1 It would have been smart politics for the Republicans to stay quiet on the issue giving the impression that they are intractable and therefore demoralizing those organizing the AMNESTY RALLIES. If they wanted to drop the felony provision they should have waited until a later time so that it didn't appear they were buckling under intense pressure. However, the Republican leadership has never been noted for intellect so they are going the impression that the AMNESTY RALLIES effected change.

2 Democrats aren't stupid, that's for sure.

3 "...a majority of House Republicans wanted to elevate the violation to a misdemeanor; but Democrats proposed making it a felony -- to undermine the entire bill by making it appear too harsh,..." This is just their way of getting back at the Republicans for forcing a vote on the draft legislation Charley Rangel sponsored in '04 and for forcing a vote on Jack Murtha's pull-out.They called it a "dirty trick". Well then, what do they call this? And Ted "Blowhole" Kennedy's and Hillary Clinton's speeches the last couple days made me want to puke. It seems that everytime a Democrat gets in front of a microphone they think they have to yell and get "passionate" when all it is is pandering to the entitlement crowd. Meh.

4 Uh...if Hastert's statement bears any relationship to what actually happened...then how did the felony provision get into the bill in the first place, given that Sensenbrenner's bill was a Republican written, Republican supported bill when it came out of his Republican dominated committee with almost all Republican votes? Face it--Repubs thought that the country WANTED harsh anti-immigrant measures (and some evidence says they were right, at the time). So they put the tough measures, with no guest worker or legalization into the bill. When the Catholic church and some other groups said--hey, this will criminalize the nun who gives shelter to a destitute Mexican family...the Repubs tried to downgrade it to misdemeanor. The Dems, for once not being stupid, said--hold up there, you guys are stuck with the hate-bill you passed. It is a more complicated story than the one you are telling, Howie. And how many times have Republicans stuck Democrats with a roadblock--because they wanted the issue for the elections? It's just smart legislating by the opposition. The majority got what it said it wanted--and then decided to try and change it. Dems are not going to help Repubs when they are behaving incompetently, and perhaps incoherently. And I think many Dems sincerely wanted NO criminality.

5 Personnaly the reason many Americans won't do these jobs is becuase they don't have to. I think a few of these welfare to work jobs should be this type. And if you can identify the father of little Susie welfare's kids put him in the field too to cover her expense. I've throw hay chopped thistles cut grass. But hey I draw the line at detassleing corn. Never been that desparate. Ranther than these guys have to sneak across to do the jobs and suck up out services for free I'd much rather they not have to cross illegally. If you have a job waiting I'm all for work so come on. But here in ILL some misdemeanors can become a felony. for instance battery if you have the same guy in court 3 times over and over it can become a felony. Or if there are aggravating circumstances a change can be eleaveted to a felony. I would support the same thing here. First time misdemeanor. But if the same guy gets caught over and over on a regular basis or say is here illegally and commits a serious crime then also I would support that. But just some guy trying to feed his kids it's a bit harsh. Get our people to put down the chips and sweat for about 12 hours and our medicare cost will go down too. But if not got to have workers.

6 I reckon since the author did not put that in it was an ammendment. Also some on the right would suppprt a felony I'm just not that guy. We need workers yes but we can't hand out servicers for free forever and we also need some control. Maybe not total control of the border but a good balance. A guest worker bill could help.

7 "If they wanted to drop the felony provision they should have waited until a later time so that it didn't appear they were buckling under intense pressure." You mean they're not? Its good when the right side wins, for once. In a time when Americans are all about ready to retreat (or never engage) from righteous battles going on around the world - from the cartoons of stupidity to Iraq and Iran - its good to see at least one segment of the American population can stand up for whats right. Good job to the immigrants (legal and illegal) who protested and the businesses who exerted pressure on the repubs for this.

8 Drop all welfare payments and you'll see Americans doing those jobs. Wages would be pretty decent too I bet. Liberalism is what caused this problem in the first place with welfare and open borders. Now the GOP is going to take the fall for wanting to fix the problem. Liberalism is a cancer on society. It's like an AIDS virus, weakening our resistance to social ills. Look at France. It's killing them too. Riots 24/7 and the weak kneed government caving to no-good lazy malcontents. Same thing here in America. The GOP doesn't have the balls.

9 MIB I see it a bit differently. We are trying to help. Every guest worker would be one less guy that has to sneak across. The Dems can't afford for the right to be the source of help they have to throw a wrench into and stir up a whole mess of made up trouble. Too many hispanics go conservative as they age once in the US anyway. The perception that conservatives like people who work and would help do what they can while still trying to control the problems is a perception the left has to fight tooth and nail. If they don't they loose big.

10 Jesusland Carlos - Hey lets drop the welfare, open the borders, and then see what happens. Oh wait, you can't, because Americans are socialists. Nice fantasy tho. "MIB I see it a bit differently. We are trying to help. Every guest worker would be one less guy that has to sneak across. The Dems can't afford for the right to be the source of help they have to throw a wrench into and stir up a whole mess of made up trouble. Too many hispanics go conservative as they age once in the US anyway. The perception that conservatives like people who work and would help do what they can while still trying to control the problems is a perception the left has to fight tooth and nail. If they don't they loose big." I already presented a workable solution. Why is no one asking about the arbitrarily set limits and hoops you need to jump through to get into the USA? And why does everyone seem to take without question the arbitrary assertion that the USA can only assimilate "so many" people? We assimilated a huge percentage of foreigners in a ratio to the population already here in the past, but all of a sudden any more than 0.33% is too much?

11 It should ne noted that the communist WORKERS WORLD PARTY are behind many of these protests just like they were behind many antiwar protests

12 MIB : Well becuase it's not an open continent any more. It was but no longer. And it's the cost. When we assimilated many of the prior generations they did not get free this free that. Why should a Mexican have to follow he same rules everyone else does? Lot's of people want to come and we should let as many come as we can that being said w can't take everyone. It's not fair to say Graeme the Brit. She would like to come over. I'm sure she would like to do it fairly and by the rules. So if the mexicans take all the slots kind of screws every one else including Brits, Costa Ricans so and and so forth. If we still had a big frontier to settle that's different. Now it's just cities. Our need for immigrants is not as large as it used to be. Bummer but true.

13 Posted by Howie at April 12, 2006 12:13 PM I reckon since the author did not put that in it was an ammendment. Howie--there was no amendment making it a felony. That was part of sensenbrenner's original REPUBLICAN bill. He thought that would work to bring out the base. Turns out he got it wrong. Democrats voted down (along with the pro-felony Repubs) an amendment to weaken it, but make no mistake--felony was a Republican idea, a Republican proposal, and it is the Republicans who will and should pay a political price for it.

14 Whatever the bill came out of committee with the felony part and 191 Dems voted against reducing the charge so now who's playing tough. Seems the Dems want to be on both sides except they want to say to the unions, "We'll make em felons" And to the immigrants, "we're your buddy". I always thought the felony was too much for a first offense no other crime invlolved.

15 Well, the Dems were voting to make it non-criminal at any level to be here. Combined with the repubs who wanted it to be a felony, they won. The Republican majority then had a choice--go back, and do a comprehensive bill, like the Senate was planning, or vote for this monstrosity. They chose to vote for this one, gambling that the Dems would be hurt by having voted no on immigration toughness. They guessed wrong. It's going to suck to watch Pete Wilson II hit the Repubs, bigger and harder this time. Hispanics are the WORST voters of any ethnic group, in terms of turnout, even when you control for income and education. But now....the sleeping giant has been awakened, and even Cubans are going to vote against Repubs in record numbers, I think. Not to mention other minorities. Oops...

16 MiB: Many of us fully understand that the "arbitrary" requirements of coming to the US or even becoming a ctitzen are cumbersome (to understate it). What you're missing is not whether we can assimilate any prescribed number of people, but that assimilation becomes more slipshod as the numbers get bigger. You can't deny that assimilation is absolutely necessary to maintaining our national identity. Especially those who are here illegally; they will tend to huddle with those who will protect them and will not feel a part of our society because they know they're not. They don't mingle or interact and by this, they don't learn the language or customs. Those who protect them have a tendency to withdraw too because they know what they're doing is against our laws and there is a certain level of fear in getting caught. I don't think you ever read my response to you a few days ago when this subject was discussed. This current issue has no bearing our social programs. It's the last comment here: http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/169113.php Feel free to respond here if you like. While you've spent a great deal of keyboard time telling us what is wrong with us, you have not given us your solution. So I'll give you mine in brief points: 1) First, secure the borders. Not close them, but secure them - (control them, if you will.) 2) Revamp the system whereby guest workers can come here on a temporary basis. If they abuse it, they lose their status permanently. There are a lot of honest, hard working people that come here and I think we should welcome them, but legally and with comensurate wages and to be certain they pay their fair share of taxes. After they renew and continue to be good, productive societal members they can be eligible for citizenship without a lot of hassel. 3) Lose the PC bull and start profiling. There is no good reason why honest people are refused admission and Taliban officials get to go to an ivy league school. 4)Screw the Democrats in their bid to issue regular licenses to anyone who wants them and to let people vote without ID. Issue the proper ID's and issue "specially marked" licenses to those who are working under the guest worker program. Can't prove citizenship? Well, sorry, you can't vote. 5) Punish "sanctuary" cities. 6) Punish corporations who hire illegals. 7) No social services to those who cannot prove they're here legally. (of course, we'll not ignore those who may be under threat of life and limb and need emergency medical help. But then they go right back to where they came from.) Start showing those who want to be here that being here is a priviledge; not a right. And that they'll be treated with respect if they respect our laws and we won't undermine their doing things right by being lax on everyone else who wants to sneak in. Sounds like a lot? It's not. And it's not unreasonable.

17 Yes there were right before the weren't. Yeah the pooch has been screwed. We tried. They did a good job turning it on it's head. Personlly I'd like for a guest worker to be able to come and work. Cross a the border like an ordinary person. Be able to go home the same way and visit. I'm not mean. Probably not going to happen now so this poor guy gets to keep on hiding and sneaking and getting screwed with no minimum wage no workers comp not seeing his family etc etc. He could have been better off if both sides had worked for a reasonable bill. Politics ate this one. (you can blame both sides or one or the other won't bother me much)

18 Most immigrant groups didn't want the Sensenbrenner bill, even with the amendment, so Dems made a smart parliamentary maneuver. It isn't often that they have figured out stuff like this, in advance, not believed today's polls, but thought about where the issue was heading over the next month or year. but this time, they got it right, and Republicans are on the hot seat now. Incidentally, I personally favor building the highest tech, tightest wall the world has ever seen on our border...and legalizing most of the 11 million that are here. From here on out, though, we control our borders. This is the land border with the greatest income disparity in the WORLD. In no other part of the world does a pretty poor country have this kind of land border with a very rich one. If we don't build a heck of barrier, they will keep coming. We need to have legal, controlled, safe immigration. If Jose and a coyote can get across, Ahmed and a bomb can get across, too.

19 JD, you have a point in saying that it was likely originally Republican wording that suggested making it a felony to be here illegally. But when they were seeking to downgrade it, if the Democrats wanted to really get something done and do the public servant work they swore to do, it was wrong for them to block that change and try to make their political counterparts looks like Satans. Maybe I'm interpreting you wrongly, but it sounds like you're defending the bad actions of the Democrats, when in fact they're both screwed up. The Democrats nor the Republicans even WANT to face this problem. They're behaving like children who don't want to clean their bedrooms as they pout and mess each others beds up when the American public is telling them they're tired of the mess.

20 Ooops. We posted at the same time. I get it now.

21 I had to go consult my Democrat buddy. Ok so he's not a really a hard left Democrat, he is from Texas. He thought felony was a bit much. He understands why they come. He suggested a 12 foot 5000 volt high amperage fence to "charge" em with. He also is against letting illegals stay just because they are already here. So he is more harsh on the issue than I am but I expected that from my Texan buddy.

22 Meanwhile, if Americans leave and come back without notifying the proper authorites, we can be fined thousands of dollars. Of all the enemies we face, our own government is the worst.

23 IM, you make an excellent point. We're more scared of our government than illegal invaders are. There is something deeply, deeply wrong with that.

24 Okay, Howie already has this in his WTW post, and thanks again dude. BUT, I feel it kinda goes here better. Dear President Bush: I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from the US into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this. I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration, quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here. So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my Way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following: 1. Free medical care for my entire family. 2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not. 3. All government forms need to be printed in English. 4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers. 5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history. 6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down. 7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch. 8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access To government services. 9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort To learn local traffic laws. 10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from President Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak English. 11. I plan to fly the US flag from my house top, put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals. 12. I would like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don't enforce any labor laws or tax laws. 13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and Never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on the economy. I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the US from Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely. However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your VP. Thank you so much for your kind help.

25 It should be a felony to be in the US illegally. Do any of you remember a terrorist attack that KILLED 3000 Americans about five years ago? Several of these terrorists took advantage of our weak system to kick the hell out of us, and we are still argueing about this. It's time for the citizens of the US to handle this problem. The government doesn't have the balls to do it.

26 Yes Carlos, there's plenty wrong with it. I no longer respect or recognize the authority of the Federal government on any level, because by its collective refusal to perfom its duties to its citizens by giving more sway to the wishes of criminals and declared enemies of our nation than to We, the People. The government is absolutely corrupt from root to branch, and absolutely unreformable due to the mechanisms put in place to ensure continuity of that corruption. Voting is masturbation, because no honest person can ever be elected or appointed to any position of power; with rare exception, only criminals or those willing to sell out to criminals can attain power; this is demonstrable, incontrovertable fact. America is, or was, a Constituional Republic. The Constitution is the only law of the land; not the government, which would be imperialism, and not the demos, which would be mob rule. No citizen of the United States is Constitutionally bound to recognize any law, obey any directive of the government, or recognize the results of any ballot which contradicts the Constitution, but we are forced to by the threat of violence. I do not believe this is what was intended by the Founders. Soon we will be fighting illegals, muslims, and their liberal Quislings in the streets, and they will have the forces of the government on their side, because they have the power of Political Correctness, which always stands against the Constitution and those who uphold it. We are besieged by enemies, and those of us who are able will have to fight or surrender to slavery at worst and second-class-citizen status at best, which is just about the case now. Or we could just let ourselves and our families be killed by the subhuman savages. The only viable solution is that of 1776. We must arm ourselves and prepare to fight for our very survival, because we have nowhere to go and nobody to help us. Every loyal citizen should buy a military type rifle and at least one thousand rounds of ammunition, because as soon as the shooting starts, there will be no more to be found, except in the hands of illegals, muslims, and the government, of course. Prepare to fight or die; those are your choices.

27 Man, I thought they killed Tim McVeigh...

28 Hey, gutcheck for all you cons here--are you, by your silence, just going to let this go? Read what IM is advocating. Imagine, just for a moment, that someone had posted something a tad liberal. I think that posting would have had volumes of responses. Someone from the far right fringes advocates violent revolt against our government, calls them "subhumans"....and we get what...silence? Someone says elections are entirely fraudulent, and all of our leaders are criminals...and you guys go, ho-hum, just another day at the office? I'm not saying you agree with him. I'm not trying to paint all conservatives by their most radical assholes (as Fox does with blacks, for example, or many here do with Cindy Sheehan and Michael Moore and the left). I'm just saying--by your silence (particularly compared to your noise when anyone posts anything to the left of Barry Goldwater) you leave yourselves open to those who would take that interpretation.

29 round 'em up and rope 'em off.