First, what is offensive is not the Mormon practice of baptizing for the dead, but bringing the Holocaust into the debate. This is offensive for the same reason that calling people you don't like a Nazi is. The Nazis were so evil that to call someone a Nazi flippantly is to minimize the evil nature of the Hitler regime.
To single out Holocaust victims when objecting to the Mormon practice of proxy baptism for the deceased likewise. The Holocaust was a crime of singular and spectacular evil. By bringing the Holocaust into a theological debate over what seems to be an odd practice trivializes the evil that was done.
Of course, Jay Tea is right, this is an arrogant practice. But, er, so what? All religions teach that their religions are correct. And that means what exactly? It's the nature of philisophical debates.
But as much as it is arrogant it is equally selfless. That's the nature of proxy work. You do it for the benefit of others. Just think of Fonzi standing in for Richie Cunningham when he finally gets married but is off in the Air Force. See, the Fonz knows all.
As to Jay Tea's final point that the Mormons' renigged on an earlier promise to not baptize in behalf of Holocaust victims, Tom at INFDL notes:
. Wait. Let me reword that. He likes to get spanked (he told me, I swear). Let me correct him.
They don't actually dig up your body, some dude just gets baptized on behalf of some dead guy. Again, they are not making you a post-mortum Mormon. They're just catching you. You know, just in case.
But what is really irritating is that a lot of people, like Sorta Pundit, take offense to Mormons telling dead people that they were wrong. I don't get it. Mormons are saying the same thing about the living. Yup, they think your atheism is wrong. Is that a surprise?
The last time I checked the Catholics thought living Protestants were wrong, and vice-versa. Oh and Wesley had this slight disagreement with the faith of Calvinists, etc.
Pope still Catholic. Archbishop of Canterburry still Anglican. Dalai Llama still Buddhist.
More breaking news as it happens......
1
Well said. Way too much compairng to the evils of Social-sm. Nothing ever done or being done in America comes close and it trivualizes the evil that was the Socia--st Labor Party.
Posted by: Rod Stanton at April 13, 2005 03:33 PM (xGzRD)
2
allright, I had visions of late night raids in graveyards or funeral homes, or sneaking around hospital wards waiting for people to die. Last I time I saw a baptism, it involved water, prayers, singing, and living persons. If this makes them happy, and keeps them from knocking on my door and trying to convert me, then I am all for it.
Posted by: Mr. K at April 13, 2005 03:34 PM (22x5h)
3
Isn't there some way we can blame something on the Joos? Maybe in conjuncuntion with their global banking conspiracy? You know, just for old times...
Posted by: Wine-aholic at April 13, 2005 03:51 PM (Wsn+K)
4
>>>"They don't actually dig up your body, some dude just gets baptized on behalf of some dead guy."
Did you hear that Mr. K? They don't actually dig up the body and fuck its skull.
Posted by: Carlos at April 13, 2005 03:58 PM (8e/V4)
5
No Carlos, I read it, though. Are you dissappointed that they don't dig it up and skullfuck it? Has this changed your plans on joining the Mor(m)on Church?
Posted by: Mr. K at April 13, 2005 04:04 PM (22x5h)
6
They don't actually dig up your body, some dude just gets baptized on behalf of some dead guy.
I know, and there's nothing in my post that suggests that I think they dig you up and dip you in a font.
Why is it more offensive to say a dead person was wrong than the living?
Anyone can tell me my beliefs are wrong when I'm alive, 'cause I can respond with a big f*ck you and go on sinning my ass off just to spite them. For them to do the same thing when I can't verbally bitch slap them and steal their stupid hats (I've never seen a Mormon, but there's something about Salt Lake City that just screams out 'stupid hat country') seems, well, just plain rude.
Jay Tea puts it best in his final word on the matter:
"The Mormon Position: "We're only doing this because we care about you. If we're right, you'll thank us. If we're wrong, there's no real harm. So, what's the problem?"
The Jewish Position: "Regardless of your motives, we find it distatesful and offensive. Besides, whenever in our history people do things to us 'for our own good,' it almost inevitably turns out bad for us. Especially when it involves making lists of us. So please stop.""
Posted by: sortapundit at April 13, 2005 04:15 PM (F1nba)
7
Jay Tea's final word on the matter doesn't make a lot of sense.
"Besides, whenever in our history people do things to us 'for our own good,' it almost inevitably turns out bad for us."
To what is he referring? Were the Nazis exterminating Jews for their own good? How about the Babylonian captivity? The Spanish Inquisition? The Russian pogroms? Modern Islamists?
Who among history's Jew-killers ever said anything about it being "for their own good?"
Bit of a shame that Jay Tea closed his comments for me to ask him over there...
Posted by: Sobek at April 13, 2005 04:32 PM (bDqHy)
8
Sorta Pundit. Read your post again. Perhaps it was in jest, but it is there.
Further, my Father always taught me not to take offense when none is intended.
Mr. K and Carlos, WTF? Why are you guys going at each other like that?
Posted by: Rusty Shackleford at April 13, 2005 04:50 PM (JQjhA)
9
Rusty, I am in it for the sport, and take no offense at name calling...I actually enjoy a good snide remark. Wittysexkitten provided an excellent one aimed at me in another post, I recommend you go read it.
Posted by: Mr. K at April 13, 2005 05:17 PM (22x5h)
10
It's no big deal Rusty. It's a slow day and he amuses me.
Posted by: Carlos at April 13, 2005 06:06 PM (8e/V4)
11
*****Exclusive*****Must Cite Jawa Report*****
hehe! funny.
Posted by: Carlos at April 13, 2005 06:15 PM (8e/V4)
12
What is the fuss about Baptism of the Dead? To me, there are more pressing issues for the living.
Posted by: Collin Baber at April 13, 2005 06:18 PM (FV4oJ)
13
Rusty beat me to that question. Two of my favorites at ends with each other. Come on guys let us focus on more important issues. Like skull fucking Collin Baber.
Posted by: greyrooster at April 13, 2005 07:22 PM (CBNGy)
14
Being Jewish, I find it offensive that Mormons or anyone deigns to baptise us after death or any other time. Baptism isn't exactly a Jewish thing so what's the point of forcing such a religious practice on the dead who may or may not have been religious also? Don't the Mormons have enough to entertain themselves w/o resorting to offending the memory of the dead and the families of the dead? They can play tiddly winks as far as I'm concerned and Jews would appreciate that more than this bastardizing baptism crapulence. Were that done to me, I would rise up and JAP slap every Mormon in sight for this insulting and bazzar practice. If they want to trade practices, I'll be glad to do circumcisms with a "rusty" knife .. for their own good, of course.
Posted by: Bubbe at April 13, 2005 07:22 PM (4BlQ+)
15
Greyrooster:
Rusty Shackleford started it by posting that Mormons were performing baptisms of the dead, but did not write that this this was baptism by proxy. The idea of a bunch of glassy eyed religious goons sneaking around morgues baptizing unwilling corpses pissed me off. Then, Rusty gets upset over a little name calling.
As for skullfucking Collin Baber, I don't want any part of that...but does he have a sister?
Posted by: Mr. K at April 13, 2005 08:24 PM (22x5h)
16
Bubbe,
it can't hurt to cover all the bases, can it?
Posted by: Carlos at April 13, 2005 08:35 PM (8e/V4)
17
Rusty: Apparently, you have been a bad boy.
Anyway: I still don't understand the whole thing.
I'm having another drink. Sometimes being a drunk racist has its advantages.
Posted by: greyrooster at April 13, 2005 08:57 PM (CBNGy)
18
Bubbe: Jap slap is racist. Bitch slap is only feminist. Can I send you an application?
Shit your Jewish! Damn it.
Sure getting hard to get recruits nowadays.
Maybe, I'll form a Jewish auxiliary. Anything for some membership money. Ten new recruits and I get a free pizza. With beer.
Posted by: greyrooster at April 13, 2005 09:04 PM (CBNGy)
19
And further more: In the words of my favorite Jew, Kinky Friedman. You just want to doddle a Christian girl and you killed God's only son.
Posted by: greyrooster at April 13, 2005 09:13 PM (CBNGy)
20
Is it possible to let a jewish girl give you head "by proxy". Inquiring minds want to know.
very entertaining comments btw
Posted by: Seany Boy at April 13, 2005 10:19 PM (+Tm72)
21
Personally I think Mormons are freaks and their way of living or not living is absolutely ridiculous. Maybe they are too inbred. Today I found out the Governor of MA was also a mormon. I know and have been witness to some of their practices. About 25 years ago, I was working in the ER when a 3 year old child was brought in. His father had run him over up between his legs to his head and then back down again to get out of his way. He never checked to make sure he was clear to back up out of the driveway. We had judges and warrants and other things so we could treat this kid but by the time, we got control over him, he had passed away. I will never forgive his mormon parents and the kid never said a work considering he was awake the whole time. Now it's different; they get the treatment they need, especially if they are brought to a doctor or hospital whether they like it or not. Some slip through the cracks but that's not my only beef with mormons. I have a NO SOLITICATION sign on my door to keep them away from me. So far, it's worked. I don't understand the concept of baptizing dead people or holocaust individuals; I'm sure that was already done by family members or others in the camps themselves. I don't understand Mormons vs Holocaust victims. But I don't think you should pick on J so much, he means well.
Cindy
Posted by: firstbrokenangel at April 13, 2005 11:46 PM (PEKrh)
22
You do read newspaper, right? The linked story was on the AP wire and in the WSJ today. The articles specifically addressed Holocaust victims and the agreement that was broken. Remind me to object the next time you discuss the content of a news story.
Posted by: Kevin at April 14, 2005 12:19 AM (ZTHYE)
23
you have to look at people's intentions...did mormons intend to offend or harm those dead holocaust victims in any manner? i dont believe so..treat them the same as you do the people who check your height before getting on a carnival ride
Posted by: Seaby Boy at April 14, 2005 01:01 AM (+Tm72)
24
Seaby boy - a coupla things. Sobek asked who ever mistreated the Jews for their own good (i.e., going to intentions), and he actually touches on one. The Spanish Inquisition.
Basically, Spain forced a whole buncha Jews to convert "for their own good" - i.e., to save theirt souls. Them when it turns out them Jooooos weren't stickin' to it, they set up the Inquisition to find those heretics and convince them of the errors of their ways (despite popular misconceptions, the Inquisition didn't give a rat's butt about Jews who were still technically Jewish - the Catholics were worried about heretics within the Church, which the marranos were).
Ditto for things like the Jews' treatment in Italy, where Jews were forced to go through a number of mistreatments and humiliations in an effort to convince them to convert to Christianity "for their own good".
That's why this one is a sore topic. There is a long history of abuse and forced conversions of Jews "for their own good", and after almost a few millenia, Jews are kind of sick of it.
Do I think this is the most pressing issue out there? No, not really. But as a Jew, anybody performing rites to posthumously convert my relatives to another religion is still offensive to me. And for Jews, the Holocaust is relevant to this - when people die because they are Jewish, their family members are often p.o.'ed when someone tries to deny that fact or tell people that the dead aren't Jewish anymore. Sorry, Rusty, but that's not the same as comparing Mormons to Nazis (which, if anybody did, they're way outta line).
I'll tell you what. I won't photoshop pictures of your ancestors having gay sex, and you don't convert my ancestors to your religion. Deal?
Posted by: jeremy in NYC at April 14, 2005 09:11 AM (Zc63S)
25
Some good points brought up, Jeremy in NYC. There were indeed misguided, wrong attempts by Christians to proselytize in the past, hence JPII's apology on the matter.
You speak the truth about the Marranos, too. This is why forcing anyone to convert to Christianith has always been condemned by the official Magisterium of the Church--yet this condemnation was sadly ignored, to the detriment of both sides.
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at April 14, 2005 09:44 AM (x+5JB)
26
See what i mean bring up religion and everyone's back gets up.
Why dont we just keep our religions to ourselves and the world would be a happier place. We are all adults we have our own minds lets choose what we believe and leave it at that, instead of telling each other we are right they are wrong why do you think the world is in the mess that its in.
BTW I meant in our daily lives not on this blog
Posted by: sparky at April 14, 2005 10:04 AM (F1nba)
27
Good points Jeremy. I want to convert you, but not by force.
Posted by: Carlos at April 14, 2005 10:19 AM (8e/V4)
28
"Why dont we just keep our religions to ourselves"
Jesus Christ said otherwise, Sparky!
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at April 14, 2005 10:25 AM (x+5JB)
29
YBP SORRY Sir
my bad
I Believe I also know we should spread the word of christ i just think we all take what we want from religion, that its a personal thing.
Didnt mean to offend you
Posted by: sparky at April 14, 2005 10:38 AM (F1nba)
30
1. firstbrokenangel - i think you are confusing Christian Scientists with Mormons.
2. it is too rich for people who believe they are god's special chosen people to get worked up about someone else's belief that they are special.
Posted by: slickdpdx at April 14, 2005 10:58 AM (MjGRu)
31
Sparky - interesting thought. Maybe another reason Jews don't take well to this sort of thing is that Judaism is a non-proselytizing religion. Therefore, many Jews already feel "I'm not trying to convert you, so leave me alone."
Carlos - I have no problem with you wanting to convert me. It isn't going to happen, but as long as you don't force it, it doesn't bother me.
Slickdpdx - let me guess - school just got too hard after the 7th grade? (a) Nobody is complaining about Mormons believing they are special. Work on those reading comprehension skills. (b) "Chosen People" doesn't mean what you think it means. In fact, in Judaism, the concept is as much about obligation as receipt of something. Jews believe they were chosen from among the peoples of the world to receive the Torah, and they were chosen to beobligated to follow those laws. That's it. That's all it means. Get over your Talmud Envy issues.
Posted by: jeremy in NYC at April 14, 2005 11:34 AM (Zc63S)
32
Jeremy in NYC
"Im not trying to convert you so leave me alone"
Couldnt have said it better!
Posted by: sparky at April 14, 2005 11:46 AM (F1nba)
33
Sparky: Not offended at all, old chap. I was merely stating that the Apostolic mandate is to be taken seriously by Christians--teaching can be by words or actions, and always with love. If people aren't interested you move on. And you are right--it is personal, in that people have the freedom to listen or not to and then make their own decision about it. Tiaraidh an dràsda!
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at April 14, 2005 12:22 PM (x+5JB)
34
YBP
Thanks
I thought you were joking but just incase i offended you...
See what happens Rusty, now im frightned to say anything!
Posted by: sparky at April 14, 2005 12:33 PM (F1nba)
35
>>>"Jews believe they were chosen from among the peoples of the world to receive the Torah, and they were chosen to beobligated to follow those laws. That's it. That's all it means. Get over your Talmud Envy issues."
I'm with you Jeremy, and I'm not even Jewish.
The God of Abraham chose the Hebrews to reveal Him to the world. That's what it means to be "the chosen."
We'd still be sacrificing children to Moloch if it weren't for the Chosen people.
Posted by: Carlos at April 14, 2005 12:36 PM (8e/V4)
36
Not sure exactly what you meant by saying Catholics think living Protestants are wrong. Maybe you mean in different interpretations of the Bible, but just so ya know the Catholic Church teaches we are all united in the body of Christ, although imperfectly so.
(Believers, that is) So,,,they aren't "wrong."
Regarding Jay, I have said this before on his site, He needs a woman. Bad.
;-)
Posted by: Rightwingsparkle at April 14, 2005 01:22 PM (cj4E6)
37
Not sure exactly what you meant by saying Catholics think living Protestants are wrong. Maybe you mean in different interpretations of the Bible, but just so ya know the Catholic Church teaches we are all united in the body of Christ, although imperfectly so.
(Believers, that is) So,,,they aren't "wrong."
Some liberal Catholics may believe this, but Rusty is correct in talking about what the official Magisterium teaches. It is Church Dogma that they are wrong about some very important issues.
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at April 14, 2005 01:56 PM (x+5JB)
38
Believing in Yoda is so much simpler. Yoda says stay on the good side and kill the Jawas on the dark side. Yoda says Church on Sundays, we never go. Give our money, We never do. Drink your booze, if you choose. YODAISM: A modern approach to an old problem.
Posted by: greyrooster at April 15, 2005 03:21 AM (7480p)
39
"Church on Sundays, we never go."
I think a lot of Catholics must be Yodaists, Greyrooster.
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at April 15, 2005 09:29 AM (x+5JB)
40
Sparky: How you doing "ole chap": ha, ha,. Amazing what some of us can see when the obvivously better educated can't.
Bourbon: A lot of so called Catholics. Will the few truely faithful hold THE CHURCH together? I hope so, nothing bad comes from the modern Church today. For people like me. It is a buffer between us and the Islamofacists. A strong Catholic Church is important to the peace and safety of the world. Why I prefer the Catholic Church to the Protestant Churches? Easy. (1) My childhood in the Church has fond memories. (2) They allow me to help support fine countries like Scotland and Ireland without going to hell.
Posted by: greyrooster at April 16, 2005 08:58 AM (sB5vg)
41
Greyrooster: I know, I know, Sparky is Scottish. Chap still works there. What's the secret? Is he a she? Well, women can be chaps, too!
The Church WILL remain together--Christ said so, when He promised to be with it until the end of time. No other institution run by humans has lasted as long (McDonald's is a close second).
I'd like to see Cardinal Ratzinger become Pope--he is a man who can alleviate some of the confusion and liturgical silliness in the Church that exists today. JPII was concervative, but we need a guy to shake up the liberals, like Pope Saint Pius X at the turn of the century (1900).
You are a good man, Greyrooster, and the Church wants and needs you back. It's quite a simple thing to do!
Pax!
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at April 16, 2005 12:30 PM (x+5JB)
42
Yes YBP
I am of the superior sex!
Posted by: sparky at April 16, 2005 02:01 PM (F1nba)
43
Bourbon:
Not the best educated but with Sparky's sensitivity was obvious to me.
The ladies do have their moments of stardom. And I sure as hell don't wish to trade them for anything else. Not even scotch whiskey.
Maybe there is a God. After all Colon Babler has been banned. A prayer answered.
Posted by: greyrooster at April 16, 2005 03:54 PM (DAWnL)
44
GREYROOSTER
Sensitive!
How dare you *&"*@~" &*@
Posted by: sparky at April 16, 2005 09:45 PM (F1nba)
45
Dear Greyrooster,
God loves you.
Posted by: Collin Baber at April 18, 2005 07:12 AM (FV4oJ)
46
Sparky: In all honesty, I thought there was something about your posts that was feminine. I actually thought, Was Sparky a little light in then loafers?
Anyway, I'm glad to know the truth, "old chap."
:>)
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at April 18, 2005 03:05 PM (x+5JB)
47
YPB
Great minds think alike so they say.
I have to admit when i read the Ole Chap I laughed. I thought he thinks im a man and then right away i thought, oh No he probably thinks im a man who likes men ha ha ha ha
No big deal
I thought Greyrooster was a chicken!
Posted by: sparky at April 18, 2005 06:19 PM (F1nba)
48
Sparky: "I am of the superior sex!"
I won't argue this one!
So, at the risk being called a sexist, what brings you to this generally male-dominated forum, with all its posturing and machismo?
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at April 19, 2005 08:23 AM (x+5JB)
49
You are all a bunch of Nazi's. Get over yourselve's!!!
Posted by: scarytreeman at April 19, 2005 04:17 PM (bI650)
50
YBP
duh, you have to ask
Only kidding happily married with 2 youngs kids
Actually found the site late last year reading up on Iraq and enjoyed it so much i usually visit daily that is when i get peace to.
I like the banter . Sad admission that isnt it.
Scarytreeman
You love it! admit it, it will make you feel better!
Posted by: sparky at April 19, 2005 05:56 PM (F1nba)
51
Another reason is; there is far too much testosterone flying around here, you guys need the calming infulence of the gentler sex once in a while!
Posted by: sparky at April 19, 2005 06:05 PM (F1nba)
52
"you guys need the calming infulence of the gentler sex once in a while!"
I agree.
Scarytreeman's grammatically poor outburst: a muffled cry for help?
Posted by: Young Bourbon Professional at April 20, 2005 07:10 AM (x+5JB)
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Instead of apologizing for his absurd post earlier, Jay Tea digs the hole deeper. Where do I begin to respond? 
