Well, we haven't even gotten a full week into 2006 and the Idiot of the Year has already reared his ugly head. There may be bigger idiots as the year goes on, but I certainly don't see how at this point.
This idiot makes the ACLU look almost tame by comparison as he attempts to fell the entire Catholic Church in one fatal blow. Luigi Cascioli of Italy has decided to try and force the Italian court system to prove that Jesus never existed.
Cascioli says Righi, and by extension the whole Church, broke two Italian laws. The first is "Abuso di Credulita Popolare" (Abuse of Popular Belief) meant to protect people against being swindled or conned. The second crime, he says, is "Sostituzione di Persona", or impersonation.
"The Church constructed Christ upon the personality of John of Gamala," Cascioli claimed, referring to the 1st century Jew who fought against the Roman army.
Now, I'm no lawyer, but I seem to see a TON of loopholes here. First and foremost being that even a large number of athiests admit that Jesus was a real person. They don't necessarily attribute any diety to Him, but they do admit his existence. Heck, even Muslims go that far. It would seem to me that you're going to have an extraordinarily hard time convincing a judge of ANY stripe to conclusively rule that Jesus never existed.
Secondly, you're going to have just as hard a time trying to find a judge that will label the entire Catholic Church as a giant "pyramid scheme." That's just ludicrous to begin with. The public fallout of such a decision would be disasterous. Not to mention the political hornet's nest you'd open up.
Yes, I know there have been specific churches that have been called up on charges of fraud and other such activities. I have never denied that there are some corrupt pastors who use God to make money. But I'd think if you're going to target an entire religion, you might want to start with one that everyone (except Tom Cruise) recognizes as a scam. Even L. Ron Hubbard admitted that Scientology is nothing but a joke.
At least the Italian court is attempting to do the right thing. According to the story, the judge had tried several times to dismiss the case, but only ends up getting tangled up in appeals from the plaintiff. I'm fairly sure of the outcome of this idiot's case, but I'll have to follow the story closely anyway to make sure.
Posted by: Oyster at January 05, 2006 08:22 AM (osKlJ)
2
I hope they didn't think they were going to gain credibility by associating themselves with the "Jesus Seminar." I thought they were debunked as loonies a LONG time ago.
Posted by: Drew at January 05, 2006 08:32 AM (Ml8z/)
3
Why dose that idiot judge think we clebrate christmas for? he needs a lightning bolt in his rear end
Posted by: sandpiper at January 05, 2006 08:34 AM (4pkrX)
4
Thanks for reminding me why I'm not a Leftwinger anymore.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 05, 2006 09:51 AM (8e/V4)
Posted by: hondo at January 05, 2006 10:03 AM (3aakz)
6
If these people had any balls they would make a film about why Allah doesn't exist. They know they can pick on Christians, but I will guarantee you they won't take the Muslims on.
As a matter of fact, I remember something about Muslims filing a criminal complaint against a writer in Italy who criticized Islam. Do Christians not have the same rights in the EU as Muslims?
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 05, 2006 10:29 AM (rUyw4)
7
Religion in general is losing in the EU (unless it involves crystals and chants). Islam has a temporary luxury - the Euros are scared of them.
Terror does work with some people.
Posted by: hondo at January 05, 2006 10:47 AM (3aakz)
8
Yeah, let's see them make a movie about the life and whacky antics of Moooohammed. Sean Penn would make a good Mohammed.
Posted by: Oyster at January 05, 2006 10:56 AM (osKlJ)
9
>>>"the Euros are scared of them. Terror does work with some people."
I read somewhere some Hollyweirdo pretty much admitting as much.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 05, 2006 11:04 AM (8e/V4)
10
>>>"the Euros are scared of them. Terror does work with some people."
I read somewhere some Hollyweirdo pretty much admitting as much.
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 05, 2006 11:04 AM (8e/V4)
11
Who cares what a silly little man in Italy does?
Posted by: greyrooster at January 05, 2006 11:11 AM (XioYD)
12
Ah crap, here we go again. Okay, let me, as somwhat of a scholar on religion generally, and Christianity specifically, state the following: There has never been a living person named Jesus Christ. This is not a name, but rather a title, conferred after the man, Yeshua bin Yusef, (Joshua, son of Joseph) had died and been made a legend many years after his death. Jesus is the Anglicized form of the Latin
Iesu, pronounced
ee-yeh-soo, (Latin had no hard
j sound, but rather used the letter
i instead, with a pronunciation more like a
y), which itself was a form of the Greek
Isus (
ee-soos), which means
the good, and can be demonstrated to be etymologically related to an archaic word for good,
i-yah, which in context is interchangable with
holy, and from which the name Yahweh is derived, which basically means
he who is good. The ancient Hebrews called their god Yahweh, but since it was forbidden to speak this name, he was called El, which means in this context,
he who is. The ancient Indo-Europeans had a god called Issus, who was a general purpose god and was called by the ancient Celts
the good striker. The name Christ is a derivative of the Greek
chrysos, which means
gold, or
golden, and which is itself derived from the Semitic word
khrus. Incidentally, the name of the Egyptian goddess Isis is also related to the name Jesus by the same means.
So, it is quite easy to prove that no person named Jesus Christ ever lived, but that doesn't really settle the issue of the legendary Jesus compared to the real Yeshua bin Yusef, who obviously lived and made quite an impression on the Pharisees and, unfortunately for him, the Romans too, who had no sense of humor regarding anyone calling themselves the king of anything, and especially not regarding someone who was rumored to claim that he was the son of a god, as the Emperor was the foremost deity in any territory controlled by the Romans, and suffered no rivals.
The whole Jesus legend is taken from parts of other legends and traditions, such as divine lineage as practiced by the Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians, and from other religions such as the cult of Mitra, who was coincidentally born in a stable on midwinter to human parents, though being of divine lineage himself. There is even anecdotal evidence that Yeshua may have been exposed to Zoroastrianism, Mitraism, Buddhism, and other religions during his "missing years", from the age of 12 until his reappearance at 33, shortly before his death.
In conclusion, the truth has been lost for so long, and the legend has not grown less in the telling and down through the generations, but has rather been embellished by successive adherents to the faith, that not even all Christians can agree on specific details of the birth, life, death, or even divinity of Jesus, who was not even universally considered divine until the Council of Nicea, called by the Emperor Constantine to unify the faith so that he could control the faithful and consolidate his hold on a declining empire. So believe what you want to believe, because one legend is as valid as another, since none of them have anything more to do with reality than the others. As the prophets Bill and Ted said, "Be excellent to one another", and don't get bent out of shape over the details.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at January 05, 2006 01:30 PM (0yYS2)
13
Maximus, this little rant of yours can be made right with the sacrament of reconciliation (confession). But shit son, we got to get your but into Mass!
Posted by: Brad at January 05, 2006 02:02 PM (3OPZt)
14
C'mon Brad, you read it on the internet, it must be true, right?
Posted by: KG at January 05, 2006 03:07 PM (eRMCR)
15
<spelling flames are lame>
athy, athier, athiest
</spelling flames are lame>
Posted by: Ed Flinn at January 05, 2006 03:29 PM (RRq7w)
16
Maximus is the smartest man alive. You should listen to him.
Posted by: krut at January 05, 2006 03:36 PM (nN8V/)
17
Maximus doesn't realize that God had all this information as well, and, being so fond of literary allusion as to have included it in His Creation, instructed Gabriel to forward the name "Jesus" to Mary. (It is speculated that it may also be because the fifth level of Hell, which was designated for keyboard philosophers fond of popping out steamers like
"So, it is quite easy to prove that no person named Jesus Christ ever lived", was looking a little underpopulated.)
Posted by: a4g at January 05, 2006 03:50 PM (cKUf6)
18
The name Jesus comes from the Greek Iesous, from the Hebrew Yeshua or Yesua, the word meaning "Yahweh is Salvation." The name was given to Mary via God the Father from the angel Gabriel and signifies the redemptive act of love, the salvation of man from sin through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross as part of the New covenant.
The Greek word Christos means "annointed," from "chriein." It was used as a proper name after the death of death of Jesus, particulary in the writing of St. Paul )Phil. 1:1-2). Its use by St. Paul declared the apostles' belief and affirmation of the divinity if Jesus, wxplicit in Phil. 2:5-11. However, the word Kyrios in Greek is a translation of the Aramaic equivalent of "the prophesied king." Thus, Jesus fulfilled in His Incarnation the promise made to Abraham, as given in the geneology found in the first chapter of St. Matthew's Gospel.
The fact that a Savior would one day be born was common knowledge in the Midle East and surrounding territories. There are references throughout the Old Testament. Thus, other and false religions were easily able to add some elements of truth to their ultimately made-up fantasies. Buddhism, etc., make no claims to their founders being divine. Christianity alone has the boldness (and authority) to make this claim.
Pax to all.
Posted by: youngbourbonprofessional at January 05, 2006 04:38 PM (tdhAh)
19
Greetings YBP, and thanks for the informative comment. I'm too stupid to make an intelligent post on this subject, so I'm enjoying reading other's ideas. Gracias!
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 05, 2006 04:47 PM (rUyw4)
20
[Oyster's brain explodes]
Posted by: Oyster at January 05, 2006 04:53 PM (YudAC)
21
L. Ron Hubbard never said anything about Scientology being a joke - and I doubt that a man would devote one half of his life, working 12-14 hour days for all that time, just for the sake of a "joke".
Not everyone thinks that Scientology is a "scam". I've been a Scientologist for over 20 years and I'm quite happy and proud to be one. So is my wife. We have a great life, good income, two happy kids and we have a great relationship, and our practice of Scientology is no small part of this.
Neither do the 8 million Scientologists worldwide think it a joke, nor do the Governors and Senators that have praised our volunteer efforts.
The thousands of Katrina survivors we helped (www.volunteerministers.org), delivering food and water to them and helping them get to safety, don't think we're a joke either.
In fact, the only people who think we're a joke are self-ascribed Internet pundits who've never as much as read one single Scientology book in their lifetime.
Posted by: Greg at January 05, 2006 04:58 PM (QVrUo)
22
...And, before I get flamed for being off-topic (though my religion was part of the original post), let me contribute this:
There's an excellent book called "In Search Of the Historical Jesus", and another called "Who Was Jesus" - both excellent references. In the first one, I read that archeology has gone as far as proving the existence of Pontius Pilates - but that the existence of Jesus himself is still not proven.
Then there's the shroud of Turin - but many have doubted its authenticity.
My two cents, should anyone care for change.
Posted by: Greg at January 05, 2006 05:02 PM (QVrUo)
23
[Oyster's brain explodes]
Thereby disproving the Big Bang Theory. There has to be something to bang before you can have a big bang. You can't get something from nothing. Haha, now everyone can call me stupid, and frankly, I deserve it.
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 05, 2006 05:06 PM (rUyw4)
24
(hondo's brain tunes out - good time to take down some of those Christmas lights)
Posted by: hondo at January 05, 2006 05:06 PM (3aakz)
25
HAHAHAHA!
Why does it not surprise me that 'tinfoil' Greg practices a religion based on 'murdered space aliens' possessing the living?
How's Xenu?
Posted by: dave at January 05, 2006 05:19 PM (CcXvt)
26
Greg has two kids? Crap! I have three kids, I wonder if there is a chance they will ever meet. Nah, my kids are rednecks!
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 05, 2006 05:26 PM (rUyw4)
27
Hi Dave,
What you're referring to is not Scientology practice, but the stolen documents of case research that Hubbard did in the 1960s. It's out--of-context distorted crap taken from transcripts of sessions exploring the possibility of past lives.
Get over it. You don't learn about someone's religion by reading hate-sites.
Posted by: Greg at January 05, 2006 05:30 PM (QVrUo)
28
Jesusland Joe: Et tu Carlos???
Posted by: youngbourbonprofessional at January 05, 2006 05:33 PM (tdhAh)
29
You guys can believe what you want, but prophesied kings and deliverers are no less common than goats in the ME, and the Hebrews were no more or less afflicted with such prophesies than any other Semitic culture, they just happened to find a willing audience in the Romans to perpetuate their myths. The Romans were extrememly accepting of others' religions and myths, and readily incorporated them into their own, often combining names and aspects of mythological beings to create new ones, such as when they combined Egyptian, Zoroastrian, and Hebrew aspects and traditions in the myth of Jesus, who was no less a creation of Paul, et al. As I said before, the hard facts are long lost, and everyone who wishes to believe will find what they want, regardless of the truth, and personally, as long as people
don't go around murdering and oppressing others in the name of myth they follow, I don't really care, just don't expect me to buy it.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at January 05, 2006 05:34 PM (0yYS2)
30
Did the Scientologists tell you, to tell me that?
How the hell would you know what I'm referring to you've not
paid enough money to "achieve the level" of the super duper top secret OTIII religious instruction!
What with their attempts to filter the internet results on members machines, and the "creator" being a science fiction writer, I think I'll take those documents at face value.
XENU LIVES!
Posted by: dave at January 05, 2006 05:35 PM (CcXvt)
31
To Dave:
1) Take a deep breath, man. Relax.
2) I'm not sure what you mean by the "Scientologists" telling me that. I AM them. (They is me. I am it. Whatever.)
3) You're perpetuating a stupid Internet urban legend. You can walk into any Scientology organization and ask to buy a taped lecture called "Ron's Journal 1967" and you get to hear what you're referring to. Some of this stuff is also in the book "Have You Lived Before This Life?", and you can also find much of it in lectures and seminars of that period. It's research into the concept of past lives. It's not such a big deal. Someone's been screwing with your head, and you've bought into it hook, line and sinker.
Incidentally, you don't achieve OT3 by paying - you achieve it through religious counseling, good deeds and dedicated introspection.
But enough about that! Back to the topic.
I'm glad someone brought up Mithraism into this. We're days away from "the day of the 3 Kings" (for hispanic catholics) - did any of you know that the "3 kings" were actually most likely Zoroastrian Magi, pursuing the birth of Mithras? The similarities between the Birth of Christ story and the Mithras legend are astounding.
Posted by: Greg at January 05, 2006 05:53 PM (QVrUo)
32
Hey, this is to all you folks.
And sorry for my ignorance.
But it seems I've walked into a room of "I hate Islam" club - is this correct?
Anyway, my question is, how come you hate Islam?
I know very little about Muslims, but when I volunteered in Indonesia this year (tsunami), I met a ton of really cool, decent muslims.
Sure, I realize that some a&&ho1es have done some real nasty things in the name of Islam, but, hold on, haven't other a&&ho1es done bad things in the name of Christianity as well?
It seems to me that it'd be better to be "anti-a&&ho1e" instead of anti one religion or the other.
Posted by: Greg at January 05, 2006 06:02 PM (QVrUo)
33
>>>You guys can believe what you want, but prophesied kings and deliverers are no less common than goats in the ME,
LoL!
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 05, 2006 06:32 PM (8e/V4)
34
>>>Jesusland Joe: Et tu Carlos???
esqueeze me?
Posted by: Jesusland Carlos at January 05, 2006 06:33 PM (8e/V4)
35
perhaps you and your fellow nutballs, could get together and sue (most likely) or educate all of the masses on wikipedia that have been duped by a "urban legend" :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu
Funny thing is, the discussion page is the only one on wikipedia I've ever seen that starts with:
This is not a joke article. Check the references if you want verification. This is a genuine religious belief. "
Despite your claim of it being an urban legend, it has been used as a source, and cited as being one of the best articles.
Posted by: dave at January 05, 2006 06:43 PM (CcXvt)
36
The entire collection of idiots on this board should collectively be given "IDIOT OF THE MILLENIUM AWARD".
Posted by: Norris at January 05, 2006 07:07 PM (wkSmR)
37
Norris, bug off. Nobody is forcing you to come here.
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 05, 2006 07:58 PM (rUyw4)
38
JJ
Gotta admit - a lotta people really got into this "Idiot Of The Year" topic!
Posted by: hondo at January 05, 2006 08:05 PM (3aakz)
39
The thing that gets me is how this is such a juicy topic, ripe with potential, yet so many idiots still manage to go completely off the damn map.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at January 05, 2006 09:57 PM (0yYS2)
40
It got a lot of traffic because it comes up in a search of google news on Luigi Cascioli.
It would be nice if there was a possibility of critical discussion of the lack of evidence for the existence of a historical Jesus in the US. However, as you even see in this forum, such a topic brings up such a viseral negative reaction, and such cemented ignorance that it effectively closes the discussion down.
People posit Muslims as the opposite of Christians, when they are a part of the same tradition. Do they disagree? Oh, with bloodshed! There's no conflict quite as bloody as internecine warfare.
The fact that there may be a committed athiest somewhere convinced that there was an historical Jesus, only points to the pervasiveness of the frauds perpetrated by the church and the lack of real dialog on the subject.
Not that it matters...
Posted by: durga bhakti at January 05, 2006 10:49 PM (NL2Cs)
41
A fellow attorney here in Houston wrote a book a few years ago entitled
Faith on Trial, a superbly documented legal analysis...to show that almost every event surrounding the fundamental testimony of the Gospels can be verified today. Perhaps Pam can join the defense team in that silly Italian trial.
Posted by: Jason at January 05, 2006 11:01 PM (TwSjW)
42
Well Dave,
I guess then you must know more than I do about my own religion. Funny thing, considering I've been a practicing Scientologist for twenty-two years, and all you know about it is what you've read on Wikipedia.
Hmmm...
(Another case of "I read it on the Net, it MUST be true!)
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein
If the world should blow itself up, the last audible voice would be that of an expert saying it can't be done.
--Peter Ustinov
I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance.
--Socra+es
(Can you *believe* the posting interface objected to my use of Socra+es as a word??)
Posted by: Greg at January 06, 2006 01:18 AM (QVrUo)
43
"Thereby disproving the Big Bang Theory. [...]"
???
WTF, JJ? I'll let that one slide, but I'm curious ... Who pissed in your cornflakes?
Posted by: Oyster at January 06, 2006 05:27 AM (YudAC)
44
durga must be reading a different koran than the one entitled "The Holy Koran", for that is the only way he can say that Christianity and Islam have anything in common. They are as different as night and day. Christianity is 600 years older than Islam. Its method of salvation is based on grace (i.e. it is the free gift of God to those who believe), while in Islam you have a set of proscribed duties (making the Hajj, praying five times a day, etc) and if those are accomplished then you might get into paradise, which is also completely different from the Christian idea of Heaven. Oh, and then there is that whole jihad thing. Jesus didn't spend his time massacring those who disagreed with him, nor did enjoin his followers to force others to convert by the sword. The Koran specifically states that muslims are to fight with the infidels until they are subdued (see Sura 9) or the infidels pay the tax.
Posted by: Tick Master at January 06, 2006 06:10 AM (aDhQM)
45
L. Ron Hubbard never said anything about Scientology being a joke - and I doubt that a man would devote one half of his life, working 12-14 hour days for all that time, just for the sake of a "joke".
No, but all that cash, lavish attention, drugs, and nubile young girls might induce a dishonest man to run such a scam.
Posted by: Robert Crawford at January 06, 2006 07:34 AM (n5eDP)
46
Durga, Christianity was a new faith based on the teachings of a man who had travelled far and probably been influenced by Buddhism and Zoroastrianism, as well as his own native Judaism of course. Islam was begun by a man who had never travelled much, but who had been exposed to Judaism and Arab paganism, and who tried to make himself a prophet in the style of those in the OT.
The only similarities between Christianity and Islam is that both try to be successors to Judaism, but neither really is because Judaism is still around and is distinct from both. The reason muslims hate Jews so much is because muslims want to take the Jews place as the "chosen people", a self-given appelation which means nothing, and has even been abandoned by all but the most orthodox of Jews and fundamentalist Christians.
Christianity learned to accept the Jews only in this century, and given that islam is always behind the times, it may be another hundred years before muslims do too, but first, muslims have to stop hating themselves before they can stop hating others.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at January 06, 2006 08:38 AM (0yYS2)
47
Tick Master:
Actually, I believe durga refers to Abraham's two sons Isaac and Ishmael. In Abraham's time, God told him that he would be the father of a great nation through his son. Of course at the time Abraham was in his 80s and he and his wife had never had children, so Abraham was a bit skeptical. Since his wife thoght she coudln't have kids, she arranged for Abraham to have a child with their maid. He was born and named Ishmael. 14 years later, Sarah (Abraham's wife) became pregnant and gave birth to Isaac. Since Ishmael was illegitimate, Abraham pushed him to the side and Isaac was proclaimed the rightful heir through which a great nation would appear. Long story short, Ishmael is the founder of the Muslim religion and Isaac is the father of the Jewish nation.
I'm telling this off the top of my head, so if I've got any of my specifics twisted, please let me know, but that's the gist of it and a whole lot of the reason for the animosity between the Jews and Muslims. Or between the Muslims and everyone else.
Posted by: Drew at January 06, 2006 08:43 AM (Ml8z/)
48
Y'all wanna hear something crazy from me? Well, it will sound crazy, considering I'm an avoiwed atheist; I think the teachings of Jesus, (whether he was real or imaginary is irrelevant), are a damn good set of guideposts by which to live one's life. But, (You saw this coming, didn't you?), unfortunately, most people who call themselves Christians have about as much to do with the actual teachings of Jesus as does the average satanist. This isn't to say that there aren't some damn fine people among the Christians, because there are and plenty, but hypocrisy and ignorance are all too common among the flock, and they give the rest a bad name.
I left Christianity, but I didn't forget the lessons taught me by people who truly believed in doing what was right by all, and not just on Sunday morning when they dress up and play pretend at being good people, but all the time. One of my most vivid memories from childhood comes from when I was no more than three or four years old, when I was sick and my dad's old '55 Chevy truck wouldn't start because the six volt electrical system wouldn't work in the cold. He called people from our church to find someone with a four wheel drive truck or jeep to get us down the snowy mountain roads, but none of them had time to help save a sick child in the middle of a freezing cold night, so he called an old drunk who was roundly despised by all the good god-fearing people of the community, and all the old man said was "I'll be right there." He drove us over fifty miles to the hospital and stayed with us until I was released, then drove us home, and wouldn't even accept gas money from my dad. It was about that time that our churchgoing dropped off sharply, and the good people of the community saw fit to look down their noses at us.
The church can go to hell for all I care, and every Bible-thumping sonofabitch with it, because all the churches and Bibles in the world can't make someone be what they're not, they only let them pretend to be better than everyone else.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at January 06, 2006 10:09 AM (0yYS2)
49
Oyster,
Sorry, what I meant to convey is that there has to be something to bang for there to be a "big bang theory". And since you obviously had a brain to begin with then there could be a bang. It was a bad joke, obviously. I apologize.
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 06, 2006 10:18 AM (rUyw4)
50
And some people call this an echo chamber?
If all of us got together for a few beers, a fight would break out before the 3rd round.
BTW: I bought a copy of Dianetics just so I could throw it in the toilet this am. Do Scientologists issue FatwaÂ’s?
Posted by: Brad at January 06, 2006 10:30 AM (6mUkl)
51
What I meant was that, mistaken about each other or not, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all a part of what is properly identified as Abramic monotheism. Each lays claim to following the true directives of the God of Abraham. Islam claims Jesus as a prophet and his mother Mary as a sacred figure.
Durga is the name of a Hindu Warrior Deity. I am outside of this system we are discussing.
But as I pointed out, the harshest, bloodiest conflicts are internecine, between brothers.
I personally think that this is because it takes so much energy to de-humanize and internally alienate people who are so very very like you.
I friend of mine was brought up in a Jewish family, but later studied Arabic, and confessed to me that the languages were far more alike than they were different.
These are brothers who are hating and killing each other century after century. It is horrifying to watch.
Durga Bhakti
Posted by: durga bhakti at January 06, 2006 11:19 AM (P1NKh)
52
Regardless of the fact that there have been so many wars fought over religious beliefs, they all boil down to social engineering and control. And there are other secular social engineering experiments which have proven to be far more deadly to those subjected to them. Honestly, as far as I can see in this day and age though, Islamic fundamentalism has proven to be the most dangerous to human rights, equality and individualism among the religious ones. And I'm not talking about what's written in the books, but what is actually widely accepted and practiced. Hearing about a Christian man gouging his wife's eye out for dishonoring him is an aberration. Hearing about a Muslim man doing it is daily news.
Any religion or ideology that mandates certain behavior in everything from which hand to wipe your ass with to what size stick is proper to beat one's wife with under threat of any manner of repercussion is bad news. Any deviation does not necessarily just get one sent back to re-education camps or "Koran school". Depending on the infraction, one can easily get permanent disfiguration or death. Justice is arbitrary, inconsistant and often the punishment no where near fits the "crime".
No matter what the Koran
says, these are behaviors we regularly observe from followers of Islam.
Islam's God is not even remotely like Christianity's God, nor anything like the Creator mentioned by our own forefathers. Nor is Mohammed even close to Jesus (I don't care who really existed or not). Mohammed had sex with a 9 year old and no one blinks an eye. Dan Brown writes a book that Jesus might have been married to a full grown woman and everyone screams about the hypocrisy of the Christians.
Give me a break.
Finding similarities between the religions is just a silly game and an exercize in moral relativism. When there are differences so vast in the practices, it kind of negates those minor likenesses or what derived from what.
[/rant] Sorry. I get angry sometimes.
Posted by: Oyster at January 06, 2006 12:22 PM (YudAC)
53
Damn good rant, Oyster!
Posted by: jesusland joe at January 06, 2006 03:24 PM (rUyw4)
54
Damn Oyster, I like it when you get riled up. Durga did make a couple of valid points though, just don't read too much into them.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at January 06, 2006 05:48 PM (0yYS2)
55
Greg: You are a dumb shit. So's your wife for believing you.
Posted by: greyrooster at January 06, 2006 09:39 PM (ZsYgO)
56
To greyrooster:
Thanks for that constructive criticism. It's nice to know there's people like you in the world, making everyone's day a little brighter.
Posted by: Greg at January 07, 2006 12:05 AM (QVrUo)
57
To Robert Crawford:
No, but all that cash, lavish attention, drugs, and nubile young girls might induce a dishonest man to run such a scam.
Robert, while it's interesting in some way to disagree with things that don't exist and never happened, it would be much more useful to discuss things related to reality. You might be referring to Mick Jagger's life, but not to Hubbard's.
http://www.lrh.org
Posted by: Greg at January 07, 2006 12:10 AM (QVrUo)
58
Interesting! the Bacofoil king, and the master of the loony tune website URL, criticized me for believing something I read on the Internet.
If you know "so much more" about your faith Greg, why don't you go and correct them, instead of letting them propagate "urban legends" as you call it? you do realize anyone can edit a article at wikipedia? you might hit a snag: they require sources for reputing/verifying facts.
I'm guessing you can't refute the Xenu/Xemu/whatever article.
Posted by: dave at January 07, 2006 12:18 AM (CcXvt)
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Hey Greg, don't let them get you down, they're only ignorant unbelievers. The head of cabbage in my refrigerator tells me so.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at January 07, 2006 09:27 AM (0yYS2)
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Greg...
After you pay around $400,000, you will learn that all these engrams you have been working on these last decades are actually body thetans (space alien spirits clustering to you): it's a higher knowledge level where you learn what really engrams are. Many former scientologists that have reached OT3 and beyond confirm this.
The unfortunate things, it seems there is no end to get rid of all these body thetans, you will have to go through auditing until you run out of money, or you die, or you wake up to the scam. Many have woken up, they feel freer than ever nowayds. Of course, you "church" won't tell you that, you bring in the dough.
Conveniently for the "church", we are just suppressive, so you will discard this information we bring to you, and keep on feeding this sinister organization.
I suggest you read www.xenu.net, but cognitive dissonance being what it is, it is unlikely you will accept that you gave 20 years of your life into an organization consider the following a religious scipture: "If attacked on some vulnerable point by anyone or anything or any organization, always find or manufacture enough threat against them to cause them to sue for peace." L. Ron Hubbard (only one out of so many sinister policies)...
Posted by: Ray at January 07, 2006 10:06 AM (ZCLuk)
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Well, now, isn't this coming back around to the point? And it's so easy for it to spread out like a wildfire. But back to the point...
People will believe what it best suits them to believe. Some beliefs, in spite of how fantastical they seem to others, work very well for a great number of their followers.
I see no problem with that.
We seem to get into trouble with each other when each one insists that they have the single monopoly on the truth and the others better catch on quick or either face the consequences of the unseen divine, or better yet the wrath of the true believers.
Oyster said "Any religion or ideology that mandates certain behavior in everything..." which reminded me of something I find problematic, fundamentalism, the insistence on a single literal interpretation of a text.
The question of "historical accuracy" feeds right back into this debate.
There are certain believers that use historical accuracy hand in hand with fundamentalism to insist on a single truth... for everyone.
One god, one text, one way.
I think at some point someone is bound to say "Prove it" and then we get back to the news story that has sparked this debate.
When I read Ray's post to Greg, it seems very similar to Luigi Cascioli's perspective on the Catholic Church.
Posted by: durga bhakti at January 07, 2006 10:39 AM (tNPSF)
62
Hubbard: "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion."
http://www.whyaretheydead.net/krasel/aff_sm_930414.pdf
Ps. Xenu is realy a part of Scientology, otherwise scientology would't have raided indivuduals and my ISP, nor dragged to court 24 defendants in one swoom in The Netherlands for supposed copyright violation. They lost, but it took ten years and a huge bag of money.
If you want to quick guide to the alien Scientology beliefs then watch South Park.
Scroll down here
http://www.xenu.net/news/
Mike
Posted by: Mike Gormez at January 07, 2006 07:02 PM (9c/DO)
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Hubbard didn't say that, Orson Welles did. Court affidavits say so.
You guys can believe whatever you want. But I find it kinda stupid that you'd believe Internet rumors over the word of an actual, practicing Scientologist who's been in Scientology for over two decades.
And, Hi Mike Gormez, why don't you tell the group who you really are, and all the lawsuits you've been involved in?
To the rest of you, like I said before - you're being fed a bunch of bs by anti-Scientologists like this Mike Gormez here (who's devoted much of his free time to attacking my religion on the Net).
Some day, you may want to actually learn for yourselves what Scientology is really about. In the meantime, feel free to hang on to your alien stories if they amuse you.
Posted by: Greg at January 09, 2006 10:00 AM (QVrUo)
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Greg, I'll believe the cabbage in my fridge any day over a brainwashed religious cult fanatic, whether you, or Osama, or the Pope, because cabbages don't lie and they're useful for something, unlike religious fanatics who are dangerous and should all be exiled to anthrax island or some such place.
Posted by: Improbulus Maximus at January 09, 2006 10:37 AM (0yYS2)
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Hi Improbus,
I can empathize with your logic - but it has a couple of holes.
First of all, you may find that the people that you dub "religious fanatics" are not any more so than you.
Challenge your assumptions.
I happen to follow a philosophy which helps me deal with the problems of everyday life, and (I hope) makes me a better person. This philosophy is what took me to volunteer for three weeks in Indonesia in January, and for another three weeks in July in Mississippi - at my own expense. This philosophy does not teach me to hate, does not advocate any of my fellow human beings "exiled to anthrax island" or any such thing.
Scientology appeals to me because it encourages introspection and allows -encourages- people to think for themselves. (Sure, that's not what you hear in the Media, but Hello? the Media twists things.)
I don't think it's fair to compare any Scientologist to Osama. On the 20th of September of 2001 I, along with 800 other Scientology volunteers, was on a plane to New York to pitch in. We helped the firefighters and the relief workers for days at a time right in Ground Zero, and were commended by Giulianni's office for it. So I believe the Osama reference is a bit out of place.
Look, all I'm asking you is to realize that I'm not here telling you that you should believe as I do, nor am I here to convince you of anything other than this:
Allow for the possibility that the bullshit you read about Scientology on the Internet and the National Enquirer MAY not be the absolute truth.
Peace.
Greg
www.liveandgrow.org
PS: Ask the cabbage in your fridge, it may agree with me. :-)
Posted by: Greg at January 09, 2006 11:56 PM (QVrUo)
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