilised" rules of engagement because their barbarism is counterproductive. If I am willing to sacrifice myself as an airman, I certainly don't mind the death of misguided loonies who want to interfere in our process. There is no innocence in a Kulturkampf. Inaction is still a choice, and he who is not with us is against us.

2 These are not draft dodgers working for the resistance, only pacifist fools. They deserve our sympathy because they are victims.

3 Further, let us 'assume'--incorrectly that they are 'the enemy' by their actions and inactions. How is it possible that 'the enemy' is held captive by 'the enemy'?? Moreover, once an enemy combatant is in the hands of our troops they are not to be harmed under the rules of warfare. We do not kill our prisoners. Why? Because killing can only be justified under the condition that the target is a combatent. Once surrendered or captured they are no longer a combatent. These activists are prisoners. Even if they were POWs (which they aren't) the exptectation is that they will not be harmed.

4 I would generally agree with your article. It is a sliding slope when the media gets a hold of a story and beats it into the ground. My opinion is that as a society we are generally numb to the effects of the media. Not their fault. 100% ours for letting it choke us. To shed light on one of your arguments: Why all the attention on these 4 CPTers and not others? I believe it is an issue of monetary compensation (and certainly bandwagonism). The CPTers pay their own way to get to troubled regions. They do not accept monetary payment for their work. All that is left, is their connection with the people they work with. The human bonds they create and have created are evident in the pleas from around the globe. From what i've seen and the people i've personally talked to, is that at least 2 of these men have made lasting relationships with a number of the groups and individuals making pleas. The CPT works in Hebron, Toronto, Douglas, AZ and Iraq. Palestinians were one of the first to come out publicly on the kidnapping, staging street protests because these men worked in Palestine, walking children to school, acting as international observers, confronting, face to face, the Israeli army. There's numerous photo documentaries out there to check out. In Canada, they've worked tirelessly to give 3 Muslim men fair trials since they were snatched up in the night by security officials. In Iraq, they helped to create a Muslim Peacemaker Team (MPT), giving those individuals skills and confidence to deal with the hell they live in. The war in Iraq had to do with spreading democracy but it also, and still does, have a lot to do with money. Money spent and earned on reconstruction. This was well planned out years before the war started. And when the majority of the population and groups pleaing for the release of these hostages are those with less money than I, it makes perfect sense, the irony of this whole incident. Many people feel a connection with these men. Question is, who are these hostage takers? The enemy capturing the enemy. As I see it the only enemy these 4 CPT men have are: the Pentagon, Israel and misguided youth.

5 Todd, It is disgusting and wrong to think that a man who is in Iraq to help rebuild is deserving of less attention than four who are in Iraq to bring 'peace'. Their connections have nothing to do with media coverage. Each hostage has a network of people who love them. Rather, WHO their connections are with has EVERYTHING to do with media coverage. Connected to U.S. military or Halliburton: undeserving Connected to Left: deserving More than disgusting--ignorant and shaped by a worldview that blames America first while defending the savages in the world who fight her.

6 In fact, pretty much all the forces opposed the U.S. have joined their united voices in condemning this disgusting act of barbarity. Because the CPT is on their side. Schulz was one of the enemies, one of those trying to turn Iraq into something other than a third-world cesspool run by the Big Thug On Top. Equally enlightening is the attitude of the same groups to the holding of AQ members in Gitmo compared to the continuing mystery of what happened to Matt Maupin. Gitmo's a nearly daily whine for the usual suspects; unless you're in his home town (which I am), I doubt you hear about Matt Maupin more than once a month.

7 Rusty, I would never blame America for this and neither savages. It's a very small percent of the world population that is controlling this whole affair and America the nation is not a part of that group (though some claim US citizenship). It is however, attractive and correct to think that a man is less deserving of the support of Sunni clerics, than 4 peacemakers when the man receives money for his work. I think you can relate as I assume you receive no compensation for your tireless work here exposing truths that mainstream media would otherwise be afraid to.

8 Hey Todd, why don't you go join the fucking jihad if you only see the Pentagon and Israel as the enemy you fucking liberal traitor piece of shit. Maybe if you do, some Marine will do humanity a favor and blow your goddamn head off. Fuck you very much, and I hope you die in great pain very soon.

9 Agent Smith says those who killed the peaceful hostages will each get 72 diced habanero peppers inserted into their asses in the burning inferno of Hell. Agent Brown is searching the Dante database for their future locations. Agent Jones says that Improbulus Maximus must stop the knife talk.

10 Improbulus Maximus Read again friend. the only enemy these 4 CPT men have are: the Pentagon, Israel and misguided youth. not my enemy, theirs.

11 Question is, who are these hostage takers? The enemy capturing the enemy. As I see it the only enemy these 4 CPT men have are: the Pentagon, Israel and misguided youth. Talk about misguided. Todd, you seem very well-spoken for someone who has such flawed perceptions. If someone is robbed and stabbed at a bank machine, do you blame the police force for not being there? Do you blame the bank that brought him to that location? Do you blame knives because they are dangerous? Do you blame television for it's depicted violence? Do you blame local communities for not putting more of an effort into social programs to reduce crime? Do you blame an ethnic group for creating such a hateful response from an individual? Do you blame the victim, because he shouldn't have been there in such a dangerous environment anyway? It seems too simple to blame the actual criminal who would do such a heinous act. Much too simple for you, eh Todd? I have a simple theory. If the terrorists didn't kidnap these four individuals, they probably wouldn't die from the acts of terrorists.

12 Agent Smith blames Greyrooster and Jester Maximus. You have no pride and everyone looks down on you for your crimes against the Core Network. Agent Brown, in a "Frenchman Moment" says that Hondo is really Peugeot.

13 >Do you blame the police force for not being there? no >Do you blame the bank that brought him to that location? yes >Do you blame knives because they are dangerous? yes >Do you blame television for it's depicted violence? yes >Do you blame local communities for not putting more of an effort into social programs to reduce crime? yes >Do you blame an ethnic group for creating such a hateful response from an individual? no >Do you blame the victim, because he shouldn't have been there in such a dangerous environment anyway? yes I am flawed but I like theories. If you want to maintain a war on terror, you must nurture terror. If you show love to someone, they will publicly defend your freedom.

14 Damn Todd, that's some retarded shit. God I hate pseudo-intellectuals.

15 I am flawed but I like theories. If you want to maintain a war on terror, you must nurture terror. If you show love to someone, they will publicly defend your freedom. That explains Usama Bin Laden and the US support for the mujahideen movement in Afghanistan. It's a twisted world, Todd. Sons can murder fathers, dogs can bite their owners, muslims can call others muslims "apostates" after beheading them, terrorists can kidnap and murder sympathetic peace activists. Love isn't some cure-all and this isn't Utopia. Everyone has an agenda, humans are driven by selfishness. I might agree with you on one thing though : If America didn't invade Iraq, then the peace activists wouldn't have been there to kidnap and kill. They would have just picked others to kidnap and kill, like Kurds, secular muslims, or otherwise. Terrorism has existed before America was a nation. Just like crime and violence.

16 "It is however, attractive and correct to think that a man is less deserving of the support of Sunni clerics, than 4 peacemakers when the man receives money for his work." ?? Did I understand that right? Because that hardly needs a fisking. It deserves outright scorn and rejection. As long as they have you for an apologist, that's the way it will always be. And your last list of answers seals the deal. Todd, you are effed up. By your estimation, everyone is guilty of any number of perceived sins except those who commit them. Now wipe the drool off your chin and shut the computer off.

17 what can i say, the devil works thru me. agreed MidnightSun, you're invited for dinner. you can come too Rusty, i like your style

18 Agent Smith says the Devil is not to be trusted! Satan is the biggest deceiver. Agent Brown says Satan currently lives in the small town of Humble, Texas, but enjoys Denton more. He has been spotted in Washington, wearing an American flag cape and purple underwear on his head. Agent Jones says Satan is a prime threat to the Core Network and that the Architect is now on the case. The Architect has become angry.

19 Since when has my name been maximus agent smith...I say you are a bogus agent.

20 My heart goes out to the friends and family of Ronald Schulz. I desperately hope that the claims of his execution prove untrue and that there is still hope for his release. As for why my focus has been on the four CPT workers and not Mr. Schulz, it comes down to the fact that one of the four CPT workers is a personal friend of mine and I have over a decade of acquaintance with CPT as an organization. There is only so much energy I can commit, I'm afraid, and only so much heartbreak I can take. As my outburst yesterday showed, it's a difficult time. That said, I hold no arbitrary hate for Mr. Schulz and would *never* stoop to mocking and passing judgment on him in a public forum. To any who have, you should be ashamed. Now, instead of whining about media favoritism and begrudging those hostages whose plight has hit the mainstream media, let's take this as an opportunity to analyse these two hostage situations and learn what we can from them to, at the very least, better equip ourselves for the *next* hostages that are taken. Because, sad as it may seem, I think we all know that these will not be the last. Rule #1 - If you're going to Iraq, be it as a security consultant, a soldier, or a peace activist, go on the assumption that you *will* be kidnapped. Rule #2 - Have an exit strategy in place to get you out of your hostage-taking situation. For Mr. Schulz, I presume that his exit strategy was to be rescued by American forces. While that's not the exit strategy I would choose, I certainly don't begrudge him it. For CPT, the strategy is to exert moral pressure on the kidnappers from within the Muslim community. Rule #3 - Take clear and deliberate steps to enable your chosen exit strategy. If my strategy is to pay a ransom, I'd have a Swiss bank account already set up and stuffed with untraceable cash. If my strategy is to be rescued by American forces, I would have a bloody satellite tracking chip embedded in my skull and make damn sure that the American commanders were aware of my location at all times. If my strategy is to exert moral pressure from within the Muslim community, then I must build relationships and a reputation of integrity and respect within that community to ensure that its members will speak out on my behalf. What's more, I should probably build relationships with the press & media to ensure that my plight is being broadcast to all and sundry in my darkest hour. Rule #4 - Give your kidnappers a reason to keep you alive until your exit strategy can be enacted. If my strategy is to pay a ransom, then I'd better blab my mouth off about how much money I have at my disposal and promise bonuses if I'm released unharmed. If I'm waiting for US forces, I'd better start feeding my kidnappers a slow trickle of valued intelligence (truth or lie) to buy some time. If I'm waiting for moral pressure to be exerted, I will try to identify with my hostage-takers and build relationships with them, keeping tension levels as low as possible. Rule #5 - Accept the fact that your best-laid plans may not be enough. Be prepared to accept your own death as a very real possibility and do your best to make peace with that reality. Should your time come, have a plan in place for how you intend to face death with your humanity, pride, and nobility intact. Maybe that means lashing out and taking as many of them down with you as possible. Maybe that means facing it stoicly. Maybe it means embracing your own tears and horror. Maybe it means finding God. I don't know - I can only assume that it must be different for everyone. So, by my assessment, those are the four core rules of how to be a Westerner in Iraq these days. As for why the press has paid more attention to CPT than to Mr. Schulz, it's because CPT has very deliberately integrated the press into its exit strategy. If I'm awaiting a ransom or a spec-ops rescue, on the other hand, press coverage is irrelevant at best and exposes me to undue risk at worst. Now the general opinion here at Jawa regarding CPT's chosen exit strategy is that it's inneffectual and that their best odds lie with an armed rescue. If you truly believe that, then don't worry about how much press coverage Hostage X is getting versus Hostage Y because, by your own argument, press coverage and moral pressure are irrelevant. Personally, I disagree but, out of respect for the friends and family of Mr. Schultz, I recommend we leave that discussion to other threads.

21 Agent Smith says to Improbulus Jester that your alliance is revealed through your conversations. Hondo Oyster is another alliance. Greyrooster Satan is another. Agent Brown adds that Smith is falling into the Washington Trap by referring to several groups as if they were one single force.

22 Our Quakers are smarter than your capitalists. Now please go fuck yourself, Rob. Really, trying to pawn off that Schultz is dead because his "exit strategy"{ was relying on grunts to rescue him.

23 The words of Markos Zunigas, from The Daily Kos Damn. Can't even get someone's name correct when going all batshit insane on them and you're supposed to be taken seriously, Rusty? Good one, big guy. Security consultant? It's called mercenary. Sucks that he was killed but he should have thought about his family and friends before deciding that the riches of the mercenary trade were a higher priority. Actions have fuckin consequences and if you decide that taking hundreds of thousands of dollars to be a mercenary in a combat zone is worth the risk of your family and friends losing your existence in this life....well you've agreed to take the consequences when they come. Screw em.

24 The Washington Post says the U.S. military is probing a video that surfaced on the internet and purports to show indiscriminate weapons fire by private contractors directed at Iraqi civilians. MORE HERE. Of course, the context the MSM doesn't report on is that these vehicles have enormous signs on them warning other vehicles to stay back or they will be fired on. Still, the video does not look good and I applaud the military for looking into the matter. That's rich of you to applaud the military supposedly (yeah right) looking into the matter, Rusty. Kudos on the beautiful irony you present. And you wonder why one would be kidnapped and murdered in the context of he and his co-workers being a part of the industry who shoots and kills indiscriminately? Jesus, what planet are you from? Did I mention, SCREW EM?

25 Agent Smith: An alliance with Hondo suits me just fine.

26 I love when the little moronic leftards with their microscopic intellects come in spouting the same crap they do over at the little coward marky zuniga's site, thinking they've dealt a crushing blow, as an ant which nips at an elephant's heel, thinking "take that!" I await the day with giddy anticipation when things go to hell, TSHTF, as it were, so I can start my collection of leftard skulls with which to decorate my fenceposts.

27 Agent Smith How long do you plan to stay with this Matrix sctick? Granted, some of your material is good (it is an aqquired taste however - drool humor), but it seems to me quality has been dropping off lately - and clearly you have been shotgunning commentary rather than point focusing. Its just an observation.

28 In other words, Agent Smith, how long do you want to keep acting like a dumb ass? Ohhhhhh, you're not acting, no wonder you are so good at it.

29 Improbulus Chickenhawk Maximus, I'll buy ya a beer on November 8th so we can both revel in the fact that your warmonger party has gone down in flames because of the idiocy of leaders who support your lies, hatred, fraud, and murder. Of course, you'll have to leave mommy's basement for that beer so that decreases the chances of you taking me up on it about 500 fold. Screw em!

30 I think he's hitting on you maxie - personally I think you should tell yo don't go that way - not that there's anything wrong with it (trying to be PC - I don't want to upset the boy).

31 To "the shorter Rob" - actually that wasn't my point at all. Let's be cold-hearted and honest here - while no one's claiming that my friend is dead yet, no one's claiming that he's released, either. Same goes for his fellow CPT-ers. Their exit strategy in this case is by no means proven. My point is simply that, if you're going in, make sure you have a way out. I don't care what your way out is. You can put on your tin-foil hat (they seem popular around here) and wait for UFOs to rescue you, if you think it will work. Were it in my power, I'd have every bloody hostage home for Christmas, even good ol' Improbulus. My personal opinion is that Schultz was in Iraq as a mercenary, not an electrician but that doesn't mean he deserves kidnapping, death, or mockery. If anyone here is planning to follow in his footsteps, just be sure you bring your trusty tracking device and come out alive, all right? If and when the four CPT-ers do make it out alive, you and I can sit down and thumb our noses at each other to our hearts' content but I'm not fool enough to start now. People's lives are still very much at risk.

32 I would love to say I have the energy and the will to put my life on hold for everyone kidnapped in Iraq. It's finals week. I should have spent today studying. I spent it checking the news instead. I can't do that for every single person who's taken in Iraq. I do it for Tom because he was the best youth group chaperone ever. There's some truth to what you're saying. When we gathered to pray for Tom tonight, we prayed also for every innocent civilian unjustly held in Iraq. But I'm not concerned for Tom because he's a liberal, or even because he's a Quaker. I'm concerned for him because he's one of the most amazing people I've ever had the privilage of knowing, and if he dies, something incredible will die with him. I'm sure you won't believe that, but if you met him, you would. Everyone who's met him does. As far as him being a silly naive do-gooder who deserves to get himself killed, Tom had no illusions that his politics would protect him. He isn't sitting around waiting for the Marines to come rescue him--indeed, he's asked them not to. He is in Iraq because he believes in something, and that belief is more important to him than his life. And if that is weakness, then I hope God will someday replace the world's collective apathy with the strength to be that weak.

33 Annalee, What exactly does this man believe in? For the life of me, I can't find out exactly what he or any of the others were doing. Please enlighten me, and if you know, please give me some details, if it would not endanger anyone.

34 They believe in respecting that of the divine in every person. They believe that every person deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. They were in Iraq documenting and calling for an end to detainee abuses, and advocating for the human and civil rights of Iraqi civillians. They were also trying to foster and encourage nonviolent alternatives to militarization-- working in local communities to help Iraq establish itself as a free and independant country. On this last note, I'd point out something my father told me once. He served in the air force during Nam, and he tells me the loneliest sound in the world is Taps, on Christmas Eve, when you're half the world away from home. Encouraging Iraqi independance means facilitating America's withdrawal and allowing the men and women of our armed forces to come home. In short, if Christian Peacemaker Teams and its sister organization Muslim Peacemaker Teams are successful, everyone wins.

35 The Matrix is older than you know. It is with you when you pay your taxes or pray to your human leader.

36 Ok. Let's do be honest. Your friend isn't rotting next to Schultz because he's of more practical use alive. I think everyone who is honest can atleast admit that, no? There are some things worse than death even to an atheist like me. I'm sure your "friend" will come to realize that soon enough. And when he does I hope his god is around to rock him to sleep at night. Schultz is dead because he was speaking through his actions. Your friend is not because he chose his words(and apparently friends) well.

37 Shoter Rob - Personally, I'm still hoping and praying that Mr. Schultz is not rotting at all. Please expain to me exactly what practical reasons these kidnappers have for keeping Annalee's and my friends alive. Trust me, I wish there were a million such reasons but there simply aren't. No one's going to be paying a ransom. Heck, CPT struggles to even pay its volunteers' flight costs. Even I'm not naive enough to expect the American administration to suddenly reverse three years of foreign policy for the sake of four peace activists. As for press and media coverage, this particular hostage-taking is actually driving a significant wedge between the kidnappers and the rest of the Islamic community. I mean, bloody hell, when even Al Qaeda is coming out and calling you a bonehead for grabbing these four, you know you've got issues. The only thing keeping these four men alive right now is the worry on the kidnapper's part that the shit gets even deeper if they turn up dead. And by the way, when it comes to pacifism, CPT is pretty much the embodiment of the old 'actions speak louder than words' adage. I'm the one doing the talking so go ahead and level that accusation at me but CPT workers put their beliefs into action every single day. If they were just talkers, they wouldn't have even been in Iraq in the first place.

38 Jesusland Joe - Thank you for what appears to be an honest question regarding CPT's work in Iraq. The easiest way to understand their role is to think of them as journalists and war correspondents. Rather than being embedded with fighting troops, however, they're embedded with everyday citizens, documenting their lives and trying to raise awareness of the dangers and difficulties that these people face on a daily basis. Some of those dangers and difficulties are the direct result of actions taken by US forces while others are the direct result of actions taken by the insurgency. Others are tied more to entirely unpoliticized incidents of banditry. Here's a brief outline of their work in Iraq, as reported on their website: --------- October 2002 Stop the War - the team and successive delegations sought to: * support the UN Weapons Inspection Program as an alternative to war * expose the injustice and deaths from the US-led economic sanctions * put a human face on Iraq, helping people in the U.S. understand that Saddam Hussein was not the only person living in Iraq March/April 2003 Shock & Awe - CPTers stayed in Baghdad in order to: * stand alongside Iraqi families * provide an alternative voice to the reporters “embedded” with Coalition forces * use their bodies to protect critical civilian infra-structure such as water treatment facilities, electrical plants, and hospitals. April/May 2003 Aftermath of the Bombing - team members traveled and worked to: * draw attention to the huge and under-reported problem of unexploded ordnance; * raise an alternative perspective on the invasion based on interviews with Iraqi friends. June 2003- September 2004 Ongoing Occupation - responding to persistent reports from families of Iraqi detainees, CPTers initiated efforts to: * document abuse of detainees by Coalition forces * assist Iraqis in gaining access to loved ones in detention * launch the Adopt-a-Detainee Campaign asking churches to advocate on behalf of Iraqi detainees * support a variety of new and old Iraqi human rights groups which suddenly found themselves with space and freedom to operate October - December 2004 Continuing Occupation - a rash of kidnapping foreign aid workers compelled the team to severely curtail its size and visibility. Iraqi partners, while acknowledging the potential danger CPT’s presence posed to them, encouraged the team to remain in Baghdad. January 2005 - Present Persisting Occupation - though travel remains treacherous and insurgent attacks continue on a daily basis, team members have ventured forth in response to urging from Iraqi human rights workers in Karbala. CPT’s persevering presence and establishment of trusting relationships throughout the shifting sands of circumstance laid the groundwork for today’s exciting partnership with Iraqis committed to forming a “Muslim Peace Team.”

39 The insurgents know as well as I do that whatever negative reporting done by CPT about the insurgents themselves will fall on deaf ears. It will never see the light of day. Hell, 99.9999% of the world and it's media knew fuck all about that org before this unfortunate event. The 0.0001% who knew of them knew only enough to corroborate what they already thought--evil U.S. occupying an oil-rich country. Do you honestly think people would give one wit about this story if these four had been only running soup kitchens for the poor and not blogging* about the evil Westerners? Hell no. They'd get the same treatment that bloke from Australia got. He was rescued and feted by the media expecting him to blast the occupiers. When he praised them and condemned his insurgent captors they couldn't run from him fast enough. Now I've been curt and intentionally rude because I don't share your view about the intrinsic value of the CPT'ers relative to any old U.S. contractor. You're an acquantance of one so I can understand your chauvinism in this case. But don't come here and cry in my lap expecting me to share in it. Your friend and his 3 comrades are alive because of the message they shout. Same with the reporter who googled himself to freedom. Normally I'd say the insurgents are fanatics hell-bent on slaughtering apostates, heretics, and infidels(in that order) with no regard for mitigation but they aren't automatons. They can see the lay of the land as well as anyone else. Your colleagues are alive because of a reason and it's not an exit strategy as you so pathetically tried to claim. Ask yourself why even the terrorists are upset over the kidnapping. And try to honestly answer without spinning another of your horrendous bullshit stories about exit strategies. * - Nice blog by the way...care to do an inventory of story topics? Didn't think so.

40 So CPT was against sanctions yet for inspections. I guess it takes a Quaker to wrap one's head around such things. Counterweight to embeds. Absolutely amazing.

41 shorter rob - What can I say? I've known about CPT for over a decade. In that time, I've been a member of a number of faith communities as well, some of them Mennonite, some of them Catholic, some ecumenical, some overly liberal, some overly conservative, some fairly mixed. Each of those faith communities has also been aware of CPT's work, sometimes to a lesser extent, sometimes to a greater one. Through CPT, they have come to a more nuanced understanding of various conflict regions around the world, Iraq included. Through CPT's work, they've been able to bear witness to another perspective that, for once, hasn't been filtered through the typical layers of official propaganda, media bias, and media apathy. I can only speak from my own experience as part of that 0.0001% you refer to. Before this kidnapping, you were part of the 99.9999% but now you're not. You can either squander this moment and simply use it as a means of corroborating what you already think or you can sit back, take a deep breath, stop projecting your fears and biases onto the page, and read what they're actually writing. And if you're referring to the CPT web site, I actually have done an inventory of story topics. As reported in some of my previous posts, a quick Google search through their archives of human rights abuse reports turns up many more links to "Saddam" or "Hussein" than it does to "Bush." So... have you done an inventory of story topics? While you're in there, take some time to read a few. Also, you express dismay about CPT serving as counterweights to military-embedded journalists. Care to explain? If the journalists were covering an election rather than a war, wouldn't you find it a little odd if the only reporting ever came from the candidate's campaign bus? I'm not saying that there shouldn't be military-embedded journalists (although I'd prefer it if CNN had journalists embedded on both sides). As over 99% of the human beings currently in Iraq are non-combatants, however, it seems obvious to me that their stories might be worth hearing. To put it another way, if a war was being fought in your hometown, wouldn't you want someone telling the world about how your grandmother was shot dead at a checkpoint and your child is currently being held for ransom? Maybe you wouldn't but I sure would.

42 "Annalee Flower Horne" knows "Tom" and that's all fine and dandy. I'm sure that by her estimation and from personal experience she thinks he's a lovely human being. However, she said they were there to document detainee abuse and advocating for the human and civil rights of Iraqi civillians? Did they document Saddam's abuses and advocate for the human and civil rights of Iraqis ? Did they document the torture and killing in Falluja before the terrorists were cleared out in November last year? Have they documented ANY abuses perpetrated by the terrorists during this entire engagement? Are they calling for the "insurgents" to stop the beheadings? I saw the picture of them standing behind their booth with the sign "Remember Hiroshima". Has anyone ever seen them stand at a booth with a sign "Remember September 11th" ??? Hell no. It seems to me that they're determined to "document" anything they find to be "abusive" committed by coalition forces, yet, they haven't "documented" any of the atrocities committed by the terrorists. What do they do? Go to a house and ask if anyone has been mistreated by the western troops and when the head of the household says "no but a group of terrorists thugs killed my brother and uncle" do they move on saying "Sorry, we're only documenting what the westerners do"? By all accounts their actions seem to imply that they're not interested when people are slaughtered wholesale unless they fight back or someone fights back for them. For that is the whole premise to their being. They're against war. And it ain't a war unless two sides are fighting. Have any of them read the quote at the top of this blog? "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil" ? Do they even comprehend that?

43 However, she said they were there to document detainee abuse and advocating for the human and civil rights of Iraqi civillians? Did they document Saddam's abuses and advocate for the human and civil rights of Iraqis ? Did they document the torture and killing in Falluja before the terrorists were cleared out in November last year? Have they documented ANY abuses perpetrated by the terrorists during this entire engagement? Are they calling for the "insurgents" to stop the beheadings? It's clear by this questions, Oyster, that you haven't actually looked at the CPT website or made yourself familiar with their work. I urge you to stop just writing them off as 'liberals' and look at what it is they do before you judge them. They are not only documenting what westerners do. As Rob has already pointed out, they reported things Saddam was doing as well. And they report on what the insurgent groups are doing. As I understand it, they were also documenting abuses and advocating for American and 'western' POWs. And yes, they have called on the insurgents to stop their beheadings. Pacifism is about deploring ALL violence, and that's what they do. As far as standing behind a booth that says "remember 9/11," Tom's very presence in Iraq is his way of remembering those who were killed on 9/11. That's what prompted him to go. He's doing the work he's doing because he wants to see an end to violence-- war, terror, and everything else.

44 I believe the CPT are nothing but a bunch of Useful Idiots who carry water for the enemys of the civilized world, and this kidnapping was a staged propaganda stunt and nothing more. My evidence? Sure thing. Why, if they know that their appeals to, and attacks upon, American military and political authorities will go unheeded, do they not instead appeal to their vast network of "friends" in the region? If they are so widely beloved, as their propaganda represents them, then why are their muslim friends not coming forward to help them? They are without a doubt enemies of America, and apologists for terrorists and dictators, though many of them may be too stupid to know it, but that doesn't mean they won't get sacrificed for the cause. There are three possible outcomes: American troops rescue them, in which case they would cry foul and claim the Americans were cruel and bloodthirsty; or they are released unharmed, from which event they could garner much pro-terrorist propaganda, contrasting their captors with say, Abu-Ghraib guards; or they get a really close shave before a live studio audience, which would also benefit the terrorists and the CPT for purposes of anti-America propaganda. In any event, America is the bad guy, and the terrorists are the good guys. Liberals all need to be killed.

45 I honestly couldn't care less about what use believers make of their worldview. When I saw the video I had the same reaction as I did seeing Buddhists practice self-immolation, namely, "Fools." A more "nuanced" perspective. That's strange seeing how I don't see an Adopt a Kurd or Adopt a Marsh Shi'a or Adopt an Israeli Orphan. I guess getting one side and getting it consistently makes one sufficiently "nuanced" for CPT meetings. Interesting I found abso-freaking-lutely nothing about CPT in Zimbabwe, the scene of the worst systematic violence in years. Hrm, I wonder why. I'm guessing it's either because 1) Mugabe isn't a U.S. stooge or 2) CPT is too poor to be consistent. Take your pick and I'll take mine, mmkay? Listen, I don't care one way or the other about CPT. They are of complete insignificance. What I do care about is an idiot like you trying to hold up the CPT team as an example of how to conduct business and use as a foil Schultz. A man who probably singlehandedly did more for Iraqis in a slow weekend than CPT did in 2 years. You're a fucking ingrate for that "exit strategy" post and no amount of proselytizing will change that. Are you under the misapprehension that reporters like Jane Araf or Christianne Amanpour or the ones from NPR, ABC, Sidney Herald, CBS, AP, Reuters, GlobeTV, Time, National Geographic, Rolling Stone, Al Jazeera, etc. were PR whores for the coalition much like your group is now a PR whore for the insurgents? Is that what you want me to believe? Sorry, I take nothing on faith and what you say strains credulity.

46 Stories on Iraq at CPT 19,700 hits Stories on Saddam at CPT 243 hits Stories on Zarqawi at CPT 3 hits Stories on Iraq + al-Qaeda at CPT 10 hits Stories on Iraq + Hostage at CPT 32 hits Please blow some more smoke up my ass.

47 Google hits for Torture+Bush at cpt: 29. Google hits for Torture+Saddam at cpt: 48.

48 shorter rob - CPT is a small organization with limited funds and limited human resources. Sadly, there are more conflict zones in the world today than there are CPT staff members or even reservists. Had they more financing and manpower available, you bet your ass they'd send a delegation to Zimbabwe (I've been there myself, actually, in the lead up to Mugabe's most recent 'election'). CPT does maintain delegations in Burundi and Eastern Congo. If you were correct in arguing that CPT is simply a group of stooges intent on undermining the US, then their reporting on Afghanistan would paint US as the villain, correct? Instead, the main page for their Afghani project reports the following: ---- start quote ---- "Afghans are hopeful and excited at the opportunity to make a fresh start," reports Pritchard. "They say that they have endured 23 years of war and devastation driven by outside forces, and now the world has seen the folly of feeding such terrorism." The devastation is extensive after the years of Soviet occupation, fighting by Afghan factions and their sponsors, takeover by the Taliban, and now the continuing bombing by the US supported by Canada and others. It will take billions of dollars and years of work to rebuild the infrastructure and civil society. Afghans are ready for the challenge but they are concerned about security. There are still heavily armed men walking the streets of the cities and maintaining "checkposts" along the highways. "This is our biggest problem," said the director of one Afghan aid organization. "These men have no education. They only know how to get food with a gun. We have to get rid of their weapons and find them jobs." ---- end quote ---- The pictures down the sidebar depict (1) a palace destroyed by warlords, (2) children at a newly opened school, (3) a family of Afghanis who are "optimistic and eager to rebuild their country," (4) a Red Cross facility bombed by the US, (5) some orchards destroyed by the Taliban, (6) some Afghani elders at a refugee camp. So, are the US mentioned? Yes, but almost tangentially. The focus is on the full 23 years of violence and the opportunity now, with the overthrow of the Taliban, for Afghani civilians to finally have some degree of control over their own destiny. Face it, Shorter Rob: You're the one with an agenda here, not CPT.

49 Annalee: God says sucide is a sin. Going to Iraq without proper protection is sucide. So much for bringing God into a stupid act on the part of a man.

50 The "christian left," give me a break. You could ask the same generalized question about any religious/political org.. "why has't the fundamentalist right wingers..." This is a matter of the media, they cover what they want too. "Reserve their efforts.. for the worthy," What Bullshit! What the heck is this guy talking about! Their "efforts" in a sense would be meaningless anyway because the USA does'nt negoitiate with terrorists. Dumass! You are ranting about how clerics, left, and christians(right wingers)being uncaring, without a basic understanding of how the US of A does business. Who wrote this stupid commentary anyway. Of course we feel bad about the hostages. What can you do asshole.. nothing.. so shut the FUCK UP.

1 How many insurgents did you spot desecrating the bodies of civilian contractors that were strung up on the Fallujah bridge? http://extremecatholic.blogspot.com/images/fallujah-bridge.jpg (thanks google images) Kind of hard to spot insurgent from civilians when they do not wear a uniform, it is even worse when they ambush contractors (like the person reportedly executed yesterday) in civilian or police clothing. When they convict someone of indiscriminate murder of Iraqi citizens I'll pay attention, rather than jump every time a media shitbird sqawks.

2 Seen the video - can't make any heads out of it. Understand that there is a British & corporate investigation going on but haven't heard much. All I can tell at this point is someone videotaped some drive-by shootings - I have absolutely no idea who was doing the shooting or even if it is random. The sound quality has clearly deliberately been distorted to prevent ID. It showed up on the Internet and on a server of a British Security Co. Keep in mind this is all orignating from Britain - and some real lulu hoaxes and con jobs have come out of there in the past several years.

3 dave - Don't accept the video at face value yet - let alone attempt some lateral rationalization. That's the reaction the left wants - don't give it to them - wait.

4 >>>Of course, the context the MSM doesn't report on is that these vehicles have enormous signs on them warning other vehicles to stay back or they will be fired on. Rusty, I saw the video and it's fucked up beyond words. This is obviously a case of sick yahoos on a shooting spree. So who gives a crap about any "sign" on the vehicle. And how exactly do you know it has any sign?

5 WAit til these mercenaries come home to roost like the mujahadeen did on 911. you think these hired killers are for liberty? wake up america. ben

6 lil' ernie! Not one spelling mistake! I am impressed!

7 Agent Brown declares that Doobyie Bush doesn't like Army people.

1 The term "vermin" should be used more often to describe the bastards.

2 Muslim dogs.

3 Fuken rugheads!!

4 Mulsim are shitHead they should get there head cut off and see how that feels! I would cut there head off in the front. Men are sooo mean they don't treat them human at all!Treat them like chickens and cut there heads off. Where is God when you need him the most and see who is right and wrong here.Mulsim don't believe any- thing there is no God to them!

1 I know this might sound a bit......bad but, I don't think all this is on the up and up here. Smells fishy.

2 We are all suffering from the same fate, and that is the occupation of the American troops and the British troops which have brought me to this condition funny, I could of swore that he jumped aboard a plane, with his bible and fellow peaceniks to Iraq, who knew that America, and British troops got him into that condition?

3 How do you interpret all of this? Your insight would be appreciated.

4 Great job, CPTers! Now look at you. Morons.

5 This stinks to high heaven. I believe this is a conspiracy and that the "hostages" are actually the masterminds, and that the whole purpose of this exercise is to get prisoners released, score a propaganda victory, and possibly raise lots of money for the terrorists and their liberal dhimmis.

6 Don't be stupid. These guys are not faking their kidnapping. There lives are on the line. They may be stupid hippies but they are not faking their kidnapping and they don't deserve this. And once and for all, Guiliana Segrena did not fake her kidnapping. When they are beheaded then maybe you will believe me.

7 I've got to disagree here...the orange jumpsuits are not a good sign. I think death is on the cards. These peaceniks will learn the hard way. Anyone taking bets?

8 Okay George, calm down. They may not be colluding with the terrorists, though I still think they are, but even so, they're still useful dhimmi idiots, and either way, if they get gacked, I'm not gonna lose sleep over it.

9 One thing i'll grant these insurgent scum, they are creative with their names, Swords or righteous.. Martyrdom brigades etc I wonder if any of their supporters have ever wondered why is it that these thugs claiming to be for truth and justice are always masked while making their cowardly threats on camera. Why is it that these brave heroes of resistance have to tie up hostages and then hold a knife to their throats.

10 I think the American and British hostages will be fortunate to get out of Iraq alive. The others I am not so sure about. They knew the risks associated with going to Iraq and attempting to do what they were doing. In my opinion, it was stupid of them, but they still do not deserved to be murdered because of their stupidity.

11 The orange jumpsuits are a bad sign. I've updated the post to reflect that.

12 George, they're morons and we like to make fun of them, but obviously they don't deserve a hideous death by decapitation. (feathering and tarring them would have done just fine). You'll find that if worse comes to worse the mood around here will be somewhat dampened and even sedate. Nobody will be laughing then.

13 I believe this is a setup to make "you know who" look like the bad guys. Shouldn't be much longer until they are released with a long list of demands and telling the world how nice their captors were. Could be wrong. Time will tell.

14 the timestamp in bottom right says 5 12 2005?

15 That would be 12/05/2005 to us. Most of the world puts day first, then month. Then again, that's assuming that the terrorists know how to program their camcorders...............

16 Rusty i meant the video is 5th so that must be a bad sign it 7th here so guessing they have done all the videos already which would mean their fate already sealed?

17 Very good point. But is that a bad sign or a good sign?

18 bad, how can they extend deadline 48hours from 5th that would make it 7th, bad sign

19 I know but still, just the thought of them losing their heads makes me sick. The canadians may be spared since there are no Canadian troops in Iraq(As far as I know). The American and the Briton will probably die unless they are rescued.

20 The announcement of the deadline extension came seperate from the video.

21 Looks more and more like willing "hostages". Sorry, but I won't shed a tear for them if they are killed: o They went to Iraq to interfere with the operations of allied forces, including Iraqi police. o They're associated with a group that also runs interference for terrorists in Israel. o Like Rusty said, they're saying what they believe. o Like Szgrena, they're hanging out with the people they agree with. o Any rescue attempt will put the lives of allied forces in jeopardy, solely so these creeps could get their 15 minutes. Their deaths will be as tragic as the deaths of any other collaborators.

22 I don't doubt for one minute they are willing participants in this little charade, but that doesn't mean they still may not lose their heads. Buy the ticket, take the ride.

23 George, if the Canadians should be spared for not having troops, why kidnap these people at all? After all, they were doing the terrorists' work for them, spreading anti-US propaganda. But I'm at least halfway in the camp that thinks this may be a setup; too many similarities to the Sgrena setup...er...incident. Why blindfolds all of a sudden?

24 I don't know what to think about this. It's obvious they don't mind saying what they are saying because they are already against the war and are probably used to deriding Blair and Bush all the time. They actually could be in a lot of trouble, and of course, our boys are probably looking for them, but with the wolf they've been crying even before this, it's hard to know if they are telling the truth or not. If they're not, I might go kidnap them myself! (kidding)

25 I've been away for a while. Sorry for not commenting previously. I spoke today with a friend of Norman Kember's who has verified that the statement he delivered is in his typical idiom and is in keeping with statements he has made consistently over the past number of years. In other words, his statement and that of Mr. Fox were likely given willingly and without significant prompting or duress on the part of the kidnappers. That said, their treatment does appear to have worsened and the appearance of chains, blindfolds, and orange jumpsuits does not bode well. As an organization, CPT has generally taken the stance that the American occupation of Iraq is a dangerously destabilizing force within the region and is one of the 'root sources' of the current violence. That's not to say that an American pullout would result in some sort of immediate and magical harmony but rather that the people of Iraq already have the means of resolving their own disputes and will be able to do so more peacefully and effectively without the duress and violence inherent in foreign occupation. They will still require the support of the international community to do so but a contingent of bobby officers under Iraqi supervision and invitation will go further than an equivalent contingent of uninvited marines. As for these hostages, the 48-hour extension to the deadline is a very good sign and is hopefully indicative of a softening of the kidnappers' previously hardline stance. Most importantly, it seems to indicate a desire, however tentative, for some form of dialog. Their reference to "the statements of the British Foreign Minister" is a reassuring confirmation that they are hearing some of the press and media reports and are presumably aware of the widespread calls for the hostages' release. By its nature, hostage-taking is an act of brinksmanship and statements released by either side often involve a significant amount of posturing. The lives of these four men, especially the American & Briton, are still very much at risk but there does appear to be some reason to hold out hope for their safe release. My own personal suspicion is that the hostage-takers are considering the release of the Canadian hostages but will continue to hold the American and Briton as bargaining chips. If that is the case, I suspect they will start with the release of Mr. Sooden on Saturday or shortly thereafter. Given the reputation of Mr. Loney, I wouldn't put it past him to resist an offered release until such time that Mr. Fox and Mr. Kember are also freed. All of that is simply supposition on my part, however, and I suspect this story will take a few more unexpected turns before we hear the end of it. Hopefully those turns will be for the better rather than for the worse.

26 It sounds from Rob's description that Kember is some dewey-eyed idealist who thinks that only if it weren't for us mean ol' Men and our diry ol' guns the world would be a decent place for butterflies and fairies. And I don't mean that in a demeaning way, but to illustrate that liberals are simply incapable of understanding how the people who live on the rough side of the tracks do business. Kember has willingly walked into the lion's den, knowing full well the inevitable consequences of his actions, and accepting them fully, and so I will not lose one wink of sleep over him, because as Hunter S. Thompson said; you but the ticket, you take the ride.

27 Now wait a minute ... these guys said they didn't want anyone to do anything to save them from their fate. Now they ask that we do something to affect their release. Which is it? Do they want help, or not? Because it looks to me now like they're not so ready to "die by the thousands".

28 Hi, You will have to excuse me because I am not very knowledgeable about these things. What I am wonderig is, why do you suppose that the pleas from radicals and respected Muslims for the CPTers' release have seemed to have fallen on deaf ears? True, the kidnappers have extended the deadline, but they must know that their demands are unreasonable and will never be met. What do you suspect their real motive is and why do you think they haven't listened to revered Muslims? I do not believe that this is a set-up, so please tell me thoughts that you have about all of this that do not include the set-up theory... Do you think that they may be just trying to save face now? Thanks a lot.

29 Oyster and Improb, don't be ridiculous. You've heard my explanation enough times by now that you're obviously trolling. As an organization, CPT has realistic and reasonable objectives within Iraq and a clearly defined methodology for achieving them. That's more than can be said about the US military in this particular conflict. As for CPT declining all assistance in attaining their team members' release, that's also ridiculous. Through their humanitarian work over the past decade, CPT has built a broad web of relationships within the Muslim and international communities, winning the respect of enemies as well as friends. It is on the basis of those relationships and that respect that such an unprecedented range of groups and individuals are now calling for their release. CPT has welcomed and encouraged these statements. What CPT has not welcomed is any attempt to rescue them through violence or ransom. To be frank, these calls from within the Muslim world for a peaceful resolution are precisely what has resulted in this two-day extension. The US military doesn't even have a clue where the kidnappers are hiding out and I can assure you there's nothing they've done to win this 2-day reprieve and nothing they can do to ensure these four men's safe release. Jill, I'm very confident that this is not a setup on CPT's part. It's just not the way they operate. I also don't believe the calls for reprieve from within the Muslim community have fallen on deaf ears. If anything, it is precisely these calls that have stayed the kidnappers' hands and will hopefully still earn the CPT members' release. As I mentioned previously, these situations typically involve a lot of bravado and posturing. This group is being very careful not to show signs of weakness. I believe what they're looking for now is a way out of this predicament where they do not lose face and its up to the rest of the world to allow that. According to classic conflict resolution theory, the key lies in shifting the debate to the point where a mutually acceptable solution can be found. Once that's been achieved, then these four men can walk free.

30 Okay George, calm down. They may not be colluding with the terrorists, though I still think they are, but even so, they're still useful dhimmi idiots, and either way, if they get gacked, I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. That statement speaks volumes when it comes to defining the typical NeoConservative Christian. These hostages are Christian also. They have a conviction that this war is bad based on their faith and what they read in the Bible, and they chose to try and do something about it, instead of sitting in front of a computer monitor passing judgment on those they disagree with. I am glad that you are able to sleep at night -- it just shows you have no conscience.

31 Political Penguin, shooting for gravitas, but instead landing on ridiculous, responded to this that I wrote: "Okay George, calm down. They may not be colluding with the terrorists, though I still think they are, but even so, they're still useful dhimmi idiots, and either way, if they get gacked, I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. Wherein he said: "That statement speaks volumes when it comes to defining the typical NeoConservative Christian." Yeah that's great, except that I'm not NeoConservative (whatever the hell that means; the people over at Stormfront accused me of being one, as well as a Jew, I guess the terms are synonymous), and I haven't been a Christian of any flavor in years, but rather I'm a pretty hardcore atheist (orthodox), and don't care one damn for the mixing of church and state. Sorry ol' Penguie, but you choked on that one. "These hostages are Christian also. They have a conviction that this war is bad based on their faith and what they read in the Bible, and they chose to try and do something about it, instead of sitting in front of a computer monitor passing judgment on those they disagree with." Yet I'm in no danger of getting my head chopped off, since it was they, and not I, who walked into this mess, fully knowing the consequences of their actions. Tough break, but oh well, they're all big boys, and should know better. "I am glad that you are able to sleep at night -- it just shows you have no conscience." Oh I have a conscience, I just don't waste it on idiots, murderers, or those who support or enable them. Your comments betray you as nothing more than a simpering, whining, snivelling, bedwetting punkass liberal, and you should just STFU and leave the important stuff to the responsible adults. Buh-bye now.

32 hey penguin, screw them http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/4/1/144156/3224/16#16 and fuck you. you are not entitled to judge anyone on the right.

33 Rob wrote: "As an organization, CPT has realistic and reasonable objectives within Iraq..." Yeah, it's called America loses. "...and a clearly defined methodology for achieving them." That part's called giving aid and comfort to the enemy". "That's more than can be said about the US military in this particular conflict." You goddamn stupid liberal fuck, you don't fucking deserve to breathe the same air as our soldiers. Our military has liberated those people from the most murderous tyrant of the last fifty years, with more than 2000 making the ultimate sacrifice, and thousands more maimed for life, yet you want only for the terrorists to win, so fuck you and I hope you die soon and in great pain you goddamn fucking liberal traitor piece of shit moron. "As for CPT declining all assistance in attaining their team members' release, that's also ridiculous." No, what was rediculous was their being there in the first place. "Through their humanitarian work over the past decade, CPT has built a broad web of relationships within the Muslim and international communities, winning the respect of enemies as well as friends." And when your friends are the enemies of your country, You become a traitor, and you lose all credibility with your countrymen, though you may gain some with your enemies, though not necessarily enough to prevent them from killing you anyway. Oops on them! "It is on the basis of those relationships and that respect that such an unprecedented range of groups and individuals are now calling for their release." Yeah they've got some relationships all right, they're good dhimmis, and valuable for terrorist propaganda purposes, so even CAIR is calling for their release, a new thing. "CPT has welcomed and encouraged these statements. What CPT has not welcomed is any attempt to rescue them through violence or ransom." Good then, so you'll agree that I'm right in not losing sleep over them? They knew what they were getting into, so why mess up their plans? It's obvious they have a martyr complex, so I say give 'em what they want. Good and hard. "To be frank, these calls from within the Muslim world for a peaceful resolution are precisely what has resulted in this two-day extension." Lots of calls eh? Funny, we're not hearing much about them. Maybe you're confusing disinterested silence with concern. "The US military doesn't even have a clue where the kidnappers are hiding out and I can assure you there's nothing they've done to win this 2-day reprieve and nothing they can do to ensure these four men's safe release." Frankly, they shouldn't care that much, because they've got schools and hospitals to guard from your "freedom fighters". Besides, they don't want our help, right? "Jill, I'm very confident that this is not a setup on CPT's part." Did you get that news from the antenna on your tinfoil hat? "It's just not the way they operate." Heh. It is now. It seems they weren't fully apprised of the plans by their news friends, or maybe they were, either way, not really our concern what happens to them, especially since they don't want us to help them. "I also don't believe the calls for reprieve from within the Muslim community have fallen on deaf ears." Not deaf, just indifferent. "If anything, it is precisely these calls that have stayed the kidnappers' hands and will hopefully still earn the CPT members' release." Or they realize their bluff has been called, perhaps? "As I mentioned previously, these situations typically involve a lot of bravado and posturing." Which appeals to small-minded terrorist lovers to no end. "This group is being very careful not to show signs of weakness. I believe what they're looking for now is a way out of this predicament where they do not lose face and its up to the rest of the world to allow that." So we should give them what they want to keep them from being embarrassed? Riiiiiiight. "According to classic conflict resolution theory, the key lies in shifting the debate to the point where a mutually acceptable solution can be found." Yeah that'll work with people who chop off heads and send car bombs into elementary schools. Idiot. How about an older classic conflict resolution theory? Yeah, this one states that you find the sons of bitches and kill them and everyone who is associated with them. See, that route works better with savages like islamofascists, who only understand crushing force, and see anything else as weakness. "Once that's been achieved, then these four men can walk free." With high-fives all around for a successfully executed propaganda operation.

34 Hi, I have never felt so much hate oozing from someone's writing in my life. I think that this blog is, for the most part, really informative and intelligent, talking about real issues. Why can't we stick to objective, intellectual discussion without damning everyone who shares different opinions? Such black and white thinking contributes to blindness and hate and benefits no one.

35 Oh I have a conscience, I just don't waste it on idiots, murderers, or those who support or enable them. So, since our very presence over there is "enabling" the insurgency, you don't waste too much time thinking about it? I said your response was typical of the NeoConservative "Christian" -- I never actually accused you of being Christian. The description is an oxymoron. Besides, you don't have to be coy, you know exactly what the "New Conservatism" is all about, and it has very little to do with true Conservatism. screw them http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/4/1/144156/3224/16#16 and fuck you. you are not entitled to judge anyone on the right. Entitled? I can judge whomever I please. I see you have no problem judging people. The difference is, I don't celebrate or wish for the death of those I disagree with. I have never felt so much hate oozing from someone's writing in my life. I think that this blog is, for the most part, really informative and intelligent, talking about real issues. Why can't we stick to objective, intellectual discussion without damning everyone who shares different opinions? Such black and white thinking contributes to blindness and hate and benefits no one. Ah, finally, a sane voice.

36 Jill...the hate stems from reality. I was once a very tolerant person, alas tolerance gets nowhere with certain people. Hard action will change the world. Try interacting with a few muslims or observe them amongst our societies and you will soon start to hate them. If people had stopped Hitler earlier many more lives would have been saved. The muslims are just as much (if not more) a threat to western values. Direct action is needed.

37 Hi Jester, You say "Try interacting with a few Muslims or observe them amongst our society and you will soon start to hate them" - That is exactly the same type of black and white thinking I was referring to in the previous post. I have met some Muslims and the ones that I met are beautiful people. And then you proceed to say "If people had stopped Hitler earlier many more lives would have been saved" Of course, I agee with you. But don't you see that your thinking advocates the same hatred toward the Muslims in our society like he did toward the Jews? (I am not saying that you are like Hitler, don't get me wrong, I am just pointing out that your thinking seems similar and please correct me if I am mistaken). I don't think that mass labelling has ever solved problems or contributed to humanity as a whole. Why do we always try to make ourselves separate from each other? I am not saying that we shouldn't protect our values (freedom, etc.), though I am starting to wonder if some vices (hate, stereotyping, self-righteousness)have become an overriding mantra that is destroying us from the inside. I am only trying to create dialogue, and to understand where people are coming from...I am not writing to insult anyone, I just want to understand.

38 Try interacting with a few muslims or observe them amongst our societies and you will soon start to hate them. I live in a community with a mosque, AND a synagogue right down the street. Around the corner from that, there is a Catholic church. I am surrounded by people of many different faiths and nationalities and we all get along quite well. Your hate stems from feeling insecure with yourself, not from what another person believes or acts. Hate is irrational fear.

39 There are two possibilities. First, this is a setup to try and extort ransomn money for the terrorists. These peace-niks are there trying to help fund these scum bags. If this is true a demand for money will be coming. Second, this is on the up and up and these peace-niks will have their heads chopped off. This is a very acceptible end for me. As long as we don't give them any money its a win, win situation.

40 Jester, I used to know tons of muslims in college and they were excellent friends to me. Every single muslim I've ever met I liked. I do have one story that in hindsight is a bit troubling though. The muslims I knew were all elite rich types back home in Pakistan, palestine and the Gulf states. Generally, they were religiously devout, but of the "moderate" variety if you get my meaning. They partied like the rest of us, smoked cigarettes, and a bit of weed too, but no alcohol because that is forbidden in the Koran. Swell guys all of them. Then Salman Rushdie wrote his book and the ayatollahs sentenced him to death. As a good freedom of speech type of Liberal I was back then, I was outraged. But when all of my muslim buddies came out in favor of the fatwa, I was shocked. I couldn't believe the things these so-called moderates were saying about Rushdie and how he deserved death for disrespecting the prophet. What a transformation. I argued with them to no avail. It was as if someone had thrown water on a mogwai and they turned into gremlins. I was naive back then, and now I understand that even moderate muslims don't think like us. That doesn't mean they're unpleasant evil people. And it doesn't mean we can't coexist. But it has to be under our rules, not theirs. They don't think like us. Get that into your thick skulls, you naive Libs.

41 Hi Improb, Uh... It looks like I touched a nerve. Sorry for getting you all riled up but please don't expect me to react in kind. As for an American withdrawal being perceived as a 'loss' situation, it once again comes down to shifting the parameters of the debate. The US, like the kidnappers of these four men, is engaged in a very serious game of brinksmanship and bravado. The solution is to find an exit strategy that is acceptable to all sides and does not cause anyone, the US included, to lose face. I don't know what that exit strategy is but you bet your ass I'm looking for it. As for me not deserving to breathe the same air as the US soldiers in Iraq, let me state once and for all that, despite being a pacifist, I am firmly in support of the individual US soldiers. They've been lied to, asked to perform unspeakable acts, and put in harm's way in an ill-conceived and provocative war that is distracting the world from the very real threat of terrorism. 2,000 American soldiers and an untold number of Iraqi civilians and combatants are dead and for what? To exact vengeance for a horrible act of terrorism in which Iraq played no part? To find weapons of mass destruction that were never there? To depose a violent dictator that America itself trained, supplied, and brought to power in the first place? To enable, empower, justify, and breed the very terrorist forces that we should be over in Afghanistan fighting? To further line the pockets of the already rich and powerful? To impose a new puppet government that isn't as interested in tugging at the strings? Don't bother calling me a traitor or an enemy of truth, justice, and the American Way because that's the last thing I'll ever be. And don't blame me if you haven't been hearing the widespread calls for these hostages release. Sorry, but unless you have four CPT workers handcuffed in your basement, you're simply not the target audience. The fact remains that the parameters of the debate are shifting and there are people actively working to secure the release of these men in a peaceful manner while you jack off in vitriol and vinegar in front of your monitor. Thanks, I gotcha. Move on. As for me calling the kidnappers or even Iraqi insurgents in general "freedom fighters," would you care to provide a quote? Sorry, there aren't any. I've been very consistent in saying that the violence on both sides has been detestable and counterproductive. I don't believe in freedom fighters. I believe in peace builders. I believe in non-violence. I believe in the integrity of innocent civilians who suffer at the wrong end of a soldier's gun or a terrorist's plane or an occupier's checkpoint or a suicide bomber's detonation. So quote me on that rather than putting lies in my mouth and claiming their mine. As for the antennae on my tinfoil hat, maybe I should get one. Tell me, does it block out the hate? While I've never been a member of CPT, I've following their actions since 1993 and know a number of people who have worked with CPT both on the front lines and at the executive level. I also take the time to Google their website and inform myself about the debates at hand. While I don't speak as a representative of CPT I consider myself a uniquely informed citizen within the context of the audience here at Jawa. When I have reason to be confident of my statements, I say so. When I'm talking out of my ass, I'll let you know. Please return the favor. You state that violence is the only language that 'islamofascists' understand. Sadly, it appears to be the only language you understand as well. If I ascribed to your philosophy, I'd already have a bullet with your name on it. Luckily for the both of us, I believe in alternate solutions. As for your use and misuse of the term 'islamofascist,' I find it deeply insulting and so broadly applied in your posts that it's clear you wouldn't even recognize one if they were on your Christmas card mailing list. You appear to use the term to refer to the Islamic community at large, let alone anyone who simply happens to disagree with your point of view. Look: Hitler was a Christian, Stalin was an atheist, Bin Laden is a Muslim. Each of them were also exceptions and only a fool would construe the individual as somehow being indicative of the whole. The real enemies are extremism and hate and those two sad realities exist as subsets within all cultures, all religions, all philosphies, all nationalities. They exist on the homefront and they exist overseas. They hide in caves and they dress in suits. Sometimes they exist as pariahs and outcasts, sometimes we vote them into office. The darned thing is, in times like these, they also breed like bloody rabbits. Improbolus, you're a rabbit. Enjoy the view.

42 >>>"Look: Hitler was a Christian, Hitler was not a christian, you fucking moron. I'm so tired of disproving this Liberal meme over and over again. It's starting to get tiresome.

43 JC...the reaction to the Salman Rushdie thing is the sort of thing I refer to. I have never been attacked personally by a muslim nor attacked them physically, however many around where I live said 9/11 was the US getting what it deserved. They had been pretty silent until then but something like this often makes you realise whose side they are on when things turn bad. The thing is about trust and fear and I do fear what these people are capable of as it threatens all that I love about life. I love western ideals and freedom and hate the oppressiveness of islam.

44 On the "Hitler was a Christian" debate, this one's for you, Carlos. Note that I'm not making the ridiculous corresponding argument that, if Hitler was a Christian, Christianity must therefore be evil. Nor am I even claiming the Hitler actually believed in Christianity in one way or another. What I'm arguing is that he used a warped version of Christianity to frame and justify his atrocities. And for the record, I'm a practicing Christian as well. I come from a Mennonite theological background and we've got our own skeletons in the closet - run a Google search for +Anabaptist +Munster if you ever feel like poking us in a sore spot. ------------Here goes nothing... “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” ( Adolf Hitler, from John Toland [Pulitzer Prize winner], Adolf Hitler, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p. 507. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 562. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 65. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago — a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people. “Then indeed when Rome collapsed there were endless streams of new German bands flowing into the Empire from the North; but, if Germany collapses today, who is there to come after us? German blood upon this earth is on the way to gradual exhaustion unless we pull ourselves together and make ourselves free! “And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Munich, April 12, 1922; from Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler: April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1, New York: Oxford University Press, 1942, pp. 19-20. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: ‘Lord, make us free!’ is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: ‘Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!’” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, pp. 632-633. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “I may not be a light of the church, a pulpiteer, but deep down I am a pious man, and believe that whoever fights bravely in defense of the natural laws framed by God and never capitulates will never be deserted by the Lawgiver, but will, in the end, receive the blessings of Providence.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on July 5, 1944; from Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1989, p. 208. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “I say: my Christian feeling tells me that my lord and savior is a warrior. It calls my attention to the man who, lonely and surrounded by only a few supporters, recognized what they [the Jews] were, and called for a battle against them, and who, by God, was not the greatest sufferer, but the greatest warrior. . . “As a human being it is my duty to see to it that humanity will not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did that old civilization two thousand years ago, a civilization which was driven to its ruin by the Jews. . . I am convinced that I am really a devil and not a Christian if I do not feel compassion and do not wage war, as Christ did two thousand years ago, against those who are steeling and exploiting these poverty-stricken people. “Two thousand years ago a man was similarly denounced by this particular race which today denounces and blasphememes all over the place. . . That man was dragged before a court and they said: he is arousing the people! So he, too, was an agitator!” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on April 12, 1922; from Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1989, pp. 261-262. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “And now Staatspräsident Bolz says that Christianity and the Catholic faith are threatened by us. And to that charge I can answer: In the first place it is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity. If many wish today to take threatened Christianity under their protection, where, I would ask, was Christianity for them in these fourteen years when they went arm in arm with atheism? No, never and at no time was greater internal damage done to Christianity than in these fourteen years when a party, theoretically Christian, sat with those who denied God in one and the same Government.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Stuttgart, February 15, 1933. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 383. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “We have experienced a miracle, something unique, something the like of which there has hardly been in the history of the world. God first allowed our people to be victorious for four and a half years, then He abased us, laid upon us a period of shamelessness, but now after a struggle of fourteen years he has permitted us to bring that period to a close. It is a miracle which has been wrought upon the German people. […] It shows us that the Almighty has not deserted our people, that He received it into favour at the moment when it rediscovered itself. And that our people shall never again lose itself, that must be our vow so long as we shall live and so long as the Lord gives us the strength to carry on the fight.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech to the 'Old Guard' of the Party at Munich, March 19, 1934. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “The anti-Semitism of the new [Christian Social] movement was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 119. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the ‘remaking’ of the Reich as they call it.” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 375. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time. A fight for freedom had begun mightier than the earth had ever seen; for once Destiny had begun its course, the conviction dawned on even the broad masses that this time not the fate of Serbia or Austria was involved, but whether the German nation was to be or not to be.” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 161. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “As far as this variety of ‘folkish’ warriors, are concerned, I can only wish the National Socialist movement and the German people with all my heart: ‘Lord, preserve us from such friends, and then we can easily deal with our enemies.’” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 565. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 436. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe.” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 214. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “Imbued with the desire to secure for the German people the great religious, moral, and cultural values rooted in the two Christian Confessions, we have abolished the political organizations but strengthened the religious institutions.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Reichstag, Berlin, January 30, 1934. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “The advantages of a personal and political nature that might arise from compromising with atheistic organizations would not outweigh the consequences which would become apparent in the destruction of general moral basic values. The national government regards the two Christian confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality: their rights are not to be infringed.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Reichstag, Berlin, March 23, 1933; published in his My New Order ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.” ( Adolf Hitler, in 26 April 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “he world has no reason for fighting in our defense, and as a matter of principle God does not make cowardly nations free…” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 622. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief.” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 152. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “While we destroyed the Centre Party, we have not only brought thousands of priests back into the Church, but to millions of respectable people we have restored their faith in their religion and in their priests. The union of the Evangelical Church in a single Church for the whole Reich, the Concordat with the Catholic Church, these are but milestones on the road which leads to the establishment of a useful relation and a useful co operation between the Reich and the two Confessions.” ( Adolf Hitler, in his New Year Message, January 1, 1934. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “National Socialism has always affirmed that it is determined to take the Christian Churches under the protection of the State. For their part the churches cannot for a second doubt that they need the protection of the State, and that only through the State can they be enabled to fulfill their religious mission. Indeed, the churches demand this protection from the State.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a Radio Broadcast July 22, 1933; from My New Order. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “I know that here and there the objection has been raised: Yes, but you have deserted Christianity. No, it is not that we have deserted Christianity; it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity. We have only carried through a clear division between politics, which have to do with terrestrial things, and religion, which must concern itself with the celestial sphere. There has been no interference with the doctrine of the Confessions or with their religious freedom, nor will there be any such interference. On the contrary the State protects religion, though always on the one condition that religion will not be used as a cover for political ends. “There may have been a time when even parties founded on the ecclesiastical basis were a necessity. At that time Liberalism was opposed to the Church, while Marxism was anti-religious. But that time is past. National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary, it stands on the ground of a real Christianity. “The Church's interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against the Bolshevist culture, against an atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for the consciousness of a community in our national life, for the conquest of hatred and disunion between the classes, for the conquest of civil war and unrest, of strife and discord. These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Koblenz, August 26, 1934. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “It would be more in keeping with the intention of the noblest man in this world if our two Christian churches, instead of annoying Negroes with missions which they neither desire nor understand, would kindly, but in all seriousness, teach our European humanity that where parents are not healthy it is a deed pleasing to God to take pity on a poor little healthy orphan child and give him father and mother, than themselves to give birth to a sick child who will only bring unhappiness and suffering on himself and the rest of the world.” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 403. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lords work.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Reichstag, Berlin, 1936. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “At the head of our [National Socialist] program there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will—not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Nuremberg, September 6, 1938. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “May God Almighty give our work His blessing, strengthen our purpose, and endow us with wisdom and the trust of our people, for we are fighting not for ourselves but for Germany.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Berlin, February 1, 1933. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “The judgment whether a people is virtuous or not virtuous can hardly be passed by a human being. That should be left to God.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Wilhelmshaven, April 1, 1939. )

45 Rob, Hitler DESPISED Christianity and Christians. He wasn't, however, above using Christian lingo to further his purposes. So, to quote Hitler means nothing. He, both publicly and privately, ridiculed Christianity as effete. When Hitler says he is a 'Christian', he does not mean, "I believe that Jesus is the Messiah", he means, "I am an Aryan."

46 Rob, Trust me, I have traded quotes back and forth in this stupid argument about Hitler for years. I'm not impressed. Furthermore, I can think of few things more repulsive on this planet than someone claiming to be a "christian", as you claim to be, trying to prove Hitler was also a christian, and going to such lengths to do so. What is it with you sick fucks on the Left??? Seriously, WTF??? Why is self-loathing and guilt so built into your sick Lefty ideology??? Regarding Hitler claiming to be a "christian", this is what he meant: "The Nazi party stands on the basis of Positive Christianity, and Positive Christianity is NationalSocial ism...NationalSocial ism is the doing of God's will...God's will reveals itself in German blood...Dr. Zoellner and Count Galen [the Catholic bishop of Muenster] have tried to make it clear to me that Christianity consists of faith in Christ as the Son of God. That makes me laugh...No, Christianity is not dependent upon the Apostle's Creed...True Christianity is represented by the party, and the German people are now called by the party and especially by the Fuehrer to a real Christianity...The Fuehrer is the herald of a new revelation." ~~Dr. Hans Kerrl, Minister of Church Affairs, February 13, 1937 I've got dozens of these dude. Hitler's words have been twisted by the Left for decades, and so has the history of the Vatican. And you stupid Libidiot christians play along like self-loathing sheep to the slaughter. Just get away from my sight, you repulse me.

47 "Our National Socialist ideology is far loftier than the concepts of Christianity, which in their essential points have been taken over from Jewry * * *. A differentiation between the various Christian confessions is not to be made here * * * the Evangelical Church is just as inimical to us as the Catholic Church. * * * All influences which might impair or damage the leadership of the people exercised by the Fuehrer with the help of the NSDAP must be eliminated. More and more the people must be separated from the churches and their organs the pastors. * * * Just as the deleterious influences of astrologers, seers and other fakers are eliminated and suppressed by the State, so must the possibility of church influence also be totally removed. * * * Not until this has happened, does the state leadership have influence on the individual citizens. Not until then are the people and Reich secure in their existence for all time." ~~Martin Bormann in a secret decree of the Party Chancellery signed by him and distributed to all Gauleiters 7 June 1941

48 "The Fuehrer considers his efforts to bring the Evangelical Church to reason, unsuccessful and the Evangelical Church with respect to its condition rightfully a useless pile of sects. As you emphasize the Party has previously carried on not only a fight against the political element of the Christianity of the Church, but also a fight against membership of Party Members in a Christian confession." ~~Hans Kerrl, Reich Minister for Church Affairs, in a letter dated 6 September 1939

49 Rob, this is all news to you obviously, but The Vatican's dissavowal of Hitler in 1937 came in the form of The encyclical Mit brennender Sorge ("With burning anxiety") which was one of the strongest condemnations of a national regime that the Holy See had ever published. In fact, the Vatican took pains to ensure that Nazi officials could not prohibit its distribution. Unlike most encyclicals, which are written in Latin, Mit brennender Sorge was written in German. It was then smuggled into Germany, secretly distributed, and read at the Masses on Palm Sunday, March 14,1937. Mit brennender Sorge condemned not only the persecution of the Church in Germany but also the neopaganism of Nazi theories, the idolizing of the state, and the use of race and bloodlines to judge human value. It declared in part: "Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds. None but superficial minds could stumble into concepts of a national God, of a national religion; or attempt to lock within the frontiers of a single people, within the narrow limits of a single race, God, the Creator of the universe, King and Legislator of all nations before whose immensity they are "as a drop of a bucket" (Isaiah 11:15). The encyclical concluded that "enemies of the Church who think that their time has come will see that their joy was premature." The Nazis confiscated all available copies of the encyclical, arrested printers who made copies, and seized -their presses. Those distributing the encyclical were arrested, payments due to the, Church from Germany under the concordat were reduced, and several priests were subjected to trials on trumped-up currency or momfity charges. Shortly thereafter, Hitler was quoted in a Swiss newspaper as saying, "The Third Reich does not desire a modus vivendi with the Catholic Church, but rather its destruction with lies and dishonor, in order to make room for a German Church in which the German race will be glorified.' Pope Pius M was henceforth considered an enemy by the Nazis.

50 and finally, Rob, if you are trying to prove Hitler was a christian, then you're no more christian than he was you Leftwing fraud. You're an effing communist. Fuck off.

51 Meh, I knew I shouldn't have stirred up that hornet's nest. Please read my preface where I clearly state my argument which is simply as follows: Hitler used Christianity to justify his atrocities just like Stalin used atheism to justify his and Bin Laden uses Islam to justify his. Is Hitler representative of Christianity? Absolutely not! Is Stalin representative of atheism? Absolutely not! Is Bin Laden representative of Islam? Absolutely not! I raise the issue only because there are posters within this thread, one little white rabbit in particular, who are throwing around blanket terms like 'islamofascist' and arguing that Islamism is somehow directly equivalent to terrorism and to anti-Americanism and to hate. This is patently and dangerously untrue. Like Christianity, atheism, and countless other faiths and philosophies, Islam is a stump with many branches. Some of those branches lean to the left and others to the right. Some are moderate and some are extremist. Some believe in violence and some believe in pacifism. If the branch offends you, cut it off (as the Pope thankfully did to Hitler and the leaders of Jordan and Saudi Arabia are now working towards with Bin Laden). But don't be a fool and burn the tree because the tree is still worth keeping. For myself, I may work to sever the branch that is President Bush but I refuse to give up on America as an ideal and I refuse to give up on the individual citizens and soldiers who call it home. Hell, I haven't even given up on the GOP for crying out loud. Rusty, I apologize for dragging this thread woefully off-topic. Broaching the topic of Hitler is always inflammatory (as it should be) and I should have known better than to even go down that garden path. Suffice to say that we can all agree with the following statement: "Hitler was a horror of wretched proportions and Christianity and Nazism are in no way equivalent." Fair's fair?

52 Rob, if muslims denounced Osama Bin Laden as vociferously as christians denounce Hitler, then we wouldn't even be having this conversation, now would we. But they don't. So your Hitler analogy fails.

53 Rob, you don't seem malicious, so sorry for blasting you. But your argumentation is misguided.

54 Bullshit, bullshit and more bullshit. When it comes down to it they made their own bed. I feel for them but it is sucide to go there and think you will be treated civil by uncivil people. Pie-in-the-shy liberals who mean well but don't know how to do well. They should not be there. They should not be using resources that could be used in other needed areas. Everyone gets their 15 minutes. Shame theirs will be you know what.

55 All right, congratulations Improbulus. You touched a nerve and I gave you what you wanted. You win this round. Here's my list of mistakes: - You hurt my pride and I got angry. - In my anger, I attacked you rather than your hate. - In attacking you, I abandoned my original mandate of toning down the vitriol being leveled against these four hostages in Iraq and bringing a level of understanding and information regarding the work of CPT. - In abandoning my original mandate, I allowed you to redefine the parameters of this debate according to your own agenda (despite my past successes in redefining the debate according to my own). - When the debate shifted, my posts grew longer and more rambling, allowing you to pick at a single weakness to undermine the whole (I was done in by a single passing reference to Hitler buried within a 750 word post). - When you picked at my weakness, I resorted to shock tactics (for the record, I couldn't care less what Hitler believed or didn't believe. I did a quick Google search for +Hitler +Christian and copy and pasted a convenient list of quotes without even reading them. Half of those quotes could be about Papa Smurf and Gargamel and I'd be none the wiser). - In the end, I called you names and resorted to demeaning you as a rabbit. I caused you to lose face. I spoke up in violence and look at all the good it did me. If you had been the kidnapper and I had been the mediator, I would have just condemned these four men to a grisly fate they don't deserve. Hopefully, cooler heads than mine prevail. Confession time: I'm not a regular on the Jawa Report and when these four men are either released or executed, I won't be back. I first came here looking for video footage to confirm that one of those four men was who I feared he was - an old friend of mine with whom I've shared many meals. He taught me a variant he invented to the board game RISK where you played with a deck of cards that represented weapons of mass destruction, acts of propaganda and unconventional warfare. We had great fun and I still play it to this day. Five points to those of you who can see the irony in two committed pacifists nuking the bejeebers out of each other in a game of global domination. I believe I may actually have been the one to introduce him to CPT so I feel partially responsible for the predicament he's in today. There's very little that I can do right now to win my friend's freedom. But what I can do, and what I've tried very hard to do, is to bring some small measure of calm and mutual respect to an otherwise hostile corner of the blogosphere. For better or for worse, the Jawa Report has become a destination for those of us seeking breaking news and footage of our loved ones. All I want to do is ratchet down the hate until this situation has passed. I suspect there are readers here who know these men even better than I and who will suffer even more from any hate-filled words than I. So if you won't do it for me, at least do it for them. Forgive my outbursts yesterday. What can I say - it was a rough day. =o(

56 I've gotta say it. Reading these posts has amazed me. There are soooo many really ignoraNt people in the USA. Is your news media *really* that bad? Because you all seem to know shit about a country that your President lied to you about plans for his oil-war in, you re-elected him...........and he's still lying to you! How anyone could be so moronic to think that Norman Kember and the other hostages "staged their own kidnapping". They are Christian pacifists. They don't have time for *anyone* with guns, whether they are from an army, terrorists or whatever. They go to Iraq and other war-zones to help the *civilian* population. As for the kidnapping of Guiliana Segrena, I guess your media forgot to tell you something else, [along with forgetting to tell you about the thousands of US soldiers who maybe haven't *died* in Iraq, but have been seriously wounded, with limb loss, paralysis or serious psychological trauma].........that she had obtained proof positive of the US use of chemical weapons, white phospourous and newer versions of napalm-type incendiaries on *civilian* areas in Falluja. I am proud of Norman Kember, because he believes in trying to help those whose lives, families and homes are destroyed by war enough to go to Iraq, even though he *knew* he was risking his own life. He is also, unlike your President, telling the truth about the Iraq situation, and as we all know, truth hurts.

57 I'm with wintermute. I have met CPT members who are currently working in Hebron (bethlehem) / Palestine and their actions have directly benefitted the lives of numerous Palestinians (also some Israeli soldiers in mandatory service ). Please realize that these people have put their lives on the line with little more that their faith and a bright red hat to set them apart from the violent factions that abound in the region. They unapologetically move into harm's way because they know their presence can mean safe passage for others (really, what kind of momentum can a terrorist group gain by executing people bringing food and education). This principle has workedin the past and I submit it is still working; even in the kidnapping, the terrorist group was chastised by major Muslim leaders. Please note that you will never be able to kill enough people to prevent violent retribution. However, great leaders (most notably Ghandi and MLK Jr.) who recognize this were willing to sacrifice their comfort and their lives in order snap people out of their apathy/ lethargy into noticing that something was seriously wrong. I applaud CPT.