1 Well if that isn't the definition of irony, I don't know what is.

2 Actually the definition of irony is the use of a word other than it was originally intended /smartass mode

3 Can we send in another hostage negotiator to rescue, the hostage negotiator, that went into the negotiate for the release of the hostages. Kinds of reminds me of something? oh! yes: There was an old lady who swallowed a fly I don't know why she swallowed a fly - perhaps she'll die! There was an old lady who swallowed a spider, That wriggled and wiggled and tiggled inside her; She swallowed the spider to catch the fly; I don't know why she swallowed a fly - Perhaps she'll die! There was an old lady who swallowed a bird; How absurd to swallow a bird. She swallowed the bird to catch the spider, She swallowed the spider to catch the fly; I don't know why she swallowed a fly - Perhaps she'll die!

4 I don't like that definition of irony, because it completely misses the essence of everything that's ironic. We use words in ways other than originally intended all the time, but we don't call it irony. In fact, irony really has nothing whatsoever to do with the meaning of a word, but everything to do with situational usage, i.e. Jimmy Carter criticizing any other President for any reason under the sun, for example.

5 maxie Rusty got ya on the smackdown - don't go all whinny and girlee on us now.

6 Agent Jones says some people are just too untrustworthy.

7 Harmeet Singh is a friend of mine...and I am hoping you all will help in getting him and his friends released by praying ....praying all you can....things are going from bad to worst and this is not how its supposed to be....Its supposed to be going from bad to good....I wish there were something I could do from here but praying is the last resort...

8 Praying is the first resort - the last resort you can not accept or resort to.

9 Hondo, I will say this only once, and as a friend: You aint got a dog in this fight, so STFU.

10 Thank you Improbulus, I have a dog in the fight. More specifically, and more respectfully, I mean Norman Kember. It's gotten pretty frustrating to wait without any news. In a sense that's a good thing because the lack of murder videos and statements of responsibility implies that the hostages are still alive. I will continue to join people like Sairah Khan and many others in prayer.

11 Tell me I am crazy but everything seems to be weird, this is not the way terrorist have worked in the past, some things are different, coud there be a conspiracy going on ??? I mean when they kill someone they show it and in the case of Schulz in the first video of his abduction the video cuts out the people around him and no video on his so called murder ??? just makes no sense. Anyone with ideas on it ?

12 Ok maxie I just couldn't resist.

13 Agent Smith says to Hondo: none of the agents will ever tell you to be silent.

14 I didn't tell him to be silent, I told him to STFU, which, among men who know one another, is quite another thing. But then, the agents, adolescents who seem fixated with retaining their adolescent geekiness, know nothing about men, except the ones they meet in parks after dark.

15 Well hate to say it but...no one can be trusted in the world of Islam.

16 Agent Smith Maxie has an excellent point. You can tell an enemy to go fuck himself; or you can tell a friend to go fuck himself - same word/expression but two different meanings in context. Dr Rusty would consider this a prime example of irony. I consider it a testament to the versatility of the english word - fuck.

17 Yep! Prayer will save him. Works every time.

1 In light of this information, can you explain to me what this means? What prompted this group to kill some hostages, and let others go? What do you make of their silence? Thanks, Jill

2 Speculation has been that they are trying to raise money for their terror operations, but that is just speculation. They also never released their last snuff video of the murder of Ronald Schulz. It may be that they are getting more media savvy and realize there is some propaganda value in keeping the peace activists alive.

3 "It may be that they are getting more media savvy and realize there is some propaganda value in keeping the peace activists alive." Or, more accurately, they realize they've fucked up and kidnapped the wrong people. I mean, not even hardline extremists have their backs on this one. So, what do they do? They can't kill them because they'll drive even more Muslims away from their brand of thinking. But they can't let them go, because then it looks like they've capitulated or have admitted they've fucked up.

4 Also Venom, if they kill them, they risk alienating the rest of the Useful Idiot dhimmis of the CPT, though the chance is small, as no matter what they do, America will take the blame.

5 They killed Margaret Hassan who worked for their shithole of a country for 20 years. These scum will kill anyone...just depends on what side of the bed they wake up on or if their football team loses.

6 Jester, But they aren't dumb (presumably), just evil. Is it possible that they realize they miscalculated in the Hassan and Baldoni cases?

7 Hassan and Baldoni only served to exacerbate America's problems though, since the media went into instant spin cycle in order to deflect the blame from the true criminals onto America.

8 Producing a snuff video that al Jazeera refused to play indicates a serious miscalculation. If, as Rusty says, they're not stupid, the CPT hostages may survive. Btw, linked to this story, but haven't been able to ping your site with a trackback for some time now.

9 Even with the kidnapping of Hassan, you didn't see anywhere near this level of Islamist pleas for her release.

10 Rusty, you de man, man. Congrats on great coverage of the news in Iraq. The MSM has been scooped again, thanks to the Jawa and others in the blogging community. Pajama's rule!

11 Terrorists good, America Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad, you're coming through loud and clear Background. Where ever there is to be evil found on earth, scratch the surface and the U.S is behind it. Get a life hippy.

12 You know I can fix any link that does not suck.

13 Hmm Maryland?

14 rita recieves all of our information but does not necessarily communicate back to us. I read her intel alerts daily and i too have informed her of things and have not heard back from her, but i am confident that she has recieved my messages. if you recall, she has reported on several occassions that these groups are also becoming more conscious and have been recieving "warnings" from their "friends" to be careful of when and where they send out their "communiques" for fear of being caught kudos to both you and rita for picking up on that link between the two groups. somehow i am not surprised. there is always something strange with those who hide their faces. it reminds me of the old southern police forces and the KKK. keep up the excellent work.

15 Margaret Hassan, God Bless her sole, was killed b/c she helped the vicitms of the oil for food scam and knew something she should not have known. This did not sit well with Jaques Chiraq and the Batthists. I do not believe for one second that the Christian Peacemakers who were there for two plus years had no insight into something that did not sit well with someone over there. This is the reason they have been taken and not released. Their organization is very pro Palestinian and one of the Canadians was very active in the Palestinian cause. They f****ed up indeed, just as they did with Daniel Pearl who had pictures taken with Sheik Yassin and just as Zarqawi did by shooting up a Palestinian wedding party in Jordan. But it is most likely too late.

16 "I think their apparent indifference to the worldwide pleas of Muslims from all political persuasions raises an interesting question of whether or not the kidnappers are jihadists as they claim to be." Background, and why would jihadists respond to the "worldwide" pleas of muslims? Isn't it your story that these terrorists aren't true muslims? Talk about a Freudian slip.

17 That's exactly what they claim, Carlos. I eagerly await a response to your question. Eagerly await, but do not expect one.

18 Why are you contacting UFO hunters? Oh wait, that's SETI, not SITE. ha.

19 To answer the commentary: Terrorists bad.... death squads bad. It's not a zero sum game. The "Salvador Option" may have worked against poor peasants in Central American rainforests... but extra judicial assassinations haven't really gotten the Israelis very far now have they? Painting all Muslims as rabid death cultists is as irresponsible as painting all Americans as Halliburton apologists. There is no question that Hamas, Hezbollah, and most of the other known terrorist organizations that jumped on the "free the hostage" bandwagon are merely looking for some cheap publicity. But how do you explain the ordinary people demonstrating every day in the West Bank? How do you explain Muslims in Canadian detention? The fact is the CPT 4 do have credibility amongst Palestinians. That is why they were travelling with Iraqi Palestinians and visiting Sunni clerics. Those are the groups being targeted by Shi'ite death squads. Folks here claim a) they have evidence of files linking IAI to the kidnappers, b) Rita Katz plagiarized the findings. OK... is there any forensics to back up their assertion? Rita Katz has noted in at least one interview that groups actually steal each others tapes in an effort to claim credit. How do you know where the tapes came from? Here's the thing about IAI that raises a question for me... the CPT 4 are well regarded and well known by Palestinians... They are in Iraq investigating death squad activities that target Palestinians. IAI originally included former militants from the Palestine Liberation Front. That is the group started by Abu Abbas. The PLF are allied with Fatah. Even Fatah's militant wing, Al Aqsa Martyrs, is calling for the release of the hostages....

20 I'm quite skeptical of the reaction from so many that if terrorist groups are calling for their release then, "by golly" there must be something to it. Let us not forget what prompted the Shias to behave in the manner that they were subjected to for decades. I'm not condoning what they've been caught doing - since we've found at least two instances of them torturing people (real torture) in basements or prisons. So don't get me wrong. But it seems to me that there's something terribly wrong with those who are quick to react to the terrorists being upset or the thinly veiled, underlying hope that they can find Americans involved somehow. Yet, they continue with the stark silence on the bleak atmosphere found in Fallujah with copious amounts of blood, executed bodies and those fortunate enough to be found chained and tortured, but still alive. Not to mention their lack of concern for all the other hostages brutally murdered who never did a thing to anyone. The groups screaming bloody murder about mistreatment at the hands of Shias while remaining silent on the daily murders of innocent people in Iraq and everywhere else in the world by Sunnis, Wahabis and Qutbs is what I find disgusting and duplicitous. And they make fun of the US with their slogan "Don't do as I do, do as I say"? Hello? Background Noise can barely contain his glee at the hope of further discrediting more Americans. No matter how far he has to stretch truth or what weak connections he has to make. If he wants an explanation of those "ordinary people" demonstrating everyday - they're doing that in larger numbers everywhere. They're sick and damn tired of terrorism, expecially now that they realize they're tragets too. They're demonstrating in Jordan, Pakistan India and even here in the US. They're releasing some pretty strong statements denouncing terrorism in all its forms and the press is largely ignoring it or merely mentioning these statements as an aside. But let the terror groups utter a single word an it's splashed across the front page. As I've said before, the CPTers don't care when people are mistreated unless the mistreatment is a retaliation or defense. They're anti-war and there's no war unless someone fights back. And CPT's goal is to document anything wrong, no matter how minute, committed by those who fight back - completely ignoring who started it and what atrocities they may have committed. I find it all deplorable and Background Noise and others play willingly into their propaganda scheme.

21 I have four comments in response to the follow ups on my original post. First, the issue of the IAI raises questions for me. They were founded in part by former PLF members. Given the fact the CPT 4 are well known and generally adored by Palestinians, it seems odd that a group containing PLF fighters would do anything to harm them. Especially when the most radical elements of Fatah (e.g. Al Aqsa Martyrs) are calling for their release. Second, for those who think I am painting this as "terrorist good ....America bad".... let be very clear about my motivations here. There are two. First is doing whatever can be done to increase the survivability of the hostages. Since this hostage ordeal began, most efforts on behalf of the hostages were aimed at publicizing Muslim appeals for their release because everyone assumed jihadists were holding them. These do not seem to be having any impact. If the kidnappers are related to death squads, let us hope the people who have control over them realize that if these hostages are killed, even US major media will have to cover the story in some detail. The reason they went to Iraq will inevitably become a topic of discussion. That would naturally focus worldwide attention on the "special police and military units" they were investigating in the first place. Third has to do with our obligation to support our troops. I know people who have been deployed. I know people who ARE deployed. I know people who have lost children. The people serving are not an abstraction to me. The vast majority of Americans serving in Iraq are decent men and women trying as hard as they can to do the right thing even though they are working under terrible conditions. Someone talked about the soldier administering morphine to a dying child. Who can forget the soldiers who defended the Bagdhad orphanage during the early looting period? Not everything is so dramatic. The kid who was killed... he was building roads. He was making things better. I have a whole new appreciation for highways now. We take highways for granted. Although this site doesn't accept BBC links, the fact is the gruesome report of tortured prisoners found in the basement of the Interior Ministry reported it was American troops who found them. The death squads and the "Salvador Option" are an insult to the men and women who are decent. They sully our reputation and mock the values people are dying to defend. I feel obliged to honor their sacrifice and defend our values by having the courage to ask direct questions, expect honest answers, and demand accountability from policymakers. Finally, I am not looking for some cheap way to use this situation to voice my opposition to invading Iraq before we finished in Afghanistan. There are plenty of other things I can point to that more directly support that argument. I am not interested in arguing that here. All I will say is that before we went in a woman who grew up in a military family, and married into a military family said it best in her letter to the editor: "I am not haunted by the fear that my brother will be sent to war. I believe there are beliefs and causes worth taking risks for, worth fighting and dying for. Rather, I am haunted by the fear that he will be sent to war thoughtlessly, carelessly." -- Cara Cannon Byington (Jan. 15, 2003)

22 Oyster: Although my prior response addressed criticims and attributions you and others have raised, I wanted to directly address your mistaken attribution about the Christian Peacemaker Teams in general and Tom Fox in particular. They are not turning a blind eye to one side's atrocities. They reject ALL violence. Tom Fox left a blog http://waitinginthelight.blogspot.com where he discusses these matters in detail. His first entry makes it clear that he is motivated in part by the quote from Jesus found in the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas: "Don't lie and don't do what you hate because all things are revealed under heaven." He specifically talks about how confronting soldiers and kidnappers will require him to move beyond anger and fear. That is very hard to do. But it is noble. It is honest. It is important. It is the way out of this mess. Fox and Kember are not kids. They are seasoned men who have struggled against violence for decades. They do that out of a compassionate expression of their faith. It may be hard for you to believe they love their fellow country men as much as the people they seek to help. You have to accept that on faith. I agree with you that ordinary people around the world are speaking out against terrorism because they simply want to live their lives. I also agree with you that media coverage of the spectacular has routinely crowded out the voices of reason. It enrages me that zealots on all sides routinely betray the aspirations of the people they claim to defend. I carry no brief for terrorists. I don't believe Hamas, Hezbollah, or Islamic Jihad love Palestinians any more than Saddam Hussein did. Anyone who uses children as cannon fodder is wicked. There is no other way to view that. What sets men like Fox, Loney, Sooden, and Kember apart from most people is they hold the captives and captors in their prayers. They struggle to find that place beyond anger and fear. When I think of King Hussein's eulogy for Yitzhak Rabin, I think that is what he was talking about when he spoke of "the camp of peace" when he addressed his comments to "those who live in darkness who are the enemies of life" and said "this is where we stand. This is our camp. May God bless you with the realization that you must join it and we pray that He will, but otherwise we are not ashamed, nor are we afraid, nor are we anything but determined to fulfill the legacy for which my friend fell." I remember when he gave that eulogy how the words tumbled out of him with a force I could only describe as a wind that came through time. It wasn't until later that I learned he was a direct descendent of the Prophet Muhhamed. Before the war Mike Kelly called the people opposing it "Liars, Frauds, and Hypocrites". He mellowed a bit when it was pointed out that he was maligning many honest people of faith. He declared they were "useful idiots" dancing to the Worker's World Party's A.N.S.W.E.R. When it was pointed out that many of the mothers marching on the Mall were motivated more by Mark and Luke than Marx and Lenin, he modified his tone. He spoke about the horrors he witnessed with his own eyes in Kuwait and the need to confront evil. When the war came, he didn't sit behind a desk in Boston and write testosterone-laden cant. He went to Iraq. He didn't go because he wanted a thrill ride as an "embedded journalist" doing victory laps like Ollie North. He went because he felt it was important to witness and report honestly on the war he truly believed needed to be fought. He died too young and we are the poorer for it. But he left us a gift. The final question in the final paragraph of the final column for the "Atlantic," published after his death, said it all. It is a question worth pondering. It is a question that will haunt the men who took us to war from now until the end of history. "The question is whether the employment of this unfathomable power will be largely for good, leading to the liberation of a tyrannized people and the spread of freedom, or largely for bad, leading to imperialism and colonialism,with a consequent corruption of America's own values and freedoms." - Mike Kelly , "What Now?", The Atlantic Monthly , May 2003 With that gift comes an obligation to write that future history mindful of the legacy we were given so we may leave a legacy worthy of those who will follow.

23 They are getting smarter about what they post and where. They have been caught too many times. I'm having jihad troll withdrawls. That has got to be teh funnest part of Jawa. They come and post and we put em up on the front page or take em down. Finally they realize posting here is not so bright. Darn. But really the commentators and writers here deserve a big old pat on the back. We have trolled many into giving themselves away. I've not posted on that for a bit becuase ti's just not there. As soon as I see one thought boom we'll let him have it. Filthy had one last week go over there and check it out.

24 According to Background noise, King Hussein is a direct descendant of Mohammed. WHAT? Somebody give me some proof of this. Please!

25 Through his great-grandfather, the prophet Mohammad was himself a Hashemite, a subdivision of the Quraysh tribe of what is now Saudi Arabia. The most revered Hashemite line then passed through Hassan, son of the ProphetÂ’s daughter Fatima and her husband Ali, the fourth caliph. Hassan was the last of this line to hold the disputed claim to the caliphate, but his progeny eventually established themselves as hereditary emirs of Mecca, the role continuing under Ottoman rule. The last of the line to rule as emir of Mecca and King of Hijaz along the Red Sea was Hussain bin Ali. Ibn Saudi, the founder of Saudi Arabia, conquered the Hijaz in 1924 and deposed Hussein, thus ending Hashemite rule of the region and the holy places of Islam. The new Saudi dynasty, supported by the Wahhabi Muslim sect, proclaimed itself Guardians of the Shrines of Islam HusseinÂ’s dispossessed sons, Abdullah and Faisal, were later placed on the newly-created thrones of Amman and Baghdad, respectively. The Hashemite line survived in Jordan but not in Baghdad. Faisal was assassinated on July 14, 1958 in a military coup that soon led to the rise of Saddam Hussein at the head of the Baath regime. In 1951, Abdullah was murdered by a Muslim zealot at the door of al Aqsa mosque on JerusalemÂ’s Temple Mount. Two years later, his grandson Hussein succeeded to the Jordanian throne as a boy king. He reigned until his death in 1999, when he was succeeded by his eldest son Abdullah II. http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=921 At the time of his passing on February 7, 1999, His Majesty was the longest serving executive head of state in the world. Of great significance to Muslims throughout the world, the late King Hussein was also the forty-second generation direct descendant of the Prophet Muhammad. http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/biography.html His Majesty King Abdullah II is the 43rd generation direct descendant of the Prophet Muhammad. http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/king_abdullah2.html

26 By there very words and deeds, the CPTers have taken a side in this. To say they deplore the acts of terrorism, yet, carefully document every misstep of those who seek to liberate the oppressed and focus on what they believe to be the motives of the liberators, portraying them as wrong-doers at every opportunity, is disingenuous at best and criminal at worst. I stand by my assessment. Their actions belie what they say. I find them to be misled souls. I don't believe they're evil. I believe they truly think that what they do is just and correct. I think they're wrong. That's all.

27 I'm not surprised they're all related with the amount of inbreeding in the muslim world.

28 Ah the CPTs! Hmmmmm ... If they're killed how would this play out to a western audience? Why do people insist on believing that the jidhadists are concerned with western audiences for anything except shock and fear factor? How would this play out to an arab/islamist street audience - and the jidhadists themselves? That's the real question.

29 8ackground: How long have you been out of the Iraqi asylum?

30 Oyster, with all due respect for your opinion, and no small respect at that, I must say this: "Misled souls" my ass. They are flaming liberals who hate America and would aid terrorists against us in any way, because according to them, we're the only evil in the world. You're just too nice a person to believe the awful truth, and bless you for it, but I think you've given them too much credit. People who are so mentally defective should not be allowed to walk free, much less be given any legitimacy.

31 IM, at first I thought you were going to correct me on using "there" instead of "their" in my first sentence ;-) (I hate it when I screw up like that) But ... point taken, sir.

32 Howie wrote: They are getting smarter about what they post and where. They have been caught too many times. I'm having jihad troll withdrawls. That has got to be teh funnest part of Jawa. They come and post and we put em up on the front page or take em down. Finally they realize posting here is not so bright. Darn. But really the commentators and writers here deserve a big old pat on the back. We have trolled many into giving themselves away. First off, it's a little on the juvenile side to deride someone as a troll when you can't address any of the comments in a substantive way. That's just lazy. Second, I realize this is your private little playground and First Amendment issues don't apply. That's why I make my points respectfully and without invective. Third, and this is the most important for you in particular. The reason I stumbled across this corner of the net was you were claiming to have confirmation about the likely identity of the kidnappers. Instead, you have taken the intellectually untenable position of saying: a) Rita Katz plagiarized your work and b) Rita Katz confirms your finding Plagiarism and confirmation are not synonyms.

33 Ackground has realized I enjoy games!!!!! And if I label a troll a troll it's just that. Personally when some jihadist moron posts stuff like. "Bush must die", "F*uck all Christians", F*uck the Virgin Mary" Death to this that and the other I'll call em a jihadist troll all I want. Hey you guys it's a news flash. Howie is a bit juvenile and enjoys blog games with Jihadist trolls and loves to watch and catch the little bastards. It's just like fishin don't tell me you don't like fishin.

34 Howie: NEWSFLASH: There's a reason they call it fishing instead of catching. Speaking of clarification.... care to distinquish your claim of confirmation from plaigerism, or did you get caught with your pants down?

35 Uh would you care to read the authors name Mr. is probably greg.

36 Shackleford posted it. CTT said he has also sent SITE the info. You have said You know I can fix any link that does not suck. I went back to review it and apparently the whole diatribe about the plagiarism has been snipped from this thread. So correct me if I'm wrong: You in charge of this site or not? You exercise editorial discretion or not? Regardless of who answers it, the question is still out there based on material originally provided by this thread: Did SITE "confirm" or "plagiarize" the evidence cited? Pick one. It can't be both.

37 Rusty can speak for himself he's a big boy.

38 Oh yeah. Links eh. I don't get the hostility. I tried your CNN link and sure enough it was rejected. I will fix links for you but they would be subject to my own judgement of rather the link was worth the trouble or not. I'd do this for just about any one for just about any link. But that was just a heads up that just because you submit one does not mean I will post it but I may post it.

39 Yeah not cathing any becaue the deep freeze is full maybe.

40 never in a million years would i say rita katz plagerized or snipped anything from me. i merely said i have reported things to her and not heard back from her. sorry but this is a "we" thing and as far as i am concerned, i do not need the credit. she and i are definately "fighting" (and neither of us want to be by the way) on the same side, i can assure you of that. but thank your for your concern mr. noise

41 howie/rusty did you hear the latest "chatter" about the peaceworkers and what they are saying "to do" with them? i won't post it here as i do not want to violate any rules or cause any trouble, but i may post it at mine later on, waiting for some confirmations.

42 CTT .... maybe you missed the opening lines of the post that started this thread: Islamic Army in Iraq Link to Peace Activist Hostages Confirmed The Jawa Report was the first media outlet to report that there was a possible connection between the Islamic Army in Iraq and the Swords of Righteousness Brigade, the group responsible for kidnapping four Western peace activists in Iraq, in a November 29th posting. In fact, what is said by the director of the SITE Institute in this Canadian National Post article comes awfully close to plagiarism. [emphasis added] Hence my question: Did SITE confirm the finding independently or did they parrot it? You can appreciate how those are qualitatively different. One increases credibility and the other makes you look like an echo chamber.

43 Strange that you mention the word plagiarism.

44 I didn't say she 'plagiarized' it, I said it 'comes awfully close to plagiarism'. That means what she is saying is strikingly similar to what I have been saying. Hence, the qualified statement. But, thanks for playing.

45 Oh...well that comes awfully close to answering it... You are awfully close to being an echo chamber.... or you are awfully close to being full of crap.... or awfully close to both. Thanks for clearing that up.

1 I know this might sound a bit......bad but, I don't think all this is on the up and up here. Smells fishy.

2 We are all suffering from the same fate, and that is the occupation of the American troops and the British troops which have brought me to this condition funny, I could of swore that he jumped aboard a plane, with his bible and fellow peaceniks to Iraq, who knew that America, and British troops got him into that condition?

3 How do you interpret all of this? Your insight would be appreciated.

4 Great job, CPTers! Now look at you. Morons.

5 This stinks to high heaven. I believe this is a conspiracy and that the "hostages" are actually the masterminds, and that the whole purpose of this exercise is to get prisoners released, score a propaganda victory, and possibly raise lots of money for the terrorists and their liberal dhimmis.

6 Don't be stupid. These guys are not faking their kidnapping. There lives are on the line. They may be stupid hippies but they are not faking their kidnapping and they don't deserve this. And once and for all, Guiliana Segrena did not fake her kidnapping. When they are beheaded then maybe you will believe me.

7 I've got to disagree here...the orange jumpsuits are not a good sign. I think death is on the cards. These peaceniks will learn the hard way. Anyone taking bets?

8 Okay George, calm down. They may not be colluding with the terrorists, though I still think they are, but even so, they're still useful dhimmi idiots, and either way, if they get gacked, I'm not gonna lose sleep over it.

9 One thing i'll grant these insurgent scum, they are creative with their names, Swords or righteous.. Martyrdom brigades etc I wonder if any of their supporters have ever wondered why is it that these thugs claiming to be for truth and justice are always masked while making their cowardly threats on camera. Why is it that these brave heroes of resistance have to tie up hostages and then hold a knife to their throats.

10 I think the American and British hostages will be fortunate to get out of Iraq alive. The others I am not so sure about. They knew the risks associated with going to Iraq and attempting to do what they were doing. In my opinion, it was stupid of them, but they still do not deserved to be murdered because of their stupidity.

11 The orange jumpsuits are a bad sign. I've updated the post to reflect that.

12 George, they're morons and we like to make fun of them, but obviously they don't deserve a hideous death by decapitation. (feathering and tarring them would have done just fine). You'll find that if worse comes to worse the mood around here will be somewhat dampened and even sedate. Nobody will be laughing then.

13 I believe this is a setup to make "you know who" look like the bad guys. Shouldn't be much longer until they are released with a long list of demands and telling the world how nice their captors were. Could be wrong. Time will tell.

14 the timestamp in bottom right says 5 12 2005?

15 That would be 12/05/2005 to us. Most of the world puts day first, then month. Then again, that's assuming that the terrorists know how to program their camcorders...............

16 Rusty i meant the video is 5th so that must be a bad sign it 7th here so guessing they have done all the videos already which would mean their fate already sealed?

17 Very good point. But is that a bad sign or a good sign?

18 bad, how can they extend deadline 48hours from 5th that would make it 7th, bad sign

19 I know but still, just the thought of them losing their heads makes me sick. The canadians may be spared since there are no Canadian troops in Iraq(As far as I know). The American and the Briton will probably die unless they are rescued.

20 The announcement of the deadline extension came seperate from the video.

21 Looks more and more like willing "hostages". Sorry, but I won't shed a tear for them if they are killed: o They went to Iraq to interfere with the operations of allied forces, including Iraqi police. o They're associated with a group that also runs interference for terrorists in Israel. o Like Rusty said, they're saying what they believe. o Like Szgrena, they're hanging out with the people they agree with. o Any rescue attempt will put the lives of allied forces in jeopardy, solely so these creeps could get their 15 minutes. Their deaths will be as tragic as the deaths of any other collaborators.

22 I don't doubt for one minute they are willing participants in this little charade, but that doesn't mean they still may not lose their heads. Buy the ticket, take the ride.

23 George, if the Canadians should be spared for not having troops, why kidnap these people at all? After all, they were doing the terrorists' work for them, spreading anti-US propaganda. But I'm at least halfway in the camp that thinks this may be a setup; too many similarities to the Sgrena setup...er...incident. Why blindfolds all of a sudden?

24 I don't know what to think about this. It's obvious they don't mind saying what they are saying because they are already against the war and are probably used to deriding Blair and Bush all the time. They actually could be in a lot of trouble, and of course, our boys are probably looking for them, but with the wolf they've been crying even before this, it's hard to know if they are telling the truth or not. If they're not, I might go kidnap them myself! (kidding)

25 I've been away for a while. Sorry for not commenting previously. I spoke today with a friend of Norman Kember's who has verified that the statement he delivered is in his typical idiom and is in keeping with statements he has made consistently over the past number of years. In other words, his statement and that of Mr. Fox were likely given willingly and without significant prompting or duress on the part of the kidnappers. That said, their treatment does appear to have worsened and the appearance of chains, blindfolds, and orange jumpsuits does not bode well. As an organization, CPT has generally taken the stance that the American occupation of Iraq is a dangerously destabilizing force within the region and is one of the 'root sources' of the current violence. That's not to say that an American pullout would result in some sort of immediate and magical harmony but rather that the people of Iraq already have the means of resolving their own disputes and will be able to do so more peacefully and effectively without the duress and violence inherent in foreign occupation. They will still require the support of the international community to do so but a contingent of bobby officers under Iraqi supervision and invitation will go further than an equivalent contingent of uninvited marines. As for these hostages, the 48-hour extension to the deadline is a very good sign and is hopefully indicative of a softening of the kidnappers' previously hardline stance. Most importantly, it seems to indicate a desire, however tentative, for some form of dialog. Their reference to "the statements of the British Foreign Minister" is a reassuring confirmation that they are hearing some of the press and media reports and are presumably aware of the widespread calls for the hostages' release. By its nature, hostage-taking is an act of brinksmanship and statements released by either side often involve a significant amount of posturing. The lives of these four men, especially the American & Briton, are still very much at risk but there does appear to be some reason to hold out hope for their safe release. My own personal suspicion is that the hostage-takers are considering the release of the Canadian hostages but will continue to hold the American and Briton as bargaining chips. If that is the case, I suspect they will start with the release of Mr. Sooden on Saturday or shortly thereafter. Given the reputation of Mr. Loney, I wouldn't put it past him to resist an offered release until such time that Mr. Fox and Mr. Kember are also freed. All of that is simply supposition on my part, however, and I suspect this story will take a few more unexpected turns before we hear the end of it. Hopefully those turns will be for the better rather than for the worse.

26 It sounds from Rob's description that Kember is some dewey-eyed idealist who thinks that only if it weren't for us mean ol' Men and our diry ol' guns the world would be a decent place for butterflies and fairies. And I don't mean that in a demeaning way, but to illustrate that liberals are simply incapable of understanding how the people who live on the rough side of the tracks do business. Kember has willingly walked into the lion's den, knowing full well the inevitable consequences of his actions, and accepting them fully, and so I will not lose one wink of sleep over him, because as Hunter S. Thompson said; you but the ticket, you take the ride.

27 Now wait a minute ... these guys said they didn't want anyone to do anything to save them from their fate. Now they ask that we do something to affect their release. Which is it? Do they want help, or not? Because it looks to me now like they're not so ready to "die by the thousands".

28 Hi, You will have to excuse me because I am not very knowledgeable about these things. What I am wonderig is, why do you suppose that the pleas from radicals and respected Muslims for the CPTers' release have seemed to have fallen on deaf ears? True, the kidnappers have extended the deadline, but they must know that their demands are unreasonable and will never be met. What do you suspect their real motive is and why do you think they haven't listened to revered Muslims? I do not believe that this is a set-up, so please tell me thoughts that you have about all of this that do not include the set-up theory... Do you think that they may be just trying to save face now? Thanks a lot.

29 Oyster and Improb, don't be ridiculous. You've heard my explanation enough times by now that you're obviously trolling. As an organization, CPT has realistic and reasonable objectives within Iraq and a clearly defined methodology for achieving them. That's more than can be said about the US military in this particular conflict. As for CPT declining all assistance in attaining their team members' release, that's also ridiculous. Through their humanitarian work over the past decade, CPT has built a broad web of relationships within the Muslim and international communities, winning the respect of enemies as well as friends. It is on the basis of those relationships and that respect that such an unprecedented range of groups and individuals are now calling for their release. CPT has welcomed and encouraged these statements. What CPT has not welcomed is any attempt to rescue them through violence or ransom. To be frank, these calls from within the Muslim world for a peaceful resolution are precisely what has resulted in this two-day extension. The US military doesn't even have a clue where the kidnappers are hiding out and I can assure you there's nothing they've done to win this 2-day reprieve and nothing they can do to ensure these four men's safe release. Jill, I'm very confident that this is not a setup on CPT's part. It's just not the way they operate. I also don't believe the calls for reprieve from within the Muslim community have fallen on deaf ears. If anything, it is precisely these calls that have stayed the kidnappers' hands and will hopefully still earn the CPT members' release. As I mentioned previously, these situations typically involve a lot of bravado and posturing. This group is being very careful not to show signs of weakness. I believe what they're looking for now is a way out of this predicament where they do not lose face and its up to the rest of the world to allow that. According to classic conflict resolution theory, the key lies in shifting the debate to the point where a mutually acceptable solution can be found. Once that's been achieved, then these four men can walk free.

30 Okay George, calm down. They may not be colluding with the terrorists, though I still think they are, but even so, they're still useful dhimmi idiots, and either way, if they get gacked, I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. That statement speaks volumes when it comes to defining the typical NeoConservative Christian. These hostages are Christian also. They have a conviction that this war is bad based on their faith and what they read in the Bible, and they chose to try and do something about it, instead of sitting in front of a computer monitor passing judgment on those they disagree with. I am glad that you are able to sleep at night -- it just shows you have no conscience.

31 Political Penguin, shooting for gravitas, but instead landing on ridiculous, responded to this that I wrote: "Okay George, calm down. They may not be colluding with the terrorists, though I still think they are, but even so, they're still useful dhimmi idiots, and either way, if they get gacked, I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. Wherein he said: "That statement speaks volumes when it comes to defining the typical NeoConservative Christian." Yeah that's great, except that I'm not NeoConservative (whatever the hell that means; the people over at Stormfront accused me of being one, as well as a Jew, I guess the terms are synonymous), and I haven't been a Christian of any flavor in years, but rather I'm a pretty hardcore atheist (orthodox), and don't care one damn for the mixing of church and state. Sorry ol' Penguie, but you choked on that one. "These hostages are Christian also. They have a conviction that this war is bad based on their faith and what they read in the Bible, and they chose to try and do something about it, instead of sitting in front of a computer monitor passing judgment on those they disagree with." Yet I'm in no danger of getting my head chopped off, since it was they, and not I, who walked into this mess, fully knowing the consequences of their actions. Tough break, but oh well, they're all big boys, and should know better. "I am glad that you are able to sleep at night -- it just shows you have no conscience." Oh I have a conscience, I just don't waste it on idiots, murderers, or those who support or enable them. Your comments betray you as nothing more than a simpering, whining, snivelling, bedwetting punkass liberal, and you should just STFU and leave the important stuff to the responsible adults. Buh-bye now.

32 hey penguin, screw them http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/4/1/144156/3224/16#16 and fuck you. you are not entitled to judge anyone on the right.

33 Rob wrote: "As an organization, CPT has realistic and reasonable objectives within Iraq..." Yeah, it's called America loses. "...and a clearly defined methodology for achieving them." That part's called giving aid and comfort to the enemy". "That's more than can be said about the US military in this particular conflict." You goddamn stupid liberal fuck, you don't fucking deserve to breathe the same air as our soldiers. Our military has liberated those people from the most murderous tyrant of the last fifty years, with more than 2000 making the ultimate sacrifice, and thousands more maimed for life, yet you want only for the terrorists to win, so fuck you and I hope you die soon and in great pain you goddamn fucking liberal traitor piece of shit moron. "As for CPT declining all assistance in attaining their team members' release, that's also ridiculous." No, what was rediculous was their being there in the first place. "Through their humanitarian work over the past decade, CPT has built a broad web of relationships within the Muslim and international communities, winning the respect of enemies as well as friends." And when your friends are the enemies of your country, You become a traitor, and you lose all credibility with your countrymen, though you may gain some with your enemies, though not necessarily enough to prevent them from killing you anyway. Oops on them! "It is on the basis of those relationships and that respect that such an unprecedented range of groups and individuals are now calling for their release." Yeah they've got some relationships all right, they're good dhimmis, and valuable for terrorist propaganda purposes, so even CAIR is calling for their release, a new thing. "CPT has welcomed and encouraged these statements. What CPT has not welcomed is any attempt to rescue them through violence or ransom." Good then, so you'll agree that I'm right in not losing sleep over them? They knew what they were getting into, so why mess up their plans? It's obvious they have a martyr complex, so I say give 'em what they want. Good and hard. "To be frank, these calls from within the Muslim world for a peaceful resolution are precisely what has resulted in this two-day extension." Lots of calls eh? Funny, we're not hearing much about them. Maybe you're confusing disinterested silence with concern. "The US military doesn't even have a clue where the kidnappers are hiding out and I can assure you there's nothing they've done to win this 2-day reprieve and nothing they can do to ensure these four men's safe release." Frankly, they shouldn't care that much, because they've got schools and hospitals to guard from your "freedom fighters". Besides, they don't want our help, right? "Jill, I'm very confident that this is not a setup on CPT's part." Did you get that news from the antenna on your tinfoil hat? "It's just not the way they operate." Heh. It is now. It seems they weren't fully apprised of the plans by their news friends, or maybe they were, either way, not really our concern what happens to them, especially since they don't want us to help them. "I also don't believe the calls for reprieve from within the Muslim community have fallen on deaf ears." Not deaf, just indifferent. "If anything, it is precisely these calls that have stayed the kidnappers' hands and will hopefully still earn the CPT members' release." Or they realize their bluff has been called, perhaps? "As I mentioned previously, these situations typically involve a lot of bravado and posturing." Which appeals to small-minded terrorist lovers to no end. "This group is being very careful not to show signs of weakness. I believe what they're looking for now is a way out of this predicament where they do not lose face and its up to the rest of the world to allow that." So we should give them what they want to keep them from being embarrassed? Riiiiiiight. "According to classic conflict resolution theory, the key lies in shifting the debate to the point where a mutually acceptable solution can be found." Yeah that'll work with people who chop off heads and send car bombs into elementary schools. Idiot. How about an older classic conflict resolution theory? Yeah, this one states that you find the sons of bitches and kill them and everyone who is associated with them. See, that route works better with savages like islamofascists, who only understand crushing force, and see anything else as weakness. "Once that's been achieved, then these four men can walk free." With high-fives all around for a successfully executed propaganda operation.

34 Hi, I have never felt so much hate oozing from someone's writing in my life. I think that this blog is, for the most part, really informative and intelligent, talking about real issues. Why can't we stick to objective, intellectual discussion without damning everyone who shares different opinions? Such black and white thinking contributes to blindness and hate and benefits no one.

35 Oh I have a conscience, I just don't waste it on idiots, murderers, or those who support or enable them. So, since our very presence over there is "enabling" the insurgency, you don't waste too much time thinking about it? I said your response was typical of the NeoConservative "Christian" -- I never actually accused you of being Christian. The description is an oxymoron. Besides, you don't have to be coy, you know exactly what the "New Conservatism" is all about, and it has very little to do with true Conservatism. screw them http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/4/1/144156/3224/16#16 and fuck you. you are not entitled to judge anyone on the right. Entitled? I can judge whomever I please. I see you have no problem judging people. The difference is, I don't celebrate or wish for the death of those I disagree with. I have never felt so much hate oozing from someone's writing in my life. I think that this blog is, for the most part, really informative and intelligent, talking about real issues. Why can't we stick to objective, intellectual discussion without damning everyone who shares different opinions? Such black and white thinking contributes to blindness and hate and benefits no one. Ah, finally, a sane voice.

36 Jill...the hate stems from reality. I was once a very tolerant person, alas tolerance gets nowhere with certain people. Hard action will change the world. Try interacting with a few muslims or observe them amongst our societies and you will soon start to hate them. If people had stopped Hitler earlier many more lives would have been saved. The muslims are just as much (if not more) a threat to western values. Direct action is needed.

37 Hi Jester, You say "Try interacting with a few Muslims or observe them amongst our society and you will soon start to hate them" - That is exactly the same type of black and white thinking I was referring to in the previous post. I have met some Muslims and the ones that I met are beautiful people. And then you proceed to say "If people had stopped Hitler earlier many more lives would have been saved" Of course, I agee with you. But don't you see that your thinking advocates the same hatred toward the Muslims in our society like he did toward the Jews? (I am not saying that you are like Hitler, don't get me wrong, I am just pointing out that your thinking seems similar and please correct me if I am mistaken). I don't think that mass labelling has ever solved problems or contributed to humanity as a whole. Why do we always try to make ourselves separate from each other? I am not saying that we shouldn't protect our values (freedom, etc.), though I am starting to wonder if some vices (hate, stereotyping, self-righteousness)have become an overriding mantra that is destroying us from the inside. I am only trying to create dialogue, and to understand where people are coming from...I am not writing to insult anyone, I just want to understand.

38 Try interacting with a few muslims or observe them amongst our societies and you will soon start to hate them. I live in a community with a mosque, AND a synagogue right down the street. Around the corner from that, there is a Catholic church. I am surrounded by people of many different faiths and nationalities and we all get along quite well. Your hate stems from feeling insecure with yourself, not from what another person believes or acts. Hate is irrational fear.

39 There are two possibilities. First, this is a setup to try and extort ransomn money for the terrorists. These peace-niks are there trying to help fund these scum bags. If this is true a demand for money will be coming. Second, this is on the up and up and these peace-niks will have their heads chopped off. This is a very acceptible end for me. As long as we don't give them any money its a win, win situation.

40 Jester, I used to know tons of muslims in college and they were excellent friends to me. Every single muslim I've ever met I liked. I do have one story that in hindsight is a bit troubling though. The muslims I knew were all elite rich types back home in Pakistan, palestine and the Gulf states. Generally, they were religiously devout, but of the "moderate" variety if you get my meaning. They partied like the rest of us, smoked cigarettes, and a bit of weed too, but no alcohol because that is forbidden in the Koran. Swell guys all of them. Then Salman Rushdie wrote his book and the ayatollahs sentenced him to death. As a good freedom of speech type of Liberal I was back then, I was outraged. But when all of my muslim buddies came out in favor of the fatwa, I was shocked. I couldn't believe the things these so-called moderates were saying about Rushdie and how he deserved death for disrespecting the prophet. What a transformation. I argued with them to no avail. It was as if someone had thrown water on a mogwai and they turned into gremlins. I was naive back then, and now I understand that even moderate muslims don't think like us. That doesn't mean they're unpleasant evil people. And it doesn't mean we can't coexist. But it has to be under our rules, not theirs. They don't think like us. Get that into your thick skulls, you naive Libs.

41 Hi Improb, Uh... It looks like I touched a nerve. Sorry for getting you all riled up but please don't expect me to react in kind. As for an American withdrawal being perceived as a 'loss' situation, it once again comes down to shifting the parameters of the debate. The US, like the kidnappers of these four men, is engaged in a very serious game of brinksmanship and bravado. The solution is to find an exit strategy that is acceptable to all sides and does not cause anyone, the US included, to lose face. I don't know what that exit strategy is but you bet your ass I'm looking for it. As for me not deserving to breathe the same air as the US soldiers in Iraq, let me state once and for all that, despite being a pacifist, I am firmly in support of the individual US soldiers. They've been lied to, asked to perform unspeakable acts, and put in harm's way in an ill-conceived and provocative war that is distracting the world from the very real threat of terrorism. 2,000 American soldiers and an untold number of Iraqi civilians and combatants are dead and for what? To exact vengeance for a horrible act of terrorism in which Iraq played no part? To find weapons of mass destruction that were never there? To depose a violent dictator that America itself trained, supplied, and brought to power in the first place? To enable, empower, justify, and breed the very terrorist forces that we should be over in Afghanistan fighting? To further line the pockets of the already rich and powerful? To impose a new puppet government that isn't as interested in tugging at the strings? Don't bother calling me a traitor or an enemy of truth, justice, and the American Way because that's the last thing I'll ever be. And don't blame me if you haven't been hearing the widespread calls for these hostages release. Sorry, but unless you have four CPT workers handcuffed in your basement, you're simply not the target audience. The fact remains that the parameters of the debate are shifting and there are people actively working to secure the release of these men in a peaceful manner while you jack off in vitriol and vinegar in front of your monitor. Thanks, I gotcha. Move on. As for me calling the kidnappers or even Iraqi insurgents in general "freedom fighters," would you care to provide a quote? Sorry, there aren't any. I've been very consistent in saying that the violence on both sides has been detestable and counterproductive. I don't believe in freedom fighters. I believe in peace builders. I believe in non-violence. I believe in the integrity of innocent civilians who suffer at the wrong end of a soldier's gun or a terrorist's plane or an occupier's checkpoint or a suicide bomber's detonation. So quote me on that rather than putting lies in my mouth and claiming their mine. As for the antennae on my tinfoil hat, maybe I should get one. Tell me, does it block out the hate? While I've never been a member of CPT, I've following their actions since 1993 and know a number of people who have worked with CPT both on the front lines and at the executive level. I also take the time to Google their website and inform myself about the debates at hand. While I don't speak as a representative of CPT I consider myself a uniquely informed citizen within the context of the audience here at Jawa. When I have reason to be confident of my statements, I say so. When I'm talking out of my ass, I'll let you know. Please return the favor. You state that violence is the only language that 'islamofascists' understand. Sadly, it appears to be the only language you understand as well. If I ascribed to your philosophy, I'd already have a bullet with your name on it. Luckily for the both of us, I believe in alternate solutions. As for your use and misuse of the term 'islamofascist,' I find it deeply insulting and so broadly applied in your posts that it's clear you wouldn't even recognize one if they were on your Christmas card mailing list. You appear to use the term to refer to the Islamic community at large, let alone anyone who simply happens to disagree with your point of view. Look: Hitler was a Christian, Stalin was an atheist, Bin Laden is a Muslim. Each of them were also exceptions and only a fool would construe the individual as somehow being indicative of the whole. The real enemies are extremism and hate and those two sad realities exist as subsets within all cultures, all religions, all philosphies, all nationalities. They exist on the homefront and they exist overseas. They hide in caves and they dress in suits. Sometimes they exist as pariahs and outcasts, sometimes we vote them into office. The darned thing is, in times like these, they also breed like bloody rabbits. Improbolus, you're a rabbit. Enjoy the view.

42 >>>"Look: Hitler was a Christian, Hitler was not a christian, you fucking moron. I'm so tired of disproving this Liberal meme over and over again. It's starting to get tiresome.

43 JC...the reaction to the Salman Rushdie thing is the sort of thing I refer to. I have never been attacked personally by a muslim nor attacked them physically, however many around where I live said 9/11 was the US getting what it deserved. They had been pretty silent until then but something like this often makes you realise whose side they are on when things turn bad. The thing is about trust and fear and I do fear what these people are capable of as it threatens all that I love about life. I love western ideals and freedom and hate the oppressiveness of islam.

44 On the "Hitler was a Christian" debate, this one's for you, Carlos. Note that I'm not making the ridiculous corresponding argument that, if Hitler was a Christian, Christianity must therefore be evil. Nor am I even claiming the Hitler actually believed in Christianity in one way or another. What I'm arguing is that he used a warped version of Christianity to frame and justify his atrocities. And for the record, I'm a practicing Christian as well. I come from a Mennonite theological background and we've got our own skeletons in the closet - run a Google search for +Anabaptist +Munster if you ever feel like poking us in a sore spot. ------------Here goes nothing... “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” ( Adolf Hitler, from John Toland [Pulitzer Prize winner], Adolf Hitler, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p. 507. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 562. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 65. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago — a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people. “Then indeed when Rome collapsed there were endless streams of new German bands flowing into the Empire from the North; but, if Germany collapses today, who is there to come after us? German blood upon this earth is on the way to gradual exhaustion unless we pull ourselves together and make ourselves free! “And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Munich, April 12, 1922; from Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler: April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1, New York: Oxford University Press, 1942, pp. 19-20. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: ‘Lord, make us free!’ is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: ‘Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!’” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, pp. 632-633. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “I may not be a light of the church, a pulpiteer, but deep down I am a pious man, and believe that whoever fights bravely in defense of the natural laws framed by God and never capitulates will never be deserted by the Lawgiver, but will, in the end, receive the blessings of Providence.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on July 5, 1944; from Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1989, p. 208. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “I say: my Christian feeling tells me that my lord and savior is a warrior. It calls my attention to the man who, lonely and surrounded by only a few supporters, recognized what they [the Jews] were, and called for a battle against them, and who, by God, was not the greatest sufferer, but the greatest warrior. . . “As a human being it is my duty to see to it that humanity will not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did that old civilization two thousand years ago, a civilization which was driven to its ruin by the Jews. . . I am convinced that I am really a devil and not a Christian if I do not feel compassion and do not wage war, as Christ did two thousand years ago, against those who are steeling and exploiting these poverty-stricken people. “Two thousand years ago a man was similarly denounced by this particular race which today denounces and blasphememes all over the place. . . That man was dragged before a court and they said: he is arousing the people! So he, too, was an agitator!” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on April 12, 1922; from Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1989, pp. 261-262. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “And now Staatspräsident Bolz says that Christianity and the Catholic faith are threatened by us. And to that charge I can answer: In the first place it is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity. If many wish today to take threatened Christianity under their protection, where, I would ask, was Christianity for them in these fourteen years when they went arm in arm with atheism? No, never and at no time was greater internal damage done to Christianity than in these fourteen years when a party, theoretically Christian, sat with those who denied God in one and the same Government.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Stuttgart, February 15, 1933. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 383. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “We have experienced a miracle, something unique, something the like of which there has hardly been in the history of the world. God first allowed our people to be victorious for four and a half years, then He abased us, laid upon us a period of shamelessness, but now after a struggle of fourteen years he has permitted us to bring that period to a close. It is a miracle which has been wrought upon the German people. […] It shows us that the Almighty has not deserted our people, that He received it into favour at the moment when it rediscovered itself. And that our people shall never again lose itself, that must be our vow so long as we shall live and so long as the Lord gives us the strength to carry on the fight.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech to the 'Old Guard' of the Party at Munich, March 19, 1934. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “The anti-Semitism of the new [Christian Social] movement was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 119. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the ‘remaking’ of the Reich as they call it.” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 375. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time. A fight for freedom had begun mightier than the earth had ever seen; for once Destiny had begun its course, the conviction dawned on even the broad masses that this time not the fate of Serbia or Austria was involved, but whether the German nation was to be or not to be.” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 161. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “As far as this variety of ‘folkish’ warriors, are concerned, I can only wish the National Socialist movement and the German people with all my heart: ‘Lord, preserve us from such friends, and then we can easily deal with our enemies.’” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 565. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 436. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe.” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 214. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “Imbued with the desire to secure for the German people the great religious, moral, and cultural values rooted in the two Christian Confessions, we have abolished the political organizations but strengthened the religious institutions.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Reichstag, Berlin, January 30, 1934. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “The advantages of a personal and political nature that might arise from compromising with atheistic organizations would not outweigh the consequences which would become apparent in the destruction of general moral basic values. The national government regards the two Christian confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality: their rights are not to be infringed.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Reichstag, Berlin, March 23, 1933; published in his My New Order ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.” ( Adolf Hitler, in 26 April 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “he world has no reason for fighting in our defense, and as a matter of principle God does not make cowardly nations free…” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 622. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief.” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 152. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “While we destroyed the Centre Party, we have not only brought thousands of priests back into the Church, but to millions of respectable people we have restored their faith in their religion and in their priests. The union of the Evangelical Church in a single Church for the whole Reich, the Concordat with the Catholic Church, these are but milestones on the road which leads to the establishment of a useful relation and a useful co operation between the Reich and the two Confessions.” ( Adolf Hitler, in his New Year Message, January 1, 1934. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “National Socialism has always affirmed that it is determined to take the Christian Churches under the protection of the State. For their part the churches cannot for a second doubt that they need the protection of the State, and that only through the State can they be enabled to fulfill their religious mission. Indeed, the churches demand this protection from the State.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a Radio Broadcast July 22, 1933; from My New Order. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “I know that here and there the objection has been raised: Yes, but you have deserted Christianity. No, it is not that we have deserted Christianity; it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity. We have only carried through a clear division between politics, which have to do with terrestrial things, and religion, which must concern itself with the celestial sphere. There has been no interference with the doctrine of the Confessions or with their religious freedom, nor will there be any such interference. On the contrary the State protects religion, though always on the one condition that religion will not be used as a cover for political ends. “There may have been a time when even parties founded on the ecclesiastical basis were a necessity. At that time Liberalism was opposed to the Church, while Marxism was anti-religious. But that time is past. National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary, it stands on the ground of a real Christianity. “The Church's interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against the Bolshevist culture, against an atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for the consciousness of a community in our national life, for the conquest of hatred and disunion between the classes, for the conquest of civil war and unrest, of strife and discord. These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Koblenz, August 26, 1934. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “It would be more in keeping with the intention of the noblest man in this world if our two Christian churches, instead of annoying Negroes with missions which they neither desire nor understand, would kindly, but in all seriousness, teach our European humanity that where parents are not healthy it is a deed pleasing to God to take pity on a poor little healthy orphan child and give him father and mother, than themselves to give birth to a sick child who will only bring unhappiness and suffering on himself and the rest of the world.” ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 403. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lords work.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Reichstag, Berlin, 1936. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “At the head of our [National Socialist] program there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will—not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Nuremberg, September 6, 1938. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “May God Almighty give our work His blessing, strengthen our purpose, and endow us with wisdom and the trust of our people, for we are fighting not for ourselves but for Germany.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Berlin, February 1, 1933. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “The judgment whether a people is virtuous or not virtuous can hardly be passed by a human being. That should be left to God.” ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Wilhelmshaven, April 1, 1939. )

45 Rob, Hitler DESPISED Christianity and Christians. He wasn't, however, above using Christian lingo to further his purposes. So, to quote Hitler means nothing. He, both publicly and privately, ridiculed Christianity as effete. When Hitler says he is a 'Christian', he does not mean, "I believe that Jesus is the Messiah", he means, "I am an Aryan."

46 Rob, Trust me, I have traded quotes back and forth in this stupid argument about Hitler for years. I'm not impressed. Furthermore, I can think of few things more repulsive on this planet than someone claiming to be a "christian", as you claim to be, trying to prove Hitler was also a christian, and going to such lengths to do so. What is it with you sick fucks on the Left??? Seriously, WTF??? Why is self-loathing and guilt so built into your sick Lefty ideology??? Regarding Hitler claiming to be a "christian", this is what he meant: "The Nazi party stands on the basis of Positive Christianity, and Positive Christianity is NationalSocial ism...NationalSocial ism is the doing of God's will...God's will reveals itself in German blood...Dr. Zoellner and Count Galen [the Catholic bishop of Muenster] have tried to make it clear to me that Christianity consists of faith in Christ as the Son of God. That makes me laugh...No, Christianity is not dependent upon the Apostle's Creed...True Christianity is represented by the party, and the German people are now called by the party and especially by the Fuehrer to a real Christianity...The Fuehrer is the herald of a new revelation." ~~Dr. Hans Kerrl, Minister of Church Affairs, February 13, 1937 I've got dozens of these dude. Hitler's words have been twisted by the Left for decades, and so has the history of the Vatican. And you stupid Libidiot christians play along like self-loathing sheep to the slaughter. Just get away from my sight, you repulse me.

47 "Our National Socialist ideology is far loftier than the concepts of Christianity, which in their essential points have been taken over from Jewry * * *. A differentiation between the various Christian confessions is not to be made here * * * the Evangelical Church is just as inimical to us as the Catholic Church. * * * All influences which might impair or damage the leadership of the people exercised by the Fuehrer with the help of the NSDAP must be eliminated. More and more the people must be separated from the churches and their organs the pastors. * * * Just as the deleterious influences of astrologers, seers and other fakers are eliminated and suppressed by the State, so must the possibility of church influence also be totally removed. * * * Not until this has happened, does the state leadership have influence on the individual citizens. Not until then are the people and Reich secure in their existence for all time." ~~Martin Bormann in a secret decree of the Party Chancellery signed by him and distributed to all Gauleiters 7 June 1941

48 "The Fuehrer considers his efforts to bring the Evangelical Church to reason, unsuccessful and the Evangelical Church with respect to its condition rightfully a useless pile of sects. As you emphasize the Party has previously carried on not only a fight against the political element of the Christianity of the Church, but also a fight against membership of Party Members in a Christian confession." ~~Hans Kerrl, Reich Minister for Church Affairs, in a letter dated 6 September 1939

49 Rob, this is all news to you obviously, but The Vatican's dissavowal of Hitler in 1937 came in the form of The encyclical Mit brennender Sorge ("With burning anxiety") which was one of the strongest condemnations of a national regime that the Holy See had ever published. In fact, the Vatican took pains to ensure that Nazi officials could not prohibit its distribution. Unlike most encyclicals, which are written in Latin, Mit brennender Sorge was written in German. It was then smuggled into Germany, secretly distributed, and read at the Masses on Palm Sunday, March 14,1937. Mit brennender Sorge condemned not only the persecution of the Church in Germany but also the neopaganism of Nazi theories, the idolizing of the state, and the use of race and bloodlines to judge human value. It declared in part: "Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds. None but superficial minds could stumble into concepts of a national God, of a national religion; or attempt to lock within the frontiers of a single people, within the narrow limits of a single race, God, the Creator of the universe, King and Legislator of all nations before whose immensity they are "as a drop of a bucket" (Isaiah 11:15). The encyclical concluded that "enemies of the Church who think that their time has come will see that their joy was premature." The Nazis confiscated all available copies of the encyclical, arrested printers who made copies, and seized -their presses. Those distributing the encyclical were arrested, payments due to the, Church from Germany under the concordat were reduced, and several priests were subjected to trials on trumped-up currency or momfity charges. Shortly thereafter, Hitler was quoted in a Swiss newspaper as saying, "The Third Reich does not desire a modus vivendi with the Catholic Church, but rather its destruction with lies and dishonor, in order to make room for a German Church in which the German race will be glorified.' Pope Pius M was henceforth considered an enemy by the Nazis.

50 and finally, Rob, if you are trying to prove Hitler was a christian, then you're no more christian than he was you Leftwing fraud. You're an effing communist. Fuck off.

51 Meh, I knew I shouldn't have stirred up that hornet's nest. Please read my preface where I clearly state my argument which is simply as follows: Hitler used Christianity to justify his atrocities just like Stalin used atheism to justify his and Bin Laden uses Islam to justify his. Is Hitler representative of Christianity? Absolutely not! Is Stalin representative of atheism? Absolutely not! Is Bin Laden representative of Islam? Absolutely not! I raise the issue only because there are posters within this thread, one little white rabbit in particular, who are throwing around blanket terms like 'islamofascist' and arguing that Islamism is somehow directly equivalent to terrorism and to anti-Americanism and to hate. This is patently and dangerously untrue. Like Christianity, atheism, and countless other faiths and philosophies, Islam is a stump with many branches. Some of those branches lean to the left and others to the right. Some are moderate and some are extremist. Some believe in violence and some believe in pacifism. If the branch offends you, cut it off (as the Pope thankfully did to Hitler and the leaders of Jordan and Saudi Arabia are now working towards with Bin Laden). But don't be a fool and burn the tree because the tree is still worth keeping. For myself, I may work to sever the branch that is President Bush but I refuse to give up on America as an ideal and I refuse to give up on the individual citizens and soldiers who call it home. Hell, I haven't even given up on the GOP for crying out loud. Rusty, I apologize for dragging this thread woefully off-topic. Broaching the topic of Hitler is always inflammatory (as it should be) and I should have known better than to even go down that garden path. Suffice to say that we can all agree with the following statement: "Hitler was a horror of wretched proportions and Christianity and Nazism are in no way equivalent." Fair's fair?

52 Rob, if muslims denounced Osama Bin Laden as vociferously as christians denounce Hitler, then we wouldn't even be having this conversation, now would we. But they don't. So your Hitler analogy fails.

53 Rob, you don't seem malicious, so sorry for blasting you. But your argumentation is misguided.

54 Bullshit, bullshit and more bullshit. When it comes down to it they made their own bed. I feel for them but it is sucide to go there and think you will be treated civil by uncivil people. Pie-in-the-shy liberals who mean well but don't know how to do well. They should not be there. They should not be using resources that could be used in other needed areas. Everyone gets their 15 minutes. Shame theirs will be you know what.

55 All right, congratulations Improbulus. You touched a nerve and I gave you what you wanted. You win this round. Here's my list of mistakes: - You hurt my pride and I got angry. - In my anger, I attacked you rather than your hate. - In attacking you, I abandoned my original mandate of toning down the vitriol being leveled against these four hostages in Iraq and bringing a level of understanding and information regarding the work of CPT. - In abandoning my original mandate, I allowed you to redefine the parameters of this debate according to your own agenda (despite my past successes in redefining the debate according to my own). - When the debate shifted, my posts grew longer and more rambling, allowing you to pick at a single weakness to undermine the whole (I was done in by a single passing reference to Hitler buried within a 750 word post). - When you picked at my weakness, I resorted to shock tactics (for the record, I couldn't care less what Hitler believed or didn't believe. I did a quick Google search for +Hitler +Christian and copy and pasted a convenient list of quotes without even reading them. Half of those quotes could be about Papa Smurf and Gargamel and I'd be none the wiser). - In the end, I called you names and resorted to demeaning you as a rabbit. I caused you to lose face. I spoke up in violence and look at all the good it did me. If you had been the kidnapper and I had been the mediator, I would have just condemned these four men to a grisly fate they don't deserve. Hopefully, cooler heads than mine prevail. Confession time: I'm not a regular on the Jawa Report and when these four men are either released or executed, I won't be back. I first came here looking for video footage to confirm that one of those four men was who I feared he was - an old friend of mine with whom I've shared many meals. He taught me a variant he invented to the board game RISK where you played with a deck of cards that represented weapons of mass destruction, acts of propaganda and unconventional warfare. We had great fun and I still play it to this day. Five points to those of you who can see the irony in two committed pacifists nuking the bejeebers out of each other in a game of global domination. I believe I may actually have been the one to introduce him to CPT so I feel partially responsible for the predicament he's in today. There's very little that I can do right now to win my friend's freedom. But what I can do, and what I've tried very hard to do, is to bring some small measure of calm and mutual respect to an otherwise hostile corner of the blogosphere. For better or for worse, the Jawa Report has become a destination for those of us seeking breaking news and footage of our loved ones. All I want to do is ratchet down the hate until this situation has passed. I suspect there are readers here who know these men even better than I and who will suffer even more from any hate-filled words than I. So if you won't do it for me, at least do it for them. Forgive my outbursts yesterday. What can I say - it was a rough day. =o(

56 I've gotta say it. Reading these posts has amazed me. There are soooo many really ignoraNt people in the USA. Is your news media *really* that bad? Because you all seem to know shit about a country that your President lied to you about plans for his oil-war in, you re-elected him...........and he's still lying to you! How anyone could be so moronic to think that Norman Kember and the other hostages "staged their own kidnapping". They are Christian pacifists. They don't have time for *anyone* with guns, whether they are from an army, terrorists or whatever. They go to Iraq and other war-zones to help the *civilian* population. As for the kidnapping of Guiliana Segrena, I guess your media forgot to tell you something else, [along with forgetting to tell you about the thousands of US soldiers who maybe haven't *died* in Iraq, but have been seriously wounded, with limb loss, paralysis or serious psychological trauma].........that she had obtained proof positive of the US use of chemical weapons, white phospourous and newer versions of napalm-type incendiaries on *civilian* areas in Falluja. I am proud of Norman Kember, because he believes in trying to help those whose lives, families and homes are destroyed by war enough to go to Iraq, even though he *knew* he was risking his own life. He is also, unlike your President, telling the truth about the Iraq situation, and as we all know, truth hurts.

57 I'm with wintermute. I have met CPT members who are currently working in Hebron (bethlehem) / Palestine and their actions have directly benefitted the lives of numerous Palestinians (also some Israeli soldiers in mandatory service ). Please realize that these people have put their lives on the line with little more that their faith and a bright red hat to set them apart from the violent factions that abound in the region. They unapologetically move into harm's way because they know their presence can mean safe passage for others (really, what kind of momentum can a terrorist group gain by executing people bringing food and education). This principle has workedin the past and I submit it is still working; even in the kidnapping, the terrorist group was chastised by major Muslim leaders. Please note that you will never be able to kill enough people to prevent violent retribution. However, great leaders (most notably Ghandi and MLK Jr.) who recognize this were willing to sacrifice their comfort and their lives in order snap people out of their apathy/ lethargy into noticing that something was seriously wrong. I applaud CPT.

1 It's hard to pour out your emotions when you're trying to stay on script. I wonder how many millions this scam will net the terrorists and their liberal/socialist/fascist/communist allies?

2 See. It's true. The terrorists aren't evil and wicked and deserving of death. They just share a "different perspective".

3 Just more jihadist propaganda for the Western media to lap up.

4 I'm witholding judgement on this incident until the first deadline passes.

5 Anyone else think this whole thing is staged to get the kidnappers some publicity? "We are being treated well... yes... very well! Thanks to our kidnappers! Totally, man!" I bet they just want to show the world how "nice and innocent" the terrorists are... and how eeeeeeeevil Bush and Blair are for attacking them.

6 From Jihad Watch: CAIR protests kidnapping of collaborators Has CAIR ever protested against the kidnapping of anyone else in Iraq? If so, please send me the links here and I will post them as updates. But this protest of the kidnapping of the collaborators is the first one I personally can recall ever seeing from them. From "Frenchman target of latest Iraq kidnapping," from AFP, with thanks to Jeffrey Imm: Just a day earlier, one of the most prominent US Muslim organizations, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, became the latest group to demand the release of the four Western Christian peace activists kidnapped last week. The two Canadians, one Briton and an American, are linked to the US and Canada-based Christian Peacemaker Teams opposed to the continued presence of US-led foreign troops in Iraq. "Those who left the comfort of their homes to advocate for the rights of others that do not share their faith, ethnicity or language should be celebrated and honored by Muslims, not humiliated by being made captives or, God forbid, killed," said Parvez Ahmed, the organization's chairman. "This is a universal human ideal and a cherished principle of Islam." In other words, "They're on your side, you idiots. Let them go." So, I'm not just a voice crying in the wilderness.

7 "Those who left the comfort of their homes to advocate for the rights of others that do not share their faith, ethnicity or language should be celebrated and honored by Muslims, not humiliated by being made captives or, God forbid, killed," Who wants to ask CAIR, seeing as that profile matches the U.S armed forces, if they want to condemn terrorism in Iraq now?

8 They're only trying to condemn the kidnapping of their dhimmi allies. Duh.

9 I was trying for 'irony'

10 Treated well except for that held captive and threatened with death part.

11 They are not hostages - they are simply guests under alternative circumstances.

12 Ah hell they're probably having tea parties every evening.

13 Tea parties, clean clothes and looks like they are having showers too. Dont seem too bad

14 Lets do something about the video. I mean we cant get a better FTP site than that? Standard Windows Media Players cant access the video, even if you save target as. We are only allowed to update the Player so much. And btw, you get plenty military who access your site. Nice job GW!!!!!

15 Greg the child molesting traitor will believe everything in the captives speech. Prood to him that America is bad.

16 Scarry...The Canadians are eating and well dressed. The Brit and American are dressed up like prisoners...Hand-cuffs etc...I wonder what message they are sending....

17 Mr. Anderson, you disappoint me.

18 Has there been anymore information about the CPT workers?

1 The only real comfort in that video, is the fact it gives the armed forces six days to locate them, and rescue. That along with the fact they did not execute them in the time they held them. I'm not sure if it's my mind playing tricks but the execution of Eugene Armstrong and Jack Hensley wasn't very long after their capture.

2 this is terrible.

3 Hmmm....I have speculated over the past few days about what motive any particular terrorist group would have to murder the CPT team. But this group is bad, and perhaps I was wrong. It wouldn't be the first or last time. Because certain groups such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine has called for their release, I am still hopeful that it will happen. We shall see.

4 I've said it before - The insurgents and jihadists are not playing to the western media or audience. They a playing to a middle-eastern islamic audience. Difference rules and values apply! The CPT and others better realize that - in Iraq they ARE NOT SEEN as anti-american pacifists and allies - they are seen as WESTERN INFIDELS AND INVADERS! AND FEAR AND TERROR DOES WORK WITH SOME! Fortunately (odd thing for me to say), very few of the left and groups similar to CPT are in Iraq. (they apparently got the memo). They are here doing their thing from the comfort and safety of Western democracies. Oddly too - hondo is on duty with many to provide for their (and everyone's) safety. Think they will sent me a Christmas card and say thank you? Not likely - but I'm cool with that.

5 Hey, hondo, I sure do wish you a Merry Christmas, and thanks for all you do to keep us free and safe!

6 The release of all Iraqi detainees is an impossible demand and the terrorists know that. So perhaps the intention was to kill the hostages all along and then blame the US and Iraqi governments for not doing enough to save them even though they were being treated so nicely (Arabic sweets?). Alternatively, by asking for something that cannot be granted, perhaps the plan is to force the authorities to offer a hefty ransom instead - the main objective. I'm just speculating. Whatever it may be, I hope the guys on the ground get to them before the deadline.

7 JJ Send money!

8 hondo, That request sounds familiar. Oh yeah, I have a kid in college.

9 Hey all, I have plans tonight and so won't be around much. If you find any interesting links regarding this case, please feel free to drop them in the comments section.

10 Trinity Broadcast network took Hal Lindsey,author of the late great planet earth,off tv because they said his show might be offending Muslims and arabs.Well,how about these damn hostage videos offending us.I am sick and damn tired of these damn ragheads and their tactics. p.s.tbn was forced to rehire him after e-mails etread tony blankleys book!!

11 Agent Brown searched and located the first threat to their lives on 11/29/05 at exactly 23:27.

12 Ouch. No matter how you interpret it, this is a very bad sign for the four CPT members and my heart goes out to them and their families. There have been a number of prominent calls for their release from within the Muslim community but they appear to have fallen on deaf ears. Given the 1-week deadline, not all hope is lost for a peaceful resolution but it never helps to have a ticking clock.

13 The only "peaceful" resolution will be paying a ransom.

14 What did you expect? When will people learn not to go there without a weapon in their hands. Muslim fanatics kill people. That's what they do. There is no other purpose for these animals. What else can they do. They contribute nothing but death and suffering to modern society. Why give the dogs the opportunity to do what they do. Do people in America need help of Christian organizations? You bet. So why go to a backward shit eating country?

15 I'll bet a dollar they walk free after ransom.

16 well according to Rob, the group won't pay a ransom because the ransom would be used to commit violence?

17 You disappoint me, Mr. Anderson.

18 Those CPTers are the stupidest people on the planet, but they don't deserve to die that way. They're probably very good people at heart. I hope they're lives are spared.

19 Agent Smith says that their barbaric behaviour is a prime example of the rampaging lawlessness permitted by the lack of a real government there.

20 Smith, "lawlessness"? It's called a war, an insurgency, terrorism, guerrilla war, etc. These aren't common criminals stealing purses in case you haven't notice.

21 Agent Smith says that whatever the situation on the ground in Iraq is, the locals are not under central government control. Sadr City, for example is under the control of the Mehdi army and Moqtadr al-Sadr. Sadr City's Iraqi Police and Iraqi Army units answer to him. The only people under U.S. control are the Iraqi Army, who were led by Special Forces in recent Anbar battles.

22 Does Agent Smith believe that what goes for the Sunni triangle goes for the rest of Iraq too? Is so, Agent Smith should guess again. Most of Iraq is directly under the control of the Iraqi government, even if the Sunni triangle is still a hotbed of terrorism.

23 Agent Smith's deep sources in Iraq have revealed that Iranian power dominates in all southern provinces, the proxy leader being the Ayatollah Ali Sistani. The Sunni Triangle is an American overlay of a Sunni light industrial and agricultural region, teeming with insurgents and "goatboys". Agent Brown says that historically, America has defined troublesome places in terms of "triangles". Hence, the historic triangles in Korea and Vietnam. Two points would just be a line and four points gets too complicated because the shape is inherently unstable. It could shift and become a parallellogram to feared by all square bashers. Agent Jones says that if three troublesome points cannot be found by America, America will create them, as trouble always comes in threes, like Airline crashes. Hence, the Axis of Evil lumped two arch-enemies, Iran and Iraq plus lunatic Kim Jong Il. By creating the bonds between the enemies, America gets to fight them all as if they were one big enemy.

24 "Peace" activists taken hostage. Kind of like "human shields" blown up. Do I care? On one level, yes. But on another -- not at all. Serves these folks right. What the hell did these brainless idiots expect? They walk into a warzone of a battle between Christian and Muslim forces -- they are Christian. Gee - do ya think the muzzies are going to let em off with a slap on the wrist? Nahh. Your head is on the block in this war if you aint fighting for Allah.

25 But allah sucks.

1 Perhaps Guiliana will get a message to them to stay off Route Irish.

2 I do believe I smell a big fat rat!

3 The plot sickens.

4 Carlos, you'll be hearing from my copyright attorney. ;-)

5 Wow. My surprise meter didn't even twitch.

6 Vinnie, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery ;-)

7 You said it Robert; I think this is just a scam to raise money for the terrorists. I'd like to meet one of the "peacemaker" assholes and introduce him to eternal peace personally.

8 I can assure you that this organization would never knowingly fund violent acts of any sort. CPT has two policies regarding kidnapped members - please do not secure a rescue by means of force and please do not pay a ransom where the moneys will be used to fund further acts of violence. As for the hostage-takers, perhaps this is the same group and, as Rusty suggests, perhaps this is an attempt on their part to claim deja vu all over again. That said, there's barely a street or square of Baghdad that hasn't seen a kidnapping at some point over the past three years. Most of the hostages are innocent Iraqi civilians who go unreported in the press, despite CPT's best efforts to the contrary. See a list of past CPT press releases below. http://www.google.com/u/ChristianPeacemakerTeams?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&domains=cpt.org&q=%2Bkidnapping+%2BIraqi&btnG=Search&sitesearch=cpt.org

9 Rob: What a stupid organization! do you have to have a below normal IQ to be accepted? So they would prefer have their head sawed off with a Bowie knife until losing consciousness from blood loss, than have a SF team execute those that not only want to kill them, but also attack civilians with car bombs? they do what for civilians again? oh, yes catalog "american atrocities" btw. can you show me documentation referring to the "innocence" of the Iraqi citizens you refer to: Most of the hostages are innocent Iraqi civilians who go unreported in the press perhaps just "iraqi civilians" would suffice.

10 Agent Jones has discovered that Iraq has a lot of sand.

11 Agent Brown, after consultation with the Architect and the NYT has found that "Iraqi and American officials in Iraq say the single most important fact about the insurgency is that it consists not of a few groups but of dozens, possibly as many as 100...Attack any single part of it, and the rest carries on largely untouched...the insurgency, for the most part, has no head." Agent Jones calculates that it is hard to target the rebellion's 50-100 leaders because no one is leading it. Agent Smith has no comment.

12 Re "innocent" civilians: This summer, the Iraq Body Count project published an analysis of casualties in the Iraq War that must be admired for its meticulous documentation. This study reports 24,865 civilian deaths in the first two years of the Iraq War, an apparent ringing endorsement of the "Iraq in chaos" position. But a curious statistical anomaly jumps right off page one: over 81% of the civilian casualties are men. Even stranger, over 90% of civilian casualties are adults in a country with a disproportionate percentage of the population under 18 (44.5%). This contradicts a basic tenet of the civilian casualty argument, namely that we are describing collateral damage during a time of war. Collateral damage does not differentiate between male and female, between child and adult. A defective smart bomb falling in a marketplace, stray bullets ripping through bedroom walls, city warfare in Fallujah – all these activities should produce casualties that reflect the ratio of men to women or adults to children that prevail in Iraq as a whole. If the death of innocent civilians is at issue, then the gender/age data can be used to estimate the percentage of actual civilians killed. Below, the data for female and underage casualties provides the basis for determining a true, pure civilian "body count" figure of 7,976. More: http://www.logictimes.com/civilian.htm

13 You're being misled, that is not a "single important fact" that is the characteristic of just about every insurgency including Burma, Palastine, Malay, Algeria and Vietnam. Counter-insurgency normally takes place by segregation of population, cutting supply lines, paid informants, sabotage, propaganda and bringing parties into the political arena. The classic parts of counter-insurgency can be seen in Vietnam with the sabotaging of enemy ammunition in ammo dumps, and rice burns (cutting off the food supply) and ariel bombardments of the supply lines throughout Vietnam.

14 Carlos, your link to LogicTimes was fascinating. I have only one question though. Should those numbers (while perhaps not making a huge difference) be adjusted for a culture which keeps its women and children indoors moreso than a culture such as ours? Just a thought.

15 Good link Carlos. I'm glad someone is actually going to the trouble to compile real numbers which show without a doubt that most of the "civilian" casualties, were really terrorists who bought the farm. Of course, the libtards will reject this out of hand, even when every single image on TV and the internet shows "insurgents" wearing civilian clothes. With the numbers given, that's 20,141 adult males, and 4,724 women and children killed in the first two years. I'm just guessing that the ratio of actual civilian adults-to-children killed is probably about 1:3, with men and women making up equal portions of the actual civilian adult death toll, and if that's close to accurate, that means that the adult male actual civilian casualty count would be one-sixth of the children, which comes to about 3,149, which is 524. Subtract that number from the total of adult males killed, and you get 19,167, which, when considering all the battles fought, seems like a reasonable number of casualties, especially when compared to similar engagements wherein irregular forces facing US forces suffered losses of anywhere from 10:1 to 20:1. In summary, given the numbers, they've killed over 2000 of ours, and we've probably by now killed approximately 30,000 of theirs, a ratio of 15:1, which means we're winning, and will continue to do so, unless the traitorcrats and leftards are allowed to subvert this war like they did in Vietnam. PS. At this ratio, given that there are one billion muslims in the world, and that about half are male, with a 15:1 loss ratio, if they were to launch a global jihad, we (the Western world) would only lose 33 million males by the time they had no more males left. In short, jihad is statistically guaranteed to destroy islam, as long as we have the will to fight.

16 Carlos: Nevermind. He answered the question in the comments. The "reported" 18.3% of women and the statistically assumed number of 49.5% are too far apart and even major adjustments would not account for such a discrepency. The guy is very smart. And handles hate mail adeptly. Thanks for the link.

17 IM: Can you calculate the time frame for that as well? I mean, just so we can give the Dems a pullout date, you know.

18 Dave, please clarify. Are you suggesting that there are no innocent civilians to be found in a country with a population of approx. 25 million people? Statistically speaking, that seems like a bit of a stretch, don't you think? According to recent reports (http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20051202-093915-3471r), Donald Rumsfeld estimates that there are as many as 20,000 armed insurgents operating in Iraq with the support of perhaps another 200,000 non-combatant loyalists. By that estimate, over 99% of the Iraqi population would consist of innocent civilians. Carlos, thanks for backing up your argument with some solid stats. Some of the gender discrepancy you describe could theoretically be the result of a "shoot first, ask questions later" policy (i.e. they're not the result of stray bullets but bullets targeted very deliberately at adult males, many of whom end up being innocent victims). Also, given the firmly entrenched gender mores within Muslim society, I suspect Iraqi insurgents would be more likely to bully the male heads of houshold, business owners, etc. That said, I agree that the discrepancy could also stem from a potential bias on the part of the reporting organization as well as some successful localized propaganda efforts on the part of the insurgents. My guess is that it's some combination of the above factors.

19 "Some of the gender discrepancy you describe could theoretically be the result of a "shoot first, ask questions later" policy (i.e. they're not the result of stray bullets but bullets targeted very deliberately at adult males, many of whom end up being innocent victims)." This is exactly the sort of thing that people seize upon as a basis for argument without any supporting data or empirical evidence and slip in generalities like "some" and the word "theory" so they can wiggle out when called on it. It's irresponsible.

20 No I am objecting to your label of "innocent" in combination with "civilians", when it is obvious that some of the dead were indeed Insurgents, or nationalists that were involved in either logistical or fiancial support for the insurgency, or were insurgents themselves. As a large portion of Iraq's male population were involved in the military, police or intelligence agencies and a large portion of these were displaced with the idiotic dismissal of Iraq's regular armed forces it is with great probability that these were involved in the insurgency. Those people whom provided "safehouses" for terrorists / insurgents and were killed in strategical strikes of those locations for example, are counted as civilian deaths but are not "innocent" the large amounts of insurgents and terrorists involved in this war that are using civilian "cover" is providing a very skeewed civilian bodycount due to the inability to distinguish them from civilians unless they are indeed masked, or armed when the body is examined.

21 Oh hell, more math. Let's see, 10K dead a year out of an adult male population of about 6.25 million, (figuring males over the age of 15), comes to an annual casualty rate of 16%, which extrapolated annually for a global population of one billion, means that if every adult male muslim engaged in jihad, it would only take about 68 years to kill them all at the current rate, all other things, such as population growth, being equal. Of course, not all muslims engage in jihad, and their population is actually growing fairly steadily, which means that although many of them will die annually, the overall population will not really be effected, especially considering that polygamy is widely practiced among muslims, and even if half of all muslim men were killed on an annual basis, it would probably not effect the birth rate until the percentage of the male population above 15 years old fell so low that there were not enough men making to to reproductive age before they died, which is not likely to happen. What will most likely be the case is that enough muslims will stop listening to the fanatics that are getting them killed, and embrace civilized ways. Jihad will destroy itself eventually. In any event, I believe the best hope for stopping islamofascism is not to kill its men, but to liberate its women and educate its children along Western lines from an early age, so as to avoid the culture shock that causes so many young men to take up jihad because of their inability to comprehend the modern world. Women are much easier to civilize than men, because they're naturally more civil in the first place, and tend to take to the trappings of civlization quicker than men do. This is why the most important war materiels being sent to Iraq and Afghanistan are not bombs and bullets, but books and school supplies, because the schoolchildren of today can be either jihadis or productive citizens tomorrow, and it's up to us to make them the latter, and not the former.

22 JC, Interesting info.. Another point to consider is that I believe they are also counting revenge and other crime related killings, under the theory that the US is responsible for the breakdown in order. Men are probably more likely to be involved in crime or even inter tribal disputes.

23 Wow, Improb. I was about to pass you off as a troll. Thanks for proving me wrong. While I don't agree with your rather paternalistic notion that Iraqis are savages in need of civilization and Western-style enlightenment, I do agree with your assessment that bombs, bullets, and systemic injustice are precisely what creates a breeding ground for extremism. Books and school supplies, coupled with an environment of toleration and the underlying support for a productive and culturally rich society, really does sound like a more viable recipe for a stable, democratic, and peaceful Iraq. It's precisely that kind of tolerant environment that CPT and its workers are seeking to foster, one person and one family at a time. Given the space and opportunity, free from all of the 'us vs. them' and 'good vs. evil' rhetoric being spewed by the current administration, I believe the US military could play a similarly positive role. They did an excellent job in Bosnia, for instance, and the forces in Afghanistan have also managed to be fairly constructive overall (Despite being a pacifist, I've generally been supportive of the war in Afghanistan - it's been well-handled and I feel that it's had a positive net effect, both for global security and the civilian population). The war in Iraq, on the other hand, got off to a bad start with the whole 'Axis of Evil' discussion and the rather silly attempts to blame Saddam Hussein for the horrible but entirely unrelated tragedy of 9/11. Where the war in Afghanistan has weakened Al Qaeda and the threat of terrorism, the war in Iraq has managed to strengthen both. Where the war in Afghanistan has led to a functioning though fragile democracy that has improved women's rights and the situation of the average Afghani, the ill-conceived war in Iraq has led to nothing but chaos, quagmire, and disfunction. And Oyster - I was agreeing with you that there may be some bias and propaganda in the stats you reported. You'd better take it where you can get it. ;o)

24 Sorry Rob, I still don't buy the CPT line. They seem to me nothing but a bunch of "liberation theologists" who blame the evils of capitalism, and who see Communism as the ultimate expression of Christianity, and whose efforts will mean exactly nothing without someone to pave the way for a transition to a peaceful, and yes, Western style enlightenment. It really bothers me that you phrased it as if there is something wrong with the Greek foundation of civilization, because there isn't, and you know it. Besides, it's hard to enlighten kids when there are death squads roaming the countryside; we have to kill everyone who rejects civilization and would destroy it. It's just that simple.

25 Crap, got the numbers wrong. It's not 16%, but 1.6%. I seem to suck at math, but oh well, I'm still a genius, according to MENSA. Anyway, this corrected figure shows something entirely different, but even more substantial, and that's that if we're only killing 1.6% of the adult male population, that means that there's probably considerably less than 5% actively fighting. I say 5% because given their poor tactical ability, and penchant to stand and fight to the death, they are probably suffering pretty high casualties, and if there were more than 5%, their casualties would be much higher. In this conflict, their casualty numbers are not determined by our ability to kill them, but by how many they send to fight, because they get slaughtered every time they stand and fight, which is why they resort to IED's. my conclusion from the previous post still stands though; the jihad will destroy itself because we are winning the hearts and minds of the people by building schools and hospitals, and they're losing them by blowing up their kids with car bombs. Pretty soon, the Iraqi Army will be able to take over its own operations, US forces can withdraw, and the last pretend motivation for anyone to fight will be taken away, and those who remain will be shown for exactly what they are; thugs and murderers who only want to take over the country.

26 Leave Guiliana Segrena alone. I seriously doubt she faked her kidnapping. That's just ridiculous. Just because the woman is far left doesn't mean she would fake her kidnapping. I'm a Republican and I support the war in Iraq. I'm just saying you should lay off her. She saw a man die in her arms and was nearly killed herself. She has the right to believe in what she wants.

27 Agent Brown's calculations reveal a disturbing trend similar to that of Improbulus Maximus. Once America departs Iraq, the "insurgents" (Baathists, nationalists, SCIRIists, Badrists) are going to find and kill the "terrorists" (Zarqa, "goatboys", knifeboys and other trash). American forces are merely a distraction that is preventing the nationalist "insurgents" from impaling Zarqawi's head on a stake for Al Jazeera's cameras. American forces are now slowly aligning with Baathists and Badrists in Metro Baghdad to wipe out the "terrorists".

1 Respectfully, I take issue with this statement: "There is much to be admired in a man willing to die for his beliefs." (curse the quirk of this website that forces me to retype this passage, instead of merely copying and pasting!) I think that the quality of the beliefs must come into consideration. I find nothing admirable in Mohammed Atta or his accomplices. I find nothing admirable in the suicide bomber who attacks a group of children getting candy from American soldiers. In fact, I revile the memory of these murderous creatures. Granted, Fox is not on a par with these troglodytes, but his beliefs are so naive and ill-founded that I can find nothing to admire there, either. And I revile him for putting more people at risk for indulging his juvenile fantasies.

2 Of course, Atta was willing to KILL for his beliefs as well as die. A bit less admirable, don't you think?

3 No, because many people are willing to kill, and die themselves, for a belief. The difference is that Atta was willing to give up his life to kill innocent civilians who had done him no real harm. And he was willing to do it based on his beliefs. This guy is, as far as we know, an innocent civilian who walked (yes, willingly) into the lion's den. Misguided? Yes. Naive? Yes. Stupid? Yes. Possibly metally ill? Possibly. But none of those criteria add up to committing an act of evil for which one would deserve to be beheaded. And brother, the U.S. military has been putting it's ass on the line for over 200 years in support of someone's juvenile fantasies. That's what they do, that's their charter, that's the risk they themselves acknowledge they are willing to take. And that is why we honor them so completely.

4 I didn't say I wanted him beheaded, Vinnie. I just said I don't admire him.

5 And I don't really admire him THAT MUCH. I also admire Gandhi, a little, but mostly no. There is something immoral about pacifism. This is why South Park gets it right placing Gandhi in hell.

6 No you didn't. My bad. I'm a little more specific. I don't admire his beliefs, his ideology, his mindset. But I do have admiration for the courage it takes to walk into the snakepit unarmed for your cause. Look at it this way. The Germans in WWI gave the Marines the nickname "Devil Dogs." They did that, despite polar opposite views, out of respect and admiration for the Corps' fighting ability. That's the point of view I'm looking at Rusty's statement from. Of course, unlike the hard Left, I am truly open-minded. If evidence comes to light that my point of view is unfounded, or misquided itself, my opinion will certainly change.

7 And one little off-topic aside to the lefty-socialist set that may be reading this exchange. This is how we debate. You notice no name calling, no vitriol, no hate, no calls for "shut him up!" Compare this to what ya'll have done to Zell Miller and Joe Liebermann. thatisall.

8 Good point Vinnie. There's another thread further down that could use this advice.

9 And a callout of thanks from the lefty-socialist set, Vinnie. Your integrity and maturity in this debate is appreciated.

10 Good point Rusty. Pacifism is morally indefensible in the face of evil.

11 Agent Smith says that Jesus Christ never carried an AK-47.

12 Hi Im new to this blog so ummm ill refrain from shouting and hurling abuse to the sheer naivate of your arguments. Im assuming you guys are from the US considering the earlier comment of upholding and respecting your marines completely....woohooo- there is a naive assertion. Someone who willingly goes into battle against another country and upholdes its own nations regime at the expense of people who have a raw material - in this case OIL which you dont have anymore- HAHAHAHA! ooops and your in three times more debt compared with the whole of Africa, i guess desperation calls and its time to go in and screw over a very 'wrong' dictatorship which the US and Britain promoted. I believe its wrong terrorists do what they do and im afraid thats why I uphold Bush and Blair responsible for the slaying of thousands of Iraqs through bombing cluster bombing and the deadly sanctions imposed in the country since the earlier 1990s by Daddy Bush. Your man Tom is a good guy and prayers indeed him and the other 3 hostages do not die tomorrow. Naive - yes i agree howevere inherently good absolutely. Marines- naive- yes. They believe they are in there to do a good job and 'help' the Iraq people. They do not belong in the country and are there to do no good except rob the Iraq people of the rescource they own- we dont. So Puppet people back to your idiot boxes and American gladiators- oh and have Macdonals and Coke with that too will y'all????! For you have bought into whats the biggest lie of the 21st century- who indeed would wanna be an 'american idiot'. Respect to Tom and more like Him- walking into the lions den indeed not the best move but sort OUR foreign policy out and you wont have as many dens. Ps aint ya prould of Guantanamo???

1 I really don't have the words to describe the irony of this situation; an enemy propagandist under the knife of those he supports against his countrymen. It really is hard to have sympathy for such a traitor, "pacifist" or not, because all he was doing was helping the enemy. Also, the fact that he is another of these wide-eyed zealots strengthens my argument that religion is often a form of mental disorder.

2 I would be very surprised if anything happens to the hostages who 'work' for CPT. Known terrorist groups in "Palestine" such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine have called for the CPT team to be released. I believe that the terrorists will keep the hostages for a few days, and then in a so-called gesture of good will release them. The terrorists will probably release the hostages to someone who can gain political capital. I am not sure what will happen to the German woman who was taken hostage, but I fear for her life moreso than for the CPT team. I hope they all come home safe, but with a better understanding of what we are dealing with.

3 I find it hard to feel sympathy for "pacifists" who not only will not defend their own civilization, but who will work actively to thwart it. If it were not for "warmongers" like Charles Martel, these twits wouldn't even be Christians, as Islam would have overrun the West centuries ago.

4 Whatever happens happens - it was his (their) choice. Actually there have been relatively few cases like this - though a rash at present. There is a reason for this. Normally under ideal conditions the libs/left, similar groups and the media would be all over Iraq looking to meet insurgents/jihadists to embrace, glorify and get their "point of view" (to mix with their own anti-American baggage). They haven't done that here (few cases including recent not withstanding) for a simple reason. The insurgents/jihadists scare the living shit out of them. Even the "media" stays in their secure location behind private guards and uses panoramic background shots to give the illusion they are "outside". The current hostages probably didn't get the memo. The hostages are in serious trouble. The insurgents/jihadists are not (repeat NOT) playing to the media or the lib/left West - to them they are all Western and they don't give a damn. They are playing to the Arab and Muslim street which lives by a whole different set of rules and cultural values. Note - you will not see wanabe Jane Fonda types hangin' out with jidhadists smiling and swapping revolutionary ideas - because they are smart enough to realise they would be deadmeat to these sick bastards. Maybe we should open up a discussion on another side motivation of the lib/left anti-war groupings - fear. yes - fear! (Nobody's talking about it). I firmly believe that segments of the opposition are afraid of these people, want to run away and hope that they would then leave them alone. I see this fear throughout the WEST and I believe OBL, the jihadists and all the others can see and smell it too. The jihadists aren't interested in PR - they're interested in fear and terror and see it working.

5 I say Fuck 'em.

6 Yeah i also think they have a better chance of survival if they have been known to be anti american and anti occupation in the past. I'm with rusty on this, don't support the actions of these pacificst, but hope and pray that they make it out alive and hopefully leave the country asap a lot wiser and stop creating work for the soldiers.

7 Again, it's important to clarify that CPT is by no means supportive of the Iraqi insurgency. As a Google search of their archives will make clear, they have been openly critical of the violence perpetrated on both sides of this conflict. Admittedly, both the press and the blogosphere have been more eager to report their criticisms of the US - conservatives find it convenient to pigeonhole CPT as Anti-American 'leftards' and 'moonbats' while the liberal press has, well, often gone down the route of being 'leftards' and 'moonbats' themselves. But CPT has been very clear about opposing violence of all sorts and has taken the 'side' of the innocent Iraqi civilians who find themselves targeted on all sides and generally caught in the middle of this whole mess. While Rusty points out CPT's trust in a particular Muslim cleric in Fallujah, all accusations he makes against that cleric are entirely conjecture. Are there radical clerics in Fallujah and the West Bank who espouse violence and vitriol as a means to their ends? Absolutely. Are there moderate clerics in Fallujah and the West Bank who favor peace, compromise, and thriving democracies? Absolutely. I find it highly unlikely that a group like CPT would have aligned themselves with one of the former. As long as you choose to tar and feather all Muslims, pacifists, and those on the left with the same brush, your only available solution is to kill them all. Amusingly enough, CPT is founded and supported primarily by the historic peace churches: Mennonites, Quakers, Amish, and the like. On the whole, these are pretty conservative groups whose voting patterns generally trend toward the right. On many issues, they probably hold very similar opinions to your own. The one place where they veer off the predictable path is the issue of violence and the use of force. In other words, these aren't your normal leftists. In fact, they may not even be leftists at all. Put that in your pipe and smoke it for a while...

8 Respectfully, I take issue with this statement: "There is much to be admired in a man willing to die for his beliefs." (curse the quirk of this website that forces me to retype this passage, instead of merely copying and pasting!) I think that the quality of the beliefs must come into consideration. I find nothing admirable in Mohammed Atta or his accomplices. I find nothing admirable in the suicide bomber who attacks a group of children getting candy from American soldiers. In fact, I revile the memory of these murderous creatures. Granted, Fox is not on a par with these troglodytes, but his beliefs are so naive and ill-founded that I can find nothing to admire there, either. And I revile him for putting more people at risk for indulging his juvenile fantasies.

9 Imagine the uproar if he had been detained or kept out of Fallujah by the US for his safety. Surely the Army will be blamed for not providing enough security.

10 And another thing, I'm not convinced that this isn't all a publicity stunt.

11 I think Rob has a point there about those churches. They are all very socially conservative. I can't see any of them wanting to be called "liberal".I don't think any of those churches deserve to be called traitors or anti-American. Our country is the best partly because of our tolerance. If their religion calls for pacifism it doesn't bother me.

12 You know what the real irony here is. Right now, and even before the war, Christians were being murdered and driven out of their homes in Iraq. Thousands were forced to flee to other countries, but what was CPT doing about this? Nothing that I can see, but maybe Rob can enlighten me about this, and I don't mean this as criticism per se. In Indonesia, as we speak, Christians are under attack as we sit here. Little girls getting their heads chopped off by these Islamist scum, Christian women being thrown into jail for accidently exposing Muslim children to Christian symbols while at a birthday party, and thousands more beat and burned out of their homes. It seems to me that CPT could be of more use in Indonesia. Or perhaps Thailand and Malaysia, where Buddists are under constant attack by the Islamists, with Buddist monks having their heads chopped off to being burned alive and shot. Where is CPT? Perhaps they are there. For that matter, where is the US? The barbarity now being unleashed on the World by the Islamists is nothing new and has been done before. Anyone familiar with history should know this, and we had better do something drastic pretty quick. Or we ain't seen nothing yet. These people will use WMD if they can get it, because they hate us more than they love life.

13 Rob said: "As long as you choose to tar and feather all Muslims, pacifists, and those on the left with the same brush, your only available solution is to kill them all." Now you're getting the picture. "In other words, these aren't your normal leftists. In fact, they may not even be leftists at all." Yet they are still clueless morons, which in and of itself is sufficient evidence to warrant their removal from the gene pool.

14 Jesusland Joe, CPT is a small organization but, according to their website, they have maintained short- and long-term delegations in the following conflict zones: - Burundi & East Congo - Canada (generally focused on aboriginal land claims conflicts, which have a history of armed conflict) - Colombia - Hebron (Isreal/Palestine) - Iraq - USA (generally focused on urban violence, gang warfare, with some attention also paid to aboriginal conflicts) - UK (the focus in the UK is unclear. Surprisingly, while they maintain contacts in Northern Ireland, no formal delegation has ever been sent) They seem to maintain a policy of only going to conflict zones where they have been invited by local groups or grassroots organizations with whom they can partner. From the sounds of it, Indonesia, Thailand, and Malaysia are all places where perhaps CPT could build some bridges and play a role. If you know of any local organizations that are committed to developing peaceful responses to the problems you mention, I'd encourage you to put them in contact with CPT to see if there is some way that they can help.

15 Agent Brown says, "a push from the left and a shove from the right?"

16 Hmmm, according to Rob's data, the CPT seems to be drawn to communist/fascist insurgencies. This makes sense to me. I think they are "liberation theologists", who are basically soft communists, and who are trying to broker "peace" between communist/fascist murderers, and their victims; peace which seems to always favor the murderers, as in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, where "Christians" aided the terrorists who were murdering people, because the terrorists were communists. Not that I think they actively support terrorists and murderers, at least not in their minds, but they do seem to be playing the role of "useful idiots" very well. In any event, they are doing nothing to help anyone, and seem to only be hurting efforts if anything, so they should learn to keep their liberal noses out of other peoples' business, before they lose their heads.