Will somebody please punch Markos Moulitsas 'Kos' Zunigas in the mouth? I'm not kidding (although I may be speaking in haste and out of anger). Some remarks are so disgusting that they are fighting words. Kos hides behind the fact that he was in the military as if it gives him license to level any criticism he wishes on the armed services of the United States. Via my blogfather
Will someone please grab Kos head, pull it out of his ass, and force him to please see below.
There are some instances of abuse and perhaps even the occasional act of real torture, these, of course should be investigated. But to say that the occasional abuse is somehow equal to the institutionalized and routine torture of the Saddam Hussein regime is disgusting, immoral, and anti-American.
If even the worse accusations turn out to be true, which I do not believe for an instance they will be, they would be nothing compared to what Saddam Hussein routinely did and on hundreds of thousands of victims.
You, Kos, are a certifiable idiot whose blind partisanship is disgusting and unethical.
1
It reminds me of the old Liberal slogan:
Feed the terrorists, Starve the incapacitated.
Posted by: Carlos at June 16, 2005 12:16 PM (8e/V4)
2
There is a real movement afoot to change the meaning of the word torture. We cannot allow it to happen, as it will end up hurting those poor souls in the world who actually do endure it. There is real torture going on in Cuba, but it is not occuring on US owned soil.
Posted by: Defense Guy at June 16, 2005 12:19 PM (jPCiN)
3
Neither Kos nor Durbin give two shits in a flying rats ass about any of the Gitmo detainees. It's all about partisan politics, which makes it even more shameful than if they
did believe what they're saying. The people of Illinois should seek to recall Durbin.
Posted by: The Dread Pundit Bluto at June 16, 2005 12:21 PM (RHG+K)
4
Libs will just tell you that torture is part of their culture so, it is okay if they do it to eachother. What I don't understand is how libs can call stacking Iraqis Torture.
Loonie liberals is just be plain stupid
Posted by: ob snooks at June 16, 2005 12:47 PM (yBHNA)
5
I think I will smack the piss out of a hippy today on the way home. Maybe I will key a Hybrid car too.
Posted by: Filthy Allah at June 16, 2005 12:49 PM (yBHNA)
6
Yep, this is the party that wants to lure us to their side. They do it through Howard Dean's insults, "Dick" Durbin's moral equivalencies, backing AI's comments, re-electing Boxer, Pelosi and Byrd for the sole purpose of their obstructionism, standing up for Ward Churchill, demeaning the intent and purpose of the Minutemen, etc.
Did I miss anything?
Posted by: Oyster at June 16, 2005 01:16 PM (fl6E1)
7
They're going to keep on until they push someone to start doing something about their treason.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at June 16, 2005 01:21 PM (0yYS2)
8
You all have missed the point! Kos is so right. I mean, don't you see the similarities? I will list them, just for your eduction:
Saddam used Abu Ghraib, and so do we!
Saddam imprisoned people, and so do we!
Saddam's guards has guns sometimes, and so do ours!
Saddam jailed many Muslims, and so do we!
Saddam killed a multitude of people in custody, and so... err, scratch that one.
Saddam had a mustache, and so do some of the people in our government!
Saddam's prisoners didn't like the fact that they were in prison, and neither do ours!
I just don't see how people can be so blind... duh!
Posted by: Wine-aholic at June 16, 2005 01:38 PM (Wsn+K)
9
They're going to keep on until they push someone to start doing something about their treason.
Tomorrow wouldn't be soon enough.
Posted by: Misha I at June 16, 2005 01:41 PM (t4bIp)
10
The treatment of these terrorists is outrageous, why this very week I heard they were using 'titty twisters' and 'chinese rope burns' on these poor terrorists, I certainly hope we can get these concentration camps closed down before they allow the use of 'wet willies'
Posted by: dave at June 16, 2005 01:42 PM (fsJ2z)
11
Partisanship over Principle. Now if i were to post those pics at the liberal message board I attend, they'd tell me that I was being harsh. Because they can't handle the truth. Only their truth. Unbelievable.
ps. your url form still wont take my homestead address, says its questionable. whats up with that?
Posted by: jm at June 16, 2005 01:46 PM (PfEpD)
12
jm,
Sorry, don't know what the problem is....
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at June 16, 2005 01:50 PM (JQjhA)
13
Oh, and if you haven't clicked on that last link at the bottom of the post, I'd highly recommend it.
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at June 16, 2005 02:00 PM (JQjhA)
14
It's a bird! it's a plane! No, it's...
The Liberal Avenger! Able to look bring chuckles to everyone everyone for spouting cliche-ridden nonsense!
How much money does the Democratic Party pay you, Junior?
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at June 16, 2005 02:14 PM (x+5JB)
15
Markos Moulitsas 'Kos' Zunigas served in the US military? I never would have guessed that in a million years. Rusty: Do you have a link or prior post?
Posted by: Bob at June 16, 2005 02:20 PM (s6nMp)
16
No, but I saw him interviewed on C-SPAN awhile back. He uses it to level the accusation of 'chickenhawk' on all who support the war but who have not been in the military.
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at June 16, 2005 02:23 PM (JQjhA)
17
Rusty,
next to each one of those photos, put up that photo of Private Englund holding the leash of the prisoner. And ask, "which picture would you rather be in?"
Posted by: rbj at June 16, 2005 02:28 PM (uW2T+)
18
"No, but I saw him interviewed on C-SPAN awhile back. He uses it to level the accusation of 'chickenhawk' on all who support the war but who have not been in the military."
Forgot the exact phrase for this logical fallacy. It's like saying you can't support a concept without experiencing it firsthand. Thus, a person could never support care for the elderly unless he or she were 65.
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at June 16, 2005 02:35 PM (x+5JB)
Posted by: Richard at June 16, 2005 02:39 PM (xFeJi)
20
Torture is Torture
Above you said that some torture took place at AG.
It doesn't make any difference who the better torturer is. Torture is Torture and Torture should not be allowed.
Posted by: MJM at June 16, 2005 02:42 PM (gUdrU)
21
What we did in AG, was that not torture?
When someone mutilates themselves over the course of an "interigation" due to the environment of the "interigation" is that not torture?
Thanks to our own HISTORY of torture, we now have to face the fact that unless we are 100% open and transparent with our prisoners we WILL face criticisms justified or not that will be impossible to dissaude with "Trust us"
Remember...the day AG happened changed everything...blow it off as "frat-like" pranks...but some of them were Saddam worthy.
Posted by: Rob at June 16, 2005 02:43 PM (/9rfp)
22
They're going to keep on until they push someone to start doing something about their treason.
Tomorrow wouldn't be soon enough.
Posted by: Misha I at June 16, 2005 01:41 PM
It's treasonous to object to the government using my tax dollars for acts that will make my family less safe? Gosh, that's funny, and here I thought we had freedom of speech in this country. I didn't realize this was already a conservative dictatorship.
Someone's going to start doing something about our treason? Ohmigosh! This can only mean the 101st Fighting Keyboarders are going to have to blog about this the rest of the day! With no supper! Oh the humanity!
Posted by: Gramma Millie at June 16, 2005 02:46 PM (eY2Ws)
23
This sounds a lot like the "dialogue" I had to endure circa 1970.
Kos was over the top, terrible, but there are real, substantive questions about our treatment of prisoners. Abu Ghraib happened. There are active investigations of prisoner deaths, not just one, I seem to recall 20 or so.
Now maybe you feel that all these prisoners deserve whatever they get. You are entitled to your opinion, and although I disagree I'm not interested in doing you bodily harm.
The substance here is the question of how we should treat these prisoners. Why isn't that discussed, as opposed to really useless rhetoric?
Posted by: SLE at June 16, 2005 02:49 PM (hsrIx)
24
Conservative dictatorship? Wow - Gramma, I'm guessin' you haven't been to Canada lately to get your pills.
Posted by: Editor at June 16, 2005 02:50 PM (adpJH)
25
This must not be allowed to stand. Either the Democrats hold these clowns responsible or we hang it around their collective necks and make them the party of UBL.
This is the most disgusted I have been with the Democrats - they are a disgrace.
Posted by: Kate at June 16, 2005 02:51 PM (46XGB)
26
The looney avenger wrote:
"It is sick how you neocon fascists try to dodge the responsibility of Abu Ghraib and the US neoimperialistic and corporate abuse of democracy and social justice."
You forgot to add "running dog capitalists". Glorious Leader™ says 10 point deduction.
"how much does Jawa get paid by PNAC and the GOP to post this?"
Glorious Leader™ says 5 point deduction for failure to capitalise. (Ironic, huh?)
"where does his money come from?"
Duh, evil capitalists, of course. Glorious Leader™ says 10 point deduction foir missing the obvious.
"You just a front for a crypto-fascist neoconservative cabal and an an oil war masquerading as an endless crusade against "terrorism.""
Glorious Leader™ says 5 point deduction for dropping a word from the Evil White Oppressor® language. Nice scare quotes though, but it won't do you any good.
"We need to stop the hate and regulate these "warbloggers" - overthrow Bushco now!"
Glorious Leader™ says 20 point deduction for being soft. Instead of "regulate" you should have written "reeducate". Also, you made no mention of the plight of the oppressed gay transgendered indigenous ethnic minority dolphins or their struggle against the Evil White Oppressor®.
Your grade is a disloyal and counterrevolutionary 50 out of a possible 100. Disgraceful. You are almost a running-dog capitalist with such a performance! I bet you even have thought about getting a job! you disloyal wretch!
If you wish, you may appeal your grade to the Peoples'Glorious Struggle For Truth®. Your appeal must be worded only in adjectives, half of which must be directly taken from The Little Red Book© or the Communist Manifesto©. It must be written in your own blood, in triplicate. It won't help you though, we know what you've been up to. You may not use the ACLU to help file your appeal, and we will know if you do.
If you do not wish to appeal, you may simply sign a confession to being disloyal to the Party™, and report for Reeducation™, which you will do anyway before it's over. Oh yes you will. Or you can just save us the paperwork and play Russian Roulette with a Party™ issued Makarov 9mm automatic pistol.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at June 16, 2005 02:52 PM (0yYS2)
27
Why doesnt someone steal this jack asses identity:
http://www.vialls.com/iraq/traitors.html
Posted by: Salamander at June 16, 2005 02:56 PM (V40IZ)
28
For the record, I didn't post that comment above purportedly from me.
It was Basil from Basil's blog.
Posted by: The Liberal Avenger at June 16, 2005 02:56 PM (kgBuS)
29
Kate, your threat is hollow. Most Democrats expect to labelled traitors nowadays. You just haven't caught up to current rhetoric.
I suggest that the next step would be to ban the party as traitorous. Haven't heard that one yet, but I expect someone will use it sooner or later.
Posted by: SLE at June 16, 2005 02:57 PM (hsrIx)
30
Kos served in the Army as an artilleryman *during the run up to Desert Storm*. He signed up out of high school. His unit was preparing to be deployed, but then the Bush41 showed some restraint and didn't move the Coalition Forces into Baghdad.
As to his patriotism and such, Kos stated during an interview with a Boston University publication in 2003 that his near-deployment experience caused him to rethink the nature of his participation in the US Army (I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist of it) and, besides, that he'd gotten the education benefits that he originally enlisted for anyway, so he got out. All of which is fine, so far as it goes.
My reaction, as a former enlisted man (4 years, 2 tours in Korea, mid-80s) is that Kos is rather an idiot for bringing up his military service.
Color me skeptical, Kos was a gunner, a 13-series guy, one who fired guns-that-go-BOOM!!!, and he somehow never quite figured out that the point of his training was to prepare him and his buddies to point that big piece hollowed out metal towards an enemy target.
So, for all his post-military education, his accomplishments as a musician, and the fact that Kos, per another interview, took a tango class in college to meet women I don't know that he's all that bright. But he did serve. In the Army.
As for my own military background, since this is the touchstone that Kos and former Delta Force Operative James Wolcott use in their 'chickenhawk' arguments, I was a Korean cryptologic translator in the mid-80s - soon after I got my training orders I figured out that somehow I would end up in Korea.
If Rusty needs one, I can email him a 'Serviceman-by-Proxy' which will grant him plenipotentiary powers to call Kos an idiot with the full blessing from a guy who served for a full year longer.
I even figured out which Korea I'd be stationed in.
Posted by: BumperStickerist at June 16, 2005 02:57 PM (F8Ixb)
31
Ok, let's try this:
Take a huge step back, forget about politics.
breath out.
And ask yourself: Is Torture ok?
If you say 'yes', please go ahead abd follow IM's advice:
play Russian Roulette with a Party™ issued Makarov 9mm automatic pistol.
Posted by: MJM at June 16, 2005 02:58 PM (gUdrU)
32
Anyone who has their air condition on right now is torturing everyone in the building. Anyone listening to Top 40 is doing the same. Anyone who is a woman and not acting submissive is torturing the men in the room (as per the Koran). SHAME! SHAME!
Posted by: KILLYOURSELVES at June 16, 2005 03:04 PM (Gi7oA)
33
The difference is that Saddam is depraved, and a moral abomination, and we are a democratic example for the world to follow. Throwing this 'kos' guy aside, the US should not stand for the abuse of prisoners in our custody.
Another thing: the real perpetrators of 'moral equivalence' here are those suggesting that this is okay because US torture is not as bad as Baathist torture.
Bottom line: Saddam and his Baathist government tortured people and put down insurections brutally, sometimes using chemical weapons. Some US troops have abused prisoners. Some US troops, 'private contractors', and intelligence agents have tortured prisoners (sometimes to death). The first is awful, the second is awful, and the third is awful. All need to stop. How you 'rate' them is up to you.
Posted by: A.M. at June 16, 2005 03:10 PM (Du4Of)
34
Liberal Avenger, trying to weasel out of what he previously posted, wrote"
"For the record, I didn't post that comment above purportedly from me.
It was Basil from Basil's blog."
Tsk, tsk, tsk, comrade. We have your confession, don't try to blame another! You are not sufficiently loyal to the party and must be purged.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at June 16, 2005 03:16 PM (0yYS2)
35
Rusty:
Good fisk. The use of the "T-word" in reference to US practice at X-Ray amounts to the hystericism of wimps. I have a friend who was taken by US Military Intelligence and locked inside a 2x2x3 foot box for ten hours. While one might tend to regard such an experience as "torturous" (and it has been fatal on occasion) it was in fact only inflicted on
volunteers. It was part of his training. Imagine being confined in the fetal position inside a dark and airless box for ten hours!
I don't think there's anything we do to "enemy combatants" that's, frankly, half as bad.
Which, by the way, suggests a strategy for dealing with interrogations that bypasses all of the hysterical nonsense, and gets right to the heart of the matter. The standard is simple. We are empowered to do anything to a detainee that an uncoerced member of our own services will volunteer to undergo.
That should put the weakling hystericism of people like Kos right out the door. And I can't think of any other straightforward standard that would settle the matter so completely.
More later...
Posted by: Demosophist at June 16, 2005 03:20 PM (FVRfJ)
36
MJM, your question is appropriate. But the problem is, many of the Bush Administration's most outspoken supporters will either refuse to provide a simple answer to a simple question. Or, they will flip-flop -- one day they will pound the table and loudly proclaim "well this isn't torture! we just don't engage in that sort of activity," and the next day they will pound the table and loudly proclaim, "torture? damn straight! and we'll do it again and again and again if it keeps us safe".
During the Presidential campaign last year, flip-flopping was seen as a bad thing by Bush supporters. But the times, they have a changed. (How convenient.)
Posted by: Gramma Millie at June 16, 2005 03:20 PM (eY2Ws)
37
The "BUT IT WAS STILL WRONG, SO IT WAS THE AME" should try to answer this:
Is 5 less than 10?
200 less than 10,000?
Or are they the same?
Posted by: TPS Reporter at June 16, 2005 03:24 PM (Gi7oA)
38
MSM, in a pathetic attempt to avoid addressing the truth, wrote:
"Torture is Torture
Above you said that some torture took place at AG.
It doesn't make any difference who the better torturer is. Torture is Torture and Torture should not be allowed."
Of course, it's not worth mentioning when it's done by anyone other than Americans. Torture is fine in Cuba, North Korea, China, Iran, Iraq under Saddam, etc., but if an American discomfits a terrorist in any way, it's heinous and brutal.
...and in another post:
"Ok, let's try this:
Take a huge step back, forget about politics.
breath out.
And ask yourself: Is Torture ok?
If you say 'yes', please go ahead abd follow IM's advice:
play Russian Roulette with a Party™ issued Makarov 9mm automatic pistol."
In which case, I advise all liberals to kill themselves. Now. Liberals have always condoned torture by Communist and Islamic regimes by either excusing it or ignoring it.
You liberals are all monumental;y treasonous pieces of shit and should all be purged in the style of your beloved "Uncle Joe" Stalin. A good liberal is a dead liberal.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at June 16, 2005 03:25 PM (0yYS2)
39
"I think I will smack the piss out of a hippy today on the way home. Maybe I will key a Hybrid car too."
Filthy Allah: I don't care what you do to hippies, commies, kosacks and other members of the deranged left. But if you key MY Hybrid (the one with the USAF sticker and Blue Service Star decals) I'll put a big hole in you with my Python and smack the piss out of your lifeless body!
Oh, and I hope Durbin finds himself in a real gulag in his next life.
Posted by: Don Miguel at June 16, 2005 03:26 PM (+KixN)
40
Oh Jeeze - Assless Chaps gave you a link and didn't even have the courtesy to trackback? Not that there's anything wrong with that *cough**cough*.
Posted by: Editor at June 16, 2005 03:29 PM (adpJH)
41
Let me remind liberal readers that almost nothing that is being claimed as 'torture' by the Center for Constitutional Rights and other organizations is actually torture. It may be 'like' torture or might be an 'abuse', but it certainly isn't torture.
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at June 16, 2005 03:30 PM (JQjhA)
42
So kos was in the Army eh? He volunteered to join, almost got deployed, and suddenly became a pacifist. There is a word for that; it's coward. I went to Desert Storm, and I saw quite a few guys crying about "I didn't sign up to go to war" crap. What did they join for? I'll tell you, they joined because they wanted to get the benefits, but without having to do more than absolutely necessary to earn them. Kos is a gutless, spineless, simpering coward, and he hates the military because he hates himself for being too chickenshit to do what real soldiers do. If he ever grows some balls, he should have the decency to stick a gun in his mouth, though at the rate he's going, somebody else will probably do it for him. Not soon enough either.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at June 16, 2005 03:31 PM (0yYS2)
43
These Libs whining about "torture" are just trying to legislate morality. I hate when Libs do that.
Posted by: Carlos at June 16, 2005 03:35 PM (8e/V4)
44
Rusty: semantics don't help if people in our custody died due to mistreatment. "Abused to death"?
Posted by: SLE at June 16, 2005 03:40 PM (hsrIx)
45
Excellent site here. I especially enjoy the fact that commenters here to stick to facts and issues without resorting to openly fantasizing about liberals being harmed, tortured or killed.
Posted by: Gramma Millie at June 16, 2005 03:43 PM (eY2Ws)
46
>>>"Or, they will flip-flop -- one day they will pound the table and loudly proclaim "well this isn't torture! we just don't engage in that sort of activity," and the next day they will pound the table and loudly proclaim, "torture? damn straight! and we'll do it again and again and again if it keeps us safe".
Gramma, MJM,
I'm a conservative that's ok with torture, AND who does not think we've used torture at Gitmo or Abu Graib. Was that too complicated for you? or was I "flopping"?
Posted by: Carlos at June 16, 2005 03:43 PM (8e/V4)
47
BumperStickerist:
98G?
I was a 98G, A/102ndMI 88-90, myself.
Posted by: Russ at June 16, 2005 03:46 PM (zShs1)
48
Libs just make shit up and throw it against the wall and the commie press just licks it all up
Posted by: Filthy Allah at June 16, 2005 03:54 PM (yBHNA)
49
Carlos, thank you for responding. If you can stick to that position for at least a few days, we'll document you as Conservative Non Flipper #1.
Posted by: Gramma Millie at June 16, 2005 03:56 PM (eY2Ws)
50
>>>"Carlos, thank you for responding. If you can stick to that position for at least a few days, we'll document you as Conservative Non Flipper #1"
Gramma,
no problem, I'm happy to oblige. In a few days when you get around to documenting it, perhaps you can show me all those other conservatives that you've documented as "flip-floppers"? Even a single solitary name will do. Thanks.
Posted by: Carlos at June 16, 2005 04:04 PM (8e/V4)
51
Very interesting postings, by very interesting people.
I am not one of those who believes that people who have not been there have no right to speak on the subject.
I firmly support, and serve at the blessing of the very rights that I have been born with in my beloved Land.
I am not going to try and state all the Iraqi people whom have met us with open arms, thanked us for what we have done and continue to do so in their own beloved land; nor am I going to waste my breath describing the Incredible men that have lost their very lives protecting the innocent-and hesitating to protect themselves when confronted with combat that could Kill Innocents. those men that I have known, and continue to serve with, are too great of Heroes subject their stories to a forum were any implicite hate for what they did and do permeates.
However, I would just like to state for the record:
as I prepare for the land of the Euphraties once again--
Excepting the Esprit de Corps, and fighting spirit of the men that I serve with...of whom the hardcharging, Can do, Honor Courage and Committment is the baptismal water they are ordained in--
Not one MARINE has, or ever will, be taken PRISONER by these Enemy in Iraq (or the Afganistan). WHY?
We know that not a one of us would ever be granted QUARTER, as we do for them.
WE would be tortured and Killed, BEHEADED and GUTTED on video, for the world to forget even more quickly than they do those who already have been.
Consciousness and bare hands would keep me in the fight, while when they throw down their arms, they get Air-Conditioned Meals of the kind not found in an MRE I've choked down.
For that, please do not forsake those that believe in exactly why they have volunteered, to give their life for those to always continue to have the right live and speak as freely as we do now.
remember 9/11. I was there. and Loved and Lost.
Posted by: USMarine at June 16, 2005 04:05 PM (FzIQt)
52
Carlos, could you elaborate on your "I'm a conservative who's OK with torture" statement? Are you OK with torture generally? Or is your position maybe more along the lines of, it's OK for the Bush Administration to use torture in the GWOT? And if it's closer to the latter, are there any limits to your position -- i.e., in terms of who we torture and how we torture them? FWIW, these are sincere questions, I'm just trying to understand your position. Thank you.
Posted by: Gramma Millie at June 16, 2005 04:25 PM (eY2Ws)
53
I suppose it must be mentioned again to some here that in the US, when actual cases of abuse and/or torture are proven, we prosecute. In Saddam land, you might get promoted, or at least not tortured yourself, maybe.
Posted by: Defense Guy at June 16, 2005 04:34 PM (lVjfM)
54
Correct 98G,
but in Air Force terms at the time I was a 208x4G.
I was at Skivvy Nine from 84-86 ... we probably worked the same communications of interest.
Language training at the Presidio of Monterey, back when they still had beer machines in the dorm. View of the Bay, Cannery Row and the Dream Theater right down the hill ... man, it was torture, using the current working definition of torture favored by Kos and his ilk.
Yes, I said ilk.
Posted by: BumperStickerist at June 16, 2005 04:36 PM (u6K4W)
55
It reminds me of the old Liberal slogan:
Feed the terrorists, Starve the incapacitated.
Carlos, I already
have that covered, but thanks for mentioning it.
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 16, 2005 04:38 PM (CO4eV)
Posted by: Confederate Yankee at June 16, 2005 04:40 PM (CO4eV)
57
Gramma,
I'm in favor of doing what is necessary and effective to extract information that we have reason to believe will actually save American lives.
That does not mean I'm in favor of torturing, or even humilating people, just for kicks, as appears to have happenned in Abu Graib-- but neither am I all broken up about it cause it couldn't happen to better people.
Posted by: Carlos at June 16, 2005 04:58 PM (8e/V4)
58
Confederate,
that slogan is apparently making its way around the web. I saw it at LGF.
Posted by: Carlos at June 16, 2005 05:00 PM (8e/V4)
59
The US sets the standard for human rights, worldwide. Washington itself has reiterated that the US is the leader in this regard.
These folks are being treated no different than Americans would like to see their own sons and daughters treated when they are captured by foreign fighters.
Posted by: Thoughful at June 16, 2005 05:44 PM (BFEfg)
60
Gramma, can I put a (admittedly rather silly) hypothetical to you. Say you had proof positive of a nuclear weapon placed in a unknown but heavily populated city on a 24 hour countdown and you actually had in custody the terrorist who had planted the bomb, now you know the man had an absolute urine phobia, so would you allow your interrogators to urinate on the man if you knew this was the only possible way of obtaining the whereabouts of the bomb?
This is obviously a very unlikely scenario i.e the choice of urinating on the man or sacrificing a million or so innocents, but the simple fact is that a *similar* scenario isn't. There may well come a day when someone with just your ideals is faced with such a choice.
I'd assume your answer to the question would be no, but if it isn't, what lengths would you go to to extract the information?
Posted by: John at June 16, 2005 06:01 PM (I3B5B)
61
BumperStickerist,
Yep, those were definitely the days. Monterey was sheer hell on Earth. Especially having to look at all those civilian women.
Posted by: Russ at June 16, 2005 06:03 PM (zShs1)
62
Butch,
Dammit.... I had a very long answer, and it got swallowed. Crap.
Posted by: Russ at June 16, 2005 06:07 PM (zShs1)
63
[Wow! Google Desktop Search is *definitely* my friend - it found my comment in my browser cache. Good thing I hit the Preview button before my comment disappeared into the ether. Good thing I thought to try GDS....]
Humane and just treatment, indeed. The "just" part of that means we can and *should* treat criminals as criminals... and if the "illegal" in "illegal combatant" means anything, it means that they are war criminals.
Guess what's included in the range of punishments for war crimes? Hermann Goering wasn't given a sentence of 20-to-life, y'know.
What makes a legal combatant? The rules I see most often (from Article 4) are
a) being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates,
b) having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance,
c) carrying arms openly, and
d) conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
That's an "AND" proposition, not an "OR." All four criteria have to be met. AFAIK, only a) is routinely the case with the current enemy.
Now, I'm not saying that illegals should be executed at the point of capture. I *am* saying that if captured, there ought not to be days, weeks and months between capture and execution. Prisoners, both legal and illegal combatants, are as a matter of course secured and moved to a central location of some sort while in the field, before being sent off a longer distance, as is the case now, to a prison camp of one sort or another.
This is going to sound harsh to a lot of folks, but I'm inclined to think that a standing General Court ought to exist at the collection point, that illegals brought in for processing should be liable to trial on the spot, with the troops who did the capturing present as witnesses at the trials.
Mind you, I'm not terribly thrilled by the idea, but if the laws of war are to mean anything, then the first thing that has to be done is to punish those who break those laws. That doesn't mean executing everyone - but it sure as hell means that illegal combatants should know that they are subject to that punishment if captured.
As Bill Whittle noted in "Sanctuary,"
http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000125.html (the first three sections), those who break the rules endanger not only our own soldiers, but the truly innocent civilians.
OK, I've gone on long enough.
Posted by: Russ at June 16, 2005 06:11 PM (zShs1)
64
Double-crap... I made the previous comment on the wrong thread.
Posted by: Russ at June 16, 2005 06:27 PM (zShs1)
65
Forgot the exact phrase for this logical fallacy. It's like saying you can't support a concept without experiencing it firsthand. Thus, a person could never support care for the elderly unless he or she were 65.
Or that you can't be anti-crime without having been a police officer or have a right to voice any concern about fires without serving as a firefighter.
Gitmo is not Dachau, it isn't even Manzanar. It's more like Rikers Island. Abu Ghairb... much of the stuff that happened at Abu Gharib, and by people who were prison guards in their civilian life. What Durbin and the rest need to consider is what's happening in American prisons, recognize any similarities to Abu Gharib and Gitmo(especially when they clamor for Ken Lay to experience prison rape for Enron's shenanigans) and do something about this problem or quit acting like it's the worst crisis in the world except if it happens to our own.
Posted by: h0mi at June 16, 2005 07:38 PM (zpJBl)
66
MJM sez "Torture is Torture"
Ok...let's go with this a bit. "R*ape is R*ape", correct? And no decent person would advocate or apologize for "r*ape" right?
Now, the question then becomes, "what is r*ape?"
What? You think you know what r*ape is? Au contraire! While YOU may think r*ape is forceable/unconsented sexual intercourse that is only ONE aspect of r*ape.
If a female gets "caught up in the moment", has sex and wakes up the next morning with regrets..
that's r*ape
Been sexually harrassed? Had to listen to a dirty joke against your will? Feel you were pressured to engage in a little grabass at a party and are now embarrassed?
Tantamount to r*ape and if you have ANY QUALMS about the definition then, by golly, you are SUPPORTING R*APE and are NO DIFFERENT than Ted Bundy!
Gender-feminists have engaged in this politicization of semantics for years. Stake out the verbal turf, make it your own, stretch the definition all out of proportion then demonize anyone that hesitates to kiss your boots with the worst aspect of the word.
Regret = r*ape
Dirty jokes = sexual harrasment
al Qaeda terrorists = POWs or civilians as defined by the Geneva Convention
sleep deprivation/Christine Aguilera music/no food for 18 hrs = TORTURE
What a bunch of whiney-assed quisling prom-queens! they won't like us..whaaa NO WONDER Osama boasted he would win because Americans have no belief in their own values. You idiots are perfect dhimmi material and I am ASHAMED to call you fellow citizens.
Posted by: Darleen at June 16, 2005 08:05 PM (FgfaV)
67
I envy the trust of big government exhibited by some of the posters here. It must be comforting. Imagine if Hitlery Clintoon, with the help of the MSM, becomes president. Would you trust her with the electrodes and mentsrual blood. I can just see the homosexual orgies. To me nothing is more scary than big government conservatives. You could call them social conservatives or theocrats or fascists. The Union is in danger from within. War is coming to our shores. Us liberals will wear blue like the sky and water. You conservatives will wear red,like the blood of christ when he faced the executioner. When the war is over we'll use Gitmo for the war profiteers and traitors in our government. Instead of putting Reagan on Rushmore, we'll rename Gitmo "The Reagan Rape Rooms" as a reminder to the nation builders and arms merchants that the meek will indeed inherit the earth. It's just the waiting right now.
Posted by: tinkletoes at June 16, 2005 08:47 PM (68M32)
68
If you get me to him I will either beat him to a pulp or die in the attempt.
An old exJarhead
Posted by: Rod Stanton at June 16, 2005 09:02 PM (5XW4C)
69
tinkletoes, put down the joint.
Posted by: SPQR at June 16, 2005 09:35 PM (xauGB)
70
for the love of God, mates --
I drifted over here to see what goes on in the minds of the conservative right these days, and I have to say -- IT AIN'T MUCH!!!
30+ prisoners have been TORTURED TO DEATH by US soldiers. An estimated 20 of these did not even belong in the prison -- were picked up for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
USA is not an isolated nation -- this is the reality we have to live with, that the rest of the world now regards us as a regime that uses torture.
Happy with that?
The conservative right is looking more Hitlerian every day.
Posted by: astonished at June 16, 2005 09:50 PM (9mP8a)
71
Speechless. Seriously. Where are the Scoop Jacksons of the Democratic Party?
Posted by: Will Franklin at June 16, 2005 10:04 PM (Wnw6K)
72
>>>"The conservative right is looking more Hitlerian every day."
Leftard,
are you saying there's something wrong with being hitlerian? I happen to like it. Run along now back to your loony bin and report what you saw here.
Posted by: Carlos at June 16, 2005 10:09 PM (8e/V4)
73
astonished:
Please provide a source for your claim that 30+ prisoners have been tortured to death by US soldiers. And for the estimate that 20 of them did not belong in the prison, along with the criteria used to determine whether they were "in the wrong place at the wrong time" or were legitimately imprisoned.
Thank you.
Posted by: Morgan at June 16, 2005 10:10 PM (eNuaW)
74
Also, unless you can produce evidence that torture is sanctioned by the US government (as opposed to, say, investigated when it is alleged and prosecuted when it is proved), I can only conclude that the absence of evidence is enough for you and "the rest of the world" to regard us "as a regime that uses torture".
In which case it would make no sense to care what you and the rest of the world think at all, as your beliefs would be paranoid fantasies.
Posted by: Morgan at June 16, 2005 10:30 PM (eNuaW)
75
I tried to trackback to this post and was unsuccessful. Links related to my post below can be found on my site www.lumponablog.com.
This post could also be titled: On the Equivalency of Rap Music and Beheadings
Next time you hear Dick Durban and other democrats whine about the conditions at Guantanamo, remind them that this is an island paradise compared with places of real torture.
Daily Kos has joined the madness and decided to compare US torture tactics to those of Saddam Hussein. If only it were true.
If you have the stomach for it, you can see the beheading videos and other acts of violence by the terrorists in Iraq at Young Nationalist. WARNING: These videos are extremely graphic and not easy to watch. Make your decision to view them carefully.
After watching these, any time you hear a Dick Durban or Daily Kos dare open their mouth and complain about our treatment of captured terrorists you will know the danger of liberalism in your bones. You will remember how the New York Times and other liberal media inundated us with images of Abu Gharib and ignored the horrors in these videos. You will also remember that many liberal media outlets still insist on calling the men who commit the atrocities in these videos and images insurgents.
Posted by: Lumpy at June 16, 2005 11:08 PM (zzzPq)
76
Look, go read the post at Kos before you flame off. He is not saying that torture under the US is as bad as under Saddam. It's not, and NO ONE IS SAYING THAT. What he was saying is that torture is equally wrong, no matter who is doing it.
People on both sides have to learn to read things in context before spouting off. No lefties love Saddam or his torture chambers. We just do not want to see that sort of thing happen under our watch either, because, even if it's not as extreme as the horrible pictures above, torture is just plain wrong. I would assume that most reasonable people on the right would also agree that it's not ok for us to torture people. Am I wrong?
Posted by: sigh at June 16, 2005 11:08 PM (/Enlv)
77
Folks,
There is no equivalency between the state policy of the use of torture (i.e. death, dismemberment, scarring) in Saddam's Iraq (or for that matter, in the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, North Korea, Cuba, Nicaragua, etc.) and the actions of a few soldiers on the night shift at AG. That's why we have laws and actually enforce them to deal with the bad apples. There is no neocon conspiracy, (sorry to disabuse the notion for the lefty loonies), there is no policy of true torture - no nada. The bankrupt concept of leftists to try to make the arguement that there is a US policy to torture is just wrong. Actually, leftists should know torture when they see it since most of the truly murderous regimes in the past 100 years have been leftist, socialist, national socialist, or communist. I also find it entertaining that the left continues to move the goal-posts when it comes to US behavior - the US military is by far the most humane, most discrete, most law abiding, and most discriminating war machine ever fielded, period. I would never support the policy of real torture - but if a hard interrogation is what is necessary, then so be it.
Posted by: WS at June 16, 2005 11:16 PM (KCsjG)
78
>>>"What he was saying is that torture is equally wrong, no matter who is doing it."
sigh,
Sigh.....no, it's not. You Lefties are so black and white-- no nuance whatsoever.
If we torture a terrorist to gain intelligence that saves lives it not "the same" as Saddam torturing innocent civilians to tyrranize them and prop up his kleptocracy.
Not that we're torturing anybody. You have no evidence that we are (and no, abuse is NOT torture).
Posted by: Carlos at June 16, 2005 11:19 PM (8e/V4)
79
sigh:
Torture is not "equally wrong" if the definition of torture has been modified so that in the one case it refers to dripping acid on someone and in the other it refers to exposing them to Christina Aguilera.
Toture is also not "equally wrong" if in one case it is done for the sheer sadistic pleasure of watching ones' political enemies die in horrible pain and in the other case it is done to obtain information that will save innocent peoples' lives.
Posted by: Morgan at June 16, 2005 11:20 PM (eNuaW)
80
Absolutely. Anybody who tries to compare GTMO and Abu Ghraib under U.S. control to Abu Ghraib under Saddam Hussein is not rational, and may be a f*cking moron. If anyone makes such a comparison to my face, I'll say, "You are a f*cking moron."
I purchased "Voices of Iraq," a documentary filmed in Iraq last year. An Iraqi man is asked what he thinks about U.S. abuses at Abu Ghraib, and he laughs, pulls up his shirt to reveal healed bullet wounds, and says that he was shot at Abu Ghraib under Saddam Hussein.
It's our job to stop the liberals in 2006 and 2008. I'm not overly conservative, and I'm no Republican, but I'll side with anyone to keep these idiots away from power.
Posted by: Brian Blazevic at June 16, 2005 11:20 PM (b2Y3g)
81
"I would never support the policy of real torture - but if a hard interrogation is what is necessary, then so be it."
Ok, but don't you think we ought to be really crystal clear about what the distinctions are, rather than leaving that to the judgement of individuals? There's a real slippery slope there: if one punch is ok, why not two, and so on so forth. When does "hard interrogation" become torture?
Well, one answer is that we have international guidelines that make that distinction, and we wouldn't be having this argument if we agreed to adhere to those guidelines with all of our prisoners. Even if you don't like the Geneva Conventions, you still need to have a crystal clear and open policy about what does and does not constitute torture.
Part of being the "good guys" means never sinking to the "bad guys" level.
Posted by: sigh at June 16, 2005 11:30 PM (/Enlv)
82
sigh,
out of uniform POWs are not protected under the Geneva Conventions, and if we treat them humanely it's because that's the kind of people we are-- not because we're obligated to by treaty.
But we're not interested in your clumsy moral equivalencies. Torture and abuse are not the same thing. Neither is torture for the purposes of saving lives the same as torture for the purposes of propping up a tyrranical dictatorship, i.e., your "gulags".
You Kos types only show how moronic you are with your stupid moral equivalencies that almost never fit. You are to blame for an entire movement of anti-Libs who call themselves South Park conservatives, and that should tell you something.
Posted by: Carlos at June 16, 2005 11:39 PM (8e/V4)
83
The guidelines themselves are vague, sigh.
Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, 1984
Article 1
For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
So, what is severe pain or suffering? Confinement to a hot room? A cold room? Poking in the chest with a finger? Light pushing? Sleep deprivation? Flashing lights? Loud music?
Those are tactics that were approved by the US government. Someone asked, "can we do this?" and was told "yes".
None of these comes close to the line, as far as I am concerned. Punching is not allowed as far as I know, and a number of invstigations into allegations of assault are underway.
In addition, the Geneva Conventions do not apply to illegal combatants.
Posted by: Morgan at June 16, 2005 11:44 PM (eNuaW)
84
Morgan:
"exposing them to Christina Aguilera": If that's all that was going on in Gitmo and Abu Ghraib, we wouldn't be having this discussion, and it's misleading to choose that part of Durbin's statement as an example. Go back and re-read his comments and focus instead on the sitting in urine and excrement part. Forget about the comparison to Saddam, because that just clouds the issue. The question really is: Is it ok for us to be holding prisoners in these conditions? Doesn't that sound more to you like the work of a repressive and cruel government? Unless you are one of those people who thinks that criminals lose all their rights (which is not what our justice system is founded on), then it should make you at least a little uncomfortable.
"done to obtain information that will save innocent peoples' lives": Can you or anyone else prove that the information we've extracted under these methods has in fact made us safer? I don't think so. I'll grant you that intent makes some difference, but the truth is that we have no idea what's going on down there or whether the ends in anyway justify the means. Another reasonable question might be whether all the detainees at Gitmo are bonafide, in-the-know terrorists with valuable information to be extracted. Again, hard to say, but I'm going to guess no.
Posted by: sigh at June 16, 2005 11:47 PM (/Enlv)
85
Durbin's "sitting in excrement" statement comes (I think) from a report by an FBI agent assigned to Gitmo. An odd report, actually.
The agent stated in the report that "a couple" times, he/she entered interrogation rooms at Gitmo, and saw detainees chained to the floor in a fetal position (his/her writing is poor - it is unclear whether the detainees were chained so that they could not move from a fetal position or were simply restrained from leaving and had laid down, though he/she does note that there was no chair, which would seem to indicate the latter).
He/she goes on to state that these detainees had "usually" defecated and/or urinated on themselves, though it does not say whether this was their idea (an attempt to get someone to come close to clean them up?) or not.
I believe it was the same agent who stated in a previous section of the report that the only "non-FBI approved tactic" he/she had seen was wrapping a detainee in an Israeli flag.
Durbin has exaggerated the report, and you were fooled into thinking that we were holding prisoners in piles and puddles of their own excrement.
One other point. These are not criminals. They are illegal combatants engaged in war against our country. Holding them indefinitely is a kindness. They could be shot.
As for whether all of those held have valuable information to give, I doubt it. I don't see anything wrong with using all legitimate methods to find out.
Posted by: Morgan at June 17, 2005 12:20 AM (eNuaW)
86
One last comment, and then I've got to stop (dam...blog...addiction).
Without going through them one by one, let me say that I will concede some of the points that have been made, but dispute others.
Let me just say that this comment really cuts to the heart of the matter: "if we treat them humanely it's because that's the kind of people we are". That's really what this is about. Where do you draw the line between acceptable methods and torture (or abuse -- I can't say that I take a great deal of comfort in saying that we don't torture, we abuse), and how does that distinction reflect on "the kind of people we are"? I feel that those kinds of distinctions are really the measures of our greatness as a nation. And any time there is some grey area, I think we ought to take a step back and think about it. Maybe Kos' and Durbin's comments don't read that way to you, but that's what I feel this is actually about.
As a final note, I'd like to thank the people who responded respectfully. I don't think this stuff is always black and white, and most of the time when you actually get down to it, there's really some reason why there are two sides to the debate - this stuff is sometimes not so simple. To the people who immediately jumped to insults and generalizations, well, you're the reason political conversation in this country degenerates into simplistic shouting matches. I'm disappointed to say that we've got people like you on our side.
Posted by: sigh at June 17, 2005 12:33 AM (/Enlv)
87
>>are you saying there's something wrong with being >>hitlerian? I happen to like it. Run along now back >>to your loony bin and report what you saw here.
>>Posted by: Carlos at June 16, 2005 10:09 PM
Carlos,
Who lives in the loony bin, me opposing torture or you making fond of nazism?
Posted by: astonished at June 17, 2005 01:40 AM (9mP8a)
88
sigh:
I agree that things are not black and white, and that there are some things we should not resort to in order to obtain information. Much of the difference in where people draw the line can be traced to the seriousness with which they treat the threat and how effective they think various methods will be.
I think the threat is very serious, and therefore object when people try to draw the line on "acceptable methods" somewhere on the nice side of "yucky" - as though the only legitimate way to obtain information would be to shower detainees with gifts until they loved us so much they would tell us anything. Somehow I suspect that just won't work.
To your last comment. If we disagree on the intent of Durbin's and Kos's statements, it may be because, in my view, both Durbin and Kos have a long history of blind partisanship. They don't want to seek or spread the truth - they don't care much for their country, either - they only want to say things that harm their enemies. If that means telling the truth, great. If it means twisting the truth, no problem. If it means lying, well, so be it. They are quite willing to insult and make generalizations to further their partisan agenda. They are very much like those whose behavior you decry.
Durbin didn't read the report he did because it showed that detainees were being tortured. It did not. He read it because it was lewd, and graphic, and might cause people to decide on an emotional level, without thinking, "that's horrible, this administration is horrible".
And now I also need to unplug from the blogs.
Posted by: Morgan at June 17, 2005 01:53 AM (Yci9I)
89
"Kos hides behind the fact that he was in the military as if it gives him license to level any criticism he wishes on the armed services of the United States."
You sir are correct. Any American can level any criticism they wish at the armed services of the United States. One doesn't need to have previously served to offer up criticism(or praise). The 1st Amendent gives us that right.
Posted by: puzzled at June 17, 2005 02:44 AM (moq9v)
90
hmmm,
Quite scary in here, what with all the lunatics ranting that torture is OK if our guys do it, cause you see our guys are the good guys and while if the baddies torture then they are evil but if the goodies do then thats OK cause we are going it for the right reasons, forget the fact that the victims may actually be innocent ( what innocent, you must be a liberal idiot, noone is innocent our guys never ever capture the wrong guys, never ever bomb civilians, or shoot our allies) forget all that, a civilized nation should not torture people full stop, and forget the degrees of torture nonsense, what is wrong is wrong.
Posted by: liberal Idiot at June 17, 2005 04:06 AM (fxYIm)
91
Carlos,
So TORTURE is ok with you? Can you look at that statement and totally agree? Because it means that if I torture YOU, you'll be ok with.
You scare me, really
Posted by: MJM at June 17, 2005 04:42 AM (vCCcy)
92
Kos = Hitler
(Just kidding, Kos is obviously not even close to Hitler. But above does illustrate the insanity and stupidity of today's so-called "liberals" and their propaganda)
Posted by: Kos = Hitler at June 17, 2005 08:14 AM (Gi7oA)
93
>>>"So TORTURE is ok with you? "
MJM,
yup. And if you Lefties in your hatred for America decided to bomb our cities I'd personally torture you, MJM, too. I'm make you wear an underoos hat and I'd point my finger at your wiener to embarrass you, and then I'd get really rough and have some sexy naked broad rub her titties in your face. As you can see, I'm a monster.
Posted by: Carlos at June 17, 2005 08:17 AM (8e/V4)
94
Nobody here is saying that torture is ALWAYS morally right (thought clearly sometimes it is...i.e. Ticking Bomb scenerio, etc).
And pointing out that the US is NOT THE SAME as the Nazis, Soviets, Saddam, etc is NOT saying that torture is ALWAYS morally right either (though that is how you lefties desperately want to spin this).
Leftism = Slave Morality. Never forget this. They WANT you to feel guilty, to accept that 1+2=6, that 20 is larger than 200. DON'T FALL FOR IT. It is just misdirection, and (given the posts of lefties here), they can't even do it well.
Posted by: Leftism = Slave Morality at June 17, 2005 08:19 AM (Gi7oA)
95
sigh says
"To the people who immediately jumped to insults and generalizations, well, you're the reason political conversation in this country degenerates into simplistic shouting matches."
Let's see, could it also have something to do with actual representitives of our country equating the actions of our military to those of Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia or Pol Pot's Cambodia. Do you suppose that the insults might stem from an anger towards anyone who could condone that? Since it's not true, it only aids our enemy and must make those currently sacrificing for us wonder why they even bother.
Posted by: Defense Guy at June 17, 2005 08:28 AM (lVjfM)
96
Say goodbye to the moral highground. Before you had G.W.B. and 9/11 I usually could perceive the US having it.
But now your just ruled by fear.
And like Yoda says: fear leads to anger, which leads to hatred which leads to the dark side.
by the way: Torture cannot be morally right in any situation.
Posted by: MJM at June 17, 2005 09:15 AM (vCCcy)
97
no, fear leads to Dhimmitude.
Yoda was on the wrong planet.
Posted by: stevezilla at June 17, 2005 09:25 AM (5pZhc)
98
MJM,
our enemies don't give a rat's ass about no moral highground, and it does me no good when I'm dead. I too used to be naive and spout empty platitudes back in my Lib days. Then I grew up and became a man and put that kind of tomfoolery behind me.
Posted by: Carlos at June 17, 2005 09:26 AM (8e/V4)
99
Your enemies?
Who are your enemies?
And why would you die by their hand?
Posted by: MJM at June 17, 2005 09:38 AM (vCCcy)
100
MJM,
anybody who kills innocent Americans is my enemy. And they will die because of silly Liberals and their empty platitudes like "moral highground".
Posted by: Carlos at June 17, 2005 09:41 AM (8e/V4)
101
MJM:
It is widely accepted that homicide is morally justified in self-defense and defense of other innocents.
To say that torture would not be justifiable under those same circumstances seems inconsistent.
Do you disagree with the first statement? If not, could you explain your thinking regarding the (apparent) contradiction.
Posted by: Morgan at June 17, 2005 09:42 AM (eNuaW)
102
Dhimmitude is dead on. Liberals (such as MJM) either want to become slaves or want YOU to become a slave.
Sorry MJM, but I would rather be free than be a slave. If your "moral highground" means submitting to people who beat the shit our of women, stone gays to death and fly jetliners into office buildings, I guess I am not on your "moral highground."
PS: It is YOU who is ruled by fear, especially fear of those you percieve as your "betters" (i.e. Europe). You might enjoy serfdom in the herd...but I will never submit.
Posted by: Leftism = Slave Morality at June 17, 2005 09:43 AM (Gi7oA)
103
ok, that was a hollow statement:
anybody who kills innocent Iraqi's is my enemy. And they will die because of silly Americans and their empty platitudes like "democracy".
Just to show you that perception is everything.
Posted by: MJM at June 17, 2005 09:47 AM (vCCcy)
104
MJM,
When a civilized society is threatened by savages who will one day have the capability to wipe out a large number of us, not only is torture okay, it is morally mandated. Our survival trumps theirs. If you ask me why, I will tell you that it is because I want to survive. In a time of war, that is my morality - it is that simple. I may also point out that our civilization offers far more to society than the fascist theocracy of our enemies. In the end this is our war to loose, and it is people who think like you who are working - consciously or unconsciously - towards victory for the savages.
The reason that I believe that China will one day overtake us as a superpower is that they are not so ignorant as to allow themselves to be hypnotized by their own love affair with the human mind. We would be wise to do the same.
Civilization is nothing but a ephermeral veneer that shields us from savagery. People who think as you do have the luxury of pontificating about the world from a place of safety, shielded away from the raw life-and-death struggle of war. You confuse your naive concepts of the world with the way that the world actually works. People like you are dangerous.
Rome proudly displayed their own form of moral superiority while the barbarians knocked at the gate. We all know how that ended.
The fact is, when dealing with people like these you would be wise to sink below their level. Only a fool would stand transfixed by the creations in their own mind of such an undefinable conceptual framework as moral superiority. Who defines this morality? What the hell does moral superiority mean anyway?
Talking and debating morals is okay for a civilized society in times of peace. It keeps us busy and helps us learn something about ourselves. However, in times or war against an enemy willing to kill themselves in order to murder as many of us as possible, all this talk and posturing is for ignorant fools who should still be sucking their thumbs.
Posted by: Lumpy at June 17, 2005 09:47 AM (mkMY1)
105
Just to show you that perception is everything.
MJM,
it's not hollow, it just means that people have reached a point where we'll just have to agree to disagree. In a democracy, we settle that by elections. But in war, we settle it with guns by blowing the other guy away. I'm in favor of blowing them away, they're in favor of blowing us away.
To quote Wellington, hard pounding this, gentlemen, let's see who pounds the hardest. Now THAT'S what I call moral high ground.
Posted by: Carlos at June 17, 2005 09:51 AM (8e/V4)
106
Carlos,
Well put and to the point.
Posted by: Lumpy at June 17, 2005 09:53 AM (mkMY1)
107
MJM is almost parody, I couldn't have asked for a better example to illustrate the concept of Leftism being Slave Morality.
He is willing to put his "morality" above his freedom, life and the lives of those he loves. The net result of this "morality" he pimps is slavery, mass murder and tyranny. He calls this wretched state "the higher ground" -- though it looks like Hell to me.
Leftism is twisted and sick. It is insanity. MJM and Kos are either insane and sucidal...
...or are they just calculating their words will drive us mad enough to submit to them and call them Masters?
Posted by: Leftism = Slave Morality at June 17, 2005 09:58 AM (Gi7oA)
108
Thanks Lumpy. But if I quote Wellington, I should at least quote him right. He said pound the LONGEST, not hardest, and he was right. Victory is about staying power, and the Left is sapping our staying power.
Posted by: Carlos at June 17, 2005 09:58 AM (8e/V4)
109
Rooster, is that you?
Posted by: Carlos at June 17, 2005 10:00 AM (8e/V4)
110
Morgan,
This is not an easy question, but I'll try to answer it.
concerning statement 1#: If someone tries to kill me or someone I love then they are dead.
statement 2#: this statement just doesn't have the same sense of urgency to it than statement 1# has. there must be time for you to do something else, besides spending valuable time torturing someone which may result in nothing.
Posted by: MJM at June 17, 2005 10:08 AM (vCCcy)
111
Carlos,
I was unaware of the Wellington post error.
When you stated the "I'm in favor of blowing them away, their in favor of blowing us away", you described the morality of war. To the other side and to outsiders, it may not seem moral. But when you pause a moment to look in on your children you begin to feel as if pulling out all of the stops against these savage bastards is the most moral thing that you could do.
Liberals do not understand survival. They proved it in the last couple of elections and continue to prove it every time they open their mouths.
Posted by: Lumpy at June 17, 2005 10:09 AM (mkMY1)
112
>>>"Liberals do not understand survival. They proved it in the last couple of elections and continue to prove it every time they open their mouths."
Lumpy,
I won't deny their "good intentions", but you have touched on something that goes to the core of Liberalism. It's a destructive ideology, as you've suggested-- even to themselves!
They are willing to kill the Democratic party for the sake of the "moral highground" because Liberalism, in its self-destructiveness, is primarily about idealism, not realism.
Posted by: Carlos at June 17, 2005 10:15 AM (8e/V4)
113
What if torture will prevent someone from killing you or someone you love? What if the same person is already a criminal (mass murderer, rapist, etc), who should already be executed for a capital crime? So, in this case, is it always wrong to...
* Raise or lower the tempature from 40-100 degrees
* Flush a piece of paper down a toilet
* Play rap or pop music for a length of time
Are any above equal to th 12 million murdred in Nazi concetration capmps? Or the 2.5 million who were killed in the gulag?
PS: I know worse torture was done too, but the we can discuss what degree of torture is right only when we have 1) defined torture and 2) accepted that sometime torture is morally necessary.
Posted by: Leftism = Slave Morality at June 17, 2005 10:16 AM (Gi7oA)
114
torture is morally necessary?
this roughly equates to: Evil = Good
how far you've fallen already.......
Posted by: MJM at June 17, 2005 10:21 AM (vCCcy)
115
MJM,
torture = evil? Always?
What happenned to the complex and "nuanced" shades of gray Libs we've all come to know and love?
and they say conservatives are black and white.
Posted by: Carlos at June 17, 2005 10:26 AM (8e/V4)
116
I like movies. Remember "Dirty Harry," when the detective, in order to get information, stands on the wounded leg of the psycho who kidnapped a girl and put her in a hole with only so much to air to breath? That was against the law, but I believe it to have been morally justified. Libs called the film "fascist," but call it good detective work. Just like getting valuable information out of terrorists using whatever coersion is necessary is good detective work. The wacko in the film, and the terrorists--We're talking about criminals here, folks.
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at June 17, 2005 10:29 AM (x+5JB)
117
"torture is morally necessary?"
Sometimes, just as all violent force sometimes is.
"this roughly equates to:"
My view roughly equates to reality. Meanwhile your twisted "worldview" comes no where close to reality.
So are you...
1) Insane and suicidal?
2) Just lying about your beliefs in order to trick us into giving you power?
Which is it?
Posted by: Leftism = Slave Morality at June 17, 2005 10:30 AM (Gi7oA)
118
Who said I was a liberal?
Yes, torture is evil. It scars the torturer and the one tortured in ways I cannot even imagine. What good can come of it?
leftism = slave mentality: torture will prevent someone from killing me? more likely someone will try to kill me after I tortured them.
Posted by: MJM at June 17, 2005 10:33 AM (vCCcy)
119
MJM: You have not defined torture. You have not shown how torture is different than any other type of violent force (which you already agreed is sometimes necessary).
Read the "Dirty Harry" scenario above. Your example is contradictory, as you already said it torture (which you leave undefined) is always wrong - so who cares if it MIGHT stop someone from killing you?
Maybe I was too hard by calling you either insane or liar (terms we use for sick adults), maybe you are just a silly child...
Posted by: Leftism = Slave Morality at June 17, 2005 10:38 AM (Gi7oA)
120
MJM:
A fair response. With regard to #1, good. At least we can count on you when the danger comes to your home. That's better than nothing.
With regard to #2. It is fairly easy to imagine a scenario in which information leads to the capture of someone who has released a bioweapon somewhere in a large city - maybe he even told us himself. We don't know what the pathogen was - he won't say, and we don't know where to go to find out - he won't tell us that either. In any case, the number of people equipped to search for it is limited due to a finite supply of appropriate detection equipment.
We need to identify the source and the pathogen quickly to prevent the spread of the disease through quarantine and to allow treatment to those who may have been exposed before it is too late.
Obviously we should do what we can to search for the pathogen. Obviously we should also try to get the information from the terrorist.
What methods would be appropriate?
Posted by: Morgan at June 17, 2005 10:42 AM (eNuaW)
121
>>>"It scars the torturer and the one tortured in ways I cannot even imagine. What good can come of it?"
How bout saving lives. That's a good that can come of it. And in principle I would be willing to be "scarred" to save my friends and loved ones. Apparently you wouldn't, because you would selfishly choose to preserve your misguided moral purity. Dude, that's a faux high ground from where I'm looking at it. It's a caricature of morality, not real morality. Time for you Libs to grow up into adulthood and leave your childish way behind you.
Posted by: Carlos at June 17, 2005 10:42 AM (8e/V4)
122
OK, you define torture and then I'll let you know if I agree with your definition.
I do not contradict myself: torture is premeditated and not a spur of the moment self-defense act. And Dirty Harry is a movie character, not a real person.
No, it would seem that I am the only sane person on this board.
Posted by: MJM at June 17, 2005 10:50 AM (vCCcy)
123
What would be the reason for torture?
* Punishment, revenge, cruelty or even deterrence -- We can agree that these are probably unwise and hope our policies are not based on these. Is this unclear to leftists?
* To gain information -- Again, as illustrated above, there are cases in which this is necessary.
What are the acceptable degress of torture? I have yet to see how playing loud music or raising the tempature or flushing a piece of paper down a toilet are the same as electorshock, the rack, breaking limbs, etc. (or the same as a gulag!)
Who should be the target of torture? I think everyone agrees that innocent people should never be tortured. But what about those in process of planning mass murder (of possibly millions of people)? What about ununiformed enemy combatants (who technically could be summarily executed)?
Leftists as "nuanced"? Please, they are more black/white manichean than anybody (especially when it comes to defining conservatives/US/Bush/military as Officially Evil).
Posted by: Leftism = Slave Morality at June 17, 2005 10:54 AM (Gi7oA)
124
>>>"No, it would seem that I am the only sane person on this board."
Insane people don't know they're insane.
Posted by: Carlos at June 17, 2005 10:55 AM (8e/V4)
125
I don't need to define torture, as I don't see it any differently from any other less-than-lethal violent act. And such acts are sometimes morally necessary to inflict on other people.
War is premeditated and often leads to death. Is all war always wrong? Arrests by the police (which often use violence) are premeditated, is this always wrong?
The fact Dirty Harry is a movie character is irrelvent. It was being used as example of a possible real world situation.
I doubt both your sanity and your ability to piece together a concept. Your specialty seems to be barfing up cliches and abstract leftist talking points.
Posted by: Leftism = Slave Morality at June 17, 2005 11:04 AM (Gi7oA)
126
"And Dirty Harry is a movie character, not a real person."
MJM: Thanks for clarifying this. But one may look at something "not real" to prove a point or to get people thinking about an issue. It's more real than a hypothetical situation, no? Answer this question if you've seen the film. Do you believe the detective was wrong to get the information that way?
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at June 17, 2005 11:04 AM (x+5JB)
127
Morgan,
A very nice scenario you've got there. But is flawed. When a pathogen has been released in the environment you will not find out about it until it is too late. Because a terrorist wants to succeed so he won't tell you/me/us about it until we know it has happened. In a large city the population is higly mobile and the best you can hope for is containing the pathogen in the city.
You cannot stop someone who is determined to die, and he won't help you by telling you what he will do ( no neon signs pointing to the terrorist).
We could play this game for all eternity, you crafting scenario's until I agree that I am tempted to torture the suspect.
But all the scenario's would need 1 thing: time.
How much time does it take to break someone? And will he speak the truth when broken?
And remember the motivation of the terrorist is:
every moment I hang on, I'm killing someone else.
Posted by: MJM at June 17, 2005 11:22 AM (vCCcy)
128
MJM: There are no guarantees. But one, in that position as interrogator, has to try.
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at June 17, 2005 11:32 AM (x+5JB)
129
MJM:
It seems that you have now decided that torture is always wrong because it never works (produces no information, false information, or anything it does produce necessarily comes too late to do any good) and/or it is impossible to catch a person who has information that might allow us to save lives.
If these things are true, you are right. Ill-treatment of any kind to obtain information is never justifiable, because it never, ever works.
At least your resort to these fallback rationalizations indicates that you see some circumstances under which some things that some people call torture would be justified - it's just that you've asserted that these circumstances can never exist.
So that's where we disagree, and that's where I'll leave it. Nice chatting with you.
Posted by: Morgan at June 17, 2005 11:39 AM (eNuaW)
130
" But one, in that position as interrogator, has to try."
What, and spite his precious ego? Much easier to say "all torture is wrong always" and pat yourself on the back as "morally superior" even if it leads to your own slavery or death or hurts those you claim to love.
Rememeber: If the terrorist is cocain addict and you deprive him of his drugs (a painful process) it is torturing him, which makes you the same as Hitler. If you stick a terrorist behind bars and he says "I hate being confined, it's torture to be here!" then you are worse than Pol Pot.
Posted by: Leftism = Slave Morality at June 17, 2005 11:41 AM (Gi7oA)
131
MJM,
your Liberals beliefs have all the trappings of a religion.
Posted by: Carlos at June 17, 2005 11:42 AM (8e/V4)
132
It never works and/or it is impossible to catch a person? Based on what evidence?
History is filled with thousands (possibly millions) of people who talked to authorities under pressure and gave information leading to arrests/captures.
US detectives and DAs do this on a daily basis.
It is insane and ignorent to pretend otherwise.
Please.
Posted by: Leftism = Slave Morality at June 17, 2005 11:46 AM (Gi7oA)
133
How do we really know kos was ex military? Just because he says so? Lots of liberals do that. My bootcamp was rougher then what they are enduring....
Posted by: M Evan at June 17, 2005 11:58 AM (xYQ4W)
134
Notice to visiting leftards.
Those of you who have come here from kos or whatever piece-of-garbage, sedition-spouting waste of cyberspace you normally inhabit take note of the following: We, the people who feel that the security of the nation comes before the comfort of murderes, have had it with your crap. You hate George Bush more than Osama bin Laden. You think worse of conservatives than you do of terrorists. You would see us lose the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan just so that you could use it against the GOP. We are sick of your lies, your slander, your sedition, and your treason.
One day, maybe soon, we could get hit again with another terrorist attack. The probability is very high, and you all seem bent on hobbling those whose job it is to protect us. If that happens, be warned, it won't go well for you. We are many, we are pissed off, and we are capable of acting. If you continue to side with our enemies, you will be treated as enemies, because to many of us, there is no difference between a terrorist and those who give them aid and comfort.
If we have another 9/11, don't go out with your anti-American protest signs, because I think that if you do, you might not like what follows. This isn't a threat, it's an observation. We've had it with your crap. You are like a sickness that plagues this country, and if you don't amend your ways, you will be purged. If you can't bring yourselves to love your country more than some twisted fascist ideology, then you should leave and go someplace where your views are more in line with the mainstream, like North Korea.
The clock is ticking down on you, it's time to decide which side you're on.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at June 17, 2005 12:49 PM (0yYS2)
135
Did you hear Durbin try to defend his despicable rant today? He said the Nazi, Soviet, Pol Pot references were appropriate, given the "context" of the FBI memo. Wow! Imagine how different history would have been if the worst things the Nazis, Soviets, or Pol Pot ever did were the things described in the memo.
Posted by: Jim O'Sullivan at June 17, 2005 01:06 PM (6+o02)
136
Morgan,
No, torture is just inherently "wrong".
Because I noticed that this had no effect I described why torture doesn't work.
Just take a look at 9/11: No terrorist on the radar, until it was too late to stop them.
----
And another quote: Fear is the mindkiller.
Posted by: MJM at June 17, 2005 01:21 PM (gUdrU)
137
How about this for a quote:
MJM = Slave Morality
Posted by: Leftism = Slave Morality at June 17, 2005 01:30 PM (Gi7oA)
138
Nothing constructive to say huh?
You are a slave to fear, bow before your Master.
Posted by: MJM at June 17, 2005 01:37 PM (gUdrU)
139
You are projecting. It is you who is driven by fear. Look how you fear to answer my questions? Look how you dodge my arguments? Shameful.
Posted by: Leftism = Slave Morality at June 17, 2005 01:48 PM (Gi7oA)
140
How dare you, Senator Durbin? How dare you compare conditions at Guantamo Bay with the Nazi death camps, the Soviet gulag or Pol Pot's killing fields? How many millions of people have died at Guantanamo Bay? How many total? ZERO. The very comparison shows a colossal ignorance of history. Lavrenti Beria and Reinhard Heydrich would look up at you from whatever circle of Hell they currently occupy, ask, "How many millions of prisoners have you killed?" and when you told them "Zero, but we made some of them VERY uncomfortable," they would laugh at you for the rank amateur that you are.
Senator Durbin needs to visit the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C. and maybe make a road trip to Cambodia to visit the museum there that commemorates the two million people killed by Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge. He needs to look at the pictures from the liberation of the Nazi death camps by Americans at the end of World War II, he needs to re-read Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's works, and then he needs to ask himself the question: What do all of these have in common? The answer: In every case, the prisoners were systematically being starved to death. Starvation is the tool in every tyrant's toolbox. Contrast with the prisoners at Gitmo, who actually have GAINED weight while in captivity. They are probably better fed, better housed and receiving better medical care than they ever have in their lives. And then there's another question: How many people in Cuba, outside of Guantanamo Bay, even HAVE air conditioning at all? How many of our soldiers in Iraq? Damn few.
Finally, Senator Durbin needs to remember exactly who these prisoners are. One of them is the man who was believed to be the "20th hijacker" from 9/11, who was turned away by an alert Customs agent. The jihadis at Guantanamo Bay would slit Senator Durbin's throat as soon as look at him, and would ululate "Allahu akbar!' while they did it. Indeed, if not for the heroic actions of the passengers of Flight 93 on 9/11, jihadis just like those at Gitmo would have flown that plane into either the White House or the Capitol Building where Senator Durbin works. Frankly, on 9/11 and for about year thereafter, I would have had no problem if the guards at Gitmo had repeatedly Tasered the testicles of every jihadi there to get them to talk.
These prisoners are not legitimate prisoners of war covered by the Geneva Convention; they were in civilian clothes and as such could have been shot out of hand when they were captured. The fact that we didn't do that shows more loudly than Senator Durbin's windy speech that we most assuredly are not like the Nazis, the Soviets or the Khmer Rouge. And consider that many of them have been repatriated and of those, about a dozen have been recaptured, with others doubtlessly killed fighting against us. If anything, we have been too kind to them.
One last word for the Senator: Don't be such a Dick, Durbin.
Posted by: Clyde at June 17, 2005 01:51 PM (T2PVS)
141
Oh I see,
you were equating criminals with terrorists and interrogation with torture. And you actually expect an answer?
Here goes: No amount of torture will prevent a terrorist act from happening.
Posted by: MJM at June 17, 2005 01:57 PM (gUdrU)
142
Perhaps it is time that we all take another look at the beheading videos again. I can't set a link in the comments section, but I have a link to correct section in Young Nationalist on my blog (just click on Lumpy below and look in the first story).
MJM, have you ever had the opportunity to view these videos? If not, please take a few moments out of your sheltered life to do so. While viewing, it is helpful to have Dick Durban's comments as well some pictures from Abu Gharib nearby for comparison. I am sure that you spent hours agonizing over the Abu photos and cursing your own country, so thirty minutes of your time should not be asking too much.
Let us all know what you think.
Posted by: Lumpy at June 17, 2005 02:04 PM (mkMY1)
143
MJM:
I was equating nothing. It is a fact of reality that people talk during interrogations (under pressure) and that this often leads to arrests/captures. What you call "torture" is what is called "pressure."
So quit dodging and give me an arguement otherwise. Provide evidence that nobody in history has ever cracked under pressure and nobody has ever been caught as a consequence.
Posted by: Leftism = Slave Morality at June 17, 2005 02:05 PM (Gi7oA)
144
MJM,
Libs are TERRIFIED of not being approved of. You crave to be liked and approved of. We conservatives couldn't care less.
Posted by: Carlos at June 17, 2005 02:10 PM (8e/V4)
145
Lumpy,
I don't need to see the beheading video. I hope you'll find the people that made the tape and kill them.
Besides not being a Liberal I'm also not an US citizen. This does give me some perspective and objectivity.
Posted by: MJM at June 17, 2005 02:20 PM (gUdrU)
146
>>>"Besides not being a Liberal I'm also not an US citizen."
So then why should we give a flying fuck what you think? My god, don't you have a country of your own to criticize? Go criticize your own damn country. Americans are going to do what we believe is in the best interests of our country, and we're not going to take counsel from craven and cowardly Frenchies and foreigners such as yourself who only wish to see America fall to its knees.
Posted by: Carlos at June 17, 2005 02:30 PM (8e/V4)
147
Yup,
Torture is in the best interest of your country?
Maybe we don't want to see you crash and burn?
Yeah, you don't need any advice, you're doing just FINE. Never mind that your president LIED to you, never mind that your bleeding to death in Iraq, never mind the deficit.
Unilateral Self-Destruction ;>
Posted by: MJM at June 17, 2005 02:37 PM (gUdrU)
148
MJM,
a little bit of torture would have worked wonders on Mohammed Atta before 9/11. It would have averted the attack and the subsequent invasions of the middle east.
An unlikely scenario you say? Perhaps. But it just goes to show you that a little bit of torture CAN be in our best interests.
This is such a rational point, I can only assume your politics are not rational, but religious. You are a Leftwing fundamentalist.
Posted by: Carlos at June 17, 2005 02:41 PM (8e/V4)
149
MJM:
You would be better off cutting and pasting from here:
www.spinline.net/cy/lefterator.pl
Too bad I wasted my time attempting a discussion with a Left-Bot.
Posted by: Leftism = Slave Morality at June 17, 2005 02:41 PM (Gi7oA)
150
>>>"Besides not being a Liberal I'm also not an US citizen."
Lumpy,
"not being a Liberal" is code for Leftist. When you think someone's a Liberal but he denies it, assume he's a Leftist that believes Libs are too namby pamby. I've usually found that to be the case.
Posted by: Carlos at June 17, 2005 02:44 PM (8e/V4)
151
Carlos,
Still the question remains: How much TIME does it require to break someone? If you had Atta 12 hours before 9/11 and tortured him, could you've prevented it? 24 hours? 36 hours? 48 hours?
Your not rational, believe me, you're the person whose ok with torture, remember?
Left-Bot, Right-Bot, which leads me to another piece of advice: replace the democrats and republicans with new and more political parties. Could be refreshing for you and quite possibly could get you out of your trenches.
Posted by: MJM at June 17, 2005 02:55 PM (gUdrU)
152
It is ironic that today's "liberals" are not very liberal.
Liberalism used to mean "individual freedom" - now it means socialists (just as "progressive" means regressive and reactionary).
Posted by: L at June 17, 2005 02:56 PM (Gi7oA)
153
How much time depends on the circumstances. But it is still possible to extract information...and you have YET to prove otherwise.
YOU'RE not being very rational and English must be your second language.
Nor do you understand the two-party system.
Posted by: Leftism = Slave Morality at June 17, 2005 03:05 PM (Gi7oA)
154
Let's see MJM, you won't/can't define torture, but you know it is inherently wrong, though homicide isn't, but you won't/can't explain your reasoning.
You are certain that torture (which you can't define) can not extract useful information, though you won't/can't reply to criticism of that notion.
You know that "no amount of torture will prevent a terrorist act from happening", which, given that you are certain that no useful information can be gained through its use, would seem to be a necessary conclusion (even if we don't know what torture is). Albeit one that rests on an assertion that has been challenged, a challenge to which you won't/can't reply.
You feel that tactics intended to pressure a person into disclosing information in the course of an interrogation of a suspected criminal can not be equated with the use of tactics intended to pressure a person into disclosing information in the course of an interrogation of a suspected terrorist. You won't/can't explain why this is, though it would seem to rely on terrorists not being people in the same way that criminals are.
You also seem to think that if it wasn't possible to obtain information from people whom you did not have them in custody, it must, therefore, be impossible to obtain information from those you do. Or maybe it's impossible to get information about someone else. Or something.
Okay. All very, um... Avoidant? Unsubstantive? Illogical?
Let me leave you with a challenge. You stated: "No amount of torture will prevent a terrorist act from happening." I believe that interrogation of terrorists in custody might extract information that leads to the prevention of such an act by others. Torture (whatever that means - let's say holding someone in a cold room) might be more likely to extract that information.
Here is your challenge - to answer a question:
Where am I wrong?
Posted by: Morgan at June 17, 2005 03:05 PM (eNuaW)
155
>>>"Your not rational, believe me, you're the person whose ok with torture, remember?"
You may call me "immoral", and that's fine. But that's a religious statement, and in no way does it make me irrational. We've all given you reasons why it is rational, but you've offered only platitudes for why it's not, i.e., it's not "nice." Do you see how the secular Left has replaced traditional religion with one of their own creation? It's so obvious. You don't believe things rationally and you adhere blindly to platitudes as if they were holy scripture.
>>>"Still the question remains: How much TIME does it require to break someone? If you had Atta 12 hours before 9/11 and tortured him, could you've prevented it? 24 hours? 36 hours? 48 hours?"
That depends on how effective the torture was. Christina Aguilera songs probably would not have done the trick. But putting his balls in a vice might have worked wonders.
Posted by: Carlos at June 17, 2005 03:11 PM (8e/V4)
156
"Christina Aguilera songs probably would not have done the trick."
I would write the word "Allah" on a napkin and flush it down the toilet. Or maybe "Bob."
OH the humanity! What a Nazi I am for flushing a napkin down the drain! It's a gulag!
Posted by: NUANCED at June 17, 2005 03:15 PM (Gi7oA)
157
Morgan,
Because I felt that differing meanings of torture were in use I asked someone on this board to give me their version of what torture means, that was never given but if you are so desperate for it:
Torture is the infliction of severe physical or psychological pain as an expression of cruelty, a means of intimidation, deterrent or punishment, or as a tool for the extraction of information or confessions.
Why torture cannot yield useful information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture#Incrimination_of_innocent_people
This is so basic that I thought it needed no clarification, my mistake.
The interrogation of a criminal and the torturing of a terrorist is not the same thing. Different term with different semantics are used. Thus again, this is so obvious I thought I did not need to clarify, my mistake (again)
Concerning the new scenario: Welcome to the wonderful world of adaptive terrorism, your terrorist in the cold room, wonÂ’t break before his terrorist cell buddies discover his absence. And because terror strikes are probably cell structured and probably have redundancies incorporated into them the attack just goes ahead, even if you manage to dismantle one cell.
So in conclusion: you tortured, the attack happened anyway, maybe the body count was less but you prevented nothing.
Posted by: MJM at June 17, 2005 03:35 PM (gUdrU)
158
Carlos,
Immoral behaviour is a sign of an irrational mind.
Posted by: MJM at June 17, 2005 03:51 PM (gUdrU)
159
I don't have time to read all the comments here, so apologies if I'm repeating anyone's points. I have just a few points to express.
1. I'm a liberal, and quite stridetently anti-Bush.
2. You are clearly right, and Kos clearly is being stupid and partisan.
3. The nazi-comparison Durbin made is fairly par for the course in political rhetoric. I don't like Durbin's use, but, let's not forget this is a bipartisan failing.
Posted by: Michael R at June 17, 2005 03:53 PM (7NWu1)
160
Your definition is horribly flawed (problaby because it was lifted from an online message board).
How are physical or psychological the same? If I insult your mother (whom you love) am I torturing you? Define "severe" in a reality where perceptions are subjective?
Your weaselly dodge of the interrogation issue is pathetic. Interrogation is an action, regardless if it is used on a criminal or terrorist. Don't bother trying to blame your own lack of understanding on "semantics."
You won't answer, because you don't think for yourself.
Your :example" is completely stupid. It is a fact of reality that humans are not omniciant or oppnipitant. Your "example" assumes the opposite.
Posted by: Leftism = Slave Morality at June 17, 2005 03:54 PM (Gi7oA)
161
"let's not forget this is a bipartisan failing."
So Durbin is the VICTIM here?
Wow.
Posted by: Leftism = Slave Morality at June 17, 2005 03:56 PM (Gi7oA)
162
Michael R,
my hat is off to you.
Posted by: Carlos at June 17, 2005 03:58 PM (8e/V4)
163
At least I give a definition, you didn't remember?
consult a dictionary: interrogation does not equal torture.
I answer, I think and I don't follow the partyline, I haven't yet had the pleasure of you doing the same.
it's omnipotent, and some careful planning can take you far. Terrorism is quite simple, all it takes is an immoral person and some hardware, or boxcutters will suffice in a pinch.
mmm torture is immoral too, the US must then be turning into a terrorist spawning ground
Posted by: MJM at June 17, 2005 04:05 PM (gUdrU)
164
L=SM
No, please be more charitable. I simply meant to keep in mind this is a problem in our national political discourse on both sides of the aisle. *IF* anyone were to think "it's only the other side," then such blindness only exacerbates the ineffectualtiy of the debate. I think recognizing this as a common failing of both parties allows us a common ground.
Posted by: Michael R at June 17, 2005 04:07 PM (7NWu1)
165
MJM:
That's roughly the definition I posted last night from the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.
Now if we define "severe", we'll be on our way. Difficult to do, isn't it. Maybe examples would work:
Dripping nitric acid on a person bound to a chair: Severe
Attaching electrodes to a person's genetalia and turning on the current: Severe
Crushing fingers in a vise: Severe
Christina Aguilera: Not severe
Hot/cold rooms: Not severe
Stress positions: Not severe
Your link regarding incrimination of innocent people under duress is not pursuasive. Of course people may say things that aren't true in an attempt to get out of the situation. They may also provide real information. Even if I have to put 10 people under surveillance to find the one that is really plotting, I'm a lot better off.
You still have not explained why the interrogation of a criminal and the torturing of a terrorist are not the same thing. You've stated that they are different, but have not explained why a terrorist won't talk under pressure but a criminal will.
How do you know how quickly my terrorist in a cold room will break? He may talk in an hour, he may not. Your entire "time" argument sounds like a rationale for more severe techniques - you know, the ones that actually qualify as torture - not a reason not to use them.
And what is the artificial time limit on these things? Terrorist attacks aren't generally planned in a day (at least, not by al-Qaeda). If it takes a month to get him to talk, but he names names, that's a group that is out of commission as a terrorist cell. Maybe a coordinating contact (you know, the guy who you think is probably around to tell the second cell that the first one was compromised), or a moneyman, too. Maybe their records with names and contacts of other terrorists.
Take out the terrorists, and you take out future terrorist acts. Simple, really.
So I didn't have to torture, though Senator Durbin might call it so, I rolled-up an entire network of terrorists, and I prevented any number of future attacks.
Posted by: Morgan at June 17, 2005 04:09 PM (eNuaW)
166
No, you cut and pasted something from a message board.
"Torture" is subjective, interrogation is a real action.
You follow a party-line so much I think you are a parody or satire (hope I didn't spoil the joke).
Too bad you didn't use a dictionary for the rest of my post, or else you would know what "omnipotent" means.
But thanks for the "non-partisan" US bashing. It shows how open-minded you are (which is not very).
Posted by: Leftism = Slave Morality at June 17, 2005 04:09 PM (Gi7oA)
167
Michael R: Understood. You are being all fair and balenced and all that. Good for you. Maybe you can bring the Party of JKF and Scoop Jackson back to life.
Posted by: Leftism = Slave Morality at June 17, 2005 04:14 PM (Gi7oA)
168
I didn't leave the asinine comment above that is attributed to me. It was somebody from your side, folks. A sign of the desperation felt on the right these days, perhaps?
Posted by: The Liberal Avenger at June 17, 2005 04:50 PM (kgBuS)
169
Morgan,
hot-cold rooms: define hot and cold?
stress-positions: how long?
I can't believe I actually have to tell you what what is but here goes.
Interrogation: not usually associated with severe pain
Torture: associated with pain, curel and unusual punishment.
criminal vs terrorist: I believe we have a little misunderstanding, in your previous scenario I highlighted why a terrorist would not talk, in this particular case his motivation was to increase the body count.
taking out the terrorists reduces future terror strikes? Look at Iraq, those suicide bombers just keep coming don't they? their taking out themselves at a rapid pace but they don't seem to run out of volunteers.
let's forget about the artificial time limit and answer me this. Has the torture prevented anything at all that we know of?
--- L-SM
Omnipotence (literally, "all power") is the power to do absolutely anything. This trait is usually attributed only to God. Theists hold that examples of God's omnipotence include Creation and miracles.
I haven't bashed the US, nor do I feel a particular need to. (if you really want me too I'll give it a try though ;->)
Posted by: MJM at June 17, 2005 05:32 PM (gUdrU)
170
Can't trackback, so just letting you know I've linked as well
Posted by: urthshu at June 17, 2005 05:36 PM (2qJi3)
171
Define hot and cold - sorry, since the thread was prompted by Senator Durbin's statements, I assumed you were familiar with them and would recognize the reference. Hot = "probably well over 100 degrees" (that's actually from the FBI report, Durbin apparently left out the "probably"). Cold = air conditioning turned down so that a barefoot man shivers. Stress positions - not specified by the good senator.
Interrogation and torture are independent concepts. Torture is something that may, or may not, occur during the course of interrogation. As are any techniques that fall short of torture.
Re: terrorists not talking. You've indicated why a terrorist won't want to talk, but criminals also don't generally want to talk. They talk during interrogations, which include techniques to put them under mental and physical stress, and they talk to get out of the situation. Why wouldn't terrorists be subject to the same technique?
These techniques exist on a continuum from less severe to more severe. There are two questions I'm interested in. The first question is "where do you draw the line?" Saying that torture is not allowed, even offering a definition that specifies that torture causes "severe" pain, without providing some kind of specification regarding where "severe" sits is minimally informative.
The second is "do the justifiable techniques vary with the situation?" This is more-or-less the same question as "Is it ever justifiable to torture someone?", though you could have a hybrid system in which the justifiable line slides up to, but never beyond, the "severe" line.
You seem to be arguing that the "torture/not torture" cutoff = the "severe/not severe" cutoff = the "justifiable/unjustifiable" cutoff in all situations, or for the hybrid, in which "severe" = "torture" and is the upper limit for justifiable (I'd say probably for the hybrid - I feel comfortable asserting that most people would say that techniques that are justifiably used with hardened criminals and terrorist suspects are not justifiably used when trying to determine whether a child threw a spitball).
So now you're king, and I'd like to know what techniques I can use in the course of interrogating suspected terrorists. Or common criminals. But I'm afraid to shine a light in his eyes, because it might be called torture.
Does taking out terrorists prevent future terrorist strikes? Of course. Those terrorists will never strike. That others do hardly invalidates the point.
As for whether torture has prevented anything that we know of, I don't know that there has been any torture to prevent anything. I certainly am not privy to the information gained during interrogations of detainees.
I do know that techniques that fall on what I would call the non-torture side of the line can be effective in eliciting truthful confessions and other information, and it is reasonable to think that more severe techniques, by increasing the motivation to get out of the situation, would be even more effective.
I also know that networks have been rolled-up much as I described, as when Abu Farraj al-Libbi was captured and interrogated in Pakistan in May. I don't know what techniques were used in the interrogation.
Posted by: Morgan at June 17, 2005 06:23 PM (eNuaW)
172
Great job, Rusty; thanks for the reminders.
Posted by: The Sanity Inspector at June 17, 2005 06:49 PM (Y99DR)
173
hmm... not real torture. nice argument. what about the hundred or so suspicious deaths at US military prisons, or the two or three extremely well-documented cases where US soldiers killed perfectly innocent civilians in the interrogation process? I guess that's not real murder. If the people in Gitmo are guilty of something, prosecute them - charge them with a crime - make their names public - allow outside communication, humanitarian aid. It is my belief that most of the poor souls at Gitmo have nothing whatsoever to do with international terrorism and are essentially political prisoners being tortured to extract information they simply don't have.
PROVE ME WRONG. prosecute or at least charge them with crimes, make their names public and allow them to build a defense. Detaining people secretly and indefinitely is EXACTLY the sort of thing the Nazis and Russians did. Aren't we supposed to be better than that?
Posted by: money mo at June 17, 2005 07:03 PM (0LopM)
174
>>>"PROVE ME WRONG."
money mo,
we don't have to prove JACK to you. It's you who's got to prove something, and so far you've got SQUAT-- just rumour and innuendo. And that's exactly why your side constantly has to fall back on hyperbole, because the simple facts are the matter are so boring and mundane. Gulag schmuuulag.
Posted by: Carlos at June 17, 2005 07:51 PM (8e/V4)
175
Dear Senator Durbin,
Let's play a game of pretend. Let's say you are my prisoner and you have information about the enemy I need. I am trying to make your situation stressful enough that you will answer my questions about Al Quida. Lives are at stake and I need to get answers. However, I'm a compassionate interrogator so you can have your choice of stressors. Just answer these questions.
1. I have a set of bolt cutters and a pair of women's panties. You have your choice of answers. Shall I remove your fingers one by one with the bolt cutters or would you prefer to be humiliated by putting the panties on your head?
2. I have a bundle of sharpened bamboo slivers and the thermostat in your cell. Would you prefer to have slivers placed under your finger and toe nails one at a time or to have the temperature in your cell turned down to 50 degrees?
3. I have a rubber hose tipped with a lead ball and I also have a tape recorder with rock music on it. Would you rather I methodically beat you on your legs and arms with the rubber hose or play very loud rock music to you all night long?
4. I have dental forceps and a cloth hood with a small stool. Would you rather I pull your teeth one by one or put the hood over your head and make you sit on the stool with your hands chained to an eyebolt in the floor?
5. I have a dull sword and an iron digging bar. Would you rather I use the sword to slowly decapitate you or let you stand for several hours holding the digging bar across your shoulders?
I'm pretty sure I know what your answers would be, but I just wanted to put the questions to you so we could clear the air.
Sincerely,
A Taxpayer
Posted by: Jimmy J at June 17, 2005 10:06 PM (tko+5)
176
So KOS is a bad ass because he was in the military, huh? I'll bet that POS was in charge of peeling potatoes at the back line.
If KOS believes it is his freedom of speech to diss the real military, then I will gladly show him my freedom of expression by thumping his pre-frontal cortex with a bat, given the chance.
Posted by: BT at June 17, 2005 10:16 PM (0kiXY)
177
mjm,l=sm,carlos ... stop going in circles.
There are 2 continuums: procedures and need.
I think we of the non-liberal/left can agree that inducing ouch-or-above is wrong unless it has some high chance to save 1 or more lives. We happen to count capture-of-a-terror-cell-leader as 'saving lives'. The left does not agree.
(The _left_ thinks anything done for a good cause (USSR, socialism, anti-USA) is fair game and that nothing the US ever does is beyond criticism, even saving muslims in Bosnia. _Liberals_ aren't that extreme (and don't ignore the USSR's evil, etc) and just wish the world was more utopian.)
So the need continuum ranges from preventing future attacks that have not yet even been planned by near incompetents at the bottom of aQ all the way up to a post-US-city-nuking scenario of the hunt to find-the-nuke-factory or find-the-next-bomb.
The procedures continuum is partially-linear:
* holding in a jail cell (no more)
* jail with no communication, long duration
* temp / light / noise stress (induce exhaustion)
* food/water removal, short duration
* cramp-stress (non-damaging positions)
* gulag-type overwork
* low damage stress (ligament strain)
* food/water removal, long duration
* high damage stress (things torn or broken)
* fast trauma (beatings, whipping, etc)
* slow trauma (fingernails pulled out, pliers)
* electricity @ sensitive areas (gonads, tongue)
* drowning-revival-drowning-revival ... repeat
* witnessing damage/rape of spouse/child
* amputation, gunshots, stabbing, etc
And partially non-linear:
* religious reprogramming (wahibism = distortion)
* religious torment (pigs, naked jew fem guards)
* embarassment (naked pyramids, genital comments)
* mind-altering-drugs (relaxants thru hypnotics)
* fear (2 US cities nuked=1.3B muslims die)
* education (islam stunted mideast development)
* lies and distortions,interrogator oddities,etc
As far as the civilized world is concerned, anything on the linear scale above cramp-positions for exhaustion is generally wrong, maybe excepting for WMD scenarios.
I believe that going above exhaustion-inducing is counterproductive _especially_ when you _need_ an answer, like in the WMD scenario ... just skip straight to drugs, Chem-war-treaties-be-damned.
(This is most likely why the CIA never registers their prisoners with anyone.)
I uncomfortably agree with the libs who point out that WMD-planting terrorists will lie after holding out as long as possible ... they will be trained to simulate accurate information release, further delaying finding that second nuke or the factory/supplier/pathway. (Therefore go straight to Israeli/Soviet type drugs regardless if there is still an intact mind left when you are done.)
(BTW: it is safe to bet that we are doing this with the CIA capturees like Khalid Sheik Mohammad and anyone else at/near their level.)
Now for the flip side of that argument:
WHY DO WE CAPTURE ILLEGAL COMBATANTS THAT THE GENEVA CONVENTION INDICATES ARE ELIGIBLE FOR IMMEDIATE EXECUTION?
(sorry for shouting)
There are 2 reasons:
* compassion (some army guys still want to be the good guys or we just cannot find an excuse to double-tap them in the skull)
* information that capturees might provide
Liberals / Leftists: be aware that your campaign against the most kind prisons in the history of warfare has certainly induced many in the fighting forces to STOP TAKING PRISONERS.
Think about it ... if we cannot store these aQ militants for the duration because of our fifth-columnists, and noone wants to fight them a second time, the low-enders won't be captured alive.
Just like elephants: if you want more of something (live prisoners, elephants, cattle), make the target valuable to those who would maintain them. Cows are valuable to farmers, elephants are not, therefore except for recent elephant-tourism, elephants were/are hunted nearly to extinction, where as we have insane numbers of cows. If elephants could be managably farmed for tusk ivory, especially if they could be sheared like sheep and be induced to regrow, Africa would be overwhelmed by elephants. (offtopic: Oddly enough, Zimbabwe has an excess elephant problem ... and no live farmers (Mugabe=leftist/socialist/racist)).
Anyway, if you liberals/leftists make capturing and keeping prisoners valueless or of negative worth, the anti-Jihadi forces will simply stop capturing anyone not of obvious value.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Please try to keep this discourse less circular and more useful.
Anyone high enough in aQ etc with useful information probably will lie after holding out to pain, so skip straight to drugs.
Anyone susceptible to reveal truth to pain probably knows nothing particularly useful anyway and since the libs/leftists will make a fuss over their captivity, just don't bother to capture them.
Anyone indeterminate, just keep them awake for 72 hours and listen to what they babble about: kids, wives (plural), work, family, allah ... let them go home. Jihad, Semtex, AK-47s, bin-Laden, Zarqawi, aQ, infidels, Wahibbi-ite dogma, lock them up for the duration or hand them over to their home country for long-term storage. Maybe try to convert them by counter-preaching.
Posted by: Other at June 17, 2005 10:24 PM (4146Y)
178
Is it too late to blame the Jews for all this?
Posted by: Wine-aholic at June 17, 2005 10:41 PM (hL7po)
179
MJM,
I was born in Canada - does that give me a different perspective? What does not being a US citizen have to do with any of this discussion? The participants in this discussion fall into two groups: naive, crazy liberals and everyone else.
Posted by: Lumpy at June 17, 2005 10:57 PM (zzzPq)
180
I apologize, because I'm sure this was mentioned in a comment above, but I have to take issue with one thing. Calling for violence against Kos is just wrong. I agree with you that his comparison is ludicrous, but what makes us better than the fascists we're fighting is that he has the right to express his ludicrous opinion.
Again, I'm sure that's a sentiment that's been expressed already. I'd just like to add my two cents.
Posted by: Robert at June 17, 2005 11:46 PM (M3g5N)
181
Why is it when the leftards show up, the viagra spammers are never far behind? They seem to run in packs. For some reason. Like they're associated. Or already have a relationship. For some reason...
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at June 18, 2005 08:34 AM (0yYS2)
182
The mystery poster known only as "L", hit the nail squarely on the head when he(she?) wrote:
"It is ironic that today's "liberals" are not very liberal."
"Liberalism used to mean "individual freedom" - now it means socialists (just as "progressive" means regressive and reactionary)."
It is all the tactic of the Big Lie. They twist every word to mean its opposite, as Orwell pointed out in Animal Farm and 1984. Freedom is slavery, etc.. This is why they're harping on "torture". If they're calling it torture, it must not be bad at all. If they were calling it "reeducation", though, you could be assured there would be fingernails pulled out and jumper cables on the sensitive bits. Liberals are lying, treasonous cowards who support terrorism 100% regardless of anything they might say. One needs no further proof than to look at their actions and compare them to their fair words. Whereas we hope for the death of Osama, they hope for the death of Bush. Doesn't take a genius to figure out whose side they're on. Their time is coming soon though. Real soon.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at June 18, 2005 10:05 AM (0yYS2)
183
sigh said:
" Where do you draw the line between acceptable methods and torture (or abuse -- I can't say that I take a great deal of comfort in saying that we don't torture, we abuse), and how does that distinction reflect on "the kind of people we are"?
Posted by: sigh at June 17, 2005 12:33 AM "
You may not take a great deal of comfort in telling the difference between torture and abuse, but you sure as hell would if you were actually subjected to torture, and not the mild discomforts some terrorists experience at Gitmo.
Posted by: Les Nessman at June 18, 2005 06:54 PM (XQxrI)
184
It is a strange sort of torture when the "torturee" is not actually hurt!
Posted by: Rick B. at June 18, 2005 08:56 PM (0IqSw)
185
It's a strange sort of concentration camp where the inmates come out weighing more than they went in, with their teeth fixed and any medical problems they might have had cared for!
(BTW, if you're using Moveable Type for this blog, MT Blacklist does WONDERS to keep the spammers at bay.)
J.
Posted by: JLawson at June 18, 2005 10:59 PM (ApmN8)
186
Isn't it funny how the ACLU thinks Gitmo is torture, but pedophilia isn't?
Posted by: NYgirl at June 19, 2005 11:53 AM (JEAUq)
187
You may want to add that the purpose of the iron maiden was to pierce the flesh of the victim, but not where there was a vital organ. Doing this to the victim would keep him or her in agony for a long period of time before eventualy dying.
Posted by: Nigel at June 19, 2005 05:51 PM (Ih2LO)
188
NYgirl observed:
"Isn't it funny how the ACLU thinks Gitmo is torture, but pedophilia isn't?"
Yeah, the things that wacky leftards are willing to defend and the things they find offensive only serve to illustrate that they suffer as a group from some sort of mental disorder.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at June 20, 2005 12:49 PM (0yYS2)
189
I've read Kos. I've read this.
Kos says, essentially, that torture in any form is as bad if the US does it as if Saddam does it.
You choose to split hairs, jumping up and down with 'graphic evidence' to show that Saddam's torture is much, much worse than American torture.
Lucky for Americans that they live in a country with nice torture, instead of nasty Iraqi torture. Sure, it's not nitric acid dripped on your head, but you'll find that in most American states, anybody who locked a dog in a car and the temperature climbed over 100F would be arrested and charged with cruelty.
Yep. Good thing it's only nice torture in the good old US of A.
Posted by: Flinthart at June 20, 2005 11:20 PM (H//Y9)
190
Gotaa knock off the torturing, Knuckles! http://www.markfiore.com/animation/knuckles.html
Posted by: BUSH LIES - SOLDIERS DIE at June 21, 2005 02:50 AM (FV4oJ)
191
"How many more lies.. treat me the way you wanna do..."
Beatings will continue until prisoner morale improves? Sounds like an advert for Al Qaeda recruiters! "Look what they're doing, join the Jihad!
Get your revenge on America while the scandal is hot!!"
Posted by: Downing Street Memo at June 21, 2005 07:12 AM (ScqM8)
192
All you rightwingnuts need to go to the nearest recruiter and sig your lazy asses up for a four year hitch in the Army as an MOS 11 Bravo, and then, only then may you talk shit about this war.
Posted by: Aging Veteran at June 27, 2005 05:07 PM (aHbua)
193
Jesus, you're stupid. Kos was saying that torture isn't any less bad because it's done by americans - he's
not saying that what we've done is as bad as what Saddam did.
Wipe the drool off your chin and give it a reread, sport.
Posted by: jpe at July 25, 2005 11:54 AM (AoyVe)
194
Just surfed in. Great site! You're doing good work, guys! Thanks
http://posters.mail15.com
posters
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195
Great site!! Just surfed on in and stopped for longer. Think to put it in my bookmarks.
http://glasses.mail15.com
glasses
Posted by: Nobow at August 19, 2005 08:34 PM (7kgWz)
196
http://onlinetraining.active-community.org/idcynyaju/ chokeddiscoverthud
Posted by: wetness at August 28, 2005 10:53 PM (xaj0E)
197
http://zocor.rosegardenhome.org/je3svrbpb/ baseinchesmelted
Posted by: tract at September 03, 2005 09:02 AM (ahd8V)
198
That is ABSOLUTELY disgusting. It makes me sick to see those poor people. I think the one that was really horrible was the little boy. HE WAS A LITTLE BOY!!!
Posted by: Sierra at October 25, 2005 09:07 AM (cRFPc)
199
You can put your biased All-American, blinding patriotic views and beliefs on this issue. However torture is still torture. It quite simply defined as: Subjection to great physical or mental pain/anguish as a means of punishment or coercion. We have done this to the Iraqi people for almost 2 decades now. More over, the question that should be raised is whether or not such practice, by not only Saddam HusseinÂ’s former regime but also by America, is viable.
Amnesty International has labeled Camp X-Ray as a black hole and to be frank with you all, if the United States truly had nothing to hide why conceal the way the prisoners are being treated, let them open the doors to the world, let the world judge for themselves instead of placing this Clint Eastwood, nationalistic twist all over the media.
The basest of the very war is flawed. The Coalition entered Iraq to eradicate the threat posed by the WMD and for some reason the whole purpose of the ‘’struggle’’ has changed into the search and destruction of terrorism and all its forms. Forgive me for saying this but who supplied Iraq with these weapons such as anthrax to annihilate Iran? Who trained Osama Bin Laden to tear down the Soviet Republic? The answers to these questions are: The American government did along with the big CIA. The US has gone mad attacking all these ‘’Axis of Evil’’, who for the larger part have one thing in common, they are all predominantly Muslim.
What Saddam did was in no way, shape or form acceptable, but take a good look at Iraq now. It is any better now? We have truly punished the innocent people of Iraq. We have supplied their oppressor with the tools needed to rule with an iron fist in the ‘80s, we have pumped him up and then when he no longer wants to be pulled by the puppet strings, we decide to sanction them for 12 odd years and launch 2 wars against them in the space of 13 years. The blood of Iraqis is not found in Saddam’s prisons or palaces, or with the hunt of the mysteriously disappearing WMDs but on the hands of American leaders along with their 52 stars, red and white stripes.
Posted by: Undisclosed at November 05, 2005 10:14 PM (p2wnI)
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